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we're joined today by commissioner
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General Philip lazarini uh the head of
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unra the United Nations palestin
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Palestinian relief agency and we're live
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from un headquarters in New York
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commissioner General you've described
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the current situation in Gaza as
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dystopian as
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post-apocalyptic and yet potentially it
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could get even worse we're looking at a
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situation where in January there could
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be Israeli legislation implemented that
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would outlaw or on top of everything
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else that people in Gaza are suffering
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what would this mean for
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them I did um describe the situation as
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being a dystopian orror I mean uh if you
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listen to our colleagues on the ground
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they're telling us stories about people
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in north of Gaza just uh waiting to be
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killed by a strike um think trying to
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struggle not to die again because of
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diseases or because of hunger um the
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level of Destruction is absolutely
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unbelievable and um indeed uh people
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have been reduced to leave in the reubel
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in the garbage in the sewage water and
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without any hope of a better future now
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in this context we have an human
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response un is a backbone of this resp
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response partner with number of un
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agencies but would unoa have to
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disappear from Gaza not only our
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Collective ability to respond to
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unprecedented need would decrease but we
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would also sacrifice the future
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generation today stepen we have more
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than 650,000 girls and boys living in
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the rubble deeply traumatized
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and if you get rid of an agency like un
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who will be in charge to bring them back
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in a learning environment there is
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absolutely no United Nation agency
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geared to
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provide public like services like
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education at the primary secondary
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age that would mean sacrificing an
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entire generation that would also mean
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uh you know uh um that we would plant
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the seed for more extremism for more
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resentment and for more hate in the
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future so the consequences would
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definitely be catastrophic and for those
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unaware of of what exactly unra does on
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the ground not just in Gaza but um in
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the West Bank and in East Jerusalem and
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Lebanon and Syria it goes beyond
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education right what are the services do
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you provide for Palestinian refugees
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well on is primarily operating in
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Lebanon in Sy Syria in Jordan in the
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West Bank East Jerusalem and Gaza we are
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primarily a human development
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organization providing public like
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services such as education to more than
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550,000 girls and boys across the region
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we are running 700 school but we are
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also providing Primary Health Care to
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more than 2 million people across the
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region and only in Gaza today despite
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the War despite the challenges our staff
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are confronted with we are still
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providing on a daily basis 16,000
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consultation how do you do that in times
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of War during active combat more than
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around 90% of gazer is considered um
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under Evac evacuation orders how do your
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staff actually operate are they also on
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the moved or are you positioned in your
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your your traditional centers what is
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what is it like on the that daily life
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for you know our staff is primarily from
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the community so basically they endure
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the same uh challenges the same
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suffering the same tragedy than anyone
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else in Gaza as you know people have
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been on the moon on the Move constantly
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they have been kind of a pinballs our
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staff also being part of the community
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has followed the community our staff
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also is living in shelters shelter which
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as you know most of the time have been
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damaged or even targeted so somehow our
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strength is that our staff is part of
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the community and because they are part
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of the community because they move with
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the community we have this proximity and
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ability to provide these Services there
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seems to be on the one hand some
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consensus on this the United States has
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said that unas mission is critical the
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security Council has demanded that it
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not be disbanded and yet this
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legislation could pass what actual steps
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can be taken who are you talking to here
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at the United Nations Headquarters what
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can be done if anything well I addressed
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the general assembly last week I went
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also to Riad for the Global Alliance for
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the two-state solution and my ask to the
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member states is very clear first we
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need to convince the Israeli government
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to put on hold the implementation of
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these laws and one this is on all we
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need to insert the role of the agency
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within any possible political paway
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leading to a two-state solution leading
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to empowered a Palestinian institution
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in fact only a functioning state public
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institution can properly take over the
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activities of un and if we do not do
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this and if in three months time we stop
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stop abruptly all the activities of un
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that would create a vacuum it's like
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throwing the baby with the water and if
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there is a vacuum how will it be filled
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because there is absolutely no ecosystem
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which like vacuums and certainly not by
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anything that Israel or the Palestinian
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or any of us would like to see are you
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taking your case directly to Donald
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Trump now that he's been elected as the
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next president of the United States well
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the the newly elected president has
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indicated that promoting peace will be a
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priority I do believe that they cannot
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be peace without addressing the
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Palestinian issues which would mean that
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if there is a pathway indeed unoa has a
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positive and important role to play so
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yes I will be reaching out in order to
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uh to ensure or to propose that the
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agency
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retrieve in fact it's a temporary nature
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we have been a temporary agency for 75
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years but if we are genuinely committed
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to a political passway today we might
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retrieve the temporary nature of the
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agency and what about with the Israelis
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are there direct talks or indirect talks
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through mediators to press home this
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point that you've made this week at the
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UN that if unir has to stand down
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ultimately it's up to Israel to take
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take care of the people on the ground in
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Gaza yes ultimately if unwa has to end
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up its activity and un is a United
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Nation response to the plight of the
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Palestinian refugees the UN in reality
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is a tool of the International Community
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of the United of the UN General Assembly
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so if unwise dismantle or has to end its
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activities on demand of one member state
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that means the owners will shift back on
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the shoulder of the occupying power
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being the state of Israel and they will
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have to be the one to provide education
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and Primary Health to millions of
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Palestinian you've said this law is
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politically motivated what did you mean
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by that who could possibly stand to gain
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from a situation like this you know we
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we keep hearing that uh this law has
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been designed because un was colluding
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or infiltrated by Hamas but you know we
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we are just a casualty of this war we we
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are a soft target uh we have been under
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harsh criticism uh from Hamas over the
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last few years because of our education
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because we were promoting gender
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equality because we were organizing
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summer camp with girls and boys together
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to promote art music uh uh and Sport um
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and there is also in Israel a believe
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that if if you get rid of un you will
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strip the Palestinian from the refugee
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statue and through this you will also
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undermine the future aspiration of the
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Palestinian for selfdetermination in a
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certain extent they are modif
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unilaterally modifying the parameter for
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a future solution so yes I do believe
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that the primary reason behind this law
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and we heard it from the AU of the law
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saying this is one opportunity in a
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generation to once for all put an end to
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the refugee statue or to the victimhood
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that un might have perpetuated but here
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again it's a false argument because even
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if un would end its activities uh the
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refugee statue will continue the refugee
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statue is in shrined in resolution 194
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of the general assembly where the
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Mandate of on is inin in a complete
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different resolution which was adopted
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later on let's talk about Aid uh you um
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we all know that the Biden
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Administration Set uh an ultimatum and
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said aid needs to increase into Gaza
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Where Do We Stand currently on that are
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they anywhere near Meeting those goals
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and you you talk a lot about
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accountability what if those goals are
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not met what actually happens in the
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International System well you know the
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Secretary General in this opening remark
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at the general assembly was highlighting
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the impunity crisis the world is going
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through and this applies also to the
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situation in in Gaza um we have seen
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over the last months that a FL has
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significantly decreased while at the
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same time there have been an increase of
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military operation but also increase of
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humanit needs and this is the reason why
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we hear from our colleagues that hunger
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is spreading that famine is again uh at
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the corner and people in reality are
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also dying because of uh uh this disease
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and the hunger and I think it would be
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also I mean we we should also be aware
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that there is certainly uh an excess of
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mort of mortality in the gas streer
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which so far has not yet been accounted
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for are you what what's your reaction to
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the global reaction to this this is a
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war really unprecedented in many ways
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and a lot of the international media are
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not able to cover it but there's heroic
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journalism and eyewitness testimony
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happening from people on the ground
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journalists on the ground un workers on
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the ground but what about International
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reaction where's the outrage are you are
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you are you shocked by the fact fact
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that for many this is perhaps being
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factored in as Just Another
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War I think we what is shocking is that
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the
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unbearable is becoming a new norm and
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becomes bearable uh yesterday at the
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force committee I was also saying that
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the difficulty today is that this
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conflict is so divisive is so emotional
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that people are capable to feel
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compassion
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for one side but not for the other side
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which means people have difficulties to
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understand the suffering of the trauma
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October 7 has triggered in Israel and at
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the same time to feel the suffering the
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devastation and the tragedy that the
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Palestinian are going through and I
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think as long we are not capable to have
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the
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Mutual empathy Mutual compassion we will
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still be far away of any reconciliation
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or any Prospect of two people living in
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harmony or in
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peace what about um the financing of
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Anora it costs a lot of money to support
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people on the ground um as we all know
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the Americans um have withheld financial
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aid for you many countries around the
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world did after the brutal attacks of
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October the 7th but that money has come
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back in that's not enough right what
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what are you projecting in terms of
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20125 with the new US Administration and
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are you also worried that there could be
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a knock-on effect that other countries
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might decide to reverse their decision
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to fund on ra you know to to start with
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the cost is absolutely nothing compared
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to what's being invested in military
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capacity uh in this conflict we are
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talking about one or2 billion dollar in
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to2 billion dollar maybe in total to
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respond to an humanitarian tragedy in
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Gaza when we keep hearing about the tens
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of billion dollar being invested for the
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continuation of this war now it is true
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that the appeal for Gaza is currently
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underfunded and that our agency is
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confronted to in the past to a chronic
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financial crisis but our financial
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situation has not improved as you
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rightly mentioned the US united state
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has frozen its contribution it is and
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has been u a
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longstanding partner of the agency the
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biggest donor we still have today a
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short for we are still struggling uh to
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cover all our cost between now and the
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end of the year and it is true that the
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forecast for
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2025 uh sounds quite bleck the US will
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not start its contribution uh during the
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first quarter traditionally they paid
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the contribution at that time a number
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of European countries are also entering
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into austerity budget so indeed 2025
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might be financially also a challenging
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year in fact the agency is going through
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an extraordinary uh existential uh uh uh
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um crisis I described it um at the
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general assembly as being one of the
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darkest hour the agency is going through
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um we have a double challenge um the
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political challenge with a desire to put
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an end to the agency and at the same
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time the financial challenge are there
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any ways to diversify funding are there
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any countries or regions that might be
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stepping up to try and fill that Gap
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well we have seen um in 2024 um that uh
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number of new donors came in and
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primarily from the global South but
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there is this is still far from
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compensating the loss we register from
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our main donor given all these crisis
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and uh your all these headwinds coming
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in your direction is it even possible to
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project forward Beyond this war after a
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ceasefire to the Reconstruction of Gaza
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you you've seen it on the ground your
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team see it every day on the ground it
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seems
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so daunting to try and not only rebuild
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materially Gaza but also do something
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about the trauma of the people how how
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do you project forward in that regard
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well it is uh daunting I think it all
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will depend on the genuine desire and
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commitment of the International
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Community to promote a political Pathway
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to promote peace to promote a two-state
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solution uh what we have seen before
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October 7 was uh increased disinterest
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of the International Community a de
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prioritization of the Israel Palestinian
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uh conflict um and the region had the
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feeling that the International Community
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was turning its back so maybe the shock
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wave um of October 7 uh is now uh you
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know telling us that
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we cannot have a lasting peace in the
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region without the Palestinian issue
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being properly addressed and perhaps a
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possibility for more International media
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to be able to come in for it to resonate
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more in their home countries uh we
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definitely need the presence of
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international media uh we had heroic
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Palestinian journalists who have
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reported the situation in Gaza but
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unfortunately International media have
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been denied access and this is also
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fueling ultimately uh this war of
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narrative uh that we are uh witnessing
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and uh indeed one of the question we
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should ask ourself is what objective is
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Israel pursuing by denying the access of
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international journalist in Gaza
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journalists are used to go in war zone
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they have gone to Afghan Iraq Syria
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Yemen why are they prevented to go to
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Gaza and a critical tool in the fight
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against disinformation exactly
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commissioner General thank you so much
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for your time thank you Stephen
