Maxine Beneba Clarke in conversation with Zuva Goverwa

00:46:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcsGW38R4VY

Ringkasan

TLDRIn this vibrant discussion at the Wheeler Center, author Maxine Beneba Clarke shares insights into her writing approach for her acclaimed memoir "The Hate Race." She discusses her organic and episodic writing style, emphasizing the creative freedom to follow inspiration rather than a rigid outline. Maxine explains her process of constructing memoirs through vivid, episodic memories, highlighting the importance of authenticity and storytelling in creative non-fiction. She also navigates the politics of being a Black writer in Australia, reflecting on both the burdens and privileges it entails and calling for authentic storytelling irrespective of race or background. Maxine further details her thorough and sometimes chaotic research methods, including filling memory gaps and verifying historical contexts to craft a rich narrative. She values the editorial process, seeing feedback as essential for enhancing her work's quality. During drafting "The Hate Race," Maxine recognized it needed to be a childhood memoir, focusing on her childhood and teenage experiences in Australia, amidst the nation's racial and social dynamics. Additionally, she highlights how reviewing and leaving work aside for a period helps refine and finalize her stories, ensuring their readiness for publication.

Takeaways

  • 🌏 Acknowledgment of traditional land custodians before the discussion.
  • 🖊️ Maxine's memoir "The Hate Race" uses vivid memories to narrate racial experiences.
  • 📚 Her writing process is organic, evolving naturally without strict structure.
  • 🧩 She fills gaps in memory through detailed research and fact-checking.
  • 🗨️ Interview discusses the challenges and political dynamics of being a Black writer.
  • 🎭 Childhood perspective is crucial in "The Hate Race," emphasizing authenticity.
  • 📖 The writing process is seen as existential, reflecting personal growth.
  • 📝 Editing and feedback are critical, improving narrative clarity and depth.
  • 👥 Discusses challenges of minority representation in literature.
  • 🕰️ Emphasizing taking breaks from work to return with fresh perspectives.
  • 📜 Maxine’s writing captures the essence of living in a pre-modern multicultural Australia.
  • ✍️ Memoir writing is distinguished by its need for authentic retelling of memories.

Garis waktu

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The video begins with an acknowledgment of the traditional custodians of the land, followed by an introduction of host Zuva Goverwa, who presents Maxine Beneba Clark, an acclaimed author known for works like 'The Hate Race.' Maxine shares her organic and often haphazard writing process, particularly for her memoir, which grew from episodic vignettes about race, family, and growing up.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Maxine reflects on the inspiration behind her writing, focusing on untold or timely stories and passionate issues. She emphasizes the value of bringing underrepresented narratives into the spotlight, using 'The Hate Race' as an example of detailing her experience as a black child in 1980s and 90s Australia.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    When asked about research, Maxine describes a process of filling memory gaps with logical deduction and fact-checking, sometimes leading to surprising discoveries about the reliability of memory. She employs traditional research methods and personal interviews to build accurate backdrops for her stories.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Maxine elaborates on the existential nature of memoir writing, piecing together life stories into coherent narratives. She describes the impact of revisiting childhood memories, which allowed her to notice developmental patterns and thematic correlations that contributed to her personal and professional growth.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Discussing her parents' migration history, Maxine relied on vivid childhood memories and limited adult knowledge due to storytelling gaps. Her approach blends these vivid memories with additional research about historical and cultural contexts, creating a uniquely personal folklore narrative.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Maxine distinguishes between memoir and autobiography, emphasizing creative nonfiction's flexibility. She focuses on character significance to narrative cohesion, often removing elements that do not contribute meaningfully to the story while crafting memorable vignettes true to her life experiences.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    She describes the drafting process, highlighting her lean writing style and iterative revisions. She edits heavily while writing, focusing on sensory details and narrative structure to enhance storytelling, often rewriting sections extensively before achieving the desired outcome.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Maxine explains her approach to editing, involving multiple drafts that incorporate narrative, copy, and character editing stages. She values external feedback from editors to ensure clarity and coherence, recognizing the necessity of an external perspective to refine her work.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:46:13

    Maxine touches on the challenges and politics of being a black writer, navigating expectations about racial narratives. She strives to tell diverse stories and questions how the predominantly white publishing industry shapes which stories are told, always prioritizing storytelling quality over politics.

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Video Tanya Jawab

  • Where does the interview take place?

    The interview takes place at the Wheeler Center.

  • Who is being interviewed in the video?

    Maxine Beneba Clarke, an acclaimed author, is being interviewed.

  • What is Maxine's writing style like?

    Maxine's writing process is organic and haphazard, often starting with vivid memories and writing episodic vignettes rather than planning everything out.

  • What themes does "The Hate Race" explore?

    The memoir explores themes of race, family, and growing up as a black child of migrants in Australia.

  • How does Maxine view the writing process for memoirs?

    She views writing memoirs as an existential process that involves piecing together vivid memories to form a cohesive narrative.

  • What challenge does Maxine discuss in relation to memory and research for her writing?

    She discusses filling in gaps in memory and ensuring accuracy by fact-checking and conducting traditional research.

  • What does Maxine say about the editing process?

    She enjoys the editing process, emphasizing the importance of external feedback to improve her work.

  • How does Maxine Clarke navigate being a black writer in Australia?

    She discusses the privilege and burden of writing about race and the politics involved, advocating for diverse storytelling.

  • What realization did Maxine have during the drafting process of "The Hate Race"?

    She realized that it should be a childhood memoir rather than covering her adult life too.

  • How does Maxine describe the feedback she receives?

    Although she often gets lean edits due to her concise style, she values feedback for improving her narrative and sometimes disagrees, fostering discussions for better outcomes.

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Gulir Otomatis:
  • 00:00:00
    (air wooshing)
  • 00:00:05
    - The Wheeler Center would like to acknowledge
  • 00:00:07
    the Wurundjeri Wurrung people of the Kulin nation
  • 00:00:10
    as the traditional custodians
  • 00:00:11
    of the land on which the center stands.
  • 00:00:14
    We'd like to pay our respects to all elders past, present,
  • 00:00:17
    and emerging, and to the elders of all nations,
  • 00:00:20
    which this broadcast may reach.
  • 00:00:22
    My name's Zuva Goverwa.
  • 00:00:23
    I'm a writer and the host of the series of conversations
  • 00:00:27
    for the Victorian Curriculum Assessment Authority.
  • 00:00:31
    Maxine Beneba Clark is the author of the acclaimed memoir,
  • 00:00:35
    "The Hate Race".
  • 00:00:36
    The Award-Winning short fiction collection, "Foreign Soil",
  • 00:00:39
    the poetry collections "Carrying the World",
  • 00:00:41
    and "How Decent Folk Behave"
  • 00:00:43
    and many other books for adults and children.
  • 00:00:46
    Her recently published poetry collection is,
  • 00:00:49
    "It's the Sound of the Thing:
  • 00:00:50
    100 new poems for young people."
  • 00:00:52
    She's currently poet and residence at Melbourne University.
  • 00:00:56
    Maxine's text "The Hate Race"
  • 00:00:58
    is a part of the writing about country framework
  • 00:01:00
    on the Victorian Curriculum Assessment Authorities English
  • 00:01:03
    and EAL list too.
  • 00:01:07
    So Maxine, it's so lovely to be joined by you today.
  • 00:01:10
    I just wanna know a little bit about your writing process.
  • 00:01:15
    - So my writing writing process is quite haphazard,
  • 00:01:19
    I find.
  • 00:01:21
    With "The Hate Race" because it's a memoir,
  • 00:01:23
    it was really quite a patch work process.
  • 00:01:26
    So I was kind of remembering different incidents
  • 00:01:30
    throughout my life and writing through those incidents
  • 00:01:34
    in kind of separate vignettes, as opposed to sitting down
  • 00:01:38
    and mapping out exactly how I wanted to write the text.
  • 00:01:43
    And I think when I had kind of 10 to 12 of those vignettes
  • 00:01:47
    was when I realized, okay, this is kind of,
  • 00:01:49
    this is going to be an episodic memoir
  • 00:01:52
    and I'm gonna keep working in these short incidents really
  • 00:01:56
    to do with race and family and growing up.
  • 00:02:00
    And I think with most of my work,
  • 00:02:02
    my process is quite organic like that.
  • 00:02:06
    I very rarely sit down to write a piece of work
  • 00:02:09
    with the entire direction of the work already mapped out
  • 00:02:13
    in terms of structure and in terms of content.
  • 00:02:16
    I like that kind of messy organic process of,
  • 00:02:19
    oh, I'll just write for a couple of hours
  • 00:02:21
    and see what comes out, see which direction it goes in.
  • 00:02:24
    - Yeah, I feel like creativity a lot of the time
  • 00:02:26
    does kind of follow that free flowing kind of structure
  • 00:02:29
    rather than, yeah, planning and mapping things out,
  • 00:02:32
    they kind of just come to you sometimes.
  • 00:02:34
    I'm really curious to know, obviously this was a memoir,
  • 00:02:37
    so it is about your life.
  • 00:02:39
    But just in general,
  • 00:02:40
    or even with reference to "The Hate Race,
  • 00:02:42
    what is it that inspires your writing,
  • 00:02:45
    and maybe like what galvanized you to write this memoir?
  • 00:02:48
    - For me, I think usually I don't put pen to paper
  • 00:02:53
    unless it's either a story that I think
  • 00:02:56
    there is a space for,
  • 00:02:57
    like maybe it hasn't been been told before,
  • 00:03:00
    or maybe a similar story's been told before,
  • 00:03:02
    but now is the time to retell that story in a different way
  • 00:03:07
    or it's a particular issue
  • 00:03:08
    that I feel really strongly about.
  • 00:03:10
    So I don't tend to, you know,
  • 00:03:12
    even when I'm writing a kid's picture book about fashion
  • 00:03:14
    or something like that, that's because I think,
  • 00:03:16
    oh, you know, fashion is one of the only autonomies
  • 00:03:19
    that kids have in terms of what they can choose.
  • 00:03:22
    You know, that idea of putting on something for the day.
  • 00:03:24
    And so I think even when my work is not overtly political,
  • 00:03:28
    there's always something behind it in terms
  • 00:03:31
    of I wanna put this message
  • 00:03:33
    or this energy out into the world.
  • 00:03:35
    And I think with "The Hate Race", it felt like me,
  • 00:03:39
    like to me like it was the right time for a memoir
  • 00:03:42
    about growing up the black child of migrants
  • 00:03:45
    in Australia in the eighties and nineties.
  • 00:03:48
    And I'd had a lot of people saying to me, oh,
  • 00:03:50
    where did you grow up, you know?
  • 00:03:51
    Well, where did you come from?
  • 00:03:54
    And I'd say, you know, was born in Sydney,
  • 00:03:56
    grew up in Sydney, and friends, you know,
  • 00:03:59
    even friends would say really?
  • 00:04:01
    You know, there were African diaspora people
  • 00:04:03
    in Australia in the seventies and eighties.
  • 00:04:06
    And I think it was through those conversations
  • 00:04:08
    and realizing that, okay, this is a story
  • 00:04:12
    that to me is quite boring,
  • 00:04:14
    it's just the story of my life growing up.
  • 00:04:17
    But there is a need to put it out there both in terms of
  • 00:04:21
    people who've had similar experiences seeing themselves
  • 00:04:24
    and in terms of people who haven't had similar experiences
  • 00:04:27
    actually kind of being brought into that world
  • 00:04:30
    of what that's like.
  • 00:04:32
    - Yeah, no, I really love that.
  • 00:04:34
    And yeah, I learned so much as well
  • 00:04:36
    just from reading your memoir,
  • 00:04:38
    so that was really interesting to look at.
  • 00:04:40
    - [Maxine] Thank you.
  • 00:04:41
    - So when it comes to developing your ideas
  • 00:04:45
    and coming up with something concrete to write,
  • 00:04:48
    how do you go about the research process?
  • 00:04:51
    - The research process again for me is quite messy.
  • 00:04:55
    So with something like a memoir,
  • 00:04:57
    of course you start with memory, you know, it's a memoir.
  • 00:05:00
    But of course there are gaps in our memories.
  • 00:05:03
    So things like, I might remember exactly
  • 00:05:07
    where I was standing when something happened, you know,
  • 00:05:09
    where I was standing in the classroom.
  • 00:05:12
    I might remember the kid that was sitting next to me
  • 00:05:14
    and their name.
  • 00:05:15
    I might remember what teacher it was,
  • 00:05:16
    but maybe I don't remember which classroom
  • 00:05:19
    in particular it was in,
  • 00:05:20
    maybe I don't remember whether it was summer or winter,
  • 00:05:23
    what the weather was like outside.
  • 00:05:25
    So part of the research process was filling in the gaps
  • 00:05:28
    in those memories.
  • 00:05:30
    You know, thinking, oh, well this happened
  • 00:05:31
    right at the start of grade one,
  • 00:05:33
    so it must have been summer,
  • 00:05:35
    so I'll make it summer.
  • 00:05:36
    Or, you know, let me go back to that year
  • 00:05:37
    and work out was it a really hot summer.
  • 00:05:40
    And so a lot of the research was filling in those gaps
  • 00:05:43
    in memory, and really interesting things can happen
  • 00:05:46
    with memory as well.
  • 00:05:47
    Like for example, I was convinced
  • 00:05:50
    that there was this particular scene in "The Hate Race",
  • 00:05:53
    I think it was when I was lying in bed waiting to unwrap
  • 00:05:56
    a Cabbage Patch doll on my birthday, you know,
  • 00:05:58
    hoping I'd get this present.
  • 00:05:59
    And I remember this particular John Farnham song
  • 00:06:01
    playing on the radio.
  • 00:06:03
    I can't even remember which one it was initially,
  • 00:06:06
    but I had this really vivid memory of this song playing.
  • 00:06:09
    And then when the me- when the book went to publication,
  • 00:06:13
    the editor said that song didn't come out
  • 00:06:15
    until the next year.
  • 00:06:17
    And I said, no, I remember, like, I vividly remember
  • 00:06:20
    and that is such,
  • 00:06:22
    for some reason that memory is so powerful,
  • 00:06:25
    but there's some kind of slippage there.
  • 00:06:26
    You know, maybe it happened a year later,
  • 00:06:28
    maybe I'm actually remembering lying in bed
  • 00:06:32
    when I'm waiting for something else.
  • 00:06:33
    You know, a couple of years later
  • 00:06:35
    or something like that and hearing this song.
  • 00:06:36
    And so some of the research is in fact
  • 00:06:39
    that fact checking process and that going, okay,
  • 00:06:42
    well maybe we can use a John Farnham song
  • 00:06:45
    that did just come out at that particular time.
  • 00:06:49
    And then there's the more, I suppose,
  • 00:06:51
    traditional research in terms of going through archives,
  • 00:06:54
    finding out what the area I lived in looked like, you know,
  • 00:06:59
    a hundred years ago, 50 years ago.
  • 00:07:03
    In the seventies and eighties,
  • 00:07:04
    'cause I don't remember necessarily, you know,
  • 00:07:06
    what the local shops looked like back then.
  • 00:07:08
    So things like photographs, historical documents,
  • 00:07:11
    maps and things like that.
  • 00:07:13
    And then there's also talking to people who were there
  • 00:07:16
    at the time or who might have grown up
  • 00:07:18
    around a similar time saying, not even necessarily,
  • 00:07:22
    what do you remember about Kellyville,
  • 00:07:24
    the suburb I grew up in.
  • 00:07:25
    But what's your memory of 1988, you know, of Australia,
  • 00:07:30
    you know, celebrating this bicentenary
  • 00:07:32
    and what was your understanding of that as a kid?
  • 00:07:35
    So I suppose traditional research,
  • 00:07:39
    talking to people,
  • 00:07:41
    and also doing things like going back
  • 00:07:43
    to my old primary school and walking around, you know,
  • 00:07:47
    like slipping in the gate and having walking around
  • 00:07:49
    and thinking, oh,
  • 00:07:50
    I forgot that the toilet block was over there
  • 00:07:51
    and this was over there and this has moved.
  • 00:07:54
    So actually physically going to those places too.
  • 00:07:58
    - Yeah.
  • 00:07:59
    Do you feel like you almost started to know yourself better
  • 00:08:03
    by kind of going back and looking at your history
  • 00:08:06
    and revisiting it from a new perspective?
  • 00:08:08
    - Yeah, definitely.
  • 00:08:09
    I mean I think it's a very existential process,
  • 00:08:12
    the process of writing a memoir.
  • 00:08:14
    And often, you know, we have these stories,
  • 00:08:17
    the story of our lives,
  • 00:08:19
    but it's not until you sit down and put events together
  • 00:08:22
    end to end that sometimes you can see developments
  • 00:08:27
    of things that you maybe knew were there
  • 00:08:32
    but you didn't, you know, you weren't quite concrete.
  • 00:08:37
    You know, in "The Hate Race" for example,
  • 00:08:40
    there were a couple of moments in my school life
  • 00:08:42
    where I kind of tried to speak
  • 00:08:44
    and was stopped from speaking whether it's kind of,
  • 00:08:47
    you're the student of the week so you have to tell the class
  • 00:08:49
    about yourself,
  • 00:08:50
    but you're not able to get it out
  • 00:08:51
    because the teacher keeps cutting you off
  • 00:08:53
    or thinking that you're lying or whatever.
  • 00:08:54
    And then joining the debating team in high school
  • 00:08:58
    and realizing, oh wow, there's a correlation between,
  • 00:09:01
    you know, all these instances of trying to talk
  • 00:09:04
    and then ending up actually, you know,
  • 00:09:06
    becoming a public speaker
  • 00:09:08
    and then looking at, getting into spoken word
  • 00:09:10
    as an emerging writer and seeing that chronology
  • 00:09:13
    on the page that I knew was there,
  • 00:09:16
    but probably hadn't really thought through
  • 00:09:19
    until I saw it put end to end
  • 00:09:21
    while in the process of writing the memoir.
  • 00:09:24
    - That's really interesting.
  • 00:09:25
    I feel like, yeah, whenever you write anything down,
  • 00:09:28
    whether it be like a memoir or journaling,
  • 00:09:30
    or anything like that, looking back on it,
  • 00:09:32
    you can kind of start to see these themes that emerge
  • 00:09:35
    that you may have partially been cognizant of at the time,
  • 00:09:38
    but they really start to become very vivid
  • 00:09:40
    as you look back on it.
  • 00:09:42
    So yeah, that's very interesting.
  • 00:09:43
    To kind of cap off this section about research,
  • 00:09:46
    I was also really curious to know,
  • 00:09:48
    obviously I was specifically looking at kind of chapter two
  • 00:09:51
    of your story where you're talking about your parents
  • 00:09:53
    and how they migrated to Australia.
  • 00:09:56
    And being able to tell your family's history
  • 00:10:00
    so vividly obviously requires you to know it
  • 00:10:03
    even though you weren't there.
  • 00:10:04
    So what was the research like for that?
  • 00:10:07
    Was telling your history and your story just something
  • 00:10:09
    that was always integrated into your childhood
  • 00:10:12
    or were there a lot of very intentional conversations
  • 00:10:14
    of sitting down and kind of talking with your parents
  • 00:10:17
    about their life?
  • 00:10:19
    - You know that's a great question because I didn't,
  • 00:10:23
    with "The Hate Race" or with any book
  • 00:10:26
    you have what's called the uncorrected proof,
  • 00:10:28
    which is when you finish the book,
  • 00:10:30
    and it's not in stores yet,
  • 00:10:32
    but you have a bound copy that looks like a book,
  • 00:10:34
    but maybe just has a plain white cover
  • 00:10:36
    or something like that.
  • 00:10:37
    And I decided with the memoir,
  • 00:10:39
    because the thing with interviewing people as well
  • 00:10:41
    is you start to fill the gaps in your memory
  • 00:10:45
    with other people's memories
  • 00:10:47
    and other people's memories can also be unreliable as well.
  • 00:10:51
    And so I had decided I'm not going to share this book
  • 00:10:55
    with my family until the uncorrected proof,
  • 00:10:58
    so there's still time to make changes.
  • 00:11:01
    So what I'm going to do is essentially put what I know
  • 00:11:06
    into the book,
  • 00:11:07
    and what I remember, which isn't necessarily,
  • 00:11:10
    if you're being told a story about your parents migrating
  • 00:11:13
    from Australia, from England to Australia
  • 00:11:16
    and you are eight, the things you remember about that story
  • 00:11:20
    are not necessarily things I'd remember as an adult.
  • 00:11:22
    And as an adult I would ask a lot more questions,
  • 00:11:26
    but the things that I remembered were the things
  • 00:11:28
    that were most vivid.
  • 00:11:29
    Like I remember my parents telling me about this hotel
  • 00:11:32
    they first stayed in called the Man Friday Hotel.
  • 00:11:34
    You know, and how it had these little black footprints
  • 00:11:37
    across all the stationary
  • 00:11:39
    and how they didn't know whether it was deliberate,
  • 00:11:41
    you know, whether someone at the university,
  • 00:11:43
    you know, did they think they were being hospitable
  • 00:11:45
    or was it just pure serendipity?
  • 00:11:48
    And that was really vivid memory for me.
  • 00:11:51
    And I remembered, you know,
  • 00:11:53
    my dad saying to me that he'd,
  • 00:11:55
    you know, been at this a local celebration.
  • 00:11:59
    I met this local kid and the kid's father has said,
  • 00:12:02
    you know, you need to kiss this man's feet
  • 00:12:04
    because he's the, you know, the first person
  • 00:12:06
    in our community who's got a PhD.
  • 00:12:08
    And as a kid that memory is like what!?
  • 00:12:12
    Dad what are you talking about?
  • 00:12:14
    And so I decided to include those flashpoints
  • 00:12:18
    that were really vivid in my memory.
  • 00:12:21
    And then anything else was based on research.
  • 00:12:24
    So that community that I depict,
  • 00:12:27
    the Africa Caribbean community in London
  • 00:12:30
    or in Tottenham is kind of from, you know,
  • 00:12:33
    researching what was around at the time,
  • 00:12:35
    what was the neighborhood like,
  • 00:12:36
    and from stories of hearing my grandparents
  • 00:12:40
    talk about the neighborhood
  • 00:12:41
    or traveling there myself when I was younger.
  • 00:12:45
    And so, yeah,
  • 00:12:46
    I think that is partly what gives that story of my parents
  • 00:12:52
    migrating that kind of folklore lens
  • 00:12:58
    is like those kind of like iconic moments.
  • 00:13:01
    You know, the moment you see the cheese with the racist name
  • 00:13:04
    in the supermarket, the moment you see this hotel
  • 00:13:07
    and you think, oh my goodness is this where we're staying?
  • 00:13:10
    Telling it with those flashpoint kind of becomes
  • 00:13:13
    part of the storytelling style.
  • 00:13:16
    - Yeah. There's so much detail in it all as well.
  • 00:13:21
    And I'm curious to know like things as small as like
  • 00:13:24
    the color of your dad's shirt or other things like that,
  • 00:13:27
    would you say were those like, you know,
  • 00:13:29
    from pictures or things like that?
  • 00:13:31
    Or did you kind of create an image in your mind
  • 00:13:33
    that may not have been accurate but represented enough
  • 00:13:37
    of kind of the vignette you would, sorry.
  • 00:13:40
    Were you creating a picture that was accurate
  • 00:13:42
    or kind of just creating a vignette
  • 00:13:44
    that was representative enough of your truth?
  • 00:13:47
    - There was always, the starting point was always truth.
  • 00:13:50
    So for example, you know,
  • 00:13:52
    if I'm kind of lounging around with my mom in the weekend,
  • 00:13:55
    you know, in chapter three or whatever,
  • 00:13:57
    and I know that around 1984
  • 00:14:01
    she had a camel colored tracksuit,
  • 00:14:05
    you know, I'm going to put that tracksuit on her.
  • 00:14:07
    So I tried to do very little,
  • 00:14:10
    I did almost no kind of inventing from scratch.
  • 00:14:14
    You know, I'm going to put these earrings on her
  • 00:14:15
    because it'll be cool for her to wear these earrings.
  • 00:14:17
    It was always either from photo albums or from my memory,
  • 00:14:22
    and again those things that I think,
  • 00:14:24
    oh what did we used to eat in the late eighties for dinner?
  • 00:14:27
    You know, those kinds of things.
  • 00:14:30
    So trying to create as authentic a world as possible
  • 00:14:34
    in terms of these are things I know existed
  • 00:14:38
    and I know happened,
  • 00:14:40
    even if that's not the exact outfit, you know,
  • 00:14:43
    my mother might have been wearing on the day.
  • 00:14:45
    - Yeah, so kind of piecing it all together,
  • 00:14:47
    kind of going back to what you said of like having
  • 00:14:50
    all of these episodic flashes
  • 00:14:51
    and being able to create a cohesive narrative out of it.
  • 00:14:54
    - Yeah, and I think that's what memoir
  • 00:14:56
    as opposed to autobiography, you know,
  • 00:14:59
    memoir or creative nonfiction allows you to essentially
  • 00:15:05
    tell the story in a way that's,
  • 00:15:07
    I think I put a lot more work into creating the characters
  • 00:15:10
    and the characterization,
  • 00:15:12
    than I would if I was writing
  • 00:15:13
    a traditional autobiography, you know?
  • 00:15:15
    So that idea of, okay,
  • 00:15:19
    this is what this particular child in my classroom was like,
  • 00:15:26
    there might be 50 things I remember about them,
  • 00:15:29
    but what are the 10 things that I can say about them
  • 00:15:33
    that are going to contribute to this scene
  • 00:15:36
    or tell this story instead of just kind of putting in that,
  • 00:15:39
    you know, they had an Astro Boy brooch
  • 00:15:42
    that they used to wear or you know,
  • 00:15:43
    kind of superfluous things.
  • 00:15:45
    So kind of I guess choosing which truths
  • 00:15:51
    you are actually, you need in order to tell the story.
  • 00:15:56
    So, you know, sometimes I'll get emails from, you know,
  • 00:15:59
    people saying,
  • 00:16:00
    I sat next to you in math class for three years
  • 00:16:02
    and you never mention me in your math. (laughing)
  • 00:16:06
    And having to say, well, I didn't need you
  • 00:16:08
    to tell the story, be happy. (laughing)
  • 00:16:11
    But you know, there was never a stage where I needed you
  • 00:16:13
    in order to actually tell the story of something.
  • 00:16:17
    So yeah, that idea of what story am I telling
  • 00:16:19
    and therefore what, who and what do I need to include?
  • 00:16:23
    - That's really interesting
  • 00:16:24
    'cause I feel like when you are writing fiction,
  • 00:16:27
    there's kind of a need to decide what you create,
  • 00:16:30
    what you invent, what you put in,
  • 00:16:32
    versus what you're saying here I guess is like,
  • 00:16:34
    what is it that you can take out
  • 00:16:36
    or that you don't need to kind of create
  • 00:16:38
    a very specific image or idea, or convey a certain theme.
  • 00:16:43
    - Yeah, and there's definitely that,
  • 00:16:44
    there's that saying kill your darlings,
  • 00:16:46
    you know, in writing.
  • 00:16:47
    And I think, yeah, there were chapters
  • 00:16:49
    where I would read through them after I'd written them even,
  • 00:16:51
    and I'd think this character has no purpose.
  • 00:16:54
    It sounds terrible when you're talking about
  • 00:16:56
    an actual physical person.
  • 00:16:58
    But I think this character,
  • 00:16:59
    if I took them out of this chapter,
  • 00:17:02
    the chapter would unfold, you know,
  • 00:17:04
    asking myself what are they doing?
  • 00:17:06
    Why are they there?
  • 00:17:07
    Are they there to be a bystander or to, you know,
  • 00:17:09
    to contribute to the narrative, yeah.
  • 00:17:14
    - So how do you go about transferring those ideas
  • 00:17:18
    and all your research into something
  • 00:17:21
    that's on the page and that you can read back?
  • 00:17:25
    - Oh, that's the killer question, isn't it, you know?
  • 00:17:28
    Essentially how do you be a writer?
  • 00:17:32
    I think for me it was starting with the easiest parts first.
  • 00:17:36
    So something I can remember really vividly,
  • 00:17:40
    I'll start with that.
  • 00:17:40
    You know, if there's a day that I'm going to write about
  • 00:17:43
    and I remember a particular part of that day
  • 00:17:45
    more than the rest,
  • 00:17:46
    I'll start with that and build outwards.
  • 00:17:50
    I think using those storytelling techniques that you use,
  • 00:17:56
    you know, in any fiction.
  • 00:17:58
    So thinking about that the memoirs written in vignettes,
  • 00:18:01
    so it's kind of, every chapter is almost a new unfolding
  • 00:18:06
    situation to do through the lens of race,
  • 00:18:08
    but at the same time you have to have this overall
  • 00:18:12
    narrative arc and narrative structure
  • 00:18:14
    to carry through to a book.
  • 00:18:17
    And so I worked on the vignettes
  • 00:18:20
    or each scene or chapter separately
  • 00:18:23
    and then threaded them together at the end.
  • 00:18:25
    And what I found was,
  • 00:18:28
    firstly I had a lot more material
  • 00:18:29
    than was included in the book.
  • 00:18:31
    When you're asking yourself what are the encounters
  • 00:18:34
    to do with race that I remember throughout the first 18
  • 00:18:37
    or 16 years of my life.
  • 00:18:39
    And so my media thought was a lot of these are doubling up.
  • 00:18:43
    You know, I don't want to kind of have
  • 00:18:46
    five incidents of playground bullying
  • 00:18:48
    that are essentially the same
  • 00:18:49
    because this is a narrative where I'm trying to explore
  • 00:18:53
    various aspects of racism as well,
  • 00:18:55
    whether it's internalized racism,
  • 00:18:57
    overt racism, casual racism, you know, lateral violence.
  • 00:19:03
    And so looking at, okay,
  • 00:19:06
    how do you structure a book
  • 00:19:08
    in terms of the narrative arc of the book.
  • 00:19:12
    And also, and what can I include
  • 00:19:17
    or leave out in order to get that structure?
  • 00:19:19
    So it was, yeah, as I said at the beginning,
  • 00:19:21
    a very patchwork process of kind of writing
  • 00:19:25
    these vignettes individually.
  • 00:19:28
    And then I think also probably about halfway through
  • 00:19:31
    the process I realized, you know,
  • 00:19:33
    I was thinking about that, you know,
  • 00:19:37
    African slash West Indian storytelling tradition
  • 00:19:41
    of you know, telling stories around the fire,
  • 00:19:43
    passing stories around through an oral tradition
  • 00:19:46
    and decided to use this particular refrain through the book,
  • 00:19:49
    kind of this is how it happens or else what's a story for.
  • 00:19:53
    And part of the reason I did that was
  • 00:19:55
    I wanted to acknowledge
  • 00:19:56
    that this is a work of creative nonfiction.
  • 00:19:59
    So to say to the reader, every now and then,
  • 00:20:03
    aha, I'm actually telling you this story
  • 00:20:06
    for a particular purpose in a particular way.
  • 00:20:09
    You know, this is not the sum of my life,
  • 00:20:11
    we were on this journey for a reason.
  • 00:20:13
    And that to me was a way of kind of being honest
  • 00:20:17
    about the process because I think the hate race,
  • 00:20:21
    you could frame a memoir,
  • 00:20:25
    really you could use any device to frame a memoir
  • 00:20:27
    in the same way.
  • 00:20:28
    So if, you know, if you're into fashion,
  • 00:20:30
    you could do a memoir in all the dresses
  • 00:20:31
    you've worn throughout your life, or even if you're not,
  • 00:20:34
    you know, I could do a memoir
  • 00:20:35
    and these are the dresses I've worn throughout my life.
  • 00:20:37
    So being hyper aware that there are all these things,
  • 00:20:40
    like, you know, going to the local roller skating ring
  • 00:20:43
    or playing the trumpet in the school band
  • 00:20:46
    or whatever it was that didn't end up in the memoir
  • 00:20:49
    because it's a work of creative nonfiction,
  • 00:20:51
    it's not a whole life autobiography.
  • 00:20:56
    So yeah, in that process of writing,
  • 00:20:57
    thinking, what is the most authentic way for me
  • 00:21:00
    to acknowledge what this story is and why it's being told.
  • 00:21:06
    - In that process of kind of threading together
  • 00:21:09
    all of those vignettes,
  • 00:21:10
    obviously you kind of touched on how that meant
  • 00:21:13
    taking certain things out
  • 00:21:14
    and also the refrain that you mentioned as well,
  • 00:21:17
    that kind of was a way of piecing things together.
  • 00:21:19
    Was there anything else that kind of came with
  • 00:21:22
    trying to create a cohesive narrative
  • 00:21:24
    out of those vignettes?
  • 00:21:25
    - Yeah, so initially when this memoir was picked up
  • 00:21:30
    for publication, it wasn't finished,
  • 00:21:32
    it was kind of maybe four or five chapters
  • 00:21:35
    when it was, when I realized it was gonna be published
  • 00:21:38
    or publisher made an offer on it
  • 00:21:39
    and it was intended to be actually up to adulthood.
  • 00:21:44
    So the memoir's currently in two parts,
  • 00:21:46
    which is primary school and high school.
  • 00:21:48
    And it was intended to be childhood and adulthood.
  • 00:21:53
    And so I actually wrote the memoir through
  • 00:21:57
    and then looked at it
  • 00:21:59
    and thought these are two completely different stories.
  • 00:22:03
    You know, the story of the country that Australia was
  • 00:22:06
    in the eighties and nineties,
  • 00:22:08
    post white Australia policy with increased migration
  • 00:22:12
    and the way that people behaved,
  • 00:22:14
    even though obviously there's racism, you know,
  • 00:22:17
    that still pervades now,
  • 00:22:20
    there were two really different stories.
  • 00:22:23
    And also the way a child navigates the world
  • 00:22:26
    is really specific.
  • 00:22:28
    You know, when you don't know all these historical things
  • 00:22:31
    and you dunno why people are treating you like this
  • 00:22:32
    and you don't know the history of things.
  • 00:22:35
    And so in that process I suddenly realized
  • 00:22:39
    this should be a childhood memoir.
  • 00:22:42
    So I kind of was left with almost half a book
  • 00:22:45
    and I went back and I thought, no, there's more here.
  • 00:22:48
    Like I need to unpack that school part more
  • 00:22:50
    because this is really a particular time in somebody's life
  • 00:22:53
    is grappling with growing up
  • 00:22:55
    and all of these different things as well.
  • 00:22:57
    And so that was really interesting as well
  • 00:22:59
    was that this book suddenly became something different.
  • 00:23:02
    And I don't think that that would've happened
  • 00:23:06
    had I not gone through that messy process
  • 00:23:08
    of that first draft.
  • 00:23:12
    And so, yeah, I think that's probably the most significant
  • 00:23:16
    change that came out of the process of writing
  • 00:23:20
    was realizing this is a childhood memoir
  • 00:23:22
    and just leaning into that.
  • 00:23:24
    Like all the messiness and awkwardness
  • 00:23:26
    and ridiculousness of being a teenager
  • 00:23:28
    and you know, wading through that.
  • 00:23:31
    - Yeah, it's so interesting.
  • 00:23:33
    The other day I was over at my aunt's house
  • 00:23:36
    and I have a little cousin, two years old.
  • 00:23:38
    And she was like pointing at something in the fridge
  • 00:23:40
    and I couldn't quite figure out what it was.
  • 00:23:41
    So I kind of like bent down to her level to figure it out
  • 00:23:44
    and I realized how differently the world looks
  • 00:23:47
    from that perspective.
  • 00:23:48
    And so, kind of touching on what you were saying
  • 00:23:50
    about this turning into a childhood memoir,
  • 00:23:55
    there's something so distinct I feel about the way
  • 00:23:57
    you see the world as a child
  • 00:23:59
    and I feel like that definitely carries through
  • 00:24:01
    in your writing.
  • 00:24:01
    Would you agree?
  • 00:24:02
    - Yeah, definitely.
  • 00:24:03
    And that's a really interesting observation.
  • 00:24:06
    You know, when you're a parent and you have to,
  • 00:24:08
    like at every stage when kids are growing,
  • 00:24:10
    you have to watermark the house.
  • 00:24:11
    Like, okay, they're this high,
  • 00:24:12
    so I'm gonna have to get rid of everything up to this hide.
  • 00:24:15
    And even returning to my old primary school
  • 00:24:18
    and walking around and thinking,
  • 00:24:21
    I remember the grade six seats being huge
  • 00:24:24
    and I remember the toilet blockers being, you know,
  • 00:24:27
    like you were scared to go in there
  • 00:24:28
    'cause there was all these people
  • 00:24:29
    and there's only four tiny stalls in there
  • 00:24:31
    or whatever it is.
  • 00:24:33
    And I think, yeah, going back to,
  • 00:24:36
    which is a technique that I use when I'm writing fiction
  • 00:24:38
    as well, is thinking about if I was five, you know,
  • 00:24:42
    what would be the first thing I looked at
  • 00:24:43
    when I walked in this room?
  • 00:24:44
    What would I want for breakfast?
  • 00:24:46
    What would I be wearing right now?
  • 00:24:48
    And using that technique to kind of,
  • 00:24:52
    I think one of the things I tried to do
  • 00:24:54
    when I was writing the book, you know,
  • 00:24:55
    there is a bit of omniscient narration
  • 00:24:57
    in terms of giving the history of, you know,
  • 00:25:02
    in the nineties Pauline Hanson came on the scene
  • 00:25:04
    and you know, there's a little bit of that,
  • 00:25:06
    but by and large the book is, I tried not to be didactic,
  • 00:25:11
    so I tried to kind of,
  • 00:25:13
    it's just a child navigating this story
  • 00:25:16
    and trying not to come in with my adult voice and say,
  • 00:25:19
    and that child was horrible
  • 00:25:20
    and should have been put on detention.
  • 00:25:22
    You know? (laughing)
  • 00:25:23
    Just kind of letting the story unfold,
  • 00:25:25
    which is quite hard to do, you know,
  • 00:25:27
    as someone who's survived the story is kind of,
  • 00:25:32
    I want to just try and tell the story and leave it there.
  • 00:25:35
    And if I do a good enough job,
  • 00:25:37
    then hopefully it will have the impact that I intend.
  • 00:25:40
    - Yeah.
  • 00:25:41
    So we've kind of spoken about it already with like
  • 00:25:45
    how you had to cut things out
  • 00:25:47
    and kind of narrow down the scope of the story,
  • 00:25:49
    but can you explain a little bit about the practicalities
  • 00:25:52
    of the drafting process for you?
  • 00:25:54
    - Hmm. So I'm quite a lean writer.
  • 00:26:00
    I'm my own worst editor.
  • 00:26:03
    Like, I tend to cut back and cut back and cut back
  • 00:26:06
    and cut back until I go, hang on,
  • 00:26:06
    there's only two sentences left of that paragraph.
  • 00:26:10
    And so I edit a lot as I go, you know?
  • 00:26:13
    And I ask myself, you know, do I need this?
  • 00:26:16
    What kind of indicators?
  • 00:26:18
    You know, and things like thinking about
  • 00:26:27
    when I'm kind of going through the drafting process
  • 00:26:29
    and maybe I've written a first draft,
  • 00:26:33
    going through those checklists
  • 00:26:34
    of have I created the atmosphere?
  • 00:26:37
    Have I talked about what the weather was like,
  • 00:26:39
    you know, what could I smell?
  • 00:26:41
    Those things that, you know,
  • 00:26:43
    I was learning in "The Hate Race"
  • 00:26:44
    when I was in English class in, you know,
  • 00:26:46
    grade six or seven or whatever,
  • 00:26:48
    of like, you need to use your senses
  • 00:26:50
    and sight, and touch, and smell,
  • 00:26:52
    and you know what's around you.
  • 00:26:53
    And so there was a lot of that in the editing process
  • 00:26:56
    of looking at the scene I'd written and thinking,
  • 00:26:59
    have I thought enough about
  • 00:27:03
    how to use those sensors to build a scene
  • 00:27:06
    and to build atmosphere.
  • 00:27:08
    So for example, you know,
  • 00:27:10
    you'll find there's a lot of quiet moments
  • 00:27:13
    where all of a sudden you hear the background noise,
  • 00:27:16
    you know, it's kind of like if you're watching it unfold
  • 00:27:18
    as movie, the sound will suddenly turn up, you know,
  • 00:27:21
    and you'd hear the birds squawking
  • 00:27:22
    and you'd hear those things that
  • 00:27:25
    become really emphasized when you're stressed
  • 00:27:30
    or when you're kind of in that moment of stillness.
  • 00:27:33
    So thinking about in the drafting process,
  • 00:27:37
    what kind of things like that can I add
  • 00:27:40
    to actually drive the story and add atmosphere?
  • 00:27:44
    I do a lot of, I do a lot of different edits.
  • 00:27:48
    So I'll do structural edits looking at,
  • 00:27:51
    is this chapter sitting okay, is it paste okay, you know,
  • 00:27:54
    does the story unfold fast enough or slow enough?
  • 00:27:59
    I'll do copy edits looking at the line by line.
  • 00:28:03
    So you'll notice that in "The Hate Race"
  • 00:28:05
    when things get really difficult or traumatic,
  • 00:28:08
    it almost goes into poetry.
  • 00:28:10
    You know, you have these short lines
  • 00:28:12
    where if you took that section out,
  • 00:28:14
    it could essentially be a poem on a page.
  • 00:28:17
    So can I change the writing style to add emotion or to,
  • 00:28:22
    you know, to add something for this character.
  • 00:28:26
    And then, yeah, as I talked about before,
  • 00:28:27
    looking at editing the actual characters, you know,
  • 00:28:31
    who is in the picture here.
  • 00:28:33
    And even things like, oh like I haven't heard from my sister
  • 00:28:36
    for a while, where is she, you know? (laughing)
  • 00:28:39
    Is there a story I remember about her?
  • 00:28:40
    So making sure that that consistency
  • 00:28:43
    of telling an overarching narrative is there,
  • 00:28:45
    not just for Maxine but for all the other characters
  • 00:28:50
    in the book as well. - Yeah.
  • 00:28:52
    So when you are drafting,
  • 00:28:54
    would you say because of kind of all of these edits
  • 00:28:57
    that you go through and make that you can kind of demarcate
  • 00:28:59
    when you have, okay, this is a first draft,
  • 00:29:01
    this is a second draft,
  • 00:29:02
    and how many do you usually go through in that instance?
  • 00:29:05
    Or do you find that it's kind of more of a malleable thing
  • 00:29:07
    and the whole object of the book
  • 00:29:10
    is just kind of evolving seamlessly?
  • 00:29:14
    - Yeah, I think that's a great question.
  • 00:29:16
    I think there are some sections where,
  • 00:29:19
    very small sections of the book where what's in there
  • 00:29:21
    is almost a first draft, you know?
  • 00:29:24
    Are just kind of combination of luck and concentration
  • 00:29:27
    and all the writing, doing all the right things.
  • 00:29:30
    But that's probably, you know,
  • 00:29:31
    out of what 280 odd pages that might be 20 pages
  • 00:29:37
    and the rest, you know,
  • 00:29:39
    I'd say probably the most redrafted bit
  • 00:29:41
    would be like 25th the draft, you know,
  • 00:29:44
    that something that I just could not get the tone right,
  • 00:29:47
    or could not get the character right,
  • 00:29:48
    or just kept reading thinking this is not what it was like,
  • 00:29:52
    I'm not able to explain this.
  • 00:29:54
    So I think it's, I don't usually kind of
  • 00:29:59
    have a first draft of the whole thing,
  • 00:30:01
    second draft of the whole thing.
  • 00:30:03
    It's kind of, I'll do a first,
  • 00:30:06
    there's probably a first draft,
  • 00:30:07
    there's always a first draft obviously,
  • 00:30:10
    but then when I'm redrafting that there'll be sections
  • 00:30:13
    that I maybe I don't touch
  • 00:30:15
    and then the bulk of it that I'll rework.
  • 00:30:17
    And it just depends on how good a job I've done.
  • 00:30:21
    And sometimes that can be down to like,
  • 00:30:23
    I was just lazy that day. (laughing)
  • 00:30:26
    That particular day I wrote this particular chapter,
  • 00:30:28
    I was just not on game so I have to redraft it
  • 00:30:31
    about a hundred times.
  • 00:30:34
    So yeah, there's no kind of magic answer.
  • 00:30:36
    I think it's just,
  • 00:30:38
    is this section of the book doing what I need it to do?
  • 00:30:42
    Is it conveying the emotion I need it to convey?
  • 00:30:45
    Is there something else it needs?
  • 00:30:48
    And you know, there's kind of this saying
  • 00:30:51
    that art is never finished, it's just abandoned.
  • 00:30:54
    You know, you could kind of keep going on it forever.
  • 00:30:56
    (laughing)
  • 00:30:57
    So I tend to just leave it when,
  • 00:31:00
    either when the deadline's up (laughing)
  • 00:31:03
    or when it's kind of like I'm worried
  • 00:31:06
    I'm gonna damage it if I, you know, if I touch it anymore.
  • 00:31:08
    Yeah.
  • 00:31:10
    - Do you ever feel a pressure on yourself
  • 00:31:13
    to get that magic first draft when you sit down to write?
  • 00:31:16
    Or do you kind of just let yourself write
  • 00:31:18
    and whether it's perfect the first time or it needs work,
  • 00:31:21
    you kind of just let it stand?
  • 00:31:24
    - I think, I think the pressure to get a good first draft
  • 00:31:29
    has diminished a bit as I kind of matured as a writer
  • 00:31:34
    and as I write more and more I just realized
  • 00:31:37
    there are some things that will just happen to be,
  • 00:31:41
    you know, almost there the first time.
  • 00:31:43
    And it is frustrating when you write something
  • 00:31:45
    and you think, I know this is a long way away
  • 00:31:48
    from being finished.
  • 00:31:49
    And you don't know, like you think it's a long way away,
  • 00:31:52
    but it could be three drafts away
  • 00:31:54
    or it could be 30 drafts away.
  • 00:31:58
    And so yeah, I don't really feel that pressure.
  • 00:32:02
    I mean it might also be, you know,
  • 00:32:03
    I have written poetry for a national newspaper
  • 00:32:08
    under very pressure cooker circumstances.
  • 00:32:11
    You know, where I had two days to, (chuckling)
  • 00:32:13
    they'd give me a topic and it'll be printed in two days.
  • 00:32:15
    I think there are various jobs I've taken on
  • 00:32:17
    throughout my writing life that have made me
  • 00:32:19
    less precious about my work as well.
  • 00:32:23
    And just knowing that it constantly evolves.
  • 00:32:26
    Your work constantly evolves.
  • 00:32:28
    - Yeah.
  • 00:32:30
    So what is the process of reviewing
  • 00:32:35
    and getting feedback for your work like?
  • 00:32:39
    - I think I'm probably at the stage now
  • 00:32:42
    where my publishers are usually the first people
  • 00:32:46
    that will see my work.
  • 00:32:48
    I think, you know, even up to seven, eight years ago
  • 00:32:54
    I might have swapped with a writer friend
  • 00:32:56
    or you know, we agreed to meet up
  • 00:32:58
    and give each other feedback.
  • 00:33:00
    But I feel that my voice has probably developed to a point
  • 00:33:04
    where unless something's not working,
  • 00:33:08
    I kind of don't seek out other readers.
  • 00:33:10
    And if something's not working or unless I have doubts
  • 00:33:13
    about a particular piece, I'll really kind of say,
  • 00:33:17
    can you read this and kind of give me your opinion on it?
  • 00:33:24
    Which I think is an interesting place to be.
  • 00:33:27
    'cause you don't wanna be sure of yourself all the time.
  • 00:33:30
    And it's not necessarily that I think everything I write
  • 00:33:32
    is perfect, it's also just that evolution of a writer.
  • 00:33:36
    You go from publishing short stories here and there,
  • 00:33:40
    poetry here and there in literary journals
  • 00:33:41
    where you are getting feedback from different editors
  • 00:33:45
    to just publishing them in books, you know,
  • 00:33:48
    because you're able to do that.
  • 00:33:51
    I love the editing process.
  • 00:33:53
    Like I absolutely, you know,
  • 00:33:55
    like I'm brutal to myself as an editor,
  • 00:33:58
    but I just love giving it to someone
  • 00:34:00
    and knowing that that person's gonna come to it
  • 00:34:03
    with fresh eyes.
  • 00:34:05
    You know, sometimes you just can't see the wood
  • 00:34:07
    for the trees.
  • 00:34:08
    It's like you've been working on this for so long
  • 00:34:11
    that you would just never pick up,
  • 00:34:14
    you'd never pick up on anything that's wrong
  • 00:34:16
    because you've worked it and reworked it
  • 00:34:17
    and you just need someone else's eyes on it.
  • 00:34:21
    And there are even things like,
  • 00:34:24
    there's one book I was writing where the editor said to me,
  • 00:34:28
    I can't remember if it was blue or yellow,
  • 00:34:30
    but one of those colors say blue,
  • 00:34:33
    blue is your default color.
  • 00:34:35
    So like, the lunchbox in this story is blue
  • 00:34:38
    and the backpack in this story is blue.
  • 00:34:39
    And you know, and these are stories that I wrote
  • 00:34:42
    over five, six years,
  • 00:34:45
    but it's just for some reason there's that default
  • 00:34:47
    in my brain that if I have to make up a color it's...
  • 00:34:50
    And I don't realize that because it's one of those,
  • 00:34:54
    you know, those things that I'm, I can't see anymore.
  • 00:34:57
    And so yeah, things like that are really handy.
  • 00:34:59
    And I think also even when you get an edit back,
  • 00:35:02
    I've never had an edit back.
  • 00:35:03
    That's been a really brutal edit.
  • 00:35:05
    'Cause I think my writing's quite lean,
  • 00:35:07
    but even when you get an edit back where
  • 00:35:09
    you only agree with say 65% of it,
  • 00:35:13
    sometimes the best edits come out of those arguments
  • 00:35:17
    of kind of going back and saying, well what did you mean?
  • 00:35:19
    Why do I have to clarify this? What, you know?
  • 00:35:21
    And sometimes the editor will change your mind,
  • 00:35:23
    sometimes you'll change the editor's mind.
  • 00:35:27
    But yeah, I think I'm a writer who just, you know,
  • 00:35:32
    anything that can make my work better
  • 00:35:34
    and that I can't offer is really, really useful.
  • 00:35:40
    Yeah.
  • 00:35:41
    - When you have those doubts with your stories
  • 00:35:43
    or there's something that's not working
  • 00:35:45
    and you kind of seek out that fresh pair of eyes,
  • 00:35:48
    is it a matter of identifying what the problem is
  • 00:35:50
    and trying to find someone with expertise in that area?
  • 00:35:53
    Or is it kind of just letting whoever is accessible to you
  • 00:35:57
    at the time kind of open your eyes to something
  • 00:35:59
    that you might not even be aware of yet?
  • 00:36:02
    - Yeah, that's a great question.
  • 00:36:03
    Sometimes it is.
  • 00:36:06
    Yeah, I need to go and talk to this particular person.
  • 00:36:10
    Had a piece that I was writing recently that had,
  • 00:36:14
    there was cricket in the background of this story.
  • 00:36:15
    I know nothing about cricket.
  • 00:36:17
    I don't know the scoring system, I don't know the lingo,
  • 00:36:19
    I dunno.
  • 00:36:20
    So, you know, just literally, you know,
  • 00:36:22
    putting a call out.
  • 00:36:23
    Does anyone play cricket as a kid, you know? (laughing)
  • 00:36:27
    So yeah, sometimes it is,
  • 00:36:29
    whether it's a particular slice of history,
  • 00:36:32
    whether it's someone from a particular cultural background
  • 00:36:35
    that, you know, you might be able to bounce off.
  • 00:36:38
    And I'll often have writers kind of who are friends
  • 00:36:42
    contact me and say,
  • 00:36:42
    Hey, what do you think about this particular thing?
  • 00:36:44
    Or, you know, something about whatever it is.
  • 00:36:47
    Whitney Houston, you know,
  • 00:36:49
    you are the Whitney Houston expert.
  • 00:36:52
    So yeah, it is other, you know, other heads in the mix.
  • 00:36:55
    And then sometimes it is just things like fact checking.
  • 00:37:00
    So, you know, I kind of talked about that
  • 00:37:04
    John Farnham example,
  • 00:37:05
    but you know, there are stories,
  • 00:37:08
    short stories I've written where I've,
  • 00:37:10
    there's a particular story gaps
  • 00:37:11
    in the (indistinct) in my book "Foreign Soil"
  • 00:37:13
    where the editor said, where is this town New Market?
  • 00:37:16
    Like it's kind of in Louisiana,
  • 00:37:18
    but it's not in Louisiana and it's not in New Orleans.
  • 00:37:21
    And I said, I made it up. (laughing)
  • 00:37:23
    It's a completely fictional town
  • 00:37:26
    and I made it up for that reason.
  • 00:37:27
    'Cause I knew someone would try and find out,
  • 00:37:30
    you know, does this place exist?
  • 00:37:32
    So even things like that where, you know,
  • 00:37:35
    that was not useful because I deliberately made up a town
  • 00:37:39
    that I dumped in the middle of this place
  • 00:37:40
    where there was nothing.
  • 00:37:44
    But I know that that editor has my back
  • 00:37:47
    and that if I make a mistake, you know,
  • 00:37:50
    they're going to pick it up
  • 00:37:51
    because they've literally gotten stage of getting out
  • 00:37:54
    the map, you know?
  • 00:37:56
    And that can be really helpful with research as well,
  • 00:37:58
    because often you forget.
  • 00:38:01
    So I'll do all this research about, you know,
  • 00:38:03
    if it's "The Hate Race", I'll do all this research about,
  • 00:38:07
    you know, the Nintendo Atari ads in the 1980s.
  • 00:38:11
    And then I'll change something in one of the ads,
  • 00:38:15
    like just because I've been working on it
  • 00:38:16
    for a year or whatever.
  • 00:38:19
    And I'll just forget that,
  • 00:38:20
    oh, this is actually an ad that existed, you know,
  • 00:38:24
    and they'll kind of say to me,
  • 00:38:25
    did you mean to change the actual wording
  • 00:38:27
    of this advertisement?
  • 00:38:29
    And I'll say, no,
  • 00:38:29
    I just completely forgot that the basis of this
  • 00:38:32
    was actually, you know?
  • 00:38:34
    So yeah, so things like, yeah, whether it's fact checking,
  • 00:38:38
    whether it's structure, whether it's...
  • 00:38:40
    And sometimes as a writer,
  • 00:38:42
    you know what you intend to say or you know, well always,
  • 00:38:45
    you know what you mean,
  • 00:38:47
    but often you haven't given someone else
  • 00:38:50
    enough information to actually,
  • 00:38:53
    you know you're just assuming they're going to know.
  • 00:38:54
    So also just when an editor says, I don't understand,
  • 00:38:59
    I don't actually understand what they're talking about,
  • 00:39:01
    or I don't understand why this person did this?
  • 00:39:05
    I think, well if the editor's asking me that,
  • 00:39:06
    a reader's going to be asking it of themselves.
  • 00:39:08
    So the editor is just your first reader,
  • 00:39:11
    but your first reader with all these skills
  • 00:39:13
    that can help you.
  • 00:39:14
    Yeah.
  • 00:39:15
    - Yeah.
  • 00:39:16
    You mentioned before that because you're a lean writer,
  • 00:39:18
    you don't usually get very like brutal edits,
  • 00:39:21
    but have you ever received any feedback
  • 00:39:23
    that was just really hard to take or really critical?
  • 00:39:26
    And if so, how did you kind of manage and navigate that?
  • 00:39:29
    - That's a great question.
  • 00:39:33
    I mean, I think with reviews you definitely
  • 00:39:35
    get some brutal reviews that's kind of too late
  • 00:39:38
    in the process to do anything about it.
  • 00:39:40
    And you know, I think with critiques,
  • 00:39:43
    there are some legitimate critiques
  • 00:39:45
    that you get where you kind of think,
  • 00:39:48
    oh yeah, I could have done that a bit better.
  • 00:39:50
    Maybe you won't think it when you've read the review,
  • 00:39:52
    but years later, you know,
  • 00:39:54
    when you're writing something else you're like,
  • 00:39:55
    yeah, I could have done a bit better.
  • 00:39:58
    I think probably my most brutal feedback
  • 00:40:03
    would've been before I was, book published.
  • 00:40:06
    So when I was getting solo pieces published
  • 00:40:09
    in literary journals and working with editors,
  • 00:40:15
    and that was really useful as a young writer, you know,
  • 00:40:18
    I didn't always love it
  • 00:40:19
    and I didn't always agree with edits.
  • 00:40:22
    And I think also in the process of trying
  • 00:40:24
    to get my short fiction collection published,
  • 00:40:29
    a lot of the feedback I got from publisher I was,
  • 00:40:31
    I was submitting to was, these stories are too harsh,
  • 00:40:36
    they're too violent, they're too black,
  • 00:40:37
    they're too, you know?
  • 00:40:39
    Which was kind of politics.
  • 00:40:41
    It wasn't about the actual writing
  • 00:40:43
    or the quality of the work.
  • 00:40:45
    So I think as a writer,
  • 00:40:46
    it's really important to be able to separate those things
  • 00:40:49
    and to say, okay,
  • 00:40:50
    this is actually about the quality of the work
  • 00:40:53
    and the way I tell a story.
  • 00:40:54
    And this is just someone who has
  • 00:40:56
    some kind of political issue with my work who,
  • 00:40:59
    doesn't matter how I write it,
  • 00:41:00
    they're not gonna like the work.
  • 00:41:03
    But yeah, those critiques are important.
  • 00:41:08
    - Could you elaborate more on what it's like
  • 00:41:09
    to kind of navigate the politics of being a black writer?
  • 00:41:14
    - Yeah, I think.
  • 00:41:17
    I guess it's an interesting place to be.
  • 00:41:20
    I think there are two sites to it.
  • 00:41:22
    You know, the first is that you are expected
  • 00:41:25
    to write about race.
  • 00:41:27
    You know, you were expected to be the voice for, you know,
  • 00:41:31
    everybody who looks like you or your,
  • 00:41:34
    that's what you're held up as by, you know,
  • 00:41:36
    whether it's a publisher or whether it's reviewers
  • 00:41:38
    or whatever, which is partly a privilege.
  • 00:41:42
    And it can also be a burden
  • 00:41:44
    because as a writer you just wanna be a writer.
  • 00:41:47
    You just wanna be able to tell whatever story you feel like
  • 00:41:49
    telling that day.
  • 00:41:50
    If that happens to be the story,
  • 00:41:52
    that's fine, but if not, you know,
  • 00:41:53
    so you often get pigeonholed into writing about race,
  • 00:42:00
    I think, or writing about, you know,
  • 00:42:02
    the way that you are minoritized,
  • 00:42:04
    whatever minority background you're from.
  • 00:42:10
    And I think, you know,
  • 00:42:13
    it's also an amazing time for diverse literature
  • 00:42:16
    in Australia at the moment.
  • 00:42:20
    Or at least it has been over the last 10 years.
  • 00:42:25
    I kind of feel like that's slipping a little bit
  • 00:42:27
    in this kind of COIVID era.
  • 00:42:31
    And just, I think I have a hyper awareness as an author
  • 00:42:35
    that so much of what we read is filtered by the white gaze.
  • 00:42:43
    Whether that's editors, whether it's publishing houses,
  • 00:42:45
    whether it's, you know,
  • 00:42:48
    the entire publishing industry as a machine
  • 00:42:51
    is not as multicultural as Australia is.
  • 00:42:55
    And so that impacts what we get,
  • 00:42:58
    what we get on the shelves
  • 00:43:00
    and the way our work is talked about and things like that.
  • 00:43:04
    And I try not to let it impact
  • 00:43:06
    on what I choose to write about.
  • 00:43:09
    So, you know,
  • 00:43:10
    if I wanna write a kid's book about a bookshop,
  • 00:43:12
    which is like my latest book,
  • 00:43:14
    then I'm just gonna do that, you know?
  • 00:43:16
    And there will be things within that work
  • 00:43:18
    that maybe speak to race,
  • 00:43:19
    whether it's illustrations or, you know,
  • 00:43:21
    the way I tell the story.
  • 00:43:22
    Maybe or maybe there won't be.
  • 00:43:26
    But yeah, I think we all should just be seen as storytellers
  • 00:43:32
    and that's, you know, whatever story you are telling,
  • 00:43:35
    it's about the quality of the story
  • 00:43:37
    and the way that it resonates with readers.
  • 00:43:43
    - So how do you know when you've gotten to a point
  • 00:43:45
    where the story in front of you is ready for publication?
  • 00:43:49
    - Ah, great question.
  • 00:43:51
    Often it's when my publisher is wrestling it
  • 00:43:53
    from my hands saying, Maxine, we have a deadline.
  • 00:43:57
    No, I think...
  • 00:44:00
    I try to have some space between having written a story
  • 00:44:05
    and deciding whether or not if it's possible,
  • 00:44:09
    I try not to write to a publication date.
  • 00:44:13
    So it's kind of saying it'll be published in 2025
  • 00:44:16
    at some point.
  • 00:44:18
    Obviously as it gets closer you have to kind of pick a date,
  • 00:44:21
    but that way I can kind of work on a story
  • 00:44:24
    or work on a book
  • 00:44:25
    and then leave it for two months, three months,
  • 00:44:27
    six months and come back to it.
  • 00:44:29
    I think that's often when I can see the holes in things,
  • 00:44:33
    you know, that kind of glow of, oh, it's finished
  • 00:44:36
    and it's ready, it is gone and I'm ready to be critical.
  • 00:44:43
    And I think I get to that stage where I think
  • 00:44:47
    if I work on this anymore,
  • 00:44:48
    I'm going to make it worse and not better.
  • 00:44:51
    It's almost like a carving a sculpture, you know,
  • 00:44:55
    it's like you carve and you carve,
  • 00:44:56
    it's getting better and better and better
  • 00:44:57
    and then you lop the arm off and it's like,
  • 00:44:59
    there is no way of putting that back.
  • 00:45:01
    (laughing)
  • 00:45:04
    So I think, yeah, being aware that
  • 00:45:06
    there is a point at which you just have to step away.
  • 00:45:12
    And there are always, there are always times
  • 00:45:15
    when I'll be reading my work,
  • 00:45:16
    you know, whether it's at a school visit
  • 00:45:18
    or at a festival, whatever.
  • 00:45:19
    And I think, oh, I wouldn't write that sentence
  • 00:45:21
    like this now, you know?
  • 00:45:22
    I'd make this or edited as I'm talking.
  • 00:45:26
    So in a sense I think,
  • 00:45:27
    nothing is ever ready for publication.
  • 00:45:31
    But for me, if it needs to read well,
  • 00:45:34
    I need to feel like I'm done with the story, you know,
  • 00:45:37
    it's been told and it's been told in a way that I feel...
  • 00:45:41
    And I think I try to read my work as a reader,
  • 00:45:43
    it's very difficult to do,
  • 00:45:45
    but I try to leave it and come back to it
  • 00:45:48
    and think if this was someone else's book
  • 00:45:51
    and I was picking it up,
  • 00:45:53
    would I be satisfied with it?
  • 00:45:55
    And if I wouldn't,
  • 00:45:56
    then I need to go back to the drawing board.
  • 00:45:59
    - Nice.
  • 00:46:00
    Well thank you so much for speaking with me today
  • 00:46:03
    and yeah, thanks for having-
  • 00:46:04
    thanks for coming on today. (laughing)
  • 00:46:05
    - Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
  • 00:46:08
    (air wooshing)
Tags
  • Maxine Beneba Clarke
  • The Hate Race
  • writing process
  • memoir
  • creative nonfiction
  • race
  • storytelling
  • Australian literature
  • editing
  • research