Point of No Return in Middle East & Ukraine - John Mearsheimer, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen

01:14:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OATwSZB2z4

Zusammenfassung

TLDRIn diesem ausführlichen Gespräch analysieren die Experten Glenn De, Alexander Mur und John Mimer die sich zuspitzenden Konflikte sowohl im Nahen Osten als auch in der Ukraine. Sie betrachten insbesondere die Gefahr einer Eskalation, die durch überstürzte militärische Manöver und die damit verbundene Koalitionsbildung im Westen ausgelöst werden könnte. In der Ukraine, so wird diskutiert, agiert die ukrainische Regierung mit riskanten militärischen Offensiven, die das Land überfordern und letztlich den Konflikt zugunsten Russlands entscheiden könnten. Mur stellt fest, dass die Offensive im Kers-Gebiet kaum strategischen Vorteil bietet und die Ukraine in eine schwächere Position manövriert. Für Israel wiederum stellt die unnachgiebige Haltung gegenüber den Nachbarländern ein langfristiges Risiko dar, da keine nachhaltigen militärischen Erfolge erkennbar sind und die Gefahr einer weiteren Eskalation mit Iran und anderen Akteuren der Region besteht. Mimer kritisiert, dass im Westen, sowohl bei der Ukraine- als auch bei der Israel-Politik, oft eine tiefere strategische Analyse fehlt und dass die aktuellen Vorgehensweisen nicht zu einem klaren Sieg oder einer langfristigen Stabilität führen können. Insgesamt kommen die Diskussionsteilnehmer zu dem Schluss, dass die westlichen Verbündeten keine erfolgreichen Strategien vorweisen, was zu einer längeren Fortdauer der Konflikte führen könnte. Das Gespräch endet mit der Erkenntnis, dass sowohl für die Ukraine als auch für Israel strategische Neuausrichtungen notwendig wären, um die eskalierten Konflikte zu deeskalieren und politischen Lösungen Platz zu machen.

Mitbringsel

  • 🌍 Eskalationen im Nahen Osten und Ukraine werfen strategische Fragen auf.
  • ⚔️ Die ukrainische Offensive im Kers führt zu erhöhter Verwundbarkeit.
  • 🇮🇱 Israels aktuelle Militärpolitik birgt langfristige Risiken.
  • 🔍 Kritische Stimmen fordern eine tiefere Analyse westlicher Strategien.
  • 🤔 Die Gefahr eines direkten Russland-NATO-Konflikts wächst.
  • 🛡️ Viele aktuelle Konflikte fehlen klare Ziele und Exit-Strategien.
  • 🪖 Beide Gesetze könnten langfristig nicht zu einem Sieg führen.
  • 🗝️ Notwendig sind strategische Umorientierungen für nachhaltige Lösungen.
  • 💡 Erkennen der Sicherheitsinteressen beider Konfliktparteien ist entscheidend.
  • ⏳ Die jetzigen Maßnahmen könnten die Konflikte verlängern.

Zeitleiste

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Die Eskalationen im Nahen Osten und in der Ukraine gehen weiter. Israel und Hisbollah tauschen Raketen aus, während der Ukraine-Konflikt sich zu einem Russland-NATO-Krieg ausweitet. Ein weniger vorhersehbarer Schritt war die Invasion der ukrainischen Region Kers durch die Ukraine mit NATO-Unterstützung. Dies scheint kurzfristig den ukrainischen Moral zu steigern, aber langfristig fehlen nachvollziehbare strategische Ziele. Die westlichen Medien berichten begeistert von einem Erfolg, obwohl die militärische Logik stark bezweifelt wird.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Die Invasion von Kers durch die Ukraine wird als ein großer Fehler angesehen, der sie militärisch überstrapaziert. Die Ukrainischen Streitkräfte sind zu dünn aufgestellt und leiden unter Nachschubproblemen. Für die ukrainische Führung könnte es ein Versuch sein, mehr westliche Unterstützung zu erlangen, aber militärisch ergibt die Offensive wenig Sinn. Die Gefahr einer erhöhten Verlustrate bei gleichzeitigem Mangel an strategischen Vorteilen ist hoch.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Der Krieg zwischen der Ukraine und Russland wird als Stellungskrieg beschrieben, bei dem die Verlustquote entscheidend ist. Die Ukraine hat sich in eine schwierige Lage gebracht, indem sie, geschwächt an der Ostfront, eine neue Offensive startet. Diese strategische Entscheidung wird die ukrainischen Verluste erhöhen, da die Offensive gegen eine überlegene russische Luftmacht ungeschützt stattfindet. Der russische Vorteil in der Luft führt zu hohen ukrainischen Verlusten, während die russischen Verluste durch die geringe Präsenz in der Gegend minimal sind.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Die Invasion der russischen Gegend durch die Ukraine gefährdet ihre eigene Kriegsführung und hat das Risiko von mehr Verlusten erhöht. Die russische Seite hat strategisch wichtige Gebiete wie Bakhmut ohne großen Widerstand eingenommen, während die Ukraine kurzsichtige Risiken eingeht. Die Möglichkeit eines Rückzugs auf ukrainischer Seite wird diskutiert, jedoch scheint Imagepflege für die Ukraine eine höhere Priorität zu haben, was trotz der militärischen Fehlentscheidungen eine Rücknahme erschwert.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Das ukrainische Engagement in Kers könnte den Kriegsverlust beschleunigen, und die Ukraine könnte gewinnen, indem sie strategisch defensive Linien hält. Die Invasion wird als impulsive Entscheidung beschrieben, die keine nachhaltigen militärischen Vorteile bringt. Die ukrainischen Entscheider agieren unter dem Druck der öffentlichen Meinung und westlicher Erwartungen, was zu einer Eskalation ohne klaren Nutzen führt.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Bedenkliche Gebiete gegen Russland einnehmen, um westliches Interesse und Unterstützung zu wecken, könnte kurzfristig erfolgreich sein, hat aber langfristig verheerende Konsequenzen für die Ukraine. Diese taktischen Siege durch Gebietserweiterungen überschatten das belastende Problem der Truppenverluste und des Mangels an nachhaltiger Strategie. Die Verwundbarkeit der Ukraine nimmt mit jedem derartigen Vorstoß zu.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Es entsteht der Eindruck, dass die westliche Strategie nicht langfristig durchdacht ist, insbesondere bei der Unterstützung der Ukraine. Die westliche Begeisterung für Gebietserfolge blockiert die kritische Auseinandersetzung mit den realen Kriegszielen und langfristigen Folgen. Es wird kritisiert, dass harte diplomatische und militärische Lösungen erforderlich wären, anstatt naiver Euphorie über taktische Gewinne.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Das westliche Verständnis für den Krieg wird als oberflächlich kritisiert, und es fehlt eine fundierte militärische Strategie. Die Expertenmeinungen weichen oft von der Realität ab, mit unrealistischen Siegesvorstellungen, welche die Komplexität des Konflikts ignorieren. Der Mangel an strategischem Verständnis könnte zu einem fortgesetzten Konflikt führen, obwohl das Ergebnis absehbar negativ sein könnte.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Ähnlich kritisch wird die pro-israelische Lobby in den USA betrachtet, die Israel zwangsläufig Unterstützung bietet, selbst wenn dies israelische Interessen langfristig verletzen könnte. Eine unreflektierte Unterstützungspolitik kann leicht in Eskalationen münden, die weder Israel noch den USA dienlich sind.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Der Konflikt im Nahen Osten wird als nachhaltig beschrieben, mit Israel, das in einen schwierigen militärischen Krieg verwickelt ist, ohne klare Siegchancen. Die israelische Fixierung auf militärische Lösungen verweigert das Erkennen von Verhandlungsmöglichkeiten, was das Risiko eines größeren Krieges erhöht.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:00

    Die militärische Lage Israels hat sich über die Jahre verschärft, mit schwierigeren Herausforderungen und asymmetrischen Bedrohungen, die nur schwer zu kontrollieren sind. Die technologische Überlegenheit kann durch regionale Machtzentren und Nadelstiche ausgehebelt werden, was Israel in eine Verteidigungshaltung zwingt without klare Progression.

  • 00:55:00 - 01:00:00

    Russland und China könnten sich indirekt in den Nahostkonflikt einmischen, indem sie die von Israel angegriffenen Länder unterstützen. Das könnte die Situation weiter destabilisieren und zu einer breiteren, länger andauernden Konfrontation führen.

  • 01:00:00 - 01:05:00

    Der Westen sollte vorsichtig sein, um nicht in einen Krieg im Nahen Osten hineingezogen zu werden, der durch die Eskalationspolitik Israels, aber auch durch das Versagen westlicher Diplomatie ausgelöst werden könnte. Russland und China könnten in einem solchen Szenario eine alternative Unterstützung bieten, was die Komplexität weiter erhöht.

  • 01:05:00 - 01:14:56

    Die stärkste Kritik betrifft die übermäßige Abhängigkeit des Westens von militärischen Lösungen und einer Politik der Konfrontation, die die Chance auf ausgeglichene Diplomatie mindert. Eine rhetorische Strategie der Dämonisierung von Gegnern erschwert Friedenslösungen weiter.

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Häufig gestellte Fragen

  • Worüber diskutieren die Gesprächspartner in dem Video?

    Die Gesprächspartner diskutieren die zunehmenden Spannungen im Nahen Osten und in der Ukraine, wobei der Fokus auf den militärischen und politischen Implikationen liegt.

  • Was sind die Hauptthemen des Videos?

    Die Hauptpunkte sind die drohende Eskalation in der Ukraine und dem Nahen Osten sowie die westliche Unterstützung in diesen Konflikten.

  • Welche Risiken werden für die Ukraine besprochen?

    Es wird diskutiert, dass die Ukraine durch überstürzte militärische Aktionen ihre eigene Lage verschlechtert und möglicherweise den Zusammenbruch ihres Militärs herbeiführt.

  • Welche Risiken sehen die Sprecher für Israel?

    Die Diskussionsteilnehmer meinen, dass Israel durch militärische Überreaktionen seine strategische Position langfristig schwächt.

  • Unterstützen die Diskussionsteilnehmer die westliche Politik in Konflikten?

    Nein, sie kritisieren die westliche Politik als unzureichend und führen aus, dass durch diese das Eskalationspotential nicht beseitigt wird.

  • Was kritisiert John Mimer an der westlichen Herangehensweise?

    John Mimer kritisiert das Fehlen einer klaren Strategie und Analysen durch westliche Militärführer.

  • Wie sehen die Diskussionsteilnehmer die Gefahr eines direkten Russland-NATO-Konflikts?

    Sie sehen das Risiko eines direkten Krieges zwischen Russland und der NATO als zunehmend wahrscheinlich an.

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Untertitel
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Automatisches Blättern:
  • 00:00:00
    hi everyone Glenn De here and I'm joined
  • 00:00:02
    today by Alexander Mur and John mimer
  • 00:00:07
    and as predicted uh escalations continue
  • 00:00:10
    in both the Middle East and Ukraine and
  • 00:00:13
    also as predicted Israel and Hezbollah
  • 00:00:15
    has begun ping each other now with
  • 00:00:17
    missiles and drones and um it appears
  • 00:00:20
    they might have been taking a step back
  • 00:00:22
    now at the brink of a wider Regional War
  • 00:00:25
    however I suspect this might be
  • 00:00:27
    temporary however this is something of
  • 00:00:29
    course I would like to get your opinion
  • 00:00:30
    on and uh meanwhile in Ukraine the
  • 00:00:33
    escalation has also predictably
  • 00:00:35
    continued as it seems we keep moving
  • 00:00:38
    towards a direct Russia NATO War at
  • 00:00:40
    least that's how I see it less
  • 00:00:42
    predictable however was this uh type of
  • 00:00:45
    escalation as nobody I think predicted
  • 00:00:47
    Ukraine with uh seemingly the support of
  • 00:00:50
    NATO would uh invade Russia that is the
  • 00:00:54
    kers region so I thought that perhaps we
  • 00:00:56
    should start with the Ukraine war
  • 00:00:58
    because uh yeah key reason for why no
  • 00:01:00
    one predicted the invasion of K is that
  • 00:01:04
    well at least to me it does make much
  • 00:01:06
    sense I guess uh and as we saw from
  • 00:01:09
    Western Ukrainian and Russian observers
  • 00:01:11
    they all seem to recognize it made no
  • 00:01:13
    sense but again it boosted morale among
  • 00:01:17
    the ukrainians and it allegedly
  • 00:01:19
    humiliated Putin as well Western media
  • 00:01:22
    keeps telling us and they seem to be
  • 00:01:24
    very excited about uh so suddenly
  • 00:01:26
    overnight The Narrative seemed to be
  • 00:01:28
    changed and this was suddenly a great
  • 00:01:30
    success and uh yeah Putin was on his
  • 00:01:34
    back foot but anyways I thought this is
  • 00:01:37
    a good topic to begin with how how would
  • 00:01:40
    you to see the issue of uh The kurur
  • 00:01:43
    Invasion is this a massive mistake or a
  • 00:01:47
    great success uh how should we read the
  • 00:01:50
    situation I usually start but this time
  • 00:01:53
    I'll defer to Alexander come in behind
  • 00:01:56
    him well I think the way to describe C
  • 00:01:59
    is is a massive gamble which probably
  • 00:02:03
    almost certainly will not pay off unless
  • 00:02:08
    the ukrainians can somehow wangle out of
  • 00:02:10
    it a a bigger Western escalation which
  • 00:02:14
    takes us back to the point that you were
  • 00:02:16
    making um at the start of the program
  • 00:02:18
    Glenn that that's my own view I mean
  • 00:02:20
    militarily now I'm not a military person
  • 00:02:22
    as I constantly say but I do follow the
  • 00:02:25
    war very closely and an exhausting thing
  • 00:02:28
    it is but
  • 00:02:30
    militarily to me at least it makes
  • 00:02:33
    absolutely no sense at all the
  • 00:02:34
    ukrainians massively overextended
  • 00:02:37
    overstretched they're finding it very
  • 00:02:39
    difficult now to hold even the most
  • 00:02:42
    important locations their Logistics are
  • 00:02:45
    starting to break down there's reports
  • 00:02:48
    that thousands of people are deserting
  • 00:02:50
    the desertion rate apparently has risen
  • 00:02:52
    um there there they're losing their
  • 00:02:55
    positions and yet instead of
  • 00:02:58
    consolidating
  • 00:03:00
    and trying to defend what can be
  • 00:03:03
    defended they attacked in cusk and what
  • 00:03:07
    were they trying to achieve well it's
  • 00:03:10
    difficult to say um I when I looked at
  • 00:03:13
    this it looked to me as if there's only
  • 00:03:15
    one thing that they could go for which
  • 00:03:17
    is the nuclear power station there the
  • 00:03:20
    Russian authorities have essentially
  • 00:03:23
    said the same thing it was a very very
  • 00:03:28
    um unlike thing to capture they're still
  • 00:03:32
    there they didn't capture it but they're
  • 00:03:34
    still there and it looks as if they're
  • 00:03:36
    very very overe extended so if that's
  • 00:03:39
    right then it doesn't make much military
  • 00:03:42
    sense it was a gamble that for the
  • 00:03:44
    moment at least hasn't worked but it
  • 00:03:47
    might be something which they still
  • 00:03:49
    think they can leverage to get somebody
  • 00:03:52
    in the west some the you know the west
  • 00:03:54
    and governments ultimately the United
  • 00:03:57
    States to come to their rescue to say
  • 00:04:00
    you know that we we're in cusk we we've
  • 00:04:02
    achieved all of this we're still
  • 00:04:04
    fighting we still got energy we're still
  • 00:04:07
    able to hit the Russians in places that
  • 00:04:09
    matter all we need is for you to come
  • 00:04:12
    and support us even more give us
  • 00:04:14
    permission to use your missiles to
  • 00:04:16
    strike deeper inside Russia and somehow
  • 00:04:20
    in some way never fully explained that's
  • 00:04:22
    all going to come right that that's what
  • 00:04:25
    it looks like to
  • 00:04:27
    me I uh don't disagree with that but
  • 00:04:31
    want to come at it from a different
  • 00:04:33
    angle I think it was crazy for the
  • 00:04:37
    ukrainians to invade the kers region and
  • 00:04:41
    I think if anything it's going to speed
  • 00:04:43
    up their
  • 00:04:44
    defeat and as Glenn intimated at the
  • 00:04:47
    beginning of his comments probably the
  • 00:04:50
    reason that the Russians were surprised
  • 00:04:53
    is that they didn't think the ukrainians
  • 00:04:55
    would be foolish enough to try to launch
  • 00:04:57
    this offensive now the question is why
  • 00:05:00
    am I saying this this is a good
  • 00:05:02
    oldfashioned war of attration you know
  • 00:05:04
    this is Joe Frasier and Muhammad Ali
  • 00:05:07
    standing toe-to-toe you know trying to
  • 00:05:09
    beat The Living Daylights out of each
  • 00:05:11
    other uh to put it in slightly different
  • 00:05:13
    terms here we have two armies that are
  • 00:05:15
    trying to bleed each other white uh to
  • 00:05:18
    get one uh to raise up its hands and
  • 00:05:21
    quit before the other does uh and in a
  • 00:05:25
    war of attrition like this what really
  • 00:05:27
    matters is the casualty Exchange
  • 00:05:30
    ratio and if you look at what the
  • 00:05:33
    ukrainians did they were in a situation
  • 00:05:36
    where they were losing on the Eastern
  • 00:05:39
    Front there's just no question about
  • 00:05:41
    that and the casualty exchange ratio on
  • 00:05:44
    the Eastern Front clearly favored the
  • 00:05:47
    Russians so what the ukrainians did is
  • 00:05:50
    they weakened their forces on the
  • 00:05:52
    Eastern front uh cobbled together a
  • 00:05:56
    strike force that then went into Ukraine
  • 00:05:59
    and the first question that pops into my
  • 00:06:01
    brain when something like this happens
  • 00:06:04
    is what happens to the casualty exchange
  • 00:06:06
    ratio on the Eastern front and what is
  • 00:06:08
    the casualty exchange ratio going to
  • 00:06:11
    look like in the kers region well if you
  • 00:06:14
    weaken your forces on the Eastern Front
  • 00:06:17
    which of course the ukrainians do and
  • 00:06:20
    the Russians do not that means that the
  • 00:06:23
    casualty exchange ratio is going to
  • 00:06:26
    shift even further towards the Russians
  • 00:06:29
    because your forces are weakened they're
  • 00:06:31
    spread out more thinly and the Russians
  • 00:06:33
    are in a better position uh to attack
  • 00:06:37
    Ukrainian positions and of course that
  • 00:06:39
    is what's
  • 00:06:40
    happening then look at what's happening
  • 00:06:43
    in the KK region what's happening is
  • 00:06:46
    very simple the ukrainians are taking
  • 00:06:49
    the offensive and when you take the
  • 00:06:52
    offensive in Modern Warfare especially
  • 00:06:55
    in a war of attrition that means you get
  • 00:06:57
    out of your holes you get out of your
  • 00:06:59
    trenches and you start moving across
  • 00:07:02
    open territory that means you're exposed
  • 00:07:06
    to the adversary now you may be able to
  • 00:07:10
    get away with that if you have air cover
  • 00:07:13
    but the ukrainians do not have air cover
  • 00:07:16
    in fact the Russians command the skies
  • 00:07:19
    and furthermore they have a gazillion
  • 00:07:21
    drones up there so you have these
  • 00:07:24
    Ukrainian forces they're out on out in
  • 00:07:26
    the open on the move and are providing a
  • 00:07:31
    rich Target set for the Russians and the
  • 00:07:35
    Russians of course who get caught with
  • 00:07:37
    their pants down there's no question
  • 00:07:39
    about that what they do is they bring in
  • 00:07:41
    lots of drones they bring in lots of Tac
  • 00:07:44
    Air and they bring in lots of artillery
  • 00:07:47
    and they start pounding those Ukrainian
  • 00:07:50
    forces that are out in the open and
  • 00:07:52
    unsurprisingly there have been many
  • 00:07:55
    thousands of Ukrainian casualties and
  • 00:07:58
    they've lost an enormous
  • 00:08:00
    number of armored vehicles and uh one
  • 00:08:04
    analyst estimates that they've been
  • 00:08:06
    losing two times as many armored
  • 00:08:08
    vehicles per day in the K offensive than
  • 00:08:11
    they were normally losing uh on the
  • 00:08:14
    Eastern Front this is really quite
  • 00:08:16
    shocking at first glance but once you
  • 00:08:18
    think about it's not that shocking
  • 00:08:20
    because they're now out in the open you
  • 00:08:23
    want to remember the ukrainians are not
  • 00:08:25
    out in the open uh on the Eastern Front
  • 00:08:29
    they're again they're fighting from you
  • 00:08:31
    know uh well fortified positions for the
  • 00:08:34
    most part this is no longer the case
  • 00:08:36
    when you're on the offensive so the
  • 00:08:38
    ukrainians are suffering greatly in
  • 00:08:40
    terms of the casualty exchange ratio but
  • 00:08:43
    you may say well John what about the
  • 00:08:46
    Russians aren't they suffering well the
  • 00:08:48
    answer is no because there were hardly
  • 00:08:51
    any Russian forces in the area for the
  • 00:08:54
    ukrainians to kill why do you think the
  • 00:08:57
    ukrainians were able to invade this
  • 00:08:59
    territory and capture so much land the
  • 00:09:02
    reason's quite simple there were hardly
  • 00:09:04
    any Russians there to contest them so
  • 00:09:06
    the Russian casualty levels are actually
  • 00:09:09
    quite low I don't want to make light of
  • 00:09:11
    the fact that probably quite a few
  • 00:09:13
    Russian soldiers died or were badly
  • 00:09:16
    wounded for sure but compared to the
  • 00:09:19
    ukrainians small number so what's
  • 00:09:22
    happened here if you put all these
  • 00:09:23
    pieces together is that the ukrainians
  • 00:09:27
    have weakened themselves on the
  • 00:09:28
    critically important in Eastern front
  • 00:09:30
    and if anything the casualty exchange
  • 00:09:32
    ratio there will shift in favor of the
  • 00:09:36
    Russians even more than it was before
  • 00:09:38
    August 6 and then if you look at what's
  • 00:09:41
    happening in uh the kers defensive I
  • 00:09:44
    think this is just a disaster the last
  • 00:09:46
    thing is you want to do is sort of get
  • 00:09:48
    out of your holes and start moving out
  • 00:09:50
    in the open as I said before so if
  • 00:09:53
    anything when you put these two fronts
  • 00:09:55
    together the Eastern front and the curse
  • 00:09:57
    front and you ask yourself what's the
  • 00:09:58
    bottom line
  • 00:10:00
    I think the ukrainians have speeded up
  • 00:10:03
    the rate at which they're going to lose
  • 00:10:05
    this war and of course they are going to
  • 00:10:07
    lose this war which was manifestly clear
  • 00:10:09
    even before August 6 that's my basic
  • 00:10:13
    take on this curs or can I just say that
  • 00:10:16
    I also agree with all of that also I
  • 00:10:18
    think that's entirely correct and if you
  • 00:10:20
    follow events very closely I think it
  • 00:10:23
    everything that You' just said the facts
  • 00:10:25
    buried out uh by the way the commentator
  • 00:10:28
    that you mentioned who says that they're
  • 00:10:31
    losing uh that the ukrainians are losing
  • 00:10:33
    armor at twice the rate that they were
  • 00:10:36
    in other places before um he is very
  • 00:10:39
    very Pro Ukrainian he's not someone who
  • 00:10:42
    is at all I know um CR he's not a Critic
  • 00:10:47
    of Ukraine but he's not crit he's not
  • 00:10:50
    happy with this
  • 00:10:51
    operation I think Alexander you're
  • 00:10:54
    getting to the point now where it's
  • 00:10:57
    difficult for even the most uh
  • 00:11:00
    supportive uh individuals supportive of
  • 00:11:03
    Ukraine those individuals to deny what's
  • 00:11:06
    happening on the battlefield uh the
  • 00:11:08
    writing is on the
  • 00:11:11
    wall but it's um it seems that uh if if
  • 00:11:16
    this is again this is a war of attrition
  • 00:11:19
    and in a war of attrition you really
  • 00:11:20
    want to as you point out ex exhaust
  • 00:11:22
    adversary now it seems to me that uh
  • 00:11:25
    Ukraine's defensive lines would be the
  • 00:11:27
    best approach to do this because they
  • 00:11:28
    have this multi-layered defensive line
  • 00:11:30
    so it costs a lot for the Russians to
  • 00:11:33
    break through both in Manpower and in
  • 00:11:35
    terms of uh equipment so and every time
  • 00:11:38
    the Russians break through the
  • 00:11:39
    ukrainians can just fall back to the
  • 00:11:41
    next pre-prepared line so they had this
  • 00:11:44
    in donbas but instead this is what's
  • 00:11:47
    surprising to me with this curs convas
  • 00:11:49
    because they go into this wide open low
  • 00:11:51
    populated areas with hardly any Russian
  • 00:11:53
    soldiers and as you said they're out in
  • 00:11:55
    the open they can be knocked out and uh
  • 00:11:59
    you know not to draw too strong um
  • 00:12:02
    parallel but you know when Napoleon and
  • 00:12:04
    Hitler went in to Russia a key problem
  • 00:12:06
    was protecting their supply lines now
  • 00:12:09
    obviously this is a much smaller
  • 00:12:12
    Invasion but nonetheless a key problem
  • 00:12:14
    has been to be able to supply these
  • 00:12:16
    forces because they're inside Russian
  • 00:12:18
    territory and we see not only are they
  • 00:12:20
    exposed to Russian drones and missiles
  • 00:12:22
    but the Russians have been able to knock
  • 00:12:23
    out the fuel supply which put grinds
  • 00:12:26
    them to Halt and they can't really Pro
  • 00:12:29
    defend these areas because they don't
  • 00:12:31
    get engineering equipment into Russian
  • 00:12:33
    territory either where they can
  • 00:12:34
    effectively dig in and hold this
  • 00:12:36
    position so the so I think that the part
  • 00:12:39
    of the calculation of the ukrainians was
  • 00:12:41
    there they go they storm into Russia
  • 00:12:43
    Russia have to divert all its troops in
  • 00:12:45
    towards KK to stop this down instead it
  • 00:12:48
    looks like the Russians are just uh yes
  • 00:12:52
    taking out the different troops and
  • 00:12:53
    stabilizing the front lines meanwhile
  • 00:12:55
    taking a huge advantage of what's
  • 00:12:57
    Happening Now in D just as one example
  • 00:13:01
    if you look at bov now this this towns
  • 00:13:04
    which just keeps falling one after
  • 00:13:05
    another this noo gka this within the
  • 00:13:09
    three days this is a very strategic area
  • 00:13:12
    right before poov the Russians took it
  • 00:13:14
    they didn't even have to usually they
  • 00:13:15
    had to destroy an entire town in order
  • 00:13:17
    to move forward now they just sent in
  • 00:13:19
    infantry and uh they took the town
  • 00:13:21
    almost uh undamaged in in three days
  • 00:13:25
    it's it's a it's completely absurd if
  • 00:13:28
    you seen what's happened in the past so
  • 00:13:29
    they gave up all this well fortified
  • 00:13:32
    defensive line in order to go on
  • 00:13:34
    defensive and uh I I can see what they
  • 00:13:37
    wanted to go for but uh I'm not sure
  • 00:13:40
    how now that it seems this has been a
  • 00:13:42
    failure is it possible to walk this back
  • 00:13:45
    because they're already in there what do
  • 00:13:48
    they have to double down on failure or
  • 00:13:49
    what is the likely uh Push by the
  • 00:13:53
    ukrainians
  • 00:13:55
    now John no go ahead go ahead no I was
  • 00:13:59
    going to say was that I I I rather
  • 00:14:02
    expected that they would pull back I
  • 00:14:05
    thought that you know that they they
  • 00:14:06
    tried to go in do something quickly and
  • 00:14:09
    then pull out again for all the reasons
  • 00:14:12
    that John and you Glenn have been saying
  • 00:14:15
    and I know there were other people who
  • 00:14:16
    thought this as well and by the way on
  • 00:14:19
    the point about fortifications I'm in
  • 00:14:21
    contact with the marine officer former
  • 00:14:23
    Marine officer Jim Webb he's been
  • 00:14:26
    writing since the summer what the
  • 00:14:27
    ukrainians need to do is to build up
  • 00:14:30
    more fortified positions embed
  • 00:14:33
    themselves in fortified lines give up
  • 00:14:35
    the idea of offensives um think in this
  • 00:14:39
    very conservative way but he also by the
  • 00:14:41
    way says they also need to start serious
  • 00:14:45
    negotiations I think that's right but
  • 00:14:48
    the ukrainians don't do this and I think
  • 00:14:51
    what is probably driving this and it
  • 00:14:54
    probably
  • 00:14:55
    explains why the ukrainians cannot leave
  • 00:14:58
    course
  • 00:14:59
    now that they are there is that far too
  • 00:15:02
    much of the way they conduct their war
  • 00:15:05
    is about image management you know
  • 00:15:07
    appearing to retreat without being
  • 00:15:10
    pushed out is something that they can't
  • 00:15:13
    bring themselves to do and I still think
  • 00:15:16
    that they find the idea of
  • 00:15:20
    negotiations real negotiations
  • 00:15:22
    negotiations based on the actual
  • 00:15:26
    realities impossible to concede conceive
  • 00:15:29
    of Prime Minister Modi went to Kiev
  • 00:15:33
    apparently he said to them you know I'm
  • 00:15:35
    prepared to help you if you want to
  • 00:15:38
    negotiate zalinski has just given an
  • 00:15:40
    interview to the Indian media in which
  • 00:15:43
    he says that he wants all of Ukraine's
  • 00:15:46
    post 1991 territory back so until that
  • 00:15:50
    mindset changes until they finally think
  • 00:15:53
    in a different way I I think that I
  • 00:15:56
    don't think they're going to retreat
  • 00:15:57
    from kusk I don't they're going going to
  • 00:16:00
    pull back and I'm beginning to wonder
  • 00:16:02
    whether we're ever going to see any kind
  • 00:16:04
    of negotiations whilst um the present
  • 00:16:08
    government is in
  • 00:16:10
    power let me make three quick points one
  • 00:16:14
    is if I'm playing the Russians hand I do
  • 00:16:17
    not want them to retreat I want them to
  • 00:16:20
    stay there and I want them to take the
  • 00:16:23
    offensive I want them to stay on the
  • 00:16:25
    offensive I want them to have a simple
  • 00:16:27
    model one that the French had going into
  • 00:16:29
    World War I attack attack attack because
  • 00:16:32
    if I'm a Russian Commander that's
  • 00:16:35
    advantageous to me second point I would
  • 00:16:38
    make is I think all three of us would
  • 00:16:40
    agree that the ukrainians would have
  • 00:16:42
    been smart not to launch the infamous
  • 00:16:46
    counter offensive in the summer of 2023
  • 00:16:49
    and back then stayed on the defensive as
  • 00:16:52
    well that was foolish in the extreme
  • 00:16:55
    because again the casualty exchange
  • 00:16:57
    ratio drastic favored the Russians and
  • 00:17:00
    they ended up capturing hardly any
  • 00:17:03
    territory which is what they were trying
  • 00:17:04
    to do third point is uh a lot of people
  • 00:17:08
    like to uh compare the kers offensive by
  • 00:17:13
    the
  • 00:17:14
    ukrainians uh with uh the Battle of the
  • 00:17:17
    Bulge but I think it's not really the
  • 00:17:20
    best analogy I think the best analogy is
  • 00:17:23
    Operation Blue which was the German
  • 00:17:26
    offensive in World War II against the
  • 00:17:29
    Soviet Union in
  • 00:17:31
    1942 you remember in 1941 the Soviets go
  • 00:17:34
    in with OP operation Barbarosa and there
  • 00:17:37
    are three big prongs one that goes
  • 00:17:39
    toward Leningrad one that goes towards
  • 00:17:41
    Moscow and one that goes into Ukraine uh
  • 00:17:46
    after that fails in December 41 come the
  • 00:17:49
    second year uh of The Campaign which is
  • 00:17:53
    1942 the Germans decide that they're
  • 00:17:56
    going to drive deep into the caucuses
  • 00:17:58
    they're going to take that southern
  • 00:18:00
    prong concentrate on it and drive deep
  • 00:18:02
    into the caucuses and they do Drive deep
  • 00:18:06
    into the caucuses winning stunning
  • 00:18:08
    Victory after stunning Victory but what
  • 00:18:11
    happens is they outrun their logistical
  • 00:18:14
    chain uh and they're un they're unable
  • 00:18:18
    to supply The Cutting Edge forces the
  • 00:18:21
    forces that are at the share P
  • 00:18:24
    furthermore their flanks become exposed
  • 00:18:27
    and this of course is what leads to the
  • 00:18:29
    Battle of Stalingrad which is on their
  • 00:18:31
    Northern flank so over the course of
  • 00:18:33
    1942 early
  • 00:18:36
    1943 what the Germans end up doing is
  • 00:18:39
    getting
  • 00:18:41
    clobbered and being forced to withdraw
  • 00:18:44
    from this huge Salient they had created
  • 00:18:47
    early in
  • 00:18:49
    1942 and the ukrainians are in a similar
  • 00:18:53
    situation they're having huge logistical
  • 00:18:56
    problems supplying their for es right
  • 00:19:00
    and slowly but steadily the Russians are
  • 00:19:02
    assembling forces that are going to
  • 00:19:04
    crush them and they're going to have to
  • 00:19:06
    get out of there in large part because
  • 00:19:09
    of fear that they'll be crushed by
  • 00:19:12
    blanking attacks so they're in a
  • 00:19:14
    hopeless situation just like the Germans
  • 00:19:17
    were in
  • 00:19:19
    1942 it looked initially like a big
  • 00:19:22
    victory but over time and over time
  • 00:19:26
    really matters when you're analyzing
  • 00:19:28
    what happens in Warfare over time uh the
  • 00:19:32
    Russians uh are going to deal a decisive
  • 00:19:35
    blow to those Ukrainian forces in the KK
  • 00:19:40
    region this is why I also criticized
  • 00:19:43
    what I call the Western obsession with
  • 00:19:45
    territory because this is they keep
  • 00:19:48
    celebrating all of this as victories but
  • 00:19:50
    as you said with each new territory
  • 00:19:51
    taken they lose a lot of men and also
  • 00:19:55
    they get stuck there so now with this
  • 00:19:56
    huge casualty rates what are they going
  • 00:19:58
    to do with all the new recruits they're
  • 00:19:59
    able to assemble everything has to be
  • 00:20:01
    sent in to reinforce and the deeper they
  • 00:20:05
    get into Russia the the worse the
  • 00:20:06
    situation gets the the less air support
  • 00:20:09
    they have or less air defense uh which
  • 00:20:12
    means yeah they can be pummeled the
  • 00:20:14
    logistic lines uh become worse and worse
  • 00:20:16
    and it feels like all the benefits uh
  • 00:20:19
    aren't really there of course one of the
  • 00:20:21
    objectives was to contribute to pull in
  • 00:20:23
    NATO indeed seninsky kept kept making
  • 00:20:25
    this argument that look we can invade
  • 00:20:27
    Russia they're not doing anything uh you
  • 00:20:29
    know all red lines are broken so you
  • 00:20:31
    know let us strike Moscow effectively
  • 00:20:33
    with long range and uh but there's also
  • 00:20:35
    this idea that they would Panic the
  • 00:20:36
    Russians instead it looks like the
  • 00:20:38
    Russians are taking it with great ease
  • 00:20:40
    instead taking advantage of
  • 00:20:42
    this poorly defended front lines in the
  • 00:20:46
    poov correction also the idea I mean I
  • 00:20:49
    know it's become common sense in the
  • 00:20:50
    west this humiliation of Putin but I see
  • 00:20:53
    the opposite now for the Russians this
  • 00:20:54
    used to be a war intervening in Ukraine
  • 00:20:58
    uh to prevent NATO's incursion and
  • 00:21:00
    protecting Russian speakers but now uh
  • 00:21:03
    they're defining it as a war of
  • 00:21:05
    Liberation as uh the ukrainians backed
  • 00:21:07
    by NATO has invaded their Homeland I
  • 00:21:09
    mean this
  • 00:21:11
    is this is a just is a terrible terrible
  • 00:21:15
    idea but you can't really say it uh
  • 00:21:18
    because uh well again everything is if
  • 00:21:21
    you if you say this is bad then you're
  • 00:21:24
    seen as not you know crushing the morale
  • 00:21:26
    of the ukrainians and you're boosting
  • 00:21:27
    the morale of the Russian so everyone
  • 00:21:29
    kind of has to nod and go along that
  • 00:21:31
    yeah yeah of course you know celebrate
  • 00:21:33
    this metrics of territory being taken
  • 00:21:35
    even though this doesn't seem to be the
  • 00:21:37
    best way of measuring
  • 00:21:39
    success if I can just jump in and make a
  • 00:21:42
    quick point on territory and Link it to
  • 00:21:45
    the casualty exchange ratio one of the
  • 00:21:49
    criticisms of people in the west who
  • 00:21:51
    focus on territory is that the Russians
  • 00:21:54
    have not captured altogether that much
  • 00:21:57
    territory
  • 00:21:59
    and I think there's an element of Truth
  • 00:22:01
    in that but the reason that is true is
  • 00:22:04
    that the Russians are remarkably careful
  • 00:22:07
    in terms of the tactics they use to make
  • 00:22:10
    sure that they minimize Russian
  • 00:22:13
    casualties so you know you hear all this
  • 00:22:16
    talk not as much as you used to but you
  • 00:22:18
    still hear it occasionally where the
  • 00:22:20
    Russians are sending wave after wave of
  • 00:22:23
    untrained soldiers into this meat
  • 00:22:25
    grinder and therefore the Russians are a
  • 00:22:28
    suffering enormous casualties especially
  • 00:22:31
    when compared to the Ukrainian if you
  • 00:22:33
    look at Russian casualties you look at
  • 00:22:35
    the various indicators that's simply not
  • 00:22:37
    true and the reason it's not true is
  • 00:22:40
    that the tactics they are employing are
  • 00:22:42
    very clever tactics that are designed
  • 00:22:45
    not to maximize the amount of territory
  • 00:22:48
    they capture but are designed to
  • 00:22:50
    minimize the number of Russian
  • 00:22:52
    casualties so the Russian casualties
  • 00:22:55
    remain quite low as Wars of attrition go
  • 00:22:59
    whereas the Ukrainian casualties are
  • 00:23:01
    through the roof uh I don't know what
  • 00:23:04
    the final count is going to look like
  • 00:23:06
    but I would not be surprised if when all
  • 00:23:10
    is said and done in this war that the
  • 00:23:12
    ukrainians have suffered three times as
  • 00:23:15
    many casualties as the Russians have I'm
  • 00:23:17
    not saying that's for sure because as
  • 00:23:19
    both of you know as well as I do it's
  • 00:23:21
    really tough to come up with solid
  • 00:23:23
    numbers but my guess is that the
  • 00:23:25
    ukrainians are just suffering much more
  • 00:23:28
    uh than the Russians much suffering much
  • 00:23:31
    greater casualties and of course this
  • 00:23:33
    has a lot to do with the imbalance and
  • 00:23:35
    artillery and air power as well I don't
  • 00:23:37
    want to make light of that but I also
  • 00:23:39
    think it has a lot to do with the fact
  • 00:23:41
    that the Russians are not obsessed with
  • 00:23:43
    taking territory they understand it's a
  • 00:23:45
    war of attrition and what they're doing
  • 00:23:47
    is minimizing their casualties and
  • 00:23:49
    maximizing Ukrainian
  • 00:23:52
    casualties I think you can see that
  • 00:23:54
    visibly on the battlefronts now that um
  • 00:23:57
    so many of the best Ukrainian troops
  • 00:24:00
    have been attrition out of the picture I
  • 00:24:02
    mean they've been killed or they're
  • 00:24:05
    wounded or whatever reason they're no
  • 00:24:08
    longer there and the people who are
  • 00:24:10
    replacing them are not The Replacements
  • 00:24:13
    that they were and that by the way we're
  • 00:24:16
    reading in the American the British
  • 00:24:18
    media there's articles about this now
  • 00:24:21
    that Ukrainian um numbers uh of men that
  • 00:24:26
    they can put put in the front lines are
  • 00:24:30
    down and that their um the quality of
  • 00:24:34
    their soldiers is declining and that's
  • 00:24:37
    the product of attrition which is not
  • 00:24:39
    affecting the Russians at all in the
  • 00:24:43
    same way now what has to happen before
  • 00:24:47
    people in the west understand this
  • 00:24:49
    because this is what I find so strange
  • 00:24:52
    because we have this situation repeat
  • 00:24:55
    itself time after time when um we can
  • 00:24:58
    see that the ukrainians suffer this
  • 00:25:00
    terrible
  • 00:25:01
    attrition
  • 00:25:03
    and there doesn't seem to be any
  • 00:25:07
    capacity on the part of some people in
  • 00:25:10
    the west quite important people Western
  • 00:25:13
    governments our British government we've
  • 00:25:16
    had quite a lot of Revelations about
  • 00:25:18
    what is being discussed in London it
  • 00:25:21
    seems that in London the new prime
  • 00:25:24
    minister and his officials were elated
  • 00:25:27
    by the these events in K they don't seem
  • 00:25:31
    to understand at all that territory is
  • 00:25:34
    not really the issue in the war at least
  • 00:25:37
    in the way that they imagined they on
  • 00:25:40
    the contrary went out of their way to
  • 00:25:43
    try and Associate themselves with this
  • 00:25:46
    Ukrainian
  • 00:25:48
    success what has to happen before they
  • 00:25:52
    suddenly understand that this is an
  • 00:25:54
    attrition war and not a war in which you
  • 00:25:57
    know the the advantage is um you know
  • 00:26:02
    provided the metric of success is
  • 00:26:05
    territory do we have to see a total
  • 00:26:07
    Ukrainian defeat do we have to see
  • 00:26:09
    hundreds of thousands of people killed I
  • 00:26:13
    mean will when will the penny drop does
  • 00:26:16
    the Pentagon understand that I would
  • 00:26:18
    have thought that they would least would
  • 00:26:20
    just
  • 00:26:22
    asking I think Alexander as long as it's
  • 00:26:25
    the ukrainians who are doing the dying
  • 00:26:27
    dying and not
  • 00:26:29
    westerners uh we are we in the west are
  • 00:26:32
    are willing to continue this war forever
  • 00:26:36
    I think what's going to end it is one of
  • 00:26:38
    two things either the Ukrainian military
  • 00:26:41
    is collapse uh which is a serious
  • 00:26:44
    possibility as we've discussed before on
  • 00:26:46
    this show it's not likely or for certain
  • 00:26:50
    but it's a serious
  • 00:26:53
    possibility uh that's one possible way
  • 00:26:56
    of ending this war and the other is that
  • 00:26:58
    the ukrainians come to the realization
  • 00:27:01
    there's no way they can win this and if
  • 00:27:03
    they do continue it the situation is
  • 00:27:05
    just going to deteriorate again this is
  • 00:27:07
    an argument the three of us have been
  • 00:27:08
    making for a long long time and it is
  • 00:27:12
    possible uh that the ukrainians will
  • 00:27:15
    realize the power of the logic behind
  • 00:27:17
    this argument and try to work out a deal
  • 00:27:21
    uh and but I think absent those two
  • 00:27:25
    possibilities it's just hard to see how
  • 00:27:27
    this one is shut down uh anytime
  • 00:27:30
    soon I think this is a this expectation
  • 00:27:35
    and excitement about territory is also
  • 00:27:37
    quite harmful because you know I made
  • 00:27:40
    also point before that seninsky is often
  • 00:27:42
    criticized for you know what's often
  • 00:27:44
    well defined as PR stunts but one also
  • 00:27:47
    has to keep in mind that these PR stunts
  • 00:27:49
    are necessary for him in order to put uh
  • 00:27:52
    Ukraine back in the headlines and to
  • 00:27:54
    make the West excited and send more
  • 00:27:55
    weapons because uh you know we were all
  • 00:27:58
    talking about how Ukraine was losing and
  • 00:28:00
    people kind of lost interest in it and
  • 00:28:02
    suddenly now it's top of the news
  • 00:28:04
    Ukraine is winning again we're excited
  • 00:28:06
    we're going to send weapons and of
  • 00:28:08
    course all it's all nonsense it's going
  • 00:28:09
    to end up much much worse but uh but
  • 00:28:11
    this is kind of the game they have to
  • 00:28:13
    play as well because of the way we in
  • 00:28:15
    the west are responding to this and I
  • 00:28:17
    think um it seems to me that uh a key
  • 00:28:21
    problem is again how we Define this uh
  • 00:28:24
    as I mentioned before you said even the
  • 00:28:26
    pro ukrainians are now getting very
  • 00:28:27
    worse but from my perspective what has
  • 00:28:30
    been Pro Ukrainian uh as as you also
  • 00:28:32
    said M for more than 10 years
  • 00:28:35
    is that they shouldn't go down this path
  • 00:28:38
    they don't invite NATO onto your
  • 00:28:39
    territory this is not pro Ukrainian this
  • 00:28:41
    will assure the destruction of Ukraine
  • 00:28:44
    and the same with this uh you know
  • 00:28:45
    shutting down their media political
  • 00:28:47
    opposition now Banning the church
  • 00:28:49
    Orthodox Church is this is causing deep
  • 00:28:52
    divisions in Ukrainian Society is making
  • 00:28:54
    it more difficult now to defend
  • 00:28:56
    themselves and maintain solidarity and
  • 00:28:59
    same with the peace agreements this is
  • 00:29:00
    also people who said no we should make
  • 00:29:03
    peace with the Russians otherwise we're
  • 00:29:04
    going to end up with a worse deal this
  • 00:29:05
    was seem to be Pro Russian and now the
  • 00:29:07
    pro ukrainians were the one who
  • 00:29:09
    essentially said no no let's not
  • 00:29:11
    Implement them let's choose war or the
  • 00:29:14
    the counter offensive this was also you
  • 00:29:16
    know if you criticized it then you were
  • 00:29:18
    anti-ukrainian it just seems for me that
  • 00:29:21
    uh it doesn't matter what the outcome is
  • 00:29:23
    it's always just if you say um that you
  • 00:29:26
    that you well push for this counter
  • 00:29:30
    fensive or now invasion of KK it just
  • 00:29:32
    shows that you're taken one side instead
  • 00:29:35
    of the Russian side it seems like
  • 00:29:36
    whatever might be preferred by the
  • 00:29:38
    Russians uh is immediately seen as being
  • 00:29:41
    anti-ukrainian but I think over and over
  • 00:29:43
    again we keep seeing quite the opposite
  • 00:29:45
    that all this um so-called Pro Ukrainian
  • 00:29:49
    positions ends up just devastating the
  • 00:29:51
    country imagine if you know we wouldn't
  • 00:29:53
    have toppled the government or any of
  • 00:29:55
    these terrible decisions but nonetheless
  • 00:29:57
    every everything horrible to Ukraine is
  • 00:30:00
    always positioned as being pro a
  • 00:30:02
    pro-ukrainian policy simply because
  • 00:30:04
    Russia might benefit the iron is of
  • 00:30:06
    course if you threaten Russia Ukraine
  • 00:30:09
    will definitely not benefit and um
  • 00:30:12
    yeah you know just to pick up on this uh
  • 00:30:16
    it's interesting if you look at the
  • 00:30:18
    Israeli case and the Ukrainian case here
  • 00:30:22
    are two countries that are in deep
  • 00:30:23
    trouble I know we're going to discuss
  • 00:30:25
    the Israeli issue shortly but is Israel
  • 00:30:28
    is in deep trouble and what it's doing
  • 00:30:30
    is doubling down which is not what it
  • 00:30:33
    should be doing it should be thinking
  • 00:30:35
    about how to get out of the mess that
  • 00:30:36
    it's in but it's not just making a bad
  • 00:30:39
    situation worse and the same thing is
  • 00:30:41
    true with the ukrainians and in both
  • 00:30:44
    cases you have the west and here we're
  • 00:30:46
    talking mainly about the United States
  • 00:30:48
    although not exclusively because the
  • 00:30:50
    British and the Germans are joined at
  • 00:30:52
    the hip with the United States in both
  • 00:30:54
    of these instances but anyway we in the
  • 00:30:58
    west are backing the Israelis as they
  • 00:31:01
    dig deeper and deeper and we are backing
  • 00:31:04
    the ukrainians as they dig deeper and
  • 00:31:07
    deeper and you really sort of wonder
  • 00:31:10
    about the collective wisdom of the
  • 00:31:11
    foreign policy establishment in the west
  • 00:31:15
    especially in the United States from my
  • 00:31:17
    point of view what are these people
  • 00:31:18
    thinking it just seems to me that
  • 00:31:20
    anybody who looks at these conflicts in
  • 00:31:22
    a cold and calculating way which is the
  • 00:31:25
    way that we do it's kind of hard to
  • 00:31:27
    avoid void the conclusions that we're
  • 00:31:29
    reaching I don't mean to sound like I'm
  • 00:31:32
    patting the three of us on the back but
  • 00:31:35
    I just sometimes scratch my head and say
  • 00:31:38
    I listen to this Western propaganda
  • 00:31:41
    about both Israel and about Ukraine what
  • 00:31:43
    these people thinking the facts on the
  • 00:31:45
    ground bear a little resemblance to the
  • 00:31:47
    story that they're telling well I think
  • 00:31:50
    this is absolutely correct you don't
  • 00:31:52
    need to be a genius to see that Ukraine
  • 00:31:54
    is losing the war it's it's obvious
  • 00:31:58
    it what is this operation in kusk
  • 00:32:01
    actually achieved so far it's captured
  • 00:32:03
    one small town of 5,000 people and a
  • 00:32:06
    couple of villages you know a large
  • 00:32:08
    number of very little villages in a
  • 00:32:11
    forested and thinly populated area and
  • 00:32:14
    it's costing Ukraine thousands of men
  • 00:32:16
    and in the meantime exactly as Glenn
  • 00:32:18
    said all they M the places like bakov a
  • 00:32:22
    major logistical place a big industrial
  • 00:32:25
    center all of that is about to be lost
  • 00:32:28
    this it doesn't need you to be an
  • 00:32:33
    analyst of any great ability to see that
  • 00:32:37
    but you never see it discussed in that
  • 00:32:40
    way it it's it's always discussed in
  • 00:32:43
    this incredibly emotional terms at least
  • 00:32:46
    certainly in Britain it is invocations
  • 00:32:48
    of Churchill talk about appeasement not
  • 00:32:52
    appeasing the dictator uh it's always
  • 00:32:55
    discussed in terms of political will you
  • 00:32:58
    know if we have the will to give the
  • 00:33:00
    support to Ukraine that Ukraine needs
  • 00:33:03
    whatever that support is there's never
  • 00:33:05
    any discussion I noticed ever about
  • 00:33:09
    actual material possibilities what
  • 00:33:12
    number of weapons or what number amount
  • 00:33:15
    of money or what it would be needed to
  • 00:33:17
    do to turn this thing round it's never
  • 00:33:19
    talked about in that way it's always
  • 00:33:21
    about Will and emotion it's never about
  • 00:33:24
    the kind of analysis that well
  • 00:33:28
    I think in our own different ways each
  • 00:33:30
    of us tries to
  • 00:33:32
    do yeah when I uh was younger uh and
  • 00:33:37
    began my PhD work and then my early
  • 00:33:40
    career as an academic uh I wrote about
  • 00:33:43
    conventional deterrence and I studied
  • 00:33:45
    the conventional balance in Europe uh I
  • 00:33:48
    studied the Israeli Wars very carefully
  • 00:33:51
    5667
  • 00:33:53
    73 uh and I studied World War I and
  • 00:33:57
    World War too I know an enormous amount
  • 00:33:59
    about how those Wars uh were fought and
  • 00:34:03
    of course I was in the American Military
  • 00:34:04
    during the Vietnam war so I paid great
  • 00:34:07
    attention to the question of how the
  • 00:34:08
    United States uh might be able to win or
  • 00:34:12
    maybe can't win that war and so forth
  • 00:34:14
    and so on and the one thing I learned in
  • 00:34:17
    all those studies is that you have to
  • 00:34:20
    have a theory of Victory you have to
  • 00:34:22
    have a story that tells how you're going
  • 00:34:24
    to win and you have to be able to figure
  • 00:34:26
    out what are the things that really
  • 00:34:28
    matter on the battlefield that determine
  • 00:34:31
    whether side a wins or side B wins and
  • 00:34:36
    if you look at the analysis that's done
  • 00:34:39
    in the west and this includes by these
  • 00:34:42
    generals who are on television as well
  • 00:34:45
    as all of these civilian military
  • 00:34:49
    experts uh who are trotted out to tell
  • 00:34:52
    us what is likely to happen as a result
  • 00:34:55
    of X Y and Z on these battlefields
  • 00:34:58
    most of them do not have a good
  • 00:35:00
    understanding of how Wars are actually
  • 00:35:02
    fought and most of them do not have a
  • 00:35:04
    theory of Victory uh for winning uh Wars
  • 00:35:09
    of one sort or another and I think this
  • 00:35:12
    this lack of depth uh uh this inability
  • 00:35:16
    to sort of analyze Wars in a really sort
  • 00:35:20
    of sophisticated or semi sophisticated
  • 00:35:23
    way is really quite stunning and the end
  • 00:35:26
    result is you have these generals who
  • 00:35:28
    are trotted out as you know great seers
  • 00:35:31
    of the future who end up with egg all
  • 00:35:35
    over their face I mean David Petraeus
  • 00:35:37
    talking about the counter offensive and
  • 00:35:39
    where it's going to lead even when the
  • 00:35:41
    counter offensive was clearly doomed he
  • 00:35:43
    was predicting Victory and you just sort
  • 00:35:46
    of say to yourself what's this guy
  • 00:35:48
    thinking where are we here but that's
  • 00:35:51
    the story in the west and that's why uh
  • 00:35:55
    most people in the west think about
  • 00:35:57
    these different Wars so differently than
  • 00:35:59
    we do I think it's I when you mentioned
  • 00:36:03
    your doctor I thought about my own PhD
  • 00:36:05
    because I did the PHD on the postc Cold
  • 00:36:07
    War European security architecture
  • 00:36:09
    organized around the EU and NATO as
  • 00:36:11
    interd Democratic security institutions
  • 00:36:13
    and I thought it was also interesting
  • 00:36:14
    because I I looked at it from the extent
  • 00:36:16
    to which it either um reduced or
  • 00:36:19
    intensified the security Dilemma to cut
  • 00:36:21
    effectively Russia out of the new Europe
  • 00:36:23
    as long as it's organized around these
  • 00:36:25
    so-called Democratic institutions and
  • 00:36:27
    and and found it interesting because if
  • 00:36:28
    you look at security dilemma again the
  • 00:36:30
    security competition should really be
  • 00:36:31
    the Point of Departure in any discussion
  • 00:36:33
    of security that is but uh I I noticed
  • 00:36:36
    very quickly when I went to any
  • 00:36:37
    conferences or anything to discuss the
  • 00:36:39
    security dilemma everyone was quite
  • 00:36:42
    comfortable discussing how Russia
  • 00:36:44
    undermines our security but as soon as
  • 00:36:46
    you pointed out how we might undermine
  • 00:36:48
    their security it was almost as if it
  • 00:36:51
    was trees like why why are you taking
  • 00:36:53
    their side and for me it was a bit
  • 00:36:55
    shocking because if you discuss the
  • 00:36:58
    security concern of the other guy how is
  • 00:37:00
    it possible to find any political
  • 00:37:02
    Solutions and it kind of dawned on me
  • 00:37:04
    this is a essentially the world we're
  • 00:37:06
    living now we're not discussing
  • 00:37:07
    political Solutions and I can't remember
  • 00:37:10
    ever opening any newspaper watching a TV
  • 00:37:12
    program where they actually discuss well
  • 00:37:14
    this is what the Russians are worried
  • 00:37:15
    about this is how their security policy
  • 00:37:17
    addresses this concern now how can we
  • 00:37:19
    increase our Security based on what they
  • 00:37:21
    were never we never indeed the whole
  • 00:37:24
    concept of recognizing Russian legit
  • 00:37:27
    legitimate security concern is some kind
  • 00:37:28
    of an appeasement and this is
  • 00:37:30
    interpreted as being loyal to our side
  • 00:37:33
    instead of taking their side but the
  • 00:37:35
    great irony is we we can't enhance our
  • 00:37:37
    own security if we don't recognize that
  • 00:37:40
    we also then can't always increase our
  • 00:37:42
    security at the expense of theirs and
  • 00:37:44
    that's why I thought it was interesting
  • 00:37:45
    you drew both you drew this link to
  • 00:37:47
    Israel because it's the same there I
  • 00:37:49
    mean if you care about Israel it's Al
  • 00:37:52
    always translated into if Pro
  • 00:37:54
    pro-israeli means you make excuses for
  • 00:37:56
    the war they're fighting in Gaza and you
  • 00:37:59
    want to delegitimize the other sides or
  • 00:38:01
    the Palestinians Hezbollah Iran but this
  • 00:38:03
    is the opposite of which should should
  • 00:38:05
    have been doing because we're putting
  • 00:38:06
    them on a path to Suicide it seems uh
  • 00:38:09
    you know we should be looking at the
  • 00:38:11
    legitimate security concerns they have
  • 00:38:13
    not everything but the legitimate ones
  • 00:38:14
    and address it to again reduce the
  • 00:38:17
    security competition and but we're doing
  • 00:38:20
    none of this instead it's always if
  • 00:38:21
    you're Pro Ukrainian just do anything
  • 00:38:24
    that's anti-russian and if you're pro
  • 00:38:26
    Israel just push hard and ignore the the
  • 00:38:29
    rivals for me it seems like a yeah
  • 00:38:32
    coition course and uh yeah on that topic
  • 00:38:35
    I guess to what extent are we Alexander
  • 00:38:38
    and John on a coition course now because
  • 00:38:41
    uh many people are breathing out that
  • 00:38:43
    you know the Israelis and Hezbollah and
  • 00:38:46
    all has taking a step back but uh are
  • 00:38:48
    are they really or taking a pause where
  • 00:38:51
    are we standing here uh I'm just going
  • 00:38:53
    to express my my own quick view I I was
  • 00:38:56
    listening to prime minister Netanyahu
  • 00:38:58
    when he came to the United States and he
  • 00:39:01
    addressed Congress and my own view I
  • 00:39:04
    mean I've been listening to Netanyahu
  • 00:39:06
    for a long time much of what he said was
  • 00:39:08
    not new but I got the sense that he very
  • 00:39:12
    very much is looking to escalate and to
  • 00:39:15
    have a wider war and I think everything
  • 00:39:17
    that he's done since that speech the
  • 00:39:19
    assassination of Han in Teran the uh uh
  • 00:39:24
    sabotaging of every attempt to achieve a
  • 00:39:27
    peace a ceasefire in Gaza his rhetoric
  • 00:39:31
    against Iran his previous attack on the
  • 00:39:34
    embassy in
  • 00:39:35
    Damascus um the latest events that we've
  • 00:39:38
    seen over the last couple of days all of
  • 00:39:41
    that tells me that he wants a war he
  • 00:39:42
    wants escalation and and we don't seem
  • 00:39:45
    to be doing anything at all to tell him
  • 00:39:48
    stop on the contrary when we and by the
  • 00:39:53
    way in this I include the British were
  • 00:39:55
    absolutely full fully engaged in this
  • 00:39:58
    whenever it comes to telling people we
  • 00:40:01
    need es we need moderation we need
  • 00:40:04
    restraint it's the Iranians we address
  • 00:40:06
    it to even though recently maybe not
  • 00:40:11
    always but in the last couple of months
  • 00:40:14
    ever since the events last October it's
  • 00:40:17
    the Iranians who've been exercising
  • 00:40:19
    restraint so we ask for more restraint
  • 00:40:21
    from the party that's exercising
  • 00:40:24
    restraint and we never ask the same from
  • 00:40:27
    the side that isn't that's how it looks
  • 00:40:30
    to me so given that this is the
  • 00:40:32
    situation I cannot see how it can end in
  • 00:40:35
    any other way than in a smash now I'll
  • 00:40:39
    be interested to hear what Professor MIM
  • 00:40:42
    has to
  • 00:40:42
    say just before I uh talk specifically
  • 00:40:46
    about uh the Middle East uh I would note
  • 00:40:51
    that both
  • 00:40:53
    zinski and Netanyahu were trying to drag
  • 00:40:56
    the drag the United States into their
  • 00:41:00
    Wars and in both cases the United States
  • 00:41:03
    wants to stay
  • 00:41:05
    out but yahu is not acting all that
  • 00:41:09
    differently from zilinski and one could
  • 00:41:11
    argue that the reason zeny invaded
  • 00:41:14
    Ukraine one of the reasons was to uh
  • 00:41:18
    cause the Russians to retaliate in a way
  • 00:41:20
    that would the Americans in so the
  • 00:41:23
    United States has to be very careful
  • 00:41:25
    that it doesn't get dragged into either
  • 00:41:26
    one of those Wars now I agree with
  • 00:41:29
    Alexander but just to embellish his
  • 00:41:31
    point a bit uh and talk a bit about what
  • 00:41:35
    net Yahoo's uh nitty-gritty incentives
  • 00:41:38
    are uh first of all I think he wants to
  • 00:41:41
    drag us into a war with Ukraine with
  • 00:41:45
    Iran so that we bash Iran Iran is
  • 00:41:49
    weakened and I think he's especially
  • 00:41:51
    hopeful that we destroy its nuclear
  • 00:41:53
    capabilities because as you both know
  • 00:41:56
    the Ukraine the uranians are not far
  • 00:41:58
    away uh from becoming a nuclear weapon
  • 00:42:01
    state because they've been enriching uh
  • 00:42:03
    Uranian up to
  • 00:42:05
    60% uh that's one reason another reason
  • 00:42:08
    is he wants the war to continue he
  • 00:42:10
    doesn't want the war to end uh because
  • 00:42:13
    he fears that if it ends he'll be
  • 00:42:15
    toppled from Power third reason and a
  • 00:42:18
    very important reason he's bent on
  • 00:42:20
    ethnically cleansing Gaza and he'd like
  • 00:42:22
    to ethnically cleanse the West Bank as
  • 00:42:24
    well and the Israelis know that the best
  • 00:42:27
    opportunity for cleansing comes with a
  • 00:42:29
    big war you want to remember that two
  • 00:42:31
    big cleansings that have taken place so
  • 00:42:34
    far with theba in
  • 00:42:36
    1948 with the Israelis in the context of
  • 00:42:39
    that war drove probably about three4 of
  • 00:42:42
    a million Palestinians out of the
  • 00:42:44
    country and then the second big
  • 00:42:46
    expulsion was in the wake of the 1967
  • 00:42:50
    war when they probably drove about
  • 00:42:52
    250,000 Palestinians out of the West
  • 00:42:55
    Bank so I think their belief is that if
  • 00:42:58
    they can get a uh a big war going that
  • 00:43:02
    will provide the perfect opportunity uh
  • 00:43:05
    to ethnically cleanse Gaza and maybe
  • 00:43:07
    even ethnically cleanse some of the West
  • 00:43:10
    Bank uh so for all those reasons I think
  • 00:43:14
    uh Netanyahu really wants to get the
  • 00:43:16
    Americans involved the Americans of
  • 00:43:18
    course are going to Great Lengths not to
  • 00:43:20
    get involved we're doing everything we
  • 00:43:22
    can to tell the Iranians not to
  • 00:43:24
    retaliate uh we didn't want head lot to
  • 00:43:28
    retaliate and uh and we're doing
  • 00:43:30
    everything we can I shouldn't say that
  • 00:43:32
    that's
  • 00:43:33
    incorrect we're trying Without Really
  • 00:43:37
    Trying to put a a ceasefire in place in
  • 00:43:41
    Gaza uh but uh but I think Alexander may
  • 00:43:45
    be right uh with regard to uh uh the
  • 00:43:49
    Middle East that uh a big conflict is
  • 00:43:52
    coming and that despite the best efforts
  • 00:43:54
    of the United States uh there's we can
  • 00:43:57
    do about it I would note uh Alexander I
  • 00:44:00
    know you've talked about this the uhu uh
  • 00:44:04
    the Iranians have not retaliated yet but
  • 00:44:07
    if you listen to them talk it's hard to
  • 00:44:09
    believe they're not going to retaliate
  • 00:44:11
    at some point and my sense there for
  • 00:44:14
    what it's worth is the Iranians are
  • 00:44:17
    waiting till the Americans draw down
  • 00:44:20
    their forces in the
  • 00:44:22
    region and we in effect let down our
  • 00:44:25
    guard and the Israeli do the same thing
  • 00:44:29
    and then they'll strike but if the
  • 00:44:33
    Iranians strike and again they indicate
  • 00:44:36
    that they are going to strike and it is
  • 00:44:38
    a significant strike the Israelis are
  • 00:44:41
    really going to go back at them and
  • 00:44:43
    furthermore when the Iranians do strike
  • 00:44:46
    we the Americans and even the Europeans
  • 00:44:48
    the British and the French are committed
  • 00:44:51
    to helping the Israeli so we were going
  • 00:44:54
    to get we are going to get dragged into
  • 00:44:55
    the conflict so we may have this uh you
  • 00:44:59
    know big conflict that the United States
  • 00:45:02
    is actually trying to
  • 00:45:05
    avoid I I I I completely agree and by
  • 00:45:08
    the way on the question of being dragged
  • 00:45:10
    in uh Israel is not just trying to drag
  • 00:45:13
    in the United States it's trying to drag
  • 00:45:16
    in the Europeans as well there was a
  • 00:45:18
    it's not been widely reported but the
  • 00:45:20
    Israeli foreign minister Mr Katz had a
  • 00:45:23
    meeting with the British and French
  • 00:45:25
    foreign ministers and he said if Iran
  • 00:45:27
    attacks um Israel and Israel needs to
  • 00:45:32
    conduct a Counterattack against Iran
  • 00:45:35
    well you know it's been told it's it's
  • 00:45:38
    been promised in effect by the British
  • 00:45:40
    and the French that they'll be there
  • 00:45:42
    with Israel now that almost certainly
  • 00:45:44
    was not true I'm sure that the British
  • 00:45:47
    and the French made no such promise that
  • 00:45:51
    meeting and in fact when the actual
  • 00:45:54
    eventual readout was provided by the
  • 00:45:57
    Israeli foreign Ministry it it it sort
  • 00:46:00
    of toned all that down but apparently
  • 00:46:02
    those words were in fact said so you can
  • 00:46:05
    see what's happening the the Israelis
  • 00:46:07
    are trying to get as many people they're
  • 00:46:09
    trying to create in effect an
  • 00:46:11
    International Coalition around
  • 00:46:13
    themselves to fight Iran I don't think
  • 00:46:16
    they're going to get it I don't think
  • 00:46:17
    the British public for example is in any
  • 00:46:20
    mood to get itself drawn into a war with
  • 00:46:22
    Iran or with Russia for that matter by
  • 00:46:25
    the way but um I sense myself that
  • 00:46:30
    Netanyahu wants his war and I think he's
  • 00:46:32
    going to get it at some point I don't
  • 00:46:34
    know how it's going to play out but or
  • 00:46:36
    how the steps that are going to get us
  • 00:46:39
    there but I
  • 00:46:40
    think that's probably where he's taking
  • 00:46:43
    us and by the way just to say your
  • 00:46:46
    suggestion of why the Iranians are
  • 00:46:47
    waiting I think that's
  • 00:46:49
    a probably almost certainly right I I
  • 00:46:54
    would I I I I never thought of it before
  • 00:46:57
    but I think that's exactly the kind of
  • 00:46:59
    waiting game that they like to play and
  • 00:47:01
    I think you probably hit the nail on the
  • 00:47:04
    head on
  • 00:47:05
    that yeah but you know just to take this
  • 00:47:07
    a step further uh the question I would
  • 00:47:10
    ask you two guys
  • 00:47:12
    is how does Israel win any of these
  • 00:47:17
    conflicts I mean if you look at what
  • 00:47:19
    happened with Hamas in Gaza it's hard to
  • 00:47:22
    argue the Israelis won uh certainly
  • 00:47:26
    given the goals that they had which were
  • 00:47:27
    to destroy uh Hamas and uh eliminate any
  • 00:47:32
    sort of meaningful military threat from
  • 00:47:34
    Gaza they didn't succeed and even if you
  • 00:47:36
    look at the recent exchange between
  • 00:47:39
    Hezbollah and Israel how is that a
  • 00:47:43
    military victory for Israel how does
  • 00:47:45
    that solve their problem Hezbollah still
  • 00:47:49
    standing hasbalah by the way did not use
  • 00:47:53
    any of its ballistic missiles to attack
  • 00:47:56
    Israel so has this huge inventory of
  • 00:47:58
    ballistic missiles and still drones and
  • 00:48:01
    Rockets and so forth and so on the
  • 00:48:04
    threat is still there they're still
  • 00:48:06
    going to continue to be firing each at
  • 00:48:08
    each other Israel doesn't have
  • 00:48:10
    escalation dominance all of those people
  • 00:48:13
    who have been displaced from the
  • 00:48:15
    northern border of Israel into the
  • 00:48:18
    center of the country still can't get go
  • 00:48:20
    back to their homes so how did what
  • 00:48:23
    happen
  • 00:48:24
    yesterday uh represent how does that
  • 00:48:28
    represent a victory I just don't
  • 00:48:31
    understand and if you go to war against
  • 00:48:33
    Iran tell me the story as to how that
  • 00:48:36
    leads to Victory does anybody seriously
  • 00:48:38
    think that the United States and Israel
  • 00:48:41
    pounding Iran is going to produce a
  • 00:48:43
    military victory for Israel that it's
  • 00:48:46
    going to put an end to the Iran Israel
  • 00:48:48
    conflict hard for me to see uh so I mean
  • 00:48:52
    the Israelis are you know doubling down
  • 00:48:54
    they're using military force uh as much
  • 00:48:57
    as ever but what is it buying
  • 00:49:00
    them that's been a general problem over
  • 00:49:03
    the past 30 years whenever we go to war
  • 00:49:06
    we never Define Victory the which is
  • 00:49:08
    also implicitly the the exit strategy
  • 00:49:12
    but uh I I think for the Israelis the
  • 00:49:14
    only Victory is if they if you if you
  • 00:49:17
    eliminate the possible diplomatic
  • 00:49:19
    solution of a Palestinian State it's
  • 00:49:22
    either uh apartheid or ethnic cleansing
  • 00:49:26
    and I think of of Gaza primarily
  • 00:49:31
    now it's still maybe achievable if you
  • 00:49:34
    have a major war but um I think if you
  • 00:49:37
    look at what Netanyahu wants in any
  • 00:49:39
    ceasefire agreement not that necessarily
  • 00:49:42
    is not being genuine but there always uh
  • 00:49:45
    some kind of control over Gaza so some
  • 00:49:47
    way of I don't know putting it under
  • 00:49:49
    their control so I'm not sure how they
  • 00:49:52
    would realistically achieve this and
  • 00:49:54
    obviously escalating now with hollah I
  • 00:49:56
    don't see any possible Pathway to
  • 00:50:00
    Victory and but this has become a common
  • 00:50:02
    feature the same as when we've been
  • 00:50:04
    fighting Russia for two and a half years
  • 00:50:06
    no one actually defined what it would
  • 00:50:08
    mean to defeat the world's largest
  • 00:50:10
    nuclear power uh you know at what point
  • 00:50:13
    would NATO March through Crimea without
  • 00:50:16
    triggering a nuclear war so I think
  • 00:50:18
    it's across the board it's just yeah
  • 00:50:21
    this is the key problem we never Define
  • 00:50:23
    our victories and uh I just want to have
  • 00:50:25
    a quick comment on what you mentioned
  • 00:50:27
    before this pulling in NATO and the us
  • 00:50:29
    because I think this is a key problem
  • 00:50:31
    with the whole Alliance system in for
  • 00:50:34
    about 8 years ago John Herz he wrote
  • 00:50:36
    that Alliance systems replace the right
  • 00:50:39
    to make war with the responsibility to
  • 00:50:41
    do so and uh you know this is why
  • 00:50:44
    ukrainians have an incentive to escalate
  • 00:50:46
    because they can pull in NATO this is
  • 00:50:47
    why the Israelis have an incentive to
  • 00:50:49
    escalate because they pull in the
  • 00:50:50
    Americans so why would you do any diplom
  • 00:50:53
    painful diplomatic Solutions if you
  • 00:50:55
    always have that powerful state in the
  • 00:50:57
    back so you're willing to take these
  • 00:50:58
    huge compromises now compromise risks
  • 00:51:01
    sorry and this has been a problem not
  • 00:51:03
    just with Ukraine look at the Baltic
  • 00:51:04
    states they there's one reason why they
  • 00:51:06
    never made any you know peace with
  • 00:51:08
    Russia they continued this belligerent
  • 00:51:10
    policies because they have the United
  • 00:51:12
    States and nato in their back without
  • 00:51:14
    this of course you would have to try to
  • 00:51:17
    at least uh overcome some of the Soviet
  • 00:51:20
    Legacy and find a way of living next to
  • 00:51:22
    each other but you don't have to when
  • 00:51:23
    you have this you know big uh yeah ful
  • 00:51:26
    Army behind you so I think this is the
  • 00:51:30
    we always celebrating Alliance systems
  • 00:51:31
    for you know only protecting and
  • 00:51:33
    defending but it's also preventing
  • 00:51:36
    anyone from making any compromises uh so
  • 00:51:38
    I think this has been the problem of
  • 00:51:39
    Israel not just now but over the past
  • 00:51:41
    decades why would it ever have to make
  • 00:51:43
    any painful compromises with the
  • 00:51:45
    Palestinians it doesn't have to it can
  • 00:51:47
    always have the option of getting
  • 00:51:48
    everything I think so um yeah again I
  • 00:51:51
    don't think this is in their necessarily
  • 00:51:53
    in their interest the to discourage them
  • 00:51:56
    from making any
  • 00:51:58
    compromises just a quick point on that
  • 00:52:00
    Glenn is both of you know Steve Walt and
  • 00:52:03
    I wrote this uh famous book called The
  • 00:52:06
    Israel Lobby and US foreign policy and
  • 00:52:10
    the argument we made in the book was we
  • 00:52:12
    have this powerful Lobby in the United
  • 00:52:15
    States the Israel Lobby uh that has a
  • 00:52:18
    huge influence on American policy toward
  • 00:52:20
    the Middle East and especially towards
  • 00:52:22
    Israel and especially towards the
  • 00:52:24
    Israeli Palestinian conflict and the end
  • 00:52:27
    result is that the United States
  • 00:52:29
    supports Israel
  • 00:52:32
    unconditionally and in the book and in
  • 00:52:34
    our public presentations we have always
  • 00:52:37
    argued that the lobby is not good for
  • 00:52:39
    the United States that the policies that
  • 00:52:42
    it's pushing are not good for American
  • 00:52:44
    Security but we have also argued
  • 00:52:47
    emphatically that the policies that the
  • 00:52:50
    lobby is pushing which is to support
  • 00:52:53
    Israel unconditionally are not good for
  • 00:52:56
    Israel
  • 00:52:57
    so when you look at American policy
  • 00:52:59
    towards Israel it is important to
  • 00:53:02
    understand that there are many policy
  • 00:53:03
    makers over time presidents in
  • 00:53:06
    particular who have wanted to put
  • 00:53:08
    significant pressure on Israel not to do
  • 00:53:10
    foolish things that were not only not
  • 00:53:13
    good for the United States but not good
  • 00:53:15
    for Israel itself but those presidents
  • 00:53:18
    could not put any pressure on Israel of
  • 00:53:21
    any consequence in large part because of
  • 00:53:23
    the lobby because the lobby demands that
  • 00:53:26
    the United States support Israel
  • 00:53:29
    unconditionally so here's a country
  • 00:53:31
    Israel that is really in deep trouble it
  • 00:53:34
    is in deep trouble and it is digging
  • 00:53:37
    deeper and deeper and what is the lobby
  • 00:53:39
    doing here in the United States and by
  • 00:53:41
    the way there's a Lobby in Britain and
  • 00:53:44
    lobbies all across Europe as well uh
  • 00:53:47
    which is one of the reasons all these
  • 00:53:48
    governments support Israel no matter
  • 00:53:51
    what it does what all these lobbies are
  • 00:53:54
    doing right is they help helping Israel
  • 00:53:57
    dig that hole at a more rapid rate and
  • 00:54:00
    get deeper and deeper into the ground
  • 00:54:03
    this is not smart those lobbyist those
  • 00:54:06
    so-called supporters of Israel right
  • 00:54:09
    ought to think long and hard about
  • 00:54:11
    what's going on here and Glenn this gets
  • 00:54:13
    back to your point about Ukraine People
  • 00:54:16
    Like Us are pro portrayed as being
  • 00:54:19
    anti-ukrainian and all of these
  • 00:54:22
    supporters of endless war in Ukraine are
  • 00:54:25
    supposed to be the Great Defenders of
  • 00:54:27
    Ukraine your point which I agree with
  • 00:54:29
    and I'm sure Alexander agrees with is
  • 00:54:32
    that this is completely backwards and
  • 00:54:34
    all these cheerleaders for Ukraine are
  • 00:54:37
    leading it down the Primrose path I'm
  • 00:54:39
    making the same argument with regard to
  • 00:54:42
    Israel right if Israel's supporters were
  • 00:54:46
    hard-headed strategists and were forced
  • 00:54:49
    to think clearly about the policies
  • 00:54:51
    they're pushing they would say that it
  • 00:54:54
    is not in Israel's interest to continue
  • 00:54:58
    digging deeper and deeper any more than
  • 00:55:00
    it's in Ukraine's interest but the
  • 00:55:02
    problem is that people like us just
  • 00:55:04
    don't have much voice in the existing
  • 00:55:07
    system I think this is absolutely
  • 00:55:10
    correct all my lifetime I hear about how
  • 00:55:13
    Israel is winning except of course it
  • 00:55:15
    never wins I mean it's it's it's always
  • 00:55:18
    a process of winning you win every
  • 00:55:21
    tactical battle but at the end of the at
  • 00:55:23
    the end of it the end of the day you
  • 00:55:25
    find yourself
  • 00:55:26
    in a far worse situation than you would
  • 00:55:29
    have been in if you had been prepared at
  • 00:55:32
    some point to compromise they've had
  • 00:55:34
    ample opportunities to do that in 67 in
  • 00:55:39
    the various negotiations that took place
  • 00:55:41
    in the
  • 00:55:42
    1970s at the Geneva conference I
  • 00:55:44
    remember which has been floated for the
  • 00:55:47
    1970s after Camp David agreements but
  • 00:55:50
    they never do it because they never
  • 00:55:52
    really feel that they have that pressure
  • 00:55:54
    on them that need to negotiate which is
  • 00:55:57
    what Glenn was talking about they can
  • 00:55:59
    always hold out for whatever maximalist
  • 00:56:03
    objective that they have and in the end
  • 00:56:06
    it's where where where it's brought them
  • 00:56:08
    to is the position in which they are now
  • 00:56:11
    where they've got an unwinable war in
  • 00:56:14
    Gaza which they don't know how to end
  • 00:56:16
    and they don't want to end where their
  • 00:56:18
    economy is in a very poor State it's
  • 00:56:21
    declining their credit rating is
  • 00:56:24
    declining their army is exha Ed there's
  • 00:56:27
    arguments between the Prime Minister and
  • 00:56:29
    his generals with reports in the
  • 00:56:31
    financial times saying that the prime
  • 00:56:34
    minister is caus calling the generals
  • 00:56:36
    cowards which is incredible but that's
  • 00:56:39
    you know the financial times that's
  • 00:56:40
    saying that and they're drifting into a
  • 00:56:45
    conflict with Iran a very big country
  • 00:56:49
    potentially a very powerful one again I
  • 00:56:52
    can't understand what victory uh Victory
  • 00:56:55
    there uh would be
  • 00:56:56
    but nobody is making these points in
  • 00:57:00
    that in the way that you've just made
  • 00:57:02
    them John nobody's doing that everybody
  • 00:57:05
    looks at this purely in very tactical
  • 00:57:08
    terms you know can we conduct a
  • 00:57:10
    successful air strike on Iran on as if
  • 00:57:15
    that ultimately achieves anything all
  • 00:57:18
    it's going to do is to make the
  • 00:57:19
    situation worse and um I I don't know
  • 00:57:23
    what has to happen before it changes I
  • 00:57:28
    think in Ukraine where there is a
  • 00:57:32
    major you know preponderance of power on
  • 00:57:35
    the Russian side and they can at least
  • 00:57:39
    at some point bring the war to an end on
  • 00:57:41
    some kind of basis that works for them I
  • 00:57:44
    think we can perhaps see a possible what
  • 00:57:48
    we can look forward one day to a day
  • 00:57:50
    when there won't be a war there but in
  • 00:57:52
    the Middle East I have to say I I look
  • 00:57:54
    upon events with dread and I think for
  • 00:57:57
    Israel it's now an existential situation
  • 00:58:00
    I think that they're in a more dangerous
  • 00:58:03
    position now than they have ever been in
  • 00:58:05
    their history all this winning where has
  • 00:58:08
    it brought
  • 00:58:09
    them yeah just two quick points one is
  • 00:58:13
    that the political center of gravity in
  • 00:58:15
    Israel Over time will move further and
  • 00:58:18
    further to the right uh if you just look
  • 00:58:20
    at the demographics uh and uh you see U
  • 00:58:25
    that the more extreme groups are having
  • 00:58:27
    large numbers of babies uh and
  • 00:58:30
    furthermore I think with the passage of
  • 00:58:31
    time more and more secular Israelis will
  • 00:58:34
    leave and go to Europe or the United
  • 00:58:36
    States uh given what's happening inside
  • 00:58:39
    Israel so I don't think there's much
  • 00:58:41
    hope uh that Israel will come to its
  • 00:58:43
    senses I think the bavers and the
  • 00:58:46
    smotes uh are the wave of the future U
  • 00:58:49
    that's point one point two is I just
  • 00:58:51
    wanted to talk a little bit about how
  • 00:58:54
    Israel's military situation has changed
  • 00:58:57
    over time as I told you uh when I was
  • 00:59:00
    young and studying conventional Wars uh
  • 00:59:03
    I studied the Israeli cases I mentioned
  • 00:59:05
    the 5667 and 73 Wars I also of course
  • 00:59:09
    studied the 48 War and the 82 invasion
  • 00:59:12
    of Lebanon and in those days the
  • 00:59:15
    Israelis fought Wars against other
  • 00:59:18
    countries and the wars mainly involved
  • 00:59:22
    engagements on the
  • 00:59:24
    battlefield but the threat environment
  • 00:59:27
    that Israel faces is fundamentally
  • 00:59:29
    different today it's not a conventional
  • 00:59:31
    war with Egypt or a conventional war
  • 00:59:33
    with Syria like it was in the old days
  • 00:59:36
    now the problem is they're facing these
  • 00:59:39
    adversaries who are armed to the teeth
  • 00:59:41
    with missiles rockets and cruise
  • 00:59:44
    missiles and they have no way of dealing
  • 00:59:47
    with that threat it's really quite
  • 00:59:48
    amazing I mean Hamas is not a regular
  • 00:59:52
    army by any means right Hezbollah
  • 00:59:56
    Hezbollah is not a country Hezbollah is
  • 00:59:58
    not Lebanon it's an important element of
  • 01:00:01
    the political equation in Lebanon for
  • 01:00:03
    sure but Hezbollah you know is a
  • 01:00:06
    political organization embedded inside
  • 01:00:09
    of Lebanon that has all these missiles
  • 01:00:13
    Rockets mortars and so forth and so on
  • 01:00:15
    and even some ground capability and it
  • 01:00:19
    just creates all sorts of problems for
  • 01:00:21
    Israel and now they're beginning to face
  • 01:00:24
    problems with the houthis because the
  • 01:00:25
    houth are getting the capability to hit
  • 01:00:28
    Israel with missiles and with drones and
  • 01:00:31
    this capability will only grow with time
  • 01:00:34
    so if you look at what happened
  • 01:00:36
    yesterday with Lebanon and Israel there
  • 01:00:39
    was no way that Israel could win the war
  • 01:00:42
    against Lebanon they can't invade
  • 01:00:45
    Lebanon I mean they could invade Lebanon
  • 01:00:48
    but it will not have a happy ending
  • 01:00:49
    which is why they're not seriously
  • 01:00:51
    talking about it and they can't take out
  • 01:00:53
    all of their missiles and Rockets and
  • 01:00:56
    that leaves them vulnerable to these
  • 01:00:58
    missiles and Rockets and by the way the
  • 01:01:00
    number of missiles and Rockets that
  • 01:01:01
    Hezbollah now has will grow over time
  • 01:01:05
    the accuracy of those missiles will grow
  • 01:01:08
    the yield of those missiles will grow
  • 01:01:11
    the intelligence capabilities of
  • 01:01:13
    Hezbollah to sort of pinpoint targets
  • 01:01:16
    that could then be programmed into these
  • 01:01:18
    missiles and Rockets will grow and it's
  • 01:01:21
    all the way of saying the threat from
  • 01:01:22
    Hezbollah will grow the threat from
  • 01:01:24
    Hamas um which has been obviously
  • 01:01:28
    severely hurt will grow back and the
  • 01:01:31
    houthis will come online the Iranians
  • 01:01:34
    are not going anywhere whether they bomb
  • 01:01:37
    them or not so the Israelis are in this
  • 01:01:40
    really dangerous threat environment that
  • 01:01:42
    is complete it's completely different I
  • 01:01:44
    I think it's fair to say it's completely
  • 01:01:46
    different than the threat environment
  • 01:01:48
    that they faced in the early years and
  • 01:01:51
    which they could quite easily handle
  • 01:01:55
    they they did not have much trouble as
  • 01:01:57
    you all know winning the 56 67 and even
  • 01:02:00
    the 73 War where they initially got
  • 01:02:02
    caught with their pants down right they
  • 01:02:05
    had a formidable conventional military
  • 01:02:07
    force that was good at winning those
  • 01:02:09
    Wars but that threat environment is
  • 01:02:11
    changed and they have no way of winning
  • 01:02:14
    these
  • 01:02:16
    wars last I guess a question for me
  • 01:02:19
    though is in terms of it looks like
  • 01:02:21
    these two big Wars uh can merge to some
  • 01:02:24
    extent because aik concern for me in
  • 01:02:26
    terms of uh the West joining in or
  • 01:02:30
    coming to the aid of Israel and larger
  • 01:02:32
    Regional War it's something that
  • 01:02:34
    includes the huis Hezbollah or
  • 01:02:37
    Palestinians or against Iran uh is that
  • 01:02:41
    uh the Russians and Chinese they look
  • 01:02:44
    like very likely at least the CH the
  • 01:02:46
    Russians would to some extent come to
  • 01:02:49
    the aid uh simply because we kind of
  • 01:02:52
    changed the rules of proxy wars as we
  • 01:02:54
    now you know
  • 01:02:56
    assisting with the invasion of Russian
  • 01:02:58
    territory something that was Unthinkable
  • 01:03:00
    before now obviously one of the ways
  • 01:03:02
    that Russians are seeking to retaliate
  • 01:03:04
    without triggering uh nuclear exchange
  • 01:03:06
    or third world war is by by yes we've
  • 01:03:10
    talked about supplying more weapons to
  • 01:03:12
    anyone who opposed the West now it seems
  • 01:03:15
    to me if the West wants to get involved
  • 01:03:16
    in a wider Regional war in the Middle
  • 01:03:18
    East Russia suddenly has a lot of
  • 01:03:20
    targets to pick in terms of supplying
  • 01:03:22
    intelligence weapons uh any War plan or
  • 01:03:26
    any of the things we're engaged in in
  • 01:03:28
    the war against Russia so it it seems
  • 01:03:33
    dangerous for us at this time to start a
  • 01:03:35
    huge Regional War especially as after we
  • 01:03:37
    exhausted so much of our own Weaponry to
  • 01:03:41
    well fight Russia so uh what do you two
  • 01:03:45
    see as or predict in terms of uh what
  • 01:03:49
    what would happen if we would actually
  • 01:03:51
    come to the aid of Israel in a wider
  • 01:03:54
    Regional War would
  • 01:03:56
    Russians and the Chinese come in to
  • 01:03:59
    assist yeah totis or the Iranians any of
  • 01:04:03
    the other
  • 01:04:05
    actors I'd defer to you
  • 01:04:08
    Alexander well I I I think I think that
  • 01:04:11
    there is going to be a major difference
  • 01:04:13
    from what we saw before because of
  • 01:04:14
    course when the West got to some extent
  • 01:04:18
    bogged down in Iraq the Russians kept
  • 01:04:22
    away they wanted good relations with the
  • 01:04:23
    West at that time they were not in a
  • 01:04:26
    strong position to intervene they didn't
  • 01:04:29
    have many Regional friends now
  • 01:04:31
    everything has changed they had the
  • 01:04:33
    incentive they have the means and they
  • 01:04:35
    have the friends and um I think that
  • 01:04:39
    from their point of view they probably
  • 01:04:42
    would want to intervene but they would
  • 01:04:44
    want to intervene in a particular way I
  • 01:04:46
    think they would not want an you know
  • 01:04:49
    uncontrolled escalation in the Middle
  • 01:04:50
    East which could backfire on themselves
  • 01:04:54
    I think what the Russians would probably
  • 01:04:57
    want and what they would try to do in
  • 01:05:00
    the Middle East is gain leverage over us
  • 01:05:03
    and I think that's probably the way they
  • 01:05:06
    would think just as they gained leverage
  • 01:05:08
    over the United States by supplying arms
  • 01:05:11
    to North Vietnam in the 1960s and were
  • 01:05:14
    able to trade that to get concessions in
  • 01:05:17
    the dayon process and I think with the
  • 01:05:20
    Chinese it's the same and strangely
  • 01:05:22
    enough getting the Chinese and the
  • 01:05:24
    Russians involved in the mid least might
  • 01:05:27
    actually be a way of creating some kind
  • 01:05:30
    of mechanism to bring this process under
  • 01:05:34
    some kind of control but that's not
  • 01:05:38
    going to happen happen very quickly or
  • 01:05:41
    very easily um I suspect Mr nanaku will
  • 01:05:45
    get his war and there'll be a massive
  • 01:05:47
    Smash and it'll only be then that we'll
  • 01:05:50
    see everybody Russians Chinese Americans
  • 01:05:53
    all the others working together to pick
  • 01:05:56
    up the
  • 01:05:57
    pieces I agree with that I would just
  • 01:06:00
    note that there is evidence that the
  • 01:06:02
    Russians are already aiding the Iranians
  • 01:06:05
    that they've been sending them air
  • 01:06:07
    defense systems electronic jamming
  • 01:06:10
    capabilities and so forth and so on uh
  • 01:06:13
    to in effect help them uh Stave off an
  • 01:06:17
    attack from the
  • 01:06:18
    Israelis uh so the the link is there uh
  • 01:06:23
    my guess is if a conflict ation broke
  • 01:06:26
    out a shooting match broke out between
  • 01:06:29
    the Iranians on one side and the
  • 01:06:31
    Israelis and the Americans and the
  • 01:06:32
    Europeans on the other side uh the
  • 01:06:34
    Russians would go to Great Lengths not
  • 01:06:36
    to get directly involved in the fighting
  • 01:06:40
    but to do everything possible to help
  • 01:06:42
    the Iranians and complicate things uh
  • 01:06:46
    for uh the United States uh I think you
  • 01:06:50
    have a really interesting situation this
  • 01:06:51
    comment Builds on what we were talking
  • 01:06:53
    about before where the Americans the
  • 01:06:56
    Iranians and I think the Russians don't
  • 01:06:58
    want a big war in the Middle East it's
  • 01:07:01
    the Israelis who really want a big war
  • 01:07:03
    in the Middle East and uh because the
  • 01:07:07
    United States can't put any meaningful
  • 01:07:09
    pressure on Israel to in effect cool its
  • 01:07:12
    Jets and stop this nonsense because of
  • 01:07:15
    the Israel Lobby uh the Israelis might
  • 01:07:18
    very well take us all down this road
  • 01:07:21
    that we don't want to go down you want
  • 01:07:24
    to you want to remember that April 1st
  • 01:07:26
    it was the Israelis who killed um a
  • 01:07:30
    number of people in the uh Iranian
  • 01:07:33
    Embassy in Damascus and precipitated the
  • 01:07:37
    April 14th attack by Iran against Israel
  • 01:07:40
    and then the Israeli attack against Iran
  • 01:07:42
    on April 19th and then it was again the
  • 01:07:45
    Israelis who on July 31st killed han han
  • 01:07:50
    in uh in tran and have precipitated
  • 01:07:56
    uh what we think is going to be uh a
  • 01:07:59
    major Iranian attack on Israel so you
  • 01:08:01
    can see the Israelis are doing
  • 01:08:03
    everything they can in terms of concrete
  • 01:08:05
    actions to drag Us in drag the Iranians
  • 01:08:08
    in and I think they wouldn't mind if the
  • 01:08:10
    Russians got involved either uh but all
  • 01:08:13
    three of these other players other than
  • 01:08:16
    the Israelis are interested in avoiding
  • 01:08:19
    a big war and it'll be interesting to
  • 01:08:22
    see just how successful the Israelis are
  • 01:08:25
    at us all
  • 01:08:26
    in well that brings me back to my
  • 01:08:29
    earlier point that if we really wanted
  • 01:08:31
    to prevent or avoid Iran striking uh
  • 01:08:35
    retaliating against Israel what we
  • 01:08:37
    really should be doing is reach out to
  • 01:08:40
    the Iranians and you know say okay we're
  • 01:08:42
    going to put restraints on the Israelis
  • 01:08:44
    if you do the same but instead we see
  • 01:08:47
    we're sending letters to the Iranians
  • 01:08:49
    where we blaming them for everything uh
  • 01:08:51
    we're not even condemning the Israeli
  • 01:08:53
    attack and and suggesting that
  • 01:08:55
    everything in the region is their for
  • 01:08:57
    their fault for supporting terrorism
  • 01:08:58
    without any of the context it just we're
  • 01:09:01
    signaling to the Iranians you have no
  • 01:09:03
    diplomatic partner we're not going to
  • 01:09:05
    constrain them uh so effectively leaving
  • 01:09:09
    the use of force as the only one again I
  • 01:09:11
    see the parallel to Russia in 2021 we
  • 01:09:14
    kept telling the Russians you're not
  • 01:09:15
    going to we're going to continue to
  • 01:09:17
    build up in Ukraine our military force
  • 01:09:19
    we're not going to implement Minsk we're
  • 01:09:21
    not going to give any security
  • 01:09:22
    guarantees anything you need to feel
  • 01:09:24
    secure we're just continue to mount more
  • 01:09:26
    and more weapons which could will
  • 01:09:28
    probably be used against you to take
  • 01:09:30
    crimeia be Force if you don't like it
  • 01:09:33
    you're going to have to use military
  • 01:09:34
    force this is effectively the message
  • 01:09:36
    we're sending them and um yeah I see the
  • 01:09:39
    same with Iran now we're not we're not
  • 01:09:41
    giving them anything and it's it's and
  • 01:09:45
    this is always interpreted as being you
  • 01:09:46
    know tough on them or this is how we're
  • 01:09:48
    deterring them but theer have to be
  • 01:09:51
    balanced with something else uh by
  • 01:09:54
    actually accommodating some of their
  • 01:09:55
    concerns and they do have concerns but
  • 01:09:58
    again I I I see what they want to do but
  • 01:10:01
    they're doing exactly the opposite
  • 01:10:04
    so I think one just very quickly Glenn
  • 01:10:07
    and Alexander one problem uh here uh is
  • 01:10:11
    that the irano phobia and the
  • 01:10:15
    russophobia in the west is so off the
  • 01:10:19
    charts that it leads naturally to
  • 01:10:22
    dividing the world up into two groups
  • 01:10:25
    bad guys good guys and if you divide the
  • 01:10:30
    world up into bad guys and good guys and
  • 01:10:32
    that's how you think about the world
  • 01:10:34
    it's very hard to be a first class
  • 01:10:36
    strategist right because you instead are
  • 01:10:39
    thinking about the world in terms of
  • 01:10:41
    right and wrong good and bad and that's
  • 01:10:45
    not what you want to do you want to pay
  • 01:10:46
    really serious attention to what your
  • 01:10:49
    adversaries legitimate interests are and
  • 01:10:53
    take them into account when you fashion
  • 01:10:55
    a policy but we are incapable of doing
  • 01:10:59
    it I think is actually more difficult to
  • 01:11:02
    do with regard to the Russians because
  • 01:11:04
    the Russian Russia phobia and the Putin
  • 01:11:07
    phobia is so potent it's also true with
  • 01:11:11
    regard to the Iranians uh it's just
  • 01:11:14
    amazing the extent to which the Iranians
  • 01:11:16
    are portrayed as the devil incarnate
  • 01:11:19
    which makes it impossible for us to have
  • 01:11:21
    any form of meaningful relations with
  • 01:11:23
    Iran and do anything thing to put uh uh
  • 01:11:28
    these problems that we have to bed I
  • 01:11:31
    completely agree I I I think was it
  • 01:11:34
    tally wrong who once said you know the
  • 01:11:35
    worst the worst thing a diplomat can
  • 01:11:38
    fall into is an excessive Zeal I think
  • 01:11:41
    we have far far too much Zeal uh um I
  • 01:11:44
    think this is what we have and that's
  • 01:11:46
    the problem it's clouding our judgment
  • 01:11:48
    and it's making real diplomacy
  • 01:11:50
    impossible because um in this kind of
  • 01:11:52
    atmosphere there very very heavy
  • 01:11:54
    atmosphere
  • 01:11:55
    um you can't negotiate with the devil
  • 01:11:58
    incarnate that's impossible it's
  • 01:12:00
    appeasement and that's the word that's
  • 01:12:02
    always brought out appeasement is not a
  • 01:12:06
    specific event that took place in the
  • 01:12:08
    1930s in Europe it's something that
  • 01:12:11
    applies all the time everywhere in every
  • 01:12:13
    place but especially when the Russians
  • 01:12:16
    and the Iranians are
  • 01:12:17
    concerned we've discussed this before I
  • 01:12:20
    have to say I think there has to be a
  • 01:12:22
    major smash a major cist
  • 01:12:25
    failure um
  • 01:12:28
    before I think we come to our senses
  • 01:12:31
    because I can't see any other way it's
  • 01:12:33
    going to
  • 01:12:34
    happen anyway that's me I'm sad to say I
  • 01:12:37
    think you're
  • 01:12:39
    right a good example I think is the
  • 01:12:41
    incoming um EU foreign policy Chief
  • 01:12:44
    kalas she was making the point that you
  • 01:12:46
    know Putin is a war criminal and we
  • 01:12:48
    cannot them diplomacy with war criminals
  • 01:12:51
    as we're legitimizing it so we cannot
  • 01:12:53
    talk to them and uh also suggesting that
  • 01:12:56
    you know peace also or victory has to be
  • 01:12:58
    breaking up Russia in smaller countries
  • 01:13:00
    because then there will be better so
  • 01:13:02
    this is uh yeah the insane path we're
  • 01:13:05
    currently on and um yeah criticizing it
  • 01:13:08
    of course would mean that you're picking
  • 01:13:10
    the wrong side you know going with evil
  • 01:13:11
    instead of good so it's a it's a very
  • 01:13:14
    childish way of looking at International
  • 01:13:16
    Affairs um anyways any final words
  • 01:13:19
    before we wrap this
  • 01:13:21
    up well I think we will I think we will
  • 01:13:24
    see it I I I'm I'm I'm sure we're going
  • 01:13:26
    to see a big Smash in the Middle East I
  • 01:13:29
    think the my own view about Ukraine and
  • 01:13:32
    I think this is follows what everyone
  • 01:13:34
    else else has been saying is we've
  • 01:13:36
    actually now passed the point of no
  • 01:13:39
    return in fact I think we could be
  • 01:13:42
    fairly soon in an end game situation
  • 01:13:45
    here and you know that an end of the war
  • 01:13:48
    might not actually be that far off
  • 01:13:50
    anymore the end game of course will be
  • 01:13:52
    very complicated and very difficult will
  • 01:13:55
    present all kinds of other problems but
  • 01:13:57
    I think that you know the Middle East
  • 01:14:02
    it's different and that might be the war
  • 01:14:04
    that we're talking about more than
  • 01:14:05
    Ukraine next year just
  • 01:14:07
    saying I
  • 01:14:09
    agree I I agree too that's sort of my
  • 01:14:12
    final word uh just to agree with
  • 01:14:17
    Alexander yes well uh hopefully we're
  • 01:14:21
    all wrong and um yeah this will and uh
  • 01:14:25
    both Wars quite peaceful soon but yeah I
  • 01:14:28
    doubt it anyways Professor mer armer
  • 01:14:30
    Alexander thank you so much I appreciate
  • 01:14:33
    it every time my pleasure Glenn great to
  • 01:14:36
    be with you great to be be with you both
  • 01:14:39
    of you um on this program
  • 01:14:45
    [Music]
Tags
  • Naher Osten
  • Ukraine
  • Militärische Eskalation
  • Russland
  • NATO
  • Israel
  • Iran
  • Westliche Politik
  • Strategische Analyse
  • Konfliktlösung