00:00:02
Steve, hello and welcome back to
UnHerd. Have you been watching
00:00:05
the Cabinet picks of President
elect Trump with a mixture of
00:00:10
fascination and incomprehension?
According to some parts of the
00:00:14
media, every one of them is
either scandalously under
00:00:16
qualified or a danger to
democracy. According to Trump
00:00:20
media. They're either brilliant
or sellouts not Trumpy enough.
00:00:24
Well, if you're looking for
something like a fair assessment
00:00:28
of who they are, what they might
be like, including whether they
00:00:31
actually stand a chance of being
confirmed, look no further. I
00:00:34
have UnHerd Emily Jansky on the
line from our DC Bureau to try
00:00:39
to help us do just that. Hi,
Emily.
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Hi Freddie. How are you?
00:00:43
I'm well. Thank you. So we have
been watching all around the
00:00:46
world, I think, over the past
few weeks to see what the Trump
00:00:50
administration was going to be
like. A lot of names have been
00:00:54
talked about, and a lot of
people may not know much about
00:00:56
them. Some of them are more kind
of discussed well known
00:00:59
characters, and some of them
will be new to some people. So
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I'm hoping in the course of the
next half hour, you can give us
00:01:05
a bit of a crash tutorial on
some of these names and just how
00:01:09
controversial, how out there, or
maybe kind of inspired in some
00:01:12
cases, the choices may be.
00:01:14
It's a really interesting group
of people that reflects the
00:01:17
coalition Donald Trump cobbled
together over the course of his
00:01:20
last presidential run, people in
conservative circles are very
00:01:23
conscious of not repeating what
they see as mistakes of the
00:01:26
first Trump administration, not
having loyalists, not having
00:01:30
people prepared to take tough
decisions on day one of a
00:01:35
potential administration. So
Donald Trump is definitely
00:01:38
taking steps towards correcting
again what a lot of people have
00:01:41
seen as those errors when he
takes office in January.
00:01:44
Let's start with Marco Rubio. He
probably is among the better
00:01:48
known names a senator out of
Florida. He ran against Donald
00:01:52
Trump for the Republican
nomination in 2016 at that
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stage, as I recall, he wasn't a
big fan of Donald Trump, but
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he's kind of moved as so many
Republicans have over the
00:02:02
subsequent eight years, and now
finds himself nominated as
00:02:05
Secretary of State. Is he an
establishment choice?
00:02:09
Yes, Marco Rubio is one of the
more disappointing choices for
00:02:12
Maga enthusiasts, because Marco
Rubio's record on foreign
00:02:15
policy, which, of course, he
will oversee as Secretary of
00:02:18
State, if he's confirmed, which
he is very likely to be
00:02:21
confirmed, his portfolio will be
entirely foreign policy. And
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when you go back to conflicts,
be they in Latin America or the
00:02:27
Middle East or in Europe,
frankly, there are a lot of
00:02:31
people in the Maga camp.
Reportedly Tucker Carlson was
00:02:34
lobbying against Marco Rubio,
for instance, who think he's too
00:02:37
hawkish, who will call him a
neoconservative. Now, I think
00:02:41
the neoconservative label used
pejoratively against Marco Rubio
00:02:44
lacks a little bit of nuance. He
did vote against the most recent
00:02:48
spring Ukraine aid package in
the Senate. Skeptics will point
00:02:52
out he did that for reasons that
may not have been genuine, sort
00:02:56
of skepticism about the
continuing US involvement in
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that conflict. But he has been
willing, not just on economics.
00:03:04
You know, most notably on
economics, he's definitely said
00:03:07
openly. He wrote an entire book
called decades of decadence
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about why he learned that the
Tea Party wave economics that he
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was elected on actually were
kind of failing the American
00:03:17
people. He's had flexibility
there. I think he's had a little
00:03:19
bit of flexibility on foreign
policy, but especially in Latin
00:03:23
America. He's the son of Cuban
immigrants. He's very, very
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hawkish, very pro intervention,
and people in Maga circles
00:03:30
definitely are concerned that
will lead to more hawkishness.
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In Ukraine, in the Middle East,
for example, they see that as a
00:03:39
real vulnerability for the Mega
agenda. Do
00:03:41
you think it's fair to think of
him almost as the kind of
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version two of a neocon which is
pretty much into conflict or a
00:03:49
standoff against China, but keen
to back out of the Ukraine
00:03:53
situation? That seems to be. A
lot of the people around Donald
00:03:56
Trump are headed in that
direction, and Rubio seems to be
00:03:59
as well.
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And here in DC, Marco Rubio
surrounds himself with the
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people that fit that exact
profile, who are very hawkish on
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China, probably still very
hawkish in Latin America. So
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support sanctions in Venezuela
and Cuba, but are realist when
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it comes to NATO and Europe. And
you know, Tulsi Gabbard is
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someone who, on July 14, I
believe, before Donald Trump
00:04:22
announced JD Vance as his
running mate, Chelsea Gabbard
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went on Megyn Kelly's show and
slammed Marco Rubio in the
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harshest possible terms. And
now, if Tulsi Gabbard is
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confirmed, which we'll talk
about in a moment, she would be
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the Director of National
Intelligence, so in the highest
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possible intelligence office
with the sort of much, much more
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isolationist and skeptical
perspective on all of this, even
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though I think it's much more
accurate to say that Marco Rubio
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is on a journey from the
neoconservative wing of the
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Republican Party to what you
described, maybe round two of
00:04:57
neoconservatism, which is
learning. From the mistakes of
00:05:01
the global war on terrorism that
people are more openly willing
00:05:05
to talk about now, and someone
else who fits that we're going
00:05:07
to talk about is Pete hagseth.
So Trump is assembling a
00:05:10
coalition of people who are
already fully reckoned with what
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a lot of people, most people in
America, see as the errors of
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the war on terrorism, and people
who are sort of trying to be the
00:05:18
bridge between both the prior
conservative foreign policy and
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the future
00:05:23
on Israel, however, and we'll
move on from Rubio in a moment.
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But on Israel, He is absolutely
solid, right? And that is the
00:05:30
feature of most, maybe not all,
but most of these picks from
00:05:34
President elect Trump, rock
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solid. The same actually
applies, really to Tulsi Gabbard
00:05:40
and Pete hagseth. And I think
you know, Trump named Mike
00:05:43
Huckabee as his ambassador to
Israel. Mike, Mike Huckabee has
00:05:47
never wavered for a moment from
the staunch conservative
00:05:50
position, hawkish position on
Israel, hawkish position, of
00:05:54
course, towards Iran. Rubio Zach
also very, very hawkish towards
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Iran, not just China, but also
towards Iran. He has been
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towards Putin. And so you can
understand where that would be
00:06:03
concerning to somebody like
Tucker Carlson, who has become
00:06:07
hypersensitive to the potential
for nuclear conflict as some of
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these different spheres congeal,
when you have North Korean
00:06:15
soldiers in Russia, and do you
have Iran and Russia and
00:06:19
Venezuela and all of those
different pieces of the puzzle
00:06:22
coming together. You can see
where Tucker Carlson would be
00:06:24
nervous about somebody who was
as hawkish on Israel as Rubio
00:06:28
hag Seth, or even Tulsi Gabbard,
who has really become very pro
00:06:32
Israel in recent months.
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Well, let's talk about Tulsi. We
seem to have moved on to her
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anyway. So she is the nominee
for Director of National
00:06:40
Intelligence. She talk about
journeys. I mean, she's
00:06:44
definitely been on a journey.
She came out for Bernie Sanders
00:06:48
in 2016 she was on the left of
the Democratic Party. 2020 she
00:06:53
ran to be the Democratic
nominee. And now 2024 I think
00:06:58
she was a Democrat even a year
ago, wasn't she technically, or
00:07:00
certainly two years ago, and now
she's, she's a maga Republican.
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Tell us what we need to know
about Tulsi Gabbard. Chelsea
00:07:08
Gabbard is such an interesting
figure, and you know, she's made
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a lot of people mad on both the
left and the right over the
00:07:15
years, more on the left now than
the right. But she really first
00:07:18
came to prominence when she quit
her position as vice chair of
00:07:22
the Democratic Party. She was
vice chair of the Democratic
00:07:25
National Committee, and she quit
over her protests about the way
00:07:28
the DNC was treating Bernie
Sanders during the 2016 election
00:07:33
that launched her into a
position of national prominence.
00:07:36
And it wasn't until this recent
election cycle that she formally
00:07:39
left the Democratic Party and
joined hands with Donald Trump.
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One of the big reasons, of
course, was foreign policy. She
00:07:46
is very much in the realist
camp. Some people might just
00:07:50
call her an isolationist. I
think that that probably be
00:07:53
unfair, but especially given her
position on Israel, as we just
00:07:56
talked about. But she's anti
war. Is another way. She's anti
00:08:00
war, but very hawkish on radical
Islam and sort of Islamism. So
00:08:05
that sort of creates different
implications for her Middle East
00:08:08
policy, where, you know, people
may say it's inconsistent with
00:08:11
her policy on Russia and
Ukraine, or her policy about
00:08:14
interventionism elsewhere. So
she's an interesting figure
00:08:16
who's hard to sort of categorize
in a black and white way. But
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one of the other issues besides
foreign policy that pushed her
00:08:23
towards the Republican Party was
transgenderism. She talks about
00:08:28
that a lot. It's not directly
relevant to her position of
00:08:30
Director of National
Intelligence, but in terms of
00:08:32
how we contextualize the journey
that Tulsi Gabbard has been on.
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She's really someone who was a
traditional like women's right,
00:08:41
dovish Democrat until not too
long ago, and it became
00:08:45
uncomfortable for her to be on
the left, so that, I think is
00:08:48
going to severely hurt her
chances of being confirmed by
00:08:53
the Senate. Her position on US
intervention in Syria is going
00:08:57
to be a load of baggage for her
to deal with with very Neo
00:09:01
conservative senators, actually,
in the senators in the
00:09:03
Democratic and Republican Party
who have smeared her as a Putin
00:09:09
asset, an agent of Assad for a
long, long time. And there may
00:09:13
be very fair criticisms of Tulsi
gabbard's position on Syria, but
00:09:17
there's no love lost. These are
deeply, better relationships. So
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it's not all going to be peace
and kumbaya in the coming
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months. Let's bring in Pete
hegseth again. What we hear is
00:09:29
that he's basically a TV
producer. He's a TV presenter.
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He's a guy on Fox News. And the
kind of image you're presented
00:09:36
with is Donald Trump watching
the TV and saying, I like that
00:09:39
guy. He looks kind of, he looks
like a soldier. He talks about
00:09:42
the right kind of things. Let's
have him for defense secretary.
00:09:45
It's a straight out of central
casting. This is, you know,
00:09:47
cabinet as a TV show,
00:09:50
right? Well, yeah, Pete hagseth
is a host on Fox and Friends
00:09:53
Weekend, and he that's where
people really know him from, but
00:09:57
he did go to a Princeton
undergraduate Harvard. Identity
00:10:00
school for a masters. And he
then went enlisted. He served in
00:10:04
Iraq and Afghanistan, and is a
decorated veteran. He has two
00:10:08
Bronze Stars. Came back and
started working on veterans
00:10:11
advocacy issues. So started
working with a group called
00:10:15
concerned vets for America that
is definitely not very hawkish,
00:10:19
is sort of, again smeared as
Tulsi Gabbard is as kind of
00:10:22
isolationist, and that's why one
of his colleagues, Dan Caldwell,
00:10:26
who worked with him at concerned
veterans for America, has come
00:10:28
out and said, if you're calling
Pete hegseth A neocon, you have
00:10:32
no idea what you're talking
about. But it's interesting,
00:10:34
because hegseth, when he got
back from the war, was ardently
00:10:38
defending it in public, and he
has openly, then shifted. He has
00:10:43
become disillusioned. I would
call him hawkish, but
00:10:46
disillusioned. He's not just a
TV host. He's actually a very,
00:10:49
very smart guy who has, I think,
actually amassed a surprising
00:10:53
amount of support from people. I
mean, personally, when I saw
00:10:56
Donald Trump's press release
about naming Pete hegest to the
00:10:59
Department of Defense, I thought
it was kind of hilarious,
00:11:02
because it's so Trumpian to just
say I'm plucking my favorite Fox
00:11:05
and Friends host and putting him
into the Pentagon. But I think
00:11:08
people here do recognize Pete
hegseth as a more serious
00:11:11
person. I've interviewed him.
He's very, very smart, much more
00:11:14
so than people expect from a lot
of you know TV hosts. So his
00:11:20
chance of being confirmed. We're
on a scale to 10. I would say
00:11:23
maybe a seven. He is now
battling a rape accusation from
00:11:27
several years ago in California.
He was speaking at a local
00:11:30
Republican event there. So he
said she said the woman who was
00:11:34
married claims that she was
intoxicated and hex has raped
00:11:37
her in a hotel room. He claims
that it was consensual. So he's
00:11:41
battling that right now. It is
apparently making senators
00:11:44
skittish about having to take a
vote on him, but I'm sure it
00:11:47
will make Maga people dig their
heels in much deeper, because
00:11:50
they'll say this is Brett
Kavanaugh all over again. Well,
00:11:54
so
00:11:54
you're saying he's intelligent
and he's a serious person, and I
00:11:57
don't dispute that. It does seem
fair to raise an eyebrow
00:12:01
nonetheless. I mean, in terms of
CVS for Secretary of Defense,
00:12:05
his is kind of thin. Normally,
you have a little bit more on
00:12:09
the CV than he has. I think that
is fair to say, is it not
00:12:12
absolutely and it's actually a
pretty fair point of concern for
00:12:16
people who want the Pentagon to
be uprooted. Alyssa Farah, who
00:12:20
worked for the Trump
administration and is now a very
00:12:23
anti Trump post on the view
made, I thought a pretty good
00:12:26
point, though, about hegseth
coming into the Pentagon. She
00:12:29
said there are generals that
have actually worked in the
00:12:32
Pentagon, have gone through the
bureaucracy and tried to shake
00:12:35
the Pentagon up, have tried to
cut through the red tape and
00:12:38
smash the bureaucracy, and have
gotten eaten alive. So it's
00:12:42
unlikely, then that somebody who
spent the bulk of his recent
00:12:46
time in TV and writing books
will be able to come in without
00:12:51
being enmeshed in the Pentagon
bureaucracy, without being in
00:12:55
the kind of leadership structure
and know exactly how to
00:12:58
dismantle it. I mean, this is a
massive, massive department, and
00:13:02
it's just an overwhelming
prospect to really do much in a
00:13:06
four year term as the head of
the Defense Department. So it
00:13:10
could actually even be a
negative as to whether it has
00:13:13
what it takes to make even if
you say he wants to make
00:13:15
significant damage to the
Pentagon. Can you do that from
00:13:18
the outside? If you don't know
where everything is totally
00:13:21
relevant. Question. It's
00:13:22
an interesting point actually,
that all of these outsiders that
00:13:27
watching from afar seem to
signal a kind of anti
00:13:30
establishment desire to uproot
everything and change everything
00:13:33
from the inside, may actually
not be able to do that because
00:13:36
they don't know enough about the
machine. They can be there for
00:13:39
four years, and by the end of
it, they still haven't got to
00:13:41
grips with where the levers are,
where the power lies. So you
00:13:44
could kind of paradoxically make
the argument that he would
00:13:47
achieve more with more
establishment Cabinet picks.
00:13:52
Yeah, absolutely. And that's an
argument that I know we'll talk
00:13:55
about because it also applies to
Matt gates.
00:13:58
Let's talk about Matt then you
mentioned him, and there's
00:14:00
another cloud hanging over Matt
gates. I mean, you mentioned
00:14:03
there's a rape allegation in
connection with hexif. The
00:14:07
allegations, with reference to
Matt Gaetz, are also pretty
00:14:10
serious. What's the status on
that? Before we move on to his
00:14:14
actual CV, you get people who
are kind of anti Trump will make
00:14:19
a lot of those allegations and
say that this should be a
00:14:21
disqualifying factor. People who
defend him say, well, they have
00:14:25
withdrawn the case. Apparently,
there wasn't enough evidence.
00:14:29
What's, what's a fair assessment
of that?
00:14:32
Yeah, let's open this can of
worms, because Matt gates is
00:14:35
known in DC and even in
Republican circles, to be fairly
00:14:39
sleazy, not just among anti Maga
people, but even people in Maga
00:14:43
world understand that,
especially before he was
00:14:46
married, this guy parties very
hard, not entirely unusual in
00:14:50
Congress, but Matt Gaetz was
especially open about how much
00:14:53
he was partying, and that's
where this Department of Justice
00:14:56
investigation stems from he was
making. Venmo payments to two
00:15:01
women who now accuse him of
sleeping with them. One of them
00:15:06
was underage. Their Venmo
payments, going back to they
00:15:09
accumulates like $10,000 about,
you know, all kinds of different
00:15:14
things that his again, accusers
say were related to underage sex
00:15:19
with underage women and
trafficking, and the Department
00:15:22
of Justice, even though they
were investigating this, did
00:15:25
ultimately drop the case. Now,
one of Matt Gates's major
00:15:28
accusers is actually one of his
best friends, former best
00:15:31
friends, a man named Joel
Greenberg, who was a tax
00:15:34
collector in Seminole County,
Florida. This is all very
00:15:37
Florida stuff, and Greenberg is
now serving a prison sentence,
00:15:41
he pleaded guilty to very, very
serious charges sex trafficking
00:15:45
and the like. Greenberg accuses
gates of having sex with minors,
00:15:49
of paying for sex, and of all of
these different very serious
00:15:54
allegations. Greenberg, though
you can understand why people in
00:15:58
Maga camps would say as a wildly
unreliable witness. He has
00:16:01
admitted to making up smears
about people's sex lives before,
00:16:05
so he's definitely a hard person
to say is probably credible,
00:16:09
which is probably part of the
reason why the Department of
00:16:12
Justice, even though they were
in a plea agreement with him,
00:16:15
there was an inmate that was in
prison with Joel Greenberg, who
00:16:18
said he told him that he had
women. Greenberg told him he had
00:16:21
women who would agree to lie
about Matt Gaetz in exchange for
00:16:25
money. Down the road, the women
themselves, there are questions
00:16:29
about their credibility, and
even though the Department of
00:16:32
Justice really wanted to get
Matt Gaetz very hard, they ended
00:16:36
up dropping the case. What's
leaking out now is an ethics
00:16:39
investigation that the House
Ethics Committee was doing until
00:16:42
Trump nominated gates, he
resigned just a couple of hours
00:16:45
later. Thus, the House Ethics
Committee, which was set to
00:16:48
release this report in a couple
of days time, reportedly had to
00:16:52
drop it because Matt Gates was
no longer a member of Congress.
00:16:55
Now the Senate is demanding to
see that even Trump supportive
00:16:59
senators are demanding to see
that ethics report before gates
00:17:03
goes up for confirmation. So
this is a very, very complicated
00:17:07
and sordid story, but that
ethics report has become the
00:17:11
centerpiece of the debate over
whether or not gates should be
00:17:15
or can be confirmed.
00:17:17
I mean, if I'm in the center of
Trump world right now trying to
00:17:21
put together an administration
on the back of this historic
00:17:24
win. I think that cuts two ways,
doesn't it? Either you think we
00:17:27
are not going to be diverted by
what you see as yet another
00:17:31
partisan attack. It's like
justice Kavanaugh or whatever,
00:17:34
and you feel like the whole
principle of the Trump victory
00:17:38
is not to give in to these kinds
of partisan attacks, not to
00:17:42
compromise with your opponents.
I can see that argument being
00:17:45
made inside Trump World. Surely.
The other argument is that they
00:17:50
don't have time for this kind of
distraction. Which of those two
00:17:53
arguments do you think wins out
if you're you know, if you're
00:17:56
advising the president elect?
00:17:57
We got a good indication
yesterday from Trump himself,
00:18:00
who was asked if he was
reconsidering the gates
00:18:03
nomination, and he just said,
No, I think that will absolutely
00:18:07
win out. Now, the question is
whether he can. JD, Vance is
00:18:11
here in DC this week, trying to
make inroads for Matt gates,
00:18:14
making calls, taking meetings
with senators, trying to make
00:18:16
inroads for gates to have a
friendlier and smoother path to
00:18:20
confirmation, we have seen
certain people. Mark Wayne
00:18:23
Mullen is a senator from
Oklahoma. He's actually the
00:18:25
senator who told CNN before Matt
Gates was nominated, when the
00:18:28
DOJ was investigating him, that
gates would show off pictures of
00:18:33
the naked women he had allegedly
slept with on his phone when
00:18:36
they were on the House floor.
Mark Wayne Mullen said he
00:18:39
supports Gates's nomination
because he trusts Trump that
00:18:42
Trump was elected as a
disrupter. So what that tells me
00:18:46
is that the pitch that is being
made by JD Vance and by Donald
00:18:49
Trump himself, and even by Matt
gates is working on senators
00:18:54
whether, though it's enough to
get him over the confirmation
00:18:57
threshold in such a closely
divided Senate, I still don't
00:19:00
see how the math works out for
that, but they really are going
00:19:04
to have to promise to give
people things and in exchange
00:19:08
for confirming Matt gates,
because people really, really
00:19:11
don't want to do it, even Maga
friendly people don't want to do
00:19:13
it the way they see this as two
things can be true. The
00:19:16
Department of Justice can badly
need disruption and can badly
00:19:20
need to shake up. Three things
can be true. The left can also
00:19:23
be targeting Matt gates. And
thirdly, Matt gates can be the
00:19:26
wrong person for this job,
because of all of the
00:19:29
distractions and because of all
the political capital it's going
00:19:32
to take just to get him
confirmed, why not nominate Jim
00:19:35
Jordan, somebody that won't have
a rocky confirmation path get
00:19:39
him in there, and he's
substantially, substantively,
00:19:42
almost the same on all of these
issues. So why not just do it
00:19:44
that way? That's sort of the
argument. Why
00:19:47
does Trump like Matt Gaetz so
much? What is it about him that
00:19:51
they think is worth this battle?
You know, really spending
00:19:54
valuable political capital
already trying to, you know,
00:19:58
horse trade with senators,
trying to. Smooth his passage.
00:20:01
Why spend it on Matt Gaetz?
00:20:04
Precisely because of everything
we've just talked about,
00:20:07
precisely because Matt Gaetz was
targeted by the Department of
00:20:10
Justice. Dropped their
allegations. They were leaking
00:20:13
the whole time, though, and has
become definitely an enemy of
00:20:17
what people in Maga world refer
to as the deep state. That is
00:20:20
exactly why Trump and his allies
are so deeply attached to Matt
00:20:24
Gaetz, because Matt Gaetz has
become one of the harshest
00:20:27
critics of the Department of
Justice. He was extremely
00:20:30
unwavering, unwaveringly pro
Trump during the Russia
00:20:34
collusion investigation. He was
very friendly with conservative
00:20:38
media during that time, he was
always ardently defensive of
00:20:41
Donald Trump. He's also very
solid across policies in kind of
00:20:45
the Maga agenda. He's very, very
populist on anti trust. He's
00:20:50
very much against excessive
surveillance, and what he sees
00:20:54
is unconstitutional
surveillance, and that is really
00:20:58
popular with people in Trump
world who want to say things
00:21:01
like FISA. So that's the FISA
courts that came out of the
00:21:04
church committee hearings back
in the 1970 to cut down the
00:21:07
1970s to cut down on illegal
surveillance of American
00:21:11
citizens that's near and dear to
Maga voters hearts and near and
00:21:14
dear to Trump's heart, because
obviously he his campaign was
00:21:18
targeted in ways that even the
DOJ has admitted were improper.
00:21:22
So that is it's precisely Matt
Gates's enmity towards the DOJ
00:21:28
that makes him so beloved by
Trump world. So
00:21:31
they think he's a radical, and
you need someone back, kind of
00:21:33
out there to make such a radical
agenda happen. The opponents,
00:21:37
however, say that he is being
put in place to pursue political
00:21:41
prosecutions, or basically
converting the Department of
00:21:46
Justice into a political tool,
such as they feel has been done
00:21:50
against them by the Democratic
side, right back at people who
00:21:54
they don't like on the other
side of the aisle. Is there any
00:21:56
truth in that?
00:21:58
Yes, absolutely, the pledge that
Donald Trump made to be quote
00:22:02
retribution on the campaign
trail is fulfilled in the form
00:22:05
of Matt gates, which again, is
why people in Maga world like
00:22:08
him, because the Department of
Justice has myriad problems they
00:22:13
are plain to see. And the more
the people at the Department of
00:22:18
Justice seen as like the careers
the bureaucrats detest Matt
00:22:22
gates the more it makes Donald
Trump. Even all of this hollow
00:22:25
blue it makes Donald Trump more
and more committed to trying to
00:22:29
get Matt Gaetz through the
Senate, because they hate him so
00:22:34
so much. And yeah, I mean,
that's basically where this is
00:22:38
going to go. Is Matt gates will
openly. He won't hide. He won't
00:22:41
say, Oh, I'm just following the
letter of the wall the law.
00:22:43
He'll be somebody who is
passionately and
00:22:47
enthusiastically defending
retribution on television, on X,
00:22:52
on social media, on podcasts.
When he is the Attorney General,
00:22:56
he will be out there saying,
this is exactly what needs to
00:22:59
happen. If he's confirmed, of
course, he'll be saying you did
00:23:02
this to us, and that's how
people in Trump World say you
00:23:06
communicate to the American
people who maybe don't know
00:23:09
exactly how the DOJ was
weaponized under Obama and under
00:23:13
the Biden administration. As
they see it,
00:23:15
it would still be a big new
step, wouldn't it have the
00:23:18
Attorney General going on TV and
openly talking about weaponizing
00:23:22
the Justice Department against
political enemies, feels like
00:23:25
we're a long way from an ideal
liberal democracy at that point.
00:23:29
I mean, am I being too soggy
centrist to say that? It feels
00:23:33
like it might be a big step,
even if you can make those
00:23:37
critiques of the Obama and Biden
administrations, they didn't say
00:23:41
the quiet part out loud, that
would be the whole new step it
00:23:46
is. And this is the central
debate on what is in what is
00:23:48
called the quote unquote new
right. So I don't think it makes
00:23:51
anybody a soggy centrist to have
those concerns, which is that,
00:23:53
do you need a quote unquote red
Caesar, as Michael Anton put it,
00:23:58
in order to restore the health
of the American republic. There
00:24:03
are a lot of people who think
absolutely you need to go back
00:24:06
in and fight fire with fire.
Otherwise you don't restore
00:24:10
anything. You aren't you don't
restore, quote, American
00:24:12
greatness, unless you're willing
to fight fire with fire. I
00:24:16
completely disagree with that. I
think it careens us down a very,
00:24:19
very slippery slope that is very
real, and we're seeing it happen
00:24:23
before our eyes. So I'm not
convinced by that argument, but
00:24:26
the new right itself is sort of
split half and half on that
00:24:29
question, and Gates has become a
lightning rod for people on both
00:24:33
sides,
00:24:34
so chances of him being
confirmed score out of 10,
00:24:37
I would right now give it a
five, because it's, I mean, I
00:24:42
just don't think the math works.
I think Trump will be able to
00:24:45
convince a lot of senators to
get on board the gates train. I
00:24:48
don't know that ultimately he'll
be able to convince enough of
00:24:51
them to get on the gates train.
00:24:53
Let's move on to health because,
RFK, I don't not sure if you
00:24:58
predicted it or not. I. He was
talked about, and obviously
00:25:01
there was the sense that they'd
done a deal. He'd come on board
00:25:05
the Trump campaign. He'd
suspended his own independent
00:25:08
presidential campaign. Obviously
he was offered something actual
00:25:12
secretary for health. I mean,
was it a surprise to you? Trump
00:25:17
sort of took his time in naming
Robert F Kennedy Jr to cabinet
00:25:22
nomination. And so there were, I
think, open questions about
00:25:26
whether that meant he was
wavering, and whether he was
00:25:28
just going to make Kennedy a
czar of some sort, which would
00:25:31
be seen as a sort of demotion
from a potential, obviously,
00:25:34
Cabinet position. One thing that
I heard from a source in Maga
00:25:38
world actually worked in the
first Trump administration is
00:25:41
that Kennedy was the clear
choice of DC Maga people that
00:25:47
they wanted him really badly.
And what I find interesting
00:25:50
about that is it shows that the
Make America healthy again and
00:25:53
make America great again.
Marriage is complete, people who
00:25:57
were formally very opposed to
Robert F Kennedy, Jr, who, by
00:26:00
the way, was under consideration
by Barack Obama for the head of
00:26:03
the Environmental Protection
Agency. Obama considered
00:26:06
nominating RFK Junior for his
cabinet back in 2008 that
00:26:11
somebody who has said that, you
know, climate deniers should be
00:26:14
jailed, has very, very
oppositional positions to a lot
00:26:19
of his new colleagues in Trump
world. He's actually now been
00:26:23
like, totally folded in to the
camp. Is very well liked and is
00:26:28
seen as somebody who's on the
right track. So I wasn't
00:26:30
entirely surprised by it, but if
you take a step back and look at
00:26:33
it from a 30,000 foot view, it
is surprising to see people like
00:26:37
Robert F Kennedy Jr, and Tulsi
Gabbard and Elon Musk
00:26:40
surrounding Trump right now, I
saw one funny post on X that put
00:26:43
it this way, the Democrats did
win the election. These are just
00:26:47
not people, of course, that call
themselves Democrats anymore,
00:26:50
but it's still fairly
unconventional for someone like
00:26:52
Trump to nominate someone like
Kennedy.
00:26:55
So what would we actually expect
if Kennedy is confirmed?
00:26:59
Obviously, he's his main
objective would be to kind of
00:27:03
root out the corruption, as he
sees it, to separate corporate
00:27:07
interests from government health
advice, to reduce dependence on
00:27:14
chemicals and pharmaceuticals
that he sees has gone completely
00:27:17
wild over recent decades, all of
those, a lot of people on the
00:27:21
left or the right might just
think are pretty laudable aims.
00:27:25
The more controversial bit, I
guess, comes with the his
00:27:29
attitude to vaccines, some of
his more conspiratorial ideas. I
00:27:33
mean, how do you judge RFK on
the kind of sane to Kook
00:27:38
spectrum?
00:27:40
Yeah, he's also sort of
fascinating from the perspective
00:27:43
that part of his approach to the
regulatory patchwork in the
00:27:47
United States, and especially
the more time I think he spends
00:27:50
around people like Elon Musk, is
that the government is both
00:27:52
doing way too much and way too
little, which raises a trillion
00:27:56
dollar question about as the
head of a regulatory agency,
00:27:59
does he use the full weight of
the government power, even in
00:28:03
ways that he's before said are
too heavy handed. The government
00:28:06
shouldn't have the right to tell
you not to drink raw milk. Or
00:28:10
does he like, does he actually
try to take powers away from the
00:28:14
agency? Because in some
respects, he said it's it's not
00:28:16
powerful enough. It's not using
its regulatory power because
00:28:19
it's captured by corporate
interests. So it's very hard to
00:28:23
know what a Kennedy HHS would
look like, Health and Human
00:28:26
Services Department would look
like, because we've never really
00:28:29
seen anybody like that before.
In fact, Biden, Joe Biden had
00:28:33
such a hard time finding
somebody to head up his agencies
00:28:38
that wasn't connected to the
industry, he eventually just
00:28:41
kind of gave up on that, on his
ability to find somebody who
00:28:46
would be a good fit for these
roles that doesn't have all of
00:28:49
the kind of industry baggage. So
this is totally, I think this is
00:28:52
totally uncharted territory. We
know some of his pet issues,
00:28:55
vaccines, fluoride, obviously,
I'm sure he still has a lot to
00:29:01
do with COVID, like he still
will want to do some regulations
00:29:06
as it pertains to ongoing
boosters. We know that those are
00:29:08
some of his pet issues. Raw milk
is another one. There are things
00:29:12
that he's very clearly talked
about for years that he wants to
00:29:15
tackle. So we'll see. He's been
talking a lot in conversations
00:29:19
with Maga, people on the right
about food, food safety, food
00:29:23
health, and those are areas that
Republicans are new to. So is
00:29:27
there enough personnel to staff
a RFK Junior, HHS, in a way that
00:29:31
makes sense. Another huge
question, like, will he even
00:29:34
have the people to do what he
wants to do? I don't know. I
00:29:39
mean in terms of potential
political fissures and tensions.
00:29:43
This has got to be right up at
the top of the list. I would
00:29:46
have thought, I mean, you've got
someone in RFK Jr who is really
00:29:49
a lifelong campaigner on race
issues as well as environmental
00:29:54
issues. He's a, he's a true
believer on the climate agenda.
00:29:57
Make, you know, make no mistake
at any kind. Of big departures
00:30:01
that a Trump administration will
want to do, from signing up to
00:30:04
climate treaties, the whole kind
of approach. RFK is going to
00:30:08
struggle with that. And then you
can imagine if, if Donald Trump
00:30:12
does actually get serious about
deporting illegal immigrants,
00:30:15
and there are lots of scenes of
people from different races
00:30:19
being put into vans and shipped
over the border. These could be
00:30:23
very difficult moments for
someone like RFK. He must have
00:30:25
thought about this, but it's
hard to see how they might well.
00:30:31
It's hard to see how there won't
be any tensions in the years to
00:30:33
come. It
00:30:35
really is because he shifted
when he was courting Trump
00:30:38
voters on the campaign trail,
first as a Democratic candidate,
00:30:41
then as an independent
candidate, and then even as he
00:30:43
was trying to support Trump on
the campaign trail after he
00:30:45
formally joined the campaign, he
was talking a lot about his own
00:30:50
shifts on immigration and
transgender issues. And so he
00:30:54
has been willing to say, okay,
maybe I was maybe I was wrong,
00:30:58
and maybe the Republicans and
Donald Trump himself are right
00:31:02
on this question. I also wonder
about those potential tensions,
00:31:06
and I wonder about Robert F
Kennedy Jr, a man who has spent
00:31:11
his career dedicated to making
sweeping radical changes, being
00:31:16
given this post on a silver
platter, if he can get
00:31:19
confirmed, but given being given
this post on the silver platter,
00:31:22
how badly how many compromises
will he make to keep that
00:31:26
position? Because this is like
his fantasy coming true, so how
00:31:30
badly will he want to keep it?
How many compromises will he
00:31:34
have to make to keep it? Totally
open question.
00:31:37
I mean, we've interviewed him on
this show as well, and he
00:31:40
definitely strikes me as an
idealist, someone who is
00:31:44
sincere. Whether you think he's
right or not is a different
00:31:47
question, but he's sincere in
what he believes, and he has the
00:31:50
huge weight of history on his
shoulders, with the sense of,
00:31:54
obviously, his father, his
uncle, the whole Kennedy family,
00:31:58
and what he kind of owes to his
heritage, but also now he's
00:32:01
embedded in Hollywood. His his
wife is a famous actor. He's got
00:32:06
a whole lot of pressures around
him from there, so there will be
00:32:09
a lot of pressures on an
idealistic RFK, and maybe
00:32:13
he's able to animate some of
those old connections with the
00:32:16
left. Cory Booker, very hard
left Democratic establishment
00:32:22
Senator, I shouldn't say hard
left in the sense that he's like
00:32:25
Marxist, I mean that in the
sense that he is a loyalist to
00:32:28
the party, has since come out
and said he's open minded about
00:32:31
Robert F, Kennedy Jr. Mary Ann
Williamson told us on
00:32:33
undercurrents that she's open
minded to Robert F, Kennedy Jr,
00:32:36
and she's sort of someone that's
much further the left than Cory
00:32:38
Booker. But Can those old ties
be used by him when he gets into
00:32:44
trouble, maybe with Maga world,
maybe with the establishment
00:32:46
Republicans who are close with
lobbyists in the pharma world
00:32:49
and in the agricultural world.
That's also really, really
00:32:53
interesting. I'm very curious
how that plays out. Too little
00:32:57
bit of a shout out to Dr Oz.
It's not technically a cabinet
00:33:00
level post. So it shouldn't be
in our discussion, but it was
00:33:03
announced just, I think, today
or yesterday. This is Mehmet Oz,
00:33:07
who is a another TV personality
we were saying it's kind of the
00:33:10
TV cabinet. Tell us a little bit
about him. Is this, is this
00:33:14
kooky appointment, or is there
some sense behind it?
00:33:17
Well, Dr Oz is somebody who's a
very, kind of very, very
00:33:21
Trumpian pick, given that what
Donald Trump reportedly wants,
00:33:24
and you know, understandably
wants from his cabinet and his
00:33:28
leaders is an ability to defend
policies and to defend him,
00:33:33
frankly and dr oz ran for Senate
in Pennsylvania and lost by a
00:33:36
hair to John Fetterman last
cycle, obviously, Pennsylvania
00:33:41
just swung, swung red, and a lot
of people thought that was a big
00:33:44
missed opportunity, that it
should have been a pretty easy
00:33:47
election for Republicans,
especially given John
00:33:50
fetterman's health condition.
But even you know, more broadly,
00:33:54
Pennsylvania's political
condition, Donald Trump won that
00:33:57
state soundly this time around,
and Oz was very loyal to Trump
00:34:00
over the course of that race,
and he has been very loyal to
00:34:03
Trump. So this is not a super,
super powerful position, but it
00:34:07
is one in which he's overseeing
very important programs for
00:34:10
people here, Medicare and
Medicaid.
00:34:12
So Mehmet Oz TV, very successful
TV personality. He's going to be
00:34:18
in charge of Medicare and
Medicaid, right, very
00:34:21
important programs for seniors
and people in poverty in the
00:34:25
United States. And one thing
that might be controversial and
00:34:27
is worth watching for him he
does have to get Senate
00:34:30
confirmed, is whether or not his
past idea about kind of
00:34:35
privatizing Medicare, he's
called it Medicare for Medicare
00:34:39
Advantage for all which, if
you're in the US, you're
00:34:41
familiar with Medicare
Advantage, and you know that
00:34:43
it's sort of controversial, it's
a step towards privatization.
00:34:46
Does that hurt him? Donald Trump
is very much in favor of
00:34:49
protecting those programs. So
does that become a source of
00:34:52
tension? I think he'll get
confirmed. But, you know,
00:34:56
obviously a big TV personality
in the US, compared to people
00:34:58
like Oprah daytime. Television
doctor, he'll come with some
00:35:02
baggage, but a lot of that was
already tested in the Senate
00:35:05
race, education,
00:35:06
another recent one in the last
couple of days, Lyndon McMahon,
00:35:11
apparently a Trump loyalist,
someone with a business
00:35:14
background, not someone
especially connected to
00:35:16
education. It's fair to say, was
that a surprising pick? Do you
00:35:20
think
00:35:21
I was shocked by that? And my
people in kind of conservative
00:35:25
education circles, were very
surprised by it. It's not
00:35:28
shocking like from a big picture
standpoint, because she is loyal
00:35:31
to Trump. She was under
consideration for Commerce
00:35:33
Secretary, but when Donald Trump
named Howard lutnic to Commerce
00:35:37
Secretary, somebody who had
himself been in consideration
00:35:40
for Treasury Secretary, he sort
of slotted McMahon into the
00:35:44
education secretary, which makes
it feel kind of like a
00:35:47
consolation prize, especially
because she's not somebody like
00:35:51
Betsy DeVos, who has dedicated
her life to education policy.
00:35:55
She's obviously had some overlap
with it. But one thing my source
00:35:58
said this morning is that like
nobody who works in the world of
00:36:01
school choice, which is the most
important conservative policy
00:36:04
voucher systems that you know
education world on the right
00:36:08
works on, they don't even really
know her. They're not super
00:36:10
familiar with her, which will
make it very interesting when it
00:36:13
comes time to staff the agency,
frankly. But it does seem like
00:36:16
this was kind of a consolation
prize to a staunch Trump
00:36:19
loyalist, somebody who was the
head of his small business
00:36:22
administration in his first time
in office and has been out there
00:36:25
on the trail for him. She her
and her husband Vince McMahon,
00:36:29
are the brains behind WWE
wrestling, so also kind of
00:36:32
Trumpian and television related
in that sense. But it seems like
00:36:36
she kind of got stuck with
education secretary, even though
00:36:39
it's a very important position.
What
00:36:41
does it tell us about Trump's
attitude to education and that
00:36:45
department? I mean, at one point
in the campaign, there was an
00:36:48
idea he might actually try to
shut down the Department for
00:36:51
Education and return all
education policy to the states.
00:36:55
Again, most people think that
might not happen. In reality,
00:36:58
what does it say about how
radical he's he's prepared to be
00:37:02
on education that he picks
someone so apparently, kind of
00:37:05
random for this post.
00:37:08
You know, there are a lot of
options in conservative world.
00:37:10
Conservative think tanks and
activist groups are stuffed to
00:37:14
the brim with very radical
people on Education Policy. The
00:37:17
Heritage Foundation, for
example, this was in Project
00:37:20
2025 and got a lot of attention,
but the Heritage Foundation has
00:37:23
been advocating for closing the
Department of Education for
00:37:26
decades, like going back to the
80s, Ronald Reagan got
00:37:29
criticized for not closing the
Department of Education down. So
00:37:32
there are a lot of like rock
ribbed people that would have, I
00:37:35
think, an easier time doing that
than somebody who's, you know,
00:37:39
of course, they're WWE friendly,
but they're very wealthy. Kind
00:37:43
of coastal, well connected
people, the McMahons, and do
00:37:47
they have the stomach to take
radical steps? I think there are
00:37:50
other people who probably would
have been much more terrifying
00:37:53
to the left. And indeed, we've
already seen Randy Weingarten
00:37:55
come out and say, I'm open to
learning more about what Linda
00:37:58
McMahon thinks on Education
Policy. And what I'm
00:38:00
hearing is that your contacts in
Trump world think she is not
00:38:04
Trumpy enough. This is a this is
an example of a cabinet pick
00:38:09
that is not Trumpy enough.
00:38:11
It's interesting because it's
like, what is Trumpy on
00:38:14
Education Policy? Is it closing
the department of education
00:38:17
because he's had different
approaches to it himself? I
00:38:20
would say their perspective is
that she's not conservative
00:38:23
enough. She's not like a hard
core dyed in the wool, quote,
00:38:27
unquote, movement conservative
who's deeply passionate about
00:38:31
education and has been working
to close the Department of
00:38:33
Education for decades. But Trump
did Telegraph in his statement
00:38:37
that he was nominating her she
would, quote, return education
00:38:39
to the states. So does that mean
a full closure of the
00:38:41
department? Does that mean
department? Does that mean a
00:38:43
radical, aggressive new embrace
of federalism? It's kind of too
00:38:48
early to tell, but she doesn't
have the stomach that you know a
00:38:50
lot of people out there like
Chris Rufo probably have.
00:38:54
Emily. There are a number of
other big posts still to fill. I
00:38:58
know we have a new homeland
security secretary nominee in
00:39:02
the form of Kirsty nom Elise
Stefanik, of course, Ambassador
00:39:06
to the United Nations. And if we
had more time, we'd talk about
00:39:09
all of those. Of course, the
Treasury secretary is also open
00:39:12
and may or may not be bestened.
There may be other candidates
00:39:15
that are coming up in the coming
days, but I wanted to use our
00:39:19
final few moments to just zoom
out a bit. In amongst all these
00:39:23
names, there are a couple of
other names that we haven't
00:39:25
mentioned. That's Elon Musk and
JD Vance. Neither of those are
00:39:30
technically cabinet roles. JD
Vance, obviously vice president
00:39:34
elect. He seems strangely absent
at the moment. We see every day
00:39:39
we get a new picture of Trump
out on the road. He's going to a
00:39:43
wrestling match with his best
friend, Elon. He's going to
00:39:45
watch Elon's rocket launch. He's
they're kind of inseparable,
00:39:49
this new duo, and in the minds
of voters who have been used to
00:39:53
a Trump Vance pairing, this
might start to look a little bit
00:39:57
like a Trump Musk pairing. Yeah.
And frankly, it looks like Elon
00:40:01
Musk is number two in the
administration, and Vance has
00:40:04
been forgotten about. Is that
wrong? Well,
00:40:07
it's quite interesting, because
JD, Vance has been here in DC,
00:40:10
not really. I mean, he has been
down at Mar a Lago, of course.
00:40:13
And his his primary task right
now seems to be absolutely
00:40:18
convincing members of the
Senate. He's a member of the
00:40:21
Senate himself to support these
nominees. He's been very, very
00:40:26
working very, very hard to get
the Senate to support Republican
00:40:29
senators to support Matt Gaetz.
He was in the Senate for the
00:40:32
vote on new Senate leadership
just last week. So he's working
00:40:36
to sort of staff the
administration, but also to
00:40:39
embolden the Senate to create a
smoother pass for some of these
00:40:43
unorthodox, unconventional and
controversial nominees. Elon
00:40:47
Musk is apparently starting to
rankle people in Trump circles.
00:40:50
They've been leaking to the
press that he just won't go
00:40:53
away, and he always seems
around. We haven't quite seen
00:40:57
Trump express that sentiment
himself yet. Though he's even as
00:41:01
we're recording this, he's with
Elon Musk at a Space X launch.
00:41:05
So they're tied up a hip
seemingly, and Elon Musk has
00:41:09
been lobbying for particular
Cabinet picks. Now his pick of
00:41:12
Howard lutnic for Treasury
secretary. He publicly came out
00:41:16
and said, I think lutnic is the
guy for this job. He's the
00:41:18
disrupter Trump did not go with
lunti for Treasury secretary. So
00:41:22
how much influence Musk has,
even though he's spending a lot
00:41:25
of time around Trump, I don't
know. I would imagine it's
00:41:28
pretty significant. He's not
going to have a formal
00:41:31
appointment through the
government the Doge, obviously,
00:41:34
to the Department of government
efficiency that he is now
00:41:36
heading up with the lake
Ramaswamy. It's going to be
00:41:39
outside the US government, and
it will reportedly collaborate
00:41:43
with the White House and the
Office of Management. I'm
00:41:45
sorry, Emily, but that one, I
really struggled to swallow the
00:41:48
idea, oh, we've created a
department. Clue is in the name
00:41:52
of government efficiency, that's
department and government in the
00:41:56
name of this body, and it's
going to be outside government.
00:41:59
I mean, and meanwhile, the head
of it is going to be at the
00:42:02
President's side all the time.
Is going to be on the calls with
00:42:05
other world leaders like, you
know, Volodymyr Zelensky of
00:42:09
Ukraine and others. Wells Vance,
by the way, is not on those
00:42:13
calls. You know, you struggle to
sell that as being outside the
00:42:16
government in any meaningful
way. It's
00:42:19
amusing on a couple of levels,
one that they have announced a
00:42:22
government, a government agency
to tackle redundancy in
00:42:25
government by creating a
redundant agency. There are
00:42:29
already, of course, I would say,
not particularly well
00:42:31
functioning agencies, but there
are agencies that exist to
00:42:34
tackle these problems already.
There are inter departmental
00:42:38
agencies that are working on
this too. But the government
00:42:40
accountability office exists,
for example. And it's somewhat
00:42:43
amusing that at the top of this
anti redundancy department are
00:42:48
two heads, you know, but it's
Trump, right? Like, it's very
00:42:52
unconventional. It's very just
free wheeling and Elon Musk and
00:42:57
Vivek Ramaswamy. But especially
Elon Musk don't want to give up
00:43:00
their business interests, and
they would have to do that in
00:43:02
order to go into any formal
government situation. So I think
00:43:06
the ethics of it are incredibly
problematic. But I also am sure
00:43:12
they're about to have a whole
lot of fun here in Washington.
00:43:15
Freddie, right?
00:43:17
So if you're JD Vance, and you
thought you were number two, or
00:43:21
indeed, if you're any other
number of Trump loyalists who've
00:43:24
been putting in the years
getting into his close favors,
00:43:27
making sure that you had the ear
of the future president.
00:43:31
Suddenly, this new guy turns up
Elon Musk, and he's he's
00:43:34
teacher's favorite, at least for
now, you can imagine there'll be
00:43:37
some plotting going on, and a
lot of people might be a little
00:43:40
bit disgruntled. Elon is going
to most likely face some
00:43:44
internal opposition.
00:43:47
Yet the fact that there are
already leaks about that from
00:43:49
Mar a Lago tells you what you
need to know, that he's already
00:43:52
starting to upset people in
Trump circles. And one thing JD
00:43:56
Vance understands very well, and
Mike Pence understood it too, is
00:44:00
that Donald Trump will pick up
on someone who is overshadowing
00:44:05
him or even creeping into that
direction. So it's obviously a
00:44:09
concern. It should be a concern
of Elon Musk to not look like
00:44:12
he's outshining the President
himself, even though Elon Musk
00:44:15
is wealthier and arguably more
powerful given the breadth of
00:44:19
all of his companies. Now you
know that's up for debate, but
00:44:22
it's a fine line that Elon Musk
will have to walk to not get on
00:44:26
Trump's bad side, simply for
soaking up so much media
00:44:30
attention. Lastly, though, I'll
say the people I talked to in
00:44:33
Maga world are sort of like just
all on the Elon bandwagon,
00:44:37
because they understand that he
kind of opened up a new pathway
00:44:41
of towards different people for
Republicans that a lot of people
00:44:45
who are fans of Elon Musk in
tech world that have given the
00:44:47
Democrats for a really long
time. He helped them make those
00:44:50
inroads and those relationships,
definitely helped them with
00:44:53
young men, and gave them so much
money just in the last few
00:44:57
months of the election that they
are kind of like a 10. Attached
00:45:00
to Elon now and loyal to Elon
now too. Just I mean, even the
00:45:03
money alone was enough to kind
of buy their love. Emily,
00:45:07
thanks for your time. Thanks,
Freddie, that was Emily
00:45:11
jacinski, the DC correspondent
of UnHerd Joining us from the
00:45:15
UnHerd Bureau there and giving a
crash course in Donald Trump's
00:45:19
cabinet, at least his cabinet so
far, whether they're likely to
00:45:23
be confirmed, whether they're
popular, crucially, inside Maga
00:45:27
world, which Emily has pretty
unique access to. So I found
00:45:30
that very informative and
interesting as ever. Thank you
00:45:33
to her. Thanks to you for tuning
in. This was UnHerd. You.
