00:00:04
you are Timothy Burton Catlin dr.
00:00:07
Timothy Burton Catlin I should say you
00:00:09
are a reader in architecture at the
00:00:11
University of Kent is that correct
00:00:12
that's correct and your focus of study
00:00:15
has been on predominantly on neo-gothic
00:00:17
architecture
00:03:56
exactly was in terms of the transition
00:03:58
between pre Gothic Revival and Gothic
00:04:02
Revival so I think a lot of people are
00:04:03
fairly aware of the sort of the shift in
00:04:05
modernism perhaps because it's a more
00:04:08
recent thing but perhaps because it's
00:04:10
more relevant because because modernism
00:04:11
has for perpetuated over that time what
00:04:14
was the state of affairs before the
00:04:16
Gothic Revival came along and what were
00:04:18
the series of events that caused it to
00:04:20
occur
00:09:35
[Music]
00:10:05
[Laughter]
00:10:07
yeah when you're talking about the
00:10:09
Grange previously I don't know other
00:10:12
than whether you've said explicitly but
00:10:13
you talked about when you got sort of
00:10:17
everything comes off of one central hall
00:10:19
space and it's effectively it's an
00:10:21
emergent plan out of the function of the
00:10:23
building rather than say a Palladian
00:10:25
example of where you have a specific box
00:10:28
you have to fill in a certain set of
00:10:30
ways and so from a more theoretical
00:10:32
point of view I've and having written
00:10:35
about this previously ice or sea gothic
00:10:37
and consequently Gothic Revival as an
00:10:39
emergent philosophy in architecture
00:10:42
effectively that it's I mean it's
00:10:44
obviously a cliche to say form follows
00:10:46
function but it's a it's it comes out of
00:10:49
what the building has to do and how its
00:10:51
oriented and how its how its fulfilling
00:10:54
the function that you wanted to fulfill
00:10:56
rather than sort of a top-down imposed
00:10:59
view of the theory of the philosophy
00:11:02
behind it so would you is the was there
00:11:04
any aspect that leading up to the Gothic
00:11:06
river
00:11:06
in terms of a philosophical change or a
00:11:08
political change or a general
00:11:12
theoretical change as to why people felt
00:11:14
that this direction was the way to go at
00:11:17
that point in time
00:13:53
[Music]
00:15:22
[Music]
00:15:32
I was in the Palace of Westminster the
00:16:18
other day and you get that feeling even
00:16:19
though they're not explicitly cloisters
00:16:21
you do get that but you say processional
00:16:23
feeling of moving between spaces and
00:16:25
obstacles Barry was involved in the
00:16:26
actual planning of the building but the
00:16:28
sort of the sense you get that you are
00:16:30
entering different voids different
00:16:32
spaces and then different processions or
00:16:35
corridors between them is a very strong
00:16:37
sense and I guess Putin's detailing is a
00:16:39
large part of that
00:18:27
sounds like
00:20:05
hmm now I think it's interesting that
00:20:07
you mentioned the this idea of the
00:20:09
architect becoming the central figure
00:20:11
again because I think there's almost a
00:20:14
similar argument going on now in terms
00:20:16
of the sort of the the role of the
00:20:17
architect and the marginalization of the
00:20:18
architect
00:20:19
so was that something that was happening
00:20:20
before Huijin came along before the
00:20:22
Gothic Revival was the architect
00:20:24
becoming a more marginalized figure back
00:20:25
then as well at least not at the
00:21:14
conscious level
00:21:32
[Music]
00:22:16
was there a strong aspect to the ego too
00:22:18
as well at fusion strikes me might say
00:22:20
he wasn't a normal person in any any
00:22:22
traditional sense of normal but was was
00:22:26
that sort of sense of the egotistical
00:22:28
architect almost a stereotype I guess
00:22:30
was that a strong element in in his
00:22:33
philosophy in returning to this central
00:22:36
idea of the architect
00:23:29
[Music]
00:25:44
to that extent does the Gothic and
00:25:47
Gothic Revival only really lend itself
00:25:49
therefore to public buildings or prot
00:25:52
singular prominent buildings that have
00:25:54
apt higher budgets or where quality is
00:25:56
put in a more important place than four
00:26:00
units or cost per square meter or
00:26:02
anything
00:26:33
[Music]
00:27:22
[Music]
00:28:17
yeah you definitely get a sense of the
00:28:19
theatrical when you're in his buildings
00:28:21
well I don't know whether that's just
00:28:22
cuz we're not used to those kinds of
00:28:23
buildings anymore all that kind of
00:28:25
detailing so what was it that stopped
00:28:28
Gothic Revival architecture from
00:28:30
spreading more widely and from self from
00:28:32
leeching into a more domestic
00:28:34
architecture or mass housing or anything
00:28:36
like that in the same way that Georgian
00:28:37
did
00:30:16
tell me
00:30:59
there's almost a contradiction from what
00:31:01
I can see cuz gothic is very a very
00:31:03
vertical style eventually all sense of
00:31:05
building and then obviously lends itself
00:31:07
to ecclesiastical architecture
00:31:08
cathedrals churches because of that and
00:31:10
that the the domestic has always been a
00:31:12
more horizontal realm generally and as
00:31:15
and therefore lends itself less well
00:31:17
perhaps to Gothic architecture as a as a
00:31:19
style
00:32:34
[Music]
00:33:49
so was he the the sort of pioneer of the
00:33:53
gothic revival movement or whether did
00:33:55
he have followers around him or was he
00:33:56
sort of taking something that someone
00:33:58
else had started and developing further
00:35:00
[Music]
00:35:02
so what happened towards the end of the
00:35:05
Gothic Revival then what what drove
00:35:08
people to even become tired of it
00:35:10
because I understand it sort of got out
00:35:12
of hand effectively and there was a in
00:35:14
the Edwardian period
00:36:22
yeah and then obviously we transitioned
00:36:25
into the modernist period through
00:36:28
various means but that's I mean you talk
00:36:31
about people getting bored but modernism
00:36:33
effectively has been around for
00:36:34
effectively a hundred years now in its
00:36:36
various forms and awfully they've been
00:36:38
reactions against it temporarily with
00:36:40
post-modernism but where do you sort of
00:36:43
see architectural theory being at now in
00:36:46
terms of the status and where do you
00:36:47
think it might go and then sort of
00:36:49
coming years
00:37:59
your public houses
00:39:28
[Music]
00:39:29
what do you think there are eternal
00:39:32
truths in architecture the transcend
00:39:35
time periods
00:41:40
well I've been wondering recently about
00:41:45
why it is that classicism has this sort
00:41:47
of cult following and what it's a very
00:41:48
small number of people and why that
00:41:50
doesn't apply to whether it's gothic or
00:41:52
any other historical styles and I think
00:41:54
I think you're you're right in to touch
00:41:56
on the idea of this sort of almost
00:41:58
utopian perfect idea of or maybe
00:42:00
Arcadian idea an ideal city that's built
00:42:04
with these classical elements and maybe
00:42:07
that doesn't like say relate to a more
00:42:10
gothic philosophy which I would call
00:42:12
emergent and that doesn't fit this or
00:42:15
the perfect symmetrical laid out
00:42:18
narrative
00:42:50
[Laughter]
00:43:50
do you think the the modernist suppose
00:43:52
that's a homogeneous group fit into that
00:43:54
so Puritan idea or is that
00:44:59
[Music]
00:45:23
I think is mentioned earlier about
00:46:40
gothic being able to be adapted and
00:46:42
added to more easily because of the Nets
00:46:44
constructed and not having the same
00:46:46
tools symmetrical constraints that
00:46:47
classicism has and I think is I mean you
00:46:50
can see this in the examples looking at
00:46:52
luncheons his houses the other day when
00:46:53
he's no it's not Gothic Revival but
00:46:55
adding on to something that's four
00:46:57
hundred years older and you can barely
00:46:59
tell the difference because it's
00:47:00
continuing a same sorta lhasa fee and
00:47:02
let you say it doesn't fit that
00:47:04
symmetrical ideal so I think in terms of
00:47:09
the again trying to link this back to
00:47:11
the sort of theoretical side of it you
00:47:12
think there's a strong political element
00:47:14
in the advocating of certain style
00:47:18
styles or ways of building over others
00:47:20
others of political groups that match
00:47:23
quite closely with architectural groups
00:47:26
effectively
00:49:33
yeah struck me how little conversation
00:49:37
there is both in opposing education and
00:49:40
in especially in practice about why you
00:49:42
built something a particular way about
00:49:44
like about the theory effectively but
00:49:47
saying why are we doing this this way
00:49:49
why are we doing that that way not just
00:49:51
oh let's do this this way and end of
00:49:53
conversation
00:50:55
[Music]
00:52:33
you have a person language on your
00:52:36
reading list
00:54:06
yeah well I was flicking through my copy
00:54:09
of it again the other day and realizing
00:54:11
how useful it could have been had I
00:54:12
actually paid more attention to it at
00:54:14
the time yeah yeah it's true yeah no I
00:54:36
agree with you about the state of theory
00:54:38
in in architectural education no it
00:54:40
wasn't until after certainly after
00:54:42
undergraduate and well into sort of post
00:54:45
graduate that I actually got properly
00:54:47
into theory and start to think really
00:54:49
about why it is that we're building the
00:54:50
things that we're building but again
00:54:54
going back to the contemporary state of
00:54:55
affairs for a second if we've been
00:54:58
through obviously in the eight seventies
00:55:00
and eighties the post modernist reaction
00:55:02
to modernism and then it's F things are
00:55:07
sort of reverted and then just sort
00:55:08
Rundle along since then and now there's
00:55:12
this new conversation with the
00:55:14
government's new building beautiful
00:55:15
Commission and appointing Sir Roger
00:55:17
Scruton and to lead a commission what
00:55:21
are your thoughts on how that might play
00:55:24
out and how how the architectural
00:55:26
profession can react to it or engage
00:55:29
with it or what what direction should
00:55:32
the conversation be going in in terms of
00:55:34
how architectural theory and practice
00:55:36
developed from here
00:56:37
do you think there's an inn there's a
00:56:39
social sensitivity because of what
00:56:41
happened in the 80s with Prince Charles
00:56:42
and all that kind of thing there's
00:56:43
there's almost the profession got burned
00:56:46
recently and it doesn't want to get
00:56:48
burned again maybe
00:58:25
yeah
01:00:33
yeah I mean it's interesting you see I
01:00:35
think you're right that always be people
01:00:37
who enjoy just annoying let you say the
01:00:40
Puritans or the critics and you see the
01:00:42
house for Essex and child Holland the
01:00:44
Grace and Perea strikes me as a
01:00:46
prominent recent example of that of
01:00:48
going so completely the opposite way and
01:00:51
so outrageous just for the sake of it
01:00:54
effectively
01:03:40
yeah with that perhaps a difference
01:03:44
between so early modernism and late late
01:03:46
modernism overlook of contemporary
01:03:47
modernism in the context is now becoming
01:03:50
more important that people are making
01:03:51
reference even if they're perpetuating
01:03:53
the same yeah
01:05:50
yeah we mentioned that in your book
01:05:53
don't you mean you talk about the sort
01:05:54
of how most things that get built our
01:05:57
pretty average or not very good yeah
01:06:00
which is which would make sense less you
01:06:02
assume a normal distribution of
01:06:04
architectural ability say then most
01:06:06
things are going to be average but how
01:06:09
do we so the the what's relevant to most
01:06:12
people is that's or bulk of average
01:06:15
design like and yes you're right you and
01:06:17
I and the architect profession sees a
01:06:19
lot of media coverage of all the high
01:06:21
profile buildings they're really good
01:06:22
top quality ones but how do we bring up
01:06:25
the general level of quality of
01:06:27
everything else of all the ones that are
01:06:28
less good or average how does that
01:06:32
develop
01:11:21
[Music]
01:11:23
if you should you say the atoms have
01:11:27
been suggested that non architects might
01:11:29
understand architect's idea is better if
01:11:31
they heard the story behind them and
01:11:33
understood the kind of world the
01:11:34
designers were trying to create in
01:11:36
literary terms rather than through an
01:11:38
exhibition of drawings and sophisticated
01:11:40
animations
01:11:51
well do you think technology has a role
01:11:53
plan that with the rise of VR and 3d and
01:11:56
that kind of thing mm-hmm but do we need
01:12:00
to do we need to sort of give people out
01:12:02
more access to that kind of thing
01:13:50
yeah well it's interesting that there
01:13:53
you focus on that particularly British
01:13:55
idea of an idea of conservation and of
01:13:58
architectural history and one of the
01:14:00
things that the Housing Minister said
01:14:02
recently that struck me as interesting
01:14:03
was he wants to wants architects to
01:14:05
create the conservation areas of the
01:14:07
future and I sort of think well can you
01:14:10
think of any developments that might
01:14:12
meet that like say our catering came in
01:14:15
or something will that in 100 years time
01:14:16
will there be someone scanning that and
01:14:19
putting a two-star listing on it or
01:14:21
anything like that and what is it that
01:14:22
will make a conservation area of the
01:14:24
future
01:17:43
yeah I think that's an interesting point
01:17:46
and I mean I should think about the same
01:17:48
thing with the old Behrman library and
01:17:51
that they have that perhaps the more
01:17:54
outrageous the building is the more
01:17:56
people know about it and the more
01:17:58
conversation there is but then you get
01:17:59
this little polarization between people
01:18:01
who really love it despite how it looks
01:18:03
or maybe they particularly like the way
01:18:05
that it does look and then everyone else
01:18:07
who really hates it but still likes it
01:18:09
as a community asset
01:18:19
I think that's I mean we're talking now
01:18:51
about the again the more prominent
01:18:53
landmark kind of buildings but on a more
01:18:55
sort of local level like I think what
01:18:58
the Housing Minister means is sort of
01:18:59
the the conservation areas of nice
01:19:02
villages and or like nice Georgian town
01:19:05
scapes or something like the Kensington
01:19:07
or Chelsea or Cotswolds Village or
01:19:09
somewhere that people has think has a
01:19:11
general architectural value that is
01:19:13
worth preserving I'm retaining the
01:19:16
quality or and how do you get that on a
01:19:18
on a more urban level you know and the
01:19:21
whole way rather than as an individual
01:19:22
building that maybe it does have a look
01:19:24
into that
01:20:42
yeah I think hang on to again one of
01:20:46
your quotes about leading into style
01:20:48
again you talk you say whole divisions
01:20:52
of architectural style have never been
01:20:54
through a process of intelligent
01:20:55
criticism or debate the awkward high
01:20:57
Victorian provincial classical and the
01:20:59
cheap mid twentieth century almost Judah
01:21:01
are firmly in that category it is not
01:21:04
surprising therefore that the results
01:21:05
are not very good indeed the buildings
01:21:07
are clumsy incompetent and competently
01:21:09
derivative and badly judged and do you
01:21:11
think in terms of again that's what the
01:21:14
need for a theoretical or critical
01:21:16
debate about architecture is that true
01:21:19
of current architecture that because
01:21:21
we're not maybe not having that
01:21:22
conversation
01:21:23
[Music]
01:23:22
the thing that appeals does appeal to
01:23:24
the British some sense of history or
01:23:26
almost an idealizing of the medieval and
01:23:28
this kind of thing yeah
01:25:20
well it's it's sort of the especially
01:25:23
the contemporary iterations the closest
01:25:25
thing I can really think up to a pattern
01:25:26
book in the old sense of where you have
01:25:28
a set layout or a set set of details and
01:25:31
kind of things and any any vaguely
01:25:33
competent contractor I couldn't put it
01:25:34
together exactly yeah
01:27:32
yeah that's incredible don't let them
01:27:50
hear you say that yeah but how do we
01:28:10
translate or first of all should we
01:28:12
translate that kind of that sense of the
01:28:15
not sense of the bucolic but a more of a
01:28:19
connection to the land if you want to
01:28:20
put it simply how can you or should you
01:28:23
translate in that into a more urban
01:28:25
context in mass housing schemes these
01:28:27
days and and where's the value that it
01:28:30
can be complete it can be extracted and
01:28:32
put into contemporary housing schemes
01:28:35
and where should we sort of move on from
01:28:37
that
01:29:41
yeah well I think yeah that's true I
01:29:59
think there's perhaps an idea that
01:30:01
certainly in this in the new commission
01:30:04
that the government's launched that if
01:30:05
you make people really like the
01:30:07
buildings that are proposed that they
01:30:09
are beautiful then they'll be sort of
01:30:13
magically gets sale free planning and
01:30:16
then the suddenly will be able to throw
01:30:17
three hundred thousand but maybe that's
01:30:18
a fact but I'm struggling to see how
01:30:21
much that has a factor in how much it is
01:30:23
just a very minor part of the equation
01:31:09
yeah well it's one of the points that
01:31:13
Paul Finch made at one of the events the
01:31:15
other day about this was that the
01:31:17
collapse in local authority building has
01:31:20
been the from his point of view was the
01:31:22
predominant factor and the collapse of
01:31:24
house building generally and and that
01:31:27
sort of got me thinking what's the
01:31:29
appropriate role of the state either at
01:31:32
a national level or at a local authority
01:31:33
level in terms of what gets built and
01:31:35
what it looks like
01:33:03
well it's it's if yeah I find it strange
01:33:08
that it sort of in any other market say
01:33:10
you you have high quality products and
01:33:12
low quality products and people choose
01:33:14
them based on their preferences and on
01:33:15
the quality and that just doesn't seem
01:33:17
to exist in housing that there's no
01:33:18
there's no premium for a high quality
01:33:21
house it's like it's all entirely based
01:33:23
on location in size and demand
01:33:25
effectively and there's none there for
01:33:28
you
01:35:03
[Music]
01:35:19
yeah I think the the the idea the the
01:35:24
design build contracts for example and
01:35:27
the need for value engineering is
01:35:29
degrading the quality of architecture I
01:35:30
think there's general agreement on that
01:35:32
and why if I can take it sort of back
01:35:34
100 200 years why when you had
01:35:38
entrepreneurs building large Victorian
01:35:41
or Georgian estates out in the across
01:35:43
the fields of expanding London what was
01:35:46
it that made them make the buildings the
01:35:48
level of quality they are and not even
01:35:50
cheaper and
01:37:57
well I think that there's this I suspect
01:38:00
general agreement that the building
01:38:02
regulations are overall a good thing and
01:38:04
maybe there are this sort of a maximum
01:38:07
set of some maximum limit of complexity
01:38:09
that maybe you need to settle them for
01:38:10
practical reasons but I'm some more
01:38:12
interested in what level should there be
01:38:14
a design check or design quality
01:38:17
standard set should that be within the
01:38:19
building regulations or should it be a
01:38:21
planning level done by local authorities
01:38:24
or dictated by local authorities or
01:38:25
should it be advised to local
01:38:28
authorities by said local design boards
01:38:30
at what point and to what degree should
01:38:33
the the state of a local authority have
01:38:35
an input into what is designed what it
01:38:38
looks like what it's sort of style it is
01:38:40
what what the design quality is judged
01:38:43
against
01:40:02
yeah it is it possible to put a
01:40:35
sufficient degree of design good design
01:40:39
guidelines into sort of almost
01:40:41
regulations or to light a level for
01:40:44
design design guides like the London
01:40:46
design guides that bureaucrats or local
01:40:49
authorities can understand and implement
01:40:51
rather than having
01:41:27
but what do you think do you think the
01:41:30
sort of the the legislative or
01:41:32
regulatory level is the appropriate
01:41:34
level for that to happen though because
01:41:35
obviously my instinctive reaction to a
01:41:38
document or a set of sort of bureaucrats
01:41:41
saying you have to design us this way is
01:41:43
who are you to tell me how I have to
01:41:44
design things yeah but so should it
01:41:48
happen
01:42:39
well they will is yeah well is there is
01:42:45
it the answer therefore perhaps more
01:42:47
within architectural education itself
01:42:49
that if you should have changed the
01:42:51
philosophy of architectural education to
01:42:53
make to make architects not want to go
01:42:56
out and be the big egotistical person
01:42:58
putting a concrete block in the middle
01:43:00
of nowhere that that's actually a more
01:43:02
and a more sustainable I guess way of of
01:43:07
changing the problem of fixing the
01:43:09
problem
01:44:41
[Music]
01:44:52
where's the horror come from why is
01:44:54
there such a revulsion even the mention
01:44:56
of possibility that you might learn
01:44:58
something from history
01:46:08
was that maybe where the answer lies in
01:46:11
making the RBA guidelines so I'm curious
01:46:17
about this about the general the general
01:46:19
skepticism that people will have towards
01:46:22
the RBA it's look
01:46:43
yeah I've been struck as well like
01:46:46
reading some of the slightly older older
01:46:48
books on theory doing part three I've
01:46:52
been struck by the the lack of clock of
01:46:54
works as in almost any existence at all
01:46:57
anymore in any projects maybe on the
01:46:59
largest ones but well that's because
01:47:41
it's a program about stories isn't it's
01:47:43
about people it's designed for the
01:47:45
viewer who's dreaming about building
01:47:47
their own house and stuff okay
01:47:59
ya know well the other thing that struck
01:48:05
me about Grand Designs is that it's it's
01:48:07
the primary gateway by which most people
01:48:10
in the country engage with architecture
01:48:12
probably because it's what channel 4 is
01:48:14
most popular I think most popular
01:48:16
program what certainly one of its most
01:48:17
popular programs and therefore what it
01:48:19
the way that it's presented affects the
01:48:22
way people perceive architecture and
01:48:23
there's almost this first of all this
01:48:25
binary set of all architecture is for
01:48:28
rich people building houses in the
01:48:29
countryside and having a child while
01:48:31
doing it and going over budget and
01:48:32
coming through in the end
01:48:34
yeah but it's very an obviously plays
01:48:37
into the story in that sense but it's
01:48:39
very there's no real criticism about the
01:48:43
actual architecture itself like I was
01:48:44
thinking I was I was missing I mean I I
01:49:12
think about programs like by Jonathan
01:49:13
Meade's for example and that kind of
01:49:15
level of deep criticism of architecture
01:49:18
is it is very rare but I think even the
01:49:20
fact that that existed at the time was
01:49:22
something and now nothing like that
01:49:24
exists really
01:49:43
[Music]
01:50:06
yeah well that's probably true that it
01:50:09
isn't interesting or important to the
01:50:10
kinds of people who want to watch the
01:50:12
kind of program that Grand Designs is
01:50:13
but then but then I remember the culture
01:50:16
show and BBC two used to do segments
01:50:18
about architecture like about particular
01:50:21
buildings or again but Brea has that has
01:50:53
to has there ever been a proper public
01:50:54
conversation about architecture that
01:50:56
wasn't was this was it a prominent yeah
01:51:02
but I wonder when the Gothic Revival was
01:51:05
starting up was there a prominent public
01:51:07
conversation about about it and about it
01:51:10
going on
01:51:55
now yeah I keep an eye on the spectator
01:51:58
list because you're like music and
01:51:59
cinema on what's gonna take an
01:52:00
architecture is never there anymore
01:52:02
instance doesn't exist but why is that
01:52:20
wise why's it become like that what's
01:52:23
what happened yeah well it seems strange
01:52:42
to me because architecture is the one
01:52:44
art if you want to call it that then you
01:52:46
can't avoid no one can avoid it at all
01:52:48
like you can't choose you can choose to
01:52:50
go and see a film you can choose to go
01:52:51
see a play you can't choose to not see a
01:52:53
building when you're walking past it so
01:52:55
it's I mean mayor's to do the timing or
01:52:58
the nature of it or the fact that it's
01:52:59
difficult to define but it's does seem
01:53:02
very strange to me that there isn't that
01:53:03
conversation
01:53:12
mmm
01:53:13
boxers need to be noisier generally in
01:53:16
public perhaps yes right
01:53:22
well what cool is a day in that case
01:53:24
thank you very much Jen for joining us
01:53:25
and this conversation will continue I'm
01:53:28
sure thank you
01:53:41
you