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hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove
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today we're going to be examining the
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mind not as an object of reality but as
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an illusion as a myth with me is mr. ug
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Krishnamurti a philosopher and world
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traveler ug is the author of several
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books based on his conversations one is
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called the mystique of enlightenment and
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the other is mind is a myth he sometimes
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thought of as an anti guru as a man who
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defies all definition as a reluctant
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sage welcome ug thank you it's a
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pleasure to be with you in your thinking
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if I can call it that you you seem to
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suggest that but the mind isn't real in
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the sense that there's no mind separate
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from the body yeah what is there is only
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the body where is mind if there is a
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mind is it separate from or distinct
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from the activity of the brain so they
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it is very difficult to deal with the
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question of mind is if we are only
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familiar with the definitions the the
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topic is mind is a myth but the series
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you have here is called thinking aloud
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thinking aloud or silently brings into
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the picture a very fundamental question
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what thinking is and why do we think
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these questions arise from the
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assumption that the thoughts are self
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generated and spontaneous
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but actually the brain is only a reactor
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not a creator it is very difficult to
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accept this because we have for
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centuries being made to believe or
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brainwashed that is very difficult to
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accept my statement that there is there
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are no thoughts at all well you seem to
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be taking a position which we would
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categorize as being very materialistic
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and very mechanistic that the brain is
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nothing more than a machine or a
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computer it is actually a computer but
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we are naughty not ready to accept it
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for centuries we have been made to
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believe that there is an entity there is
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an AI that there is itself that there is
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a psyche that there is a mind and so on
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the soul whatsoever spirit if you accept
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the fact it may not be a factor to you
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we may not accept it even most probably
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reject it and most people will not
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hesitate to reject that there is no such
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a thing as a soul and soul is created by
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the thinking of man we have been fed on
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this kind of a bunk for centuries they
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died for to be changeable do all die of
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starvation we have many words for things
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that are intangible we talk about love
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or honesty or integrity as if they were
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real objects and and yet they're not
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objects so much as as qualities or
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process yes I'm afraid we are lifting
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away from the basic question if you do
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not want it thing is there a thinking
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one thing and thinking go together and
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thought is matter you see so you use
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thought to achieve either material or
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spiritual goals but unfortunately we
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place the spiritual ghosts in a higher
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level and consider ourselves to be very
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superior to those who use the thought to
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achieve material goals
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so actually whether you call it
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spiritual or material even the so-called
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spiritual values are materialistic in
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their values so it is matter
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thought is matter and as I said at the
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very beginning thought is not a creator
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of thought it is responding to the
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stimuli and if the what is there is only
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the stimulus and response even the fact
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that there is a response to the stimulus
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is something which cannot be experienced
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by us except through the help of thought
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which creates a division between the
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stimulus and response actually the
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stimulus and response is a unitary
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moment you can't even say that there is
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a sensation and you have no way of
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experiencing even the so-called
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sensations we think we experience them
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all the time cannot be experienced by us
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except for the knowledge we have of the
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sensations and we infer from all of this
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that there is a self that there is a
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mind that is mediating between the
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stimulus and the response what is there
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is only the knowledge we have of the
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self the knowledge that we have gathered
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from passed down to us from generation
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to generation and through the help of
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this knowledge we create what we call
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cell and then experience itself is
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separate from the functioning of this
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body so he is there such a thing as
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itself is there such a thing as I for me
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the only I is the first person singular
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pronoun I use I to make the conversation
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simpler and call you you and I but there
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is simply what we call I is only a first
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person singular pronoun
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I don't know if we it's a part of speech
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yes other than that is there any such
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thing as AI is there any such thing as
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self is there any such entity different
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from the functioning of this living
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organism see somewhere along the line of
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evolution I can't even make a definitive
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statement and say that there is such a
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thing as evolution but we assume in
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presume that there is such a thing as
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evolution it's somewhere along the line
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the human species experience this is
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self consciousness which doesn't exist
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in the other species we have on this
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planet you seem to be suggesting it's a
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product of our language not necessarily
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the product of language today the very
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experience of what we call what
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separates us from the totality of things
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then the problem is and that is what I
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want to emphasize the whole nature is a
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single unit this man cannot separate
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himself from the totality of what we
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call nature unfortunately through the
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help of this self-consciousness which
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occurred somewhere along the line he
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accorded to himself a superior place and
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placed himself on a higher level and
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treated himself and we still continue to
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treat as superior to the other species
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of life that we have on this planet that
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is the reason why we have created this
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disharmony that is why we have created
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this tremendous problems ecological
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problems and other problems actually man
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or whatever you want to call him cannot
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be separated from the totality of nature
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that is where we have created one of the
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greatest blunders and that unfortunately
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is the tragedy of man don't you yourself
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say at times that there really is no
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problem that since we are part of the
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totality of nature there nothing really
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is wrong even if we're doomed
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yes but we are not ready to accept the
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fact that there is no problem actually
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there is no problem but we have only
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solutions offer to us and we accept the
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solutions offered to us by those whom we
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consider to be in position of the truth
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imposition of the wisdom and those
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solutions do not help us to solve the
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problems at all we see so we replaced
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one solution with another solution the
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problem is the solution and the solution
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has not helped us to solve the non
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existing problem so actually it is the
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solution that has created the problem
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and we are not ready to throw the
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solution out of the window because we
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have tremendous confidence in those who
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have offered these solutions early
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things that will free us from the
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problems that the solution has created
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for us what you seem to be saying is
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that we think that the solution to the
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problems of the world is that we can use
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our mind we can act rationally we can
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develop ourselves we can become
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enlightened we can get involved in
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social programs and therefore we can
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solve the problems of the world which
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you're suggesting really only exists as
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problems because we believe we have a
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solution for them yeah what I'm trying
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to suggest is that there is no such
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thing as your mind and my mind for
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purposes of convenience and for want of
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a a better and more adequate word I can
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use the world mind the world mind is the
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totality of man's thoughts feelings and
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experiences passed on to us the world my
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world mine and it is that that has
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created you and me for the sole main
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purpose of maintaining its status for
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its continuity that world mind if I may
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use that word is a self-perpetuating one
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and it's only interest is to maintain
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its continuity it can maintain its
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continuity only through the creation of
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what we call the individual minds
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your mind and my mind so without the
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help of the knowledge you have no way of
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experiencing yourself as an entity you
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see this is so-called entity the eye the
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self the soul the psyche or whatever
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word you want to use is created by that
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and through the help of that you will be
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able to experience these things and so
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what we are caught a piece in this
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vicious circle that the knowledge gives
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you the experience and the experience
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strengthens and fortifies the knowledge
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you seem to be suggesting if I
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understand you correctly then that I'm a
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body here and a brain and my brain
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serves as some kind of an antenna I'm
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receptive to these thoughts that are
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coming to me from the world mind and
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they are they give me the illusion that
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I am an individual self that I have a
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mind even yes but is it possible for you
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let alone the mind or the entity or the
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eye or the self or the soul or whatever
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you want to call it to experience your
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body as a body without the help of that
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knowledge you see for example you look
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at your hand and is this hand you verse
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first of all the hand is created by the
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knowledge you have of that hmm well what
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you say reminds me of experiments with
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people who have been blinded and then
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their operations are performed and they
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see for the first time and they don't
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know anything they have to be taught to
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recognize the things that they see
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without the mediation of the mind if the
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mind is not trained somehow to recognize
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this you're right oh it would all be
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meaningless you see we have only these
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senses no these sensory perceptions do
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not say that this is a hand is it the
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knowledge that we have tells us that
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this is a hand and that this is your
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hand and not my hand otherwise it's just
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a patch of color and form no you don't
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even look at this hand you have no way
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of looking at it you see except through
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the knowledge you have of this hand this
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knowledge
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is put into us till the course of her
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life and you play with a child you tell
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them and show me her hand show me or no
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so show me what T to show me your face
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and what is your name this is how we
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build up you see the identity of the
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individuals relationship with his hand
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with his nose with his eyes and with the
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world around you see so do we look at
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anything you see this so-called looking
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is a bloody experience of viewers but
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you have no way of looking at anything
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at all except for the knowledge so it is
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necessary for us to have that knowledge
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otherwise it is not possible for us to
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function sanely and intelligently it
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helps us to function sanely and
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intelligently and we have to accept the
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reality of the world as it is imposed on
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us otherwise we have no way of
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functioning sanely and intelligently we
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will end up in the loony bin
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singing merry melodies and Looney Tunes
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so it is very essential for us to accept
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the reality of the world as it is
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imposed on us by culture by society or
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whatever you want to call it and leave
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it at that and treat it as functional in
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value and it cannot help us to
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experience the reality of anything but
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there may be a mind independent of
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culture there may be a mind and
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independent of any knowledge that we
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have that which receives culture that is
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an assumption on our part that there is
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a mindless as I said before the totality
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of your experiences feelings thoughts is
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there any such thing as a totality of
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thoughts feelings and experiences we
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assume that there is a totality of we
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were thoughts feelings and experiences
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are there thoughts even that I questions
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there are no thoughts but what is there
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is only the activity about thoughts what
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we call thinking is only a dialectical
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thinking about thinking itself we use
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thoughts the non existing thoughts
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to achieve a goal to accomplish attained
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a goal whether it is material or
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spiritual it really doesn't matter so we
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need this to achieve our goal so if you
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don't want it thing there is no thinking
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at all whether you want this material
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goal or through ritual goal or whether
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you want to be an enlightened man or a
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god man or whether you want to run away
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with the most beautiful girl living next
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door to you the society may condemn such
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a thing but basically the instrument
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which you use to achieve your goal and
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act to see to achieve your goal is only
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through the help of thought otherwise
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any thought that is born out of that it
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creates misery for us because any
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thought that is born out of thought is
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destructive in its nature because it is
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interested in protecting itself thought
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is a protective mechanism it isolates
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you from the totality of the nature
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which cannot be separated from you so
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the difficulty here is that it is
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impossible for you to accept that you
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are not separate from the totality of
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things then what you call nature that
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every form of life we see is also part
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of this nature and when I use the word
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nature you see I used in the general
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sense you see not that I am a special
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insight into nature that others don't
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have you are not separate from the
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nature the nature means the world around
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you the only the species that we have on
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this planet our integral part of this
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what we call nature it cannot be
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separated from that but unfortunately
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through our thinking we have succeeded
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in separating ourselves and through the
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help of this knowledge we continue to
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maintain the continuity of the knowledge
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and and that is the reason why we have
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invented all this the integrity becoming
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one with
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nature and all that kind of thing and we
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are not going to succeed because we
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don't understand and realize what is it
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that separates you from the totality of
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things is the thought and the thought
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cannot be used to bring about an
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integral reality basically we are all
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integrally United and unfortunately
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through our thinking we have separated
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ourselves and we are acting from this
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point of separateness and it is this
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that is responsible for the chaos in
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your personal lives where we chaos in
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the world around you
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I am giving a talk but well you've
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certainly addressed many ideas and
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stimulated many thoughts in my mind
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maybe they passed through I don't know
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let's step back for a moment you you
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seem to have said that all that we know
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is by virtue of thought and yet we can't
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even no thought itself because every
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time we look at thought we don't see
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thought we just see thoughts about
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thought it's even the thought we are
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talking about is created by the
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knowledge that is given to us so the
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thought is a self-perpetuating mechanism
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and when I use the word self I don't use
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it in the sense in which we use used by
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the philosophers and metaphysicians like
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a smell starter or Auto fluctuation even
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it is not as see the body is not
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interested in that at all the actions of
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the body or responses to the stimuli and
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it has no separate independent existence
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of its own
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so unfortunately time is the one that
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has created the beginning and the end
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and it is interested in permanence
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whereas the functioning of the body is
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immortal in its own way because it has
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no beginning it has no beginning it is
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not born it so it has no depth you see
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so there is a depth to the thought but
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not to the body and I don't know if I
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make well let me try and paraphrase you
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seem to be suggesting a quite a fabric
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of many intertwine notions here and
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of them as that thought tends to
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perpetuate itself they does not want to
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come to an end the mind wishes the mind
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doesn't exist but even so it wishes to
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believe it is immortal it is a marked
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you know it is interested in creating an
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artificial immortality of an entity
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souls self or whatever you want to call
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it it knows in a way that it is coming
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to an end somewhere along the line and
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it's a survival and it's continuity it's
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status code depends upon the continuity
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of the body but body is not in any way
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involved with the thought because it has
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no beginning it has no end it is the
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thought that has created the two points
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see this is the birth and that is the
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dentist so our illusion that we have a
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mind is born out of fear not fear so we
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do not want the fear to come to a name
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because the end of the fear is the end
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of the thought if the thought comes to
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an end the body drops dead there what is
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left after that is something the body
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does not know for you I am alive and
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dead I am talking not I am alive and not
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dead because if I am responding to your
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questions I'm answering to your
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questions but there is nobody who is
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talking hmm there's no you there there
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is no there is nobody who is talking but
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there is only talking mm-hmm it's just
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like a tape recorder you see and you are
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playing with the tape recorder and for
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your own reasons and whatever comes out
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of that is what you want to hear from
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this tape recorder well you seem to be
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taking a position almost equivalent to
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that of the physicists who look at
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matter and they look at atoms and
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molecules and then particles and beneath
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particles into quarks and finally they
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say there's really nothing there you see
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one of these days the scientists will
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have to come true to the terms that they
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are quest to find out what they call the
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fundamental particle it is they don't
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realize that the fundamental particle
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does not exist and they are not ready to
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accept that and once they come to terms
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with that and accept that there is no
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such thing as
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fundamental particle and there is no
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such thing as Bank great big bank
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whatever they call it it is an exercise
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in futility they will continue to devil
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with that is you find out answers for
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the question only for their Nobel Prize
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but you were in it but you seem to be
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saying that the body exists that the
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brain exists and that nature exists but
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that has no beginning and no end that's
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all the time emphasizing mm-hmm so since
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the body is not born so it has no end
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see what well I I don't know when you
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say the body is not born that that seems
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to contradict it isn't talked to the
00:22:19
test created the body and established a
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point and says it's born here and it's
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going to end there so it is the thought
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that has created the time factor I mean
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what every cell was created from a
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previous cell even the egg we don't know
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the beginnings of a TC so the whole
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concept of the Creator is redundant we
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are caught up in the field of logical
00:22:45
thinking and that there is no beginning
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that there is no end
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it is something which shatters the whole
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fabric the foundation of our logical
00:22:57
thinking yes it does so we are not ready
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to accept that at all but I don't know
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if the notion of no beginning and no end
00:23:05
I can see how that might apply to time
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and space but not to the body of it its
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body you talk as if it is separate from
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the totality of the universe or totality
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of nature or whatever you want to call
00:23:18
it it is the thought that has created
00:23:20
the body a separate entity and tells
00:23:24
that this has a beginning this has no
00:23:26
end you see this is this is the end that
00:23:28
is the beginning which it is created li
00:23:30
the space so thought creates the space
00:23:33
thought creates the time so it cannot
00:23:37
conceive of the possibility of anything
00:23:39
outside the field of space and thought
00:23:41
actually thought is the one that has
00:23:44
created this space and experiences the
00:23:46
space but actually there is no such
00:23:49
thing as a space at all but what is
00:23:51
there is
00:23:52
space time energy continuum hmm it is a
00:23:57
continuum but it has no end you see the
00:24:00
thought cannot conceive with the
00:24:02
possibility of the movement without a
00:24:04
beginning and without the same point
00:24:06
where it is going to arrive somewhere
00:24:08
sometime you sleep so there is the
00:24:10
problem of the thought so its actions
00:24:14
are limited to its perpetuation its
00:24:16
continuity its permanence
00:24:18
but anything it says about anything it
00:24:21
tries to talk about deal with our
00:24:24
experience the body it cannot because
00:24:27
it's something living thought is
00:24:29
something dead you seem to be saying if
00:24:31
I can summarize your thoughts that we
00:24:33
are trapped in the prison of our own
00:24:35
thoughts and this prison creates the
00:24:38
illusion that we are separate that we
00:24:39
are not part of nature and yet the
00:24:41
prison itself is also an illusion the
00:24:44
prison also he is created by the thought
00:24:47
and that is the reason why it is trying
00:24:50
to get out of that trap it has created
00:24:53
by itself you know there is a simile
00:24:56
given in one of the scriptures in India
00:24:59
the dog who picks up a bone try bone
00:25:03
there is nothing there and then it bites
00:25:05
you see and the bone hurts the gums and
00:25:08
the blood comes out of it and the dog
00:25:11
believes imagines experiences fields
00:25:14
whatever word you want to use that the
00:25:17
blood which is coming out of its own
00:25:18
gums is from the bone so that is the
00:25:21
kind of trap in which the whole
00:25:24
structure of thinking is caught up and
00:25:27
it there's all the time to get out of
00:25:31
that you see the trap it has created
00:25:33
that's the human predicament is the
00:25:34
human mind
00:25:35
ug yes thank you very much for being
00:25:38
with me we're out of time now all right
00:25:39
thank you very much it's been a pleasure
00:25:41
thank you and thank you for being with
00:25:44
us
