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all right and welcome back everyone this
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is the fourth in a series of
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conversations and I have actually
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prepared some notes today with great
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thanks to Toby Sinclair whose dumbest
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the service of writing up a bit of what
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we've been talking about which is great
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because none of us could remember so
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yeah the three conversations before
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today some of the topics that we've
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covered have been informal versus formal
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networks so the fact that a large
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proportion of organizational learning
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occurs in the informal networks these
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become critical sensor networks and
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there's a different relationship to
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trust in the informal versus formal
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networks we've talked about the nature
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of organization design interventions and
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the fact that it's easier to add
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interventions to assistance than it is
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to remove them so in effect it's easier
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to scale that it is Tedesco talked about
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three types of interventions stable
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plastic ephemeral and a key note there
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is to be really careful that you get rid
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of the the ephemeral or the temporary
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time-bound interventions that you're
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making otherwise they'll just stay in
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the system and the concertina effect
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where you make a really complex and
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they'd have to blow it up later we've
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talked about hope despair cycle the as
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is to be organizational design model
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which is destination focused and has
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origins in cybernetics and how that
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basically creates a cycle that's
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negative alternatively it's alternative
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used to start from from principles and
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allow things to emerge we've spoken
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about the Spotify example both how that
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culture emerged over time and also the
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risks in copying a model or a snapshot
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of a model that is constantly changing
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and trying to apply that snapshot
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somewhere else but we also spoken about
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how into interactions or connections are
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really the key with some example
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in organizational scaffolding and also
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in the work of Matt Skelton and Manuel
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pace in team topologies we've talked
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about some of the traps in
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organizational design including
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designing in a silo being destination
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focused using recipes or play books
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which and send you in a direction of
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homogenize a ssin the risk of being
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abstracted from context in design of
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conflicting goals and of the utilization
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paradox we spoke about hierarchy which
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is becoming increasingly demonized but
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has a real role to play in
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organizational design that's an
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important constraint without hierarchy
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you don't have a chain of command in a
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crisis and also importantly Mavericks
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don't emerge we spent some time on
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leadership particularly around the
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concept of how followers create leaders
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as opposed to leaders creating followers
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we've spoken about the idea that some
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leaders falsely think productivity is
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decision-making in their roles and that
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in a crisis perhaps consult consultation
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is an inhibiting constraint rather than
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enabling the strengths and finally we
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touched on adaptive capacity which is
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basically the idea that the aim of all
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designs should be to increase the
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adaptive capacity of the organization so
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we're looking for fluid structures that
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are allow adaptation to adaptation in
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design to changing circumstances
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so that's been the last three what we
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spoke about talking about today is
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continuing on the theme of adaptive
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capacity which has brought a fair bit of
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interest and also moving into some
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practical examples from our collective
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experience we covered some ground under
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its but I wrote some I I took some of
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the same notes I'm not gonna read them
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out but the adaptive capacity is
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something that really does sort of
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intrigue me and how we could apply that
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in organizations it seems to have come
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from climate change or at least its
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origins is in how how we adapt based
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upon climate
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jain's one of the definitions here's
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adaptive capacity is the ability of a
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system to adjust a climate change
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including climate variability and
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extremes to moderate potential damages
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to take advantages of opportunities or
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to cope with consequences well if you
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just remove the words climate change and
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or just remove the word climate and just
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leave it as change or disruption then
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that really puts us in the the current
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condition with the the global pandemic
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and all the other sort of challenges and
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organization has the issue for me is
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that most organizations see adaptive
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capacity meaning they've got staff or
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they've got some contract with a
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consulting company and they they pull
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people from some virtual bench that they
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don't have to maintain if they need
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additional people to do work or
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different skill sets my reading of
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adaptive capacity I'm here to learn more
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than anything is that we need to ensure
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people are in a continuous learning
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organization a continuous in
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continuously developing new skills and
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capabilities and continuing to practice
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their existing skills and capabilities
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and that they're able to reform and
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adjust and pull from different parts of
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the organization to respond to
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disruptions or chaos or other changes
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that they without having to sort of go
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and hire in new people and it seems that
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the networks within the organization
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those sort of loosely connected networks
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and even those sort of extended networks
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seem to be the way to leverage this so
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that's my understanding
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I think I think it also raises the whole
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resilient robustness debate and then
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you've got to deal with the Talib stuff
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about anti fragile which is problematic
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in his own right and I think you've also
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then got the issue about whether you can
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take the biological methods and
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metaphors over because I think if you
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look at the original stuff honesty comes
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from Holland and Gundersen originally
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this stuff in a biological system the
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feedback mechanisms and caused
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catastrophic failure but human beings
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seem to have a capacity to go through a
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phase shift in a catastrophe and change
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identity structures
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and so I think we got to be careful on
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the straightforward biological metaphor
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here because I think humans are you know
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set more more more complex in that sense
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and a lot of this is term definition
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mm-hmm it's it's the poem is the poem I
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got we tell it which is I remember said
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this is just before I got blocked and
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joined a company involved in slamming
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Wardley in several Nobel Prize winners
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and I said you know from my point of
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view auntie fragile is a type of
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resilience and we've known about it for
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50 or 60 years symbiosis is an example
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yeah which is not to say you're wrong is
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just to say I would use the terms
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differently because I think the
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resilient robust thing but Talabani
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wants acolytes yeah but I think the the
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key definition for me is a system which
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is robust survives unchanged a system
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which is resilient survives with
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continuity of identity over time and for
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me a system which survives better by you
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know responding to stress or failure is
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one type of resilience yeah but it's not
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the only type of resilience and over
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focus on it can actually be quite
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dangerous and for humans the interaction
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between the informal and the formal is
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key so I come back to the thing if you
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have a dense informal network and
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everybody is within two degrees of
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separation of everybody else that's
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really good news but if you don't also
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have a formal hierarchy it's really bad
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news so you need multiple interacting
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types of organizational structure to
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create the resilience because you need a
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lot of room you need an awful lot of
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redundancy in the system and and the
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more you focus on resilience the more
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redundancy you need the less exploited
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if you can be the more you focus and
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robustness the less redundancy you need
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in the system you say that was the thing
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you were coming up with terminology say
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I wonder if the the would be very
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carefully ER with you in Thailand but
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whether or not the the issue of anti
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fragile ease is the book and the content
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and and I've read it and I've seen many
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many reviews of it I think the concept
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have been anti-fur a July in the in the
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in the
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definition that you don't want a fragile
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organization that's susceptible to
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impact and changes and breaks down very
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quickly when there's some sudden change
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so I think the the concept have been
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anti fragile is this idea of being
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robust and again this is definitions my
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understanding of robustness is that if
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something happens your organization can
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resist it or either way resiliency or
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being resilient means that you can
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respond to it and overcome it if it
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happens whereas if you're a boss it
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doesn't impact you which you know for
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example I don't want the collar on my or
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the steering wheel of my car to recover
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quickly from failure I want it to be
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fragile yeah the car as a whole is
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therefore resilient and I think this
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trouble with privilege in one term over
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all the other terms rather than
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recognizing you need variations on this
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so what we're saying is we need
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organizations to both be resilient and
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robust new things break which don't
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recover I mean think that's part of the
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problem if you have an over rigid
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hierarchy you know with too many layers
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it can't break when it needs to break so
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there's an ability to reassemble very
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quickly with a different form which I
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would is part of resilience and if your
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existing structures can't break then
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actually you can't reform see that's the
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analogy of a child's bones if a child
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breaks a bone and it is fragile because
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it's it's a child's bone but then it
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grows back more robust and actually
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that's a great analogy for leadership
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but then how do we achieve that with
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leadership when leadership clearly fails
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at some point in many organizations we
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see that right now we needed to be able
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to break and then reform even stronger
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the challenge is this how do you stop
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those people who be difficult role
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though I did when I did the subdomain
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models on cannabic one of the things we
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we did on the chaos space is we said if
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you face an unimaginable situation to
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which you haven't got a response it's
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better to recognize it and
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that again so it's not that you may want
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them to recover it's also you may want
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to part the system to fail completely
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and if the system continues after it's
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after it's necessary failure point it
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may prevent the change coming through in
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time how about the concept you see
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making me think because of all the
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challenges we got in the u.s. at the
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moment how do you what about the idea of
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business leaders you know it's a weird
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term but these executives in business
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being elected for terms and only allowed
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to serve one or two terms so you know
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you've got this guy called Dave again
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you come in we've talked about this
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before
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yeah you're focused on methods based on
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social optimism and the assumption is
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all about individuals if you have a crew
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let's come back to where we started on
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this stuff you can have different pilots
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there's always a pilot but the different
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person can be doing it that's that's
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what that's a resilient system yeah but
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also I think there's a there's a reason
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why when you look at the top
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organizations in the world a common
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thing that you'll see is that the
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founder still has something to do with
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the organization so whether it's Amazon
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whether it's Microsoft whether it's
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Tesla whether it's berkshire hathaway
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that coming constant involvement from
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someone who's has got kind of a vision
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and a need that exceeds a management to
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seems to be a pattern for success over
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maybe the short term CEO he's got like
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an even focus or or a resume building
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focus it's also the issue about do you
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go for consensus building on consensus
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build so in innovation consensus is
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bloody dangerous yeah and again it's is
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this how do you manage different things
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in different spaces there are different
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roles
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I mean Pope Arthur Prada me God is a
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universe and one of the reasons why one
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of these wrong because he's trying to
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create another universal now you
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Universal I think I mean I'm coming back
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to the biological makes a fool Dave I
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think these um so a very interesting
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article I came across recently is by a
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guy called David woods who talks about
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this notion of graceful extensibility I
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don't know if you've come across it but
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Alicia is your arrow actually introduced
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me to do this last year in this I think
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the other thing is they're different
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kinds of adaptive capacity so you know
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the the essence of this that I really
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find really interesting is is they talk
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about an organism and being fit for its
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for its for it for its context to its
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ecosystem and when you're almost in the
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middle of of your she calls it an
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adaptive space David woods this other
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other language for it but when you're in
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the middle of that adaptive space you're
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kind of adapting your adaptive capacity
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is around adapting for things that you
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could plan for things that's quite
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familiar but you can start approaching
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the boundary of your adaptive space
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where you almost need to start you need
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to switch to a different form of
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adaptive capacity where you're more able
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to deal with surprise for example and
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extend across that boundary to explore
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it address and Possible's and there's an
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inherent tension because the the
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resources that you need to invest almost
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to optimize for the current context that
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you're in that your fitful it's
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completely different to the resources
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that you need when you're approaching
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this boundary and these things are in
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tension and one of the things that I
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find quite interesting is where they
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talk about if if you're especially in a
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in a networked organization if the
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awareness that you're approaching this
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boundary is not salient to enough of the
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nodes and the network or it's not not
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enough of them are experiencing it they
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resist making the investment for that
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kind of capacity and I think we can see
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that so our organizations that have
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almost become to fit their over
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optimized for the current context and in
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trying to
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that optimality we're reducing the the
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resources that we need to be able to
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deal with unexpected events or do you
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know in Dave's language almost to
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transform to UM I think the other thing
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that I find interesting is in the in the
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eco ecosystem resilience literature they
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talk about regime shifts I think it's
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just a different you know name almost
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sort of phase shift but it's this idea
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of small variables that we're not
00:16:02
necessarily monitoring creating what
00:16:06
looks like sudden tipping points but
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actually if we knew what do what we were
00:16:10
looking for we could have seen it coming
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now so how do we you know the way that
00:16:15
we prepare for some of these regime
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shifts in the way that we create
00:16:20
adaptive capacity when we are kind of in
00:16:22
the middle of a most stable ecosystem
00:16:25
are completely different so I find that
00:16:27
quite interesting you know the the
00:16:29
tensions that that we need to navigate
00:16:30
how resources get allocated our drive
00:16:34
for optimization and efficiency when
00:16:37
things are stable undermines our ability
00:16:39
to adapt when things suddenly change I
00:16:44
think that that could be a really
00:16:46
interesting area for us to explore just
00:16:51
some of what listening to you Sonja but
00:16:53
also listen to what Dave was saying you
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know I go back to some of the the stuff
00:16:58
I read that kata wrote some years ago
00:17:00
about what he used to call a dual
00:17:02
operating system because Dave stone
00:17:04
about crew resource management which is
00:17:06
this ability the organization to sort of
00:17:09
form and reform continuously based upon
00:17:11
its needs and and and what its going to
00:17:13
respond to but then we don't know lose
00:17:16
the hierarchy altogether because the
00:17:18
hierarchy with no hierarchy is you
00:17:20
saying in a crisis in chaos we have no
00:17:22
leadership and we have no way of
00:17:24
responding the network just tends to
00:17:26
bump into each other and get stressed so
00:17:28
Carter used to talk about a dual
00:17:29
operating system where you've got the
00:17:31
sort of network of teams which is you
00:17:33
CRM sort of idea but you still got a a
00:17:36
reasonable hierarchy to stop the lunatic
00:17:38
asylum
00:17:39
because we have to pay bills make sure
00:17:41
people's human resource needs are taken
00:17:43
care of and that type of thing and and I
00:17:45
started to draw a picture think
00:17:47
well you know whether it's Coty's model
00:17:49
or something different whether we could
00:17:51
have this this capacity which is a CRM
00:17:54
based system which is a network of teams
00:17:56
and then the hum the hierarchical side
00:17:59
where we need something whether that
00:18:00
could move into much more of an elective
00:18:02
model where you don't get your narcissus
00:18:05
who retain power for 25 years and drive
00:18:08
the ship how they want to drive it you
00:18:10
know iceberg right ahead pour on more
00:18:12
coal head towards it which is what we
00:18:15
see and so whether or not we can move to
00:18:18
because he is frozen well I might I
00:18:33
might add something so we we did some
00:18:35
crude research with some of our
00:18:37
customers very crude a little while ago
00:18:41
just looking at the number of value
00:18:43
governance roles so project management
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coordination scheduling kind of the
00:18:52
roles that help value flow through a
00:18:55
matrix organization as opposed to the
00:18:58
number of value creation roles which are
00:19:01
the roles that you kind of put together
00:19:03
in a project or or in a cross-functional
00:19:08
team to to create value and we kind of
00:19:13
came up with this silly index that we
00:19:14
use nowadays called organizational BMI
00:19:18
which is basically the the ratio kind of
00:19:23
with that crude research we found that
00:19:25
the organizations that seem to be doing
00:19:27
things well we're running in about one
00:19:29
to five or better so one one value
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government's relative about five value
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creating rules and we've worked with
00:19:38
customers that have kind of almost up to
00:19:43
1 to 2 or 1 to 3 so you basically got
00:19:48
these poor people who are sitting there
00:19:49
trying to create value but they're
00:19:51
spending all their days
00:19:54
filling in status reports or or doing
00:19:58
timesheets or report
00:20:00
to some master that is obsessively there
00:20:03
to help them create value but is
00:20:05
actually taking them away from the very
00:20:07
function that they're asked to do and I
00:20:12
think this kind of being a bit of an
00:20:13
industry that's emerged about that but
00:20:15
what off what I've tended to find is
00:20:17
that as that ratio goes up the rigidity
00:20:21
of the organization the inflexibility
00:20:24
the inability to deliver value goes up
00:20:28
as well and coming back to what you were
00:20:31
saying so I mean it's it's kind of like
00:20:34
and some of it was into one of the
00:20:36
earlier conversations it's kind of like
00:20:38
it's very easy to add that capacity
00:20:41
because you can always say look I made a
00:20:42
project manager to do the business case
00:20:44
for the stuff that we haven't started
00:20:45
yet or I need to I'm running behind I
00:20:48
need to bring a scheduler in but it's
00:20:50
really hard to pull that out of the
00:20:53
system once it's in there but it just
00:20:55
becomes a perceived need I suppose
00:20:59
that's one of the reasons why I'm
00:21:00
particularly concerned about the
00:21:02
acquisition of disciplined agile by the
00:21:05
PMI because I've always said that if
00:21:08
you've got a vested interest in not
00:21:10
changing which the people in the project
00:21:13
management community do then you're not
00:21:16
going to change and a job for agile to
00:21:20
work effectively and for organizations
00:21:22
to be adaptive you need to strip out a
00:21:26
fair bit of that coordination costs and
00:21:28
that governance cost in order to let
00:21:31
value flow more easily yeah but there
00:21:34
are whole set of things we need to look
00:21:35
at on this all right so one is we need
00:21:39
to look at what happened in the 80s 90s
00:21:40
in that we switch from lifetime
00:21:42
employment so if you had people who
00:21:45
served an apprentice model through the
00:21:47
company they could be trusted to make
00:21:48
decisions because they knew people
00:21:50
they'd grown up in it is what I used to
00:21:52
call the matron case yeah so can't let
00:21:55
the matron picked up on all of the
00:21:56
pieces the other systems didn't because
00:21:58
she grown up in the hospital she knew
00:22:00
everybody knew everything it wasn't
00:22:01
explicit what happened in the 80s 90s as
00:22:05
we started to move people on to
00:22:06
short-term employment we started to
00:22:08
employ them for that we took an
00:22:09
engineering metaphor so it's now very
00:22:13
difficult for an organization to
00:22:15
delegate because you haven't build the
00:22:17
tacit and implicit knowledge and
00:22:18
connections for delegation to work and
00:22:21
that that's part of my problem without
00:22:23
all people there's no point in just
00:22:25
allocating to people just because
00:22:26
they're people you know they haven't got
00:22:29
the social infrastructure a role to
00:22:30
handle it which is why the bureaucracy
00:22:33
creeps in alright so I think that you
00:22:37
know that's a balancing act and we've
00:22:38
got to rethink that one in terms of the
00:22:41
way we build trust into processes
00:22:44
between diverse people rather than into
00:22:46
individuals so in a modern organization
00:22:50
I would never delegate to a person I
00:22:52
would delegate to a process or a
00:22:53
combination of people right and that
00:22:57
that becomes a as a way of rethinking
00:22:59
that right I think the other thing which
00:23:02
is interested in David woods is is the
00:23:04
whole point about graceful extensibility
00:23:06
is defined to avoid a system becoming
00:23:08
brittle that's his key dichotomy and you
00:23:11
can see the engineering metaphors coming
00:23:14
in because he sees integrate these
00:23:15
integrated systems engineering in
00:23:17
background so I'm actually thinking
00:23:20
human systems and I'll come back to our
00:23:22
starters sometimes systems need to be
00:23:24
brittle because they need to break early
00:23:29
and so for example if I take my trekking
00:23:32
poles this is a real case from the
00:23:34
weekend all right
00:23:36
the really expensive bit is the carbon
00:23:39
fiber pole so the tips are designed so
00:23:42
if you get twisted the tips will break
00:23:44
off because they're cheaper to replace I
00:23:47
mean they're designed to be brittle yeah
00:23:50
and I think we need to do that in
00:23:52
organisations we need to design some
00:23:55
structures which actually break
00:23:57
automatically if they face a context
00:23:59
they weren't designed for okay and I
00:24:02
think we keep having this belief in
00:24:04
continuity which is actually what's
00:24:06
dangerous so you could are not getting
00:24:09
mystical here and Nigel's arrived back
00:24:12
so I've got to be yeah you handled
00:24:15
tension you know Texan attitude to
00:24:17
religion I'm now going to be sensitive
00:24:19
about because I know he's likely to
00:24:21
exclude me from all sorts of
00:24:23
conversations if I don't pay attention
00:24:25
to it but
00:24:26
this concept of rebirth yeah and it's
00:24:31
quite interesting you look at symbiotic
00:24:33
species like Portuguese man-of-war or or
00:24:36
or species likes lima models which are
00:24:38
fascinating which can change from animal
00:24:41
to vegetable based on context it's the
00:24:44
ability to become something different
00:24:46
which is one of one of the key features
00:24:49
of resilience
00:24:50
yeah and that requires Britain oh it
00:24:53
requires us not to use engineering
00:24:55
metaphors but also to recognize this
00:24:58
long term human context so in light of
00:25:00
what I was making and Toyota used to
00:25:02
have this yeah what lifetime employment
00:25:04
does is it means you can delegate
00:25:07
because you know that somebody knows
00:25:08
people in those things in those process
00:25:10
you can have less bureaucracy the minute
00:25:12
you get rid of lifetime employment and
00:25:14
you just employed people based on skills
00:25:16
which is where our job is particularly
00:25:18
with the whole certification scam you
00:25:20
end up with more controls because
00:25:22
there's no naturally evolved process
00:25:24
which gives you trust
00:25:25
I should there's a case study for that
00:25:27
and talking about adaptive capacity my
00:25:29
entire internet connection died some now
00:25:32
connected via my cellular service and
00:25:35
then I couldn't add to switch computers
00:25:37
as well for some reason one computer
00:25:38
would work with the cell and it's funny
00:25:40
that Dave was talking about rebirth as I
00:25:42
came back there's an inference there but
00:25:44
you know how is a loom a for you one of
00:25:50
these days Nigel but on the Toyota think
00:25:53
that's a real truth ik so in the 70 we
00:25:55
had to oil crises in the 70s and Dave
00:25:58
and I are old enough to remember those
00:25:59
in the UK when gasoline was sort of
00:26:02
worth more than gold literally but at
00:26:06
that time Toyota got rid of a bunch of
00:26:08
people they they know are most companies
00:26:10
they sort of pruned when the inevitable
00:26:13
recession loomed because of the oil
00:26:15
crises and everybody was scrambling for
00:26:18
money and then it was over of course
00:26:20
within a year or two I mean these things
00:26:21
come and they go and then what they
00:26:24
found was they were not able to recover
00:26:26
as quickly because Toyota's way of
00:26:30
working I've described it before as a
00:26:32
cult I don't mean that in the in the
00:26:34
worst
00:26:34
connotations of the word but it's a
00:26:37
system in which it takes years to become
00:26:39
a
00:26:40
expert in years to understand it in and
00:26:43
if you suddenly rip out a big chunk of
00:26:46
it you can't just shove some people with
00:26:48
a bit of paper it's a two day
00:26:49
certificate back in and it all recovers
00:26:51
it takes years of understanding it's a
00:26:53
whole philosophy your whole way of being
00:26:55
the whole culture is the way we behave
00:26:57
the way you do things and and if you
00:27:00
suddenly disrupt that in a way that is
00:27:03
catastrophic
00:27:04
it takes a long recovery period and so
00:27:07
the lifetime unemployment thing tends to
00:27:09
be more of a Japanese thing but the
00:27:12
basics of it of have having people there
00:27:15
who know your systems long-term and can
00:27:17
be adaptive if there is a cut if there
00:27:20
is a crisis and actually in the 2008
00:27:23
whenever it was 2006 seven eight
00:27:25
recession that led into sort of 2010
00:27:28
onwards when that started to her up and
00:27:31
Toyota was able to adapt they didn't
00:27:33
fire any of their permanent members of
00:27:35
staff they were able to adapt repurpose
00:27:37
them retrain them rescale them or reuse
00:27:40
them in some of the way even down to
00:27:41
community projects the downside of that
00:27:44
of course is that Toyota is a heavy
00:27:46
staff or organization away from the
00:27:49
manufacturing floor when you get into
00:27:51
the offices and the sort of non
00:27:53
manufacturing parts it is about 85%
00:27:56
outsource which means that they can keep
00:28:00
their employees their team members
00:28:02
employed because they can shed 85
00:28:05
percent of the workforce but that does
00:28:07
have some consequences because it means
00:28:09
a lot of these people don't care about
00:28:11
the Toyota way of doing things nor do
00:28:13
they ever take the time to learn it or
00:28:15
become skilled in it and so you end up
00:28:18
seeing the organization as my
00:28:19
observations run more like a traditional
00:28:23
large corporate organization and it
00:28:26
doesn't have all the values and
00:28:28
behaviors and capabilities that you see
00:28:31
on the production floor which is where
00:28:32
they make the vehicles this is a
00:28:35
balancing act isn't it I think that's
00:28:37
what organizations didn't do so we saw
00:28:39
the same with outsourcing yeah hand over
00:28:41
your whole computing to somebody all
00:28:43
right and then discover what service
00:28:45
level contracts really mean yeah and it
00:28:48
was actually one of the motivations when
00:28:50
connecting was originally created as I
00:28:51
was going back over the history
00:28:53
recently right was where I was working
00:28:55
on the next generation outsourcing
00:28:57
strategy and it was kind of like and I
00:29:00
was saying to IBM which IBM didn't like
00:29:02
it was one of my run-ins with Jimmy yeah
00:29:04
we need to withdraw from outsourcing
00:29:07
mission-critical work because that needs
00:29:10
to stay in the company yeah and they're
00:29:13
going to realize the error and we're
00:29:14
going to get a reverse process so you
00:29:17
need to create these much more fluid
00:29:19
structures and it's what's the balance
00:29:21
all right so if I was dealing with
00:29:25
something saying core manufacturing yeah
00:29:28
you probably want quite long-term
00:29:29
employment whereas uni-level accountants
00:29:32
know right
00:29:33
and it's it's getting there is
00:29:36
understanding this both Allen type
00:29:38
approach rather than either all type
00:29:40
approach and again part of the problem
00:29:42
with agile is that a bunch of bloody
00:29:44
extremists you have everything of
00:29:47
everything which has happened in is why
00:29:48
they keep producing buddy you know to to
00:29:51
column charts in which everything evil
00:29:54
is on the left and everything glorious
00:29:56
and wonderful and brightest is on the
00:29:58
right and it's they don't realize it
00:30:01
they need both yeah yeah I saw your
00:30:03
comments on one or two of those that
00:30:04
popped up the other day and I just hit
00:30:07
never I see them all right
00:30:08
trying to drive them by division its
00:30:12
politics in general though both sides
00:30:16
neither side exists people knew their
00:30:19
theology I mean monarchy ISM which is
00:30:22
he's actually the most dominant heresy
00:30:25
in the history of Christianity and it
00:30:27
still applies in the states in the u.s.
00:30:29
he's kind of belief that everything is
00:30:31
either absolutely bad are absolutely
00:30:33
good and you know it's it's a common
00:30:37
belief and it's a really scary one the
00:30:39
u.s. does that to great great aplomb by
00:30:43
the way whether it's bad or good they do
00:30:46
it to extreme excess he seems like the
00:30:50
UK Europe has this balance of equally
00:30:52
bad or good but in the u.s. you're
00:30:54
either incredibly bad or incredibly good
00:30:56
there's no happy medium which seems to
00:30:59
be a challenge at the moment in
00:31:02
societies interesting challenges we can
00:31:04
set up an old virgin Seon crusade
00:31:06
to deal with organizational design and
00:31:09
if you know your history you'll know
00:31:11
that that can be quite a cruel process
00:31:13
as they topped off in my prime when I
00:31:18
was talking about Cotter and jewel
00:31:20
operating systems which I'm sure Dave
00:31:23
was pleased I got chopped off in the
00:31:25
middle of that where did that lead us
00:31:27
did we come up with any sort of
00:31:29
practical approaches for organizations
00:31:33
trying to achieve a capacity that is
00:31:35
truly adaptive I don't think we we
00:31:41
really got there or so fast Nigel I am
00:31:45
we were waiting for you to get to that
00:31:47
level of convergence but I think what we
00:31:49
were we were talking about well we did
00:31:52
plan one of the things that Dave said
00:31:53
that I wanted to just explore a bit more
00:31:55
is this notion of designing something to
00:31:59
be brittle and to break you know almost
00:32:02
at the right moment when it is required
00:32:05
and I I just thought for the record I I
00:32:09
don't really from what I've read of
00:32:12
Woods's work I don't think that he is
00:32:15
really talking about things persisting
00:32:18
necessarily it's about adapting to be
00:32:22
fit to an entirely new context so to my
00:32:24
mind that also then includes this idea
00:32:27
of rebirth for transforming but one of
00:32:29
the things that's really interesting
00:32:30
there in terms of designing something
00:32:32
that is that is designed almost to break
00:32:36
or that is designed to be brittle at the
00:32:38
right time I think something else that's
00:32:40
really interesting is is if you see an
00:32:43
organization as a network so as a you
00:32:48
know as a distributed network there's
00:32:51
also this notion of because adaptive
00:32:53
capacity and I think this is where we
00:32:54
ended with jab last time which I I'm
00:32:56
really sad that he's not here but
00:32:58
adaptive capacity I think he he said
00:33:01
it's like a budget you know you can run
00:33:02
out of it and so there's this Woods
00:33:06
talks about this idea of it becoming
00:33:08
saturated and in a network there's also
00:33:12
this idea of reciprocity so maybe you
00:33:16
know so I guess one of the things that
00:33:17
I'm curious about is if you do this
00:33:20
find something to break or you design
00:33:21
brittleness there's something that needs
00:33:25
to be sacrificed there and it might be
00:33:27
that one unit in the network is able to
00:33:31
almost bolster the adaptive capacity of
00:33:34
a neighbor but you know this so there's
00:33:37
a there's an interesting leadership
00:33:39
aspect to this as well is you know if
00:33:40
you are almost in that coordinating role
00:33:43
how do you choose where the sacrifice
00:33:48
needs to happen where the brittleness
00:33:49
will be built-in and I think the other
00:33:57
thing is you know when you are in a
00:33:59
stable ecosystem if you want to call it
00:34:01
that and people can't really see the
00:34:02
need for it how do you convince people
00:34:07
that that you know that there's a need
00:34:10
for it you know they're all these it
00:34:11
seems like multiple tensions and both
00:34:14
ends as David said I mean tangled
00:34:18
tangled networks all their networks you
00:34:22
know and I think the level of
00:34:23
entanglement changes saturation which is
00:34:26
something his paper doesn't pick up on
00:34:28
yeah so if you if you change that the
00:34:32
type of entanglement you get a greater
00:34:34
capacity to absorb things all right
00:34:36
the other thing is that I disagree we
00:34:38
drove on this but we can get on to it I
00:34:40
don't think there's a limited budget
00:34:41
okay I think it's the same issue as
00:34:44
knowledge right knowledge isn't a
00:34:46
limited quantity is not that once you've
00:34:48
used it up it out flows it's just you
00:34:51
reach a point where you have to get
00:34:53
literal phase shift and the phase shift
00:34:54
concept is key and that's why I'm saying
00:34:58
the degree of brittleness is important
00:35:00
so the system has to be able to go
00:35:01
through a significant phase shift which
00:35:04
actually in a crisis quite interest what
00:35:07
happens in the crisis is the energy
00:35:09
costs have changed drops significantly
00:35:12
because the context has made people
00:35:15
prepared to do things differently and
00:35:16
you can see that on a micro level on day
00:35:19
to day basis you know you get people
00:35:21
fighting firm I mean I'm not making a
00:35:23
judgment call here but you get trade
00:35:25
unions who when the factory is about to
00:35:27
be closed down suddenly become very
00:35:29
cooperative on changing pension schemes
00:35:31
whereas previously were threatened they
00:35:33
were
00:35:34
threaten to strike over them yeah so
00:35:36
human systems have this capacity to
00:35:38
change their entanglement which changes
00:35:42
a saturation if I'm using woods terms
00:35:44
yeah and sometimes that's a break and
00:35:48
reconstruction now we're going through a
00:35:51
lot of that in industry at the moment
00:35:53
I'm in the high street I'm in the UK I'm
00:35:55
not sure about the states yet all right
00:35:57
but the high street in the UK is not
00:35:59
going to come back in terms of the big
00:36:02
stores because but interesting the small
00:36:05
stores may survive better at the small
00:36:09
specialist one so we could see a
00:36:10
resurrection of high street shopping a
00:36:12
destruction of out of town you know and
00:36:15
you know that those are sort of patents
00:36:18
society needs to be aware of but an
00:36:21
unwillingness to let go is one of the
00:36:24
reasons things don't change for us to
00:36:25
know which is were always continue to
00:36:29
draw my picture here which is back to
00:36:32
the sort of our idea that Cotter had
00:36:34
floated some years ago is that if you've
00:36:37
got this sort of crew that can be a
00:36:41
continuous Learning Network where
00:36:44
they're where we've got continuous
00:36:45
investment in learning into one of your
00:36:47
earlier points David and a low
00:36:49
conversation we need generalists not
00:36:51
specialists and we seem to have shoe on
00:36:53
the selves into a world of specialists
00:36:55
where we've got mono skilled employees
00:36:58
mono skilled team members where we need
00:37:01
people with multiple skills and able to
00:37:03
go across a range of different sort of
00:37:07
disciplines so we need this sort of
00:37:09
heavily or Tamannaah are heavily
00:37:12
autonomous but this this network of
00:37:13
teams that can constantly reform in this
00:37:16
crew resource management way which we
00:37:19
have a continuous investment in learning
00:37:21
in this learning organization is what is
00:37:23
what Toyota call it that can respond and
00:37:27
reform adaptively depending upon what
00:37:29
the demand is that called upon them and
00:37:32
then in the hierarchy side to create
00:37:34
that fragility to create that that that
00:37:37
that brittleness in that rebirth then
00:37:39
we've got to have some sort of elected
00:37:40
or elective type of leadership where as
00:37:43
a CEO CEO doesn't become a CEO
00:37:47
for decades or the because what ends up
00:37:50
happening then is you end up and I've
00:37:53
experienced this with narcissistic power
00:37:55
centers that will not make decisions
00:37:59
that need to be made and will not change
00:38:01
their direction because they're single
00:38:03
mindedly this sort of fixation bias and
00:38:05
what they want to achieve and no matter
00:38:07
how great we make the capability in the
00:38:10
organization that capability can't
00:38:12
function because the leadership
00:38:14
constrains it or inhibits it in a way
00:38:17
that prevents it from being adaptive how
00:38:21
you're bringing Cotter into this because
00:38:23
kata has the famous eight stages which
00:38:25
are terribly linear which involve vision
00:38:29
vision communication and execution so
00:38:31
it's kind of like added 1970s strategy
00:38:34
and I don't know why everybody takes it
00:38:35
seriously anymore so you're honestly I'm
00:38:38
think I'm not seeing so what is it
00:38:40
no it just ease it was just this concept
00:38:43
of a dual operating system where you've
00:38:45
got the hierarchy looking after the
00:38:48
needs that hierarchy is needed for and
00:38:51
then you've got this network of teams
00:38:53
which what he army of volunteers which
00:38:57
people from the hierarchy who
00:38:58
voluntarily put themselves into the
00:39:00
network for this adaptive capability now
00:39:03
that's as far as I take the analogy or
00:39:05
as far as I take the metaphor it's just
00:39:08
that idea that we need both but one
00:39:12
becomes an inhibiting constraint to the
00:39:15
other because this never changes the
00:39:17
hierarchy is pretty rigid and fixed
00:39:20
sometimes for decades but for many many
00:39:23
years so it doesn't matter about the
00:39:24
fluidity and the capability within the
00:39:27
network the hierarchy is constraining it
00:39:30
or inhibiting it with an inhibiting
00:39:32
constraint and it's that bit I'm
00:39:34
thinking of a way to get rid of nothing
00:39:36
is to look at what's the unit of
00:39:37
analysis so if the unit of analysis is
00:39:40
the system or the organization that I
00:39:42
think that's problematic if on the other
00:39:45
hand the unit of analysis is for example
00:39:47
constraints then it becomes less
00:39:49
problematic because you manage the
00:39:52
constraints and that gives freedom for
00:39:54
emergence which is kind of where we're
00:39:55
going with complexity theory in
00:39:57
organizations now stop talking about the
00:40:00
system as a whole
00:40:01
and start to identify constraints change
00:40:03
constraints see what happens
00:40:05
have constraints which a brittle have
00:40:07
constraints which you know fluid and so
00:40:10
on yeah and I think part of the problem
00:40:12
is and it comes back to the engineering
00:40:14
metaphor issue right yeah an engineer is
00:40:17
a constantly designing a whole system
00:40:19
and that's one of the other problems
00:40:20
with software it's kinda like and this
00:40:22
is where we came on scaffolding at one
00:40:24
point right is you're you're trying to
00:40:27
create designs which doesn't require you
00:40:30
to know the end point and which are
00:40:33
doesn't require you to work out what the
00:40:35
optimal structure is you want the system
00:40:37
to work that out for yourself and I
00:40:40
haven't got I mean if I was a Talib I
00:40:42
would now produce a catch phrase a book
00:40:44
cover and produce a best-selling book
00:40:46
comprising ninety percent invective and
00:40:48
tempers and novelty around that concept
00:40:51
that it's not anti fragile it's
00:40:54
something different I think you know
00:40:58
just tacking on to what you were saying
00:41:00
about you know electing people for
00:41:03
limited periods you know into the
00:41:05
hierarchy you know I think some of just
00:41:11
speaking from our political context some
00:41:13
of our biggest problems comes from they
00:41:14
because then people act with a very
00:41:17
short term view you know they've got
00:41:19
this for years in mind you know a new
00:41:21
person comes in they reinvent everything
00:41:23
you know so I think it it's very much a
00:41:26
contextual I think it would it would
00:41:28
differ from context to context but I
00:41:31
don't know if that would necessarily
00:41:35
solve the problem I think and the other
00:41:38
thing is this this idea of a learning
00:41:40
organization or this you know continuous
00:41:43
learning this brings us back to that
00:41:45
inherent tension between efficiency and
00:41:48
optimizing for your present kind of
00:41:51
context and success versus creating this
00:41:54
resilience or adaptive capacity or
00:41:56
whatever we're calling it because in
00:41:58
most of the companies where I work
00:41:59
people have no time to learn you know
00:42:02
all of the in event the these
00:42:04
organizations they make udemy available
00:42:06
to everybody and you know they've got
00:42:08
all these wonderful things up on the
00:42:09
walls like we're learning and people are
00:42:12
doing the
00:42:13
jobs of three or four people because you
00:42:15
know they let people go and they've got
00:42:16
hiring freezes so when must we learn I
00:42:20
think you know that is so we've stripped
00:42:22
all of the slack out of our
00:42:24
organizations and I think and you know
00:42:28
this kind of brings me back to the point
00:42:29
is when things are going well and we're
00:42:31
on this heavily this focus on on
00:42:34
effectiveness and cost-cutting etcetera
00:42:36
etcetera how do we maintain this and so
00:42:40
that we don't strip all the the the
00:42:44
slack out so that we do maintain you
00:42:47
know some kind of space for people that
00:42:51
you learn it's a true you yeah I mean
00:42:54
you've come hit on the key points and I
00:42:56
wrote something about this a few months
00:42:57
ago about being too lean and the fact
00:43:00
that people have abused what lean
00:43:02
actually means and there's this whole
00:43:03
nonsense debate about TPS and lean being
00:43:06
different things and actually inside
00:43:08
Toyota we talked we talked about lean we
00:43:11
use the word lean all the time so it
00:43:12
tends to be the people have never worked
00:43:14
a Toyota seem to have a problem with the
00:43:16
term but the reality of it is is that we
00:43:19
we use lean as a way that you just
00:43:21
described to remove people and to push
00:43:24
the burden to offshore somewhere whether
00:43:27
it was China or India or wherever some
00:43:30
other country which was lower cost for
00:43:32
manufacturing but we didn't have
00:43:34
resilient or a bus supply chains and we
00:43:36
didn't create that that cait that that
00:43:39
sort of resilience and robustness in
00:43:40
organizations where we are and I was
00:43:42
talking to an organization the other day
00:43:44
where their major clients people in
00:43:47
America
00:43:48
yeah they have no capacity in America
00:43:51
because everything has to be kept in
00:43:52
another country to keep the cost down
00:43:53
and then as soon as you disrupt the
00:43:56
supply chain of the logistics you
00:43:57
suddenly can't supply your customers so
00:43:59
your customers now in a mess and you're
00:44:01
in a mess because this whole thing was
00:44:03
too brittle there was no to use the term
00:44:06
again adaptive capacity was no way they
00:44:08
could adapt to that so when we came to
00:44:10
lean and I heard a phrase that was
00:44:12
coined in the UK Dave by somebody been
00:44:15
interviewed called economic sovereignty
00:44:17
where you know this was more looking at
00:44:20
a country level where basically or
00:44:23
countries are now having to sort of look
00:44:25
at local sort of eken
00:44:27
vyx sovereign tree rather than the sort
00:44:28
of global picture which is where they're
00:44:31
having elmerita some of my notes are
00:44:32
scribbling on this the other day because
00:44:33
what's happened is the just-in-time
00:44:36
mentality was just too late and and
00:44:40
actually if people study Kanban
00:44:41
correctly and study what oh no did then
00:44:44
we're talking about having sufficient
00:44:45
buffer in the system to meet the
00:44:48
just-in-time demand not eliminate all
00:44:50
the buffer which is what everybody did
00:44:52
and shove it 5,000 miles away and then
00:44:55
assume that was never gonna be any
00:44:57
fragility in that supply chain which of
00:44:59
course has now been proven so but this
00:45:02
whole mentality of we're too busy to
00:45:04
learn were too busy being busy to do
00:45:06
anything else has this nonsense has got
00:45:08
to stop and what this working from home
00:45:10
has taught us is that a lot of the stuff
00:45:13
we used to do in offices which had no
00:45:16
value isn't being done right now because
00:45:19
we haven't got the capability to do all
00:45:22
this wasteful nonsense so what are we
00:45:24
going to do when all this pandemic so
00:45:26
we're all going to shuffle back to the
00:45:27
office and then continue with all this
00:45:29
wasteful crap we used to do before or
00:45:32
we're gonna recognize that a lot of that
00:45:33
bureaucracy and red tape we're
00:45:35
inhibiting constraints and now we're
00:45:37
still focusing on enabling constraints
00:45:39
and actually repurposing that capability
00:45:41
but if people think that they can take a
00:45:43
you know get a certificate in one skill
00:45:45
and that will serve them well for the
00:45:47
rest of their life and their
00:45:49
organization's life they're delusional
00:45:51
they really need to be investing in
00:45:53
continuous learning and the whole Toyota
00:45:56
engineer model if you look at the chief
00:45:57
engineer model these over a period of
00:45:59
years they do every every type of job in
00:46:02
the entire lifecycle of that product
00:46:05
that they're going to be a chief
00:46:06
engineer for but we don't seem to do
00:46:09
that in other parts of the organization
00:46:10
Dave if there's another related issue
00:46:13
here which is the danger of professional
00:46:15
management in some areas so the example
00:46:20
I often give is by going to an American
00:46:22
Hospital the the guy in charge of the
00:46:24
hospital or the woman in charge of the
00:46:25
hospital generally comes in wearing the
00:46:27
white coat having been on the wards
00:46:29
because they're all doctors if I go into
00:46:31
a British Hospital yeah and the
00:46:33
advantage is I can go in without her
00:46:35
getting a bill that if we go back for
00:46:37
the moment
00:46:39
basically the manager is wearing a suit
00:46:42
surrounded by half a dozen
00:46:43
administrators because they've gone down
00:46:46
a professional management route and the
00:46:48
Americans very sensible they have lots
00:46:50
of people like a lien in the fence TV
00:46:52
series and I think we don't do enough
00:46:55
for that it was always a joke - one of
00:46:57
the reasons the British car industry
00:46:58
failed even in the German ownership is
00:47:01
in German German industry they assume
00:47:03
the chief engineer will be the chief
00:47:04
executive officer so when that in
00:47:07
Britain they assumed the chief
00:47:08
accountant was the chief executive
00:47:10
officer so when a chief engineer came in
00:47:12
nobody took him seriously
00:47:13
that was my remembering the Uni part
00:47:16
explaining that to me so I think that
00:47:18
and it comes back to his issue there are
00:47:19
some things where in order to be
00:47:21
effective you have to know things and
00:47:23
this is my about adaptation of Fulani we
00:47:26
always know more than we can say we will
00:47:28
we'll say more than we can write down
00:47:29
and that's kind of a spectrum and where
00:47:33
you are on that actually is critical to
00:47:35
organizational design so that there are
00:47:38
some things without a 10 or 15 year of
00:47:40
friendship you just can't make the
00:47:42
decisions you just can't do it
00:47:43
yeah or you'll create artificial
00:47:45
processes around them yes so that kind
00:47:48
of brings us to the end of the time box
00:47:50
I'm not sure we're necessarily got into
00:47:53
some of the practical aspects that I was
00:47:55
hoping because let me tell you any even
00:48:05
number software releases are usually
00:48:07
shitty and not very good releases are
00:48:11
ever any good so this is probably an
00:48:13
example of those even number and they
00:48:16
mean hours after wash mountains where
00:48:18
I've suffered near fatal injury I feel
00:48:20
this is there I will be alright so thank
00:48:26
you so much Pete almond being
00:48:27
misgendered I haven't hopefully we're
00:48:29
getting back for the next one yeah take
00:48:32
care of yourselves and yeah particularly
00:48:35
you Nigel in the States at the moment
00:48:37
must be Coulson