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[Music]
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Welcome to the minor consult where I
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speak with leaders shaping our world in
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diverse ways. Today I'm thrilled to be
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joined by Ariana Huffington. Ariana is a
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global entrepreneur and internationally
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recognized business leader. She founded
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the Huffington Post, now known as
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Huffpost, and she's authored numerous
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books exploring politics, society,
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history, and health. Now, Ariana is the
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CEO of Thrive Global, a behavioral
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change company that she founded focused
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on improving health and productivity.
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Recently, Thrive Global partnered with
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the Open AI startup fund to form a new
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company called Thrive AI Health. Its
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goal is to leverage AI to provide
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personalized health coaching. Ariana,
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thank you for being here today. Lloyd,
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it's so great to be with you. Ariana,
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you and I have had the opportunity to
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discuss the importance of health and
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well-being on several different
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occasions over the past several years.
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And for our listeners, what made you
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decide to pivot from the Huffington Post
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and start a company focused on wellness?
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So Lloyd, it really started with my own
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personal wakeup call when I collapsed
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from exhaustion,
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burnout, stress, and hit my head on um
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my desk, broke my cheekbone. And that
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was the beginning of my recognizing that
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burnout wasn't just my personal problem,
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but a global
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epidemic. So I started covering these
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issues on the Huffington Post. I wrote
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two books on the subject, Thrive and the
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Sleep Revolution. And then by 2016, I
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decided that I didn't just want to raise
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awareness, which I could have continued
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doing through a media company. I wanted
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to help people change
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behaviors. And as you know, changing
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behaviors is
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hard, but it's doable.
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And uh for that I needed to really delve
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into the science of behavior change and
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launch a new company that was a behavior
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change technology company and that's why
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I launched Thrive and it's been an
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amazing journey and it's also a journey
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that has now led us to working with um
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pharma companies, self-insured
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employers, and recognizing that these
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five key behaviors that Thrive works on,
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sleep,
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food, exercise, stress management, and
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connection are not just for
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prevention. They are also for optimizing
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the management of disease. And that's
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important to stress because when people
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talk about
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prevention, they think of it as
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something warm and fuzzy.
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And really what the great need of health
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care is is dealing with sickness. I
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mean, you've often talked, Lloyd, about
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the fact that we have a great sick care
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system, but not a health care system.
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But it's also important to recognize
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that when people are sick, behaviors
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matter a
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lot. So that's what we are focusing on
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now. And I feel there are a lot of
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tailwinds in the zeitgeist.
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So Ariana in the office there's a common
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belief that you have to sacrifice your
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health to be productive. But Thrive Glo
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Global's philosophy is that you can have
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both and in fact that well-being is
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linked to productivity. How did you
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shape Thrive Global around this idea and
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what's your response to the push back uh
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of this concept in the workplace
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culture? Well, you know, Lloyd, we've
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been living under the collective
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delusion that burnout is the price we
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pay for great performance, especially in
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Silicon Valley. You know, I was on the
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board of Uber and we saw firsthand that
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delusion in
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action. And the science is
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unequivocal that when people are burnt
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out, when they are
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depleted, they don't operate at their
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best. They don't make the best
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decisions. Um they are less empathetic.
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They are less um effective as leaders.
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We are now in the middle of this huge
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transition and you can see that
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transition um when you look at what
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people brag
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about when I was the beginnings of my
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career and for many years after people
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would brag I'll sleep when I'm dead you
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snooze you lose and now you have people
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bragging about how much sleep they got
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comparing you know their aura ring
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results and seeing
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How much deep sleep did you get? How
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much REM sleep did you get? What was
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your HRV? Did you get a crown? So, h we
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are in the middle of the shift.
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Obviously, there are many people who are
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still holding on to the idea that
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burnout is necessary for success. But a
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lot of people are moving ahead and I
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think the culture is shifting.
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That's great. So, it's been nine years
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uh nearly nine years since Thrive Global
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was founded. You founded it, and it's
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certainly blossomed during that period
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of time and continues to thrive and grow
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and expand on its impact. You've
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attracted high-profile investors,
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partnered with Fortune 500 businesses,
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and expanded your footprint globally.
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What's been your approach to growing
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Thrive Global? And maybe that could
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segue into Thrive Global and Thrive AI
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Health.
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So Lloyd, I'm a huge believer in
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partnerships. I believe that while you
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can build everything on your
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own, timing is
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everything. And partnerships allow you
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to move
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faster and achieve
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more quickly. And that's been our
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philosophy. Um we've partnered
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um with companies. We've uh partnered as
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you mentioned at the beginning with um
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um the open AI startup fund to launch um
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a company dedicated to building an AI
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health coach which is a partnership I'm
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really excited about because as you know
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AI is
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now in every part of healthcare. Yes.
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But the emphasis has been on improving
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diagnostics
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um
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accelerating the rate of drug
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development. What the AI health coach is
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about is bringing expert level
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coaching h to millions of people who
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don't have access to it. Right? Because
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as you know um a lot of people with
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resources are already looking at these
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daily
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behaviors. They are already optimizing
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what they eat and how they exercise and
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how they sleep and how they deal with
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their stress. But the vast majority of
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people in this country are not. Yes. And
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as you know we have 130 million people
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with chronic diseases.
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We have 30% of adolescents who are
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pre-diabetic. We have really
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unsustainable health care
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costs which are not going to become
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sustainable if people don't change
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behaviors. So that's really what we are
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focusing on now.
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And I
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find certain um
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stories um really alarming and inspiring
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at the same time to do differently and
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better. Um the latest story um I was
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reading in the New York Times is from um
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a nurse who was describing her rounds in
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West Virginia going from home to home
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visiting her patients who are all under
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65. They were not Medicare
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patients. And she
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describes story after story. I'll just
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give you one. Um she visits a patient
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who is uh diabetic and has heart disease
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and she describes her breakfast. She has
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just finished two
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Pepsis and something called peppermint
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combos which are kind of chips with dyes
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and 43 ingredients and and you look at
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that and you think this woman will never
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get well. Right. Right. And also, you
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know, her movements, we don't even call
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it exercise, are from the couch to the
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bathroom. Yes, we need to change this
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because, as you
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know, our behaviors, our lifestyle
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choices are more important than our
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genes. And yet they have not been
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treated with a scientific rigor that we
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need to treat them with in order to
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elevate them and make them kind of a
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companion of drugs, a companion of good
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medical care. It's not either
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or. That makes so much sense. Could
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could you walk us through an example?
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you the story that you mentioned to us
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there there's so many things so many
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opportunities there and challenges but
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there's the you raised the issue of diet
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for example and healthy eating uh the
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issue of exercise or even as you've
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emphasized I mean exercise is great but
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first start moving yes as a as a
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precursor or and and often times uh just
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increasing movement is enough to to
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dramatically change health trajectory.
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Could you walk through some of the steps
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that you're pursuing through Thrive AI
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Health and u you know some of the real
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world examples of how you know an AI
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health coach uh can help in the story
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that you mentioned to us and so many
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others. Absolutely. So the key Lloyd is
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to start with what Thrive calls micro
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steps. Yes. Because as you know even if
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doctors mention nutrition or movement or
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sleep to their patients they are more
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likely to use like generic
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recommendations like go on a
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Mediterranean
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diet or walk 10,000 steps. And the truth
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of the matter is most people don't know
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what a Mediterranean diet is. Sure.
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Sure. So we break it all
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down. We break it down into tiny steps
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and we start with swaps even. You can't
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tell
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people go from two Pepsis a day to
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water. Yes. You know, but you know there
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are healthier sodas that have less
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sugar. So you start somewhere. My point
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is that if you want people to sustain
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healthier habits, you need to start
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small. So you build that muscle of
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success. And we've worked on that
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behavior change methodology for over
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eight years now. Yes. So the the coach,
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the AI coach is trained not on the whole
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of the web,
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but on Thrive's behavior change
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methodology. There are thousands of
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micro steps
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um great content that is engaging. Just
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to give you an example, we have produced
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a recipe
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book, but we asked famous chefs like aa
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garden and to donate recipes that had
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five ingredients or less and nothing
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expensive. Good. So you can look at that
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recipe and it's something you can do.
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It's something that's not
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expensive. And having people learn to
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cook. Oh, here I have to show it to you.
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I'll send it to you, L. Oh, thank you.
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Thank you. That's wonderful. And that
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way you get people engaged in their own
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health and well-being. That's really
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exciting and and so impactful. you know
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what are some of the obstacles that
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you're navigating? A general problem in
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behavioral change has been adherence or
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what starts out as being engaging and
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and has people's interest then people
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lose interest they move on to other
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things or uh it just becomes cumbersome.
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So, how do you create an AI experience
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that inspires people to adopt behaviors,
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to stick with the behaviors and to
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really see the benefits in terms of
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their health from adopting new habits?
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Actually, seeing the benefits from these
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healthier habits is one of the ways to
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keep people adherent. Yes. And uh that's
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why if you start small, we call our
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micro steps too small to fail. and you
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begin to see results, you are likely to
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stay adherent, including with your
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medications because as you know, Lloyd,
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adherence is one of the big problems
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with even the most lifesaving medicines.
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Absolutely. Yes. And uh when we work
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with um users who are on
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medications because we are working with
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their daily behaviors and we are in
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their lives and know their routines and
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the coach is going to know all that
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they're much more likely to be adherent
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right you know Kevin Vulp and David Arsh
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who are behavior change economists who
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are on our scientific advisory board
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they call of this concept cept of a poly
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pill, a behavioral poly pill where your
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behaviors are
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augmenting the value of the medicine
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because even the most lifesaving
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medicine doesn't work if you don't take
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it. Exactly. And one of the other ways
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that we work
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um supplementing um and augmenting the
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benefit of medicines is by
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um helping people mitigate and navigate
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side effects,
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right? including you know with GLP1s we
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are we've created wraparound services
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for
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um GLP1s that we've brought to Eli Liy
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and Lily Direct and we are also bringing
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to different companies self-insured
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employees who work with because a lot of
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people who go on
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GIP1s they don't have like a training
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manual of how to eat Sure. So very often
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they just continue to eat junk but less
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junk.
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Right. Right. That really leads to
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terrible side
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effects. The same if they don't drink
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enough water. Yes. Or if they don't
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exercise um they are more likely to lose
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muscle mass. Right. So all these things
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you know need to be very clearly
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explained and you need a coach and
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obviously most people can't afford to
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have a personal coach. So that's where
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the AI AI coach comes in to help you h
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be more successful on whatever
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medication you're on including GLP1s.
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Ariana, on a broader scale, you've
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written about your belief that AI can
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help us become better people. Why do you
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think this is and how do you think this
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could happen? So, you know, um, Lloyd,
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when we talk about AI, we talk a lot
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about how can we make AI more human?
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Yes. How can we make AI reflect our
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human values?
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But I'm really very interested in how
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can we get AI to help us become more
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human because we're at a bit of a
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crossroads where um people are more
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polarized than ever, angrier than ever,
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anxious,
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depressed. So how can we have AI help us
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connect with the better angels of our
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nature?
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And it really starts with
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um how you see human nature. I mean I
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see all of us as being a
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mixture of good and bad of uh as
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Alexander Soljenitin put it the line
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between good and evil goes through each
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man's heart. M it's not that these are
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like all the good people and these are
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all the bad people. So how can we
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reinforce what is best in
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us? So I believe that the AI coach
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because it's going to be on
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boarded with
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um incredible data about each one of
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us because of this inc power
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of
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hyperpersonalization and incredible
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memory. You know as you know it will
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soon be able to have like trillions of
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data points. Yes. You know, if you go to
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the Greek philosopher admonition, know
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thyself, you know, well, the AI coach is
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going to know us much better than we
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know ourselves because we don't remember
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everything about ourselves. Sure. So it
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will be onboarded not just on our
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biometric data, lab data, medical data,
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but also our preferences like what foods
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we like, what helps us go to sleep, how
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we like to exercise, but also it's going
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to be on boarded on things you love that
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connect you with a deeper part of
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yourself. You play the cello, music is
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very important to you. So the coach will
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know that. So if you're in a moment of
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stress, it will feed you some cello
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music. You know, it will feed you
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something
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that resonates with you specifically.
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It can maybe it knows even people who
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consider themselves atheists. They may
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have a piece of poetry they love or a
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hymn from their
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childhood or a sacred text
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that can help connect us with something
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deeper in ourselves.
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So we see the coach obviously primarily
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helping people become
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healthier but also help helping people
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become more connected with their
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essence. Uh so that's why we call among
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ourselves the coach not just the health
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coach but the GPS for our soul.
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That's wonderful. You know Ariana,
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you're you're a recognized and
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accomplished leader. You've founded two
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successful international companies. What
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are some of the key lessons you've
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learned about leadership? And were there
00:20:47
any eyeopening mistakes that provided an
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epiphany?
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Oh, lots of
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them. Um, you know, just a very
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practical mistake. I think the biggest
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mistakes I have made as a leader are
00:21:03
hiring mistakes.
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Sure. you know, hiring the wrong person,
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especially in a senior
00:21:10
position is so draining.
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Um, you lose so much time. Yes. Um, and
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I I discovered as I analyzed my wrong
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hiring h
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decisions that every hiring mistake I
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made, I made when I was exhausted.
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Yes. You know, when you're exhausted and
00:21:35
you're interviewing for a job and all
00:21:38
you really want to do is cross this
00:21:40
thing off your to-do list. Yes. Yes. You
00:21:44
don't want to go interview somebody
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else. So, I kind of overruled the red
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flags, right, that a more intuitive and
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wiser part of myself was aware of.
00:22:00
So, that's just one thing. But the
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bigger thing, the the most important
00:22:04
thing for me as a leader is how can you
00:22:09
be in the eye of the
00:22:12
hurricane at any time, but especially
00:22:15
right now when we live in times of
00:22:18
radical uncertainty. Yes. And many many
00:22:22
challenges.
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How
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can can you, I, all of us as
00:22:32
leaders stay centered and unflapable in
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the middle of whatever is happening?
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Yes. Yes. And my uh favorite leadership
00:22:42
manual that I actually have on my
00:22:45
nightstand and I read at least a page or
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two every night even though I've read it
00:22:50
multiple times from beginning to end is
00:22:52
Marcus Aurelius's book meditations
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and the reason for that is that Marcos
00:22:59
Aurelios was the emperor of Rome for 19
00:23:03
years.
00:23:05
uh he faced everything, you know,
00:23:07
challenges, invasions,
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betrayals and he always managed to stay
00:23:14
in the eye of the hurricane and write
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about
00:23:18
it. And I love that because sometimes
00:23:21
when I tell my CEO friends, you know,
00:23:24
make sure you take time to recharge and
00:23:27
renew yourself because when we are
00:23:28
depleted and
00:23:31
exhausted, it's
00:23:32
much
00:23:34
easier to uh be
00:23:37
overreactive and over anxious about
00:23:40
everything. And they say to me, Arian, I
00:23:42
don't have time for that. My answer is,
00:23:45
well, you know, Marcos Aurelius was
00:23:47
busy, too.
00:23:50
he found time for that. So, and for me
00:23:54
that's the biggest biggest quality of
00:23:57
leadership
00:23:58
because then we can navigate anything
00:24:01
and handle anything and sometimes
00:24:04
leaders think they have to emulate the
00:24:07
frenetic pace of our times
00:24:10
and I think that's the worst thing we
00:24:12
can do. Sure. Sure.
00:24:15
On a related note, what do you think are
00:24:17
the most essential values for a company
00:24:20
to thrive?
00:24:22
So I think the most essential values are
00:24:25
to bring all
00:24:27
these micro steps
00:24:30
um to help leaders and every employee
00:24:35
um be most connected with their essence
00:24:39
and
00:24:40
uh and what makes them most effective to
00:24:44
bring them into the flow of work.
00:24:47
Right? How can we make it
00:24:49
easy?
00:24:52
because we need to eliminate the
00:24:55
friction and we need to minimize how
00:24:59
many healthy behaviors depend on our
00:25:01
willpower.
00:25:04
Yes. Um so let me give you one example
00:25:08
Lloyd. Sure.
00:25:10
Um reducing stress in our everyday lives
00:25:14
is
00:25:15
key. Eliminating stress is impossible.
00:25:19
Like there is a there is no life, no job
00:25:23
that does not include
00:25:25
stress. But we
00:25:27
can eliminate cumulative
00:25:30
stress by interrupting the stress
00:25:33
cycles. And there is a lot of
00:25:37
neuroscience that shows us that in 60 to
00:25:40
90 seconds of conscious breathing of
00:25:45
focusing on what makes us grateful and
00:25:48
brings joy into our lives. We can
00:25:53
interrupt the stress cycle. And that's
00:25:56
kind of probably my favorite feature on
00:25:59
the Thrive platform. And of course it's
00:26:01
going to be on the Thrive AI coach which
00:26:04
is 60-second resets we call them. Yes.
00:26:09
So the platform and the coach will come
00:26:11
with hundreds of preloaded resets to
00:26:15
focus on your breathing
00:26:18
[Music]
00:26:19
images to basically move us to a
00:26:21
different
00:26:23
modality. But my favorite is when you
00:26:25
create your own personal
00:26:28
resets. I have to create one for you,
00:26:31
Lloyd. You know, with the people in your
00:26:34
life who bring you joy, quotes that are
00:26:39
meaningful to you. I love the quote you
00:26:42
use, the French quote from your
00:26:45
commencement at Stanford about whoever
00:26:49
wherever you are planted, bloom with
00:26:51
grace,
00:26:53
right? I love that music that you love.
00:26:57
And then I promise you in 60
00:27:00
seconds you can suddenly be connected
00:27:04
with what you love about your life at
00:27:07
the very moment when you may not love
00:27:09
your life very much. I think that's so
00:27:12
important. And taking that theme a bit
00:27:15
further. You know, in a previous
00:27:16
fireside chat, Ariana, that you and I
00:27:19
had a few years ago, we talked about how
00:27:21
to manage the mental health challenges
00:27:23
associated with the pandemic. Um, since
00:27:26
that time, our country has continued to
00:27:28
see a deepening of our mental health
00:27:30
crisis with many people reporting
00:27:32
barriers to care. What do you think is
00:27:34
driving this increase in the mental
00:27:37
health crisis and what are some
00:27:38
approaches uh including AI that you
00:27:41
think could help us most as individuals
00:27:44
and as communities?
00:27:46
So you know um Lloyd um in partnership
00:27:50
with Stanford we created a thriving mind
00:27:53
curriculum right which has been
00:27:55
incredibly effective and uh which used
00:27:59
some of the best brain science work that
00:28:03
Stanford has done to actually help
00:28:06
employees
00:28:07
in dozens of multinational companies and
00:28:11
it's been unbelievably effective and I'm
00:28:14
very grateful to you and your teams for
00:28:16
that. What we are now seeing is
00:28:20
that maybe it's time for us to stop
00:28:23
separating mental health from physical
00:28:26
health. Exactly.
00:28:28
because there's so much um scientific
00:28:32
data that shows us that these behaviors
00:28:36
that I mentioned of how you sleep and
00:28:39
what you eat and how you move are very
00:28:43
central to also our depression, anxiety
00:28:46
and other mental health conditions. Yes.
00:28:50
And um you know I think the Mayo Clinic
00:28:53
was just given a big grant to study that
00:28:56
to study the impact of our metabolic
00:28:59
health right on our mental health right
00:29:03
so that's something that I'm really
00:29:05
excited about to see you know we know
00:29:10
it's so easy to see that when you are
00:29:13
sleepdeprived you are more likely to be
00:29:15
depressed Ariana this has been such a
00:29:17
wonderful conversation and I I want end
00:29:20
with two questions that I ask all my
00:29:22
guests. First, what do you think are the
00:29:24
most important qualities for a leader
00:29:26
today?
00:29:28
Well, definitely what I mentioned, you
00:29:31
know, being able to be in the eye of the
00:29:34
hurricane to model this behavior
00:29:38
because people look to leaders
00:29:42
um for how to be themselves, for
00:29:44
cultural permission,
00:29:47
to take care of themselves, to renew
00:29:50
themselves and also I think we are in a
00:29:53
very good place now compared to where we
00:29:57
were even a few years ago where leaders
00:30:00
realize
00:30:02
that having people in their
00:30:05
organization who may be brilliant or
00:30:10
amazing but they are really
00:30:14
um people who are not empathetic
00:30:18
um who are not able to be good um team
00:30:24
collaborators is really in the and
00:30:27
costing the business. You know, one way
00:30:31
I like to say that is no brilliant jerks
00:30:34
allowed.
00:30:37
You know, you may be brilliant, but if
00:30:39
you are toxic, Yeah. it's going to
00:30:43
affect everyone around you.
00:30:47
Exactly. And finally, what gives you
00:30:49
hope for the future?
00:30:52
Well, first of all, Lloyd, you know, I'm
00:30:54
a congenital optimist, and I love that
00:30:57
you are, too. Yes. You know, um I'm
00:31:00
Greek, so I think it's in our DNA.
00:31:06
Um and I believe that right now, you
00:31:10
know, there are so many
00:31:11
breakdowns and we can focus on the
00:31:15
breakdowns, but there are also a lot of
00:31:17
breakthroughs.
00:31:20
And one of the things I'm really most
00:31:24
excited
00:31:25
about is that people
00:31:28
are focusing again on life spiritual
00:31:33
dimension. That has always been very
00:31:36
important to me. And I wrote a book
00:31:39
actually don't worry if you haven't
00:31:41
heard about it. I think it's sold three
00:31:42
copies.
00:31:45
uh I wrote it in
00:31:48
1994 called the fourth instinct. Okay.
00:31:52
And the theme of the book was that most
00:31:55
biologist and psychologists talk about
00:31:58
three instincts to explain human
00:32:01
behavior. Uh
00:32:03
survival, sex, and power slash status.
00:32:09
But if you look at human behavior
00:32:11
through history, these three instincts
00:32:15
do not explain it. They do not explain
00:32:18
altruistic behavior. They do not
00:32:21
explain so many people putting their own
00:32:24
lives at risk to save Jews during the
00:32:27
Second World War. They they do not
00:32:30
explain incredible acts of heroism and
00:32:33
giving. And they do not explain mystical
00:32:36
experiences. that do not
00:32:39
explain what we all feel um when we
00:32:43
listen to a piece of music or um we give
00:32:47
birth or you know these great moments of
00:32:51
life. So I believe right now we've paid
00:32:55
such a heavy
00:32:56
price because in throwing away religion
00:33:00
we throw out with a baby with a
00:33:02
bathwater. Sure. And if you look at
00:33:05
what's happening in our culture, if you
00:33:07
look at the incredible political
00:33:10
polarization, I think people have
00:33:12
replaced
00:33:15
um politics with
00:33:18
religion or religion with politics
00:33:20
rather. Right? So um you know if you
00:33:24
think of
00:33:25
it if you if somebody doesn't share your
00:33:30
religious belief you tend to think of
00:33:33
them as
00:33:34
heretics and heretics should be burned
00:33:37
at the stake and we see that with
00:33:40
politics. If somebody doesn't share your
00:33:42
belief you want them canled.
00:33:45
So we need to look at all that and um
00:33:49
and we have some amazing numbers now
00:33:52
from the latest pure research poll of
00:33:55
how many people call themselves
00:33:57
spiritual and not religions. And for me
00:33:59
the key is to integrate that spiritual
00:34:02
dimension in our lives. It doesn't have
00:34:05
anyone. It doesn't have to be any
00:34:07
particular organized
00:34:08
religion. is just in some way or another
00:34:12
reconnecting with that deeper part of
00:34:15
ourselves.
00:34:18
Well, Ariana, this has been a
00:34:19
magnificent conversation as always. Um,
00:34:22
always learn a lot from our discussions
00:34:24
and I know that our listeners do and
00:34:26
will as well. And thank you for
00:34:29
listening to the minor consult with me,
00:34:31
Stanford School of Medicine Dean Lloyd
00:34:33
Miner. I hope you enjoyed today's
00:34:34
discussion with Ariana Huffington,
00:34:37
founder and CEO of Thrive Global. Please
00:34:41
send your questions by email to the
00:34:43
minor consult at the minor consult.com
00:34:45
and check out our website the minor
00:34:47
consult.com for updates, episodes, and
00:34:50
more. To get the latest episodes of the
00:34:53
minor consult, subscribe on Apple
00:34:55
Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
00:34:58
listen. Thank you so much for joining me
00:35:00
today. I look forward to our next
00:35:02
episode. Until then, stay safe, stay
00:35:05
well, and be kind.
00:35:09
[Music]
00:35:10
[Applause]
00:35:12
[Music]
