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[Music]
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hey everyone back again today I want to
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talk about Leela Abu lagod's essay
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titled do Muslim women really need
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saving now before jumping into it
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obviously uh we can't ignore the fact
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that I'm presenting this
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with a backdrop of the Revolution
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currently going on in Iran and I'm gonna
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put some links to some organizations you
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can donate to which is really
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a good way to contribute and to help now
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with that being said
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part of what I want to do here is to
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problematize some of the narratives I've
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seen emerging in response to the
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Revolution going on in Iran mostly
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narratives espoused by Western feminists
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claiming that this is this has been a
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long time coming and women are finally
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starting to embrace Western attitudes
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and opposing Islamic Rule and Islamic
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dictatorship and control over women I'm
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going to problematize all of that but
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before jumping into it hi I'm David I
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try to explain philosophical Concepts
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now let's jump into this very important
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essay now this was written right after 9
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11 in 2002 I believe and it's important
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to acknowledge that while I'm talking
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about this essay and I'm going to be
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making reference to what is currently
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going on in Iran it's important to
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acknowledge that 20 years has passed
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it's the contexts are wildly different
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but there are some common threads that
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I'm going to point to so this text was
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written in 2002 presented in 2002 and it
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was
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abugulugode's effort to try to apply an
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anthropological approach to
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understanding cultural difference
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specifically she's looking at the way in
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which Western feminists
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very important political figures she
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looks at Laura Bush and we're going to
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talk about this as we go on
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how all of these Western feminists and
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these figures
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viewed the war on terror as being more
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than just a way to redeem the United
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States and the violence inflicted
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against the United States during 9 11
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but also they framed the war on terror
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as a way to liberate Muslim women from
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the oppression of Islam and from the
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oppression of Muslim men so to do this
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she reflects on well to begin she
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reflects on two events she reflects on a
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PBS interview she was
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invited to guest for to be to be a part
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of where they were there was this kind
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of Blitz of effort among large media
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companies following uh 911 and during
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the war on terror to interview Muslim
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women or women who were may have been
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Arabic who or who have roots or
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connections to the Arabic world
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to interview these women and to get
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their perspective on what was going on
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with women in these areas to which he
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says quite bluntly and she asked them
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straight out when they invited her she
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asked whether or not they were talking
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about women's issues in other parts of
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the world and in other during other
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conflicts so like in Ireland during the
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IRA or in Bosnia or in the
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israeli-palestinian conflict were
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questions about women's Liberation being
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raised there of course the answer is no
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which demands us to ask what is it about
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Muslim women that motivates
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our asking and our trying to understand
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the plight of Muslim women in those
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contexts that doesn't get as much
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attention in other parts of the world
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when we know very well and this is just
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Doctrine for any feminist in any kind of
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capacity patriarchy exists everywhere
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but why is there a focus of fascination
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with Muslim women now she reflects on
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this blitz of interviews that had
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occurred not with her but with other
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Muslim women as well and other women
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from that part of the world she suggests
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that there is there was just this
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really unbelievable fascination with
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Muslim people with Islam and with that
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part of the world in such a way as to
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occult or to hide the fact that there
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were other motivating factors to what
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was going on in Iran and in Afghanistan
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and in Iraq following 9 11. so by
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focusing on the cultural attitudes at
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that time to suggest that women were
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oppressed by Islamic culture and Islamic
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religion what that did was it
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effectively hid or occulted the fact
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that the United States among other
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quote unquote Western Nations had
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participated for decades in exploiting
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that part of the world in participating
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in establishing dictatorships in
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establishing various economic
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dependencies with that part of the world
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then of course we're going to have
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pretty sound effects on how that culture
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would develop in any sort of way
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but by focusing instead by transforming
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these
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historical issues and these historical
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events reducing them to just a question
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about women's oppression about the place
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of the veil or the burqa in these
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settings just essentially hid all of
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these other possible ways to understand
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what was going on in that part of the
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world at that time and we saw this play
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out as well in one of Laura Bush's
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addresses to the nation in November 2001
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I believe just just a few months after 9
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11 a couple months after 9 11 where she
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was suggesting that through military
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operations
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by the United States and their its
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allies they would effectively liberate
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women in Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq
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from Muslim oppression which is kind of
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ironic to suggest that you know through
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military operations of exploiting the
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land and killing some in the case of
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Iraq some 400 000 dead Iraqi civilians
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somehow this can be equated with the
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project of Liberation which is just it's
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mind-boggling but in any case this was
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the belief and they held this to be
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wholly true now of course in all of this
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there was very few if any efforts to
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help these women in any other ways there
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was almost a myopic View
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that in this focus on the veil as being
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a sign of women's oppression where if
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the veil was just
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Cast Away then suddenly oppression would
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cease to exist but of course as
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oppression works on many levels and it's
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not like the United States was offering
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women from Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran
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Asylum or offering them more education
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or offering them other ways that they
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might be able to empower themselves
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which is just you know obviously they
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weren't interested in doing these things
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which calls them to question the
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Integrity of their claim to wanting to
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liberate these women which is already in
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itself the very rhetoric of Liberation
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is problematic in that it implies that
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you are somebody who houses the
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potential to liberate somebody else and
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it demands that we ask to liberate from
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whom or from what and into whom into
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what to liberate someone is not to
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remove all possible social codes and
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forms of conduct it is to instead
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instantiate to establish another set of
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codes and rules for people to follow
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that the Liberator views themselves to
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be more just and in some cases of course
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willing to acknowledge that things are
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gonna they might even be better but but
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in this case
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looking at all of the historical
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circumstances it really does not seem
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like that is the case and really to much
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of their surprise that is these Western
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feminists after the so-called war on
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terror had concluded and the project was
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done and there's that you know there was
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that talk or that address given by
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George Bush on the big boat the name of
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which
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I don't want to look up but anyways the
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big boat where with the big banner
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that's a mission accomplished and women
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were still wearing burkas and head
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scarves and veils in that part of the
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world
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which is like wait a second if
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Liberation has occurred
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which it hasn't but if it has isn't it
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possible that women might still want to
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wear what they want to wear like what an
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what a radical idea what a radical turn
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of events that women might want to do
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what they might want to do and they
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might do those things and it's also
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important to problematize or to
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interrogate Nuance probably the best
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word our discussion of the burqa in in
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its entirety where it is not some
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homogeneous figure imposed onto women by
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uh the fact that in 19 1995 1996 1996
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the Taliban had really taken over in the
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case of Afghanistan really taken control
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the burqa wasn't just imposed on women
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in that way uh of course there are
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examples of women being forced to dress
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a certain way and obviously that's wrong
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but the history of the burqa is much
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more complicated where it emerged out of
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the Ashton region of Afghanistan and it
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was
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um it was a way by which to demonstrate
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affiliation between women's lives in the
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public sphere and their connection to
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home life
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where there's this quote that
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Abu lugard gives us that I think is
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quite it's quite powerful and really
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illustrating this this element of the
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burqa or this the purpose that the Burke
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has served in this context where she
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writes that such veiling signifies
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belonging to a particular community and
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participating in a moral way of life in
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which families are Paramount in the
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organization of communities which is
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just like okay I mean that sounds like a
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perfectly
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reasonable thing to believe and it's
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part of their culture and what is
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fundamentally wrong with that of course
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the answer is nothing but there's this
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strange obsession in the west with
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unveiling everything with with making
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everything apparent by stripping
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everything and making making everything
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quite obscene and making it quite
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apparent so it's no surprise then that
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women would still want to wear the burqa
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even if imagine if Islam cease to be a
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religion on Earth which obviously that
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wouldn't happen but if just one day for
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some reason we all forgot about it there
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are still the cultural roots of the
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burqa of the hijab Within These
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communities that won't just go away it
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also serves another pretty useful
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function in this context in the west to
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focus our attention on that part of the
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world and say that that is where Women's
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oppression occurs now I I've seen many
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tick tocks about this and people on Tick
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Tock explain this stuff
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a million times better than I ever could
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but there was one Tick Tock that I've
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seen I saw so long ago that I can't give
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credit to it because I can't I haven't
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been able to find it again but it was
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this person describing how
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the double standard that occurs in this
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discussion where people in the west say
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that women are oppressed in Islamic
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countries for wearing hijab or wearing a
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burqa and then this person looked at the
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way in which in the West on a beach
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women are expected to wear bathing tops
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whereas men are not or anatomically like
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the the difference there's not really a
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difference there especially with the
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fact that some CIS men and women chest
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sizes are going to be very similar yet
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there's this belief that women have to
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wear a bathing top whereas men do not
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now imagine if one day another country
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were to roll in with tanks and say that
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oh the women all you women are free you
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no longer need to wear bathing tops
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it seems totally absurd that women would
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just be like yes of course no more
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bathing tops in this context I'm sure
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many of them would still like to wear it
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it might make them feel safer it might
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make them feel like they aren't going to
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be objectified by the predatory men
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around them and this is just kind of a
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maybe bridging on a silly example to
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demonstrate this double standard the
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belief that women's oppression occurs
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over there and over here nothing bad is
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going on and we keep selling that idea
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we repeatedly say it to convince
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ourselves that the problem isn't here
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it's over there
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helps us sleep at night and it makes it
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so that we don't actually have to
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confront the issues that we constantly
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face and that we in my case as a man we
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perpetuate in this world in our setting
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and we see this going on right now in
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the case of Iran where people are
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co-opting what is a very powerful
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Revolution occurring in that part of the
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world to say that oh this is women
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trying to adopt Western values like
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thank goodness women are finally seeing
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the horrors of having to wear a certain
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type of clothing when that is absolutely
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not the point here the point in my mind
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is that the imposition of any kind of
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clothing is obviously going to be
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wrapped up in a historical context and
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it should be up to women to decide what
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they want to wear and it should really
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be that simple and it is still violent
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for people in the western context to
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mandate that women can't wear hijab or
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can't wear air of burka and that they
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have to dress a certain way how is that
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any different from
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people forcing women or punishing women
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with violence if they don't wear a hijab
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if they don't wear a certain kind of
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clothing and it's just important to
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really maintain and understand that
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double standard that's always that
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operation here that we've seen
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historically really
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have a lot of have quite a gravitas to
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it have a lot of cultural force not to
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mention of course that like in this
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context there doesn't seem to be any
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efforts to try to liberate nuns in in
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churches for having to wear head scarves
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it's always just Muslim women for some
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reason just a focus on that now to
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conclude abulu God isn't trying to say
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or advocate for kind of cultural
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relativism as though there's just
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differences and that's really that's it
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right there's no right and wrong which
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she suggests that anthropologists tend
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to do her point is that there are
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uh there are differences and there there
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is right and wrong it is wrong for
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people to impose onto other people what
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they have to wear it is wrong for the
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West to go into Afghanistan and commit
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the atrocities that it has from for for
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decades it is wrong for people in the
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west to suggest that women can't dress a
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certain way or to punish them if they
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dress a certain way moreover it is wrong
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to just implicitly associate feminism
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with the west and you know just women in
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the Muslim world as just being innately
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oppressed and the reason for that is
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that there are
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Muslim feminists there are feminists who
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imagine a world that is Islamic and that
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it is free the focus should not be on
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what women are wearing the focus should
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be on creating more just and Equitable
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world that respects differences doesn't
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try to impose one way of seeing the
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world on others and it really the same
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in any context if anyone in any context
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is forcing someone to dress a certain
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way or they'll be punished for it that
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is wrong it's something that we can
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agree with so we have to be making sure
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we have to make sure that our project is
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designed in such a way as to accommodate
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differences to welcome differences and
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respect them and yeah and that's
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essentially her essay
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I hope that I did it justice and that it
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was Illuminating if there's anything I
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got wrong I'd love to hear about it or
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anything I've admitted I'd love to hear
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about it you can check out some links in
00:17:07
the description if you want to
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contribute to some organizations working
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to help women in Iran right now
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which is ironic of course because the
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title of the the essay being do Muslim
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women really need saving but we can
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discern saving from helping them not
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trying to save women or trying to
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provide support uh when they need it and
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when they ask for it not imposing
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support onto them or imposing Liberation
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onto them and yeah
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if you like what I did like share
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subscribe and I'll catch you next time
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take care
