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my name is Matt Kennard head of
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Investigations at Declassified UK on May
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23rd 2023 I interviewed Professor Nome
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chumsky the most important public
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intellectual in the world with a view
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that he could write a forward to my new
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book The racket a rogue reporter vs the
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American Empire we covered a whole range
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of themes to do with the book but also
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his work going back many many decades
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unfortunately a few weeks after the
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interview he fell very sick but his
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words are extremely important and speak
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to many themes and many issues which are
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exercised in the global population right
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now so they need to be heard so here it
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is I hope you enjoy it hi gnome thanks
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for joining me today thank you today
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we're going to be mostly talking about
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my book The racket aoga reporter vs the
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American Empire which was mostly
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reported while I was at the financial
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times and has reporting from all over
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the world from Haiti to Tunisia to
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Bolivia to Turkey um all of countries
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and all themes that you've written about
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for many
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decades firstly I wanted to ask you um
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you've said previously that Financial
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Times is the only major international
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newspaper that tells the truth why do
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you think that is well the financial
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times is a mainly a business
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press uh which means
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that rather like the Wall Street
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Journal does quite good reporting
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editorial pages are another matter
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though at the financial times they're I
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would say
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generally more serious than the
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norm
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so it's generally true I found over the
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years that the business press tends to
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provide less doctrinal
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more uh
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accurate reporting of a fairs that have
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any relation to the business world and I
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think that's
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understandable the business Community
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basically runs the world they have to
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understand U they can't be too diluted
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about uh events of the world and forces
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at work and so on but I should say that
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in the
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Ft some of the commentators are quite a
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quite a
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the financial times sent me to Haiti the
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year after the earthquake to cover the
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so-called reconstruction there the US
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had near complete control over the
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country can you describe briefly the uh
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us role in Haiti over recent
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history well we can
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start I mean the whole history is so
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disgraceful and shameful it's painful to
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talk about it since 1804
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when Haiti made the mistake of uh
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becoming the first free country of free
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men in the hemisphere and overthrowing
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slavery the world the soall Civilized
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world was had Tantrums about it tried
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hard to destroy it the US refused even
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to recognize Haiti till 1862
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recognized Haiti and Liberia
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as places where you could send freed
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slaves then comes an awful history which
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I won't
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recount by the
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19 uh
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80s 90s the US was still strongly
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supporting the
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dictatorships vicious brutal
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dictatorships there was an election in
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first free election in the country in
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1989 everyone assumed that it would be
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won by the us back candidate a world
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Bank official from the elite nobody was
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paying attention to the organizing that
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was going on in the slums and the hills
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which was pretty
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remarkable and they managed
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to
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win with a overwhelming majority
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they managed to elect Jean
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pauled populist priest with quite a
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strong record of courageous opposition
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to the
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dictatorship well the States was of
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course
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infuriated uh not going to tolerate
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this he had seven months in
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office and was
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achieving quite remarkable results he
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was even impr even the international
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financial institutions World Bank IMF
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were quite impressed with the
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overthrowing of corruption the positive
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actions and so on well he was overthrown
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in a
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coup
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uh tedly backed by the United States not
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so secretly after seven months they
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instituted A Reign of extreme
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torture and oppression I actually
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visited in those years it was I've been
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in a lot of pretty awful
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places in around the world but I've
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never seen such fear and misery as right
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shortly after the cidras who take over
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people were simply they wouldn't even
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talk to him the most they'd say is there
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are voices is everywhere I their their
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eyes everywhere I can't say anything and
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the poverty was
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Indescribable well that lasted through
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the Clinton years finally in me the
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there was a very interesting the Clinton
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Administration finally agreed to allow
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ared to return s the Marines restored
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him but on condition
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on that he accept very harsh economic
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programs which doomed the country to
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further disaster he had to let in with
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no
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restrictions
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you us AGR bus produced
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rice and from Clinton's home state
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mostly
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incidentally uh Haitian farmers are
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quite efficient but they can't kill
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compete with highly subsidized us Agri
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business so that was going to virtually
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Wipe
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Out the basis for peasant Society but it
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was worse than that I happened at that
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time to be
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following the AP direct news through
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some system that had been worked out
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briefly you watch AP news it's quite
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interesting you're getting direct moment
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Moment by moment reporting without any
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filtering just what the reporter seeing
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but every day on the AP News there's one
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story
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selected featured say for it there's a
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break they say for editors this is the
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top story for the day well the day that
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the Marines were going to land with a
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lot of hoopla about how wonderful it is
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we're liberating Haiti the top story
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that day
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was that the treasury Department had
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been permitting Texico oil company to
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send oil to the Hun now that's very
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important there were almost no
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restrictions on the military Hunter Rich
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could go to Miami and Shop buy whatever
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they wanted no problems there was one
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thing they couldn't get oil and the CIA
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was testifying to Congress that all oil
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shipments had been
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cut just walking around PTO prance you
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could see that that's not true but you
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could see the mevs family the rich
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family building
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oil facilities so obviously it was
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coming in well it turned out that
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secretly the Clinton Administration was
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was providing oil to the hunter the one
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thing they couldn't get
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U I was writing an article about it but
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I barely even mentioned this I know my
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article wouldn't come out for six weeks
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I thought by then it would be a big
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story well nothing it simply wasn't
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reported uh had to be the story is US
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liberating Haiti not us destroyed Haiti
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by supporting the military
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Hunter I was able to leak this material
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to my friend Alex
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Coburn who was writing I think for the
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nation at that time and he did do a
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story about it but that's the only thing
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that appeared this is particularly
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interesting to me because of a childhood
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experience in
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the uh around 19 late 30s early 40s I
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was pretty closely following the Spanish
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Civil
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War uh the official position of the
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United States and other liberal
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democracies was
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neutrality wouldn't participate that's a
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gift to the AIS and to Franco of course
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because Germany and Italy were arming
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them anding and for the liberal
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democracies to say neutrality is to say
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okay we'll let them be
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destroyed there was one thing that
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Germany and Italy could Supply
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oil the in the leftwing press that I was
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reading at the time they reported that
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the treasure Department had allowed the
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Texico oil company to break its
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contracts with the Republic and to ship
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oil to
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Franco the government of course denied
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this later it turned out that they were
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they conceded quietly that it was true
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same Oil Company
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then history replayed in
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a unbelievably ugly way well then come
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the following
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years I won't go through the details it
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was impossible for Haiti to reconstruct
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under the harsh conditions that Clinton
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imposed Clinton in fact later apologized
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for them finally there was another
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election our St was elected
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again US Canada and
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France basically invaded ha kidnapped
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him sent him off to the Central African
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Republic uh shut him up uh restored the
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government
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to brutal thugs his party lavalas man
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party wasn't even allow to participate
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well that's the way it continues until
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now by now the country is such a hideous
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wreck
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it's hard to know if it can even be
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reconstructed maybe it's
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best would be to have China invest in it
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that's not a joke
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incidentally uh it's it's it's a history
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of centuries of vicious murderous
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torture and
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violence mainly not for secret reasons
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black men overthrew
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slavery became a free country of black
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men not women uh that was just
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intolerable especially to the slave
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Society next door France is and even
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worse France imp which
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had Haiti had been a French Colony the
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richest colony in the French Empire
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large part of France's wealth derives
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from
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they imposed a severe Indemnity on Haiti
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to punish them for daring to overthrow
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uh
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slavery Haiti had no choice had to pay
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under this conditions of
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Imperial
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attack it wasn't until I don't I think
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the 1940s that Haiti actually managed to
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pay off the France ared when he was
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president politely requested the French
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to uh consider remunerating Haiti for
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this immense burden that had strangled
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the country after horrible French
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colonialism and slavery French France
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did establish a commission to look into
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it headed by RIS
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de leftist li de they decided that
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France had no obligation
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I mean all of this it gets so
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unspeakable you can't you can't even say
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what can't even talk about it everywhere
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you look it's beyond
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description the postc world war economic
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and political settlement was said by
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many to have had an idealistic thread
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originally that was later subverted do
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you agree with this there was an
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idealistic thread in the 40s it shows up
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most
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strikingly in the
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1948 Universal Declaration of Human
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Rights was actually initiated by the
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United States Elanor Roosevelt was the
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leading figure pushing it but it had
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very broad
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participation uh direct participation
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through in many parts of the world so it
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was a joint Declaration of me all the
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pretty much the whole world this could
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be brought together and it's a pretty
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forthcoming document especially if you
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look at the
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socioeconomic Rights Article
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25 I mean it calls for things that we
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ought to take for granted but that don't
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exist every person should have the right
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to a decent job to Health Care uh
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to whatever makes life feasible there is
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special provision for for women for
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mothers after birth must be have they
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must be cared for uh their children must
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be cared for U well that was an idea
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that was still the effect of the New
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Deal Spirit which had some effects but
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overall there was almost nothing
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idealistic starting in they heard the
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end of the war in the late late 40 44 or
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45 uh there was a wave of radical
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democracy that was spreading over the
00:16:06
world the
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Depression was over maybe the war was
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coming to an end Russia was defeating
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the
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Nazis Japanese imperialism had been
00:16:18
turned back there was a a lot of hope
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that maybe we can move to a new world
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which will be really just and honorable
00:16:30
the US wasn't having that when the the
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US troops first entered Italy that's
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where they entered the continent first
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in 1944 us and British
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troops Italy had been pretty much
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liberated by the resistance the
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partisans they had begun to establish a
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u worker based worker on economy
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especially in Northern Italy
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the US dism and Britain dismantled it
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restored the old
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regime including the the king who had
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supported the Nazis Victor monel
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imposed
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the what's his name it's Scapes me the
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bolia the field Marshall who had been
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responsible for the Ethiopian Invasion
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he was put in fascist collab liberators
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restored the old order was
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restored same in Greece there was an
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uprising in Greece British weren't
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strong enough to control it Americans
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moved
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in maybe 150,000 people or so were
00:17:46
killed finally Stalin wasn't supporting
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the gorillas he was living up to the
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Ulta agreement which put this in the
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British American Zone and they were
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decimated and Greece was restored to
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a quasi fascist order that's uh pretty
00:18:08
much the same happened in Western
00:18:11
Europe the old order was
00:18:14
reconstituted plenty of Nazi
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Collaborators U some
00:18:20
interesting same thing was happening in
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Japan
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that's
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um that's in 19
00:18:29
45 February
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1945 the US was basically taking over
00:18:37
World governance from Britain Britain
00:18:39
had been the former Global hen and the
00:18:43
US was pushing the mide and taking over
00:18:47
first place to be concerned with was
00:18:49
Latin America that's our territory so
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the in February 45 the United States
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called a hemisphere conference in Latin
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America where it imposed an economic
00:19:05
Charter for the
00:19:07
Americas which was opposed to economic
00:19:11
nationalism in all its forms there's a
00:19:14
background the state department was
00:19:17
deeply concerned with what they called
00:19:20
the I'm virtually quoting now the
00:19:23
philosophy of the New
00:19:25
Nationalism which calls for an equitable
00:19:28
distribution of resources for the
00:19:32
population and insists that the first
00:19:35
beneficiaries of a country's resources
00:19:39
should be the people of that
00:19:41
country none of that the first
00:19:44
beneficiaries are foreign
00:19:47
investors that was the economic Charter
00:19:50
for the Americas so Brazil was allowed
00:19:54
to produce steel but lowlevel steel that
00:19:57
didn't compete with with the high
00:20:00
quality us steel and so on that's the
00:20:03
back that's
00:20:04
45 the Britain Woods institutions in U
00:20:09
44 right before that had were kind of a
00:20:13
mixture they did establish a system in
00:20:17
which the US would be able to basically
00:20:22
have free economic penetration
00:20:26
and essentially
00:20:29
substantial political control over most
00:20:32
of the world but on the other hand they
00:20:34
did establish a an order economic order
00:20:39
which did Lay the basis for uh 20 25
00:20:44
years of quite substantial growth in
00:20:49
France it's called the con or is the 30
00:20:54
glorious years in the United States
00:20:56
economists call it the golden age of the
00:20:59
American economy fastest growth rate
00:21:03
egalitarian growth rate uh New Deal
00:21:06
Provisions were still in force there was
00:21:10
a business offensive already building up
00:21:13
to try to break it down but the business
00:21:16
offensive didn't really succeed until
00:21:21
the late 70s and the onset of the
00:21:24
neoliberal period during the which just
00:21:27
totally revers at all was
00:21:30
basically bitter class war you know go
00:21:34
into the details
00:21:36
but by International standards which are
00:21:41
not very elevated the Britain would
00:21:44
system was
00:21:47
moderately decent but the things like I
00:21:51
just talk about the ud Universal
00:21:53
declaration again through the subsequent
00:21:58
period
00:22:00
it was at least honored in
00:22:04
words by the time you get
00:22:06
to neoliberal years then I pretend so
00:22:11
Jean
00:22:12
Kirkpatrick Reagan's un Ambassador
00:22:16
dismissed the universal declaration as
00:22:19
what she called a letter to Santa Claus
00:22:22
she was talking about the socioeconomic
00:22:24
Provisions that's just a letter to Santa
00:22:26
Claus nobody can pay attention to this
00:22:29
nonsense the um human rights director
00:22:33
for the Reagan and Bush Administration
00:22:36
Paula do briansky said these things are
00:22:40
a myth we have to destroy the myth that
00:22:44
people have socio and economic rights
00:22:47
none of this Universal declaration
00:22:50
business um moris Abram who was the
00:22:54
delegate to the UN Commission on human
00:22:56
rights vetoed he was the Soul veto of
00:23:00
the UN resolution on right to
00:23:02
development basically article
00:23:05
25 said this is
00:23:08
pernicious destructive it's a dangerous
00:23:11
perversion we have to stop all of this
00:23:14
so by the time you get to neoliberalism
00:23:16
which was basically class war even in a
00:23:20
pretense of verbal pretense of honoring
00:23:24
these Provisions was gone U there and
00:23:27
that's part of the history of the
00:23:29
post-war period during the early years
00:23:33
there was
00:23:34
some remnant of the Social Democratic
00:23:39
new deal policies the aspirations for
00:23:43
more Justice and freedom but they were
00:23:46
under sharp attack which finally
00:23:48
succeeded and you get into the
00:23:50
neoliberal
00:23:52
period the Brittain Woods institutions
00:23:55
were pretty much undermined by Nixon
00:23:58
when he took the country off the gold
00:24:01
standard my book The racket looks at
00:24:03
many of the myths that the US uses to
00:24:05
project its power around the world one
00:24:07
of the main ones is that it practices
00:24:10
and promotes free trade is this true of
00:24:13
course not take a look at the World
00:24:15
Trade
00:24:16
Organization it's called that's the
00:24:20
centerpiece of what's called free
00:24:23
trade it's one of the most highly
00:24:26
protectionist trade agreements in
00:24:28
history what are called intellectual
00:24:31
property rights are exorbitant patent
00:24:35
restrictions of a Kind which had never
00:24:38
existed before if they had existed in
00:24:41
the 19th century the United States would
00:24:43
still be exporting fur and and
00:24:47
agricultural products no country could
00:24:50
possibly develop under those
00:24:53
restrictions which gave enormous patent
00:24:56
rights uh long 20year rights not just
00:25:00
process patents but even
00:25:03
product not just product but also
00:25:05
process patents meaning others can't
00:25:08
figure out better ways to make the same
00:25:11
uh
00:25:12
same product that's why pharmaceutical
00:25:16
prices
00:25:17
are
00:25:18
astronomical Way Beyond the cost of
00:25:21
production even though a lot of the
00:25:23
production is based on government uh
00:25:26
government research and government
00:25:29
funded and government develop
00:25:32
research in fact they're just investor
00:25:35
rights agreements and could go through
00:25:37
the details
00:25:38
there and in fact it's kind of
00:25:40
interesting to see how the US treats the
00:25:43
World Trade
00:25:45
Organization so um as you know the world
00:25:49
is strongly opposed to us sanctions
00:25:54
almost all of them the during the
00:25:56
Clinton years the sanctions on Cuba
00:26:00
which are utterly outrageous and the
00:26:03
whole world literally the whole world is
00:26:06
opposed to them you look at the votes at
00:26:08
the United Nations it's 184 to2 against
00:26:12
the sanctions us and Israel uh World
00:26:18
1996 Clinton sharply stepped up the
00:26:21
sanctions the Helms buron act Europe
00:26:24
which is very much opposed to the
00:26:26
sanctions brought the question to the
00:26:29
World Trade
00:26:30
Organization ask the World Trade
00:26:32
Organization remember that us sanctions
00:26:35
are third party sanctions everybody has
00:26:38
to obey them or else you're punished
00:26:41
severely so everybody hates them but
00:26:44
everyone obeys them uh Europe brought it
00:26:47
to the World Trade Organization to ask
00:26:50
for a judgment on the legality of the uh
00:26:55
sanctions Clinton administration was
00:26:57
outraged
00:26:59
they condemned the World Trade
00:27:00
Organization pulled out of the
00:27:03
negotiations steuart Eisen who was
00:27:05
Secretary of
00:27:07
Commerce wrote that uh the World Trade
00:27:10
Organization has no B interfering in
00:27:14
internal US policy which has been been
00:27:17
designed for 30 years to overthrow the
00:27:20
government of Cuba and they have no
00:27:23
right to interfere with this that's how
00:27:26
the US of course the case was drop us
00:27:29
pulls out it's drop so the treats the
00:27:32
World Trade Organization so it's not a
00:27:35
free that's the main I mean if you look
00:27:37
at NAFTA it's about the same you know
00:27:40
similar things the racket has a chapter
00:27:42
on the key role played by the US in
00:27:44
turkey's war on the Kurds and Israel's
00:27:47
war on the Palestinians can you describe
00:27:49
what the US role is in both those
00:27:51
conflicts yes I've been in both
00:27:54
places I visited jarak here shortly
00:27:59
after
00:28:00
the worst just at the period when the
00:28:02
worst Terror of the 1990s under the
00:28:05
Clinton Administration was subsiding so
00:28:09
you could at least travel around a
00:28:11
little the 90s I mean turkey the curds
00:28:15
of a awful history of Oppression I won't
00:28:18
run through the whole story the largest
00:28:21
kurd part of the Kurdish population in
00:28:24
Turkey where they've been bitterly
00:28:26
oppressed the oppression picked up
00:28:29
strongly in the
00:28:30
1990s Clinton years uh Clinton provided
00:28:34
the arms for it as the terror mounted
00:28:39
against first of all the the terror
00:28:42
against the Kurdish population was very
00:28:44
serious tens of thousands of people were
00:28:47
killed thousands of villages were in
00:28:50
towns were just wiped out hundreds of
00:28:53
thousands of people were driven into the
00:28:56
slums and
00:28:58
miserable living conditions in Istanbul
00:29:01
maybe you did I visited the places where
00:29:04
they live it's in
00:29:06
describable uh as the atrocities mounted
00:29:10
us Aid mounted by
00:29:15
1997 998 when the unities peaked the
00:29:19
United States the Clinton Administration
00:29:22
was providing about 80% of the Aid
00:29:26
Clinton spent provided I think in one
00:29:28
year
00:29:29
1998 he provided more Aid to the Turkish
00:29:32
military than the entire Coast War Cold
00:29:36
War period combined up to the onset of
00:29:38
the
00:29:39
Insurgency press refused to report it
00:29:43
New York Times had a bureau in Anchor of
00:29:45
course check and see almost not a
00:29:51
word it was certainly possible to find
00:29:53
out no secret about it was real
00:29:57
murderous Terror
00:29:58
it declined a little in the early years
00:30:02
of the this Century then picked up again
00:30:06
in around 2005 when uh aan took over
00:30:11
began to increase the repression now
00:30:13
it's pretty bad again not like the 90s
00:30:17
but bad and now it's extending
00:30:20
to the Syrian areas where the Kurds had
00:30:24
established
00:30:25
a pretty free Society in the midst of
00:30:29
the Calamity of the Syrian War but
00:30:31
turkey is attacking it us is looking the
00:30:35
other way uh as for Palestine I've been
00:30:40
there pretty
00:30:42
often I don't I think it I mean Israel's
00:30:47
for 50 years has been carrying out
00:30:50
a illegal brutal
00:30:54
occupation totally in violation of
00:30:58
international law and Security Council
00:31:01
resolutions uh the US has been providing
00:31:03
the arms uh if you read the isra the
00:31:07
Israeli press or it's the main newspaper
00:31:11
every day there's another crime in the
00:31:13
West Bank Gaza of course which I've also
00:31:17
visited is just a miserable prison and a
00:31:21
punching bag for his roof and they feel
00:31:24
like it they do what they call mowing
00:31:26
the lawn just let's bomb and kill a lot
00:31:29
of civilians and hit the hospitals and
00:31:31
so on and so
00:31:33
forth about there's a million children
00:31:36
two million population about a million
00:31:39
children in Gaza they can't get portable
00:31:42
water the even that power station
00:31:46
destroyed sewage station was destroyed
00:31:49
fishermen can't aren't allowed to go out
00:31:52
more than a couple of kilometers which
00:31:54
means they can't fish because of the
00:31:56
pollution it's just a horror story but
00:31:59
the West Bank too it's just daily crimes
00:32:03
what they call the settlers Hilltop
00:32:06
youth the IDF the armies watching them
00:32:10
Palestinians try to protect themselves
00:32:13
the Palestinians
00:32:16
or it's
00:32:18
um about the only place that resembles
00:32:21
it right now I think is Kashmir also
00:32:24
occupied by India uh illegally imposed
00:32:30
and sending Indian set lers and so on
00:32:33
very much on the Israeli model
00:32:36
so could Israel get away with it without
00:32:39
the
00:32:40
US not at all in the
00:32:44
1970s Israel made a fateful
00:32:47
decision it had to choose between
00:32:50
expansion and
00:32:53
security it's in the early' 70s the Arab
00:32:59
states uh Egypt Syria Jordan the three
00:33:03
neighboring Arab states were looking for
00:33:06
a way in the
00:33:08
conf there were resolutions introduced
00:33:12
in the security Council supported by
00:33:15
these three confrontation states which
00:33:19
called for
00:33:21
establishment of two states Israel
00:33:24
Palestine on the internationally
00:33:27
recognized border maybe with some
00:33:31
modifications with I'm now quoting it
00:33:34
guarantees for the right of each state
00:33:37
to exist in peace and security within
00:33:41
secure and recognized
00:33:44
borders that would
00:33:46
have given some kind of settlement not
00:33:49
beautiful but better than anything else
00:33:52
you can think of Israel was
00:33:55
infuriated refused to attend the
00:33:58
sessions Yak Robin who un representative
00:34:02
bitterly condemned the United Nations
00:34:05
for daring to move in this direction us
00:34:09
vetoed the
00:34:10
resolution uh well goes on from there
00:34:14
won't go to the details Israel basically
00:34:17
decided at this point it's going to
00:34:20
expand even at the expense of security
00:34:24
Now that has a
00:34:25
corollary relying on the United United
00:34:28
States you can't do that unless the most
00:34:31
powerful state in the world is going to
00:34:33
support you and that's what's happened
00:34:36
ever since the US has been backing it
00:34:39
all the way provides the uh Military
00:34:44
Support economic support U diplomatic
00:34:49
support huge flow of vetos in the
00:34:53
security Council votes at the general
00:34:57
assembly
00:34:58
you know 150 to2 that sort of thing
00:35:03
that when Trump came along he
00:35:06
just abandon any pretense Israel had
00:35:11
annexed the Golan Heights in violation
00:35:14
of Security Council orders and next
00:35:17
what's called Jerusalem which is in fact
00:35:20
five times as big as Jerusalem ever was
00:35:23
including Palestinian Villages also
00:35:26
against security Council orders Trump
00:35:29
simply said fine take them it's yours uh
00:35:34
Trump decided to punish the
00:35:36
Palestinians by removing the small
00:35:39
amount of Aid that the US was giving
00:35:41
humanitarian Aid because the
00:35:44
Palestinians weren't grateful enough to
00:35:46
him for selling him totally down the
00:35:48
river that's the Trump Administration
00:35:52
Biden's essentially P continued pretty
00:35:55
much with it soften some of the edges
00:35:58
uh that's uh that's been the what Israel
00:36:02
is doing is perfectly plain it's been
00:36:04
obvious for 50 years constructing a kind
00:36:08
of Greater
00:36:09
Israel which uh keeps Gaza in its
00:36:14
current state it uh um takes everything
00:36:18
that's of value in the West Bank and
00:36:21
integrates them into Israel so take over
00:36:24
the Jordan Valley pick out the
00:36:26
population on one or another pretext
00:36:29
it's about a third of the Arab
00:36:31
land imprisons the rest uh vastly
00:36:36
expanded Jerusalem taking in Palestinian
00:36:40
Villages towns to the east like
00:36:45
M each of them basically bisects the
00:36:50
livable part of what remains um
00:36:54
integrate all of this in subsidized
00:36:56
housing and nice suburbs in malim you
00:37:00
can live in a subsidized Villa there and
00:37:04
get to your job and Tel aiv and K
00:37:07
Jerusalem on a super highway in which
00:37:10
you never even see a Palestinian because
00:37:13
they're not allow uh the Palestinian
00:37:17
population concentrations are excluded
00:37:20
Israel doesn't want them it wants to
00:37:23
maintain a large Jewish majority in what
00:37:26
it can call a
00:37:28
Democratic state so Nablus is encircled
00:37:32
but it's not incorporated into what
00:37:35
Israel is taking over that's basically
00:37:38
greater Israel Palestinians who remain
00:37:41
in the territories that Israel is
00:37:44
occupying and taking over are cut off
00:37:47
into about 160 small enclaves surrounded
00:37:53
by Israeli soldiers which prevent people
00:37:58
even from going to their Olive Groves or
00:38:02
pasture their flock occasionally they'll
00:38:04
let them through but basically
00:38:06
imprisoned constant attacks by what are
00:38:10
called Hilltop youth right-wing mostly
00:38:13
religious settlers many from the United
00:38:16
States U that's life in the West Bank G
00:38:20
is almost unlivable in fact the
00:38:23
international
00:38:24
institutions conclude that Gaza will
00:38:27
literally will be unlivable in a few
00:38:29
years Golan Heights everybody's
00:38:32
forgotten about Syrian Goan
00:38:34
Heights and of course it couldn't be
00:38:36
done without strong us support there's a
00:38:39
whole section in the racket on us
00:38:42
poverty and inequality at home do you
00:38:46
think there's a link between the Empire
00:38:47
abroad and the war on the poor at home
00:38:50
in
00:38:51
America I don't think there's a direct
00:38:54
connection with imperialism abroad
00:38:58
uh these are basically separate matters
00:39:01
the neoliberal programs were designed as
00:39:05
I said they're basically class War I
00:39:08
mean officially if you look up the
00:39:10
definition it talks about markets and
00:39:13
small government and so on that's all
00:39:16
nonsense we've talked about markets U
00:39:19
same internal to the United States when
00:39:22
Reagan it started to build up during the
00:39:25
late Carter years but when took over and
00:39:28
Thatcher in England it just shot through
00:39:30
the roof and spread to the rest of the
00:39:33
world u u as far as free markets are
00:39:38
concerned Reagan opened the door to
00:39:40
financial speculation the financial
00:39:43
Industries grew enormously make a lot of
00:39:46
profit of course there's crashes they
00:39:49
rean the first the first couple of years
00:39:52
of the Reagan Administration I think
00:39:55
1984 they came the largest bank bail out
00:39:59
in American history rean bailed out the
00:40:02
Continental Illinois Bank uh bran
00:40:05
Administration ended with the Savings
00:40:07
and Loan crash had to bail out the
00:40:11
perpetrators then one crash after
00:40:13
another each time the friendly taxpayer
00:40:17
moves in and bails them out and it's not
00:40:20
just bailouts the it's
00:40:24
understood there's a phrase too big to
00:40:27
fail which means no matter what you do
00:40:31
no matter what crimes you commit
00:40:33
taxpayer bill you out that means they
00:40:35
get cheap credit High credit ratings
00:40:39
make risky Investments a lot of money
00:40:42
safe because you'll be bailed down
00:40:44
that's the market uh internally
00:40:47
externally we've already discussed uh
00:40:51
what about small government government's
00:40:54
grown grew on but it's grown to support
00:40:58
the rich and the corporate sector they
00:41:02
need protection and support it was a ren
00:41:06
Corporation Quai governmental
00:41:09
Corporation did a study of transfer of
00:41:12
wealth from the lower 90% of the
00:41:16
population working people middle class
00:41:19
transfer of wealth from them to the top
00:41:22
1% during the neoliberal years about 50
00:41:28
trillion that's pretty effective class
00:41:30
war you take a look at the Reagan
00:41:34
Administration prly doubled the debt
00:41:36
huge increase in the federal debt
00:41:39
because of tax cuts for the rich and
00:41:42
enormous military spending Trump also
00:41:46
blew a huge hole in the deficit with his
00:41:50
one legislative achievement 2017 tax cut
00:41:54
for Sharp tax cut for the rich and the
00:41:57
corporate sector the Republicans don't
00:41:59
care when they blow up the deficit and
00:42:03
the it's when the Democrats do it that
00:42:06
you get what you're seeing right now but
00:42:09
uh
00:42:11
that's real wages have pretty much
00:42:15
stagnated male real wages for
00:42:19
nonsupervisory workers or about what
00:42:22
they were in
00:42:24
1979 of course productivity's increased
00:42:27
wealth is increased but going into
00:42:29
different Pockets actually the Biden
00:42:32
years have seen a Improvement in the
00:42:36
situation of working
00:42:38
people contrary to what you read in the
00:42:41
headlines for working people it's been a
00:42:44
comparatively good
00:42:47
economy even for the lower paid who
00:42:50
doing better doesn't make up for the 40
00:42:53
45 years of destruction of Labor but um
00:42:58
slight Improvement uh Republicans are
00:43:01
going to try to break any any anything
00:43:05
that contributes to that they're opposed
00:43:07
to strongly they've stopped being a
00:43:10
parliamentary party a long time ago
00:43:12
they're just in abject service to wealth
00:43:16
and corporate power
00:43:18
and
00:43:21
but the um I think the
00:43:25
Imperial uh atrocities and the internal
00:43:29
domestic repression are not really
00:43:33
closely connected they're just parallel
00:43:35
developments there's something that lies
00:43:38
behind them of course making sure that
00:43:41
the world and the domestic economy are
00:43:45
operating to the benefit
00:43:47
of the very rich and the corporate
00:43:50
sector that's a
00:43:52
commonality I went to Honduras a key
00:43:55
part of the US so-called War on Drugs
00:43:57
for the book can you describe what the
00:43:59
reality of the US War on Drugs is well
00:44:05
Honduras has been
00:44:08
a it was
00:44:13
the almost paradigmatic banana state
00:44:18
owned by the United Fruit Company
00:44:21
working people miserably repressed huge
00:44:25
profits for the company
00:44:28
small Rich Elite called sometimes the 14
00:44:33
families very rich they cooperate with
00:44:36
foreign imperialist powers and enrich
00:44:39
themselves that
00:44:41
standard uh during the
00:44:44
1980s Honduras was turned into
00:44:47
a an armed Camp basically it was the
00:44:50
base for the US attack against
00:44:54
Nicaragua uh which in incidentally the
00:44:57
US was condemned for at the world court
00:45:00
and told them to get lost just like it
00:45:03
tells the World Trade Organization to
00:45:05
get lost
00:45:08
uh it continued that way until a couple
00:45:11
of years ago 2008 when a moderately
00:45:16
reformist president mils Alia started to
00:45:20
begin to reverse the process he was
00:45:24
overthrown in a military coup kicked out
00:45:27
of the country uh C was harshly
00:45:31
condemned by almost the entire world one
00:45:35
exception the Obama
00:45:38
Administration Obama and Clinton refused
00:45:40
to call it a military
00:45:42
coup because if they had by law they
00:45:46
would have had to stop military aid to
00:45:49
the hunter so therefore they said it's
00:45:51
not a military coup it's just an
00:45:53
internal um change of some kind the
00:45:57
military Hunter ranana totally
00:46:00
fraudulent election also condemned by
00:46:04
Latin America and the world except for
00:46:07
Obama and Clinton Hillary Clinton who
00:46:10
said it's a wonderful step towards
00:46:12
democracy and so on I mean all of this
00:46:15
is so familiar in the history of Latin
00:46:18
America hesitate even to report it the
00:46:22
hunda was introduced be introduced a
00:46:25
regime of torture Terror Honduras
00:46:29
became maybe the homicide capital of the
00:46:32
world people started fleeing from
00:46:35
hondura Honduras the Caravans the famous
00:46:38
Caravans were based in
00:46:41
Honduras us of course kicked him out got
00:46:45
Mexico to kick him out drive him back
00:46:47
home uh the drug war is part of it we
00:46:51
might ask what the drug war is the drug
00:46:54
war is in the United States demand is in
00:46:59
the United States the arms too that the
00:47:04
military uses say in Mexico to attack
00:47:08
the
00:47:09
cartels um or that the cartels
00:47:12
themselves use the arms that the cartel
00:47:15
uses to kill tens of thousands of people
00:47:19
they come from where I live in Arizona I
00:47:22
mean I don't know which end of a gun to
00:47:24
hold but I could walk into a gun store
00:47:28
pick up a rifle um hand it over to the
00:47:31
local representative of the cartel he go
00:47:34
down to Mexico with it and start killing
00:47:36
people it's not everything but it's a
00:47:39
lot of it uh the Colombia which is maybe
00:47:43
Mexico is Horst or Colombia has been one
00:47:48
of the worst cases
00:47:51
paramilitaries connected the government
00:47:54
uh carry out major atrocities is all
00:47:58
closely connected to the drug
00:48:00
cartels I've I visited Southern Columbia
00:48:05
peasant
00:48:06
areas um you go to a remote Village pass
00:48:10
a place on the side of the road where
00:48:13
there's white
00:48:15
crosses people killed by the
00:48:17
paramilitaries when they were trying to
00:48:20
drive in a in a bus you know uh the
00:48:24
there's the program of what's called
00:48:26
fumigate
00:48:27
us fumigation essentially chemical
00:48:30
warfare it's supposed to destroy opium
00:48:34
destroys everything U doesn't
00:48:37
discriminate uh you see kids with
00:48:42
horrible boils and many die and so on
00:48:46
it's
00:48:47
a and there's a background to this if
00:48:51
you go back to the 1970s before the
00:48:54
neoliberal period
00:48:57
take a look at incarceration rates in
00:48:59
the United
00:49:00
States they were fairly high but within
00:49:04
the spectrum of Western
00:49:06
societies now they're five to 10 times
00:49:09
as high a lot of that is the effect of
00:49:12
the drug war why has there been more
00:49:15
crime and why is it happening the drug
00:49:19
war took off with
00:49:21
Nixon but Nixon by contemporary
00:49:24
standards was quite liberal and human
00:49:27
believe it or not so if you look at
00:49:30
Nixon's drug war it had a substantial
00:49:34
component for prevention and
00:49:37
treatment now there have been studies
00:49:40
ran Corporation others of just cost
00:49:44
benefit analysis of modes of dealing
00:49:47
with drugs by far the most effective and
00:49:51
least costly is prevention and treatment
00:49:56
next most expensive is police action
00:50:00
more expensive less less
00:50:04
effective more expensive than that and
00:50:07
still less effective is border
00:50:10
control worst of all most expensive
00:50:14
least effective is what are called outof
00:50:17
country
00:50:18
operations like supporting
00:50:20
paramilitaries in Colombia and chemical
00:50:24
warfare you look at policies
00:50:27
virtually the opposite of the
00:50:30
recommendations by now almost nothing
00:50:33
for prevention and treatment which is
00:50:35
the only effective way and it's a way to
00:50:38
control the population here and it's
00:50:41
devastating for Latin America uh but the
00:50:45
drug war is centered here let's see now
00:50:50
you find right-wing Congressman saying
00:50:52
we have to invade Mexico to stop fentel
00:50:56
production
00:50:57
ction how about treating the source of
00:51:00
the problem here not invading Mexico not
00:51:04
sending them guns not not fumigating
00:51:09
their Colombian
00:51:12
territory it's it's just another major
00:51:16
crime I also went to Egypt and Tunisia
00:51:19
soon after the revolutions there in 2011
00:51:22
do you find Hope in what happened
00:51:25
there there was hope in Tunisia and
00:51:29
Egypt the Arab Spring
00:51:32
socalled pretty much started in
00:51:35
Tunisia Egypt's the most important
00:51:38
country of course and it picked up in
00:51:40
Egypt and for the first couple of months
00:51:43
there was real hope that something would
00:51:47
change they could overthrow the
00:51:50
dictatorships the dictator of Tunisia
00:51:53
had to flee the country uh the United
00:51:56
States supported the Egyptian dictator
00:51:59
Mubarak about as long as it was possible
00:52:01
to do so some point the Army and the
00:52:04
business World turned against him so the
00:52:07
US did too Army took
00:52:10
over instituted the harshest murderous
00:52:14
dictatorship in Egypt's
00:52:16
history
00:52:18
U Trump's said that Ali he described the
00:52:23
dictator as his favorite dictator strong
00:52:26
WR us support all the way um it's
00:52:31
U I'm I'm sorry to be so gloomy and
00:52:35
harsh but you want to ask those
00:52:37
questions I don't see any alternative
00:52:40
Tunisia
00:52:42
unfortunately it did have
00:52:45
a moderately Progressive democratic
00:52:48
government it's collapsing in this case
00:52:50
on internal grounds the elected leaders
00:52:54
turn themselves into a
00:52:57
autocrat is breaking down Democratic
00:52:59
structures restoring a kind of
00:53:03
dictatorship freedom I notice I have
00:53:07
another talk in five minutes I'm gonna
00:53:10
have to switch over okay thanks so much
00:53:13
for joining me Professor n chumsky
