Gretchen Morgenson & Joshua Rosner — These Are the Plunderers - with Jeff Gerth
Zusammenfassung
TLDRIn einer Diskussion über ihr neues Buch 'These Are the Plunderers' beleuchten Gretchen Morgensen und Joshua Rosner die schädlichen Praktiken von Private-Equity-Firmen. Diese Firmen, die sich teils mit dubiosen Methoden bereichern, stehen im Zentrum einer Kontroverse um die wirtschaftliche und soziale Folgen ihrer Aktionen. Ein besonderer Fokus liegt auf den negativen Effekten im Gesundheitswesen, einschließlich der erhöhten Sterblichkeit in von Private-Equity geführten Pflegeheimen. Das Buch untersucht, wie solche Praktiken über drei Jahrzehnte zu einer Ausbeutung der Volkswirtschaft geführt haben. Zudem wird aufgezeigt, wie Pensionsfonds und andere institutionelle Investoren Teil dieses Systems sind. Die Autoren thematisieren die mangelnde Transparenz und Verantwortung der Finanzakteure, die von spekulativen Transaktionen profitieren, während die breite Öffentlichkeit benachteiligt wird.
Mitbringsel
- 📚 'These Are the Plunderers' thematisiert die Praktiken von Private-Equity-Firmen.
- ⚖️ Fokus auf die juristische und finanzielle Verantwortungslosigkeit im Unternehmensbereich.
- 🏥 Negative Auswirkungen von Private Equity im Gesundheitswesen.
- 💸 Pensionsfonds sind bedeutende Investoren in Private Equity.
- 📈 Diskussion über die ökonomische Ausbeutung der USA über drei Jahrzehnte durch Private Equity.
- 🏦 Unfaire Geschäftspraktiken werden aufgedeckt.
- 🚨 Ein Spitzenthema ist die Rolle von Private Equity bei Unternehmensübernahmen.
- 👨⚕️ Besondere Betroffenheit im Bereich der Pflegeheime und Gesundheitsversorgung.
- 🔍 Buch bietet einen investigativen Einblick in die Praktiken der Wall Street.
- 🤝 Mangelnde Transparenz und Verantwortung der Akteure wird kritisiert.
Zeitleiste
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Bitte schalten Sie Ihre Mobiltelefone aus und sprechen Sie in das bereitgestellte Mikrofon, wenn die Fragerunde beginnt. Nach der Fragerunde gibt es eine Buchsignierung mit den Autoren Gretchen Morgensen und Joshua Rosner, die ihr Buch 'These Are the Plunderers' über die Auswirkungen von Private Equity auf die amerikanische Wirtschaft vorstellen.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Gretchen Morgensen und Joshua Rosner erörtern die Geschichte und die Praktiken von Private-Equity-Firmen, die darauf abzielen, Unternehmen mit viel Fremdkapital zu übernehmen, Kosten zu senken und die Unternehmen innerhalb einer kurzen Frist gewinnbringend zu verkaufen. Ihre Methoden führen oft zu erheblichen wirtschaftlichen und personellen Schäden, die im Buch thematisiert werden.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Der Fokus des Buches liegt darauf, die Schäden und die Personen zu beleuchten, die durch solche Private-Equity-Transaktionen betroffen sind. Häufig sind es die Pensionsfonds, Arbeitnehmer und kleinere Gemeinden, die die negativen Folgen dieser Geschäftsmodell zu spüren bekommen, während die Milliardäre im Rampenlicht stehen.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Josh Rosner hebt hervor, dass viele der schädlichen Auswirkungen von Private-Equity-Geschäften von der breiten Öffentlichkeit kaum wahrgenommen werden, da diese Geschäfte in weniger transparenten und kontrollierten Märkten stattfinden. Gretchen Morgensen lobt die Fähigkeiten ihres Co-Autors bei der Recherche, die die Grundlage für die Fallstudien im Buch bildete.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Die Autoren diskutieren über die Vernachlässigung lebenswichtiger Investitionen im Gesundheitswesen durch Private-Equity-Firmen, die sich auf kurzfristige Gewinne konzentrieren und auf Kosten von Qualität und Langfristigkeit operieren. Der Versuch, in regulierte Branchen wie die Gesundheitsversorgung einzudringen, birgt massive Risiken für die betroffenen Patienten und Einrichtungen.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Ein Beispiel ist der Anstieg der Sterblichkeitsrate in von Private-Equity besessenen Pflegeheimen aufgrund von Sparmaßnahmen. Trotz strenger Regulierung finden diese Firmen Mittel und Wege, die Aufsicht zu umgehen. So ermöglichen es ihnen komplexe Unternehmensstrukturen, größere rechtliche Haftung zu vermeiden.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Private Equity greift stark in regulierte Branchen ein und nutzt diese für Gewinnsteigerungen. Der Fall von Blackstone, das angeblich nichts von illegalen Aktivitäten in ihren Schlachthof-Reinigungsfirmen wusste, verdeutlicht das moralische Dilemma und die rechtliche Abschottung dieses Geschäftsmodells.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Die Diskussion thematisiert auch prominente Figuren der Private-Equity-Branche wie Josh Harris und David Rubinstein und ihre umstrittenen Geschäftspraktiken. Harris’ Kauf des Washingtoner Fußballteams wirft Fragen über die Nutzung öffentlicher Mittel für Private Gewinne auf.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Besorgniserregend sind auch Praktiken wie der Verkauf von Immobilienbesitz zur Gewinnrealisierung bei gleichzeitiger Belastung der erworbenen Unternehmen durch Mietzahlungen, wie im Fall des Pflegeheim Betreibers ManorCare beschrieben wird. Mit ihren Investitionen steigern sie die Gesundheitskosten in den USA erheblich.
- 00:45:00 - 00:54:55
Auf die Frage nach der Reaktion auf das Buch sagen die Autoren, dass Whistleblowing in der Private-Equity-Branche selten ist, da die Akteure kaum altruistisch motiviert sind. Die aktuelle Marktdynamik und die Intransparenz machen es schwierig, die Auswirkungen dieser Investitionen auf lange Sicht zu durchschauen und zu regulieren.
Mind Map
Häufig gestellte Fragen
Wer sind die Autoren des Buches 'These Are the Plunderers'?
Die Autoren sind Gretchen Morgensen und Joshua Rosner.
Worüber handelt das Buch 'These Are the Plunderers'?
Es untersucht, wie eine kleine Gruppe von Wall-Street-Finanzierern die US-Wirtschaft mit Schulden und fragwürdigen Praktiken ausnutzt.
Was ist ein Hauptthema der Diskussion?
Die negativen Auswirkungen von Private-Equity-Praktiken auf die Wirtschaft und Gesellschaft.
Welche Beispiele für die Auswirkungen von Private Equity wurden genannt?
Erhöhte Sterblichkeit in Pflegeheimen und Probleme in der Gesundheitsversorgung.
Welche Rolle spielen Pensionsfonds bei den Investitionen in Private Equity?
Pensionsfonds investieren in Private Equity und haben Anreize, diese Investitionen zu verschweigen.
Weitere Video-Zusammenfassungen anzeigen
- 00:00:00would like to do some housekeeping first
- 00:00:02everyone please keep your cell phones
- 00:00:03and other devices silent to avoid
- 00:00:05disrupting the event and second when we
- 00:00:07get time to opening the floor for your
- 00:00:09questions please speak into the
- 00:00:10microphone which will be on that pillar
- 00:00:12over there
- 00:00:14um so everyone can hear your question
- 00:00:15and following the Q a we will have a
- 00:00:17signing over here at this table so if
- 00:00:19you have not already bought the book we
- 00:00:21have many copies behind our registers
- 00:00:22which our booksellers can help you
- 00:00:24purchase and that's going to be at the
- 00:00:26front of the store and we ask you to
- 00:00:28line up at the pillar and we will come
- 00:00:30by to ask for your name for
- 00:00:31personalization once the event is
- 00:00:33complete we kindly ask that you please
- 00:00:35fold up your chairs and lean them
- 00:00:36against something sturdy so now without
- 00:00:39further Ado I I'm excited to welcome
- 00:00:41Gretchen morgensen and Joshua Rosner
- 00:00:44today to discuss their new release these
- 00:00:46are the plunderers how private Equity
- 00:00:48ruins and wrecks America in this book
- 00:00:51Pulitzer prize-winning journalist and
- 00:00:53best-selling author Gretchen morgensen
- 00:00:55with co-author Joshua Rosner unmasked
- 00:00:58the small group of celebrated Wall
- 00:00:59Street financers who use excessive debt
- 00:01:02and dubious practices to undermine our
- 00:01:04nation's economy while enriching
- 00:01:06themselves private Equity these are the
- 00:01:09plunderers as an important book that
- 00:01:10lucidly and maddeningly traces the
- 00:01:1230-year history of corporate takeovers
- 00:01:15in America revealing the many ways that
- 00:01:17these billionaires have bled our economy
- 00:01:19Gretchen morgensen is the senior
- 00:01:21Financial reporter for the NBC News
- 00:01:23investigative unit a former stockbroker
- 00:01:26she won the Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for
- 00:01:28her reporting on Wall Street previously
- 00:01:31at the New York Times of the Wall Street
- 00:01:33Journal she and co-author Joshua Rosner
- 00:01:35wrote The New York Times bestseller
- 00:01:37reckless endangerment how I outsize
- 00:01:39ambition greed and Corruption lead to
- 00:01:42economic Armageddon about the mortgage
- 00:01:44crisis Joshua Rosner is managing
- 00:01:46director at independent research
- 00:01:48consultancy Graham Fisher and Company
- 00:01:50advising Regulators policy makers and
- 00:01:53institutional investors on Banking and
- 00:01:55Financial markets he has been
- 00:01:56interviewed on PBS CBS NBC CNN Bloomberg
- 00:02:00CNBC and Fox News and featured in or
- 00:02:03written for the New York Times Wall
- 00:02:05Street Journal Reuters The Economist
- 00:02:08Barons and Huffington Post Morgan and
- 00:02:10Rosner will be in conversation with Jeff
- 00:02:12girth a veteran investigative reporter
- 00:02:14who spent three decades at the New York
- 00:02:16Times in 1999 he won a Pulitzer Prize
- 00:02:19for reporting with New York Times
- 00:02:20colleagues on the corporate sale of
- 00:02:22American Technology to China with U.S
- 00:02:25government approval despite National
- 00:02:26Security risks now a freelance writer in
- 00:02:29January the Columbia journalism review
- 00:02:30published Gertz encyclopedic look at one
- 00:02:33of the most consequential moments in
- 00:02:35American Media history the U.S media's
- 00:02:37coverage of Trump's alleged role in
- 00:02:38Russia's meddling in the 2016 election
- 00:02:40everyone please join me in welcoming
- 00:02:42Gretchen Joshua and Jeff the politics
- 00:02:44and prose
- 00:02:46foreign
- 00:03:01welcome
- 00:03:04good to see everyone
- 00:03:06um I'm gonna be moderating and
- 00:03:08I guess first I want to make a little
- 00:03:10disclosure Gretchen and I
- 00:03:12former colleagues competitors no and
- 00:03:17still friends well we did compete for a
- 00:03:19while
- 00:03:25is this better okay great
- 00:03:29um let's start why why did you guys
- 00:03:32decide to do this book and why now
- 00:03:35well first of all what we wanted to try
- 00:03:38to explain was what has been happening
- 00:03:41over the last 30 years really since the
- 00:03:45takeovers of in Corporate America sort
- 00:03:47of burst onto the scene with the RJR
- 00:03:50Nabisco deal in the late 80s
- 00:03:54and it's continued on until this day and
- 00:03:58it will continue but it has taken on
- 00:04:01some aspects that we really felt were
- 00:04:04important to explain to connect the dots
- 00:04:07so people know that sort of Devastation
- 00:04:10that has occurred because of these
- 00:04:13transactions and because of the way
- 00:04:16they're structured so for starters let's
- 00:04:19begin by explaining what these
- 00:04:22transactions are and what private Equity
- 00:04:24is it really is the old-fashioned
- 00:04:27leveraged buyouts from the 1980s where
- 00:04:32financiers use a lot of debt to buy a
- 00:04:36company
- 00:04:37and then they hope to make it more
- 00:04:41efficient and sell it within five to
- 00:04:45seven years and so it has a couple of
- 00:04:48aspects that are quite
- 00:04:50damaging one is the heavy use of debt
- 00:04:54and the other is the short-term nature
- 00:04:57of the purchase so what we wanted to do
- 00:05:00here and now
- 00:05:03is to explain
- 00:05:05who is on the other side of these
- 00:05:08transactions who are hurt by them
- 00:05:11because we know all about the folks who
- 00:05:15are
- 00:05:16celebrated and almost worshiped by some
- 00:05:20of the financial media who are the
- 00:05:22billionaires Behind these transactions
- 00:05:25we learn about them all the time in the
- 00:05:27media
- 00:05:29but what we don't learn about are the
- 00:05:31people who are hurt by their activities
- 00:05:34the people whose pensions are devastated
- 00:05:38the people who are fired
- 00:05:41the people who really don't earn the
- 00:05:45returns that they pretend to to make so
- 00:05:49we're really focusing on the impact of
- 00:05:52these financiers and their transactions
- 00:05:55and we've had 30 years to study and now
- 00:06:00we can begin to really quantify the
- 00:06:03damage
- 00:06:04yeah and I would add that you know we
- 00:06:07all have become very aware that there's
- 00:06:11something going on that is the
- 00:06:13devastation of Main Street the killing
- 00:06:16of small business the killing of
- 00:06:17innovation and yet we're all sort of
- 00:06:21unaware of exactly what's driving it yes
- 00:06:24there are big box stores and companies
- 00:06:26that are have gone public and so we've
- 00:06:28seen consolidation and haven't seen a
- 00:06:30lot of enforcement of Anti-Trust laws as
- 00:06:33we once did
- 00:06:35but we're also sort of missing that
- 00:06:37there's this less transparent less clear
- 00:06:40more hidden part of the markets that
- 00:06:43don't have the reporting requirements
- 00:06:45that don't have the transparency that
- 00:06:47don't have the market oversight and
- 00:06:49Market disciplined and in fact there's
- 00:06:52an Unholy alliance between the people
- 00:06:54whose money they manage pensions
- 00:06:59endowments and the managements
- 00:07:02themselves and there's not really the
- 00:07:04accountability
- 00:07:07before we get to sort of the meat and
- 00:07:10potatoes
- 00:07:12I'd like the two of you to just explain
- 00:07:14how you sort of work together
- 00:07:16collaborate I mean
- 00:07:18you're a journalist you're sort of a
- 00:07:20financial analyst you did a book
- 00:07:22together you know more than a decade ago
- 00:07:25how do you divide up the reporting the
- 00:07:28writing what happens if you disagree
- 00:07:30about something uh give us a little bit
- 00:07:32of the sausage meal we have a really
- 00:07:34disagree we never disagree we're lucky
- 00:07:36that way I don't know why we never
- 00:07:39really don't ever disagree but so Josh
- 00:07:42is a really amazing
- 00:07:44um researcher and really fantastic
- 00:07:46analyst whom I met when I was at the New
- 00:07:49York Times
- 00:07:50um trying to understand
- 00:07:51what would become the mortgage crisis
- 00:07:54and Josh really put his finger on that
- 00:07:57well before anybody else did he wrote a
- 00:08:01very important academic paper on that
- 00:08:03that was completely predictive of what
- 00:08:06was going to happen so then I became
- 00:08:08aware of just how uh perspicacious he is
- 00:08:13and
- 00:08:14when it came time to try to explain how
- 00:08:18and why the 2008 crisis had occurred I
- 00:08:21said do you want to do a book together
- 00:08:22and if I remember correctly I think I
- 00:08:25think our decision was only if we pull
- 00:08:28no punches and don't really care if it
- 00:08:30sells a copy and that was our first
- 00:08:32massive agreement on right sort of a
- 00:08:35writing decision and we also amazingly
- 00:08:37stayed friends after the process which
- 00:08:40is not always the case with co-authors
- 00:08:43so yeah and so okay so how do we do it
- 00:08:47you know and I think it depends so on
- 00:08:49Reckless it really was much more of a
- 00:08:52collaborative writing process on this
- 00:08:54book it was much more Gretchen writing
- 00:08:56and me doing a lot of the research
- 00:08:57Gretchen doing a lot of the healthcare
- 00:08:59research most of the healthcare research
- 00:09:01yeah I know I noticed in reading the
- 00:09:03footnotes that Gretchen did a lot of the
- 00:09:07interviewing
- 00:09:09um though you show up
- 00:09:10a little bit but so you did more sort of
- 00:09:14the legwork and the the Josh is a really
- 00:09:17amazing Digger and so he'll come he'll
- 00:09:19say oh I've got a great example we've
- 00:09:21got to do this story you know so what we
- 00:09:23were looking for were ways to
- 00:09:25really
- 00:09:27um personify and really personalize the
- 00:09:31impacts that these transactions have on
- 00:09:34everyday people and so there are quite a
- 00:09:38few to choose from you know it's not
- 00:09:40like there aren't but
- 00:09:42choosing the right ones and that that
- 00:09:44had really all of the compelling factors
- 00:09:47that would really
- 00:09:49tell the story and make people
- 00:09:52understand just what the impact of these
- 00:09:55Financial financiers are and that's and
- 00:09:56it really is it's these are stories
- 00:09:59hopefully you'll read the book but these
- 00:10:01are stories of obviously not only
- 00:10:03employees they're stories of towns
- 00:10:06they're stories of Industries they're
- 00:10:08stories of great Devastation pillage and
- 00:10:12plunder where the public is completely
- 00:10:16unaware because for the most part
- 00:10:18I would suspect everyone in this room
- 00:10:20has interacted with a private Equity
- 00:10:22firm's product today and I would suspect
- 00:10:26that almost none of the people in this
- 00:10:28room are aware of which companies they
- 00:10:31supported today that are owned by
- 00:10:32private equity
- 00:10:33all right so you use the word plunder
- 00:10:36which of course is the title of your
- 00:10:38book it's a it's a strong evocative word
- 00:10:43how did you come up with the title and I
- 00:10:45I know
- 00:10:47coincidentally I guess there's another
- 00:10:49book out with a similar title
- 00:10:52um not as well done as this book I
- 00:10:54should add but
- 00:10:56um so how did you come up with the title
- 00:10:58or was that the Publisher's brainchild
- 00:11:00or give us a little bit of that was
- 00:11:03probably the longest part of the world
- 00:11:05but we agreed that this this is this is
- 00:11:09a um an approach that is so devastating
- 00:11:12for
- 00:11:13I I like to call it the circle of pain
- 00:11:16is very large for everyone in these
- 00:11:21transactions except for the people who
- 00:11:24are doing them and so
- 00:11:27what does that mean that means that
- 00:11:30these people are extracting
- 00:11:32wealth from everyone along the way in
- 00:11:37the process and to me that sounds like
- 00:11:40plundering okay you know let's call it
- 00:11:43like we see it why it means words and
- 00:11:47and and there's been such a a perversion
- 00:11:50even of
- 00:11:51the leveraged buyouts since the Gordon
- 00:11:54gecko greed is good ERA of the 80s where
- 00:11:58the goal used to be to take a part of a
- 00:12:00company private to right size it cut
- 00:12:04costs improve efficiencies and then make
- 00:12:07your money by selling it back to the
- 00:12:09market in five to seven years we've
- 00:12:11actually jumped way past that now it's
- 00:12:13about how we can take the money out of
- 00:12:16the company
- 00:12:17over the next five to seven years so we
- 00:12:20don't really care if it survives or not
- 00:12:22and that is plunder
- 00:12:25um
- 00:12:26so I one of the things I thought most
- 00:12:29interesting in the book The sort of from
- 00:12:32afar people think of private Equity is
- 00:12:35going in buying up a company and
- 00:12:39downsizing and squeezing and just sort
- 00:12:41of
- 00:12:42getting the most you can out of it but
- 00:12:45you write a lot about the movement of
- 00:12:49private Equity into areas like health
- 00:12:51care
- 00:12:52and nursing homes one of the things I
- 00:12:55thought was most interesting that I
- 00:12:58didn't know about and that everybody
- 00:13:00here
- 00:13:02has some intersection with or hopefully
- 00:13:04not emergency rooms the extent to which
- 00:13:07private Equity controls
- 00:13:10the operation of emergency rooms at
- 00:13:12hospitals so it's not just you know it's
- 00:13:16bad enough that somebody loses their job
- 00:13:18because private Equity comes in and
- 00:13:21Cuts corners
- 00:13:22but when you're talking about patience
- 00:13:25and you're talking about health care
- 00:13:27that's that's really at another level so
- 00:13:30talk a little bit about how private
- 00:13:32equity
- 00:13:33started to move into this area and what
- 00:13:36some of the consequences are well health
- 00:13:38care is such an enormous part of our
- 00:13:42country's GDP it's currently 17 percent
- 00:13:46of the gross domestic product
- 00:13:49so um these folks who run these firms
- 00:13:53they look for big pools of money that
- 00:13:56they can tap into so Healthcare is an
- 00:13:59obvious example of that
- 00:14:01but it is also an obvious example of a
- 00:14:05business of an industry of a practice
- 00:14:08that should put Patients First and not
- 00:14:12profits and so you have this deep seated
- 00:14:15conflict between what you want to
- 00:14:19actually have as an outcome which is
- 00:14:22better health care
- 00:14:24you know better mortality whatever
- 00:14:27outcome you're looking for you have that
- 00:14:29pitted against higher profits and the
- 00:14:33two just do not meet the two just are
- 00:14:37incompatible
- 00:14:39and so when they started going into it's
- 00:14:43quite interesting because when private
- 00:14:45Equity started to go into health care it
- 00:14:48was in the early sort of 2000 2005
- 00:14:52period and we actually actually at that
- 00:14:57moment had a member of Congress asking
- 00:15:00for a report on what would happen
- 00:15:04if the United States had a pandemic
- 00:15:09and what this report found
- 00:15:12was that hospitals needed to invest
- 00:15:15in ventilators in PPE they needed to
- 00:15:20invest they were they were going to be
- 00:15:22behind the eight ball if there was ever
- 00:15:24a pandemic now the pandemic this was
- 00:15:262005 or six the pandemic was off in the
- 00:15:29future
- 00:15:30but in fact it proved to be correct this
- 00:15:33report we did need more ventilators more
- 00:15:36PPE but at the time of the report
- 00:15:41nobody wanted to make those Investments
- 00:15:43and part of the reason why is because
- 00:15:45private Equity had decided that Health
- 00:15:47Care was going to be one of their main
- 00:15:50sources of income and gains for them so
- 00:15:53they started buying up
- 00:15:55doctor's practices they started getting
- 00:15:59into these staffing companies that staff
- 00:16:02emergency departments and so they've
- 00:16:05made tremendous I mean a trillion
- 00:16:07dollars of investments in health care
- 00:16:11so that now they have really they have
- 00:16:14immense dominance in many parts of the
- 00:16:17industry and we are seeing the impacts
- 00:16:22there is one study that we cite in the
- 00:16:24book which was devastating about nursing
- 00:16:26homes which found that over a period of
- 00:16:29time I think it was a 10-year period
- 00:16:33the mortality rates of residents of
- 00:16:36nursing homes that are owned by private
- 00:16:38Equity were 10 percent greater than
- 00:16:42those owned by other owners even for
- 00:16:46profit owners the private Equity owners
- 00:16:50had 10 percent greater mortality rates
- 00:16:53twenty thousand lives were estimated to
- 00:16:56have been lost and the academics that
- 00:16:59did the study said
- 00:17:01it was because of cutting staff cutting
- 00:17:05costs and these are the kinds of
- 00:17:07conflicts that you have with health care
- 00:17:10and and I think it's really important
- 00:17:12just to step back and set the stage it's
- 00:17:15one thing
- 00:17:16when you're taking over
- 00:17:18a consumer brand you know a food
- 00:17:21manufacturer a few Food business and
- 00:17:25you're trying to maximize returns and
- 00:17:29cut costs there are certain sectors of
- 00:17:32the economy that we've always seen as
- 00:17:34sort of sacred Education Health Care
- 00:17:38these are industries that were never
- 00:17:40intended to be run to maximize profits
- 00:17:43they were actually intended to be run
- 00:17:45for outcomes
- 00:17:47and so we became late and late later and
- 00:17:50later and later in this leveraged buyout
- 00:17:53cycle so what started as arbitraging
- 00:17:55things like private Market valuations
- 00:17:57versus Public Market valuations to take
- 00:18:00over companies like rgr RJR ended up
- 00:18:03moving into energy ended up moving into
- 00:18:06other areas and we became
- 00:18:08late cycle there's no longer a
- 00:18:11target-rich environment and so the last
- 00:18:13areas where there's a lot of margin for
- 00:18:15them to extract became things like
- 00:18:18education and health care and they've
- 00:18:20done so
- 00:18:21and also don't forget Jeff that Medicare
- 00:18:25is an enormous Factor here and we have
- 00:18:28seen a tremendous number of Medicare
- 00:18:31fraud cases involving private Equity
- 00:18:34companies well that that gets me to
- 00:18:37my next question which is
- 00:18:40Health Care is very heavily regulated
- 00:18:43how in your book I think does a really
- 00:18:46interesting job of describing some of
- 00:18:49the corporate structuring
- 00:18:51that goes on
- 00:18:53to sort of cauterize the wound or keep
- 00:18:57the regulation
- 00:18:58sort of at Bay can can you go into that
- 00:19:01a little bit because it seems counter
- 00:19:04intuitive that they're moving into an
- 00:19:07area of the economy that's so heavily
- 00:19:09regulated and yet they still continue to
- 00:19:12operate in the same fashion but that
- 00:19:14that largely goes to the concentration
- 00:19:18issues and so we've got a regulatory and
- 00:19:23statutory structure that is not
- 00:19:25right-sized for this world this
- 00:19:27environment we're still looking at
- 00:19:29transactions on a you know local level
- 00:19:32and so you need to actually consolidate
- 00:19:36um above is it 50 million or 100 50 it's
- 00:19:39100 billion uh 400 million before it
- 00:19:42actually ends up a control of a local
- 00:19:44economy and so
- 00:19:46you're you've been watching the
- 00:19:48consolidation of regions where they can
- 00:19:50stab below that threshold so they're not
- 00:19:52triggering any Federal
- 00:19:55uh um oversight well but also say
- 00:20:00nursing homes so like Carlisle owned a
- 00:20:03nursing home chain I don't know hundreds
- 00:20:05however many nursing homes and if there
- 00:20:07are problems at the nursing home they're
- 00:20:10heavily regulated whether it's through
- 00:20:12Medicare or the local state or or
- 00:20:15whatever but
- 00:20:17if I'm remembering correctly from your
- 00:20:19book there the they structure it so that
- 00:20:22each nursing home
- 00:20:23is separately owned so go into that
- 00:20:26corporate structure of these
- 00:20:27transactions is always done to protect
- 00:20:30the private Equity Firm and to keep the
- 00:20:33private Equity Firm away from any kind
- 00:20:36of you know regulatory action any you
- 00:20:39know bankruptcy I mean if they are
- 00:20:41touched in those kinds of in bankruptcy
- 00:20:43cases but
- 00:20:45uh the nursing home industry for
- 00:20:47instance each nursing home is a separate
- 00:20:49LLC and so if you have you know in The
- 00:20:53Manor Care situation you have a company
- 00:20:57that is directing you know 50 to 100
- 00:21:00nursing homes to do something a certain
- 00:21:02way which in this case the government
- 00:21:04alleged was fraudulent
- 00:21:07um
- 00:21:08particular nursing home is a separate
- 00:21:11entity and so trying to tie them all
- 00:21:14together and get up to the parent or get
- 00:21:17up to the private Equity Firm is
- 00:21:19extremely challenging in some ways it's
- 00:21:21it's not a this isn't a perfect example
- 00:21:24but it's almost an inversion of what we
- 00:21:26see in the banking industry right where
- 00:21:29most banks operate at the federal level
- 00:21:31through a bank holding company and the
- 00:21:33bank holding company is required by law
- 00:21:36by regulation to be a source of strength
- 00:21:39for the subs here we actually have no
- 00:21:42expectation of the parent being a source
- 00:21:45of strength which allows the parent to
- 00:21:47bankrupt that company let it go after
- 00:21:50they've taken all they can out of it you
- 00:21:52also have a situation Jeff where
- 00:21:55when there is bad news about a company
- 00:21:58that is private Equity owned the private
- 00:22:01Equity owner almost always claims
- 00:22:04ignorance I had no idea this was going
- 00:22:08on gambling in the casino I mean so
- 00:22:11we've recently seen some absolutely
- 00:22:14horrific stories about
- 00:22:16a company
- 00:22:18that cleans slaughterhouses called pssi
- 00:22:23and they were hiring children to work in
- 00:22:28this operation of cleaning
- 00:22:31slaughterhouses at night
- 00:22:34and this was a company owned is a
- 00:22:36company owned by Blackstone one of the
- 00:22:39most if not the most prestigious private
- 00:22:41Equity firms in the country
- 00:22:43and so private you know Blackstone says
- 00:22:46we had no idea they are hiring children
- 00:22:49to clean these slaughterhouses well the
- 00:22:52the whole business model unfortunately
- 00:22:55you see incentivizes people to take
- 00:22:58these kinds of risks it incentivizes
- 00:23:00managers to push the envelope because
- 00:23:03they know they need to make the number
- 00:23:05they know they need to have earnings go
- 00:23:08up X percent because they want to sell
- 00:23:11that company in five years or or more
- 00:23:14often not even necessarily care about
- 00:23:16selling it but special dividend money
- 00:23:19out of that company back to right the
- 00:23:22private Equity so there's all of these
- 00:23:24perverse incentives actually involved
- 00:23:27here it sounds like what you're
- 00:23:28describing is
- 00:23:30the risk taking takes place across the
- 00:23:33Enterprise but the accountability if
- 00:23:37something goes wrong is stuck with the
- 00:23:39loan operator and if things go well the
- 00:23:42money the profits flow upstream and it's
- 00:23:45important it's not just about debt the
- 00:23:47debt isn't with the private Equity Firm
- 00:23:49when they buy a company with debt the
- 00:23:52debt is on the company that they're
- 00:23:54buying so they are forcing the company
- 00:23:57to raise costs they're forcing the
- 00:23:59company to have a harder time remaining
- 00:24:01solvent and we watch and we go through
- 00:24:05several of these examples but in one of
- 00:24:08the examples in the book there's a
- 00:24:09company
- 00:24:11Miranda which is an aluminum company
- 00:24:13where they piled it up with debt and
- 00:24:16within six months six months all of the
- 00:24:19equity that they put into the deal
- 00:24:20they'd already extracted in special
- 00:24:23dividend so they had they were at that
- 00:24:25point playing with the casinos money
- 00:24:28since we're here in Washington
- 00:24:31I wanted to ask you about a couple of
- 00:24:33local
- 00:24:35private Equity folks one of whom is
- 00:24:38a savior here about to buy the football
- 00:24:43team Josh Harris
- 00:24:45you go into him a little bit in your
- 00:24:47book he was with Apollo and one of the
- 00:24:50co-founders
- 00:24:52I find it interesting that the NFL
- 00:24:56prohibits private Equity firms from
- 00:24:59buying a football team
- 00:25:01somehow The Regulators can't get their
- 00:25:05hands on private Equity but the NFL's
- 00:25:07figured out how to keep them at Bay
- 00:25:10but so Josh Harris is
- 00:25:13on the verge of buying the football team
- 00:25:16and I can't help but point out that
- 00:25:19according to ESPN
- 00:25:21he's bringing in some investors and he's
- 00:25:24promising them that the state of
- 00:25:26Virginia is going to contribute up to a
- 00:25:29billion and a half dollars for a stadium
- 00:25:31in Virginia
- 00:25:33so that he could pay for himself correct
- 00:25:36so talk a little bit about about Josh
- 00:25:39Harris and we'll get to a couple of
- 00:25:41other local Washington private Equity
- 00:25:43folks but let's let's start with Josh
- 00:25:45because he's in the news right now well
- 00:25:48I'm not a football person so I can't
- 00:25:50really help you on the football team but
- 00:25:52I do know that these folks um you know
- 00:25:54buy
- 00:25:56um uh Toys these are you know the
- 00:25:58football team is of course it has huge
- 00:26:00cachet and once you've you know been in
- 00:26:03private equity for quite a while you've
- 00:26:05generated a lot of money and so you have
- 00:26:07to deploy that money and what better way
- 00:26:09to do that than to buy a football team
- 00:26:12and then you know you are
- 00:26:15upping the Andy and importance in
- 00:26:17American society that's talked a little
- 00:26:19bit though about his background right so
- 00:26:21so transfer us as a as a as a um you
- 00:26:25know co-founder of Apollo with Leon
- 00:26:27black
- 00:26:28um was really on the scene of a very
- 00:26:31early on we start the book with the um
- 00:26:33the failure of a life insurance company
- 00:26:36in California called executive life
- 00:26:38which is many years ago 1991 and
- 00:26:42um Apollo scooped up the assets of this
- 00:26:45company
- 00:26:46um along with a French bank they were
- 00:26:48advising and made a quick three billion
- 00:26:51dollars almost overnight and so this is
- 00:26:55what put Apollo on the map with another
- 00:26:57Washington luminary
- 00:27:00oh yes arranging the sale at essentially
- 00:27:03a 50 this was John hiramendi who is the
- 00:27:06uh a representative from California
- 00:27:08congressman from he was he was the
- 00:27:10California insurance commissioner who
- 00:27:13chose that rather than selling it off in
- 00:27:16pieces or maximizing value he was going
- 00:27:19to sell off the executive life portfolio
- 00:27:21essentially in one Fell Swoop at what
- 00:27:25was you know a Bargain Basement price
- 00:27:27leaving about three billion dollars of
- 00:27:29profit on the table that was realized
- 00:27:31almost immediately upon and the people
- 00:27:33who were the policyholders got the shaft
- 00:27:37um but anyway so this was the basis of
- 00:27:39the founding of Apollo right sort of the
- 00:27:42original sin one of my uh sources
- 00:27:45described it as and so you know we think
- 00:27:48that's an important story to tell
- 00:27:50because the people on the other side of
- 00:27:52that transaction were left with much
- 00:27:56less in the way of what they were owed
- 00:27:58in their policy um these were disabled
- 00:28:01people who had taken on annuities that
- 00:28:03were to pay for their care for the rest
- 00:28:05of their life these were people who had
- 00:28:07put money into their policies for
- 00:28:09decades and then got a fraction of what
- 00:28:12they were owed but Apollo got this nice
- 00:28:15um chunk of change and so you know he
- 00:28:17does that for the next 30 years and now
- 00:28:20we can buy the Washington commanders and
- 00:28:22then at the end of your book he
- 00:28:24reappears
- 00:28:25as a antagonist to Leon black the one of
- 00:28:30the other co-founders to the bottom
- 00:28:33right so yeah
- 00:28:36yeah
- 00:28:37um let's go to another
- 00:28:39sort of well-known Washington private
- 00:28:42Equity figure David Rubinstein
- 00:28:45um Carlisle
- 00:28:47um so talk a little bit about you have
- 00:28:51an interesting quote in your book from
- 00:28:53David Rubinstein about private equity
- 00:28:56and you know his philanthropy is well
- 00:28:59known but
- 00:29:00sort of his financial operations or
- 00:29:04maybe less well known so talk a little
- 00:29:05bit about David Rubinstein well the
- 00:29:08example that we do we really detail in
- 00:29:12the book is the Manor Care transaction
- 00:29:15which was nursing homes that were based
- 00:29:17in Ohio they were really very well run
- 00:29:21they did not have any Mortgage Debt on
- 00:29:24the properties they owned all the real
- 00:29:26estate uh the company made a tremendous
- 00:29:29amount of money it had a higher
- 00:29:32percentage of Medicare pay and private
- 00:29:35pay than most of its competitors so it
- 00:29:38was a very well-run company they bought
- 00:29:40it
- 00:29:41there was quite a bit of upset and worry
- 00:29:44that this was going to be the
- 00:29:46traditional private Equity you know
- 00:29:48um operation where they were going to
- 00:29:50start firing people and reducing care
- 00:29:52and actually
- 00:29:54um Carlisle made a pledge to all the
- 00:29:58states in which they were operating that
- 00:30:00they would keep the patient care at a
- 00:30:03very high level they would invest in the
- 00:30:05company they did nothing of the sort
- 00:30:07what ended up happening was they did a
- 00:30:10an extraction transaction where they
- 00:30:13sold all the real estate under the
- 00:30:16nursing homes to a real estate
- 00:30:19investment trust they got all their
- 00:30:22money out
- 00:30:23then Manor Care had to start paying rent
- 00:30:27to The Entity that owned the real estate
- 00:30:30immediately it goes to a point where
- 00:30:33they have to they have to pay 40 million
- 00:30:36dollars a month in rent that they didn't
- 00:30:38have
- 00:30:39so all of a sudden the company is really
- 00:30:43behind the aid polls struggling at the
- 00:30:45same time the care is going down the
- 00:30:47drain the Washington Post did an amazing
- 00:30:49expose on this and found the the number
- 00:30:52of complaints and Medicare issues Rose
- 00:30:5626 percent after Carlisle took them over
- 00:31:00and so ultimately the company went
- 00:31:02bankrupt
- 00:31:04Carlisle made their money they got more
- 00:31:07than their money out of it and that was
- 00:31:10a you know transaction that is
- 00:31:12characteristic of the kind of extraction
- 00:31:15that that we're talking and it's really
- 00:31:18important to conceptually step back for
- 00:31:20a second and think about the fact that
- 00:31:22as Gretchen pointed out earlier
- 00:31:24Healthcare is 17 of GDP
- 00:31:27and we all know that health care costs
- 00:31:28have become unsustainable that the rate
- 00:31:31of inflation of Health Care is
- 00:31:33unmanageable
- 00:31:35but that's largely because of the
- 00:31:38Takeover of the industry of private
- 00:31:40Equity setting aside the pharmaceutical
- 00:31:42side which has its own issues as well
- 00:31:44but when you're stripping assets and
- 00:31:47then raising costs on the underlying
- 00:31:49real estate
- 00:31:51by definition the practices have to
- 00:31:53increase cost so in a real world would
- 00:31:56it be 17 of GDP no
- 00:31:59but it's driven by the debt funding and
- 00:32:01the extraction of wealth that forces the
- 00:32:03increase in costs
- 00:32:05uh one last Washington character Jerome
- 00:32:09Powell
- 00:32:10chairman of the Federal Reserve he too
- 00:32:13comes from private Equity talk a little
- 00:32:15bit about his background where he
- 00:32:20he was at Carlisle also
- 00:32:23um and uh you know he operated there I
- 00:32:26think from in the 2000s mid-2000s
- 00:32:29um
- 00:32:31you know I the one thing that I think
- 00:32:33that we the point we want to make in the
- 00:32:36book that is Jermaine
- 00:32:40is that when kovitz struck in 2020 and
- 00:32:44when the markets both the Bond Market
- 00:32:47corporate bond market and the stock
- 00:32:48markets plummeted because no one knew
- 00:32:51what was going to happen this was
- 00:32:52completely unknown territory for us
- 00:32:54everybody was upset and worried what are
- 00:32:57we going to do then the economy
- 00:32:59basically ground to a halt
- 00:33:02there was a moment when the Federal
- 00:33:04Reserve made a decision that was quite
- 00:33:07unusual quite unique had never been done
- 00:33:09before and that was to backstop with 750
- 00:33:13billion dollars
- 00:33:15the corporate bond market the corporate
- 00:33:18bond market which is where private
- 00:33:20Equity gets its money
- 00:33:22and so this was not necessarily that the
- 00:33:26Fed was buying corporate bonds but they
- 00:33:28were offering to backstop it and that
- 00:33:31put a floor on the market and that made
- 00:33:35everyone aware that there was only a
- 00:33:37certain level below that right Bonds
- 00:33:40were not going to fall and so that
- 00:33:43really helped these private Equity
- 00:33:46Titans to continue
- 00:33:48to raise money in that market
- 00:33:51and it was extraordinary because
- 00:33:54corporate bonds had never been subject
- 00:33:57to a purchase program by the Federal
- 00:34:00Reserve
- 00:34:01okay before we get to questions from the
- 00:34:05audience I wanted to ask you about
- 00:34:08the aftermath uh to your book the
- 00:34:11reaction one of the things we were
- 00:34:13talking about just before
- 00:34:16was uh
- 00:34:18normally as a journalist when you do a
- 00:34:21story or an expose or a book
- 00:34:23people oftentimes come forward and you
- 00:34:27were remarking about the paucity of
- 00:34:29whistleblowers and private Equity
- 00:34:32talk a little bit about that and why
- 00:34:35it's so hard as a journalist to sort of
- 00:34:39get people inside the industry to talk
- 00:34:41about it
- 00:34:43well I think I think as I said to you
- 00:34:46earlier you know people who go into
- 00:34:48private Equity are not altruists
- 00:34:51they are looking to maybe you know the
- 00:34:54best case scenario is they want to pay
- 00:34:56back their student loan debt maybe or
- 00:34:58something like that but they're not the
- 00:34:59kind of people who are going to raise
- 00:35:01their hand and say
- 00:35:03there's something bad going on here it's
- 00:35:05hurting people I don't want to do it
- 00:35:08anymore I want to talk to a journalist
- 00:35:09about it and again remember one of the
- 00:35:13big distinctions are public markets
- 00:35:15versus private markets and so in public
- 00:35:17markets information does get out right
- 00:35:20there is the incentive for people to
- 00:35:23stand up and say it's actually not
- 00:35:24exactly as it looks right right and that
- 00:35:26doesn't really exist in that piece of
- 00:35:28the world
- 00:35:29so reaction and I'm sorry I'm sorry go
- 00:35:31ahead and
- 00:35:34there are enablers here that I think are
- 00:35:36worth touching on which are the pension
- 00:35:38plans the endowments right who also
- 00:35:41that's where a lot of the money is
- 00:35:43coming from to invest people's future
- 00:35:45retirement funds right and they have an
- 00:35:49incentive to keep their mouth shut and
- 00:35:52they have an incentive to play the
- 00:35:54mismarking of accounting on the
- 00:35:57valuations
- 00:35:59that may be occurring because
- 00:36:03everyone in this industry is playing on
- 00:36:06a five to seven year cycle rather than
- 00:36:08on a quarterly cycle so they get to Mark
- 00:36:10to model not necessarily Mark to Market
- 00:36:13and so everyone has an incentive to keep
- 00:36:16the game going and to keep the game
- 00:36:18going you need to make sure that
- 00:36:20everyone is quiet right I'll just say
- 00:36:22one thing about reaction
- 00:36:24um you know
- 00:36:26anybody has watched Warren Buffett and
- 00:36:30Charlie munger's annual meeting the
- 00:36:32annual meeting that they just had last
- 00:36:34May in Berkshire in Omaha they go into
- 00:36:39quite a bunch of detail about private
- 00:36:42equity and they are extremely critical
- 00:36:44of it so don't take our word for it
- 00:36:46Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett are
- 00:36:49there on the Deus saying that private
- 00:36:51Equity is not marking their Holdings
- 00:36:53accurately that private Equity is too
- 00:36:56expensive too opaque it doesn't make
- 00:37:00sense for people to buy it it was quite
- 00:37:02interesting that the Oracle of Omaha and
- 00:37:07his colleague Charlie
- 00:37:08were quite going out on a limb on
- 00:37:11private Equity all right a last question
- 00:37:14one of the reviews of your book
- 00:37:19um
- 00:37:20raised a criticism that it was like too
- 00:37:23much anecdote and not enough
- 00:37:25you know in depth about the private
- 00:37:28Equity as a whole I would encourage
- 00:37:31people to read the book and you can come
- 00:37:33to your own conclusion about whether
- 00:37:35that's a a fair characterization or not
- 00:37:37but I I'd like for you to you know maybe
- 00:37:40address it and also the author who wrote
- 00:37:43that turns out to have that that's a key
- 00:37:47piece of it private Equity guide there's
- 00:37:50a back story to that so no talk about
- 00:37:52that a little well I would just say
- 00:37:54private Equity is so pervasive there are
- 00:37:57law firms there are financers I mean
- 00:37:59it's very pervasive and there are going
- 00:38:01to be people who are going to come after
- 00:38:03us for criticizing it and that's fine
- 00:38:05I'm fine with that by the way because
- 00:38:06you didn't say it pervasive we were
- 00:38:09talking about emergency rooms earlier
- 00:38:1140 percent of all emergency rooms are
- 00:38:14currently owned by private actors I'm
- 00:38:16sorry so when you start thinking about
- 00:38:18the scale that's that's part of why the
- 00:38:21pushback is going to always be coming
- 00:38:23from everyone and I'm sure everyone here
- 00:38:25has or knows of an experience of going
- 00:38:28to an emergency room and finding that
- 00:38:32some of the doctors that took care of
- 00:38:34you or someone you know that they
- 00:38:36weren't in network or the added costs
- 00:38:39and this this is you know I think really
- 00:38:41something the book goes into in a lot of
- 00:38:45depth and as far as anecdotes Jeff I
- 00:38:47mean seriously they don't want the
- 00:38:49anecdotes they don't want to hear the
- 00:38:52stories of the school children in New
- 00:38:54Madrid Missouri who did not have school
- 00:38:56books because naranda was bankrupted and
- 00:39:00couldn't pay its taxes and so the tax
- 00:39:04base in this small Missouri Town
- 00:39:08did completely shriveled and school
- 00:39:12children and school teachers went
- 00:39:14without Health Care insurance because of
- 00:39:17this they don't want to hear about the
- 00:39:19anecdotes because the anecdotes are
- 00:39:22really what tell the story and they
- 00:39:24don't want that out there right well but
- 00:39:26I think the book also has a lot of
- 00:39:29studies in a research oh yeah that show
- 00:39:32that it's not just anecdotes right but
- 00:39:34they don't I guess they don't like that
- 00:39:36either so uh
- 00:39:38why don't we start with some questions
- 00:39:40here my name is Carolyn poplin I'm a big
- 00:39:43fan
- 00:39:44um thank you two years ago David
- 00:39:46Rubinstein sat right there where you are
- 00:39:49now
- 00:39:50I went after him
- 00:39:53um because
- 00:39:54well I graduated from you know law
- 00:39:57school with the clintons I don't know
- 00:39:58what kind of what school they went to I
- 00:40:01know what kind of school Yale was when I
- 00:40:03was there
- 00:40:05um and I don't know how they turned out
- 00:40:06the way they did
- 00:40:08um after 12 years of law practice I
- 00:40:10decided that was a waste of time and I
- 00:40:12went into medicine because that was
- 00:40:14something real I mean physiology is
- 00:40:18physiology you can't argue with facts
- 00:40:20and I discovered to my horror that
- 00:40:23private Equity was already there and was
- 00:40:26destroying American medicine now you can
- 00:40:29do something about private Equity you do
- 00:40:32what Elizabeth Warren says you abolish
- 00:40:34it we don't have to have this
- 00:40:38um you can do something about medicine
- 00:40:40you take the excuse me the money
- 00:40:43out of it you take the money out of it
- 00:40:45so it's not a profitable investment
- 00:40:47medicine is a calling it's not a
- 00:40:50business uh that's not what medicine is
- 00:40:53supposed to be about any more than
- 00:40:54education is supposed to be about and
- 00:40:57you make it unprofitable to invest and
- 00:40:59that will be the end of that the trouble
- 00:41:02is
- 00:41:03Pension funds
- 00:41:05universities what are they supposed to
- 00:41:07invest in
- 00:41:09well but let's start there for a second
- 00:41:11because you know part of the reason that
- 00:41:13the Pension funds and the private equity
- 00:41:15and the endowments are there is actually
- 00:41:18the liquidity
- 00:41:19right so when you look at what the
- 00:41:21Pension funds hold right now it's north
- 00:41:24in most cases uh certainly with
- 00:41:27endowments it's north of 50 percent to
- 00:41:2975 percent of their funds are an
- 00:41:33illiquid Investments real estate
- 00:41:36could be private Equity right part of
- 00:41:39the value there is
- 00:41:40that they get to rely on Actuarial
- 00:41:42assumptions of returns rather than
- 00:41:44actually having to acknowledge that
- 00:41:46they're not making the returns that they
- 00:41:49want they don't have a daily market
- 00:41:50value but they have to pay out
- 00:41:53on a yes on an Actuarial basis but
- 00:41:56you're always running in accrual
- 00:41:58remember we've got declining populations
- 00:42:01um and so you're hoping you're stealing
- 00:42:04from Peter to pay Paul right and
- 00:42:07eventually it'll catch up to us
- 00:42:09and that's actually one of our great
- 00:42:11concerns because they're also now buying
- 00:42:15the insurance companies private Equity
- 00:42:17firms oh no all bought major Insurance
- 00:42:19life insurance companies
- 00:42:21so that they actually are taking over
- 00:42:24those retirement funds as well they're
- 00:42:26co-investing with their own investors
- 00:42:28they're putting the retirement monies
- 00:42:31into some of their own products
- 00:42:33okay which are not necessarily rated AAA
- 00:42:37right and so it almost feels like they
- 00:42:40understand that the final game is a
- 00:42:43bailout
- 00:42:44get it to a systemic level because
- 00:42:47that's the way you're going to get out
- 00:42:49because the the
- 00:42:52most of the most of the endowments and
- 00:42:54pension fund managers
- 00:42:57apparently I paid on net asset value not
- 00:42:59on a regular Mark and so it's in
- 00:43:02everyone's interest
- 00:43:04to keep up the facade as long as they
- 00:43:07can my late husband ran the pbgc under
- 00:43:10Clinton by the way so yeah he bailed he
- 00:43:14had to rescue a lot of Pensions that
- 00:43:16went belly up that's right intentionally
- 00:43:19yeah I mean the pensions were fine they
- 00:43:22were doing fine they were defined
- 00:43:23benefit plans that's how pensions should
- 00:43:26be in this country
- 00:43:28but
- 00:43:29we need but but it's all right sorry
- 00:43:33Elizabeth Warren we need to abolish
- 00:43:36private Equity it can be abolished I'm
- 00:43:39an attorney I can tell you that
- 00:43:43thank you for your thoughts and your
- 00:43:47passion
- 00:43:49um I don't remember what her name is but
- 00:43:51she scares me
- 00:43:53I'm also an attorney but uh does
- 00:43:56everybody have if you don't have a book
- 00:43:57you should grab one because I am private
- 00:44:00Equity so anybody want to Boo or throw
- 00:44:02things at me have at it
- 00:44:05um and I of course take some exception
- 00:44:08what you say but there's also a fair
- 00:44:09amount of truth especially when you talk
- 00:44:11about Barbarians at the gate and and
- 00:44:13various things like that there is bad
- 00:44:16private Equity I wanna right and I want
- 00:44:19to make clear and I think Gretch and I
- 00:44:21tried to make clear we're really talking
- 00:44:22about a very specific type of private
- 00:44:24equity and it really is the debt funded
- 00:44:26about the lbos that's right and I think
- 00:44:29that was somewhat misleading here and
- 00:44:32within this discussion anyways because I
- 00:44:35like to think that we do a lot of good
- 00:44:38but you talk we've talked about the
- 00:44:39pension plans and the college endowments
- 00:44:41which in fact support my company as well
- 00:44:44and if you get a pension here or if you
- 00:44:47ever got a scholarship it's because of
- 00:44:49those types of Investments
- 00:44:51um you didn't talk a lot about insurance
- 00:44:53companies but they too are investors in
- 00:44:56this space and yeah we can skip over a
- 00:44:59theme because that may go over some
- 00:45:01people's heads here but
- 00:45:03um the the I don't mean that insulting
- 00:45:06insulting um uh it's just deep in the
- 00:45:09weeds but
- 00:45:11we for example I'd like to give one
- 00:45:14example
- 00:45:15um where for those of you companies that
- 00:45:17you may know Armstrong Flooring recently
- 00:45:20filed for bankruptcy and the floor
- 00:45:22underneath here may be Armstrong
- 00:45:24Flooring you walk into hospitals in a
- 00:45:25lot of hospitals right that company is
- 00:45:28going to be completely liquidated we
- 00:45:30came in and bought that company shut
- 00:45:33down three of the plants admittedly but
- 00:45:35kept two of them open and saved probably
- 00:45:38a thousand jobs but people don't focus
- 00:45:41on that they don't talk about that
- 00:45:43because of this lbo
- 00:45:46bad news what was the structure uh the
- 00:45:49structure there was we brought in a
- 00:45:52strategic they had other
- 00:45:53flooring plants so they could buy the
- 00:45:56name effectively and because of the
- 00:45:58amount of business that had fallen off
- 00:46:00they kept the plants operating that
- 00:46:02could still support some business that
- 00:46:04the company by itself couldn't because
- 00:46:06of the overhead associated with the
- 00:46:07business we went ahead and liquidated
- 00:46:09the plants um the Machinery equipment
- 00:46:12the flooring collected out the
- 00:46:14receivables and that is what brought the
- 00:46:18most value
- 00:46:19to the employees and to the creditors of
- 00:46:23that particular company we did the same
- 00:46:25thing with Lionsgate films which many of
- 00:46:27you may know right that Studio was on
- 00:46:30the verge of bankruptcy and collapse and
- 00:46:33now look at it you've got the Hunger
- 00:46:35Games and Stars Network and all this
- 00:46:38sort of stuff
- 00:46:39so I know there's people behind me that
- 00:46:41want to ask these questions but I think
- 00:46:43the main point here is that it would be
- 00:46:45good and I've not read your book it'd be
- 00:46:47good I hope your book talks about some
- 00:46:50of the good things that private Equity
- 00:46:52does and how it's long dated this going
- 00:46:55quarter to quarter to quarter in the
- 00:46:57public markets is a Bad Thing hold on it
- 00:47:00isn't though necessarily long data
- 00:47:02that's kind of the point that we were
- 00:47:03making so what was the structure of the
- 00:47:06transactions debt to equity do you have
- 00:47:08a Target maximum debt that you're
- 00:47:09willing to put on a company do you
- 00:47:11actually keep the equity in the company
- 00:47:14do you extract Equity do you special
- 00:47:16dividend prior to a termination
- 00:47:19transaction we don't do those things now
- 00:47:22the case of lionsgate's a public company
- 00:47:24we've been holding on to that now for oh
- 00:47:26God I don't know 11 maybe more years and
- 00:47:29are still in it and we'll get out by
- 00:47:32sawing the stock in the case of
- 00:47:35Armstrong that was a shorter data
- 00:47:38transaction because it was really about
- 00:47:40the Strategic coming in who's operating
- 00:47:42it on a long-term basis and it was not
- 00:47:45overloaded with debt right so we're not
- 00:47:46talking about 90 debt we're talking
- 00:47:48about traditional 65 to 75 percent it's
- 00:47:51like you put a lot more Equity into it
- 00:47:52than these folks normally do in the lbos
- 00:47:55and so that's a different model and
- 00:47:56leave it there and don't special
- 00:47:58dividend to yourself to get out quickly
- 00:48:00that's which we don't do right that's
- 00:48:01we're not focusing on but the answer is
- 00:48:04in the law like if it I I actually agree
- 00:48:07with her on the medical side that
- 00:48:10you know you have for-profit hospitals
- 00:48:13should there be for-profit hospitals
- 00:48:16but I got to let the people behind me
- 00:48:18ask questions I want to point out in In
- 00:48:20fairness I won't let the authors make
- 00:48:23this point I'll make it that if you do
- 00:48:25read the book they they went to the
- 00:48:28trade uh group The American Investment
- 00:48:31Council and there are some examples in
- 00:48:33the book of of positive outcomes and
- 00:48:36jobs created and things like that so uh
- 00:48:39we're probably you know more
- 00:48:41proportionally focused on the negative
- 00:48:43here but if you read the book The if
- 00:48:46there's some more balance yes we
- 00:48:48certainly asked for as many examples as
- 00:48:50they would like to give us and but we're
- 00:48:52talking about a different story I was
- 00:48:54just very concerned by the young ladies
- 00:48:56comment here about
- 00:48:58um you know ban all private Equity you
- 00:49:00hear me Elizabeth Warren
- 00:49:02all right so thank you the more the
- 00:49:04merrier what
- 00:49:07my company is
- 00:49:14buying for KKR but we we manage around 6
- 00:49:17billion compared to their anywhere from
- 00:49:20150 to 300 billion so we're sort of
- 00:49:23small
- 00:49:24thank you
- 00:49:27perhaps you might be interested in your
- 00:49:30next book
- 00:49:31uh about a program which I will call the
- 00:49:35junior varsity
- 00:49:37of these funds small business investment
- 00:49:41companies
- 00:49:42which are overseen by the small business
- 00:49:45administration and they get to play
- 00:49:48around with a considerable amount of
- 00:49:52money from the federal government
- 00:49:55and uh some of what you're saying I have
- 00:49:58seen in the sbic program I must also say
- 00:50:03that I've sometimes seen with the
- 00:50:05gentleman ahead of me has also seen
- 00:50:09thank you all right
- 00:50:17hi I work with the small businesses and
- 00:50:20micro talk to him
- 00:50:23micro Equity is supposed to be something
- 00:50:26that's a good thing that happens to
- 00:50:28small businesses because globally very
- 00:50:31often they are uh you know they borrow
- 00:50:34at the rate of 25 30 and so on so forth
- 00:50:37in developing countries particularly so
- 00:50:40the World Bank and others came up with
- 00:50:42this great idea of how micro Equity is
- 00:50:45supposed to be good but they are doing
- 00:50:46the same thing
- 00:50:48to small businesses that you know the
- 00:50:50big guys are doing so is there no good
- 00:50:53at all in in private Equity because you
- 00:50:56just said we are only talking about a
- 00:50:58certain type of private equity which is
- 00:51:01the lbos and so on but when they try to
- 00:51:03copy that model down to you know the
- 00:51:06small businesses they seem to be having
- 00:51:07the same set of practices
- 00:51:12well there are you know those business
- 00:51:16development companies
- 00:51:19bdc's are actually sort of The Unsung
- 00:51:22problem of the system in my mind at this
- 00:51:24point and that is sort of it becomes
- 00:51:27it's a little bigger than the
- 00:51:29microfinance that you're talking about
- 00:51:30but yeah we've gotten into a world where
- 00:51:33there's a lot of Leverage the fractional
- 00:51:36Reserve System if you want to talk about
- 00:51:37the fundamental problem here is sort of
- 00:51:40the fractional Reserve System which you
- 00:51:42know speak English what is that well you
- 00:51:44put your money into a bank you're
- 00:51:46essentially funding this same business
- 00:51:48through your banking right so at the end
- 00:51:51of the day you put your money into a
- 00:51:52bank as a deposit
- 00:51:54if you think that your dollar is sitting
- 00:51:56in a bank account it actually isn't the
- 00:51:57bank has loaned it out 20 times okay
- 00:51:59you're Jimmy Stewart now
- 00:52:02right and so that's sort of what you're
- 00:52:04talking about is a problem of rent
- 00:52:06seeking behavior in the system I don't
- 00:52:08know how you cure that broadly other
- 00:52:10than through
- 00:52:12regulation but you're right that there
- 00:52:14are predators in that world and small
- 00:52:17businesses are
- 00:52:19victimized routinely and I have written
- 00:52:22about some of them and it's because they
- 00:52:24can least afford it yes at least afford
- 00:52:26it and it's the American dream and you
- 00:52:28know they're just really Sweat Equity
- 00:52:30and working you know no it's not the
- 00:52:32American dream it happens in India it
- 00:52:34happens in Bangladesh it happens
- 00:52:37owning your own business is such a dream
- 00:52:40for so many people and those small
- 00:52:42businesses by definition are also paying
- 00:52:45much much much higher rates right for
- 00:52:48their Capital right that's why they
- 00:52:50thought that micro Equity would be a
- 00:52:51better option but you know they're
- 00:52:53literally between a rock and a hard
- 00:52:54place
- 00:52:55thank you well thank you thanks for
- 00:52:57coming
- 00:52:59last chance for questions here we go one
- 00:53:01more
- 00:53:04can you mention can you address carried
- 00:53:06interest in how it's treated
- 00:53:10the the book does go into this but give
- 00:53:13us the capsule version
- 00:53:18well no I mean carried interest is a you
- 00:53:21know tax break that is it has been
- 00:53:24impossible to undo
- 00:53:26it did not start with private Equity it
- 00:53:28started with real estate
- 00:53:31um it is unfair
- 00:53:34to the max because you know and Warren
- 00:53:38Buffett will say this uh until he's blue
- 00:53:41in the face but that it is not fair that
- 00:53:44people who are you know this wealthy
- 00:53:47pays such a you know modest amount of
- 00:53:51taxes
- 00:53:52their rage is so much lower than a bus
- 00:53:56driver or teacher secretary but every
- 00:54:00time anyone tries to do anything about
- 00:54:02the carried interest tax treatment
- 00:54:06the lobbying dollars flood in and
- 00:54:09nothing gets done
- 00:54:11and so it's usually you know it's been a
- 00:54:14priority for our last three presidents
- 00:54:16to close that loophole right
- 00:54:18right it never gets done
- 00:54:20um do I have faith that it will get done
- 00:54:23no
- 00:54:24um it does seem to be something that is
- 00:54:28impossible too but but again they're the
- 00:54:31benefit of Crews not to the private
- 00:54:32Equity Firm
- 00:54:34but to the partners in the private
- 00:54:35Equity so that's that's a little
- 00:54:38tangential in some sense
- 00:54:41deeply unfair
- 00:54:43all right well that wraps it up thank
- 00:54:46you so much for coming thank you
- 00:54:48[Applause]
- 00:54:52thank you everyone for joining us for
- 00:54:54this barrier
- Private Equity
- Wirtschaft
- Gretchen Morgensen
- Joshua Rosner
- Gesundheitswesen
- Pflegeheime
- Finanzen
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- Kritik
- Investitionen