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welcome to D6 hello hello nice nice to
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meet you uh this is the first English
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interview with you in my channel so I
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welcome to D6 uh this is Professor vinod
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Kumar with
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Nilan the famous writer and South versus
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North India's Great
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Divine this book is written by the Nan
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RS is in a daugh scientist is an
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expertise in data science and also as a
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activist of South issues so uh likly he
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examine why he has written uh this book
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what are the reasons behind that he is
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from Tamil Nadu working
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in G as
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a it it expert so I welcome sir for day
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six so why you have written this book
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sir what of the reasons we all right uh
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thank you first thank you for inviting
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me uh the the reason why I started
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writing this book is that uh uh India
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finds itself in a unique situation
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amongst large Federal unions in the
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world which is that uh the Richer more
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prosperous uh regions of the country
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which is which happen to be the states
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in South India are in a peculiar bind
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which is that their populations are
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shrinking and the prosperity is
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increasing and uh they find this exactly
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at the time when they need greater uh at
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the time when you know they need greater
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control over their policy because they
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kind of moved away from India in terms
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of their uh policy requirements because
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they are slightly more prosperous than
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the rest of the country the country is
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moving towards a more centralized idea
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which is sort of taking away their
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policy prerogatives from them and this
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is happening at the exact same time
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where the financial location to these
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states are getting squeezed because of
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which they are getting less and less
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money and at the same time they are now
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facing the threat of delimitation which
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means they will get less and less
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political representation to fight these
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issues so a combination of all of these
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threats essentially sort of uh uh put
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South India in a situation where they
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may end up as vassel States and that's
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sort of you know the given the Dire
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Straits of the uh crisis I had to write
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this book okay great great what are the
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solutions you suggested this
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book uh for South Indians how to
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strengthen themselves and you know get
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right because the delimitation is one of
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the crisis is going to happen in 2026 so
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what are the solution suggested from
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this book so I go into this quite in
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some detail in this book so uh uh before
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we go into the uh sort of uh Solutions I
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think we should look at what the
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problems are uh uh first there is the
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problem of extreme Divergence amongst uh
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India's uh States in terms of their
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achievements in uh let's say three areas
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health education and Economic
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Opportunity for uh citizens in each and
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every one of these if you take um
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Southern India is far ahead of what is
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what are the states in Indo I'll give
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you an example uh the state of Kerala
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for instance has an IMR that is
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comparable to that of the United States
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the state of mad Pradesh has an IMR that
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is comparable to Afghanistan and IMR is
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globally considered the Benchmark on how
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to measure the health of societies if
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you take gross enrollment ratio
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similarly the literacy rates and of of
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of you know young adults in States like
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Kerala Tamil Nadu Karnataka Tana uh
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these are all like you know upwards of
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90% 95% for young adults right I'm not
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talking about the entire population
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whereas the same uh uh sort of ratio if
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you take a look at Northern India it's
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like 30% points lower right which is
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again like you know that compares with
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subsaharan Africa whereas you know um
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Southern India Compares with middle and
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upper middle income countries right uh
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similarly economic opportunities if you
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I'll give you one statistic which is
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that the total number of factories in
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the state of Tamil NAD which has a
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population of about 70 to 75 million
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people 70 million according to 2011 uh
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you know because we don't have a sensus
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of 2021 we'll stick to 2011
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data this state has uh this state with a
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population of 70 million has more number
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of factories uh than the number of
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factories in the states of UT Pradesh
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Bihar mad Pradesh chhand chattis gar and
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Rajasthan combined right and in these
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Six States of Northern India that total
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population is upward of about 500
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million right which is like a if if it
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were a country of its own it would be
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the second biggest sort of you know uh
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country right like assuming the rest of
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India is not counted yet now in this
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extreme Divergence what happens it means
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that these states demand sort of
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Greater uh policy uh Focus for their own
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peculiar and particular needs that is if
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you have Society whose Health has
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reasonably solved the basic problems it
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then needs Health Solutions which are
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targeted at you know middle and upper
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middle income societies right which are
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dramatically different from the problems
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of uh let's say uh you know uh the
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states in indang ples that is if you
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essentially do not have kids dying
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because of you know basic diseases like
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diarrhea what you want is to focus those
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kids on tertiary care because there are
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very few kids who are dying of basic
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diseases right and tertiary care means
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highend hospitals things of that nature
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right whereas and and therefore you know
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the kind of interventions that you need
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in Southern States is that that tertiary
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care type of an intervention whereas in
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northern states All You Need is You Know
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Better Basics care that is made
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available in farflung areas right so
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these are two dramatically different
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things except what is happening is that
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the union government is trying to have a
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single policy for these two sets of
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states which is resulting in extreme
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imbalance right so neither a Northern
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State served well nor a Southern state
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served well because you know if you
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allow a bureaucrat in Delhi to sit
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arrive at a policy they will somehow
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arrive at the average between these two
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which serves nobody right um uh
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similarly if you take uh the finance
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Finance commission's allocation ratios
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that is we all pay taxes the tax money
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goes to Delhi then the union government
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sort of devolves that tax money back
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right now the problem is that over the
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last uh sort of uh uh several years and
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particularly in the last decade decade
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and a half what has happened is that uh
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um the union government keeps an
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enormous amount of money for itself and
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then of the money that it does devolve
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to you know States a significant chunk
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of it goes to the states in indog
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ganeric ples which is the reason why if
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you had you know uh read the newspaper
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uh newspapers in the last year or
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watched the news you would have seen you
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know for instance the chief minister of
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Karnataka complaining that for every
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sort of rupee that Karnataka you know
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pays as tax it receives about 12 P
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whereas for every rupe that utar Pradesh
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and har and they receive upwards of 2
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rupes 80 or something to that effect
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right so there is this extreme imbalance
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right now what is given this extreme
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imbalance what is the solution that we
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can see an easy sort of knee-jerk
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reactionary solution is that you know uh
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is what Winston Churchill and the white
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man sort of said like at the time of
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Independence which is that you know
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India is never going to be a single
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country it needs to be balkanized or
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broken up right like that is a white
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man's version of
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the of this country instead what do we
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want if we are to analyze the problem
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and look at the solutions we will find
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out that the reason why all of these
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problems exist is because the will of
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the people is not transmitted in our
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governance right and and and and there
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is this transmission loss if you if you
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study the way in which our Parliament
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works you very quickly find out that
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individual MPS are powerless they're
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powerless for a variety of reasons which
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is you know know one of them is the way
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in which um uh bills are brought in uh
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you know on the floor of the house for
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voting another is an anti-defection law
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a third is the way in which sort of you
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know uh the careers of these MPS are
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controlled by party bosses so on and so
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forth right now the effect of this
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complicated system of politics that we
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have is that the MP that we choose for
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instance in my case I my vote is in
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South Madras and I my mp is uh Dr Tam
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right like it doesn't matter you
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know how much I agree with Dr T right
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like regardless I will always have some
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areas where I disagree with her the
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problem is that her party does not allow
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her to vote on the basis of what her
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constituents say instead her party the
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DMK will ask her to vote a certain way
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and this is true for every party right
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and because the party holds so much
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power there is a inability of the
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individual MP to transmit the will of
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the people if you take that at a state
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level or at a reasonable region level
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what that happens is that there is
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Extreme Distortion of the people's will
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in terms of uh you know transmitting
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that into sort of governance issues and
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and this I believe is at the core of all
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our problems right so simply you know
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seceding or balkanization what it does
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is it it draws a line in the political
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map of a country and it retains all the
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problems which basically means that we
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are kicking can down the road and
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instead of having one problem you're
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going to have two problems or how many
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other you know divisions that you have
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in the country so how do you actually
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solve this problem the way in which I
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propose we solve this problem is by a
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system called gamified direct democracy
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right now uh if you want I can go into
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greater DET yeah yeah definitely
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definitely so what I propose is that you
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know um in conventional sort of you know
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democracy or in in the modern version of
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liberal democracy that we know is a
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system of you know elections which are
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brought over by uh you know political
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parties with elected representatives who
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in turn have a system have a series of
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uh checks and balances right and that
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that's a combination of our system right
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there's government there's Judiciary
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there is the media there there is you
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know the executive and these are
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separated from one another and what what
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you know the power of each is uh sort of
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restricted by the other branch and so on
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and so forth right the problem with this
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however like we have just seen is that
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the executive and the legislature are
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extremely compromised in the ability in
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which they transmit the will of the
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people right so the proposal that I have
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is that you know if we were to achieve
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100% transmission efficiency the obvious
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answer to that is the ancient direct
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democracy that you know the Greeks or
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the ancient Athenians practiced right
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like if we've all read history books
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that the way in which democracy was
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practiced then is that all um eligible
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voters and remember this was ancient
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Athens so it was only uh free men with
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property I guess women and slaves were
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not allowed nor were foreigners so you
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know they had that problems but the
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point is that these men would congregate
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in the Public Square of uh uh you know
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Athens and the issue of the day would be
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raised and everybody gets to vote right
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now forget all the problems that they
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had but at least there was no king or
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lawmaker or anything right like the
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people's will was directly represented
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in the way in which they were governed
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in terms of the decision making
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processes the problem with such a system
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of course is that as we all now know it
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famously tends to become tyrannical in
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that let's say you know and Socrates for
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instance was sentenced to death by
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poison exactly by such a system we don't
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want that right like we can basically
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say I don't like you and so let's hang
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you right and that will become like a
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lot because know the the Constitutional
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system essentially exists to safeguard
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the individual rights against such
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tyranny so the question then becomes how
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do you have a system of direct democracy
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which has perfect transmission
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efficiency but still retain the guard
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rails of a modern liberal democracy that
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is the serious question right so what I
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propose is that we essentially have a
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system where everybody is given a set of
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n votes at the beginning of the year
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what the value of n should be we will
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come to in a little bit but when you are
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given n WS what will happen is that and
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and in this system remember we are
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eliminating the concept of MPS or mlas
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or all of that right we are essentially
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saying something can be like a a set of
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people and how something can be brought
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about in order for the people to vote is
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a different question in itself and we
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will again discuss that later but assume
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that you know these two sort of you know
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and how the legislation is drafted and
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when when it comes to vote all of these
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are significant questions where you know
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there are answers and to to that in the
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system but you know it'll come to that
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later but assume that we've crossed all
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those sort of uh uh matters of detail
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right and essentially it has a piece of
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legislation has come to vote what will
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happen is that there are n votes for
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everybody right and people can vote uh
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if you if you vote a if you vote Yes and
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the legislation passes your n becomes n
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- one you're left with n minus one votes
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right if you vote no and you know the
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legislation passes or fails it doesn't
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matter your n remains n if you vote
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Yes and the legislation fails your vote
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Still Remains n right but the other
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thing is that if you want to vote no you
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can vote with all your remaining votes
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whereas if you want to vote Yes you only
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have one vote so what is system achieves
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is that it makes the veto of the
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minority a distinct characteristic of
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this system so that the minority have an
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ability to veto majoritarian ter right
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that that that's inbuilt in the system
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right and and and and remember we parked
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matters of detail aside so what we will
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also do is the existing Parliament or
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other legislative bodies have an
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important function which is drafting of
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legislation which is what parliamentary
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standing committees do so and there is
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another important function is that of
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party bosses who bring in legislation to
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the floor of the house in terms of their
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legislative calendar both of these will
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basically be sort of divorced from this
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system of NES that I said and what will
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happen is the calendar will be decided
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by a committee which will be chosen by S
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San is a fancy way of saying Lottery
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right like a core committee which will
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be picked uh from you know citizens at
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random completely random like a lottery
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and those uh citizens will essentially
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decide the timetable of legislation
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another sort of uh Core Group which is
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again going to be chosen by stition but
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this time because it's a lawmaking body
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it will have thresholds for instance
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lawyers have to be in a lawmaking body
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similarly policy experts have to be in
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that L board so we will have those base
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thresholds of you satisfy these criteria
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you you get to get into that that
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particular committee but like
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essentially again after you satisfy
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those criterian it will be chosen by
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Lottery right right so you essentially
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have a voting mechanism which we just
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saw a calendar mechanism which we just
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which is a body which we just saw and
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the third is the lawmaking Enterprise
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that we just saw so it's a three-legged
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stool right and this what it will
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achieve is let's consider the problem
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that we currently have in India if you
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look at the budget which is the one that
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Nala you know presented a few months ago
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the problem with that is exactly what we
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discussed earlier which is that there is
00:16:32
Extreme skew towards the priorities of
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North India at the expense of South
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India this system the way in which it
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will solve is that let's say people in
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Tamil Nadu and Kerala if we had such a
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system and Telangana for that matter
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because telana remember is the state
00:16:47
that is affected the most because of uh
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this particular transfer because if you
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take a look at the ra uh uh ratio of
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state's own tax in the overall budget
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versus the central taxes in the overall
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budget telana receives the least support
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from the union government right so
00:17:05
people in telana obviously not going to
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vote for Nala sit's budget if they sort
00:17:10
of can't read the budget right uh now
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what what will happen if people in
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telengana sort of used all their NWS to
00:17:18
sort of veto the budget as we have just
00:17:20
discussed what will happen is that the
00:17:21
budget won't pass but if the if this
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budget doesn't pass what will happen it
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is that the the power and the authority
00:17:29
will naturally get down and down to the
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lowest common denominator which then
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means that both our taxes and our
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expenditure both sides of the coin that
00:17:38
is revenue and expenditure will fall to
00:17:40
the lowest level of government at which
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it is in agreement which basically means
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that it will no longer be at the center
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but it will fall down our tax rates will
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be will go more towards our local
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governments our expenditure will be more
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from the local government instead of our
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money going to utar Pradesh right and
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and what is the degree to which our
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money needs to go to utar Pradesh will
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be a function of what people decide it
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is not as if we are cold-hearted people
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who want children in utar Pradesh to die
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because there is lack of health or you
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know people children in utar Pradesh do
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not attend a school because there are no
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schools we have large-hearted people who
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you know want those children to do well
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but what is the limit of that is the
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actual question that will naturally be
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answered by the system because they will
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be able to decide how much of our money
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do we want to keep for ourselves and how
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much of the money do we want to send
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elsewhere so that is the system thank
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you uh lastly and finally uh there is a
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debate going on in India one isan model
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of development and another one guat
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model of development what is the
00:18:40
difference between Gujarat model and
00:18:43
model um uh so the Gujarat model of
00:18:48
development is essentially one where uh
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you know okay I I I'll give you a
00:18:53
statistic which will explain the
00:18:54
difference right and the dravidan model
00:18:57
for instance is famously sort of you
00:18:59
know put forward by what is the Tran
00:19:02
movement in TAMU right
00:19:05
now if you look at the number of
00:19:07
factories in these two states remember
00:19:09
Gujarat is a relatively wealthy state so
00:19:12
tamad right now if you take these it's
00:19:14
not as if we comparing Tamil Nadu to UT
00:19:16
Pradesh or Gujarat to UT Pradesh these
00:19:17
are relatively both like in terms of GDP
00:19:20
pretty wealthy States now if you look at
00:19:22
the number of factories in Tamil Nadu it
00:19:24
is about 39,000 if you look at the
00:19:26
number of factories in Gujarat it is
00:19:28
about 22,000 yeah but the total
00:19:32
contribution of those factories as a
00:19:35
ratio of the state's gsdp is actually
00:19:37
higher in Gujarat than it is in Tamil
00:19:39
Nadu but the total number of jobs
00:19:42
generated is an order of magnitude more
00:19:45
in Tamil Nadu than it is in Gujarat and
00:19:48
what does this mean it means that
00:19:50
Gujarat has highend factories which are
00:19:53
extremely automated which are owned by
00:19:56
large corporations an example of that
00:19:58
would be a petroleum Factory right
00:20:00
whereas in Tamil Nadu these are small
00:20:02
and medium Enterprises which are run by
00:20:04
Ordinary People right now what is the
00:20:07
effect of this is that because you
00:20:09
employ so much more people in Tamil Nadu
00:20:11
the average daily wage for a worker in
00:20:14
Tamil Nadu is nearly 2x that of
00:20:17
Gujarat now what do you want if you were
00:20:19
an average citizen you want more jobs
00:20:22
yeah you want higher wage for those jobs
00:20:25
if the answer to both these questions is
00:20:26
a yes it is a no-brainer that you wanted
00:20:29
davan
00:20:30
model okay good well explained about the
00:20:34
guat model andavan model so the suddenly
00:20:39
we will invite Nan in coming days also
00:20:43
in other series of the interviews
00:20:45
definitely we will invite next time also
00:20:48
sir for seminar so I thank for this
00:20:52
coming and giving a wonderful
00:20:54
explanation about the south versus North
00:20:56
India's divide and how why why there is
00:20:59
a need South movement so in this context
00:21:03
so finally I want to explain about my
00:21:06
book also you see this is D6 D fora D
00:21:12
six for States voice of global s
00:21:17
actually channel is for made for six
00:21:19
states only but total voice of global
00:21:22
South also we are we are giving why
00:21:24
because Global North soci entire world
00:21:28
is divid in two one is global South and
00:21:30
Global North so Global South people
00:21:33
white racist people rich people
00:21:35
exploited people technologically
00:21:37
exploited people economically
00:21:38
politically what not so Global South
00:21:42
people always you know they they treated
00:21:44
as a black people sessed people
00:21:46
depressed people their economy low their
00:21:48
wages are low and their technological
00:21:51
you know ratio is low so on so because
00:21:54
of the separation and depression and
00:21:56
discrimination by the global people
00:21:58
Global people so that is the reason why
00:22:01
to address this issues I conducted a
00:22:03
global conference on this topic
00:22:06
University so Department of Law in the
00:22:10
2020 so in this book I know I have
00:22:14
written so many issues so many articles
00:22:17
from various parts of India Africa
00:22:20
American Writers also wrote about the
00:22:22
article articles even the UN Secretary
00:22:24
General wrote this four word about this
00:22:28
is the first kind of global conference M
00:22:32
conducted by the Department of Law I am
00:22:34
the head of the department at the time
00:22:37
uh I'm head of the department so I
00:22:39
conducted this and this is one of the
00:22:42
you know durable Solutions we have also
00:22:44
suggested in this the the problems of
00:22:47
total Global South
00:22:49
countries so it is it is related this
00:22:53
book is related to India but this book
00:22:56
is related to Old World so but both are
00:22:59
very much required both are very much
00:23:02
you know very useful books at the global
00:23:05
level and also India level so I really
00:23:08
appreciate your effort about the how
00:23:10
know you wrote about the south versus
00:23:14
North how know how to resolve the crisis
00:23:18
of the South issues and well explained I
00:23:22
you know we definitely we will translate
00:23:25
this book into telu and also release
00:23:27
with your
00:23:29
hands also thank you very much coming
00:23:33
for Basics and explain about the issues
00:23:36
thank you thank you so much and please
00:23:38
uh you just request our people to
00:23:41
subscribe and share our Channel please
00:23:46
do subscribe to D6 because I've had a
00:23:49
lot of fun and it was an enlightening
00:23:50
conversation I hope you enjoyed it as
00:23:52
much as I do thank you thank you
