Harvard Expert on How to Navigate Difficult Conversations | Sheila Heen

00:45:53
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnSVf5HMVUM

Sintesi

TLDRThe discussion centers around effectively managing difficult conversations, particularly in the current politically charged climate of 2024. Sheila Heen, Deputy Director of the Harvard Negotiation Project, highlights how crucial it is to approach these conversations correctly. The conversation underscores that challenges arise not only from differences in opinion, values, or background but also due to identity concerns, emotional reactions, and trust issues. The public discourse is strained due to amplified, often inaccurate perceptions fueled by social media. Heen suggests adopting a framework of understanding over judgment, emphasizing curiosity, and actively engaging in dialogue rather than confrontation. Recognizing shared values and fostering healthy communication can mitigate polarization. Additionally, the evolving narrative of a more pluralistic society poses both challenges and opportunities for deeper engagement and truth-seeking. The conversation concludes on the need for communities to embrace diversity and engage in thoughtful, open conversations to strengthen societal bonds.

Punti di forza

  • 🤝 Approach difficult conversations with the right framework to manage them skillfully.
  • 🗣️ Emphasize understanding and curiosity over judgment.
  • 🌐 Social media can amplify and distort perceptions, affecting dialogue.
  • 📚 Difficult conversations are often not about facts but about trust and interpretation.
  • 👥 National polarization is more perceived than real, with 87% of people in the middle of the spectrum.
  • 🧠 Recognize that identity and emotions influence how we handle conflicts.
  • 🌍 Embrace pluralism as a chance for deeper engagement.
  • 🔄 Shared responsibility and understanding can foster healthier community dialogue.
  • 💬 Free expression and maintaining a conducive learning environment must be balanced on campuses.
  • 🤔 Unpack feelings, identity, and facts to navigate complex issues.

Linea temporale

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Discusses the pervasive anxiety and avoidance surrounding difficult conversations, highlighting how Sheila Heen's book provides a structured approach to manage heated discussions effectively.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Explores why certain individuals navigate difficult conversations more successfully, noting a societal shift fueled by social media's emphasis on extreme narratives leading to 'outrage culture'.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Heen elaborates on the dual nature of social media fostering connection and division, emphasizing the critical role of relationship context in interpreting shared information.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Describes the difficulty in arguing about facts within fragmented media environments, proposing that trust in information sources heavily influences perceived facts rather than the facts themselves.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Introduces the 'ladder of inference' model to explain disparate perceptions and conclusions, underlining the importance of understanding different interpretations before forming final judgments.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Explains the emotional complexities tied to difficult conversations, notably the intertwining of identity perceptions with emotions and how that impacts dialogue.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Discusses the heightened sensitivity and perceived existential threats in identity, noting the mismatch between perceived polarization and actual shared middle-ground stances.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Highlights the division in narrative and information sources, with a call for increased curiosity and understanding amidst diverse perspectives to foster more constructive conversations.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:53

    Reflects on the challenges institutions face in maintaining open dialogues amidst conflicting narratives, suggesting that shared responsibility in communication can bridge understanding.

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Mappa mentale

Video Domande e Risposte

  • Who is Sheila Heen?

    She is the Deputy Director of the Harvard Negotiation Project and co-author of "Difficult Conversations."

  • What is a key factor in managing difficult conversations?

    Approaching conversations with the right framework and focusing on understanding rather than judgment.

  • How has social media impacted difficult conversations?

    Social media often amplifies extreme views, distorting perceptions, and making nuanced dialogue challenging.

  • Are people as polarized as they seem?

    No, most people actually fall in the middle of the political spectrum, but perceive greater polarization due to amplified discourse.

  • What influences how we handle conflicts?

    Underlying identity concerns, emotions, and trust issues significantly shape conflict management.

  • How can communities manage difficult conversations?

    By recognizing shared values, fostering understanding, and encouraging open dialogue.

  • Why are facts often not central in difficult conversations?

    Conversations are more about trust and how information is interpreted than about objective facts.

  • What challenge does pluralism pose in discussions?

    It requires engaging with and understanding a wider array of diverse perspectives and narratives.

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Scorrimento automatico:
  • 00:00:00
    difficult conversations can be fraught
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    with anxiety anger and
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    awkwardness that's why so many of us
  • 00:00:07
    just avoid them alt together especially
  • 00:00:09
    in an election year like
  • 00:00:11
    2024 but our guest today says that with
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    the right framework we can handle even
  • 00:00:17
    the most heated exchanges sheilah Heen
  • 00:00:20
    is the deputy director of the Harvard
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    negotiation project at Harvard Law
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    School and is one of the co-authors of
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    the book difficult conversations how to
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    discuss what matters
  • 00:00:36
    most Sheila welcome thank you so much
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    for having me so Sheila I I must say
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    right at the onset thank you for this
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    book um I have as a pastor used it as a
  • 00:00:50
    framework in marriage counseling uh in
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    leadership of committees and now
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    presently in my work I use it in spaces
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    where difficult conversations uh
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    frequently occur across um profound
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    ideological uh opposition and it has
  • 00:01:12
    proven its worth over and over again
  • 00:01:15
    this is like the user end experience but
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    I want to jump back and and and I want
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    to explore a little bit could you just
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    say a word of why you even wrote the
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    book well I was just um appreciating
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    your your observation about the ways in
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    which difficult
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    conversations are rif common in in every
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    area of human endeavor and I think
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    that's part of what prompted us to write
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    the book um is that part of being
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    human and being in relationship with
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    each other is about how we handle our
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    differences um and those can be
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    differences in uh you know back ground
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    culture and beliefs and um
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    values and opinions you know are we
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    going to paint the house yellow or are
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    we going to paint the house blue so it
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    from the most mundane to the most
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    fundamental um part of the challenge and
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    the opportunity I think for growth for
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    each of us as human beings um and
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    spiritually is in interacting in that
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    space between
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    us so it's a human reality and of course
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    in the various spheres that you've just
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    described and perennially we're going to
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    be coming back to it um but surely there
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    are times where people do this better
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    and worse and what have you noticed I
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    mean this book has been out since what
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    1999 early form years 25 years and we've
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    got it all figured out don't you think
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    exactly um just from your your Vantage
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    Point have have people gotten better
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    gotten worse is it is it different over
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    the course of the 25 years um yes yes
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    and yes people have gotten better people
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    have got worse and um it is different
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    and and I think so maybe to address each
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    of those I think I have seen myself and
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    I've seen the students and leaders and
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    um humans that I alongside um or with
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    really change the quality of the
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    conversations that they're having um and
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    really grow
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    into um better Leaders with
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    more openness and more confidence which
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    means less anxiety about tackling the
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    conversations that matter most and
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    that's incredibly rewarding to
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    see um have we gotten worse well yes
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    partly because everybody on Earth has
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    been handed a
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    megaphone where we can shout into the
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    void where we're not really in true
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    relationship with each other although
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    we're part of a global
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    community and um and that's not a great
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    place to have nuanced actual dialogue
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    and so it's
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    disconnected sometimes shouting
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    monologue um in ways that can raise the
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    temperature
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    you know and then of course what gets
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    reposted retweeted Etc are the things
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    that um are sometimes described as outr
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    outrage culture um the more extreme you
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    are the more likely someone will retweet
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    it either because they're saying yeah
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    exactly or they're saying can you
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    believe this it's ridiculous so I think
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    that that public I'm going to put it in
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    quotes
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    discourse has actually raised the
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    temperature and introduced
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    stress um that I think wasn't there in
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    the same way before so in that way also
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    it is
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    different yeah so there's so much
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    promise in social media ways in which
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    people you know reconnected with high
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    school friends or during the pandemic
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    were able to stay together as a pastor
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    I've witnessed ways in which um elderly
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    or those who are unable to attend church
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    just regularly not even in a pandemic
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    all of a sudden in the pandemic
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    discovered that their church has got
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    really good at giving them access so
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    it's so promising on the one side but
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    what you're describing is that promise
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    comes with some Peril right that that we
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    we're connected in one way but that's
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    not really the same thing as
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    relationships dra draw that out what
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    what are the implications of that yeah
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    well I appreciate you reminding me um of
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    the ways in which social media can be a
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    tool a Channel of communication that
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    actually can help connect and reconnect
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    us um in genuine Community relationship
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    so as long as there is relationship
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    sitting alongside well then it's just a
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    channel through which whether it's
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    picking up the phone or tuning into the
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    service
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    um that's been true for a long time and
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    this is just the latest form of
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    it and maybe it's
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    when it is disconnected from human
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    relationship that's more
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    multifaceted um where it starts to have
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    some corrosive effects you know the
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    algorithms also mean and the the
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    splitting of the news media also mean
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    that we have very different sources of
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    information so one of the things that we
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    often say is that difficult
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    conversations are rarely about
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    facts they're usually
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    about what we have access to in terms of
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    information or how we interpret it or
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    what judgments we make um about it or
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    what values that might be different um
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    in terms of how we understand those but
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    that leads people to say well okay but
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    what about alternative facts um what
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    about when we are arguing about the
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    facts and in that case I would say I'm
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    not sure we're arguing about the facts I
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    think we're arguing about who we trust H
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    um in terms of relying on the facts that
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    we're getting and that's become more
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    splintered in the current U media
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    landscape as
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    well so the sources of trusted
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    information what we would say is trusted
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    information is become fragmented I mean
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    yeah we we no longer live in a world
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    where there are three basic Networks
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    uh and we all trust that I in fact I I
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    myself am a product of that I'm named
  • 00:08:04
    Walter in part because when my parents
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    immigrated to this country Walter
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    kronite was on the news and they just
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    immediately assumed here's the trusted
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    voice in America I've just dated myself
  • 00:08:18
    there people
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    that exactly what you're talking about
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    exactly right um but it was because
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    there is this like National figure that
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    everyone got news from um but that's not
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    the case right now like it's just
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    fragmented that's not the case right now
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    and and also let's not be facil in
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    suggesting that in the good old days um
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    of all of us trusting Walter and his
  • 00:08:45
    colleagues who were hyms as well that
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    that there there weren't huge swats of
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    of news and important information about
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    people in this country that were left
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    out right and and they were all
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    interpreting the news
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    in their own particular way through
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    their own particular lens um so so the
  • 00:09:06
    downside is that we got less information
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    the upside was that we trusted that
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    information so at least if we were
  • 00:09:12
    disagreeing about what was on the news
  • 00:09:14
    we were both talking about the same
  • 00:09:15
    thing so it's mixed it's I think it's
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    mixed so u i I want to draw that out
  • 00:09:22
    just because I know some of your work
  • 00:09:24
    you know you use this imagery of laders
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    of inference um to talk about fact so
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    you've already kind of started us down
  • 00:09:31
    that uh Road of thinking about well
  • 00:09:34
    there are facts then you have to think
  • 00:09:36
    about the sources of the facts but what
  • 00:09:38
    what is this ladder of inference like we
  • 00:09:40
    we can't just think about facts as
  • 00:09:43
    Standalone obvious shared things anymore
  • 00:09:47
    yeah that's right so the latter of
  • 00:09:49
    inference um was created as a
  • 00:09:52
    collaboration between uh Harvard
  • 00:09:56
    Business School a colleague named Chris
  • 00:09:58
    Aris and John shine at MIT and it was it
  • 00:10:01
    was just a way to map the way that our
  • 00:10:04
    brains take in and process information
  • 00:10:06
    so if we use a simplified version of it
  • 00:10:09
    in the difficult conversations world at
  • 00:10:12
    the bottom of the lad if you're
  • 00:10:13
    picturing that ladder the lad sort of
  • 00:10:15
    stands in a a pool of available
  • 00:10:18
    information available data so anything
  • 00:10:21
    you can directly observe see smell touch
  • 00:10:23
    feel
  • 00:10:24
    here um and in any moment in our lives
  • 00:10:28
    that pool is sort of infinitely large
  • 00:10:31
    and there's way too much information
  • 00:10:33
    than we can take in and so on the first
  • 00:10:36
    rung up on that ladder we um select what
  • 00:10:41
    we assume is important to pay attention
  • 00:10:43
    to and that's a tiny fraction um of
  • 00:10:47
    what's available to us we're not even
  • 00:10:50
    it's not even a conscious selection
  • 00:10:52
    right in any meeting I'm automatically
  • 00:10:55
    paying attention to you know what's
  • 00:10:57
    what's going to reflect on me or land on
  • 00:10:59
    my plate or ruin my weekend um I don't
  • 00:11:02
    I'm not paying as close attention to
  • 00:11:03
    what's going to ruin your weekend Walter
  • 00:11:05
    as much as I like you and and hope hope
  • 00:11:08
    for the best weekend you can have um so
  • 00:11:11
    so we're we're paying attention to the
  • 00:11:12
    things that we're interested in that we
  • 00:11:14
    have background in that are relevant to
  • 00:11:16
    us so that's the selection rung the next
  • 00:11:19
    rung up is then whatever it is that we
  • 00:11:22
    notice and select we then interpret
  • 00:11:25
    based on both logic and also past
  • 00:11:27
    experience what do I make of this how do
  • 00:11:29
    I interpret it what do I predict about
  • 00:11:31
    it based on my past experience with
  • 00:11:33
    similar situations and then at the top
  • 00:11:35
    of the ladder we come to a
  • 00:11:37
    conclusion now it's not unusual then if
  • 00:11:39
    you and I disagree about something we
  • 00:11:43
    we're trading conclusions you know I
  • 00:11:45
    might say that's the best meeting we've
  • 00:11:46
    had all quarter and you say that was a
  • 00:11:49
    total waste of
  • 00:11:50
    time just better understanding why we
  • 00:11:55
    came to such opposite conclusions means
  • 00:11:59
    just getting curious about really like
  • 00:12:02
    what did you notice in that meeting or
  • 00:12:03
    what what were you hoping it would
  • 00:12:05
    accomplish that led you to interpret
  • 00:12:07
    what did happen as not worthwhile
  • 00:12:10
    because I I'll share with you what I
  • 00:12:11
    noticed and what I was glad we talked
  • 00:12:14
    about and why that changed my prediction
  • 00:12:17
    about what I think we should do next and
  • 00:12:19
    so we're going up and down each other's
  • 00:12:21
    ladders to better understand and that's
  • 00:12:24
    not our instinct when we learn that we
  • 00:12:26
    see something differently than someone
  • 00:12:28
    else can often create
  • 00:12:31
    anxiety um and it can create a situation
  • 00:12:34
    where we just argue trading conclusions
  • 00:12:37
    I think that I thought that was a great
  • 00:12:38
    meeting you know I think you should have
  • 00:12:40
    been paying better attention you know
  • 00:12:42
    and you say well you you're just not
  • 00:12:43
    paying attention to what's important and
  • 00:12:45
    we walk away feeling like the other
  • 00:12:47
    person doesn't quote unquote get it
  • 00:12:49
    rather than being curious about what we
  • 00:12:51
    each got and what we made of
  • 00:12:55
    it it seems like you've just given us a
  • 00:12:58
    framework that promised a solution and
  • 00:13:02
    then you're telling us oh but it doesn't
  • 00:13:04
    always work out that way so it's not
  • 00:13:06
    enough just to have ladders of
  • 00:13:07
    inferences let's get them both out let's
  • 00:13:10
    describe them let's understand you
  • 00:13:13
    you've alluded to where's like anxiety
  • 00:13:17
    yeah and feeling so what else is going
  • 00:13:19
    on in in difficult conversations yeah
  • 00:13:22
    well so I think partly because difficult
  • 00:13:25
    conversations and and conflict
  • 00:13:28
    particularly in important relationships
  • 00:13:30
    feels stressful to us and it feels very
  • 00:13:34
    uncertain because I'm worried about your
  • 00:13:37
    reaction I'm worried about hurting the
  • 00:13:39
    relationship um I'm worried about
  • 00:13:41
    whether you'll see all the things that
  • 00:13:44
    I'm right about um in order to manage
  • 00:13:48
    that anxiety part part of what I do is I
  • 00:13:51
    focus on the certainty of what I'm
  • 00:13:52
    pretty sure I am right
  • 00:13:55
    about um and then underneath that I'm
  • 00:13:58
    trying to figure out what to do with my
  • 00:14:00
    feelings because I'm feeling frustrated
  • 00:14:02
    with you I'm feeling confused about why
  • 00:14:04
    you would say that I'm feeling a little
  • 00:14:06
    bit guilty because I wish I would have
  • 00:14:08
    checked in with you before the meeting
  • 00:14:10
    and I know I probably should have done
  • 00:14:12
    that sometimes so often we're carrying a
  • 00:14:15
    whole bundle of feelings and reactions
  • 00:14:18
    um but in depending on the context we
  • 00:14:21
    may not feel like we're supposed to be
  • 00:14:23
    sharing those feelings and why get in
  • 00:14:25
    why open that can of worms right it's
  • 00:14:27
    not going to help
  • 00:14:29
    there's also a deepest level um
  • 00:14:32
    underneath that where if something feels
  • 00:14:35
    like a difficult conversation chances
  • 00:14:37
    are there's something the situation
  • 00:14:39
    suggests about us that feels at
  • 00:14:42
    stake am I competent or incompetent am I
  • 00:14:45
    a good leader or not a good leader um am
  • 00:14:48
    I
  • 00:14:49
    trusted or I'm not necessarily
  • 00:14:52
    trusted um and so if a conversation
  • 00:14:55
    feels difficult sometimes there's some
  • 00:14:57
    identity hook that has been tripped that
  • 00:15:01
    then amplifies my feelings and then my
  • 00:15:03
    feelings color the story I'm telling
  • 00:15:05
    about what is going on and Lead me
  • 00:15:08
    rather than being curious to cling to
  • 00:15:10
    what feels more certain to
  • 00:15:13
    me all right you've given us this
  • 00:15:16
    fact Dimension to a difficult
  • 00:15:19
    conversation the feeling Dimension this
  • 00:15:21
    last one I want to explore some more
  • 00:15:23
    because it seems like in many ways that
  • 00:15:25
    that's the rub right now that people's
  • 00:15:27
    sense of identity sense of wor sense of
  • 00:15:29
    place sense of self it's all threatened
  • 00:15:32
    um and it feels to be threatened by
  • 00:15:36
    either uh an unnamed you know opponent
  • 00:15:40
    out there or someone sitting at the
  • 00:15:42
    Thanksgiving table saying something that
  • 00:15:45
    all of a sudden is producing all these
  • 00:15:47
    emotions um oh yeah so wh why is it that
  • 00:15:52
    this identity
  • 00:15:54
    issue feels so threatened nowadays
  • 00:15:59
    yeah you know you're making me think
  • 00:16:01
    that maybe part of what's going on is
  • 00:16:03
    that we're having a national identity
  • 00:16:06
    trigger right because what's interesting
  • 00:16:09
    is that I I think there are few people
  • 00:16:11
    who would disagree with the sense that
  • 00:16:15
    we are more polarized than we have been
  • 00:16:18
    in a very very long
  • 00:16:19
    time um certainly in my memory and as
  • 00:16:24
    you and I know our memories go back at
  • 00:16:25
    least a little
  • 00:16:27
    ways um and so it feels more
  • 00:16:32
    polarized and what's interesting is that
  • 00:16:35
    we're not actually what the studies
  • 00:16:37
    shows that we're not as polarized as we
  • 00:16:39
    think that we are nationally that about
  • 00:16:42
    133% of the population actually sits at
  • 00:16:45
    one or the other poll split between the
  • 00:16:47
    two in terms of their
  • 00:16:49
    views 87% of us sit in the middle
  • 00:16:53
    depending on the issue and and change
  • 00:16:56
    our minds or or are mixed in our views
  • 00:17:01
    but what is true is that affective
  • 00:17:03
    polarization has gone up in other words
  • 00:17:06
    our feelings about the quote unquote
  • 00:17:08
    other I think probably exacerbated by um
  • 00:17:13
    statements that are
  • 00:17:15
    overstatements right that are more
  • 00:17:17
    extreme that feel like oh they're coming
  • 00:17:20
    from a big
  • 00:17:22
    population when in fact it's a tiny
  • 00:17:25
    population at the at each end that may
  • 00:17:28
    be feeding it or by the way of course
  • 00:17:31
    outside actors right because they're not
  • 00:17:33
    necessarily humans on the end of those
  • 00:17:37
    tweets and Facebook posts
  • 00:17:39
    Etc um and so the other the last thing I
  • 00:17:43
    think that I've learned recently that
  • 00:17:46
    has been
  • 00:17:48
    fascinating a little worrisome of is
  • 00:17:52
    that if you look at what the other side
  • 00:17:55
    believes
  • 00:17:59
    um our sense of what the other side
  • 00:18:01
    whichever side you're on the other side
  • 00:18:03
    believes is not particularly
  • 00:18:05
    accurate and in fact the people who are
  • 00:18:08
    most politically
  • 00:18:10
    active have the least accurate
  • 00:18:13
    descriptions of what the other side
  • 00:18:14
    thinks so we should at least dis like
  • 00:18:16
    each other for what we actually believe
  • 00:18:18
    rather than what we imagine that they
  • 00:18:21
    believe and the people who actually have
  • 00:18:23
    the most accurate description of what
  • 00:18:26
    sides believe are the people who are
  • 00:18:28
    least Poli Al engaged maybe because
  • 00:18:30
    they're in that sort of Observer status
  • 00:18:34
    which is more
  • 00:18:35
    clearheaded um and more balanced I don't
  • 00:18:38
    know what do you think Walter you know
  • 00:18:41
    Sheila that that's a
  • 00:18:43
    fascinating uh
  • 00:18:45
    observation um and I think there is
  • 00:18:48
    something
  • 00:18:50
    about uh the benefits if you're on this
  • 00:18:54
    extreme side of things uh whether it's
  • 00:18:58
    to maintain your followers on social
  • 00:19:02
    media uh to recognize that the
  • 00:19:05
    forcefulness and the clarity and the
  • 00:19:07
    narrowness I would argue of your
  • 00:19:09
    position um allows you to Mark out
  • 00:19:12
    terrain uh as a voice to that actually
  • 00:19:15
    stands for something and ironically
  • 00:19:18
    there is this sense of lostness right
  • 00:19:23
    now cultural lostness lostness of
  • 00:19:25
    dominant World Views whether you call it
  • 00:19:27
    postmodernity
  • 00:19:29
    or just the increasing
  • 00:19:31
    pluralism so I would add another Dynamic
  • 00:19:33
    and say there's an anxiety because there
  • 00:19:36
    isn't this shared
  • 00:19:38
    narrative and if someone promises like a
  • 00:19:41
    pi Piper I can tell you the narrative
  • 00:19:44
    that you should believe even if
  • 00:19:46
    internally we want to say yeah but that
  • 00:19:49
    seems awfully mean or that's awfully
  • 00:19:53
    narrow it is Le at least an an offer of
  • 00:19:59
    a view of the world that is trying to
  • 00:20:01
    make sense of it so it strikes me that
  • 00:20:03
    there are some tensions that are going
  • 00:20:05
    on I I don't know if you you see that
  • 00:20:07
    working itself out in your own
  • 00:20:09
    experiences and college campuses and but
  • 00:20:13
    it does seem to me that there there is
  • 00:20:15
    this moment that's very
  • 00:20:18
    ambiguous with the loss of dominating
  • 00:20:21
    cultural narratives like how do we even
  • 00:20:24
    understand our own history is it 1776 or
  • 00:20:27
    1619 should describe or you like yeah
  • 00:20:30
    there's a lot up in the air and someone
  • 00:20:32
    that could come and say no it's this
  • 00:20:35
    right or that like it promises something
  • 00:20:38
    but what you're saying and I find really
  • 00:20:40
    intriguing is that the vast the 87% of
  • 00:20:44
    the people actually don't feel that way
  • 00:20:48
    find that somewhat unsettling as an
  • 00:20:52
    observer and yet somehow those voices
  • 00:20:56
    that 87 is not able to
  • 00:21:00
    contest and quell the
  • 00:21:04
    133% so I don't know that that was my
  • 00:21:07
    reflection but I turned that back to an
  • 00:21:09
    OB question for you of like what if it's
  • 00:21:11
    the 87% then why why just out of the
  • 00:21:15
    sheer
  • 00:21:16
    numbers hasn't that been able to quell
  • 00:21:19
    the
  • 00:21:20
    133% yeah well so um so there's so much
  • 00:21:25
    packed into what you just reflected on
  • 00:21:28
    which is
  • 00:21:30
    amazing one thing that strikes me is
  • 00:21:32
    that in times of uncertainty and in
  • 00:21:34
    Conflict the narratives being offered
  • 00:21:37
    that are simpler that we can all buy
  • 00:21:39
    into or at least some of us can buy into
  • 00:21:41
    feel
  • 00:21:42
    reassuring even if
  • 00:21:46
    they we know they're a little extreme
  • 00:21:48
    you know or whatever right a little
  • 00:21:50
    simplistic and and what one of the
  • 00:21:53
    patterns for we flawed human beings um
  • 00:21:57
    is that that Triad a villain victim hero
  • 00:22:02
    is a very appealing Triad when we're in
  • 00:22:05
    conflict and so conflict stories tend to
  • 00:22:10
    map onto well who's the problem who's
  • 00:22:12
    the villain who's the victim and who's
  • 00:22:15
    going to be the hero here and if you
  • 00:22:18
    listen to the narratives that are being
  • 00:22:20
    offered um they often follow that
  • 00:22:23
    pattern whether whether it's in our
  • 00:22:24
    interpersonal conflict right with the
  • 00:22:27
    neighbor down the street or
  • 00:22:29
    um or the
  • 00:22:30
    national discourse um or Stories being
  • 00:22:35
    offered the other thing that um you're
  • 00:22:38
    making me think about in that 87% versus
  • 00:22:42
    133% is
  • 00:22:45
    that if I look around my
  • 00:22:48
    neighborhood if I look around my
  • 00:22:51
    congregation and my friends I feel like
  • 00:22:55
    we actually have a lot of shared values
  • 00:22:59
    and
  • 00:23:00
    shared
  • 00:23:02
    care um and however we
  • 00:23:06
    vote we care a lot about the same things
  • 00:23:09
    and the health of our
  • 00:23:12
    community so on an individual
  • 00:23:15
    level I think I hope it feels more
  • 00:23:19
    reassuring but the national narrative
  • 00:23:23
    has been hijacked right to be more um um
  • 00:23:30
    fractured and I'm not I'm not glossing
  • 00:23:32
    over the fact that we are voting in
  • 00:23:34
    different ways um but I don't know that
  • 00:23:38
    anybody is happy with the
  • 00:23:40
    choices if we you might get a more than
  • 00:23:43
    87% saying they're not totally happy
  • 00:23:45
    with the choices I don't know um so yeah
  • 00:23:50
    I don't know what your sense of looking
  • 00:23:52
    around the
  • 00:23:54
    room whatever room we're in whether it
  • 00:23:57
    feels us fractured
  • 00:23:59
    I I think Sheila you you made a really
  • 00:24:02
    interesting observation that
  • 00:24:05
    individually when we humanize when we
  • 00:24:07
    enter into the complexity of each
  • 00:24:09
    other's Story We recognize we have a lot
  • 00:24:13
    to share a lot to share with one another
  • 00:24:17
    and I think of all the stories in
  • 00:24:19
    scripture in which Jesus is interacting
  • 00:24:21
    personally with someone whether it's you
  • 00:24:24
    know this uh a woman uh sitting at a
  • 00:24:28
    well from a different ethnic group
  • 00:24:30
    there's that personal interaction that
  • 00:24:33
    diffuses uh all the defense mechanisms
  • 00:24:36
    of this woman toward this you know
  • 00:24:39
    person that's a stranger that seems
  • 00:24:41
    threatening I I get that on the
  • 00:24:43
    interpersonal level um H how do we do
  • 00:24:48
    this and I've seen that happen like I
  • 00:24:50
    said you know in marriage counseling a
  • 00:24:52
    pastoral counseling that I've done um
  • 00:24:56
    I've seen couples work through issues on
  • 00:24:58
    a personal level what seems more
  • 00:25:01
    complicated is when you're doing this on
  • 00:25:04
    community levels on on the level of
  • 00:25:07
    groups of people where you have multiple
  • 00:25:11
    stories that you know it's just frankly
  • 00:25:13
    not going to be possible to hear every
  • 00:25:15
    single person's story and be friends
  • 00:25:18
    that's the part where I wonder does does
  • 00:25:21
    the difficult conversation template work
  • 00:25:25
    in
  • 00:25:27
    that
  • 00:25:28
    larger uh more Amorphis setting and if
  • 00:25:32
    if it does work and I hope it does which
  • 00:25:35
    is why I'm having you on this
  • 00:25:36
    conversation um if it does work then
  • 00:25:40
    what what are some of the keys to like
  • 00:25:43
    make sure that it can translate into
  • 00:25:46
    other
  • 00:25:48
    settings yeah so so really a first
  • 00:25:51
    question to ask is if we're going to
  • 00:25:54
    have a conversation we're going to
  • 00:25:56
    convene some people
  • 00:25:59
    what is our
  • 00:26:00
    purpose and there are different purposes
  • 00:26:03
    that would then lead you to have
  • 00:26:04
    different
  • 00:26:06
    approaches often whether it's oneon-one
  • 00:26:10
    um in a bump into someone you know at
  • 00:26:13
    the Super Market conversation or even
  • 00:26:18
    convening a meeting we don't think very
  • 00:26:20
    clearly about our purposes and our
  • 00:26:22
    default purpose tends to be to try to
  • 00:26:24
    persuade to Advocate to get them to
  • 00:26:27
    agree with our conclusion MH because
  • 00:26:30
    we're pretty sure that our conclusion is
  • 00:26:32
    right and what we believe this is really
  • 00:26:34
    about is what it should be really about
  • 00:26:38
    to
  • 00:26:39
    everybody but if you take any
  • 00:26:41
    individual
  • 00:26:44
    issue 10 different people would probably
  • 00:26:46
    have 12 different things that they think
  • 00:26:48
    it's really
  • 00:26:49
    about um you know is this about the
  • 00:26:52
    fairness of the process so far is this
  • 00:26:54
    about whether or not um the land can
  • 00:26:58
    have that much development on it is this
  • 00:27:00
    about the impact on traffic on certain
  • 00:27:02
    communities and not other communities is
  • 00:27:04
    this about the history of how the city
  • 00:27:06
    makes these decisions you know that we
  • 00:27:09
    could we could name 12 different things
  • 00:27:10
    that any particular even local issue
  • 00:27:14
    might be about and if my purpose is to
  • 00:27:17
    persuade you that I'm right we're going
  • 00:27:20
    to set ourselves up to butt
  • 00:27:23
    heads which is not to say that advocacy
  • 00:27:26
    doesn't have a place to flesh out the
  • 00:27:29
    arguments on different sides but we
  • 00:27:31
    often think that there are only two
  • 00:27:33
    sides when you probably need to hear
  • 00:27:36
    what else is it about if there are 10 or
  • 00:27:38
    12 things that people are worried
  • 00:27:41
    about a second purpose would just be
  • 00:27:43
    exploration can we better understand
  • 00:27:46
    what we each think and what we each are
  • 00:27:48
    worried
  • 00:27:49
    about um sometimes I listen to the the
  • 00:27:52
    parties in our two-party system and I
  • 00:27:55
    think we've just divvied up
  • 00:27:57
    responsibility for worrying about the
  • 00:27:58
    different things that we all need to
  • 00:28:00
    worry about as a
  • 00:28:02
    democracy we need to worry about
  • 00:28:04
    individual rights and protecting
  • 00:28:07
    individual rights we need to worry about
  • 00:28:09
    where where does decision- making lie in
  • 00:28:12
    a federalist system you know what do
  • 00:28:14
    individuals get to decide for themselves
  • 00:28:16
    what does a town get to decide and need
  • 00:28:18
    to fund what does a state and a and what
  • 00:28:20
    should the federal government be
  • 00:28:22
    overseeing or not overseeing those are
  • 00:28:25
    really important questions that we need
  • 00:28:27
    to continually keep an eye on and one
  • 00:28:29
    party has taken primary responsibility
  • 00:28:31
    for that in the rhetoric
  • 00:28:35
    anyway the other party has said like
  • 00:28:38
    okay but in a democracy you can't just
  • 00:28:39
    have the majority rule you also have to
  • 00:28:42
    worry about the minority voices that are
  • 00:28:45
    left out um and those who don't have a
  • 00:28:48
    voice and we Absolut that is also true
  • 00:28:52
    we absolutely have to worry about that
  • 00:28:54
    but each side can say well because
  • 00:28:56
    you're worried about it I don't have to
  • 00:28:58
    worry about it so much which leads me
  • 00:29:01
    back around
  • 00:29:02
    to good questions to ask each other and
  • 00:29:05
    and I have found on any individual issue
  • 00:29:08
    just asking somebody help me understand
  • 00:29:10
    what you're worried about if this goes
  • 00:29:12
    the other way or what is it that you're
  • 00:29:14
    protecting or you feel risks being
  • 00:29:17
    unprotected and that can be a really um
  • 00:29:20
    more fruitful conversation not because
  • 00:29:22
    we have to agree at the end but because
  • 00:29:24
    our bet I'll better understand why you
  • 00:29:26
    feel so strongly about it
  • 00:29:29
    what then is the place of a strongly
  • 00:29:32
    held
  • 00:29:34
    conviction that in the end you're you
  • 00:29:37
    know there are Eternal consequences to
  • 00:29:39
    this issue
  • 00:29:41
    or I I I truly believe um that in the
  • 00:29:46
    end
  • 00:29:48
    this life begins
  • 00:29:50
    here or it doesn't uh the ends of the
  • 00:29:55
    responsibilities of what the states can
  • 00:29:57
    or can't do
  • 00:29:58
    the line must be drawn here at some
  • 00:30:00
    point the
  • 00:30:03
    exploration needs to lead to some kind
  • 00:30:05
    of
  • 00:30:06
    decision and that decision is going to
  • 00:30:10
    please some and not please others um
  • 00:30:12
    that decision seems Frau with the sense
  • 00:30:15
    of circling back to your kind of
  • 00:30:17
    framework of facts feelings and identity
  • 00:30:20
    that decision seems to come
  • 00:30:22
    back and um challenge my sense of
  • 00:30:25
    identity that I have been a coward for
  • 00:30:28
    not fighting for my convictions more or
  • 00:30:31
    I've been a compromiser for permitting
  • 00:30:33
    those convictions to
  • 00:30:35
    change uh or even worse I've become
  • 00:30:40
    complicit uh you can see I'm an
  • 00:30:41
    Evangelical because I'm making
  • 00:30:43
    everything illiterate here
  • 00:30:46
    um indeed so how do you how do you
  • 00:30:51
    balance that in the end there really are
  • 00:30:55
    some issues for which there are perish
  • 00:30:58
    convictions that are root in your
  • 00:31:01
    identity but you still have to navigate
  • 00:31:03
    life in a world where people don't have
  • 00:31:06
    those same
  • 00:31:10
    convictions part of what you're making
  • 00:31:12
    me think
  • 00:31:14
    about is another time when our view of
  • 00:31:19
    the
  • 00:31:20
    world as human as a human race um and
  • 00:31:24
    particularly people of Faith felt very
  • 00:31:26
    threatened
  • 00:31:28
    and it reminds me of um when it started
  • 00:31:32
    to
  • 00:31:33
    be apparent um that it was not that
  • 00:31:38
    everything revolved around the earth it
  • 00:31:40
    was that we were revolving around the
  • 00:31:41
    Sun and that was really disruptive in
  • 00:31:44
    terms of who we are and whether we are
  • 00:31:46
    at the center of the universe right um
  • 00:31:50
    and some people paid the price for
  • 00:31:52
    suggesting that the conviction that
  • 00:31:54
    everybody had at the time was maybe not
  • 00:31:57
    as aligned with Understanding God's
  • 00:31:59
    creation and
  • 00:32:00
    reality and so part of what you made me
  • 00:32:04
    think about when you were describing do
  • 00:32:06
    we have a unified narrative as a
  • 00:32:10
    nation is
  • 00:32:13
    that Walter
  • 00:32:15
    kronite uh and
  • 00:32:18
    our Network colleagues did provide a
  • 00:32:21
    unified story but it wasn't the
  • 00:32:24
    pluralistic reality that is
  • 00:32:30
    America and so we're our narrative is is
  • 00:32:34
    in transition right now to be closer I
  • 00:32:37
    think to reality and we're grappling
  • 00:32:40
    with that um but it that maybe leaves me
  • 00:32:44
    back to thinking it's it's important to
  • 00:32:47
    have things that we feel strongly about
  • 00:32:50
    and that we value and that we're
  • 00:32:53
    seeking and at the end of the day what
  • 00:32:55
    we're seeking is more truth
  • 00:32:58
    to align our understanding closer to
  • 00:33:01
    truth and so our convictions actually
  • 00:33:03
    should always be open to slight revision
  • 00:33:09
    or well maybe there's something I hadn't
  • 00:33:11
    considered here that I just need to
  • 00:33:13
    factor
  • 00:33:14
    in um whether that's as an individual or
  • 00:33:18
    as a community so you're we'll come back
  • 00:33:22
    to eventually decisions have to be made
  • 00:33:25
    right what are we going to do we have to
  • 00:33:27
    we have to update our policy about X Y
  • 00:33:30
    or Z and we can't make everybody
  • 00:33:33
    happy
  • 00:33:35
    um but the question of did I feel heard
  • 00:33:38
    and do I understand the reasoning behind
  • 00:33:41
    the decision even if I don't agree with
  • 00:33:44
    it um I understand why we needed to do
  • 00:33:47
    it and I understand my own freedom to
  • 00:33:50
    live alongside
  • 00:33:52
    it or not right um in terms of sort of
  • 00:33:58
    where in what way does that decision
  • 00:34:00
    impact me as an
  • 00:34:03
    individual yeah so I know that in
  • 00:34:06
    context whether it's your church or in
  • 00:34:09
    my case the academy
  • 00:34:11
    um we have these deep
  • 00:34:15
    aspirations uh you know from my vantage
  • 00:34:18
    point as a Christian to love our
  • 00:34:19
    neighbor to love God to fulfill the
  • 00:34:22
    mission of Jesus in this world uh to
  • 00:34:25
    recognize that we're all part of a body
  • 00:34:27
    each one has uh an a vital role uh the
  • 00:34:31
    Commandments quick to listen slow to
  • 00:34:33
    speak slow to anger I mean it's all
  • 00:34:35
    there and yet during the pandemic
  • 00:34:38
    whether it was the issue of George Floyd
  • 00:34:39
    or vaccination or closing down uh and
  • 00:34:43
    the
  • 00:34:43
    prioritization of issues you've already
  • 00:34:46
    referred to you know what what uh you
  • 00:34:49
    know we have these range of issues at
  • 00:34:51
    the Nae that we seek to address ranging
  • 00:34:53
    from you know pro-life ethic that's
  • 00:34:56
    comprehensive creation care racial
  • 00:34:59
    Justice religious freedom uh what I've
  • 00:35:02
    noticed that people prioritize them
  • 00:35:04
    differently they may Ascent to say oh
  • 00:35:06
    all these are important we agree this is
  • 00:35:07
    a comprehensive application of the good
  • 00:35:09
    news of Jesus Christ in society held
  • 00:35:12
    with Charity until we actually have to
  • 00:35:15
    prioritize which one we should start
  • 00:35:17
    working on first right and so despite
  • 00:35:19
    all the commands uh it's awfully
  • 00:35:23
    difficult and we've seen that in in real
  • 00:35:26
    life I would venture to say
  • 00:35:28
    I like many in the country have been
  • 00:35:30
    witnessing what has happened at
  • 00:35:33
    universities uh you know whether it's
  • 00:35:37
    the Ivy Leagues or state schools in
  • 00:35:38
    which debates have been
  • 00:35:41
    roaling despite a long history of
  • 00:35:44
    universities being committed to the
  • 00:35:47
    exploration of curiosity you know
  • 00:35:50
    Exploration with curiosity openness to
  • 00:35:52
    truth wherever it may lead us uh the
  • 00:35:55
    marketplace of ideas all of that so
  • 00:35:58
    explain a bit more in some of these
  • 00:36:01
    actual lived experiences whether you're
  • 00:36:04
    observing the church or the university
  • 00:36:05
    maybe you have something specific to say
  • 00:36:07
    about your own University context we've
  • 00:36:09
    got all figured out you notic that
  • 00:36:12
    exactly exactly yeah um why is it that
  • 00:36:16
    people fail to live up to the
  • 00:36:21
    aspirations that govern them they
  • 00:36:25
    articulate preach or teach in the
  • 00:36:27
    classroom right in you know educational
  • 00:36:31
    constitutions or uh vision statements in
  • 00:36:35
    our churches I mean why is it that we
  • 00:36:37
    don't live up to
  • 00:36:39
    this
  • 00:36:41
    um I think because the this often
  • 00:36:44
    involves a a
  • 00:36:47
    duality or a tension that has
  • 00:36:53
    Noble values on each
  • 00:36:55
    side so for instance um part of what I
  • 00:37:00
    think is going on on campuses right now
  • 00:37:03
    is that there are
  • 00:37:05
    two values um that are both at the heart
  • 00:37:11
    of being a a learning community and one
  • 00:37:16
    is free expression and curiosity and
  • 00:37:19
    learning um and and saying what feels
  • 00:37:23
    important to
  • 00:37:24
    you and the other one is protecting a
  • 00:37:27
    learning environment for all and right
  • 00:37:31
    now those two are sitting in particular
  • 00:37:33
    tension because For the First Time In My
  • 00:37:36
    Memory we have activism about really
  • 00:37:40
    genuinely important issues going on life
  • 00:37:44
    and death
  • 00:37:45
    issues and um that particularly when
  • 00:37:49
    it's making extreme slogans and
  • 00:37:52
    statements has a population a
  • 00:37:54
    significant population on all of those
  • 00:37:56
    campuses also who feel directly impacted
  • 00:38:00
    and threatened and that was not true you
  • 00:38:03
    know if you're talking about
  • 00:38:05
    unionization or you're talking about you
  • 00:38:08
    know anti-apartheid back in my day it
  • 00:38:11
    wasn't like we had a lot of white South
  • 00:38:13
    Africans on campus feeling threatened
  • 00:38:15
    personally threatened but the issues
  • 00:38:17
    right now are really complicated and
  • 00:38:20
    come out of among the most
  • 00:38:22
    complicated conflicts in our world
  • 00:38:26
    history um
  • 00:38:28
    when you know we we talk at the Harvard
  • 00:38:32
    negotiation project about looking for
  • 00:38:35
    winwin solutions that things are rarely
  • 00:38:39
    zero some and and people can build trust
  • 00:38:43
    and find solutions that won't satisfy
  • 00:38:45
    everything but that would be better than
  • 00:38:48
    Alternatives um rather than feeling like
  • 00:38:50
    negotiation is Win Lose I just have to
  • 00:38:52
    beat
  • 00:38:53
    you um right now in the Middle East
  • 00:38:56
    we're really in a lose
  • 00:38:58
    lose um we're in a cycle of lose lose in
  • 00:39:01
    a way that is
  • 00:39:03
    heartbreaking and we're getting an echo
  • 00:39:05
    of that on campuses as people
  • 00:39:09
    say um look we want to protect a
  • 00:39:13
    learning environment and we want to
  • 00:39:14
    support people being able to express
  • 00:39:18
    themselves freely and those have to we
  • 00:39:21
    have to figure out a way to navigate
  • 00:39:22
    those as a community together and I
  • 00:39:25
    think we haven't done a great job of
  • 00:39:27
    engaging everybody in shared
  • 00:39:29
    responsibility for navigating those two
  • 00:39:33
    together that shared responsibility when
  • 00:39:36
    you're discovering How Deeply personally
  • 00:39:39
    invested the issues are you you use the
  • 00:39:41
    example of apartheid versus what we're
  • 00:39:43
    experiencing now and you you you've
  • 00:39:47
    already alluded on a couple of occasions
  • 00:39:48
    in our conversation to the fact that you
  • 00:39:50
    know the the national narrative in the
  • 00:39:53
    Walter kronite era really while true in
  • 00:39:57
    one sense was insufficient there are
  • 00:40:01
    there were many people the Native
  • 00:40:02
    American story the African-American
  • 00:40:04
    story and ironically even my own
  • 00:40:07
    family's story that you know though I
  • 00:40:09
    was named Walter we had a very distinct
  • 00:40:12
    experience uh as my family did as
  • 00:40:15
    korean-american immigrants which wasn't
  • 00:40:17
    a part of the Paul bunan story that I
  • 00:40:21
    would learn about in my Early Education
  • 00:40:25
    yes and so um
  • 00:40:27
    we're discovering now the plurality of
  • 00:40:30
    stories that exist I think this true
  • 00:40:33
    even within churches because people are
  • 00:40:35
    coming from all sorts of various
  • 00:40:37
    backgrounds you know the Parish Church
  • 00:40:40
    in which people for multiple Generations
  • 00:40:43
    grew up with one another knew each
  • 00:40:45
    other's grandparents that that's like
  • 00:40:48
    the a a decreasing reality the churches
  • 00:40:52
    are populated by people that have moved
  • 00:40:54
    there maybe have moved from multiple
  • 00:40:58
    locations multiple times in their lives
  • 00:41:01
    and so there isn't the same kind of
  • 00:41:03
    homogeneity uh that exists in any
  • 00:41:06
    Community really church or neighborhoods
  • 00:41:10
    and that means different stories now um
  • 00:41:15
    need to be told different sets of facts
  • 00:41:18
    different feelings different identities
  • 00:41:19
    are at play in our
  • 00:41:22
    community um and you I was struck by um
  • 00:41:26
    one uh Community I was doing a little
  • 00:41:28
    bit of research as I was interacting
  • 00:41:31
    with some Pastors in this community that
  • 00:41:34
    had talked about you know this issue of
  • 00:41:37
    multi ethnic Ministry and said you know
  • 00:41:40
    but most of my neighborhood is is it's
  • 00:41:43
    all white so we may have this beautiful
  • 00:41:45
    desire for a multiethnic church
  • 00:41:47
    reflecting this vision of a multiethnic
  • 00:41:50
    you know community of God um but that's
  • 00:41:53
    not the reality later I did some
  • 00:41:55
    research and found out that 20% of their
  • 00:41:58
    county is
  • 00:41:59
    Hispanic um and and yet it's a story
  • 00:42:03
    that's not not of not just told not told
  • 00:42:07
    but it's not even seen because of the
  • 00:42:09
    ways that we can navigate life we don't
  • 00:42:11
    even see that there are some different
  • 00:42:13
    facts on the ground so it it all this
  • 00:42:17
    stuff you've been so helpful in this
  • 00:42:20
    conversation in the plurality that we
  • 00:42:23
    face that is held with deep conviction
  • 00:42:27
    and
  • 00:42:28
    animosity maybe even promulgated by the
  • 00:42:33
    133% that is in very unhelpful ways
  • 00:42:37
    creating
  • 00:42:38
    problems what would you say to the 87%
  • 00:42:41
    just as a concluding
  • 00:42:44
    thought to to give us both encouragement
  • 00:42:47
    but but also
  • 00:42:49
    courage not just to bury our heads but
  • 00:42:52
    to engage in this difficult conversation
  • 00:42:55
    work I mean some of it is just to stand
  • 00:42:58
    back and see the beauty of that
  • 00:43:03
    plurality and to appreciate it it can
  • 00:43:06
    feel overwhelming and it can feel scary
  • 00:43:09
    and we can feel like I'm going to say
  • 00:43:10
    the wrong thing because I don't totally
  • 00:43:13
    understand I'm coming from my own story
  • 00:43:16
    always um so it it is maybe a harder
  • 00:43:21
    conversation but it's also a more
  • 00:43:23
    beautiful conversation and if if we come
  • 00:43:25
    back to the community that Jesus brought
  • 00:43:28
    together it was Reaching Across the
  • 00:43:31
    broadest spectrum of
  • 00:43:33
    society um in a way
  • 00:43:36
    that uh
  • 00:43:38
    honored where people were coming from
  • 00:43:40
    and what their individual challenges
  • 00:43:42
    were at the time I I I was just thinking
  • 00:43:45
    about the parents of teenagers in any
  • 00:43:50
    congregation and on the one hand you
  • 00:43:52
    would say well you know they all kind of
  • 00:43:54
    have the same challenges Etc when in
  • 00:43:56
    fact their specific challenges might be
  • 00:43:59
    quite
  • 00:44:01
    different right one one family is really
  • 00:44:04
    worried about
  • 00:44:07
    depression um or anxiety going on other
  • 00:44:09
    is worried about their academic success
  • 00:44:13
    another's worried about their physical
  • 00:44:14
    capabilities another is worried about
  • 00:44:17
    they're starting to drive and I'm
  • 00:44:20
    worried about their safety and not
  • 00:44:22
    because of just the dangers of the road
  • 00:44:24
    and other is like I'm worried about
  • 00:44:25
    their safety because if they get stopped
  • 00:44:27
    they are much more at risk as a person
  • 00:44:29
    of color right and and so the the
  • 00:44:33
    question
  • 00:44:35
    of the
  • 00:44:37
    beautiful and challenging plurality of
  • 00:44:39
    how do we really see each
  • 00:44:42
    other and support each other in the
  • 00:44:45
    variety of challenges that we face um as
  • 00:44:50
    communities and subc communities and and
  • 00:44:53
    then across the country um the more we
  • 00:44:56
    can really see and Care show that
  • 00:45:00
    care um I think the the easier the
  • 00:45:03
    conversation will be and the stronger
  • 00:45:05
    will be as a
  • 00:45:08
    nation Sheila thank you so much this
  • 00:45:11
    conversation has really been Rich
  • 00:45:14
    encouraging and and and deeply
  • 00:45:18
    equipping well thank you I want to live
  • 00:45:20
    in the Walter Kim era can we have that
  • 00:45:23
    be the next
  • 00:45:24
    era you're very kind
  • 00:45:28
    yeah I mean I think that the care that
  • 00:45:31
    that you're putting
  • 00:45:33
    into helping us all step back and think
  • 00:45:36
    about how we want to show up with each
  • 00:45:39
    other um is is one of the things that is
  • 00:45:43
    missing in the conversations that we're
  • 00:45:45
    having so thank you for that
Tag
  • Difficult Conversations
  • Communication
  • Polarization
  • Identity
  • Social Media
  • Negotiation
  • Community Engagement
  • Pluralism
  • Emotions
  • Trust