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[Music]
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hi everybody I'm Nicola tangan the CEO
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of the Norwegian Sovereign wealth fund
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and today I'm here with Stan Ren Miller
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at proper legend in the investment World
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San what a pleasure to be here happy to
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see you niai now what are the most
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important data you're looking at these
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days currently yeah interestingly enough
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I'm known as a macro investor but I do a
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macro from the bottom up so we're
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listening primarily to companies and
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we're not seeing
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any material signs of weakness other
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than maybe in the housing market but
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that's from a very elevated price level
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so we're not seeing bottom up in
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information indicating to us that
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there's an economic problem anytime in
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the next 3 to six months I would also
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say I'm revealing now that I'm more of a
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market animal than an economist that we
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look at Financial
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conditions they've been very very loose
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I mean they're is looser looser than
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they were when the FED actually started
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tightening they've tightened
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considerably in the
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last four or five weeks ever since the
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ironically ever since the FED cut
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because the dollar has ried and
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obviously interest rates have gone up
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but they're still they're still quite
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above normal so that's pretty much the
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data we're looking at I'd say the other
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thing I'm focused on I've been obsessed
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with whether we were in the 70s um
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really since 2021 when this whole
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inflationary episode started and I'd say
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two years ago or a year and a half ago I
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was very confident that inflation was
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going to come down which I was right on
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but I was worried about the economy
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which I was completely wrong on um more
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recently and you can take this with a
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grain of salt since I had one right and
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one wrong there um I've switched to
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being more worried about inflation going
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forward uh than the economy itself why
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do I say that if we go back to the 70s
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there was an episode with OPEC that set
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off an inflation you had a
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recession
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and inflation came down I think from
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about 8 to 3 and then went back up again
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yes and what Bo what's bothered me and
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what I have wanted to say
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you're exactly right it went back up
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again it went back up again and the
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number of
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months um would correlate to the bottom
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being right about now yeah so my
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confidence a year a year and a half ago
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was we're going to have that period
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where we came down again and then we'd
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see and I'm a little worried that the
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FED has declared Victory too early I
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don't have conviction like I had in 21
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that inflation was going going to go up
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that's when the money supply was growing
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40% and all sorts of things were
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happening but I also don't have
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conviction that they've snuffed this
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thing out and won the battle and to cut
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50 basis
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points with credit spreads tight gold at
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new highs equity's roaring no sign of
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weakness um material weakness in the
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economy of course there are some spots
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um that just makes me nervous that this
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thing could turn up again what would
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make you turn up again what would be the
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factors I think what I just said uh
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easing into Financial conditions let's
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say um Trump wins if Trump wins you
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could have animal spirits from the
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business Community who are dying for
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deregulation you could have tariffs
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which are on the margin
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inflationary uh immigration has been a
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great Boon to this country maybe not the
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way it was done but it certainly enabled
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us to have growth without inflation and
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labor materially the last two or three
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years so the combination of animal
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spirits recovery doing better than it is
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I'm just open-minded to it again why is
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it so urgent for the central bank to cut
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given this honestly um I don't take the
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nefarious view that pal is doing it for
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quote unquote political reasons I do
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think he's obsessed with the soft
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landing and I think he's obsessed with
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his legacy and having made the mistake
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he made in 21 and he's being egged on by
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other economists in the press to me the
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fed's job is to avoid the big big
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mistakes yeah like the 70s like the
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great financial crisis like the big
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inflation we just had but all this fine
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tuning and woring about a soft Landing
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that that is not the job of the FED in
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my opinion is to maximize employment for
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the long term not for the next three
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months or the next four months but I
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think the fed's obsession with nailing
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this so-called soft Landing I would
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remind everybody that the reason we're
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having a landing is because they took
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they let inflation go from 2 to %. yeah
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so there was no need for a landing for
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20 years but um I think that's what
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they're obsessed with I don't really I
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don't know how much of a problem is the
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forward guidance it's a huge problem um
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my friend dream grants says they're
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forward guidance dependent not data
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dependent um it's a problem because once
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you do forward guidance you eliminate
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your optionality yeah and I think
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Nikolai you and I being in this business
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we know we have to change our mind when
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we're wrong yeah this fed has
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shown over and over again that they
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think if they change their mind they're
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losing credibility so it makes them have
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their hands tied behind their back I'm
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wrong all the time I think my record is
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mainly because when I'm wrong I changed
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my mind not that I'm always right I'm
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certainly not forward guidance seems to
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tie them into positions where and
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eliminate flexibility they need how big
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a problem is the budget deficit as a
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practitioner it's something I can't be
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obsessed with on a 3 to six Monon basis
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as an American it's something I'm really
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obsessed with because debt to GDP can't
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go up forever and to me we have a
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reckoning but I don't know how the time
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when that's going to take place I will
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say that because the reserve
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currency we've been permitted to engage
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in behavior that say the Brits couldn't
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have behaved in there's a new term I
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have getting LZ trust we haven't been LZ
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trust because we are the reserve
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currency even though if you look at
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everything we're doing it's much more
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radical than the Brits were doing yeah
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um what's that old saying how do you go
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bankrupt slowly and then suddenly
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running deficits with full employment at
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basically at 7% of
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GDP is a recipe that can't last forever
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one of the reasons we haven't paid for
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it is in Co the entire private sector
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80% of individuals refinance their
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mortgages so the average mortgage rate
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is still under 4% even though at the
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margin it got to 8% corporations termed
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out their debt that stuff rolls over in
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25 and 26 if we're going to have a
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problem it's probably more like late 25
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early 26 but you just don't know so and
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what is it that can create this kind of
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trust moment where people suddenly
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change their mind in terms of the price
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they want to have to lend money to it
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could it could be a failed auction it
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could be If the Fed is wrong about
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inflation and it turns back up again
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because they're easing Financial
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conditions into a melt up um if they
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were to have to start increasing
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interest rates again which is why I
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think they should be so cautious about
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their
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optionality um now that they've forward
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guided to a series of cuts that could
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cause it um my best guess would be a
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failed auction but honestly it could be
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6 months it could be six years I I just
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don't know so he rat start to go up how
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high can they go well that's a great
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question because right now the 10 year I
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guess it's around 4 and a half it can go
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to nominal GDP so let's say inflation
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went to four 4 and A2 and real growth
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was 2 and a half or three 10 years AG go
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to six or seven I'm not predicting that
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but that would be consistent if things
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if inflation did turn back up again and
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the economy wasn't weakening I think you
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could get there it's interesting that's
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what happened in the 70 the bond market
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didn't really respond until we went back
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up from like 3 to 12 and then it it
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responded in Spades again I'm not
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predicting this but I'm as a
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practitioner I'm very open-minded to it
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and I've got a it's like on my radar
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well you say you make the most money
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from uh from fed mistakes so is this the
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way you are positioned now I'm short
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ponds I'm not like mega short I I
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actually had good timing for once I
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shorted them literally the day the FED
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cut um it's been kind of an easy ride
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since then I should have been much
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bigger now that they move so much I'm a
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little worried about um if anything
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being too big but yeah no that's the way
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I'm positioned if I thought what we are
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talking about was happening and I don't
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see a sign of it yet I'm just
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open-minded to it I would be much bigger
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I'm like
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25% naav short uh 10e equivalent moving
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on to the stock market uh the leadership
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is very narrow it's led by not so many
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stocks just how do you read this narrow
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leadership um it's never been great but
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the leadership's not as narrow as it was
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last April so you're starting to get
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some broadening out the financials are
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doing better it's not great we've never
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had a bare Market start without the
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leadership narrowing and it's narrowing
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enough that you're starting to get
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toward a necessary condition being
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satisfied but it's early but it's it's a
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it's a yellow light it's not a red light
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that's how I read it so how do you think
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the tech sector will develop what kind
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of science are you seeing there the AI
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boom is going unabated Nikolai the I
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think the private sector just sees it as
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an existential threat to their business
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if they don't um spend money on it
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because if they don't spend money on it
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and their competitors do and their
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competitors are right they're going to
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have a big big competitive problem and
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of course the
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hyperscalers they're all in and their
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demand is just continuing so look you've
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got very rich prices in the tech sector
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stuff like apple selling I know 25 or 30
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times earnings it's certainly not
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growing at 25 or 30% but we don't have
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that much exposure to the tech sector
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and we're not short it so not really
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involved cuz but you were very early
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into it yeah what um how do you spot
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these early Trends what is said that you
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look at honestly uh I've got young
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really good analysts here yeah a lot of
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people have a lot of young analysts who
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are who are on top of things and they
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started um we noticed about three or
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four years ago that the kids that go to
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Stanford and MIT the engineers were
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shifting from crypto to AI
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that was the first signed then my my
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young Partners started talking more and
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more about AI uh I asked them how to
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play it they mentioned a company called
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Nvidia which I thought was a gaming
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company I hadn't done work on in a long
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time um I bought a pretty good chunk of
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it and then like a month later chaty PT
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happened it was just total luck I had no
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idea caty p but the AI drum around here
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was big enough and the stock was down I
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think from 400 to 150 or something so
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that's how I got started in it once we
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invest in something like that then we
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really start to dig deeper and then
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there was a whole chain of things we
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knew it would affect power we knew it
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would affect uranium we just went
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through the whole chain and it was a
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pretty easy Trend to spot not not unlike
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um the cloud was the you know these
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things come in waves M but AI the
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question with AI now that I'm wrestling
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with and the reason our exposure is
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really neither long nor short is how to
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play it because we started with pix and
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shovels which is Invidia and to some
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extent um Microsoft but now we're seeing
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just massive amounts of capital being
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spent by these
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modelers and if AI is for real and I
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think it is they're all going to give
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you the same answer so we're going to
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have four or five companies will spent
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masses amounts of capital but I don't
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see it as a win or take all model on the
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other hand I think there applications um
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that I haven't even thought of and
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nobody's thought of they're going to
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spring up I mean who would have thought
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of Uber or Facebook when the internet
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started so we're very bullish on AI
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but we're not bullish currently on
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exactly where we're supposed to be and
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how to play it aggressively not unlike
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the internet in 2201 you could have
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believed in the internet not been
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exposed and then got your exposure on a
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more timely basis or I could just be
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wrong which is wouldn't be that unusual
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but you were also early into the
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anti-obesity drug producers oh that was
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easy I mean I don't know what it's like
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in Norway but in America
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yeah if you go to Disney World
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everything and if you know the American
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psyche if you know an American they got
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a way to lose weight without doing any
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work and uh I I knew the drug worked
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early on just because we were exposed to
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it but I and then when I heard if you
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get off the drug you gain the weight
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back then I knew it was sort of a razor
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blade business cuz people would have to
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say on the drug yeah but you say it's C
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but I mean hey it's not like you're the
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only one who is walking around around in
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Disneyland and looking at these kind of
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things right so but you you actually you
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actually act on your Intuition or your
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all the data that's in front of you I do
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but it's it's you know it's not all
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Brilliance I I I bought Nvidia very well
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but I sold it eight or 900 right when
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the party was really getting going and I
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sold my Lily in the high 700s granted
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had a had a nice profit but yeah I look
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for for big trends I'm not about guy
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that holds for 20 years but I look for
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two to four years stuff and both fit
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into that category and frankly we're
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looking now for AI
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applications that might not have been
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recognized yet I think I'm on the board
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of memal slone ketering have been for
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almost 30 years and the applications in
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cancer are unreal and just FYI the
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memorial slone cing is the leading
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cancer hospital in the world yes and
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they have a lot of money in the
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endowment partly because you are on the
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board or the investment committee well
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they have a lot of money in their D and
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I wouldn't say partly because I'm on the
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board but thank you now um when we last
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met you mentioned the concept of buy
00:16:05
first analyze later tell me about that
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yeah Soros used to call it invest and
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invest and then investigate I think I
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just gave a classic example I didn't
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know that much about Nvidia I just knew
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that Ai and I had some people here tell
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me how to play it so we bought Invidia
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and then we we were in the process of
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doing a lot more work and then chat GPT
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tap and but I've always had the view
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that markets are smart they're fast and
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they're getting much more so with with
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all the communication and the technology
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we have
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today and that if I hear a concept and I
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like it uh if I wait and spend two or
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three months analyzing it I may miss big
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part of the move and then
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psychologically be paralyzed it's hard
00:16:52
to buy a stock you're looking at at 100
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it's 160 even if it's going to 400
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somehow your your head is screwed up and
00:16:59
you're waiting for the pullback so we
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will we will buy something a meaningful
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position but not Earth shaking and then
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really do the work and if I think we
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made a mistake I'll sell it and if I
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don't think we made a mistake We'll add
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to it if if we have to yeah no I I I
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happen to have worked exactly the same
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way uh in my life it it really focuses
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in your your work and your efforts your
00:17:29
thinking but have you always believed in
00:17:31
your own pattern recognition yes when I
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started in the business I got promoted
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too early so before I had really learned
00:17:40
the nuts and bolts of the analysis to
00:17:42
the extent that I should have I was
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promoted to to a to a leadership
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position and I had to rely a lot on
00:17:49
charts and I had to rely a lot on
00:17:52
intuition but I found it's not that hard
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if if you're dealing with a psychical
00:17:57
company and they're losing money or
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they're not profitable and everybody in
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their industry is shutting capacity down
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it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
00:18:06
try and envision 18 to 24 months out if
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nobody's add in capacity they may not be
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losing money anymore they might be
00:18:13
making a lot of money I have found it's
00:18:16
very important never to invest in the
00:18:19
present always try and envision the
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situation as you see it in 18 to 24
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months and then see if if you feel
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things would be differently than they
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are now would security prices reflect
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that I think that's probably the biggest
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mistake
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investors make is they invest in the
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present rather than forward looking and
00:18:43
looking where the Puck's going instead
00:18:44
of where the puck is yeah now um a few
00:18:47
people believe in other people's
00:18:49
gutfield did Soros believe in your
00:18:51
gutfield or did you have to show him
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analysis Soros and I had a rocky start I
00:18:57
I I went there I had had
00:19:01
some uh significant success running
00:19:04
public funds at
00:19:06
dfus and he told me I was his successor
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but I don't really think his mind was
00:19:12
completely made up when I got there and
00:19:14
and the first 6 months were quite Rocky
00:19:17
because it wasn't clear who was in
00:19:20
charge um frankly we're both trading
00:19:23
badly and I was flying to Pittsburgh cuz
00:19:26
I still had Duane I was running both and
00:19:29
um when I got off the airplane I think
00:19:32
we had payones back then we didn't have
00:19:35
cell phones and uh the head Trader there
00:19:38
told me he had told out sold out my bond
00:19:40
position so I probably had a higher
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opinion of myself at the time that I
00:19:44
should have I was young and I had always
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been in charge so I was quite upset and
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uh basically
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uh expressed extreme displeasure and he
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said we'll talk about it when you come
00:19:59
back to New
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York um implied that I I wanted to quit
00:20:03
and he said that uh maybe there were too
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many cooks in the kitchen and he was
00:20:09
going to Eastern Europe for four or five
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years he'd be out of touch and then he'd
00:20:14
find out whether he had been in my hair
00:20:17
or if I really was incompetent that's
00:20:20
that's sort of the way he talks the way
00:20:22
we think except he actually says it and
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luckily for me while while he was gone
00:20:28
the Bur Wall came down I invested in the
00:20:30
deut mark but I think it was lucky for
00:20:33
both of us I went on like the best run
00:20:35
I've had before or since for like four
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years so he kept seeing the results so I
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think he trusted my intuition only
00:20:45
because the record started that way do
00:20:48
you trust the intuition of your
00:20:49
colleagues now I trust their analysis
00:20:52
they're they're so much deeper and
00:20:55
better at analysis than I was
00:20:59
um but I can see the intuition
00:21:02
developing that uh I'm I'm probably as
00:21:06
bullish on the talent the equity talent
00:21:09
in my firm as I've been in 45 years so I
00:21:12
guess that's that's an ner of yes but
00:21:15
partly uh brain partly analytics and
00:21:19
then partly intuition they're not as
00:21:21
intuitive as I am because it'll have to
00:21:24
be I was sort of forced to be intuitive
00:21:27
because I don't I never acquire their
00:21:29
analytical skills you mentioned some
00:21:31
examples of where you had sold um a bit
00:21:33
early do you do you generally sell early
00:21:36
no I mean embarrassingly I I did an
00:21:39
interview on Nvidia I think it was like
00:21:41
370 or something and I said this is one
00:21:43
we're probably going to own for a few
00:21:45
years but I didn't think it was going to
00:21:47
go to 900 in a year uh and to over a$2
00:21:51
trillion market cap I think it started
00:21:53
like 100 billion or 150 billion it was
00:21:56
something crazy um
00:21:59
so no I don't necessarily sell early I'm
00:22:02
a technician so I usually wait for Tops
00:22:05
um Nvidia had no top I just thought um
00:22:10
what does that just want to explain what
00:22:11
does it mean to have a top a top is
00:22:14
something the rate of change of it's
00:22:16
going up changes and it tends to flatten
00:22:19
out for quite some time the trick is in
00:22:22
the technical world that could end up
00:22:24
being a bull flag where it just
00:22:27
Consolidated for a bit and then did a
00:22:28
new leg or it could be a top where that
00:22:33
was it that was it and how do you know
00:22:34
which is which you don't you have an
00:22:37
opinion and um you express it and
00:22:39
sometimes you're right and sometimes
00:22:41
you're wrong with
00:22:42
Nvidia um there was no top but I just
00:22:49
I've I've analyzed the semiconductors
00:22:51
industry not particularly well but since
00:22:53
the
00:22:55
1970s and it's a cycal industry m and I
00:22:58
knew Nvidia had staying power and was
00:23:01
they had 4,000 software Engineers so it
00:23:03
wasn't just Hardware you know they have
00:23:05
a Cuda this thing called cuda software
00:23:07
that they do to to make their gpus but I
00:23:10
just thought once it went through two
00:23:12
trillion this is just too much and worst
00:23:16
case it'll have a big correction I'll
00:23:17
get another chance and of course I
00:23:20
didn't get another chance oh you may yes
00:23:22
I may you think you will uh I don't know
00:23:26
from this price I assume I will or would
00:23:28
have bought it back I don't mind buying
00:23:30
something back higher than I would I
00:23:33
don't like it but I'm perfectly willing
00:23:35
to buy something back higher than I sold
00:23:36
it some people can't get themselves do
00:23:39
it oh I can I'm the one thing I'm strong
00:23:42
on is I'm not emotional but um you never
00:23:47
had a down a no stupid question why is
00:23:50
that important no good reason I think
00:23:52
it's it's important because other people
00:23:55
talk about it and uh my investors loved
00:23:58
it one ah had of investors because um
00:24:00
you know they have this stuff in our
00:24:02
industry you know called risk weighted
00:24:04
return I'm not big on that but I will
00:24:07
say it's a stressful job and there's
00:24:10
less stress if you don't have big draw
00:24:12
Downs I have had significant draw Downs
00:24:15
in inner year so part of the down year
00:24:18
is just luck what does a draw down do to
00:24:20
you I get uh anxious upset uh you get
00:24:25
upet even though it's only your money
00:24:26
yes yeah I'm just
00:24:28
um I'm a very competitive person even if
00:24:31
it's just my own money I I wish I wasn't
00:24:35
but I am and uh it's probably one of the
00:24:38
reasons my results are as good as they
00:24:39
are but I prefer myself not to be um
00:24:44
it's a bit of a sickness but it works
00:24:45
for me who do you compete against I
00:24:47
compete against what I would call the
00:24:49
opportunity set and if there was a great
00:24:52
opportunity set that year and I missed
00:24:55
it um I'm disappointed in my myself like
00:24:59
if I'm up 20 and I think I should have
00:25:00
been up 50 I'm disappointed in myself if
00:25:03
the opportunity set was basically to be
00:25:06
up 10 or 15 and an up 20 I'm thrilled I
00:25:09
mean the good the good thing about being
00:25:10
an investor is always a good reason to
00:25:12
hit yourself in a head right I don't
00:25:13
know if that's a good thing about our
00:25:16
business but it's it's probably the bad
00:25:18
thing about our business and for some
00:25:20
reason I like to hit myself in the head
00:25:22
I always measure from the top but you um
00:25:26
are quick at selling your losers
00:25:28
what's the key to that if the reason I
00:25:31
bought a
00:25:32
stock is no longer the case I don't care
00:25:36
what I paid for it and if I bought it at
00:25:39
60 and it's 50 because the markets
00:25:42
discovered the problem before me I have
00:25:46
I have no emotion whatsoever um Soros
00:25:50
was the same way I didn't really learn
00:25:52
it from him but it was certainly
00:25:54
reinforced like after a while Nikolai
00:25:57
you all so develop enough confidence
00:26:00
that you're not afraid to clean the
00:26:02
slate and start over cuz you have the
00:26:05
confidence that you'll be successful
00:26:07
again and you're not going to sit there
00:26:08
in a lazy position that you're not that
00:26:11
sure about anymore just clean house and
00:26:14
if you've been doing it for decades and
00:26:16
it's worked you kind of have the
00:26:18
confidence to take a loss and not worry
00:26:21
about it too
00:26:22
much once I'm out I'm out you said you
00:26:25
don't have feelings what do you what do
00:26:27
you mean by that did I say don't have
00:26:28
feelings I have a lot of feelings you
00:26:30
mean about taking losses yeah just what
00:26:34
I mean by that is I think one of the
00:26:37
reasons charts work we have the reason
00:26:41
there's support and there's um there's
00:26:44
resistance is the resistance is a bunch
00:26:46
of people that bought it at 60 and it
00:26:48
went down and they've been waiting for
00:26:49
three or four years for it to get back
00:26:51
to 60 while they could have been in
00:26:53
something else that was going up the
00:26:54
whole time um I just don't care
00:26:59
what I paid for a stock it's absolutely
00:27:01
irrelevant uh in terms of my investment
00:27:04
process going forward now this uh
00:27:06
combination of being on the one hand
00:27:08
stubborn but other hand being able to
00:27:10
change your
00:27:11
mind it's pretty rare I'm told it is
00:27:15
yeah I told by my friends and other
00:27:17
investors that
00:27:18
I'm
00:27:20
entirely unemotional and
00:27:23
like yes I am told it's rare is that the
00:27:27
key to your success you think one of
00:27:29
them
00:27:30
I I think I think it's I think it's a
00:27:33
big part of it I think again um being
00:27:38
being open-minded and having humility
00:27:40
the only reason you can change your mind
00:27:43
is if you're not arrogant about a
00:27:46
position has mattered I think I had some
00:27:50
great mentors the one in Pittsburgh and
00:27:52
then Soros in terms of sizing and I
00:27:55
think I learned some lessons very early
00:27:57
on uh
00:28:00
concentration not to be afraid of
00:28:02
concentration that that's a big reason
00:28:04
for my success and probably the other
00:28:07
big reason was sort of self-taught
00:28:10
is being willing to go into other asset
00:28:13
categories and if you're going to
00:28:15
concentrate it's better to have five
00:28:18
buckets to plan than to plan one so I
00:28:20
was brought up in the equity Market but
00:28:23
sometimes the risk reward in the equity
00:28:25
Market is not that clear when it
00:28:27
actually is clear clearing the bond
00:28:28
market or the currency
00:28:30
markets and it's a coincidence you asked
00:28:33
about never h a down year part of it is
00:28:36
the most action in bonds and currencies
00:28:39
tends to happen in bare markets and
00:28:41
Equity markets so you can put the put
00:28:44
the equities in the drawer for a while
00:28:47
and just concentrate in those markets I
00:28:49
think that's been a huge part of my
00:28:51
successes is it gives you the discipline
00:28:55
not to play in areas that you don't have
00:28:56
a lot of conviction in because if you
00:28:58
got credit to play in if you got
00:29:01
Commodities to play in currencies or
00:29:03
bonds you can usually find something
00:29:06
that you think there's a great risk
00:29:08
award in it's also they tend to be more
00:29:10
liquid than Equity markets so to our
00:29:13
earlier conversation you can change your
00:29:15
mind when you're wrong what do you learn
00:29:17
about siing from Source I don't know
00:29:20
whether you know about do you know
00:29:21
baseball at all or would your listen
00:29:23
about I don't play it but uh when I went
00:29:25
to Soros I thought I would learn what
00:29:28
would make de Mark go up in the end go
00:29:30
up and modestly I found I was better at
00:29:32
that than him um in baseball terms I
00:29:37
have a I had a very high batting average
00:29:40
he had a much higher slugging percentage
00:29:43
um so what I learned from
00:29:45
Soros is when you have
00:29:48
conviction you should bet really big I
00:29:51
know your listeners have probably heard
00:29:53
it before but I but probably the best
00:29:55
illustration is the pound yeah so what
00:29:58
happened so let's go back so you are in
00:29:59
the office what's happening in the UK so
00:30:02
I'm in the office in New York and Scott
00:30:06
bessent um who was a partner of mine in
00:30:10
Europe mainly trade the European area
00:30:12
he's in London and he tells me the
00:30:15
London housing market is in big trouble
00:30:17
and the British economy is in trouble
00:30:21
because like most Anglo sex and
00:30:23
economies at the time it's very much
00:30:24
driven by housing and so forth Just P it
00:30:28
out a bit so your office are you like
00:30:29
overlooking Central Park
00:30:33
uh I'm not overlooking Central Park but
00:30:36
I'm near it I I'm in the Soros office on
00:30:38
32nd Floor but it's okay it's not a
00:30:41
corner office it's nothing big fail see
00:30:43
and the UK economy is going down the
00:30:45
toilet we think the U econom is going
00:30:48
down but I need to take you back
00:30:50
about 3 years when the Berlin Wall cam
00:30:54
comes down it'll probably save me my job
00:30:56
cuz I probably would have been fir at
00:30:58
Soros 6 months after he went to Eastern
00:31:01
Europe had the Berlin wallnut come down
00:31:04
but um the de Mark went down for two
00:31:07
days dramatically because the theory in
00:31:11
the market was the osmark which was the
00:31:13
East German currency was going to
00:31:15
pollute the deut Mark I knew German
00:31:18
history and knew they were obsessed with
00:31:20
inflation because the viar Republic and
00:31:22
then that led to Hitler and so forth and
00:31:24
so on so I knew the Germans were
00:31:26
absolutely obsessed with inflation I
00:31:29
knew that all bringing all these East
00:31:31
Germans into the labor Supply was going
00:31:34
to cause a boom in the economy so we
00:31:37
were very bullish on the overall German
00:31:41
economy and we were very
00:31:43
convinced that there is no way the
00:31:46
bundes bank would let inflation so we're
00:31:48
very convinced it would be accompanied
00:31:49
by tight monetary policy so we had
00:31:53
shorted the Italian L
00:31:56
successfully um during that per period
00:31:58
so when the when Scott called me we were
00:32:02
already sort of on this deark journey
00:32:05
we've been for a few
00:32:06
years and the British econom is going
00:32:09
down and new currencies are linked so it
00:32:11
was a peg right it was a peg so um I
00:32:15
called and asked how much it would cost
00:32:18
me to Short the pound versus the deut
00:32:21
mark for six months it was a half a
00:32:23
percent I think the fund was around 7
00:32:26
and a half billion at the time Quantum
00:32:29
fund and I decided to do an invest and
00:32:33
then investigate position so I did a
00:32:35
billion and a half or like 20 25% of the
00:32:39
fund short the pound long the deut mark
00:32:42
figuring I'd probably lose a half per
00:32:44
because it's a Peg and it won't break
00:32:46
within 6 months but I wanted the
00:32:48
position on Fast Forward probably about
00:32:51
five or six weeks the day I believe was
00:32:54
September 15th not that I would remember
00:32:57
um
00:32:58
I read the financial times and the head
00:33:01
of the bunis
00:33:03
bank now I'm sure I'm age but I'm pretty
00:33:05
sure it was te Meer has written an
00:33:09
editorial in the financial times
00:33:12
basically in more proper language but
00:33:15
he's basically saying that the deark and
00:33:17
the pound should no longer be linked so
00:33:20
I decide to take Duan and the quantum
00:33:24
fund to 100% long the deark
00:33:28
short the pound because it's still a
00:33:30
half a perc unbelievably now you're
00:33:32
going to hear vintage Soros so he
00:33:35
happens to be in New York at the time
00:33:38
which he wasn't always I go into his
00:33:40
office and I explain to
00:33:44
him why I'm going to
00:33:47
100% And he had a rather large personal
00:33:50
account that's how we kept each other
00:33:52
out of each other's hair he traded that
00:33:54
and you know it was 90 90 95% overlap
00:33:58
told him why I was doing this and he had
00:34:01
this um unpleasant puzzled look on his
00:34:04
face when I'm telling him my thesis that
00:34:06
this one economy is booming and they
00:34:08
need higher rates this other economy is
00:34:10
falling apart they need lower rates
00:34:12
that's these two currencies shouldn't be
00:34:15
linked and I'm thinking what does he not
00:34:18
understand about this because this guy
00:34:20
pretty much understood
00:34:22
everything and he says uh look this is
00:34:25
uh this is a one-way bet they come along
00:34:29
very very rarely it's ridiculous doing
00:34:32
100% we should put 200% of the fund in
00:34:35
this
00:34:36
trade so there you have it so that means
00:34:38
that you borrow money in the bank and
00:34:41
double up yeah on a $7.5 billion fund he
00:34:45
thought we should have $15
00:34:47
billion short the pound long the
00:34:51
deark um it turns out we never got there
00:34:56
but it shows the way the man thinks I
00:34:58
saw it over and over again because you
00:35:00
once you were trading the thing happened
00:35:03
yeah unfortunately we had a we had a
00:35:05
pretty strong reputation and when I
00:35:08
started selling it that night I noticed
00:35:11
a lot of other hedge funds started
00:35:13
selling at the gossip community and the
00:35:16
currency markets and by midnight to 1:00
00:35:19
the Fords had blown out they'd started
00:35:21
they at a half a percent they were like
00:35:23
6 or 7% and it basically wasn't trading
00:35:26
after 1:00 in the morning
00:35:28
then the British raised rates I think
00:35:31
from 6 to 9 to try and stop the bleeding
00:35:34
and then they went to 12 I knew it was
00:35:36
over but the forward to rout so much
00:35:38
didn't matter and it was it was done by
00:35:40
noon the next day and you were sitting
00:35:42
at your desk looking at the royter
00:35:44
screen yes or whatever the screen at the
00:35:46
time was we only got 7 and a half
00:35:50
billion done ironically well I have to
00:35:53
had it not been for Soros I probably
00:35:54
would have not got to the 7 and a half
00:35:56
cuz you know intending to do 15 I was in
00:35:59
a bigger hurry so what did you feel when
00:36:02
when he broke there was a lot of
00:36:04
adrenaline um it was exciting I didn't
00:36:06
feel bad because I thought the British
00:36:09
economy needed it I was gratified years
00:36:11
later when they changed it from black
00:36:13
Wednesday to White Wednesday then I went
00:36:15
into action after it broke because the
00:36:18
guilts were down two points which I
00:36:21
thought was
00:36:22
ridiculous British needed lower rates
00:36:24
there's some theory in the Academia that
00:36:27
if you have a weak currency your
00:36:29
interest rates have to go up so I bought
00:36:30
guilts I bought British stocks there was
00:36:33
a whole because what happened was that
00:36:35
the currency depreciated and it was good
00:36:37
for exports right so the stocks went up
00:36:38
afterwards the stocks went up the guilts
00:36:41
went up because they needed lower rates
00:36:43
and you know they'd been held
00:36:45
artificially high so there was all kinds
00:36:47
of other stuff I did around it uh which
00:36:51
is kind of the way I trade you get a
00:36:54
theme and then you look at the
00:36:56
concentric circles or the or The
00:36:57
Dominoes that fall because of a
00:37:00
theme and but the point was with Soros
00:37:04
if he really believe something the
00:37:07
position could be never be big enough
00:37:09
yeah particularly if it's in a liquid
00:37:11
market and I learned from him I like to
00:37:15
play the turn maybe my ego in in a in a
00:37:19
big turn in something he was perfectly
00:37:21
happy to play from the third to the
00:37:23
sixth inning if we go back to baseball
00:37:25
terms of it's a nine inning game he was
00:37:27
perfectly happy to play the third to
00:37:29
sixth inning when there was more
00:37:30
certainty on much greater leverage he
00:37:33
had more courage than I did in terms of
00:37:36
sizing positions I don't think it
00:37:38
totally rubbed off on me but it
00:37:40
certainly helped and it it was a huge
00:37:42
learning experience I think the major
00:37:45
thing I learned with him is it's not
00:37:47
whether you're right or wrong it's how
00:37:48
much you make when you're right and how
00:37:49
much you lose when you're wrong and
00:37:51
that's what he was probably as good as
00:37:53
anybody who's ever been at Stan um many
00:37:56
people have heard about the pound but um
00:37:59
not many people know that you also did
00:38:02
the Swedish Groner yes um my memory's a
00:38:06
little
00:38:07
less clear on that one as to the
00:38:11
reasoning but it was just
00:38:13
another another victim of the deark yeah
00:38:16
um I assume there was some kind of
00:38:19
Divergence between the two economies and
00:38:21
and there was a peg that I thought was
00:38:24
inappropriate and it turned out yeah
00:38:26
that worked out so you took that Peg too
00:38:29
but you took another Peg too because I
00:38:31
thought you were also involved with the
00:38:32
tibot yeah the tibot was easy they they
00:38:36
um but but nobody knows about this right
00:38:39
no I think um Sebastian Malby wrote a
00:38:42
book called more money than God there's
00:38:44
a whole chapter on the tibot that was
00:38:46
not on the Swedish croner no the Swedish
00:38:48
croner no no I prefer nobody knew any of
00:38:51
this stuff but well we need to get it
00:38:53
right for the history books I'm happy to
00:38:54
talk about it 25 years later any trades
00:38:57
you regret not making oh
00:39:00
there's there's trades I regret not
00:39:02
making um constantly I'd say one of the
00:39:06
biggest mistakes I made was having
00:39:09
predicted the inflation really early and
00:39:12
feeling so strongly about it I wrote a
00:39:15
piece in the Wall Street Journal with my
00:39:16
partner Christian broa in the spring of
00:39:19
21 I had a mass of short for me in two
00:39:24
years um sort of like we just talked
00:39:28
about with the pound it was a one-way
00:39:30
bet they were 15 basis points and I was
00:39:33
so measured by where they'd win where
00:39:37
they'd been I took most of them off at
00:39:40
like 150 basis points it seemed like a
00:39:42
great win from 15 to basis point to 150
00:39:46
but as you know they went to 500 I
00:39:49
regret deeply not holding that position
00:39:52
there's probably 30 others but I prefer
00:39:54
to forget my mistakes do you think
00:39:57
machines can take the place of humans
00:39:59
when it comes to investing no I don't
00:40:02
but I think they can work um as a CO
00:40:07
co-pilot and the combination can beat
00:40:10
anything a mere human could be I'm lucky
00:40:13
enough to have known Gary caspro for a
00:40:16
long time I'm co-founder of the casprov
00:40:19
chess
00:40:21
Foundation um for no good reason I I I
00:40:24
can hardly play chess my 9-year-old
00:40:26
daughter was beating me that's how I
00:40:28
started with Gary but um he was probably
00:40:31
one of the first guys to use machines to
00:40:34
train himself and work with them I could
00:40:37
see the same thing happening with money
00:40:39
management so I don't think the pure
00:40:42
machines they'll make money because they
00:40:44
have a disciplined process and there's
00:40:46
math but I think if you could find an
00:40:49
intuitive investor who's using Ai and
00:40:53
other things to supplement I think that
00:40:56
would probably be the top investor in
00:40:59
the world not a machine now you took um
00:41:02
sabatical in 200000 yeah what was the
00:41:05
reason behind
00:41:07
that it's a it's a painful but really
00:41:10
fun story um it really it really
00:41:15
starts in
00:41:18
1998 well no it starts in the spring of
00:41:21
1999 I shorted I think it was 11 or 12
00:41:25
internet stocks not the leaders like aoi
00:41:29
or Yahoo but the also rans and I I
00:41:33
believe the position was like $200
00:41:36
million and in like four
00:41:39
weeks I had lost like $600 million so it
00:41:43
was the first time I'd ever had a big
00:41:46
draw down I was down like 16 or
00:41:50
7% in the spring of 99 I then pivoted
00:41:55
and realized that green span e because
00:41:57
of the agent financial crisis while our
00:42:00
economy was strong and we had the
00:42:01
internet and all this behind it I went
00:42:04
out and hired um a couple of young
00:42:07
managers to buy tech stocks that I
00:42:10
didn't know how to spell they had their
00:42:11
own little accounts and like I would
00:42:13
plow in on top of their
00:42:15
positions and we ended up the year I
00:42:19
think something like 42 net or something
00:42:22
after being in this deole because you
00:42:25
know I rode this crazy n sck wave in 99
00:42:29
so then uh in January I just said this
00:42:34
is ridiculous and um I sold out all my
00:42:38
tech Holdings like I can't remember it
00:42:41
was like they had grown to like $
00:42:43
billion dollar or it was it was enormous
00:42:45
for that period of time and I actually
00:42:47
went and told Soros why I had sold them
00:42:50
out and next thing that happens the two
00:42:54
little satellites inside they don't sell
00:42:57
out they're gamblers I don't really care
00:43:00
cuz quantum's huge and they're this
00:43:01
little thing they're not going to affect
00:43:03
the performance that much but Nikolai
00:43:05
they're making like four to 5% a day I
00:43:09
mean the market is still roaring going
00:43:11
into March and I'm uh I'm watching this
00:43:15
and I'm
00:43:16
getting really annoyed with myself that
00:43:19
I'm not I'm not still in this trade and
00:43:21
then uh around early March I can't take
00:43:25
it anymore and I told you earlier I'm
00:43:28
not emotional this was this was a real
00:43:32
emotional really dumb move um I buy
00:43:36
everything
00:43:37
back I think I missed the top by about
00:43:40
an
00:43:41
hour so I buy back all these tech
00:43:45
stocks and within a week I know I'm dead
00:43:49
and Quantum goes from like up 14% to up
00:43:52
1% in a
00:43:54
week and I go in and I now I've already
00:43:57
been through the trauma of the spring
00:43:59
before I recovered from it but it it had
00:44:02
a big effect on me the the stress I had
00:44:05
young kids you know and it's like a
00:44:09
repeat of the year before so I go into
00:44:12
Soros and I tell them two things a I'm
00:44:16
getting out of all this stuff B uh I'm
00:44:21
quitting um we can't tell anybody cuz I
00:44:24
got I got to liquidate this portfolio
00:44:26
but the NASDAQ is in the beginning wave
00:44:30
of a Down 90% move and you can't get out
00:44:32
so by the time I get out takes a few
00:44:35
weeks the fund is down like
00:44:38
177% and duain is down
00:44:41
177% and uh I'm just exhausted I've been
00:44:44
running this high-profile fund for 12
00:44:47
years so I sell everything out
00:44:50
everything of
00:44:52
duaine send my investors a letter and
00:44:55
say uh I'm going on a sabatical I don't
00:44:59
know whether I'm coming back or not you
00:45:02
can take all your money out but if you
00:45:04
take your money out if I decide to come
00:45:06
back I can't guarantee I'll let you back
00:45:09
in I think I had like 200 clients one of
00:45:12
them pulled their money I remember who
00:45:14
it was but they'll remain anonymous for
00:45:17
now
00:45:18
so I I shut everything down I go to
00:45:23
Africa with my wife and kids and the
00:45:26
best thing I did is during the summer I
00:45:28
refused to expose myself in any way to
00:45:32
something that would tell me where the
00:45:34
markets were so I'm not allowed to watch
00:45:37
TV I'm not allowed to see the Wall
00:45:39
Street Journal prices nothing so I come
00:45:42
back in labor day I think my wife
00:45:45
couldn't have handled me being around uh
00:45:48
once the kids go back to
00:45:50
school uh sort of humor maybe not uh
00:45:55
so I come back and it's remarkable
00:45:58
because the S&P has rallied back almost
00:46:02
to the high the nasdaq's retrace about
00:46:05
85% of the decline but the dollar is up
00:46:09
interest rates are up and oil is up
00:46:12
three death nails for markets if you
00:46:15
look at history so I then start calling
00:46:18
all my clients who are basically small
00:46:20
businessmen they're not fancy
00:46:22
institutions and all their
00:46:25
businesses are terrible
00:46:27
so then I call Ed Heyman and I say he
00:46:30
Equity strategists microeconomist yeah
00:46:33
he's probably was the number one
00:46:35
institutional guy whatever that rating
00:46:37
Institutional Investor
00:46:39
Economist and um I say this is very odd
00:46:44
and I've been out of touch dollars up
00:46:46
blah blah blah blah and uh two days
00:46:50
later in his daily missive he has
00:46:53
regression analysis and it says um it's
00:46:57
50% I think currency 25% oil and 25%
00:47:01
interest rates and it looks one year
00:47:05
forward and it predicts earnings and
00:47:09
it's predicting that earnings are going
00:47:11
to decline 36% the next year and the
00:47:15
Wall Street consensuses are going to go
00:47:17
up 18% so combination of that listening
00:47:21
to my clients the fact that Greenspan
00:47:24
got a tightening directive on which I
00:47:25
think is inappropriate
00:47:28
I start buying all these
00:47:30
treasuries and the market doesn't go my
00:47:32
way but all the information keeps going
00:47:34
so I keep buying more and more and more
00:47:36
and more so now I have a 350% tenure
00:47:42
equivalent in the fund and then I get
00:47:45
lucky with the gore Bush
00:47:48
Fiasco economy falls apart I end up
00:47:51
making 40% in the fourth quarter so I
00:47:55
had I had written the year off I I when
00:47:57
I came back I'm down 18 I assume okay at
00:48:00
least I got don't have to worry about
00:48:02
this anymore i' finally going to have it
00:48:04
down year and it's like the best quarter
00:48:07
I ever had and to this day if I had
00:48:10
stayed managing money I think I'd been
00:48:13
tied of knots and there's no way I would
00:48:15
make that trade it was the fact that I
00:48:16
was a raid for four months had a clean
00:48:20
slate had a clear head and just looked
00:48:22
at the New
00:48:23
Evidence so it was a very very very
00:48:27
horrible beginning and a very lucky
00:48:30
ending now you don't take um four months
00:48:33
off very often uh you work very hard
00:48:35
when do you wake up in the morning 4 4
00:48:37
in the morning yeah what do you do uh I
00:48:40
you have you have an an office at home
00:48:42
right yeah yeah I immediately go to the
00:48:44
Bloomberg and 4:00 you do you make a cup
00:48:46
of coffee before you go to Bloomberg or
00:48:47
straight to Bloomberg yes no yeah I make
00:48:50
a cup of coffee I go up I don't shower
00:48:52
yet check all the markets read the
00:48:55
journal
00:48:57
skim the financial times skim the New
00:48:59
York Times check like all the emails
00:49:02
overnight when I say check I mean skim
00:49:04
them for the important ones then it's
00:49:07
probably uh 5:15 or 5:30 take a shower
00:49:11
go to work start all over again when you
00:49:13
go to bed uh usually around 8:30 qu or 9
00:49:16
as soon as I see Japan what's happening
00:49:19
you basically live according to
00:49:20
financial markets yes uh my
00:49:22
mother-in-law said a long time ago I'm
00:49:24
an idiot savant she thought she was
00:49:26
joking but she's correct it's the only
00:49:29
thing I'm really good at I really enjoy
00:49:31
it keeps me young I'm dealing with
00:49:33
brilliant young people here as analysts
00:49:35
but also I forc to read the newspaper
00:49:38
and forc to learn about these waves and
00:49:41
uh keeps me stimulated I love it now you
00:49:44
are 71 right yes and you will continue
00:49:47
until you until you die you think
00:49:51
yes hopefully it won't be
00:49:55
tonight no I think probably not I do um
00:49:59
s last thing we got 10 thousands of
00:50:00
young people here now they want to be
00:50:03
like you make a lot of money be
00:50:05
successful in financial markets what
00:50:06
should they be doing how should they
00:50:09
enter what what should they think about
00:50:11
first of all if they're going in it for
00:50:14
the money they should go elsewhere yeah
00:50:17
there's too many people in the business
00:50:19
like me that just love the game and the
00:50:21
passion for reasons I just
00:50:24
articulated and they're not going to be
00:50:26
to out work the people that are
00:50:28
passionate in the game and it's not a
00:50:31
fun game if you're losing it's horrible
00:50:33
I
00:50:34
just told you and the how I respond to
00:50:37
draw Downs so but if they have a passion
00:50:40
for it if I was a young person I would
00:50:42
not get an MBA I'd go find a mentor and
00:50:47
if they didn't want me I would just
00:50:49
relentlessly bug the hell out of them
00:50:50
which a couple of have done with me
00:50:53
until they finally accepted me to go and
00:50:56
work for them learn what I could from
00:50:58
them if they still like the business
00:51:00
just keep trying to grow your knowledge
00:51:02
base I would say an analyst skill set in
00:51:06
our business is completely different
00:51:08
than a portfolio manager skill set once
00:51:11
in a while you'll get an overlap but I
00:51:15
would be careful if they really love the
00:51:17
the analyst part which is where we all
00:51:19
start of thinking they have to become a
00:51:22
portfolio manager I've seen it ruin
00:51:25
people's lives who weren't built for
00:51:27
trigger pulling so they should be
00:51:28
open-minded I got in the business
00:51:31
because I wanted intellectual
00:51:32
stimulation and you're going to get
00:51:34
plenty in either one but that would be
00:51:37
that would be my advice to them and be
00:51:40
open-minded stand this been a an epic
00:51:44
conversation thanks Nikolai I probably
00:51:47
said more than I should have you said
00:51:48
exact we get in too much trouble thank
00:51:51
you
00:51:52
[Music]