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[Music]
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Pope Francis is caught in a virus
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consumerism at Christmas but what is
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wrong with a festive spending splurge
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for your friends and your family welcome
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to round table
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[Music]
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and a very warm welcome from me David
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Foster it's a refrain as familiar as a
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Christmas Carol excessive spending at
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this time of year has gone too far the
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true meaning of Christmas has been
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forgotten but is the tide of tinsel
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turning for many Christmas is a good
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time of year to go shopping Black Friday
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Cyber Monday and endless Christmas deals
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have got holiday buyer splurging in the
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shops typical households in the UK will
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spend more than 650 dollars on Christmas
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that's two and a half billion dollars
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more than a year ago in the u.s.
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households spent about fifteen hundred
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dollars during the Christmas holidays in
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2018 tis the season to be merry after
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all but bah humbug Pope Francis isn't
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happy about it
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warning once again that the mass
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spending is a virus that attacks the
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faith at the roots and goes against the
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true spirit of Christmas because to me
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smoke I only use so is Christmas
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consumerism a virus or vital to that
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festive feeling okay let's get talking
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about this with me at the roundtable
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father nothingness our executive
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director and founder of the awareness
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Foundation also Clare Bailey independent
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retail expert and founder of the future
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high street summit Michaela Nineveh is
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here a blogger and content creator and
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Nisa biunder a consumer psychologist and
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behavioral scientists we will come to
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the spiritual side of this in just a
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moment if we may but let's go to the
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human psychology in this is what we're
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seeing emotional blackmail I wouldn't
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say it's emotional blackmail
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because Christmas time is especially I
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guess a different ballgame the brands
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are trying to reach their consumers they
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are severe than ever and they are
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learning much more about the
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subconscious drives to reach their
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consumers so they have targets to me and
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they are trying to do a good job but
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they try to make you feel do they not
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disagree anybody if you wish they try to
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make you feel that if you don't do it
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you're bad yes so there is I mean that's
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a deeper psychological aspect actually
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because we as even though we want to
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feel of ourselves think of ourselves as
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individuals we are conforming social
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animals so we don't want to be the odd
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one out if our people are doing
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something we would like to do what they
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do and be one of them so most of the
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brands are using the nostalgia the
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family the warmth element around
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Christmas well that sounds to me like a
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kind of blackmail and they're also using
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mihaela and I will come to you in detail
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in just a moment they're using people
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like you who say this is fantastic we
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need this why don't you go and take a
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look at this they're using you in a
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sense to help sell their vision I
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promise I'll come back ok I want to get
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the priestly side of things yeah it's
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all gone to hell hasn't it so to speak
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well I'm not against humanism or
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secularism in any way of course people
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need to buy and sell and and this is but
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when it comes to Christmas it's very
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much culture and also other than the
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spiritual side of it when I grew up in
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Syria and until now if you are a beyond
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15 you don't get a present because in
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the Middle East
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the Christmas culture is that it's the
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presents are for for the the children
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and another thing in in the Middle East
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also the spiritual meaning of Christmas
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is still more or less intact that we we
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know what we are celebrating at least
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therefore you must rue the fact that
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here you are in a consumer-driven
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society not following the same
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principles that you saw and presumably
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loved when you were growing up in Syria
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and I put it again and they all laughed
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but it but he's gone wrong let's put it
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that way yes because because the church
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got it wrong
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the church accepted what the culture
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threw at her and the church couldn't
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reflect the true meaning of the love of
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God
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becoming human this is this is the magic
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of Christmas it's not what you get
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wrapped in a paper because many many
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relationships get threatened and under
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stress
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when all the all day wrapping got
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smashed and all the boxes are open and
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when you don't like the your gift and
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when you don't get on with your family
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around the table because you haven't
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seen them for a year you're saying it is
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not the marketing men it is not the
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people who want to cover their bottom
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line make the profits put out the glossy
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advert yes it's people with clerical
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collars on like you like me cause this I
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mean we didn't cause it but we did not
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we do not face up yeah you didn't stand
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up to it and said this is not what
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Christmas is about and and how many
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families do we have in the West around
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the table of food in Christmas and all
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the all the presents and all the chats
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and all this how many people know
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exactly what Christmas is about well you
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could be you could list number the
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deadly sins in that didn't you average
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gluttony it's not that's what we're
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saying exactly but it is exactly about
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the opposite God loves the world so that
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he came to us so what more magic it's
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about him not us a latke later on how
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you gonna change that I promise I will
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come to you but I think we need to hear
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from Claire first of all about how
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Christmas has changed has it become more
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vulgar in terms of consumerism
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I absolutely believe so this year we're
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forecast to spend 800 pounds each on
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stuff that arguably a lot of us might
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not need or want and when we've got
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people turning to food banks in droves
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and other issues within our sort of
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social and economic backdrop I think
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that people do feel under enormous
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pressure to spend having said that if
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you look at some of the major retail
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brands TV advertising campaigns this
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year they are referring back to some of
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the more spiritual values of Christmas
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and they make you cringe what they're
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doing is they're saying by the way we're
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not out there to make you spend we're
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out there because we care about you
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we're out there because we care about
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poor people the hunk it's even
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absolutely they do try to heart back to
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some of the traditional values and an
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influence people by saying we are nice
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companies to buy from
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nice companies to deal with but then we
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have this other angle only very recently
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a report came out from I believe party
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card stating that we were moving away
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from too much stuff and wrapped up
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presents and there's likely to be a one
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hundred and fifty five percent increase
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in the sale of things like experience
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vouchers going out and doing things
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together making memories much more about
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the family and the time with the people
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that you love and much less about
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necessarily owning possessions so that
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eight hundred pounds per person spend
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that we're allegedly going to be
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spending is swinging away from product
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and more towards making memories which i
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think is a positive ok so this is part
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of the change we might come to in just a
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moment you may have guessed mihaela that
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I've been building you up to be a bit of
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the villain in this but in the nicest
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possible sense because you represent to
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some degree the consumerism that we're
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talking about you go out you get given
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clothes makeup holidays I'm guessing
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here but you you're not denying it and
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what is wrong with it if you like it but
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you then write about it and encourage
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people to go out and spend I said vulgar
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what do you think I wouldn't say I
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encourage people to spend the idea
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behind what I do is to inform people and
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tell them that those are experiences
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that they can be part of if they want to
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like this raincoat is part of an
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experience you can be part of if you go
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by I'm talking about more like travel
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and to be judge jury and executioner and
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you have a paid partnership with a
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leading British clothing company so it
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is about helping them to sell their
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products absolutely yeah of course but
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it's also about helping people who go to
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work every day and they don't know what
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they wear it's about helping them you
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know make their style choices for the
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day and inform them about what's trendy
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because everyone wants to look good
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that's what that's YP
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do you accept people are under pressure
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then I don't necessarily getting
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pressure from you but they are under
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pressure to conform to look good to feel
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included and you can launch your defense
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I mean everyone's exposed to that I'm
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exposed to it myself but I personally
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have chosen to be wise about spending
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about the products that I'm um so when I
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get approached to be given a product I
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don't accept everything that I'm
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approached for I accept the things that
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I would that I believe in but like
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everyone can make the decision there's
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nobody's under pressure to yeah you know
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give in to the temptation and yet you
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talk about three pillars to all of this
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don't you you talk about the scarcity
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side of things you talk about what's the
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other one
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the hedonic treadmill on a treadmill and
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then the ego tell us if you can what
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that mean I think the pressure is
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cognitive because there is a
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multi-sensory I suppose I lost me
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already what do you mean everything the
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multi-sensory getting bombarded yes we
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are bombarded so whether it's the
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Christmas lights or the ads or things we
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see around us from from the society
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around us as well as the brands that is
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creating a bit of a like a treadmill
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effect the hedonic treadmill the more
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you buy the more you add to yourself the
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more you I suppose support your a sense
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of self and your identity and everything
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we buy we own or we give it is a mirror
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of everything we are so of course that
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the hedonic treadmill it becomes this
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never-ending cycle of the retail therapy
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as as well we constantly keep on trying
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to get on top of that happy moments when
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we give or when we receive or play a
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part in this in this game the ego
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depletion side of it is when we almost
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lose our sense of self in this I suppose
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in this push to gain more buy more
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consume more research lasts more every
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year we compare ourselves to the year
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before and there is an increase in 6%
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there is decrease in 1% and how much
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more I feel like it's a wee
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create like a like a a wormhole like a
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black hole that sucks us into it and
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there is no no saving out of it every
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year we have to to buy more to to have
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the the economy grow and and we create
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we we make this black hole grow bigger
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and bigger and the vacuum in me grows
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bigger and bigger because the more I buy
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the more I want and the more I want the
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more I buy circle but I think this trend
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now of moving away from product and
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looking at sustainability and people are
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talking so much more about the global
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impact of consumerism certainly younger
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people in the social savvy generation my
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15 year old daughter is a case in point
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they actually talk openly about buying
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less or buying less from non sustainable
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sources or with more ethical product
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base to swing away from heavy
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consumption of meat it's a great
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increased veganism shows I think people
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are beginning to recognize this vacuum
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that you talk about under pushing back
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and say personal point of view 15 you
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say she is yes and if you decided to
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give her a voucher for I did a lovely
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day out of the spa or a book of vegan
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recipes because that was good for the
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rest of the world which do you think
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she'd prefer to be honestly my daughter
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neither but we're about a family that
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have push back against consumerism for a
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long time yeah we have never bought
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Christmas presents we do something
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together so we are part of that growing
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trend who represent that growth in
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creating memories and doing nice things
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and we've even talked about volunteering
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in food banks and old people's homes
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instead of having our own Christmas
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dinner
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so I'm probably not representative or
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maybe our end of the curve because I
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also have to support my clients who are
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the major retailers and brands who as
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PLC companies have a duty to their
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employees their customers and more
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importantly their shareholders - do you
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live a shareholder value this is where I
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can bring you back in again um it isn't
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doesn't have to be just one or the other
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does he know I can perhaps be both yeah
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definitely
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it can definitely be both and then what
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do you lose you have to offer something
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something an alternative definitely
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that's what what Claire is saying like
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what families do now I have a lot of
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colleagues at work who do that they
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let's say they've limited their
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Christmas presents to one per person and
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they've decided to spend more family
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time together instead of buying each
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other gifts I also have families
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including those in my family we have
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decided to instead of exchanging gifts
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to put the money towards a family
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experience and go away together so
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instead of spending money on things that
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you know we're just and is this a
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personal feeling as well that you use
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you feel the perhaps there's too much
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consumerism out and we need to look in
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towards ourselves does that go against
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what you're I don't have public persona
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I always talk about it openly and always
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say to my audience that it's of course
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it's a personal choice and I believe in
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certain products I believe in in certain
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trends but I'm always like very
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conscious about you know not not about
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like being material all the time into
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what we're talking about
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number one retailers used to pump out
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mass advertising campaigns billboard
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shouty marketing and we accepted it up
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until around ten years ago and then the
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rise of peer-to-peer marketing
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communications influences where instead
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of taking a corporate message we listen
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to someone we can identify with someone
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like me
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so that is what your audience are
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looking for someone that they can trust
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a little more than proper a faceless
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corporate to help them make the wise
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decisions whilst not being too Sheltie
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but perhaps that's a corn isn't it
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because what the companies are doing
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they're hiding behind somebody who has
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the kind of softer less corporate face
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to send an authenticity well perhaps
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perhaps
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but then also think about why are they
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fighting so hard to market themselves is
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it because we are now beginning to see a
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shift away from consumerism that we are
00:16:02
both talking about representing that
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you're talking about that vacuum and in
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a way if spending is going away from
00:16:08
product and towards experiences and
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family days out retailers then have to
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go even harder on their advertising and
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the discounts and the deals and the
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promotions to get a retracting share of
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Wallace wanted to say so are all of you
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who you are presuming something which is
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not there which is family what family
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are we talking about in the West family
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is broken and and many families they
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don't see each other unless they go to
00:16:40
wedding or funeral and and sometimes
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sometimes in around Christmas but you're
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you're assuming a lot but our
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relationships in the West suffer we need
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we need to rebuild around Christmas
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around Christmas I wanted to ask dad it
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should be we're talking here about
00:17:02
whether the companies themselves are
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perhaps being duplicitous but it been in
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actually sort of making statements that
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we want to do more family time we'd like
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to come plant trees together on
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Christmas Day our peep is this hot air
00:17:14
do you think is it peer pressure like
00:17:16
the emperor's new clothes you've got to
00:17:18
say they're wonderful even though he's
00:17:19
not wearing anything because everybody
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else is saying yes oh I will play the
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devil's advocate here as long as
00:17:25
something comes from the brands or the
00:17:27
marketers and they will always have to
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show the scarcity principle they will
00:17:31
always market something whether it's an
00:17:33
experience or a product or a gift
00:17:35
exclusive something it doesn't matter
00:17:38
what it is they will always play on well
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this is especially from us to you and
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then people regardless of what the item
00:17:45
is people will go for it so I think the
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problem is what we associate value with
00:17:51
so if we care about someone the value we
00:17:54
associate with ourselves with the
00:17:56
product and that person I think that's
00:17:58
where the conundrum is we we think okay
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if we if I care about you I need to give
00:18:04
you something and that's how I show
00:18:06
your value to me something material it
00:18:10
doesn't have observed what I was that's
00:18:13
what I wanted to say that you know it
00:18:16
there is that gratification when you
00:18:19
give something to someone and that's
00:18:21
what these brands are trying to play on
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like that's what they want to that's how
00:18:25
they're trying to sell their product but
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as people as consumers we don't have to
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buy into it we can give something and
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get that in that gratification from
00:18:34
giving something but it doesn't have to
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easy to offend somebody at this time of
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year by saying actually I don't want you
00:18:44
to buy something for me I'd rather you
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gave the money to a worthwhile cause or
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perhaps we went out and had dinner
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together it's easy to get the wrong
00:18:53
message out and that EMU people with
00:18:56
problems coming to you yeah double-edge
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yeah because experiences can be
00:19:01
wonderful also but oh but I want
00:19:03
something else so reading the other
00:19:06
person and trying to satisfy that
00:19:09
instead of focusing on the relationship
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I mean Christmas is all about
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relationships data which should be the
00:19:18
most difficult time for relationships
00:19:19
because we suddenly remember the other
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so well for example I don't remember
00:19:26
Claire as my friend oh my goodness
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a month before Christmas I remember I
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should get her something but throughout
00:19:34
the year if I remember Claire and I sent
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her a card or a telephone call or a text
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or we go out for dinner I don't have to
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panic a month before Christmas what I
00:19:46
should get for her so Christmas is like
00:19:49
a plaster over over a wound
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so Oh Christmas is here I don't know
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what I haven't seen David for ages I
00:19:58
will buy him something so just you tear
00:20:01
a leather boots
00:20:03
so it's all all you know passion it's
00:20:07
Christmas is patching patching I want to
00:20:11
ask about different experiences in
00:20:12
different countries because this is
00:20:13
fascinating to me grew up in Turkey yes
00:20:16
grew up in Bulgaria we will get your
00:20:18
personal experiences in just a moment
00:20:20
we were talking from a British point of
00:20:22
view which is also perhaps an American
00:20:24
point of view is it in the wealthiest
00:20:26
countries that we see the biggest
00:20:28
excesses when it comes to spending I
00:20:30
would seem obvious difficult one because
00:20:33
there is such a multicultural
00:20:35
environment in the UK that you will see
00:20:38
all manner of different behaviors
00:20:40
perhaps when I was growing up yes that
00:20:43
could be true so if you look back to 60s
00:20:46
70s 80s it was a very different time of
00:20:48
year Christmas was when everybody as you
00:20:51
described came together families put on
00:20:53
huge meals you could have 20 people
00:20:55
around a table I think fewer and fewer
00:20:57
people are doing that and in a way again
00:21:00
that is probably one of the reasons why
00:21:02
the retailer's are fighting so hard in
00:21:05
their advertising campaigns to present
00:21:07
this image particularly the grocery of
00:21:09
these huge spreads of food and party
00:21:12
food and people being together when in
00:21:14
reality more and more people are
00:21:16
spending Christmas alone or in very
00:21:18
small groups and they aren't getting
00:21:20
better it's not a Christian holiday
00:21:21
anymore it's it's a it's a it's emptier
00:21:25
wallets holiday it's a battle of
00:21:27
essentially by law and yes I think for
00:21:31
those people who are practicing
00:21:32
Christians it's still very much a
00:21:34
Christian holiday a number of my
00:21:35
neighbours will make an effort to go to
00:21:37
church but that is in the minority in my
00:21:40
community and I would say my community
00:21:43
is not representative for the most UK
00:21:44
because I live in a rural community
00:21:46
which there is still a lot more of the
00:21:48
traditional values in city centres
00:21:50
things are very difficult I'm gonna give
00:21:52
you the last word on this one in just a
00:21:53
moment 19 but let's talk about Christmas
00:21:55
in Turkey when you were growing up and
00:21:57
now how much do you think has changed I
00:22:01
would say it hasn't changed that much
00:22:04
because in the 80s and early 90s it was
00:22:08
still a gifting time of gifting which is
00:22:10
interesting because the majority of fish
00:22:13
wellyes across the face it is agnostic
00:22:15
in the sense that you still have
00:22:17
Christmas trees everywhere in Turkey and
00:22:19
the decorations but they use it for New
00:22:21
Year's Eve so it's almost like you're
00:22:24
finishing the year wild on you you know
00:22:27
another year fast here's a gift to
00:22:29
celebrate holiday there yeah so it is an
00:22:32
interesting concept
00:22:34
it has changed in the sense that there
00:22:35
are now more decorations on the streets
00:22:37
there is Santa and you know stuff like
00:22:40
that everywhere hey what about Bulgaria
00:22:45
when you were growing up when I was
00:22:47
growing up Christmas was all about
00:22:49
family and that's how I remember
00:22:51
Christmas and that's how I want to
00:22:53
remember it
00:22:53
I think yeah I think so it has moved on
00:22:57
definitely I wish it was what it what it
00:23:00
used to be like just family's all
00:23:02
together gathering for Christmas but
00:23:04
unfortunately I don't live there anymore
00:23:07
I can't travel about come for Christmas
00:23:08
because the tickets are so expensive so
00:23:11
I have to spend like half of my family's
00:23:13
in the UK and the other half is in
00:23:14
Bulgaria so we don't have we don't get
00:23:17
to spend our Christmas together but we
00:23:18
do celebrate later on like at the
00:23:20
beginning of the year and we do get
00:23:22
together just not on Christmas Nadine
00:23:24
here we are talking about Christmas and
00:23:27
consumerism of course you are from Syria
00:23:29
yes how deprived the people are there
00:23:32
and goodness gracious how many Christmas
00:23:33
times they they've had in this conflict
00:23:36
we must remember them but equally we
00:23:39
must address the question we we have at
00:23:41
this table and and you as a father
00:23:43
figure in more ways than one because you
00:23:45
are a father in the church tell us how
00:23:48
to sort this one out
00:23:49
it's not about sorting it out it's about
00:23:52
shifting the gravity dismantling those
00:23:58
black holes in that we should do this we
00:24:02
must do that and readjustment we are we
00:24:08
are relational beings
00:24:09
so whether Bulgaria or Turkey or Syria
00:24:12
or Britain we all have our nostalgia of
00:24:16
our memories about Christmas and the
00:24:18
best memories are about relationships
00:24:21
and the whole Christmas is about God's
00:24:24
relationship with with us and it's it's
00:24:26
about relationship why don't we shift
00:24:29
the gravity of Christmas from what I'm
00:24:34
going to buy what am I going to do for
00:24:38
others and bring back the meaning of
00:24:42
Christmas is about relationship it's not
00:24:44
like you can jettison one for the other
00:24:47
piñon it is that you have to have a
00:24:49
symbiotic relationship Claire I think
00:24:51
you should 800 million and it's probably
00:24:52
probably going to go up they have to
00:24:55
live side by side then the Hellenistic
00:24:58
world in a spiritual world I'm not
00:25:00
saying at all don't buy and and this is
00:25:03
Hayden's and this is rubbish
00:25:05
we all get a joy out of a gesture out of
00:25:10
something nice but but don't forget you
00:25:14
your relationships all the year and
00:25:16
remember them only a month before
00:25:19
Christmas and you rush to to sort them
00:25:22
out keep the focus that you have a
00:25:26
family you have friends you have people
00:25:29
who you love and they love you don't
00:25:31
forget them all year and remember them
00:25:33
on Christmas I wish we had more time
00:25:35
I've been told we gonna shut up even
00:25:36
though it's Christmas I can give you
00:25:38
nothing more happy Christmas each and
00:25:42
every one of you and to you out there
00:25:44
whatever your faith whatever you believe
00:25:46
I hope you have a wonderful time me
00:25:48
David Foster from the round table team
00:25:50
goodbye for now
00:25:52
[Music]
00:25:56
you
00:26:02
[Music]
00:26:11
you
