Is Xi Jinping’s China on a path to war? Mehdi Hasan & Victor Gao | Head to Head

00:47:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmYdpHtOv_E

Sintesi

TLDRAng video ay naglalaman ng isang debate sa pagitan ng host at si Victor Gao, isang Tsino na tagapagsalita, tungkol sa mga ambisyon ng China sa ilalim ni Pangulong Xi Jinping, ang pagtaas ng militarisasyon, at mga isyu ng karapatang pantao, lalo na sa Xinjiang. Ang naganap na pag-uusap ay nagsira sa mga isyu ng nakakabahalang relasyon ng China sa mga kalapit nitong bansa, mga pagkakaiba sa pananaw, at mga banta na dala ng militarisasyon. Maraming mga eksperto ang nagbigay ng kanilang opinyon, na nag-highlight ng mga kasalukuyang alitan at mga pag-aalala sa pag-unlad ng human rights sa ilalim ng pamahalaan ng China.

Punti di forza

  • 🌍 Sa kabila ng pagtaas ng militarisasyon ng China, may pangamba ang mga karatig-bansa sa kanilang seguridad.
  • 🤝 Si Victor Gao, reporter, ay pinagtanggol ang mga patakaran ng gobyerno at kasalukuyang estado ng Taiwan at Xinjiang.
  • 🚢 Ang pagbuo ng mas malaking hukbo at presensya sa South China Sea ay nagpapataas ng tensyon sa rehiyon.
  • 📈 Ipinahayag ng mga eksperto na ang mga patakaran ni Xi Jinping ay naging mas repressed.
  • 📉 Maraming mga aliting teritoryal ang may direktang epekto sa pandaigdigang kaayusan.

Linea temporale

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Ang mundo sa kasalukuyan ay mukhang nahahati at puno ng kawalang-katiyakan, mula sa Ukraine hanggang Gaza. Ang mga pandaigdigang kapangyarihan ay sinubok, habang ang Tsina ay patuloy na umaangat bilang hamon sa pandaigdigang kaayusan. Ang presidente ng Tsina na si Xi Jinping ay naglalayon ng mataas na ambisyon sa kanyang ikatlong termino.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Ang mga alitan sa teritoryo ay nagdudulot ng takot na maaaring humantong sa mas malawak na labanan na may malawak na implikasyon. Sa kanilang mga paghahambing, patuloy ang mga pagsasanay militar ng Tsina sa paligid ng Taiwan, na nagpapataas ng pangamba sa posibleng pag-atake mula sa Tsina.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Ayon kay Victor Gao, ang gastusin ng militar ng Tsina ay pangunahin para sa kapayapaan at depensa, ngunit ang mga kalapit na bansa tulad ng Japan at India ay nag-aalala sa lumalakas na kapangyarihan ng militar ng Tsina.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Sa kabila ng mga pahayag ni Gao tungkol sa kapayapaan, ang aktibong paghahanda ng militar ng Tsina sa mga isyu ng Taiwan ay nag-udyok ng mga tanong kung handa na ang Tsina para sa isang pag-atake. Walang ibang Opsyon buz at ipinapakita ang determinadong determinasyon ng Tsina.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Naging pusong usapan ang pagkakaroon ng pagtutol sa Taiwan, na sinasabi ni Gao na bahagi ng Tsina. Gayunpaman, ipinakita na ang kaunting suporta para sa saklaw ng pakikipag-isa mula sa mga tao sa Taiwan ay nag-epekto sa takbo ng usapan.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Kinausap ni M Hassen si Steven Chan tungkol sa mga opinyon ng mga tao sa Taiwan ukol sa Tsina. Ayon kay Chan, lalong lumakas ang kanilang pagnanais na manatili na nakapag-iisa, na nagpapalakas sa ideya ng pagtutol sa pamumuno ng Tsina.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Tinalakay din ang mga isyu ng karapatang pantao, partikular ang sitwasyong Weiger, kung saan sinasabi ni Gao na ang mga ulat ukol sa mga paglabag sa karapatang pantao ay hindi nagpapakita ng katotohanan. Sa kabilang banda, isinasalaysay ni rahan Assad ang karanasan ng kanyang pamilya sa mga internment camp ng Tsina.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:47:26

    Sa unang bahagi, inilarawan din ang mga pagkilos ng gobyerno ng Tsina upang masugpo ang mga nag-aatake sa kanilang estado. Nagsimula na ang mga eksperto at mga taong-bayan na makilahok sa mas malalim na talakayan upang tukuyin ang mga epekto ng paghahari ni Xi Jinping sa Tsina at sa pandaigdigang politika.

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Mappa mentale

Video Domande e Risposte

  • Ano ang mga pangunahing isyu na tinalakay sa video?

    Kasama dito ang militarisasyon ng China, mga alitan sa Taiwan, at paglabag sa mga karapatang pantao sa Xinjiang.

  • Paano nagbago ang ugnayan ng China sa mga kalapit na bansa?

    Dahil sa militarisasyon ng China, maraming bansa tulad ng Japan at India ang nag-aalala tungkol sa seguridad at territorial na mga alitan.

  • Ano ang posisyon ni Victor Gao tungkol sa mga isyu ng Taiwan at Xinjiang?

    Pinagtanggol niya ang mga hakbang ng gobyerno ng China at itinataguyod ang ideya na ang Taiwan at Xinjiang ay bahagi ng China.

  • Ano ang reaksyon ng mga eksperto sa mga patakaran ni Xi Jinping?

    Karamihan sa mga eksperto ay nagbigay ng kritikal na pagsusuri hinggil sa konsolidasyon ng kapangyarihan at repression ng mga karapatan.

  • Bakit mahalaga ang isyu ng Taiwan sa China?

    Dahil sa pagtingin ng China na ang Taiwan ay bahagi ng kanilang teritoryo at ang kanilang layunin ay ang muling pag-isa.

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Scorrimento automatico:
  • 00:00:02
    from Ukraine to Gaza the world seems
  • 00:00:04
    more divided and uncertain than it's
  • 00:00:06
    been for years Global powers and Western
  • 00:00:09
    alliances have been put to the test and
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    amid the turmoil China is rising to
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    challenge the world order Chinese
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    president Xi Jinping now in his third
  • 00:00:19
    term in office has high ambitions
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    [Music]
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    territorial disputes have sparked fears
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    of a larger conflict that could have
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    Regional and Global implications you
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    have approached the waters near Chinese
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    J including in the contested Waters of
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    the South China Sea your curse leave and
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    keep F over and in Taiwan where the
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    threat of a Chinese military Invasion
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    looms
  • 00:00:57
    larger meanwhile at home attacks on
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    basic freedoms and human rights have
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    become more severe like in Shin Jang
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    where China continues to commit serious
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    human rights abuses some say a genocide
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    against the weager Muslims so how far
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    will China's autocratic Vision reach and
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    will long simmering tension with the
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    West hit a boiling
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    point I'm M Hassen and I've come here to
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    London's legendary Conway Hall to go
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    head-to-head with Victor gal he's vice
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    president of of the center for China and
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    globalization in Beijing former
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    interpreter for the late Chinese leader
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    Deng shiao ping and a proud defender of
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    the People's Republic I'll ask him about
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    China's Global Ambitions and its
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    aggressive Crackdown on human rights and
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    civil
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    liberties tonight I'll also be joined by
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    three experts Steven Chan a professor at
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    the University of London's School of
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    Oriental and African studies rahan Assad
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    a human rights lawyer of weer Heritage
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    and Martin Jake author of the bestseller
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    when China rules the world and a
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    political commentator on
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    [Music]
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    [Applause]
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    China Victor gal thank you so much for
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    joining me on head-to head this evening
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    here in London thank you for having me
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    China has upped its military spending
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    it's expanding its nuclear Arsenal it
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    now has the biggest Navy in the world
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    Chinese president Xi Jinping has said
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    that the country's military should be
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    capable of quote fighting and winning
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    wars and told the military to focus all
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    your energy on fighting improve your
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    capability to win Victor who do you want
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    to fight and who do you want to win
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    against first of all the Chinese
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    military spending is the second largest
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    in the world but it is only a fraction
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    of that of the United States and China
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    has a very uh difficult geopolitical
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    situation China has 14 land and
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    neighboring countries all together and
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    six Maritime Nations uh for China
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    therefore China's defense defensive in
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    nature is not for fighting anyone except
  • 00:03:22
    those who want to invade China or to
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    launch a war against China China's
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    military spending is for peace rather
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    than war and War will be forced upon
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    China and China need to fight back you
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    say it's for peace but your neighbors
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    don't agree your neighbors are pretty
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    worried about you you go through the
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    list Japan has sounded the alarm saying
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    your military buildup is very serious
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    concern to them India is worried about
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    China on its border and the Philippines
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    president has warned that China is
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    becoming a more pronounced and worrisome
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    threat he says those are the elected
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    governments of countries representing
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    over 1.6 billion people in Asia this is
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    not the United States this is not the
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    West this is Asian neighbors saying
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    we're worried about China may you
  • 00:04:03
    mentioned the three of the neighboring
  • 00:04:05
    countries of China uh let's talk about
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    one of them one each of them very
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    quickly Japan unconditionally
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    surrendered not only to the United
  • 00:04:14
    States but also to China in
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    1945 and if you read very carefully the
  • 00:04:22
    unconditional surrender document that
  • 00:04:24
    Japan signed then you will know how
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    Japan need to conduct its foreign
  • 00:04:29
    affairs as well as its military troops
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    uh with China and with all those
  • 00:04:34
    countries that Japan unconditionally
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    surrendered for India is a great nation
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    and there is a territorial dispute
  • 00:04:41
    between China and India but that dispute
  • 00:04:45
    was not created by China neither was it
  • 00:04:48
    created by India it was created or left
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    behind by the British Indian uh
  • 00:04:54
    government that's great history lesson
  • 00:04:56
    but right now China in 24 the defense
  • 00:05:00
    spending is going up by 7% the most for
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    5 years you've had 29 consecutive years
  • 00:05:06
    of military expenditure growth the most
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    of any country in the world since 2022
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    China has increased military drills
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    around Taiwan it's escalated since the
  • 00:05:14
    new Taiwanese president was inaugurated
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    in May China is not a fan of him since
  • 00:05:18
    then there's been almost daily activity
  • 00:05:20
    involving China's warships drones cyber
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    attacks against Taiwan China is getting
  • 00:05:24
    ready to invade Taiwan isn't it there is
  • 00:05:27
    only one China Taiwan is part of China
  • 00:05:30
    and the government of the People's
  • 00:05:32
    Republic of China is the sole legitimate
  • 00:05:35
    government for the totality of China the
  • 00:05:38
    exact status between the two sides of
  • 00:05:40
    the Taiwan state is The Unfinished Civil
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    War back in
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    1949 so ever since the beginning of the
  • 00:05:47
    1980s China does not want to use a war
  • 00:05:49
    to solve this unification problem you
  • 00:05:52
    don't want to use a war but you're
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    surrounding it with ships drones cyber
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    attacks and making lots of threats each
  • 00:05:57
    time when the separatists in Taiwan want
  • 00:06:00
    to push the edge of the envelope they
  • 00:06:02
    will come across more and more
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    demonstration of the commitment of the
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    Chinese Nation to eventually achieve
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    peaceful reunification or otherwise
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    that's the lious test your defense
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    minister said anyone who dares to pursue
  • 00:06:16
    independence for Taiwan will be crushed
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    into pieces and face destruction sounds
  • 00:06:21
    like a truly peaceful guy that's a real
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    statement because if the separatists if
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    the separatists really want to put P the
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    edge of the envelope with the aid of
  • 00:06:32
    some big country for example which wants
  • 00:06:34
    to use Taiwan as a proxy in its own
  • 00:06:37
    geopolitical rivalry against China then
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    wait until you see what will happen
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    reunification will be achieved and China
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    is the only permanent member of the
  • 00:06:48
    United Nations security Council which
  • 00:06:50
    has not yet achieved a complete
  • 00:06:53
    reunification what I'm what I I'm always
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    amused with this phrase reunification
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    because if it's one China that clearly
  • 00:06:59
    it's not One China clearly you're
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    accepting by definition if you need to
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    reunify it they are doing their own
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    thing and why this obsession with Taiwan
  • 00:07:06
    you are a country of 3.7 million square
  • 00:07:09
    miles a population 60 times that of
  • 00:07:11
    Taiwan economy 20 times the size of
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    Taiwan why are you obsessed with Taiwan
  • 00:07:16
    why not just leave them be in terms of
  • 00:07:19
    Defending China's sovereignty and
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    territorial Integrity any inch of land
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    is not one inch too much any one single
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    person is not one one person too many so
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    we need to achieve reunification as even
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    though they don't want to be part of
  • 00:07:35
    your country 12% of the people of Taiwan
  • 00:07:38
    say they want to reunify with China
  • 00:07:40
    12% you can't get more unpopular than
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    that in thaty it's not up to the people
  • 00:07:45
    in Taiwan to decide about the one China
  • 00:07:48
    policy you're very blunt in your
  • 00:07:49
    disregard for people's views freedoms
  • 00:07:52
    dignity you say that you don't care
  • 00:07:53
    about what they think you also said in
  • 00:07:55
    an interview with the French newspaper
  • 00:07:56
    lemond once we get the island back we'll
  • 00:07:59
    have to ask everyone's Origins those who
  • 00:08:01
    have Japanese ancestry who you basicly
  • 00:08:04
    say cons constitute 10% of the
  • 00:08:05
    population will have to pledge loyalty
  • 00:08:08
    to reunification and writing otherwise
  • 00:08:10
    will'll have to help them leave you're
  • 00:08:13
    basically calling for the ethnic
  • 00:08:14
    cleansing of 2.3 million people in
  • 00:08:16
    Taiwan no you remember back in
  • 00:08:19
    1945 when Japan unconditionally
  • 00:08:22
    surrendered a lot of people in Taiwan
  • 00:08:25
    who originally came from Japan they were
  • 00:08:28
    the rulers of uh Taiwan at the time they
  • 00:08:31
    stay behind because of the magnanimity
  • 00:08:34
    of the Chinese Nation now several
  • 00:08:37
    decades later they account for about 10%
  • 00:08:40
    of the local population in Taiwan now if
  • 00:08:44
    you really do your homework you will
  • 00:08:46
    realize that those Die Hard Taiwanese
  • 00:08:49
    separatists include many of these
  • 00:08:52
    Japanese but okay but you would get rid
  • 00:08:54
    of them you would get rid of 2.3 million
  • 00:08:56
    people no after the reunification
  • 00:08:58
    everyone in Taiwan need to make a pledge
  • 00:09:00
    whether they acknowledge there is only
  • 00:09:02
    one China and Taiwan is part of China
  • 00:09:04
    and if they don't make that pledge they
  • 00:09:05
    us those who pledge wow for the one
  • 00:09:09
    China policy they are local you didn't
  • 00:09:11
    by the way you didn't say everyone you
  • 00:09:13
    said of Japanese descent that is
  • 00:09:14
    literally ethnical you're picking people
  • 00:09:16
    by their ethnic Heritage making them do
  • 00:09:17
    a loyalty test otherwise they have to
  • 00:09:19
    get out of the country they've is not a
  • 00:09:20
    loyalty test here for example in Britain
  • 00:09:23
    if you are a British citizen you need to
  • 00:09:24
    support the monarchy you cannot say I no
  • 00:09:28
    I'm standing in Britain don't support
  • 00:09:29
    the monarchy I don't like King Charles
  • 00:09:31
    no you cannot say no I just said it m I
  • 00:09:33
    literally just said it you cannot take
  • 00:09:35
    any action to oppose the monarchy system
  • 00:09:37
    but I don't have to sign a pledge saying
  • 00:09:38
    I support King Charles well each country
  • 00:09:40
    is different we are talking about China
  • 00:09:43
    China is very and China has one policy
  • 00:09:45
    which is part of the Constitution
  • 00:09:47
    involves people in Taiwan who don't want
  • 00:09:49
    to be part of your country let's bring
  • 00:09:50
    in our panel who are waiting to come in
  • 00:09:52
    and join let's see what they think I'm
  • 00:09:53
    joined by Steven uh Chan professor at
  • 00:09:55
    the University of London School of
  • 00:09:56
    Oriental and African studies um if
  • 00:09:58
    you're in Taiwan today how worried are
  • 00:10:01
    you about Al looming Invasion I'm not in
  • 00:10:03
    Taiwan today I'm going to be visiting
  • 00:10:04
    next year I've been there five times in
  • 00:10:07
    all of the great cities of Taiwan and
  • 00:10:10
    what I've noticed most conspicuously is
  • 00:10:12
    that nobody I've talked to wants to
  • 00:10:13
    rejoin or reunify with China because of
  • 00:10:17
    their sense of freedom and their sense
  • 00:10:19
    of
  • 00:10:20
    self-determination so I think that if
  • 00:10:22
    you're going to say our sovereignty
  • 00:10:24
    matters more than your desire for your
  • 00:10:26
    own self-determination and freedom then
  • 00:10:28
    you're doing something that will not
  • 00:10:29
    make you popular in Taiwan and you won't
  • 00:10:32
    win the argument for Chinese sovereignty
  • 00:10:34
    over the island Martin uh Martin Jakes
  • 00:10:37
    is here with us author of the
  • 00:10:38
    bestselling book when China rules the
  • 00:10:39
    world Martin you've said in the past
  • 00:10:41
    that China cannot should not be seen
  • 00:10:43
    through a solely Western lens so I and I
  • 00:10:46
    agree with you and there's issues there
  • 00:10:48
    but I began the show by asking Victor
  • 00:10:49
    about Japan and India and the
  • 00:10:52
    Philippines separate Taiwan just the
  • 00:10:53
    issues in the region do you think China
  • 00:10:55
    is responsible for some of those issues
  • 00:10:57
    all of those issues none of those issues
  • 00:10:59
    well China is obviously involved in
  • 00:11:01
    inevitably in all of those issues um I
  • 00:11:05
    think that uh that actually if you look
  • 00:11:08
    at the rise of China over the last you
  • 00:11:11
    know 30 40 years spectacular biggest
  • 00:11:14
    change we've ever seen in history really
  • 00:11:17
    and uh inevitably that is changing
  • 00:11:21
    everything in the region in the world uh
  • 00:11:24
    that doesn't but the remarkable thing
  • 00:11:26
    I'd say Med about China's R is how you
  • 00:11:30
    quoted the military figures and so on
  • 00:11:32
    but China has not fought any wars since
  • 00:11:34
    1979 if you compare that with America
  • 00:11:38
    Europe Japan at the same stage of
  • 00:11:41
    development they were they were
  • 00:11:42
    extremely aggressive um let's talk human
  • 00:11:45
    rights Victor you've called Wagers in
  • 00:11:47
    China's shinjang Province your brothers
  • 00:11:49
    and sisters how do you feel about the
  • 00:11:51
    fact that at least half a million some
  • 00:11:53
    say more of your brothers and sisters
  • 00:11:55
    are being detained in camps by the
  • 00:11:58
    Chinese government that's 5% % of the
  • 00:12:00
    adult weager population one of the
  • 00:12:02
    highest imprisonment detention rates in
  • 00:12:04
    the world Med the weagles are proud
  • 00:12:07
    ethnic group one of the
  • 00:12:10
    56 ethnic nationalities in China The
  • 00:12:13
    Wiggles as far as I'm concerned are my
  • 00:12:16
    true brothers and sisters I know many of
  • 00:12:18
    them I travel to Shin Jang regularly and
  • 00:12:21
    I talk to many other wigos now if anyone
  • 00:12:24
    is serious about accusing China of
  • 00:12:27
    practicing mass in Justice to the
  • 00:12:30
    weagles give me the evidence I think
  • 00:12:33
    just did Human Rights Watch say half a
  • 00:12:35
    million people detained over the years
  • 00:12:36
    in recent years you keep quote Human
  • 00:12:38
    Rights Watch and I tell you do you know
  • 00:12:40
    where they got those numbers from I
  • 00:12:42
    don't know can I tell you I I don't know
  • 00:12:44
    I thought you were the exper you to
  • 00:12:45
    shinjang you've spoken to wegers you
  • 00:12:47
    never heard these numbers I do not know
  • 00:12:49
    where did they get the source so their
  • 00:12:51
    source is the shinjang high people's
  • 00:12:53
    procurator uh which has published its
  • 00:12:55
    own statistics shinjang official body
  • 00:12:57
    which says it's convicted 54 4,826
  • 00:13:00
    people prosecuted in the region since
  • 00:13:01
    2017 the United Nations office for human
  • 00:13:04
    rights looked at satellite footage they
  • 00:13:06
    say 10 to 20% of the population amnesty
  • 00:13:09
    estimates a million people in camps half
  • 00:13:11
    a million is a conservative number many
  • 00:13:13
    if you called that organization please
  • 00:13:16
    be assured that that organization has
  • 00:13:18
    been completely discredited for the
  • 00:13:21
    false information they every so this I
  • 00:13:24
    love this game we're playing you give
  • 00:13:25
    give me a source I give you a source
  • 00:13:27
    they're discredited they've said
  • 00:13:28
    falsehoods how can let me ask you a
  • 00:13:30
    question how many people are in
  • 00:13:31
    detention in shinjang you give me a
  • 00:13:33
    number listen if you look at sh you give
  • 00:13:36
    me a number if you look and I do not
  • 00:13:38
    have the number why not yeah hold on you
  • 00:13:40
    can't say it's not half a million and
  • 00:13:41
    then say you don't have a number I have
  • 00:13:43
    a number I have sources how many people
  • 00:13:45
    do you think a det let me give you my
  • 00:13:46
    reason no I go to shinjang a lot I
  • 00:13:49
    travel almost your brothers and sisters
  • 00:13:51
    you go there a lot but you can't tell me
  • 00:13:53
    how many people are in detention listen
  • 00:13:55
    they are happier they enjoy their life
  • 00:13:57
    they enjoy their Muslim practice and
  • 00:13:59
    traditions listen how many people are in
  • 00:14:01
    detention Victor many let me be
  • 00:14:03
    philosophical no don't be philosophical
  • 00:14:05
    be numerical how many people are in
  • 00:14:07
    detention you said not to no to half a
  • 00:14:09
    million how about okay let's quarter of
  • 00:14:11
    a million let me let me let me finish my
  • 00:14:13
    point nope if you answer the question
  • 00:14:15
    you can't filibuster Victor on the show
  • 00:14:17
    anyone many do think Independence they
  • 00:14:20
    will be dwelt with in how many of them
  • 00:14:23
    are in court and how many detention the
  • 00:14:24
    very small minority so you don't have a
  • 00:14:26
    number you say they're all happy but you
  • 00:14:28
    won't let in dependent investigators you
  • 00:14:30
    won't letting journalists to go there
  • 00:14:31
    why not there I will be happy to escort
  • 00:14:34
    you to Jing Jang really I can make that
  • 00:14:36
    promise I will speak to the Chinese
  • 00:14:38
    government here's the problem Chinese I
  • 00:14:40
    don't want escort I don't want minders I
  • 00:14:41
    want to go freely will you allow that I
  • 00:14:44
    do not made that decision oh a moment
  • 00:14:47
    ago you were going to make all sorts of
  • 00:14:48
    interruptions suddenly I said let me go
  • 00:14:50
    freely and speak to weas freely can I do
  • 00:14:52
    that with no minders no Chinese
  • 00:14:54
    government escort I will be happy to
  • 00:14:56
    make your case oh just now you said
  • 00:14:58
    you'd organize it now we're about make a
  • 00:14:59
    case you can't guarantee uh rahan Assad
  • 00:15:02
    is a senior fellow at the Atlantic
  • 00:15:03
    Council international human rights
  • 00:15:04
    lawyer you are a weager uh who Victor
  • 00:15:07
    says brothers and sisters your literal
  • 00:15:10
    brother has been held in an internment
  • 00:15:13
    camp in shinjang since 2016 I believe
  • 00:15:15
    rahan tell us what happened to your
  • 00:15:17
    brother and what is your response to
  • 00:15:19
    Victor to what you've heard and what is
  • 00:15:20
    the latest on your brother if you don't
  • 00:15:22
    mind sharing with us yeah my brother
  • 00:15:24
    Akbar Assad is a prominent Tech
  • 00:15:25
    entrepreneur in fact your own media
  • 00:15:27
    Outlet called him bright star in the
  • 00:15:29
    tech world right before his detention he
  • 00:15:32
    was invited on a state Galla dinner and
  • 00:15:35
    then he disappeared how could you
  • 00:15:37
    explain
  • 00:15:39
    now M again in China we have about 20
  • 00:15:43
    Muslim ethnic groups you need to ask one
  • 00:15:46
    question why the extremism existed
  • 00:15:50
    mostly among the wial communities
  • 00:15:53
    because there are extremists among the
  • 00:15:55
    wigo community who want to separate Shin
  • 00:15:58
    Jang away from your brother been
  • 00:16:00
    convicted of any supported by CIA and
  • 00:16:02
    other Western
  • 00:16:04
    organizations that's the real truth hold
  • 00:16:06
    on talk to the hazaks they don't support
  • 00:16:09
    has your brother been convicted of a
  • 00:16:10
    crime um according to un there's no
  • 00:16:13
    trial has taken place he just forcibly
  • 00:16:15
    disappeared actually it amount the en
  • 00:16:17
    Force disappearance but according to the
  • 00:16:19
    Chinese government he committed a crime
  • 00:16:20
    of inciting ethnic discrimination while
  • 00:16:23
    he's a systematically oppressed and when
  • 00:16:25
    I challenge that decision because under
  • 00:16:28
    under the Chinese law if you're
  • 00:16:30
    committed with the alleged crime that
  • 00:16:32
    you you have three years sentences but
  • 00:16:34
    he got 15 years how do you in justify
  • 00:16:36
    that then they switch the crime so how
  • 00:16:39
    do you even explain this is a rule of
  • 00:16:40
    law system you mentioned that if people
  • 00:16:43
    are not pro- independent then they're
  • 00:16:45
    fine in shinjang my brother by no means
  • 00:16:48
    is pro- independent in fact your media
  • 00:16:50
    Outlet sees daily media invited him to
  • 00:16:53
    exchange information did he split the
  • 00:16:56
    country when he visited beij you okay
  • 00:16:58
    with the treatment of her brother M in
  • 00:17:00
    front of this very Augusto body let me
  • 00:17:02
    make several very brief points the real
  • 00:17:05
    crime involved by some of the wigo
  • 00:17:07
    people are agitating for shinjang
  • 00:17:10
    Independence they violate the one China
  • 00:17:13
    policy Now set separate from that you
  • 00:17:16
    know different communities May F find
  • 00:17:19
    their own different problems which need
  • 00:17:21
    to be sorted out in the cuse of Law and
  • 00:17:25
    I hope but our brother's been detained
  • 00:17:26
    for eight years well I did not know the
  • 00:17:28
    ch I hope I can help you to really look
  • 00:17:31
    at the case at the accusation against
  • 00:17:33
    him I hope your brother is not guilty of
  • 00:17:37
    inciting for separatism of Shing Jang if
  • 00:17:40
    that is the case then let the law take
  • 00:17:43
    its CA well your media out that called
  • 00:17:46
    him a model citizen who is a promoter of
  • 00:17:48
    ethnic unity in sh have you been able to
  • 00:17:51
    speak to your brother or no not at all
  • 00:17:52
    like you know for eight years he's
  • 00:17:54
    forcibly disappeared um up until like
  • 00:17:58
    last months for the first time my
  • 00:17:59
    parents saw him what kind of justice
  • 00:18:01
    system is that you're making a mockery
  • 00:18:04
    you're not just detaining them Victor
  • 00:18:06
    they're being tortured numerous
  • 00:18:08
    testimonies the UN has collected are you
  • 00:18:10
    okay with that M when you talk about
  • 00:18:12
    torture think about Guantanamo Bay
  • 00:18:14
    prison oh my word rather than in Shin
  • 00:18:16
    Jang Shin Jang is a place of great peace
  • 00:18:20
    and
  • 00:18:21
    stability hold on Victor the accounts of
  • 00:18:24
    detainees include being beaten with
  • 00:18:25
    Batts electric Batts while strapped in a
  • 00:18:27
    So-Cal tiger ch
  • 00:18:29
    158 being subjected to interrogation
  • 00:18:31
    with water poured on their faces
  • 00:18:33
    prolonged solitary confinement forced to
  • 00:18:35
    sit motionless on stools for long
  • 00:18:37
    periods like this you're okay with this
  • 00:18:38
    this is the proud China probably you are
  • 00:18:40
    reading the case in Iraq committed by
  • 00:18:43
    the American solders I'm reading the U
  • 00:18:45
    report in August 2022 from detainees who
  • 00:18:48
    came out of camps in Shin Jang you're
  • 00:18:50
    brothers and sisters but these brothers
  • 00:18:51
    and sisters you don't seem to give a
  • 00:18:52
    damn about how do you know any torture
  • 00:18:54
    happened in Iraq out of Interest I know
  • 00:18:57
    how I know for sure how I talked to the
  • 00:18:59
    Iraqi Ambassador in Beijing okay he wept
  • 00:19:01
    in front of me and I'm sure Ran's
  • 00:19:04
    parents have wept and you don't seem to
  • 00:19:06
    care and I hope you will tell your
  • 00:19:08
    brother be a staunch supporter of one
  • 00:19:11
    China policy be a proud
  • 00:19:14
    Chinese she can't tell him cuz she can't
  • 00:19:16
    speak to him because you deny access
  • 00:19:19
    Victor Victor she can't speak to him are
  • 00:19:21
    you going to arrange it are you going to
  • 00:19:22
    arrange a visit now I'd be happy to help
  • 00:19:24
    you make a phone call there's a lot of
  • 00:19:25
    promises being made here guys you should
  • 00:19:27
    uh follow up on this office you are all
  • 00:19:29
    Witnesses we Are Witnesses indeed let me
  • 00:19:31
    bring in Martin Jake Martin when you
  • 00:19:32
    hear people say basically there's no
  • 00:19:34
    torture everyone's making it up there's
  • 00:19:36
    nobody in detention come on that's
  • 00:19:38
    ridiculous is it not Martin well I mean
  • 00:19:40
    I don't know all the details of the
  • 00:19:42
    situation in ch Shin Jang but clearly
  • 00:19:45
    there's been a big problem for a long
  • 00:19:48
    time in Shin Jang in terms of the
  • 00:19:52
    relationship between the weer and the
  • 00:19:54
    Han and that came to a head in 2009
  • 00:19:59
    when there was a demonstration and 200
  • 00:20:02
    people were killed by by the weer then
  • 00:20:05
    the Chinese Chinese inflicted the same
  • 00:20:08
    kind of damage on the so this is not
  • 00:20:11
    this is this is a deep problem in my
  • 00:20:14
    view and it's not easily passed up
  • 00:20:16
    there's no other problem in China of
  • 00:20:18
    this kind yeah but people consider
  • 00:20:22
    that's a pretty big problem it's a very
  • 00:20:23
    big problem for them yeah and I do the
  • 00:20:25
    other thing bet I'd say is that um um
  • 00:20:29
    the point that's being made about
  • 00:20:31
    separatism is true that I think that
  • 00:20:33
    what the 30 million Muslims in China the
  • 00:20:37
    ha is the biggest single minority they
  • 00:20:39
    have they are completely integrated but
  • 00:20:42
    the problem the problem is shin Jang is
  • 00:20:44
    clearly the issue of separatism Stephen
  • 00:20:47
    let me ask you this question Victor's
  • 00:20:49
    making a lot of promises tonight about
  • 00:20:50
    me going to shinjang and rean going to
  • 00:20:52
    Shin everyone's going to be
  • 00:20:54
    fine how how safe how okay are you with
  • 00:20:58
    visiting China how how free do you think
  • 00:21:00
    you are when you go to China when I go
  • 00:21:03
    to China and I haven't been for some
  • 00:21:05
    time I'm watched almost
  • 00:21:07
    247 there's always someone I can spot is
  • 00:21:10
    trailing me so I know when my hotel room
  • 00:21:14
    is upgraded suddenly to a spacious Suite
  • 00:21:16
    I'm now in a place which is bugged so
  • 00:21:20
    someone who's a mild critic and a
  • 00:21:22
    scholarly critic like me doesn't feel
  • 00:21:24
    safe in China by contrast I feel safer
  • 00:21:28
    in time iwan Victor when you hear Steven
  • 00:21:31
    say he doesn't feel that safe going to
  • 00:21:33
    China prefers going to Taiwan when we
  • 00:21:35
    talk about freedom of speech for example
  • 00:21:38
    in China I live in the United States of
  • 00:21:40
    America where I can say that Donald
  • 00:21:42
    Trump is a I don't know hypothetically
  • 00:21:44
    an orang faed
  • 00:21:46
    narcissist I also live here in the UK
  • 00:21:48
    I'm British here you have Rishi sunak
  • 00:21:50
    the former prime minister was called a
  • 00:21:52
    pints siiz Loser by a labor
  • 00:21:54
    politician um no one in China has that
  • 00:21:58
    kind of fright freedom to talk about
  • 00:22:00
    their government to talk about President
  • 00:22:01
    Xi Jinping in that way you can't say
  • 00:22:03
    anything like you wouldn't dare say
  • 00:22:05
    anything like that because you know what
  • 00:22:06
    will happen to you when you go home you
  • 00:22:08
    know what will happen to your family
  • 00:22:09
    that's what China is M if you do
  • 00:22:11
    anything write anything email or chat to
  • 00:22:15
    your friends about taking any action
  • 00:22:17
    against let's say prime minister of
  • 00:22:19
    Britain president of the United States
  • 00:22:22
    you'll be dwelt with swiftly Victor
  • 00:22:24
    you're a master of not what I said I
  • 00:22:27
    said was called a pint-sized loser would
  • 00:22:30
    you call Xi Jinping a pint-sized loser
  • 00:22:32
    many each country has different
  • 00:22:34
    sensitivities in UK so you're admitting
  • 00:22:36
    you can't criticize the Chinese
  • 00:22:37
    government no no no you can criticize
  • 00:22:39
    the government if you are positive inity
  • 00:22:42
    you can criticize the government if
  • 00:22:44
    you're positive is that the new
  • 00:22:46
    philosophy no if you can come up with
  • 00:22:47
    your you got to come up with nice
  • 00:22:49
    insults no what then constructive advice
  • 00:22:52
    constructive advice for example in
  • 00:22:55
    dealing with a aging population what
  • 00:22:57
    should be the government do what should
  • 00:22:59
    this governor should do but you can't
  • 00:23:00
    say the president's lied he's a liar
  • 00:23:03
    nothing you will be DeWalt with very
  • 00:23:05
    swiftly in China you cannot say that
  • 00:23:07
    that is the most honest thing you've
  • 00:23:08
    said tonight uh Victor gal we're going
  • 00:23:10
    to take a break that's part one of
  • 00:23:13
    head-to-head with our guest vict to gal
  • 00:23:15
    in part two we'll be talking about
  • 00:23:16
    President Xi Jinping we'll be talking
  • 00:23:18
    about the issue of dictatorship and
  • 00:23:20
    we'll hear from our very patient
  • 00:23:21
    audience here in London's Conway Hall
  • 00:23:24
    [Music]
  • 00:23:25
    [Applause]
  • 00:23:33
    welcome back to head-to-head on Al jazer
  • 00:23:35
    English my guest this week is Victor gal
  • 00:23:37
    former interpreter to the late Chinese
  • 00:23:39
    leader Den Shao ping vice president of
  • 00:23:40
    the center for China and globalization
  • 00:23:42
    in Beijing and an Ardent promoter of the
  • 00:23:45
    People's Republic we're also joined by
  • 00:23:47
    an expert panel here in London's Conway
  • 00:23:49
    Hall and a live audience who we're going
  • 00:23:51
    to hear from shortly Victor before we
  • 00:23:53
    get to the audience in 2019 on this very
  • 00:23:55
    show I asked the question is she being
  • 00:23:58
    gearing up to be president for Life
  • 00:24:01
    dictator in Chief I mean he's the most
  • 00:24:03
    powerful leader of China since Ma he's
  • 00:24:06
    abolished presidential term limits he's
  • 00:24:08
    now in his third five-year term as
  • 00:24:10
    president so I'll ask again tonight is
  • 00:24:12
    he now president for Life a true
  • 00:24:15
    dictator for the record first of all
  • 00:24:18
    Chinese president XI jining will never
  • 00:24:20
    be president for Life there will be a
  • 00:24:23
    time limit when it will be will be
  • 00:24:26
    handled according to the Chinese legal
  • 00:24:28
    system and Constitution secondly there
  • 00:24:30
    is no dictator in China why because
  • 00:24:34
    dictatorship simply doesn't work
  • 00:24:36
    democracy means modernization and how
  • 00:24:39
    can you explain profound transformation
  • 00:24:42
    of China over the past 45 years in China
  • 00:24:45
    if you have dictatorship or
  • 00:24:47
    authoritarian rule no every leader in
  • 00:24:50
    China will be put into a team and
  • 00:24:53
    teamwork will be much more important
  • 00:24:56
    than individualism Victor maybe previous
  • 00:24:58
    president did maybe Jang zamin or huin
  • 00:25:01
    everyone knows xiin ping has centralized
  • 00:25:03
    power Consolidated power got rid of term
  • 00:25:05
    limits you say there's a way to get rid
  • 00:25:07
    of him but there isn't actually a legal
  • 00:25:08
    way to get rid of him he's in power for
  • 00:25:10
    life and he likes being a dictator why
  • 00:25:12
    are we pretending Med allow me to remind
  • 00:25:15
    you the Communist Party of China which
  • 00:25:16
    is the ruling party of China has a
  • 00:25:18
    membership of up to 100 million people
  • 00:25:22
    it's well structured every Province
  • 00:25:24
    every state owned Enterprise Etc will
  • 00:25:27
    have a part cell
  • 00:25:29
    there's no division or debate within the
  • 00:25:30
    Chinese Communist Party listen to me no
  • 00:25:33
    single person in China can dictate to a
  • 00:25:37
    population of 1.4 billion people and 100
  • 00:25:40
    million membership of the Communist
  • 00:25:42
    Party of China okay let's test that
  • 00:25:44
    that's a mission impossible Let's test
  • 00:25:45
    that proposition the president won a
  • 00:25:47
    vote last year won a vote I'll put that
  • 00:25:49
    in air quotes do you know the tally of
  • 00:25:53
    last year's presidential vote in favor
  • 00:25:54
    of Xi Jinping by the national people's
  • 00:25:56
    Congress part of that structure you just
  • 00:25:59
    advertised to us what was the vote can
  • 00:26:01
    you tell our audience here I think it's
  • 00:26:03
    up to about 100% that doesn't
  • 00:26:08
    2,952 to zero yes that's exactly what I
  • 00:26:11
    said could you not find a few people
  • 00:26:14
    just to make it look a little even one
  • 00:26:16
    or two many it's not surprising it's not
  • 00:26:19
    surprising 2952 to
  • 00:26:21
    zero one R the Chinese system everyone
  • 00:26:25
    supports the Chinese president that's
  • 00:26:27
    you just told us 10 seconds ago there's
  • 00:26:29
    this huge system a big party one guy and
  • 00:26:31
    then you're like oh no but everyone
  • 00:26:32
    supports him zero votes against him one
  • 00:26:35
    person out of 3,000 couldn't say she
  • 00:26:38
    jining not my guy one what if he is the
  • 00:26:42
    guy for all the Communist Party of China
  • 00:26:45
    you never know know well if that's the
  • 00:26:48
    case then your entire first answer is
  • 00:26:49
    redundant because it doesn't matter if
  • 00:26:51
    there's 100 million people they all have
  • 00:26:52
    to follow the leader no he does command
  • 00:26:55
    huge respect among the Chinese people as
  • 00:26:57
    well as you say respect I say fear do
  • 00:27:00
    you know how many names were on the
  • 00:27:01
    ballot papers that were given in
  • 00:27:03
    2013 how many names were on the ballot
  • 00:27:05
    paper when they went to choose the
  • 00:27:06
    president can you tell our audience I
  • 00:27:08
    think there is only one candidate yeah
  • 00:27:10
    there were no no no other
  • 00:27:12
    names that's a real that's a real secure
  • 00:27:15
    leader a guy who knows he has the
  • 00:27:17
    confidence of his people you get to vote
  • 00:27:19
    but only for me and none of you can
  • 00:27:20
    actually vote against me would you not
  • 00:27:22
    want to end up in a situation with six
  • 00:27:25
    prime ministers in 8 years yeah so you
  • 00:27:28
    prefer a dictatorship no we prefer a
  • 00:27:31
    system that works for the benefit of the
  • 00:27:33
    Chinese people I I have not said a word
  • 00:27:35
    about what works or not you got great
  • 00:27:37
    economic growth look at the
  • 00:27:39
    dictatorship there is no dictatorship M
  • 00:27:42
    you just admitted that there's no name
  • 00:27:44
    on the ballot paper no votes against him
  • 00:27:46
    and they all just follow him that's the
  • 00:27:48
    dictatorship Med when you have a say by
  • 00:27:51
    name multiple times after but it's a
  • 00:27:53
    dictator how many candidates are there
  • 00:27:55
    on the ballot paper how many what king
  • 00:27:58
    Queen when the king succeeds the queen
  • 00:28:00
    how many candidates are there on the
  • 00:28:02
    ballet paper how many how many does that
  • 00:28:04
    make Britain not a democracy well you're
  • 00:28:06
    asking the wrong guy I'm a republican so
  • 00:28:08
    I think we should be a full democracy
  • 00:28:09
    and get rid of the monarchy and I can
  • 00:28:11
    say that here you can't say that in
  • 00:28:13
    China you cannot take any action against
  • 00:28:15
    that yes I can actually I can go out on
  • 00:28:16
    the street I can hold up a placard and
  • 00:28:17
    say let's get rid of King Charles I can
  • 00:28:19
    create a whole protest outside
  • 00:28:20
    Buckingham Palace you can't do that in
  • 00:28:22
    China you can't even put one other
  • 00:28:24
    person's name on a ballot paper that's
  • 00:28:25
    how insecure Your Leader is I'm I'm a
  • 00:28:28
    lawyer in my capacity as a lawyer I can
  • 00:28:31
    give you a long list of things that you
  • 00:28:33
    cannot do regarding the monarchy here in
  • 00:28:35
    I'm not debating that I'm saying that we
  • 00:28:37
    have an elected government we get to
  • 00:28:38
    choose we get to swap six Prime
  • 00:28:40
    Ministers God help us but we get to pick
  • 00:28:44
    everyone in this room who's a citizen
  • 00:28:46
    gets to pick listen you end up with your
  • 00:28:49
    mini budget which bankrupt the whole
  • 00:28:51
    country that's an honest answer Victor
  • 00:28:52
    but Victor I admire that because that's
  • 00:28:54
    an honest answer your answer is it's a
  • 00:28:57
    dictatorship that works at least say
  • 00:28:59
    that no no no you can't you keep dodging
  • 00:29:01
    one minute you say it's not a doip then
  • 00:29:03
    I show you it is you say but it's
  • 00:29:04
    working we've got growth my pick one myy
  • 00:29:07
    if that is your point I will seriously
  • 00:29:10
    urge you to do more homework about how
  • 00:29:12
    the Chinese system works okay let's talk
  • 00:29:14
    about the Chinese system because I did a
  • 00:29:15
    little bit of homework a little bit of
  • 00:29:16
    homework it's it's it's did you know
  • 00:29:18
    that Xi Jinping put his name in the
  • 00:29:21
    Constitution that's weird well the
  • 00:29:24
    leader of the country put his own name
  • 00:29:26
    in the Constitution while he's president
  • 00:29:27
    no has done that since Ma none of the
  • 00:29:29
    other Chinese presidents not huin taau
  • 00:29:31
    not your old boss Deng Xiao ping none of
  • 00:29:33
    them did it did they or am I wrong it's
  • 00:29:35
    wrong uh did the Chinese Constitution
  • 00:29:38
    has been most frequently amended
  • 00:29:41
    compared with any other country am I
  • 00:29:43
    wrong about what I just said with my
  • 00:29:45
    name was put into the Constitution I D's
  • 00:29:47
    name was put into the while he was
  • 00:29:49
    president and J's name was put into the
  • 00:29:52
    not while they were sitting presidents
  • 00:29:53
    and you know that tell our crowd here
  • 00:29:55
    not while they were president they
  • 00:29:56
    didn't do it themselves according to
  • 00:29:58
    recollection each of were put into the
  • 00:30:00
    cons while they were while the leaders
  • 00:30:03
    were still alive okay so I'm right not
  • 00:30:05
    while they were president I love the
  • 00:30:07
    little slip even Donald Trump one of the
  • 00:30:09
    great narcissists of our time has not
  • 00:30:11
    proposed yet putting his name into the
  • 00:30:13
    US Constitution if you are the president
  • 00:30:15
    of China you're elected without any
  • 00:30:17
    opponents no names on the ballot paper
  • 00:30:20
    zero votes against you you put your name
  • 00:30:22
    in the Constitution six-year-olds are
  • 00:30:24
    taught about Xi Jinping thought in
  • 00:30:26
    primary school that is not just the
  • 00:30:28
    dictatorship that is a cult of
  • 00:30:29
    personality I don't think China believes
  • 00:30:31
    in personal uh so why are six-year-olds
  • 00:30:34
    learning about Xi Jinping thought I'm
  • 00:30:35
    pretty sure no six-year-olds learned
  • 00:30:37
    about Liz truss's mini
  • 00:30:40
    budget Victor the Chinese system is such
  • 00:30:43
    that once you Orient the country in One
  • 00:30:46
    Direction everyone follows the suit do
  • 00:30:48
    they follow or they ordered to follow
  • 00:30:50
    they don't follow out a choice no it's
  • 00:30:52
    like a vehicle with four wheels here you
  • 00:30:54
    have four wheels aligned in different
  • 00:30:57
    directions in directions in China the
  • 00:31:00
    four wheels of a car all lined up in One
  • 00:31:03
    Direction They Don't going forward they
  • 00:31:05
    don't Victor let me give you an example
  • 00:31:07
    former for the Chinese way former
  • 00:31:09
    foreign minister chin gang was removed
  • 00:31:10
    from his post and has not been seen in
  • 00:31:13
    public since June 2023 a few months
  • 00:31:15
    later China's defense minister General
  • 00:31:16
    Lee Shang Fu disappeared from public
  • 00:31:18
    view for months has now been expelled
  • 00:31:20
    from the party accused of corruption
  • 00:31:21
    that's at least two ministers that
  • 00:31:23
    disappeared just in the last year with
  • 00:31:25
    apologies to Oscar wild to lose one
  • 00:31:27
    Minister might be unfortunate to lose
  • 00:31:29
    two is careless is it not do you know
  • 00:31:31
    the point I want to make this means
  • 00:31:34
    China is really merciless in dealing
  • 00:31:36
    with Corruption of all kinds even among
  • 00:31:38
    the foreign minister and defense Min
  • 00:31:40
    imagine Anthony blinkin and Lloyd Austin
  • 00:31:42
    just disappeared tomorrow we don't know
  • 00:31:44
    where they are we've never seen them
  • 00:31:45
    again that's not normal Victor listen
  • 00:31:48
    corruption is rampant how do we know
  • 00:31:50
    they're corrupt they just disappeared
  • 00:31:51
    where's the
  • 00:31:52
    trial the tri finish my point Corruption
  • 00:31:56
    of all kinds in China need to be dwelt
  • 00:31:58
    with so where's the trial mercilessness
  • 00:32:00
    so where's the trial where's the trial
  • 00:32:01
    of the former for is we don't even know
  • 00:32:03
    where he is many those things you don't
  • 00:32:06
    know doesn't mean doesn't happen where
  • 00:32:08
    is the trial for this man you're just
  • 00:32:09
    accusing of corruption Chang was my good
  • 00:32:12
    friend for more than 20 years where is
  • 00:32:14
    he then he is involved in corruption
  • 00:32:16
    where is he and he is dwelt with very
  • 00:32:18
    swiftly where is he Victor regardless of
  • 00:32:21
    your good friend you don't know where he
  • 00:32:22
    is regardless of where is the for
  • 00:32:25
    foreign minister of China this is not a
  • 00:32:26
    hard question we're not asking where
  • 00:32:27
    Ran's brother in the middle of shin Jang
  • 00:32:29
    is that you can dodge where is the
  • 00:32:31
    former foreign minister of China who
  • 00:32:33
    disappeared and by the way he wasn't
  • 00:32:34
    accused of corruption the spokesman came
  • 00:32:36
    out and said he has health reasons then
  • 00:32:37
    corruption came later by the way where
  • 00:32:39
    did he go your friend that means there
  • 00:32:41
    is a process and the process the process
  • 00:32:43
    starts with one lie that he's ill and
  • 00:32:44
    then the next lie is he's corrupt he may
  • 00:32:47
    be ill you never know I mean he's
  • 00:32:49
    probably ill after he's been in a
  • 00:32:50
    Chinese prison may be ill now you never
  • 00:32:52
    know but at least gong lost his job
  • 00:32:55
    because of his corruption last question
  • 00:32:57
    that's the point where is he he's
  • 00:32:59
    somewhere in China you will never see
  • 00:33:01
    him he is among the 1.4 billion people
  • 00:33:05
    no it's not just him there's many other
  • 00:33:06
    people who have disappeared the previous
  • 00:33:08
    defense minister disappeared the
  • 00:33:09
    ministry of industry and Technology
  • 00:33:11
    disappeared the former Interpol
  • 00:33:12
    president disappeared in China you just
  • 00:33:14
    disappear if they don't like you that's
  • 00:33:15
    the rule of law in China I'm so happy
  • 00:33:17
    they disappear because if they keep
  • 00:33:19
    doing their job they will bring greater
  • 00:33:21
    dis be careful what you wish for cuz
  • 00:33:23
    everyone's watching this show and if you
  • 00:33:24
    get something wrong tonight maybe you
  • 00:33:26
    disappear if I is a beer I hope you will
  • 00:33:28
    bail me
  • 00:33:30
    out I'd have to find you first and China
  • 00:33:32
    is apparently a big country um I want to
  • 00:33:34
    bring in uh Steven Chan professor at the
  • 00:33:36
    University of London's School of
  • 00:33:37
    Oriental African studies um Stephen XI
  • 00:33:39
    jinping's policies his Crackdown on
  • 00:33:42
    dissident I mean China was never a
  • 00:33:43
    democracy other presidents were also
  • 00:33:45
    dictatorial but can we agree that
  • 00:33:47
    xinping is on a different level when it
  • 00:33:49
    comes to repression at home the
  • 00:33:50
    consolidation of power I assume you
  • 00:33:52
    disagree with Victor's description of
  • 00:33:53
    him as part of a I don't know four-wheel
  • 00:33:55
    car all driving in the same Direction
  • 00:33:57
    Happily he certainly Consolidated his
  • 00:33:59
    power he is a very very strong president
  • 00:34:02
    and I think that the real test of all of
  • 00:34:04
    this is how China has treated Hong Kong
  • 00:34:07
    with the increasing clampdown on dissent
  • 00:34:09
    and free expression of opinion when they
  • 00:34:12
    were meant to have a degree of freedom
  • 00:34:14
    in a one country two system way of
  • 00:34:16
    approaching life we can't see any
  • 00:34:19
    evidence of vibrant debate in China and
  • 00:34:22
    I note that one of the great
  • 00:34:25
    disappointments of my life is when I
  • 00:34:26
    read Chinese acad mic works everyone TOS
  • 00:34:29
    a party line no one does independent
  • 00:34:32
    research to publish as it were anything
  • 00:34:34
    critical of for instance not just Gan
  • 00:34:37
    ping anything critical about Chinese
  • 00:34:39
    foreign policy or they might disappear
  • 00:34:41
    they might not get promoted in any case
  • 00:34:44
    rahan assat is a senior fellow at the
  • 00:34:45
    Atlantic Council international human
  • 00:34:47
    rights law rahan in part one we' talked
  • 00:34:48
    in depth about uh the repression against
  • 00:34:50
    the weers and your own personal
  • 00:34:52
    situation in 2014 Xi Jinping privately
  • 00:34:55
    called for an allout struggle quote
  • 00:34:57
    against terrorism and to show absolutely
  • 00:34:59
    no mercy after a visit to shinjang how
  • 00:35:02
    much do you believe Xi Jinping is
  • 00:35:03
    driving what's happening in Shin Jang
  • 00:35:05
    how much do you think he's responsible
  • 00:35:07
    for the repression in China well the
  • 00:35:09
    matter of the fact is that all of it
  • 00:35:11
    happened under current Administration
  • 00:35:13
    right so many scholars are attributing
  • 00:35:15
    to him it happened under his Reign he's
  • 00:35:17
    the one who said absolutely no mercy um
  • 00:35:21
    stamping out roots and branches of the
  • 00:35:23
    ERS breaking out their connection and
  • 00:35:25
    these are the policies implemented under
  • 00:35:27
    his leadership so it's very hard to
  • 00:35:31
    separate XI Jin ping from the current
  • 00:35:33
    policy shinan Martin Jake's author of
  • 00:35:35
    the best selling book when China rules
  • 00:35:36
    the world you you heard Victor talk
  • 00:35:39
    about well we can't be a dictatorship
  • 00:35:41
    because we're doing so well the economy
  • 00:35:42
    is doing amazing we don't have Liz trust
  • 00:35:44
    mini budgets Etc but then you get into
  • 00:35:46
    the debate about can dictatorship and
  • 00:35:49
    growth coexist do you need to have
  • 00:35:51
    democracy to go alongside that and I
  • 00:35:53
    think about the pandemic Martin and I
  • 00:35:55
    think about China's reaction to the
  • 00:35:57
    pandemic is that where the dictatorship
  • 00:35:59
    the lack of transparency the
  • 00:36:00
    disappearances caught up with China
  • 00:36:02
    because of course there was a black hole
  • 00:36:04
    in China in terms of China's censorship
  • 00:36:06
    methods its Draconian policies the zero
  • 00:36:08
    Co policy the Crackdown which led some
  • 00:36:11
    people say to over a million two million
  • 00:36:12
    deaths we saw protests in buildings
  • 00:36:14
    people screaming was that a moment where
  • 00:36:16
    China actually collided with reality and
  • 00:36:18
    said this system it it can't survive
  • 00:36:20
    longterm well I beg to differ okay on
  • 00:36:23
    the question of the pandemic because
  • 00:36:25
    actually for two years uh uh uh 2020 and
  • 00:36:30
    2021 actually China did under the
  • 00:36:33
    circumstances extremely well and Well
  • 00:36:37
    outperformed the West and the reasons
  • 00:36:39
    for it are quite complicated uh you've
  • 00:36:42
    got to take into a very different kind
  • 00:36:43
    of system now one of the problems with
  • 00:36:45
    the discussion I think uh uh so far on
  • 00:36:49
    this question is that uh the country it
  • 00:36:53
    sounds as if the country doesn't work if
  • 00:36:55
    you say dictator despot all these
  • 00:36:58
    I but if and and you say not you
  • 00:37:01
    personally but and one says there's no
  • 00:37:04
    discussion this is I think this is
  • 00:37:07
    absolutely untrue so what we're
  • 00:37:09
    presenting here is not an accurate
  • 00:37:11
    picture we've got it's not about
  • 00:37:12
    accurate picture it's about balance
  • 00:37:14
    right so I I don't deny what you're
  • 00:37:15
    saying but you're British you would
  • 00:37:18
    think it was a political earthquake if
  • 00:37:19
    the foreign secretary and the defense
  • 00:37:21
    secretary disappeared in the space of
  • 00:37:22
    six months not arrested disappeared
  • 00:37:24
    surely yeah yeah and and there is
  • 00:37:25
    something on look Ching gong was was a
  • 00:37:27
    friend of mine as well and I don't know
  • 00:37:30
    what's happened to him and I think it is
  • 00:37:31
    odd certainly to our eyes it's we weird
  • 00:37:35
    that this can happen but uh but I think
  • 00:37:38
    that the thing is that we've got to try
  • 00:37:40
    and get Beyond cardboard cutouts when
  • 00:37:43
    we're talking about China and understand
  • 00:37:45
    how it really works okay um let's bring
  • 00:37:49
    in our audience who've been waiting here
  • 00:37:51
    in London's Conway Hall I'm going to go
  • 00:37:52
    to the yes the lady there on the fourth
  • 00:37:55
    row yes you
  • 00:37:57
    my question is as a disident from Hong
  • 00:38:00
    Kong knowing that I cannot express
  • 00:38:02
    freely in Hong Kong or in the UK without
  • 00:38:05
    risking other people in trouble I also
  • 00:38:08
    know that you just now made claims about
  • 00:38:10
    there's free speech in China and it's
  • 00:38:12
    possible to criticize the Chinese
  • 00:38:13
    government just now again can you please
  • 00:38:16
    demonstrate that free speech and tell us
  • 00:38:18
    what are siin Ping's two worst mistakes
  • 00:38:20
    in the past five years great question if
  • 00:38:22
    you can demonstrate to us that it's okay
  • 00:38:23
    to criticize shping the Chinese
  • 00:38:25
    government and China or even just say
  • 00:38:27
    she kind of resembles winning the Poo
  • 00:38:29
    will be good enough for me thank you
  • 00:38:31
    Victor do you want to take that question
  • 00:38:33
    well thank you I would say uh China need
  • 00:38:36
    to make more prompt uh take more prompt
  • 00:38:40
    actions in dealing with the dramatic uh
  • 00:38:43
    aging population in China and the
  • 00:38:45
    dramatic uh demographic decline do you
  • 00:38:47
    think XI Jin Ping's to blame for not
  • 00:38:49
    being fast enough on Aging no I think uh
  • 00:38:51
    the whole Chinese government including
  • 00:38:53
    the Central Committee State council
  • 00:38:56
    local government need to take actions
  • 00:38:58
    quickly to reverse that dramatic uh
  • 00:39:02
    aging population problem and demographic
  • 00:39:05
    we're not going to get a criticism out
  • 00:39:06
    of VI let's go back to the audience uh
  • 00:39:08
    let's go to the gentleman here in the
  • 00:39:09
    tie yes you yeah Alex sorry Alex Vin
  • 00:39:13
    some chatam house my my question is uh
  • 00:39:16
    debt so there's been very bad riots for
  • 00:39:19
    example it's been in the news in Kenya
  • 00:39:22
    some of that debt that's causing the
  • 00:39:24
    problem is owed to China so the question
  • 00:39:27
    is is how is China uh going to handle
  • 00:39:31
    the increasing uh pressures for debt
  • 00:39:35
    cancellation uh at least 17 African
  • 00:39:38
    countries are in particular distress
  • 00:39:41
    this year thank
  • 00:39:43
    you I understand the Chinese debt in
  • 00:39:47
    these large scale uh connectivity
  • 00:39:49
    projects is only a small portion of the
  • 00:39:52
    overall national debt because they own
  • 00:39:54
    debt to the United States to Britain to
  • 00:39:57
    the international uh financing uh
  • 00:39:59
    institutions Etc they not just own debt
  • 00:40:03
    to China but to many other countries
  • 00:40:05
    that's the reality secondly there is
  • 00:40:08
    accusation about the death trap which is
  • 00:40:10
    completely wrong and false because if
  • 00:40:13
    you want to do connectivity project
  • 00:40:15
    major project finance things you need to
  • 00:40:18
    have Equity as well as debt debt is an
  • 00:40:21
    indispensable part of the packaging okay
  • 00:40:25
    let's go back to the audience um I Sate
  • 00:40:26
    this gentlemen the time then go to the
  • 00:40:28
    back then we go to that gentleman there
  • 00:40:29
    you next after this
  • 00:40:32
    one my name is Sonam frazzi I would like
  • 00:40:35
    to ask you a question on
  • 00:40:37
    Tibet I was born in Tibet before the
  • 00:40:40
    Chinese invasion of Tibet unfortunately
  • 00:40:43
    1.2 million Tibetans have died since and
  • 00:40:48
    we have been made
  • 00:40:49
    refugees my question is Tibet after 74
  • 00:40:54
    years of Chinese rule is still under
  • 00:40:57
    lockdown no journalists no individual
  • 00:41:01
    tourists no even Tibetans are not
  • 00:41:05
    allowed to see their families what is
  • 00:41:07
    China afraid of to keep keep Tibet in
  • 00:41:11
    such a tight control and Tibetans is
  • 00:41:14
    such a inhuman existence in our own
  • 00:41:17
    country sir ever since the UN Dynasty if
  • 00:41:20
    not even earlier Tibet has been part of
  • 00:41:23
    China through different dynasties
  • 00:41:25
    different historical period
  • 00:41:27
    I can assure you during your lifetime
  • 00:41:30
    and mine Tibet will always be part of
  • 00:41:34
    China why are you so insistent on ruling
  • 00:41:36
    places that don't want to be ruled by
  • 00:41:38
    China no Tibet we've been through Tibet
  • 00:41:40
    Taiwan they're not happy in
  • 00:41:43
    shinjang Tibet being part of China
  • 00:41:45
    doesn't depend on whether you like it or
  • 00:41:47
    not it's a mega trend of our time a mega
  • 00:41:49
    Trend and you need to accept that before
  • 00:41:52
    you will feel free to go back to
  • 00:41:54
    China visit Tibet
  • 00:41:57
    you sound like you're threatening the
  • 00:41:58
    man no I'm not he said you have to
  • 00:42:01
    accept that before you can go back he's
  • 00:42:03
    from that place you live in peace in
  • 00:42:06
    Britain that's good but he's a refugee
  • 00:42:07
    but if you want to go back to Tibet
  • 00:42:09
    acknowledge Tibet is part of China
  • 00:42:11
    period And what if he doesn't he can't
  • 00:42:13
    go back to his home you cannot go
  • 00:42:16
    back because China doesn't want to see
  • 00:42:19
    anyone advocating for the independence
  • 00:42:22
    of Tibet why can't no way there will
  • 00:42:25
    that will never happen Victor why can't
  • 00:42:29
    China rest on its own merits why the
  • 00:42:32
    bullying and the threats we're going to
  • 00:42:34
    break you to pieces Taiwan you can't go
  • 00:42:36
    back until you sign this document or
  • 00:42:39
    that declar why the insecurity second
  • 00:42:41
    biggest economy in the world major power
  • 00:42:43
    you sound so insecure China security
  • 00:42:46
    rests on the principle that there is
  • 00:42:48
    only one China and Taiwan is part of
  • 00:42:51
    China Tibet is part of China and Shing
  • 00:42:53
    Jang is part of China period And even if
  • 00:42:56
    the people there don't want to be part
  • 00:42:57
    of it you don't give a damn the majority
  • 00:42:58
    of the people live happily as Chinese
  • 00:43:00
    ciens did you do a vote I will go with
  • 00:43:03
    you to we're going to go to Tibet and
  • 00:43:05
    we're going to talk to all the Tibetan I
  • 00:43:07
    can go to Tibet but the guy who's from
  • 00:43:08
    there can't go there you sound ludicrous
  • 00:43:10
    when you say this stuff I'm sorry to say
  • 00:43:12
    let us go back to audience gentle at the
  • 00:43:13
    back and then this gentleman here my
  • 00:43:15
    name is a Isa alun I am a British Ur
  • 00:43:19
    except
  • 00:43:21
    ran and my question for many in the U
  • 00:43:25
    diaspora
  • 00:43:27
    we have not been allowed
  • 00:43:30
    contact with our families at home visin
  • 00:43:33
    the UR autonomous region since
  • 00:43:36
    2017 when Chinese government started
  • 00:43:40
    detaining more than 3 million plus ERS
  • 00:43:45
    into their Hightech surveillance
  • 00:43:47
    concentration camps my question to you
  • 00:43:50
    sir what's the Chinese government trying
  • 00:43:54
    to hide from us
  • 00:43:57
    second okay why can't we why can't we
  • 00:44:01
    not talk freely with our families
  • 00:44:04
    okay another yet another weager so many
  • 00:44:06
    Wagers the same story the same questions
  • 00:44:08
    I'm always very happy to see Wherever I
  • 00:44:11
    Go a wegle person because I do consider
  • 00:44:14
    The Wiggles as my brothers and sisters
  • 00:44:16
    on one condition part of me starting to
  • 00:44:18
    feel sorry for your actual brothers and
  • 00:44:19
    sisters I'll be honest on one on one on
  • 00:44:21
    one condition though Wiggles need to
  • 00:44:24
    acknowledge that Shin Jang is part of
  • 00:44:26
    China that's a big precondition if you
  • 00:44:28
    do not accept that precondition you are
  • 00:44:31
    not my brother or sister hold on so he
  • 00:44:33
    that's fine you don't have to be
  • 00:44:35
    brothers and sisters but can he not talk
  • 00:44:37
    to his family it depends on where your
  • 00:44:39
    family is there are indeed a wo
  • 00:44:42
    separatists who want to promote
  • 00:44:45
    separatism of Wiggle turn what about the
  • 00:44:48
    people who are not separ just disappear
  • 00:44:50
    turn Shin Jang into East turkistan this
  • 00:44:53
    will never happen listen to this call
  • 00:44:56
    your friends
  • 00:44:57
    to stick to the one CH policy he just
  • 00:44:59
    wants to talk on the phone to a family
  • 00:45:02
    member years I didn't speak to my mother
  • 00:45:05
    I want to speak to my mother I am
  • 00:45:07
    British I want to speak to my mother do
  • 00:45:09
    you understand literally support One
  • 00:45:13
    China policy support being part of China
  • 00:45:16
    Victor period do you have no heart to
  • 00:45:19
    see this man who can't speak to his 82y
  • 00:45:20
    old mother separ I wish your mother is
  • 00:45:23
    here in this Hall talking to you and why
  • 00:45:26
    you let her go maybe she could but then
  • 00:45:28
    on one condition in China Zero Tolerance
  • 00:45:32
    of any separatist movement 82 year- old
  • 00:45:35
    woman is a threat to China what does
  • 00:45:37
    that say about China I hope she's not a
  • 00:45:39
    separatist but if she's a separatist she
  • 00:45:41
    will be dwelt with by law period Victor
  • 00:45:45
    before we finish I have one question for
  • 00:45:47
    you we're in the UK we're in Conway Hall
  • 00:45:49
    historic Free Speech Society could we do
  • 00:45:52
    a show like this could I interview you
  • 00:45:55
    like this could rahan come be on a panel
  • 00:45:56
    like this in Beijing in say the Beijing
  • 00:45:59
    International Convention Center can we
  • 00:46:00
    do a show like this audience members
  • 00:46:02
    freely ask questions you take questions
  • 00:46:04
    from everyone no one's vetted no one's
  • 00:46:07
    threatened could we do this in Beijing
  • 00:46:09
    medy if you ask me to line up all the
  • 00:46:11
    support you will do that really I can
  • 00:46:14
    assure you that a show where every
  • 00:46:16
    audience member gets to speak freely No
  • 00:46:17
    One turns up at their house afterwards
  • 00:46:19
    for many European countries you do not
  • 00:46:20
    need a visa to go to China pick up your
  • 00:46:23
    luggage buy a ticket ask I'm not asking
  • 00:46:25
    foreigners Victor asking foreigners to
  • 00:46:27
    come I'm saying could a Chinese audience
  • 00:46:29
    turn up and ask whatever they want
  • 00:46:31
    criticize Xi Jinping criticize the
  • 00:46:32
    government ask you questions talk about
  • 00:46:35
    weers could you do it in Beijing m in
  • 00:46:37
    China don't criticize our president so
  • 00:46:39
    we couldn't do this unless you have glad
  • 00:46:41
    you positive constructive proposal to
  • 00:46:45
    make from criticism from the horse's
  • 00:46:48
    mouth don't criticize unless it's posi
  • 00:46:50
    is not the only goal criticism with
  • 00:46:52
    constructive purposes will be a better
  • 00:46:55
    free speech free speech is goal we
  • 00:46:57
    cherish on this show I'm glad to have
  • 00:46:59
    offered you a platform for free speech I
  • 00:47:00
    wish you could offer me one back Victor
  • 00:47:02
    gal thank you for your time thank you to
  • 00:47:05
    the audience in Conway Hall and thank
  • 00:47:07
    you to everyone at home for watching
  • 00:47:08
    this episode of head 10
  • 00:47:12
    [Music]
  • 00:47:14
    [Applause]
Tag
  • China
  • Xi Jinping
  • militarization
  • Taiwan
  • human rights
  • Xinjiang
  • geopolitics
  • territorial disputes
  • international relations
  • debate