98 Y.O. British Solider Reveals TRUTH about India’s Partition | James M. Neilson

00:54:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4jbUuE9DY

Ringkasan

TLDRL'interview aborde les récits d'un ancien soldat britannique qui a servi en Inde pendant l'indépendance du pays. Âgé de 98 ans, il partage ses expériences et perspectives sur la partition de l'Inde, qu'il attribue à Muhammad Ali Jinnah et à une précipitation de la Grande-Bretagne à quitter l'Inde. Il évoque ses conflits intérieurs en tant que jeune homme ayant appris à tuer en tant que soldat et son évolution vers la médecine pour sauver des vies. L'interviewé offre une perspective unique sur des événements historiques mais tragiques comme le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh, qu'il décrit comme une "terrible erreur". Il exprime aussi un grand respect pour Gandhi, Mandela, et Martin Luther King, et montre une grande admiration pour le rôle pacifique de Gandhi pendant la lutte pour l'indépendance. Quant à la partition de l'Inde, il critique la division rapide et sans subtilité décidée par les Britanniques et Jinnah, créant de nombreuses tensions entre l'Inde et le Pakistan qui perdurent, notamment au Cachemire. Il réfléchit également à la question de la couronne britannique et aux espoirs de voir des objets comme le diamant Kohinoor retournés à l'Inde. L'interview aborde des nuances personnelles, comme regretter des incidents violents auxquels il a dû prendre part pendant les émeutes, et finalement, il plaide pour la tolérance et le dialogue pour résoudre les conflits modernes, inspiré par sa transformation culturelle après son temps en Inde.

Takeaways

  • 🇮🇳 L'interviewé a servi en Inde pendant l'indépendance et a une perspective unique sur cette époque.
  • ❌ Il critique la partition de l'Inde comme étant précipitée par les Britanniques et Jinnah.
  • 🕊️ Admire profondément Gandhi pour sa philosophie de paix.
  • 💎 Le retour du Kohinoor est un sujet sensible mais peu probable, selon lui.
  • 🔫 Témoigne de son passage d'une mentalité militaire à une carrière médicale.
  • 🇵🇰 Évoque la complexité politique derrière la création du Pakistan.
  • ⚔️ Souligne le sentiment de sécurité ressenti en Inde malgré les circonstances.
  • 🗺️ Critique l'absence de frontières claires lors de la partition, causant les problèmes au Cachemire.
  • 🤝 Plaide pour la tolérance et le dialogue comme moyens de résoudre les conflits.
  • 🎓 Met en avant l'éducation comme outil d'évolution personnelle post-service militaire.

Garis waktu

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    La partition de l'Inde est un sujet de débat, avec la responsabilité partagée entre la Grande-Bretagne et Muhammad Ali Jinnah. L'Inde voulait son indépendance immédiate, mais la séparation rapide a laissé des problèmes comme le conflit au Cachemire. Subash Chandra Bose a aussi joué un rôle important avec son approche militaire distincte de celle de Gandhi.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    L'influence de l'Empire britannique sur les écoliers écossais est décrite, soulignant un sentiment de droit et l'importance du service à la couronne. Cela a guidé de nombreux jeunes hommes, comme l'interlocuteur, vers des carrières militaires.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale, l'interlocuteur s'engage dans l'armée indienne. Il raconte comment son éducation l'avait porté à croire à la supériorité britannique, mais ses interactions avec les soldats indiens ont changé ses perspectives, le rendant plus empathique envers leur culture et leurs compétences.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Une expérience en Birmanie où un médecin sauve un soldat indien blessé change profondément la perspective de l'interlocuteur sur la vie et la destruction, initiant sa transition d'une formation guerrière à une vocation de sauvetage.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Il parle de l'impact de Subash Chandra Bose et des divergences entre la vision pacifique de Gandhi et celle militaire de Bose. L'interlocuteur critique le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh par les Britanniques comme une grave erreur.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    L'attitude changeante de l'interlocuteur envers la domination britannique et son admiration grandissante pour Gandhi, dont la philosophie l’influence profondément. Il se remémore le climat après l'assassinat de Gandhi en 1948, voyant l'Inde se diriger vers l'autonomie.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Discussions sur la partition rapide et mal planifiée de l'Inde, blâmant à la fois la décision britannique précipitée et Jinnah pour le Pakistan séparé, ce qui a mené à des tensions durables comme celles au Cachemire.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    L'interlocuteur partage des sentiments mitigés sur la monarchie britannique, reconnaissant son rôle dans la culture et la politique britannique tout en questionnant sa pertinence moderne. Il loue la démocratie malgré ses défis.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Sentiments sur les relations internationales actuelles, exprimant des inquiétudes sur les politiques de leaders comme Donald Trump et leur impact potentiel sur la démocratie. Il exprime le besoin pressant de maintenir des alliances internationales.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:54:50

    L'interlocuteur termine avec une réflection personnelle sur la tolérance et la communication comme moyens de résolution de conflits, tout en reconnaissant des erreurs passées qu'il regrette. Son vécu en Inde l'a profondément transformé, le menant vers une carrière médicale pour sauver des vies plutôt que de les prendre.

Tampilkan lebih banyak

Peta Pikiran

Video Tanya Jawab

  • Ce podcast parle-t-il de l'histoire de l'indépendance de l'Inde ?

    Oui, la discussion couvre l'époque de l'Inde pré-indépendante et post-indépendante.

  • Qui est responsable de la partition de l'Inde, selon l'interviewé ?

    Il pense que la partition a été précipitée par la Grande-Bretagne et Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

  • Quel âge a l'interviewé et quelle est sa perspective ?

    Il a 98 ans et a une perspective de l'époque coloniale britannique en Inde.

  • Quelle était l'atmosphère en Inde après l'assassinat de Gandhi ?

    La situation était chaotique avec tensions et violence après la disparition de Gandhi.

  • Quelle est l'opinion de l'interviewé sur Mahatma Gandhi ?

    L'interviewé admire Gandhi pour son pacifisme et son leadership.

  • Quelle est l'opinion de l'interviewé sur Narendra Modi ?

    Il croit que Narendra Modi est préoccupé par l'avenir de l'Inde mais peut être autoritaire.

  • Est-ce que l'interviewé a rencontré Mahatma Gandhi ?

    Non, il n'a jamais rencontré Gandhi personnellement.

  • Comment l'interviewé décrit-il le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh ?

    Le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh est décrit comme une terrible erreur des Britanniques.

  • Quel a été le rôle de l'interviewé pendant son temps en Inde ?

    L'interviewé a servi en Inde et donne sa perspective sur les soldats indiens et la partition.

  • La question du retour du diamant Kohinoor est-elle discutée ?

    Oui, il adresse brièvement la question, mais n'apporte pas de réponses nouvelles.

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Gulir Otomatis:
  • 00:00:00
    who do you think is responsible for
  • 00:00:01
    India's partition Britain and Muhammad
  • 00:00:04
    Ali Jenna India wanted immedate
  • 00:00:06
    Independence Britain wanted immediately
  • 00:00:08
    out of India so the two came together
  • 00:00:10
    unfortunately it was done too quickly
  • 00:00:12
    for some
  • 00:00:14
    reason wanted a separate
  • 00:00:19
    Pakistan they would also left India in a
  • 00:00:23
    very bad situation instead of trying to
  • 00:00:25
    figure this out what are we going to do
  • 00:00:27
    who they just drew a line now look at
  • 00:00:30
    the problem in Kashmir today both
  • 00:00:32
    countries are fighting about all the
  • 00:00:34
    time
  • 00:00:38
    Hindustan
  • 00:00:40
    sik marata
  • 00:00:42
    Raj did you know anything about subash
  • 00:00:45
    chra Jihan J Massacre I think it was a a
  • 00:00:50
    dreadful Dreadful incident and a
  • 00:00:52
    terrible terrible mistake should never
  • 00:00:55
    have happened you want two things to
  • 00:00:57
    happen do I want I Liv 103 years old and
  • 00:01:00
    I want to see Donald Trump in jail when
  • 00:01:03
    are we getting the go you won't you
  • 00:01:05
    should but you won't anything about
  • 00:01:08
    Narendra Modi I think he is
  • 00:01:11
    um you can be honest I have to give a
  • 00:01:15
    lot to India for my whole being it was
  • 00:01:17
    India which changed me it made me grow
  • 00:01:19
    up grow up is there anything in your
  • 00:01:21
    life that you have regretted one of them
  • 00:01:24
    was again in
  • 00:01:27
    India I'm not short
  • 00:01:35
    Zab so this is one of the most rarest
  • 00:01:38
    moments of my life because I think
  • 00:01:41
    growing up we have read in history about
  • 00:01:44
    India struggle to Independence yes and
  • 00:01:47
    from the Freedom Fighters perspective
  • 00:01:49
    but for the first time people are going
  • 00:01:52
    to know from the British side of the
  • 00:01:54
    perspective as well somebody who was
  • 00:01:56
    there during the India's independence
  • 00:01:58
    and has seen the partition himself s so
  • 00:02:00
    I'm really very excited for this
  • 00:02:02
    conversation sir um before we get into
  • 00:02:06
    like all the details where did it start
  • 00:02:08
    and you know how did you see everything
  • 00:02:10
    unfold in front of your own eyes how old
  • 00:02:13
    are you I am in my 98 year 98 years yes
  • 00:02:20
    so pretty much what we are going to talk
  • 00:02:21
    about today is happened somewhere around
  • 00:02:24
    80 years ago mhm in your perspective yes
  • 00:02:27
    that's correct so can you take us back
  • 00:02:28
    like uh because you started well I can
  • 00:02:32
    take you back to my start in Scotland
  • 00:02:34
    yes I was born in Scotland and and
  • 00:02:36
    during the Depression and my father died
  • 00:02:39
    when I was very young what year was that
  • 00:02:43
    1926 27 okay and um my father died when
  • 00:02:47
    I was 2 years old so my mother was left
  • 00:02:50
    alone with myself my brother fortunately
  • 00:02:53
    her grandfather had been a bit ahead of
  • 00:02:54
    his time and had insisted that his
  • 00:02:57
    children the girls be educated as as
  • 00:02:59
    well as the boys so she was able to get
  • 00:03:02
    a good teaching position which was able
  • 00:03:04
    to sustain us during the Depression MH
  • 00:03:07
    um but at that time as you know Britain
  • 00:03:11
    was at the Zenith of its power it was
  • 00:03:13
    the world power of the time in the 1920s
  • 00:03:17
    1930s and I grew up with a very
  • 00:03:20
    different attitude then than I have now
  • 00:03:23
    for example when you went to school in
  • 00:03:26
    every classroom there was a huge big map
  • 00:03:29
    of the world and of course about half of
  • 00:03:31
    it was painted red Australia New Zealand
  • 00:03:34
    India Burma
  • 00:03:36
    Malaya all the islands in the Pacific
  • 00:03:39
    and the Mediterranean and so on so um in
  • 00:03:44
    front of the map was also a picture of
  • 00:03:46
    the King King George V F who was always
  • 00:03:49
    a little bit worried looking and dressed
  • 00:03:52
    in a magnificent uniform and his Queen
  • 00:03:55
    Mary was always very upright and stable
  • 00:03:57
    and stayed and sober so you knew with a
  • 00:04:00
    king you were adequately protected with
  • 00:04:02
    the queen you were morly protected and
  • 00:04:05
    beside them was a picture of Lord benen
  • 00:04:07
    Paul with a cross unions Jacks and so
  • 00:04:10
    you knew where honor and Duty lay your
  • 00:04:12
    duty was to the king in the country and
  • 00:04:14
    to Britain and of course at that time
  • 00:04:16
    growing up with that atmosphere you you
  • 00:04:19
    began to believe that the world was in
  • 00:04:22
    its correct British orbit yeah that's
  • 00:04:24
    the way it should be because we British
  • 00:04:27
    there somewhere felt Superior
  • 00:04:30
    a feeling to feel Superior well not a
  • 00:04:32
    feeling of superiority but a feeling of
  • 00:04:34
    entitlement entitlement entitlement we
  • 00:04:37
    We're British we own three quarters of
  • 00:04:39
    the world therefore we are entitled to
  • 00:04:41
    whatever we can do yeah that was a basic
  • 00:04:43
    attitude when you grew up as a child
  • 00:04:45
    yeah and of course uh unlike the
  • 00:04:48
    American children who are always God
  • 00:04:49
    blessing America and clutching the flag
  • 00:04:52
    and so on we did not do any of that but
  • 00:04:55
    it was much more invasive in a way more
  • 00:04:58
    pervasive because you kind of absorbed
  • 00:05:02
    it as you moved along it was with you
  • 00:05:04
    wherever you went your duty lay to the
  • 00:05:07
    king and the queen in the country and
  • 00:05:09
    and the Britain generally so you grew up
  • 00:05:11
    with that attitude all the way through
  • 00:05:13
    your life right and was that the reason
  • 00:05:16
    that also got you instigated towards
  • 00:05:19
    joining British Army well at that time
  • 00:05:22
    um I I wanted as a I mean a boy always
  • 00:05:26
    wants to be something active a policeman
  • 00:05:28
    a fireman a sold or whatever so I I
  • 00:05:31
    wanted to be a soldier at that time
  • 00:05:34
    growing up as a young boy how old were
  • 00:05:35
    you at that time well you know growing
  • 00:05:38
    up all the 1930s it was 14 12 13 14 you
  • 00:05:42
    know up till 1939 MH and of course um
  • 00:05:46
    the war came in 1939 and I was 13 or 14
  • 00:05:49
    years old and so at that time you felt
  • 00:05:53
    obligated to do something towards the
  • 00:05:56
    the the the war the war effort yeah so I
  • 00:06:01
    joined the the Army cadetes at that time
  • 00:06:04
    and of course you were therefore told
  • 00:06:06
    how to sh to shown how to shoot rifles
  • 00:06:09
    and throw grenades and shoot machine
  • 00:06:12
    guns and so on and so from the age of
  • 00:06:15
    about 13 on up till the age of 17 I was
  • 00:06:19
    in the Army cadetes being taught how how
  • 00:06:21
    to basically injure and kill people
  • 00:06:24
    that's what the the attitude at the time
  • 00:06:27
    was because you were in a war of of
  • 00:06:30
    survival right and um when I was at
  • 00:06:33
    school by the age of um
  • 00:06:37
    16 there was an officer from the Indian
  • 00:06:39
    army came around all the major schools
  • 00:06:41
    in Britain to try to get young men to
  • 00:06:44
    join the Indian army and I thought at
  • 00:06:47
    that time I was 16 and a half I thought
  • 00:06:49
    my this is a great opportunity I will
  • 00:06:52
    volunteer to join the Indian army MH and
  • 00:06:55
    of course you must understand I had been
  • 00:06:57
    brought up with the attitude of ruad K
  • 00:07:00
    with all the jingoistic poems and
  • 00:07:02
    stories of Kim and and Jungle Book and
  • 00:07:05
    all the rest of it and so you had a firm
  • 00:07:08
    belief in the rightness of things
  • 00:07:11
    British um so when he came around and
  • 00:07:15
    and and made this suggestion to try to
  • 00:07:17
    join the Indian army I I thought this is
  • 00:07:19
    a great idea mhm so which I
  • 00:07:22
    did I was taken to London I was
  • 00:07:24
    interviewed in London I spent a week
  • 00:07:26
    down there where you had to set
  • 00:07:28
    examinations you you were physically
  • 00:07:30
    examined you were given intelligence
  • 00:07:32
    tests and all the rest of it and then
  • 00:07:34
    the decision was made whether you were
  • 00:07:36
    accepted as a Cadet into the Indian army
  • 00:07:38
    or not okay and fortunately I managed to
  • 00:07:41
    pass that but I left school before I sat
  • 00:07:45
    the final leaving examination so I had
  • 00:07:49
    no uh academic
  • 00:07:51
    qualifications other than what I already
  • 00:07:54
    had but I had no official qualifications
  • 00:07:57
    when I left school
  • 00:07:59
    and um I was then taken into the British
  • 00:08:02
    army initially for the first few months
  • 00:08:04
    of training and then sent to India in
  • 00:08:07
    early
  • 00:08:08
    1944 to Bangalore to the officer Cadet
  • 00:08:12
    training school in Bangalore and how old
  • 00:08:14
    were you when you landed in I was 17
  • 00:08:17
    years old 17 years old 17 and a half
  • 00:08:20
    years old yes amazing when I when I
  • 00:08:22
    landed in India that's right I was
  • 00:08:24
    commissioned by the age of
  • 00:08:26
    18 uh uh to the sixth gr arrival
  • 00:08:30
    mhm and as you know at that time in
  • 00:08:32
    India there were many different um
  • 00:08:34
    regiments of different
  • 00:08:36
    peoples I'll try and speak in uru for a
  • 00:08:40
    little Hindustan
  • 00:08:43
    Hindustan
  • 00:08:46
    um
  • 00:08:50
    mik marata
  • 00:08:53
    rajut is the
  • 00:08:57
    uh um pton
  • 00:09:02
    ponon
  • 00:09:05
    M they spoke their own language spoke
  • 00:09:07
    their own
  • 00:09:19
    language
  • 00:09:22
    okay that's when you started learning
  • 00:09:24
    uru that's exactly you had to learn the
  • 00:09:27
    one language because all the different
  • 00:09:30
    anybody can understand yeah that's right
  • 00:09:32
    every different regiment spoke different
  • 00:09:33
    languages right so they had to have one
  • 00:09:36
    language which they all spoke and that
  • 00:09:38
    was U and that was uru so when you
  • 00:09:42
    graduated as an officer you had to pass
  • 00:09:44
    the examination U and at that time
  • 00:09:52
    um I'm pretty sure you're speaking
  • 00:09:55
    better than L AB be Mir would do
  • 00:10:06
    um AA or asan aanan is like it's not
  • 00:10:11
    complex is not asan asan means simple
  • 00:10:17
    oh see the words that you're saying even
  • 00:10:19
    I don't know the meaning of
  • 00:10:21
    that difficult difficult yeah
  • 00:10:27
    difficult that is Maybe because you're
  • 00:10:29
    not speaking regularly which which we
  • 00:10:31
    were talking okay so we stop no no you
  • 00:10:33
    can speak anytime in between because I
  • 00:10:35
    love it the way that but it's not you
  • 00:10:37
    must it's not very good now but a sal
  • 00:10:40
    sal yeah yeah okay so how was it working
  • 00:10:43
    along with other Indian soldiers well
  • 00:10:47
    what what you've got to realize um when
  • 00:10:50
    you go with this attitude of not
  • 00:10:53
    superior but entitlement and an agree of
  • 00:10:55
    degree of
  • 00:10:57
    superiority you look upon people
  • 00:10:59
    differently so you don't actually you
  • 00:11:02
    don't look down on them but you look
  • 00:11:04
    them as being a little bit different
  • 00:11:06
    different kind of like the Indian cast
  • 00:11:09
    system where you're all human beings but
  • 00:11:13
    you treat it differently you're treated
  • 00:11:16
    exactly so in a kind of a way that was
  • 00:11:19
    the attitude of the British officer at
  • 00:11:21
    the
  • 00:11:22
    time but once you got to the regiment
  • 00:11:25
    you began to
  • 00:11:27
    realize that people were very similar to
  • 00:11:31
    yourself they were very very good people
  • 00:11:34
    they were excellent Soldiers the Indian
  • 00:11:37
    soldier was an excellent Soldier and
  • 00:11:39
    that's my honest
  • 00:11:41
    opinion um so as you as you developed
  • 00:11:46
    you began to realize that this this
  • 00:11:49
    difference in superiority did not really
  • 00:11:52
    truly exist mhm and um in a way though
  • 00:11:57
    there was a great deal of respect
  • 00:11:59
    between the British officer and the
  • 00:12:02
    Indian soldier mhm and vice versa there
  • 00:12:05
    was a great respect from the Indian
  • 00:12:07
    soldier to the British officer so there
  • 00:12:10
    was a communion of spirit in the whole
  • 00:12:12
    Army shall we say which was unique did
  • 00:12:16
    that change your perspective about India
  • 00:12:18
    it changed my perspective totally from
  • 00:12:22
    my initial attitude of
  • 00:12:24
    superiority to one of equinity and E
  • 00:12:29
    evenness when you were working alongside
  • 00:12:31
    other when I was working particularly
  • 00:12:33
    with Indian soldiers I began to realize
  • 00:12:36
    these these people were very good people
  • 00:12:40
    were very um excellent in all the things
  • 00:12:44
    that they did and so my attitude changed
  • 00:12:46
    remarkably over time but you must
  • 00:12:49
    realize I was I went to India as a very
  • 00:12:52
    young man my my
  • 00:12:55
    Jaan so as a young man you're more
  • 00:12:58
    interested in in immediate
  • 00:13:01
    gratifications you know parties and
  • 00:13:04
    whatnot but it takes a little time for
  • 00:13:08
    the cultures of India the many different
  • 00:13:11
    cultures to sort of seep in and begin to
  • 00:13:14
    change you and so it took really the
  • 00:13:17
    four years that I was in India before I
  • 00:13:19
    began to realize just how profound the
  • 00:13:22
    country was can you um State any kind of
  • 00:13:26
    a story or an experience which made a
  • 00:13:28
    big impact in your life life related to
  • 00:13:31
    what you were doing and that changed
  • 00:13:32
    your perspective altogether during the
  • 00:13:34
    latter part of the war I was in Burma
  • 00:13:37
    fortunately I missed most of the war I
  • 00:13:38
    only got into the very end of it okay
  • 00:13:41
    and the the enemy dman Japan yeah B Bame
  • 00:13:47
    so actually um May mhm now when I was
  • 00:13:53
    there we were stationed beside um a
  • 00:13:56
    field hospital I was in the Infantry but
  • 00:13:59
    the the field hospital was stationed
  • 00:14:01
    near us and some of the doctors came to
  • 00:14:03
    eat with us and one of them said would
  • 00:14:06
    you like to come and watch an
  • 00:14:08
    operation so I thought well what the
  • 00:14:11
    hell nothing to lose I'll go and I went
  • 00:14:14
    and watched uh there was an Indian
  • 00:14:16
    soldier who had been shot in the head
  • 00:14:18
    and this um he was a neurosurgeon was
  • 00:14:21
    operating on him to take the bullet out
  • 00:14:25
    and for the first time in my life
  • 00:14:29
    I began to realize I had been taught
  • 00:14:32
    from the age of 13 up until now how to
  • 00:14:35
    kill and injure people and here was a
  • 00:14:39
    man who was doing exactly the opposite
  • 00:14:42
    he was being he had been trained how to
  • 00:14:45
    save people now it didn't hit like a
  • 00:14:48
    bullet it didn't just suddenly say oh
  • 00:14:50
    this is wonderful but somehow or another
  • 00:14:52
    it filtered into my
  • 00:14:54
    personality that there's other ways of
  • 00:14:57
    living rather than this
  • 00:15:00
    total attitude towards Warfare so that
  • 00:15:03
    was one of the experiences I did have
  • 00:15:06
    and especially like I think U the war
  • 00:15:09
    which happened in Burma was one of the
  • 00:15:12
    biggest challenges and also like Indian
  • 00:15:14
    soldiers performed very well during that
  • 00:15:16
    the Indian soldier was the main
  • 00:15:17
    background of the Army in in BMA at that
  • 00:15:20
    time under General slim and most of the
  • 00:15:24
    soldiers were Indian right there were
  • 00:15:26
    some British soldiers but mainly it was
  • 00:15:28
    Indian like in fact there were 2.5
  • 00:15:30
    million Indian soldiers exactly there
  • 00:15:32
    were 2.5 million Indian soldiers that's
  • 00:15:34
    right and there was also mind you the
  • 00:15:36
    Indian national Army under sub Chandra
  • 00:15:39
    BOS you know that one of this is one of
  • 00:15:42
    the most asked question by the audience
  • 00:15:44
    before coming before doing this podcast
  • 00:15:47
    you know what I usually do I go to my
  • 00:15:49
    Instagram stories and I ask people what
  • 00:15:52
    one question do you want me to ask guest
  • 00:15:54
    today and the most question was about
  • 00:15:58
    did you know anything about subash
  • 00:16:00
    Chandra BOS
  • 00:16:02
    Jan May um subat Chandra BOS had been in
  • 00:16:07
    the British AR had been in the Indian
  • 00:16:09
    army had been captured by the Japanese
  • 00:16:12
    and he changed his allegiance to try to
  • 00:16:15
    get Indian independence understandably
  • 00:16:19
    so there were two sort of Indian armies
  • 00:16:22
    as it were there was the Indian army
  • 00:16:24
    controlled by the British and owed
  • 00:16:28
    allegiance to the British and then there
  • 00:16:29
    was a few Indian soldiers who had been
  • 00:16:31
    captured who had transferred their
  • 00:16:33
    allegiance to sub Chandra BOS who was in
  • 00:16:36
    charge of the Indian national army
  • 00:16:39
    fighting against the British yes so yes
  • 00:16:42
    that that was fact yeah so and also
  • 00:16:45
    there were a lot of uh like there were
  • 00:16:47
    two sides of the coin because at one
  • 00:16:49
    side there were Mahatma Gandhi uh jarad
  • 00:16:53
    Neu who believed in nonviolence yes who
  • 00:16:55
    believed in that you know by peaceful
  • 00:16:57
    protest you will be ble to get freedom
  • 00:17:00
    from British on the other side there
  • 00:17:02
    were a different set of uh like you know
  • 00:17:05
    thoughts where subash Chandra BOS was
  • 00:17:07
    the leader where he said that you know
  • 00:17:09
    youve got to get what's yours that's
  • 00:17:11
    right so did you see these two oh yes we
  • 00:17:14
    you came across that quite frequently uh
  • 00:17:17
    particularly after after the end of the
  • 00:17:19
    war when India was trying desperately
  • 00:17:23
    for its
  • 00:17:24
    independence and um there was um Mahatma
  • 00:17:27
    Gandhi pundit jawahar L neru and
  • 00:17:31
    Muhammad alaj Jena who was who was a
  • 00:17:33
    Muslim now initially when India wanted
  • 00:17:37
    its independence from the 1920s onwards
  • 00:17:41
    these had been the three major
  • 00:17:43
    players and they wanted a unified India
  • 00:17:47
    at that time they wanted the whole of
  • 00:17:49
    India to be unified uh just one small
  • 00:17:52
    incident I would like to bring in the
  • 00:17:54
    notice that you know during 1920s and
  • 00:17:56
    during 1990s you probably might have
  • 00:17:58
    heard about Jalan Wala Massacre mhm yes
  • 00:18:01
    that was amitz Massacre yes yeah 1927 it
  • 00:18:05
    was a peaceful um crowd Gathering which
  • 00:18:07
    was happening do you know anything about
  • 00:18:10
    how General D did that that was a
  • 00:18:12
    terrible terrible terrible blot in the
  • 00:18:15
    and in the whole of the the British
  • 00:18:18
    interest in India and that was one of
  • 00:18:20
    the major you know instigations by a lot
  • 00:18:22
    of Freedom Fighters like maybe you've
  • 00:18:25
    maybe you came a little later to um to
  • 00:18:28
    India which was in 199 1944 but there is
  • 00:18:32
    one of the biggest Freedom Fighter by
  • 00:18:34
    the name of bhagat Singh yeah who was
  • 00:18:37
    hung hanged by the British yeah bhagat
  • 00:18:40
    Singh Raj Guru and Su exactly they were
  • 00:18:42
    all three and they were in early 20s
  • 00:18:43
    that's right and they were hang by the
  • 00:18:45
    British yeah I know I I know that now I
  • 00:18:48
    remember in Ran mask was 1927 yeah what
  • 00:18:51
    is your view point about that like do
  • 00:18:53
    you think it was UN I think it was a a
  • 00:18:56
    dreadful Dreadful incident and a
  • 00:18:58
    terrible terrible mistake should never
  • 00:19:00
    have happened the people were peaceful
  • 00:19:03
    they were trying to
  • 00:19:06
    get independence in by peaceful means
  • 00:19:10
    and the Army was brought in and shot
  • 00:19:12
    them I know that it was it was a
  • 00:19:15
    dreadful incident and also we have heard
  • 00:19:16
    a lot of not heard like obviously we
  • 00:19:18
    know that you know um sorry to say this
  • 00:19:22
    but British people treated Indians very
  • 00:19:27
    badly and um they they were like even
  • 00:19:32
    outside the theaters we they were like
  • 00:19:35
    Holdings which could say that you know
  • 00:19:37
    dogs and Indians are not allowed so this
  • 00:19:40
    treatment what is your perspective did
  • 00:19:42
    you see anything at the time in front of
  • 00:19:44
    your own eyes happening like that yes
  • 00:19:47
    that did happen and again it was part of
  • 00:19:50
    the attitude of the times that's what
  • 00:19:52
    I'm saying when I went to India with
  • 00:19:54
    this kind of attitude but how it changed
  • 00:19:57
    as I was in India for the four years I
  • 00:20:00
    began to realize how wrong it was and
  • 00:20:04
    the attitudes of the people were so
  • 00:20:06
    wrong at the time and um my I I'll tell
  • 00:20:10
    you something my my three major heroes
  • 00:20:12
    in life who they are Mahatma Gandhi um
  • 00:20:17
    Nelson
  • 00:20:18
    Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr all
  • 00:20:22
    black or brown so that's why my attitude
  • 00:20:27
    had changed completely four years I was
  • 00:20:29
    in India did you ever get an opportunity
  • 00:20:31
    to meet Mahatma Gandhi or no I wish I
  • 00:20:33
    had but no I didn't but did you see them
  • 00:20:35
    oh I've seen them I saw them passing in
  • 00:20:37
    a car once with bohamad Ali J no no not
  • 00:20:41
    Jenna with with pundit neru and and
  • 00:20:44
    Gandy in the car but they it was just
  • 00:20:46
    going past that was all which year do
  • 00:20:49
    you know do you remember which year was
  • 00:20:50
    that no I can't remember no it must have
  • 00:20:52
    been
  • 00:20:55
    1946 something like that I can't
  • 00:20:57
    remember and so there is a lot of
  • 00:21:00
    conspiracy about subash Chandra BOS as
  • 00:21:03
    well that uh I think his body was never
  • 00:21:07
    found in a plane crash that happened do
  • 00:21:08
    you have any idea I don't know I don't
  • 00:21:10
    know about that so that was a big uh
  • 00:21:13
    that was a big one of the biggest uh
  • 00:21:16
    controversies and still like people
  • 00:21:18
    haven't been able to find what is the
  • 00:21:19
    reality behind it and they said that you
  • 00:21:21
    know there could be some you mean
  • 00:21:23
    whether he was deliberately killed yeah
  • 00:21:25
    well it's possible it takes your time in
  • 00:21:28
    a association with the different peoples
  • 00:21:30
    of India to realize they were quite
  • 00:21:33
    justified in what they were demanding
  • 00:21:35
    and had been demanding for many years
  • 00:21:37
    the British had no right to be there
  • 00:21:38
    yeah but that was just maybe um that you
  • 00:21:42
    had to learn by actually going there and
  • 00:21:45
    having to look at the things you had
  • 00:21:47
    toow to actually go there and I was
  • 00:21:49
    fortunate not only going there but I had
  • 00:21:51
    intimate relationships with Indian
  • 00:21:54
    soldiers all the time dealing with who
  • 00:21:56
    who did you find the most uh L Vibes
  • 00:21:59
    with is it the most
  • 00:22:03
    friendly I think I I you know this is an
  • 00:22:06
    interesting thing the whole time I was
  • 00:22:08
    in India I never once felt
  • 00:22:11
    threatened never once I I traveled
  • 00:22:14
    throughout the whole of India and
  • 00:22:16
    sometimes alone I never at any point
  • 00:22:18
    felt threatened and to this day I
  • 00:22:21
    sometimes wonder about I should have
  • 00:22:23
    felt threatened because why would they
  • 00:22:25
    not dislike me you know why would they
  • 00:22:28
    not try to do something to injure me but
  • 00:22:31
    never ever did I feel threatened never
  • 00:22:34
    once and that was that's always it's
  • 00:22:37
    always stuck in my mind that way and you
  • 00:22:39
    know the other interesting thing I'm
  • 00:22:41
    somewhat amazed
  • 00:22:43
    sometimes how little
  • 00:22:46
    animosity that the Indian people
  • 00:22:50
    actually had towards the British they
  • 00:22:53
    voiced a lot of opinions but there was
  • 00:22:56
    no real hate in Anger which used to
  • 00:23:00
    amaze me also and yet I kind of
  • 00:23:04
    understand it because Gandhi g himself
  • 00:23:06
    said we have traveled a long way with
  • 00:23:08
    the British now let's leave it that way
  • 00:23:12
    in other words don't
  • 00:23:13
    fight don't be angry don't hurt yeah and
  • 00:23:19
    that was his his whole way of doing
  • 00:23:22
    things right yeah what was uh your what
  • 00:23:25
    is your honest opinion about the crown
  • 00:23:28
    itself the crown yeah well I have two
  • 00:23:31
    mixed feelings about that okay um
  • 00:23:34
    because you see in
  • 00:23:36
    Britain every Everything of note owes
  • 00:23:40
    allegiance to the crown the Army the
  • 00:23:43
    Navy the Air Force the police the
  • 00:23:46
    lawyers the professors in the
  • 00:23:48
    universities they're all regious
  • 00:23:50
    professors appointed by the crown so you
  • 00:23:53
    owe allegiance to the crown you do not
  • 00:23:55
    owe allegiance to a political party you
  • 00:23:57
    owe Allegiance to the crown the crown
  • 00:24:00
    being the supreme leader of that country
  • 00:24:04
    yeah so therefore you have this supreme
  • 00:24:08
    leader who has no political power
  • 00:24:12
    actually but
  • 00:24:14
    controls emotionally yeah everyone
  • 00:24:18
    else and in a way has a final say before
  • 00:24:22
    they sign a document they could refuse
  • 00:24:24
    to sign the document now if the if the
  • 00:24:28
    queen the king refused to sign a
  • 00:24:30
    document people would say my God why is
  • 00:24:34
    that what's happened what's so wrong
  • 00:24:35
    with it that there's not signing it so
  • 00:24:39
    in a way it's a final protection against
  • 00:24:43
    autocracy and communism to have one
  • 00:24:46
    person who can say no it's not good but
  • 00:24:51
    on the other hand should some one person
  • 00:24:54
    be in control of of the whole thing no
  • 00:24:57
    they shouldn't so I I've get SP feelings
  • 00:25:00
    about it I understand I understand the
  • 00:25:04
    good part of it what is the good part
  • 00:25:06
    the good part is that it's the final
  • 00:25:08
    protection against autocracy because
  • 00:25:11
    they can refuse to sign the document if
  • 00:25:13
    if if a if a communist or an autocratic
  • 00:25:17
    Parliament brought a document to the
  • 00:25:19
    queen or the king and said you must sign
  • 00:25:21
    that and if he said no I am not signing
  • 00:25:25
    it the people would wonder why they
  • 00:25:27
    would say what the hell is wrong with it
  • 00:25:30
    so it's a protection against final
  • 00:25:32
    autocracy that's why I like it but on
  • 00:25:35
    the other hand I don't like it because
  • 00:25:37
    of the superiority attitude of it yeah
  • 00:25:41
    but do you think like in a um world like
  • 00:25:44
    today Crown autocracy these kind of
  • 00:25:49
    things or democracy I believe in
  • 00:25:50
    democracy but I don't believe in ocracy
  • 00:25:53
    and I'm kind of dubious about the crown
  • 00:25:56
    so you have mixed feelings about the
  • 00:25:57
    crown feelings no mix feelings about
  • 00:26:00
    democracy and autocracy have no doubt
  • 00:26:02
    about that
  • 00:26:05
    yeah okay so uh something that you
  • 00:26:08
    remember from your experience about the
  • 00:26:10
    things that happened during uh during
  • 00:26:13
    the freedom fight by m Mahatma Gandhi or
  • 00:26:16
    Muhammad jenha well um as you know
  • 00:26:21
    after I don't know where to quite begin
  • 00:26:23
    with this you see unfortunately India
  • 00:26:27
    was wanting it Independence immediately
  • 00:26:29
    after the war
  • 00:26:32
    understandably the British government
  • 00:26:34
    wanted to get the hell out of Bendy as
  • 00:26:36
    fast as it could because because they
  • 00:26:39
    were poor the war had finished they were
  • 00:26:41
    losing money hand over fist the country
  • 00:26:45
    was
  • 00:26:45
    destitute and they realized you could
  • 00:26:49
    not control a country like India unless
  • 00:26:52
    you had massive amounts of soldiers
  • 00:26:54
    there to control the population well
  • 00:26:57
    they couldn't do this yeah after the war
  • 00:26:59
    all the soldiers were going home and
  • 00:27:02
    they were not prepared to to keep on
  • 00:27:06
    trying to control India so they wanted
  • 00:27:09
    to get the hell out as fast as they
  • 00:27:11
    could yeah but they would also left
  • 00:27:14
    India in a very bad situation exactly
  • 00:27:17
    that's what I'm coming that's exactly
  • 00:27:19
    what I'm coming to just like to add a
  • 00:27:20
    little like even during the World War
  • 00:27:22
    second and uh when the famine happened
  • 00:27:26
    like we talked about you know 3 million
  • 00:27:27
    people died over there but the most of
  • 00:27:30
    the food supplies actually were given to
  • 00:27:33
    the British soldiers during that time
  • 00:27:36
    probably quite the priority was based on
  • 00:27:38
    you know who deserves to eat that's
  • 00:27:40
    right oh yeah I I I I I believe that's
  • 00:27:43
    probably quite true yeah so they
  • 00:27:45
    completely left India out of any
  • 00:27:47
    resources during that time and then they
  • 00:27:48
    were like oh we don't have anything else
  • 00:27:50
    to yes no I I I do understand that and I
  • 00:27:52
    know that did happen but you see to to
  • 00:27:56
    go back to the business of of the
  • 00:27:58
    dependence um understandably India
  • 00:28:01
    wanted immediate Independence Britain
  • 00:28:04
    wanted immediately out of India so the
  • 00:28:06
    two came together unfortunately it was
  • 00:28:08
    done too quickly and the people
  • 00:28:11
    I let's go back a little bit at one time
  • 00:28:14
    Muhammad Ali Jenna Gandhi and pundit
  • 00:28:17
    nahal ALU wanted a unified India now
  • 00:28:21
    towards the end for some reason Muhammad
  • 00:28:24
    Ali Jenna wanted a separate Pakistan can
  • 00:28:28
    I add a question over here yeah who do
  • 00:28:30
    you think is responsible for India's
  • 00:28:33
    partition Britain and Muhammad Ali Jenna
  • 00:28:37
    these two because Gandhi and neru still
  • 00:28:42
    wanted a total India the whole country
  • 00:28:46
    they even offered Muhammad Ali Jen to be
  • 00:28:49
    the first Prime Minister of India when
  • 00:28:52
    Independence was really was proclaimed
  • 00:28:55
    and he
  • 00:28:56
    refused he wanted an independent
  • 00:28:59
    Pakistan for some reason and that
  • 00:29:01
    changed much changed the attitude that
  • 00:29:04
    changed the attitude between Jenna and
  • 00:29:06
    Gandhi and neru initially they had been
  • 00:29:09
    great friends and Jenna suddenly sort of
  • 00:29:12
    flipped over flipped over to the side
  • 00:29:16
    and what then happened was the fault of
  • 00:29:19
    the
  • 00:29:20
    British instead of taking time to
  • 00:29:24
    recognize necessary boundaries which
  • 00:29:26
    should occur between the two countries
  • 00:29:29
    they just drew a line for example
  • 00:29:32
    Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu ruler yet
  • 00:29:36
    the majority of the population were
  • 00:29:39
    Muslim so instead of trying to figure
  • 00:29:42
    this out what are we going to do who
  • 00:29:44
    they just drew a line now look at the
  • 00:29:46
    problem in Kashmir today both countries
  • 00:29:49
    are fighting about all the time that's
  • 00:29:52
    the reason
  • 00:29:53
    why um Punjab is another good example
  • 00:29:58
    the siks live in Punjab yeah the the
  • 00:30:02
    very place where your leader of Sikhism
  • 00:30:04
    was born is now in Pakistan yeah and yet
  • 00:30:08
    your golden temple is amiter you know so
  • 00:30:11
    tell me tell me that a line should have
  • 00:30:13
    been drawn down there it should have
  • 00:30:14
    been done that way or this way one or
  • 00:30:17
    the other now you see to me that was it
  • 00:30:20
    was deliberate it was a deliberate
  • 00:30:22
    policy to get rid of this as fast and as
  • 00:30:25
    quickly as possible and also like
  • 00:30:26
    deliberator it is also one of the
  • 00:30:29
    strategies of britishers like what they
  • 00:30:31
    call is divide and Rule oh yeah yeah
  • 00:30:33
    well
  • 00:30:34
    that's how that yeah that's right that
  • 00:30:38
    that's how they did the whole empire all
  • 00:30:40
    the way through the centuries divid and
  • 00:30:42
    Rule yeah absolutely just with one
  • 00:30:45
    decision that they took you know 80
  • 00:30:46
    years ago and still people are fighting
  • 00:30:49
    and the countries are fighting the whole
  • 00:30:51
    country but it wasn't just the British
  • 00:30:53
    it was it was Muhammad Ali Jenna as well
  • 00:30:57
    and he he was The Pusher for it I blame
  • 00:31:01
    him be because I mean Gandhi and gandi
  • 00:31:06
    in particular was a
  • 00:31:08
    nonviolent man of Peace what is your
  • 00:31:10
    Viewpoint about Mahatma Gandhi Mahatma
  • 00:31:13
    Gandhi I have great admiration for him I
  • 00:31:15
    mean he was a man who was well educated
  • 00:31:18
    came from a good background had all the
  • 00:31:21
    possibility to live a a life of
  • 00:31:24
    affluence and whatever instead he
  • 00:31:26
    devoted his life to what Indian
  • 00:31:30
    independence is one thing and not only
  • 00:31:33
    Independence but with peace and security
  • 00:31:37
    for everyone do you think Mahatma Gandhi
  • 00:31:39
    was also politically aligned and
  • 00:31:42
    collaborated in with britishers in some
  • 00:31:45
    way
  • 00:31:48
    um no only in so far as he wanted he
  • 00:31:51
    wanted Independence he would go along
  • 00:31:53
    with various things in order to get
  • 00:31:55
    independence but I don't think he was
  • 00:31:57
    igned with the British no and what about
  • 00:32:00
    uh jar Neu jawahar neru another Highly
  • 00:32:03
    Educated very intelligent man who
  • 00:32:10
    um I don't think he was I don't think he
  • 00:32:13
    was uh I think he was more
  • 00:32:16
    politically he was more politic
  • 00:32:19
    politically cons politically
  • 00:32:21
    concerned than Gandhi W Gandhi was more
  • 00:32:24
    emotionally concerned and Psych
  • 00:32:27
    logically
  • 00:32:29
    and his whole soul was concerned in it
  • 00:32:32
    Muhammad Ali
  • 00:32:34
    Jenna um was for Pakistan pundit jawahar
  • 00:32:38
    L neru was very politically inclined but
  • 00:32:41
    why do you think Mahatma Gandhi was
  • 00:32:43
    later assassinated because it was some
  • 00:32:47
    some absolute um fanatical
  • 00:32:51
    idiot who thought that M that Gandhi had
  • 00:32:55
    betrayed them I don't I don't know why I
  • 00:32:58
    I really don't know why I don't know why
  • 00:33:00
    it happen you know had a Muslim shot him
  • 00:33:03
    or maybe even a seik shot him I might
  • 00:33:07
    have understood that but I think it was
  • 00:33:08
    a Hindu who shot
  • 00:33:10
    him I can't be pardon natam God was that
  • 00:33:15
    who it was and was he a Hindu he was a
  • 00:33:17
    Hindu yeah there you go now see I never
  • 00:33:19
    quite understood that yeah what what do
  • 00:33:22
    you think yeah it is very yeah I would
  • 00:33:25
    have understood if it is because of the
  • 00:33:27
    partition I think and also like
  • 00:33:30
    partition between India and Pakistan I
  • 00:33:31
    would understand that that could be the
  • 00:33:33
    reason why did they let that happen so I
  • 00:33:38
    could understand the animosity from the
  • 00:33:40
    Muslim side of the yeah if a Muslim sh
  • 00:33:43
    him I could understand that that's right
  • 00:33:45
    yeah but a Hindu shooting him I couldn't
  • 00:33:48
    understand that it's a tragedy that when
  • 00:33:49
    you think about it that you know um well
  • 00:33:52
    I think it changed the whole
  • 00:33:54
    country yeah I I think when Gandhi died
  • 00:33:56
    it changed the whole country yes it
  • 00:33:58
    totally did the the attitudes began to
  • 00:34:01
    change yeah that's right yeah so when
  • 00:34:05
    were when did you leave India in
  • 00:34:08
    1948 after Independence so so you have
  • 00:34:11
    seen
  • 00:34:12
    India's fight with like during India's
  • 00:34:15
    independence you have seen that what
  • 00:34:16
    happened before the partition happened
  • 00:34:19
    during the partition then around in 1948
  • 00:34:21
    I think in uh was it in January where
  • 00:34:27
    where they there was a another battle
  • 00:34:30
    between India and Pakistan well I left
  • 00:34:33
    in U see March or April of 1948 so I was
  • 00:34:37
    there in January yeah well there was a
  • 00:34:39
    lot of trouble between you know no no
  • 00:34:42
    actually I think in January um Mahatma
  • 00:34:45
    Gandhi was assassinated oh yeah that's
  • 00:34:47
    right yes that's right he was I think he
  • 00:34:49
    was assassinated on 30th January or
  • 00:34:51
    somewh yeah that's right can you can you
  • 00:34:54
    check if that's right I'm sure it was
  • 00:34:56
    30th January yeah yeah so 30th January
  • 00:34:58
    he was
  • 00:35:00
    assassinated so how was the where were
  • 00:35:03
    you during that time I honestly cannot
  • 00:35:06
    remember in beginning of 1940 oh I know
  • 00:35:10
    I was yes I was in Madras at that time I
  • 00:35:13
    was down in Southern India at that time
  • 00:35:16
    how was the um situation during that
  • 00:35:19
    time when Gandhi Mahatma Gandhi got
  • 00:35:22
    assassinated what were people feeling
  • 00:35:24
    during that time well Independence had
  • 00:35:26
    already been achieved D so that was one
  • 00:35:29
    thing that was the good side the bad
  • 00:35:33
    side was with his
  • 00:35:35
    assassination a lot of the
  • 00:35:38
    um calmness disappeared you know in
  • 00:35:41
    other words he had been a he had been a
  • 00:35:44
    a profound influence on on calming any
  • 00:35:47
    kind of animosities there was even one
  • 00:35:50
    time he went on a on a hunger stripe to
  • 00:35:53
    stop the rioting which was occurring in
  • 00:35:56
    Kolkata at that time if I remember and
  • 00:35:59
    he went on a hunger strike to death he
  • 00:36:03
    was going to die unless unless it
  • 00:36:06
    stopped and it did stop so he was very
  • 00:36:10
    successful in using his behavior
  • 00:36:14
    patterns to control situations but it
  • 00:36:17
    could it got out of his control
  • 00:36:21
    politically it became a political entity
  • 00:36:23
    no longer no longer a feeling from the
  • 00:36:26
    heart but more from from the mind the
  • 00:36:30
    Mind politically politically yeah so uh
  • 00:36:33
    you told me one incident just before
  • 00:36:36
    this you were telling me that U when you
  • 00:36:39
    saw a dead body being like a person
  • 00:36:40
    being treated on the that changed a lot
  • 00:36:44
    of perspective for you did change my
  • 00:36:45
    attitude yeah and after serving as a
  • 00:36:50
    soldier what did you do in your career
  • 00:36:52
    later on after I after I left India yeah
  • 00:36:56
    well I came back to Britain and I as I
  • 00:36:58
    told you earlier I had not passed the
  • 00:37:01
    final Examination for leaving school mhm
  • 00:37:04
    which in Scotland was called the school
  • 00:37:06
    school higher leaving certificate now
  • 00:37:08
    you in order to get any further training
  • 00:37:10
    in University or anywhere else you had
  • 00:37:12
    to have your higher leaving certificate
  • 00:37:15
    I didn't have it so I was stuck what the
  • 00:37:18
    hell am I going to do fortunately in
  • 00:37:21
    Scotland at that time you could sit an
  • 00:37:24
    examination called the Scottish
  • 00:37:26
    University entrance exam which was a
  • 00:37:30
    very difficult exam if you passed that
  • 00:37:34
    you were then allowed to apply to any
  • 00:37:37
    Scottish University for entrance to any
  • 00:37:40
    faculty it didn't mean you would be
  • 00:37:42
    accepted it meant you could apply so I
  • 00:37:45
    thought I have got to pass this exam
  • 00:37:48
    right so I went home I studied like hell
  • 00:37:52
    for some months I sent the exam did you
  • 00:37:55
    study and passed it well mathematics
  • 00:37:58
    physics chemistry uh English History the
  • 00:38:02
    whole boiling okay it was everything and
  • 00:38:05
    you had to oh but the interesting thing
  • 00:38:07
    you had to have a a different language I
  • 00:38:10
    chose U oh so I sat an examin and passed
  • 00:38:21
    it at least at least but but you see so
  • 00:38:25
    so I managed to pass that EX
  • 00:38:28
    and therefore I then applied for
  • 00:38:30
    medicine because what had happened in
  • 00:38:32
    Burma these years ago it suddenly began
  • 00:38:36
    to click what would I want to do the
  • 00:38:39
    rest of my life I had been taught how to
  • 00:38:41
    kill all the from the age of 13 to to
  • 00:38:46
    21 yeah that's all I had learned how to
  • 00:38:48
    do and now what am I going to do for the
  • 00:38:51
    rest of my life and so this incident of
  • 00:38:54
    the Indian soldier shot in the head in
  • 00:38:57
    Burma
  • 00:38:59
    click what am I going to do maybe I
  • 00:39:01
    should try to help people instead of
  • 00:39:04
    trying to kill them and that's how I
  • 00:39:07
    became uh applied for
  • 00:39:09
    medicine and then after Medicine of
  • 00:39:12
    course you graduate and you you spend
  • 00:39:14
    your one year um what call in Britain
  • 00:39:17
    they call that house doctor here they
  • 00:39:19
    call it an inter you do medicine and
  • 00:39:22
    surgery mhm and after that I thought
  • 00:39:25
    what am I going to do for now I wanted
  • 00:39:27
    to a pediatrician that was a one who
  • 00:39:29
    deals with children's diseases so I went
  • 00:39:32
    to a children's hospital in
  • 00:39:34
    Scotland and um for the first 6 months I
  • 00:39:38
    was there there was one little boy who
  • 00:39:41
    was the same age I had a son at that
  • 00:39:43
    time who was age three this little boy
  • 00:39:46
    was age three and he had um an incurable
  • 00:39:52
    leukemia and he was very sick and very
  • 00:39:54
    ill and the only person would allow to
  • 00:39:58
    do anything with him because I became
  • 00:40:01
    very attached to him was me he would
  • 00:40:04
    only he wouldn't allow the nurses to
  • 00:40:05
    take blood off he wouldn't allow them to
  • 00:40:07
    feed them I had to feed him I had to
  • 00:40:10
    take the blood off I had to give him any
  • 00:40:12
    medication he was the only one who would
  • 00:40:14
    allow him to touch him and I became
  • 00:40:16
    extremely attached to this
  • 00:40:18
    boy unfortunately he
  • 00:40:21
    died and uh I realized at that time I
  • 00:40:24
    could not be a
  • 00:40:25
    pediatrician because I I became too
  • 00:40:28
    attached to the children so I then
  • 00:40:31
    decided um I'm going to do something
  • 00:40:34
    else and the one aspect in in in
  • 00:40:39
    medicine where you don't have to deal
  • 00:40:41
    with people really all that much is
  • 00:40:45
    anesthesiology you deal with them on a
  • 00:40:47
    table but you're not dealing with them
  • 00:40:49
    all the time so this
  • 00:40:52
    emotional aspect of the childish thing I
  • 00:40:56
    realized I don't want to become too
  • 00:40:58
    emotionally attached so I'll become an
  • 00:41:01
    Inus so that's what I did so that's how
  • 00:41:04
    you became
  • 00:41:06
    an and then when did you move to Canada
  • 00:41:10
    19 55 or 56 you know it is very
  • 00:41:14
    interesting that uh even for choosing a
  • 00:41:16
    subject that you chose as a language
  • 00:41:18
    subject you could have chosen French
  • 00:41:20
    because you know no I I didn't like
  • 00:41:22
    French I was very bad at French in
  • 00:41:24
    school is it my I remember one mark got
  • 00:41:27
    my French examination at school was 19
  • 00:41:29
    out of 100 not not very good so no I
  • 00:41:34
    didn't choose French I chose U yeah and
  • 00:41:36
    I passed it and you passed it yeah you
  • 00:41:39
    know I chose French oh well and that was
  • 00:41:43
    for 6 months and that is where I met my
  • 00:41:45
    wife oh well good for
  • 00:41:47
    you but I never understood French that
  • 00:41:50
    way you know there's one little
  • 00:41:52
    interesting part of my time in India
  • 00:41:55
    which uh is is a bit you know at one
  • 00:41:59
    time the people in the what they called
  • 00:42:02
    the tribal territories between
  • 00:42:04
    Afghanistan in Northwest India used to
  • 00:42:07
    raid into India all the time and they
  • 00:42:10
    would kill off a few people and steal a
  • 00:42:12
    few women and pinch the cows and the
  • 00:42:15
    sheep and go back into the tribal
  • 00:42:17
    territories and there was nothing you
  • 00:42:19
    could do about it 1947 at some point
  • 00:42:22
    there was a raid from the tribal
  • 00:42:24
    territories into nor what year was it N
  • 00:42:26
    I think it was 1947 or maybe it was 46 I
  • 00:42:29
    can't just quote right
  • 00:42:31
    remember but there was a raid into
  • 00:42:34
    Northern India near a little town called
  • 00:42:36
    buffer and a little town called oie in
  • 00:42:38
    the Northwest Territories and I was sent
  • 00:42:41
    up with a company of uh grea soldiers
  • 00:42:44
    when this had happened to uh to counter
  • 00:42:48
    it but of course by the time we got
  • 00:42:50
    there they had gone back anyway so it
  • 00:42:51
    didn't matter um but that must have been
  • 00:42:54
    one of the last raids into what was um
  • 00:42:58
    India at that time from the tribal
  • 00:43:00
    territories of
  • 00:43:01
    Afghanistan but and I had been sent up
  • 00:43:04
    there to try and counter it but by the
  • 00:43:05
    time I got there it was all over anyway
  • 00:43:07
    but you know the interesting thing one
  • 00:43:09
    of the ways that the soldiers used to
  • 00:43:12
    there was a river where we were
  • 00:43:13
    stationed in buffer there was a river
  • 00:43:16
    near where we were stationed and the
  • 00:43:18
    soldiers used to go fishing you know how
  • 00:43:20
    they fished they took a grein out and
  • 00:43:22
    threw it into the
  • 00:43:23
    river and of course that stunn the fish
  • 00:43:27
    and then they would collect the
  • 00:43:28
    fish that was how they fish that's
  • 00:43:31
    that's a convenient way to fish yeah
  • 00:43:33
    very good yeah okay so you came to
  • 00:43:36
    Canada in 1962 you said
  • 00:43:39
    1955 56 okay and you pursued medicine
  • 00:43:43
    worked as a well the reason I came to
  • 00:43:45
    Canada was the canadi at that time as
  • 00:43:48
    you know we were in the middle of the
  • 00:43:49
    cold war between communism and and the
  • 00:43:53
    West you know Britain the native
  • 00:43:55
    countries America and Stalin's Russia
  • 00:43:59
    right there was a distinct yeah that was
  • 00:44:01
    called the Cold War how do you see
  • 00:44:04
    Canada US and Britain today
  • 00:44:07
    today
  • 00:44:09
    um and India if you have any idea about
  • 00:44:14
    how I view them well we have to we have
  • 00:44:16
    to maintain a NATO alliance or we'll be
  • 00:44:19
    overrun by Russia I'm sure of that I
  • 00:44:22
    mean America is very important that's
  • 00:44:24
    why this coming election is very
  • 00:44:26
    important cuz if he gets in he'll he'll
  • 00:44:28
    not to to Putin who um Trump if if Trump
  • 00:44:34
    gets in at at this next election there
  • 00:44:38
    there you want two things to happen you
  • 00:44:40
    said something can you say I do I want I
  • 00:44:42
    live to 103 years old and I want to see
  • 00:44:44
    Donald Trump in jail it's that
  • 00:44:49
    simple but anyway U I think one of them
  • 00:44:52
    is going to be true which is the first
  • 00:44:54
    one you're going to live up till 103
  • 00:44:56
    years of
  • 00:44:57
    well maybe the second
  • 00:45:01
    one I mean the exit poles are quite the
  • 00:45:05
    opposite at the moment well I think it's
  • 00:45:07
    I think if he gets in it's it's game
  • 00:45:10
    over for democracy but why do you think
  • 00:45:12
    that uh that uh Trump is not good for
  • 00:45:16
    the
  • 00:45:16
    us because he's only concerned with he's
  • 00:45:20
    a total total narcissist he con he's
  • 00:45:23
    concerned with nothing but himself
  • 00:45:27
    he's angry at everything it's all about
  • 00:45:30
    him it's never ever about anyone else
  • 00:45:35
    it's always about Donald J
  • 00:45:38
    Trump I call him Donald J
  • 00:45:41
    trumpet but um I mean the can you think
  • 00:45:46
    of any good thing that he has done I
  • 00:45:49
    can't think of any good politician doing
  • 00:45:51
    any good things at all well well no some
  • 00:45:54
    politicians try to do the they try but
  • 00:45:58
    did to have you heard anything about
  • 00:46:01
    Narendra Modi yes I do yeah so what is
  • 00:46:04
    your view point about I think he is
  • 00:46:09
    um you can be honest I think he
  • 00:46:13
    is very concerned with India's future
  • 00:46:16
    correctly yeah but I think he tends to
  • 00:46:21
    be a bit on the autocratic
  • 00:46:24
    side and um
  • 00:46:28
    for some people I I I think I think it
  • 00:46:31
    would be difficult to deal with so uh so
  • 00:46:35
    your Viewpoint is somewhere like Trump
  • 00:46:37
    in his well no no no no no he's not as
  • 00:46:40
    bad as Trump oh God no no no he's not
  • 00:46:42
    you feelings about him Mi feeling well
  • 00:46:45
    I'll tell you why because um look India
  • 00:46:48
    wanted its independence and got
  • 00:46:50
    it but then instead of a unified India
  • 00:46:53
    you ended up with three countries
  • 00:46:55
    Pakistan Hindustan
  • 00:46:57
    Bangladesh okay so now you have three
  • 00:47:00
    little not three little but three
  • 00:47:02
    countries now the siks are wanting a a
  • 00:47:06
    separate kistan so you want to break it
  • 00:47:08
    up even more so you want another little
  • 00:47:10
    country India doesn't want that no
  • 00:47:13
    that's right so Modi at least wants to
  • 00:47:15
    try to keep a unified India now I don't
  • 00:47:17
    know who's right and who's wrong in this
  • 00:47:20
    atmosphere because I understand the SS
  • 00:47:23
    understandably want their independence
  • 00:47:25
    for from what well well but you see you
  • 00:47:28
    know people emotionally people want
  • 00:47:31
    certain things maybe politically it
  • 00:47:33
    isn't correct but emotionally I
  • 00:47:35
    understand that being Scottish I mean I
  • 00:47:37
    want independence from
  • 00:47:39
    England England and Scotland have fought
  • 00:47:41
    for hundreds of years and yet finally in
  • 00:47:46
    177 they became unified they were
  • 00:47:49
    unified in 1601 with the crown when
  • 00:47:51
    Queen Elizabeth died in James the 1 of
  • 00:47:53
    Scotland James the 6 of Scotland became
  • 00:47:56
    James the 1 of England MH so they were
  • 00:47:58
    unified by the crown then they became
  • 00:48:01
    politically unified in
  • 00:48:03
    1707 when the two Count's Parliament
  • 00:48:05
    joined together yeah so they unified but
  • 00:48:08
    ever since then there's still been a
  • 00:48:10
    Scottish independence movement they want
  • 00:48:13
    their independence now as an emotional
  • 00:48:16
    Scotsman I would like to see Scotland
  • 00:48:18
    independent but as a political Scotsman
  • 00:48:22
    I say that's stupid yeah you're breaking
  • 00:48:24
    up a country which is small enough
  • 00:48:26
    already into smaller parts why
  • 00:48:30
    politically it doesn't make any sense
  • 00:48:32
    it's the same with um same with the SS
  • 00:48:34
    in kistan yeah politically it doesn't
  • 00:48:37
    make I can understand emotionally why
  • 00:48:39
    they want to politically I don't think
  • 00:48:41
    it's a good idea so in that way Modi is
  • 00:48:43
    correct okay so this is one of the
  • 00:48:45
    questions that I had uh do you heard
  • 00:48:47
    have you heard about kohinur about what
  • 00:48:50
    about kohinur diamond oh the co diamond
  • 00:48:54
    in the British when are we when are we
  • 00:48:56
    getting the
  • 00:48:57
    you won't you you should but you
  • 00:49:00
    won't you probably won't get it back do
  • 00:49:03
    you know the story behind goor not
  • 00:49:05
    really but I know it's a huge big
  • 00:49:07
    diamond in the British crown now yeah so
  • 00:49:09
    basically this was a diamond which was
  • 00:49:11
    which was in India inab and the king
  • 00:49:14
    during that time who was a young boy
  • 00:49:18
    around 11 years old I see and he signed
  • 00:49:21
    that document without knowing that you
  • 00:49:23
    know he was giving away gave it over to
  • 00:49:24
    the British CR British and since then
  • 00:49:27
    legally they have well you might you
  • 00:49:30
    well then you might get it back who
  • 00:49:31
    knows I well every Indian is asking that
  • 00:49:34
    question well you know there's a gradual
  • 00:49:37
    feeling if you notice some of the the
  • 00:49:39
    artifacts from Greece and so on have
  • 00:49:41
    been given back to Greece from the
  • 00:49:42
    British Museum and there's a gradual
  • 00:49:45
    feeling of these things which were taken
  • 00:49:48
    from countries to Britain maybe ought to
  • 00:49:51
    be given back and that has begun to
  • 00:49:54
    happen so who knows in 500 years or a
  • 00:49:58
    thousand years maybe the coor will be
  • 00:50:00
    given 5,000
  • 00:50:03
    years but I wouldn't hold my breath yeah
  • 00:50:07
    I mean this is very emotional
  • 00:50:08
    sentimental yes I understand oh I
  • 00:50:11
    understand every time there is a
  • 00:50:12
    conversation one of the questions is
  • 00:50:14
    always about when are we getting the
  • 00:50:15
    coino back well um I can understand it
  • 00:50:18
    but I wouldn't hold my
  • 00:50:22
    breath okay so uh what is what is one
  • 00:50:26
    thing that you have learned in your life
  • 00:50:27
    that you would like to advise some
  • 00:50:29
    people in your 98 days of your life what
  • 00:50:32
    is one thing that you have learned and
  • 00:50:33
    you would like to advise to
  • 00:50:35
    people to be tolerant to be
  • 00:50:39
    understanding and to
  • 00:50:43
    converse instead of
  • 00:50:45
    fight basically that's my philosophy is
  • 00:50:49
    there anything in your life that you
  • 00:50:50
    have regretted
  • 00:50:53
    regretted too many things to mention
  • 00:50:56
    what on top of your mind comes to your
  • 00:51:00
    mind well one of them was again in
  • 00:51:05
    India where I was in charge of
  • 00:51:12
    um when I was in charge during a
  • 00:51:16
    riot and a man had a man was shot by my
  • 00:51:22
    soldiers and I've regretted that ever
  • 00:51:25
    since
  • 00:51:27
    what happened I what can I say I
  • 00:51:31
    mean what can I say I was in charge and
  • 00:51:34
    and the riot was there and people were
  • 00:51:37
    being injured and killed and we had to
  • 00:51:40
    go in and stop
  • 00:51:42
    it and
  • 00:51:44
    unfortunately I had to order one of the
  • 00:51:46
    soldiers to kill someone which he
  • 00:51:50
    did I've regretted ever
  • 00:51:53
    since which part of India was that that
  • 00:51:56
    in in which is now
  • 00:52:00
    Pakistan there was in a place called
  • 00:52:02
    havan which is near abbotabad
  • 00:52:07
    nearad pardon near abbotabad it was in
  • 00:52:11
    Pakistan it's now Pakistan it was India
  • 00:52:13
    at the time um and abitab band was uh I
  • 00:52:19
    don't know if you'll understand this
  • 00:52:21
    hamara palon
  • 00:52:24
    K our regiment contonment was in arabad
  • 00:52:29
    okay and havan was a town near arabad
  • 00:52:33
    okay and it was in havan where this
  • 00:52:36
    disturbance was taking place and I had
  • 00:52:39
    been ordered to go down there with with
  • 00:52:42
    the
  • 00:52:43
    troops so that's that's one thing I
  • 00:52:47
    regret if there's one thing that you
  • 00:52:49
    would like to tell anyone who's watching
  • 00:52:51
    or listening to this conversation may
  • 00:52:53
    that be Indian from Pakistan Bangladesh
  • 00:52:55
    British what is one message that you
  • 00:52:57
    have for
  • 00:52:59
    them
  • 00:53:01
    um instead of fighting sit down and talk
  • 00:53:06
    and come to a resolution because you can
  • 00:53:09
    do it everybody has their own opinion
  • 00:53:12
    but you come to you can come to a
  • 00:53:14
    compromise which satisfies without
  • 00:53:17
    killing
  • 00:53:19
    people that's one of the things I would
  • 00:53:23
    say thank you sir I have
  • 00:53:27
    conv with you today well thank you very
  • 00:53:29
    much and I would just like to say that
  • 00:53:32
    uh I think it's very like I said when I
  • 00:53:34
    started that you know it is one of the
  • 00:53:35
    rarest opportunities that I have got in
  • 00:53:38
    my life and thank you to wasu as well
  • 00:53:39
    for you know making me good well I'm I'm
  • 00:53:43
    touched yeah and uh I think you bring a
  • 00:53:47
    very different perspective and I and I
  • 00:53:49
    am so glad and I'm also so grateful that
  • 00:53:52
    you know it was a medium that had to go
  • 00:53:55
    through from this point of view and you
  • 00:53:57
    know you sharing your story well I I
  • 00:53:59
    tell you what it was India which changed
  • 00:54:01
    me it made me grow up grow up MH that's
  • 00:54:04
    where the change occurred from then on
  • 00:54:07
    it was just development but that's when
  • 00:54:09
    the initial change occurred and then
  • 00:54:11
    it's just development from then on but
  • 00:54:14
    it was from India yeah so I have to I
  • 00:54:16
    have to give a lot to India for my for
  • 00:54:19
    my whole being so believe me I I totally
  • 00:54:24
    um thoroughly respect the Indian people
  • 00:54:27
    all right sir thank you so much for your
  • 00:54:29
    thank you very much indeed thank you
  • 00:54:31
    been a pleasure same here thank you for
  • 00:54:33
    listening to this podcast and if you're
  • 00:54:34
    not subscribed yet then click right now
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    and subscribe because every week I'm
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    going to post a video or a podcast and
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Tags
  • Indépendance
  • Partition
  • Gandhi
  • Jinnah
  • Armée britannique
  • Cachemire
  • Kohinoor
  • Colonialisme
  • Nehrū
  • Paix