The 7 SURPRISING Ways To Heal Trauma WITHOUT MEDICATION | Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk
摘要
TLDRThe video contains an in-depth discussion with Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, focusing on trauma's impact on individuals and society. It highlights how trauma leads to a lack of self-control due to intense emotional reactions, unlike stress which is temporary. The social environment is crucial in supporting trauma recovery as it helps individuals feel safe and secure. Dr. van der Kolk emphasizes the prevalence of trauma, affecting a significant portion of the population through abuse, violence, and other traumatic experiences. Treatment approaches explored include yoga, which aids in calming the body, EMDR, which helps in reprocessing traumatic memories, neurofeedback for brain organization, theater for expressing different roles, and psychedelics for expanding the mind and processing trauma. The conversation also challenges conventional treatments for chronic conditions like fibromyalgia, urging a view of them linked to trauma. A holistic approach to treatment and the importance of feeling safe within one's body are central themes. Finally, the importance of not shaming victims and recognizing their survival methods is underscored.
心得
- 🧠 Trauma impacts both the mind and body and can lead to a sense of losing control.
- 🤝 Strong social connections are vital for recovery from trauma.
- 🔄 Trauma differs from stress as it involves ongoing reactions.
- 🧘 Yoga and other body-focused therapies help calm intense reactions.
- 💭 EMDR and neurofeedback can effectively aid in trauma treatment.
- 🎭 Theater and movement help restore a sense of agency in individuals.
- 🌿 Psychedelics are being explored as a novel approach to trauma therapy.
- 📊 Trauma is prevalent, and recognizing it can foster compassionate understanding.
- 👥 Trauma's secrecy often impedes healing, awareness needs to increase.
- 💡 Many chronic conditions are intertwined with trauma and need holistic care.
时间轴
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
In "The Body Keeps the Score," trauma is described as an internal reaction to external events, leaving individuals with intense emotional reactions. They often feel emotionally out of control, blaming their responses and struggles on external circumstances. The challenge is recognizing and controlling these reactions, as shutting down emotionally can distance oneself from others.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
The conversation highlights that trauma is common, with many individuals experiencing abuse, domestic violence, and attacks, yet many remain silent due to shame and secrecy. The speaker emphasizes how reactions vary based on temperament and social support, with community connections vital for recovery and resilience, especially in shared traumatic events like wartime.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Discussing the need for societal awareness of trauma, it is suggested that we need to create trauma-informed environments that focus on safety and agency. The speaker elaborates on how even seemingly minor incidents in relationships can trigger reactions rooted in past traumas, leading to disproportionate responses due to unresolved childhood issues.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Emphasizing the societal impact, the speaker notes the importance of understanding trauma beyond individual symptoms, affecting various systems like schools and workplaces. The discussion compares trauma responses to stress and highlights how unresolved trauma perpetuates heightened reactivity and health issues like autoimmune disorders, and chronic conditions, calling for patience and multifaceted treatment approaches.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
The speaker addresses frustrations within the medical community about treating conditions linked to trauma, like fibromyalgia. There's a call to understand the deep connections between trauma and enduring health problems, urging a shift from dismissive attitudes by developing specific, holistic care strategies to help patients, highlighting issues in doctor-patient interactions and the need for more compassionate approaches.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
They explore the way trauma impacts perceptions of safety in one’s own body, affecting emotional states. Yoga is highlighted as a powerful intervention, helping individuals become calm and focused, opening pathways for self-examination and resilience. The therapeutic impact of yoga is acknowledged as a method for reintegrating and reconnecting with both the self and others.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Yoga and other physical practices, such as martial arts or dance, are recommended to individuals to reestablish comfort in their bodies. The impact of breath-work and mindful movement is shown to help regulate neurological responses, assisting trauma survivors to manage physiological reactions more effectively and remain present in daily life.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
The body's learned responses to stress and trauma can inhibit recovery if not addressed. Movement-oriented practices encourage physiological changes that aid recovery by activating brain areas tied to sensory experience. The speaker underscores the individual need to find suitable practices to reestablish safety and pleasure in one's physical existence.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
There is a recognition of movement’s fundamental role in human experience, underlined by the social nature of historically shared and communal activities. The shared aspects of movement transform trauma recovery in group settings, challenging culturally individualistic approaches found in Western medicine, particularly through social engagements like group exercises.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Theater is highlighted for its transformational ability in trauma recovery, enabling individuals to explore new identities and express repressed emotions. Engaging in role-playing allows people to embody and visually experience different facets of humanity, offering a therapeutic space for empowerment and tonal shifts from internalized defeat to renewed agency.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
The conversation transitions into evidence-based practices with the importance of research validation. Movement-based interventions are linked to studies supporting their efficacy, advocating for broader implementation in therapeutic settings, particularly focusing on the importance of community and collective healing for holistic recovery.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
EMDR is discussed as an unconventional yet effective therapy for trauma, emphasizing its role in reorganizing neural networks to alleviate traumatic triggers and memories. EMDR's success is tied to its capacity to transform traumatic memories into non-threatening past events, underscoring the need for evidence-based treatment validation.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
The discussion shifts to the challenges of treating complex trauma with methods like EMDR, laying out its capabilities and limitations. EMDR is posited as particularly effective for acute, single-incident trauma, though it faces challenges in broader applications, stressing the critical need to understand treatment suitability for varied trauma contexts.
- 01:05:00 - 01:10:00
The speaker praises dance, drama, and movement practices in trauma therapy, emphasizing how they facilitate emotional release and personal growth. Strengthening these practices through scientific inquiry could amplify their integration into mainstream therapy, providing meaningful paths for trauma survivors.
- 01:10:00 - 01:15:00
Technology's role in trauma work is acknowledged with neurofeedback and digital applications emerging as tools to bridge brain connectivity consciously. These methods promote harmony within brain functioning, potentially offering targeted, adaptive interventions to support diverse psychological needs in trauma recovery.
- 01:15:00 - 01:20:00
Psychedelic therapy is presented as a compelling intervention undergoing study, illustrating its potential by broadening perspectives and nurturing self-compassion. Ensuring safety through stringent controls validates these therapies’ benefits in altering entrenched trauma responses, although care is advocated to avoid misuse.
- 01:20:00 - 01:25:00
Reflecting on trauma's societal lessons, the speaker affirms survivors’ resiliency and adaptive strategies, even if problematic, as crucial insights into human endurance. While often arising from painful experiences, such transformations can contribute to larger cultural understandings of compassion and innovative coping.
- 01:25:00 - 01:31:27
The conversation wraps by contemplating on trauma’s role in inspiring resilience and creativity, acknowledging those who channel transformative experiences into art and knowledge, ultimately enriching humanity. It's emphasized that while trauma can yield profound insights, individual and collective responsibility toward healing and support remains indispensable.
思维导图
常见问题
What did Dr. Bessel van der Kolk mean by saying trauma robs you of feeling in charge of yourself?
He explained that trauma causes people to have intense emotional reactions that are hard to control, making them feel that their lives are out of control.
What is the primary difference between stress and trauma according to Dr. van der Kolk?
Stress ends once the stressful event is over, but trauma results in ongoing intense emotional reactions long after the event.
How common is trauma?
Trauma is extremely common, with many people experiencing abuse, violence, or traumatic events during their lives.
Why does Dr. van der Kolk emphasize the importance of a social environment after trauma?
He suggests that having a supportive social environment helps individuals feel safe and recover from traumatic experiences.
What can be effective treatments for trauma according to the video?
Yoga, EMDR, neurofeedback, theater, and psychedelics are mentioned as effective treatments that help individuals manage and heal from trauma.
What role does movement and theater play in healing trauma?
Movement and theater allow individuals to experience different states and roles which can help in re-establishing their sense of self and agency.
How does the video describe the societal understanding of trauma?
Trauma is often hidden due to shame and secrecy, and there needs to be a shift towards compassionate understanding and management.
What potential does psychedelics hold in trauma treatment?
Psychedelics can open up the mind to new possibilities and might help individuals process trauma by not feeling engulfed by it.
How should chronic illnesses like fibromyalgia be viewed according to Dr. van der Kolk?
These conditions are often linked to trauma and require a multi-faceted approach for treatment rather than being dismissed as psychological issues.
What importance does Dr. van der Kolk place on bodily sensations in relation to trauma?
He stresses that trauma is experienced in the body, and healing involves reconnecting with the body's sensations to feel safe again.
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- 00:00:00I wanted to start with a quote from your
- 00:00:03iconic book the body keeps the score
- 00:00:06trauma robs you of the feeling that you
- 00:00:09are in charge of yourself
- 00:00:11oh that's that's a true statement what
- 00:00:15did you mean by that
- 00:00:17um
- 00:00:18where you get traumatized
- 00:00:21it's not the external event but your
- 00:00:24reaction to that external event is that
- 00:00:27you uh you cannot cope with it and then
- 00:00:31You're vulnerable to react to other
- 00:00:34things as if they're catastrophes so you
- 00:00:37may suddenly find yourself very scared
- 00:00:40or very angry or very aroused a very
- 00:00:44panicky or you can shut down and so you
- 00:00:48really have no control over this intense
- 00:00:50emotional reactions that happen after a
- 00:00:53trauma yeah so in many ways people who
- 00:00:57are traumatized feel that their lives
- 00:01:01are out of control that life is I guess
- 00:01:04happening to them rather than them being
- 00:01:07in control of their lives yeah they they
- 00:01:10keep reacting to stuff and
- 00:01:14things are disorganized and then
- 00:01:17oftentimes they start off blaming the
- 00:01:19people around them for having caused
- 00:01:22them to be so angry or Panic or
- 00:01:24something or another but after a while
- 00:01:26people start realizing oh it's really my
- 00:01:30reactions that uh that make life so
- 00:01:33difficult and so how do I control these
- 00:01:35reactions becomes a major issue and
- 00:01:39oftentimes people learn to sort of shut
- 00:01:41themselves down and learn to not react
- 00:01:44but with that they they become very uh
- 00:01:47distant to themselves and the people
- 00:01:49around them
- 00:01:51I think what you said there was really
- 00:01:53quite poignant for me that we often
- 00:01:56think it's the people around us that are
- 00:01:58causing us
- 00:01:59to feel a certain way without that deep
- 00:02:02realization that actually
- 00:02:04we're generating those emotions we may
- 00:02:06not know why we're generating them but
- 00:02:08ultimately it's coming from within us
- 00:02:10isn't it yeah that the whole story had
- 00:02:13like because you know negotiating your
- 00:02:16ways to the world is complex
- 00:02:18um people will say things that may not
- 00:02:22be pleasant or they may not respect you
- 00:02:24as much as you'd like it to be but the
- 00:02:27core issue is how do I react to adverse
- 00:02:31issues and I cannot change everybody
- 00:02:34else I have to actually
- 00:02:37learn to manage my own arousal and my
- 00:02:42own reactivity yeah
- 00:02:46what's the difference between trauma and
- 00:02:49stress
- 00:02:51the big difference is when stress is
- 00:02:53over
- 00:02:54it's over
- 00:02:56and so when you sit for an exam you're
- 00:02:58working hard and you may not be able to
- 00:03:00sleep but once you take the exam you can
- 00:03:03go for a walk you can go do whatever you
- 00:03:06want to do and the the stress disappears
- 00:03:10and stress it's not bad for people
- 00:03:12because we really are
- 00:03:17programmed to deal with very adverse
- 00:03:19circumstances
- 00:03:21that people can deal with a great deal
- 00:03:24of stress but the critical thing is when
- 00:03:26the stress is over and you've done
- 00:03:28whatever you need to do to deal with it
- 00:03:30then your body resets itself you become
- 00:03:33calm and you stop being hyper focused or
- 00:03:36whatever but you get trauma test those
- 00:03:38reactions don't stop
- 00:03:41so trauma is almost like a severe stress
- 00:03:45response
- 00:03:46that never ends and that starts to
- 00:03:49change our nervous system and how we
- 00:03:52view the world how we react to the world
- 00:03:54is that is that one way of putting it no
- 00:03:57it's not it's not as cognitive as view
- 00:03:59the world as really how we react to the
- 00:04:01world a reactivity uh changes and we may
- 00:04:07become too intensely uh aroused by minor
- 00:04:11issues so actually so Trump we're
- 00:04:15talking from a neuro
- 00:04:18Neuroscience point of view we have some
- 00:04:20networks in the brain that help us to
- 00:04:23select what's important what's an
- 00:04:25important is called the salience network
- 00:04:27and after you get traumatized the
- 00:04:30salience network makes you react to
- 00:04:33minor issues as if it's a catastrophe
- 00:04:37yeah
- 00:04:39how common is trauma would you say oh
- 00:04:42extremely common and there's of course
- 00:04:44all kind of radiations but things like
- 00:04:47being abused by your own parents uh
- 00:04:51being uh brutalized in your personal
- 00:04:55Relationships by somebody uh is
- 00:04:58extremely common and it is really ironic
- 00:05:02that when we first defined PTSD we said
- 00:05:05this is an extraordinary event outside
- 00:05:08the usual range of human experience and
- 00:05:12we were completely wrong about it but
- 00:05:14because when we started to look at it we
- 00:05:16found out that at least one out of four
- 00:05:19women but out of five or six men sexual
- 00:05:24abuse
- 00:05:25experiences before the onset of
- 00:05:28adulthood for example that a very large
- 00:05:32number of women get raped a very large
- 00:05:35numbers of people are involved in
- 00:05:37domestic violence situations
- 00:05:39so it's in fact it's turned out to be
- 00:05:42much more common than we ever thought it
- 00:05:44would be
- 00:05:46I mean those statistics are really
- 00:05:47alarming when you put it like that I
- 00:05:49imagine uh Dr vandercoat that some
- 00:05:53people who were listening or watching
- 00:05:55right now will think wow is it that many
- 00:05:57people they will think well I know loads
- 00:06:01of women and loads of guys and I've
- 00:06:04never heard about this happening to them
- 00:06:06which potentially speaks to
- 00:06:08secrecy shame the fact that many people
- 00:06:12have suffered this and are continuing to
- 00:06:15suffer because of the traumatic imprints
- 00:06:18but they're not talking about it right
- 00:06:21that is on the mark that uh when you
- 00:06:25after you get try if you after you get
- 00:06:27salted or after you get Vaped you don't
- 00:06:29go around telling people about it
- 00:06:31there's always this issue of I I must be
- 00:06:34to blame for what happens or if you're
- 00:06:37in the domestic violence situation you
- 00:06:40don't tell people oh my my boyfriend or
- 00:06:43my girlfriend just beat me up because
- 00:06:45that reflects badly on you and so shame
- 00:06:49and secrecy is very much part of trauma
- 00:06:52situations it's very striking when
- 00:06:54there's a public trauma uh my example in
- 00:06:59the culture I live in is 9 11 had a
- 00:07:02technical Trade Center when there's an
- 00:07:04over trauma people tend to be very
- 00:07:06generous in terms of coming to people's
- 00:07:09helps but these private dramas of abuse
- 00:07:12Etc uh become hidden and people try to
- 00:07:17go on with their lives but they keep
- 00:07:19reacting as if it's still going on yeah
- 00:07:21now when I think about trauma and
- 00:07:25traumatic events
- 00:07:27I think about the fact that different
- 00:07:30people being exposed to the same trauma
- 00:07:32will react in different ways some people
- 00:07:35will end up becoming heavily traumatized
- 00:07:38yeah whereas some people won't so what
- 00:07:42are the factors then that determine if
- 00:07:45someone is going to
- 00:07:47have that chronic imprint of trauma or
- 00:07:50whether they're going to be able to deal
- 00:07:51with it you know deal with that stress
- 00:07:53response and return back to Baseline do
- 00:07:55we know what those factors are well
- 00:07:57there certainly is an issue of
- 00:07:58temperament
- 00:07:59anybody who has more than one child
- 00:08:02knows that we all come into the world
- 00:08:04with very different reactivity and
- 00:08:07different responses so that is one
- 00:08:10factor but the other major factor is the
- 00:08:13uh is the social environment and who is
- 00:08:16there for you when something bad happens
- 00:08:18by and large if you go through a
- 00:08:22terrible experience and you have a
- 00:08:24partner a spouse a parent a boss who
- 00:08:28says oh my God how can I help you I'll
- 00:08:31be there for you but in your social
- 00:08:33environment helps you to protect
- 00:08:36yourself and to feel safe again that
- 00:08:39makes a huge difference so the the
- 00:08:41principle for example after natural
- 00:08:44disasters or after accident since uh War
- 00:08:49situation the first thing you do is you
- 00:08:51reconnect people with the people they
- 00:08:54love and care for because that is really
- 00:08:57what for human beings is the main source
- 00:09:00of comfort and so as long as you have
- 00:09:03people around you who acknowledge the
- 00:09:05reality of what you went through and who
- 00:09:08are with you in a very deep way you
- 00:09:10probably will be okay yeah and that of
- 00:09:14course is what happens in like wartime
- 00:09:17situations when people are at War like
- 00:09:20what's happening in Ukraine right now uh
- 00:09:22is that people feel very close to each
- 00:09:25other and that's sort of a natural
- 00:09:28biological thing almost that when we are
- 00:09:31under extreme stress we really become
- 00:09:33very dependent on each other and we form
- 00:09:36very close bonds and that's how people
- 00:09:38survive but if the people who are your
- 00:09:43most intimate people are deserved to
- 00:09:44determine you lose that sense of
- 00:09:46connection and protection and then they
- 00:09:50oftentimes that is when people go over
- 00:09:52the edge yeah it's interesting it's
- 00:09:53always preparing for this conversation
- 00:09:55and I was reading in your work the
- 00:09:57importance of human connection at making
- 00:09:59us I guess generally more resilient but
- 00:10:03in many ways insulating us from
- 00:10:07the likelihood that a traumatic event is
- 00:10:10going to leave a chronic imprint inside
- 00:10:12yes it's it's insulin is a bit of an
- 00:10:16extreme word here okay it helps it's uh
- 00:10:20it makes a significant contribution yeah
- 00:10:23but instead no it's true total a word
- 00:10:26but overall when your kid for example
- 00:10:30and you need to go through an operation
- 00:10:32or uh terrible things happen to you and
- 00:10:36your parents are there for you and
- 00:10:38acknowledge it then that kid is likely
- 00:10:40to be okay yeah huh yeah really really
- 00:10:43interesting
- 00:10:45yeah I think one of my aims with having
- 00:10:48this conversation with you uh is to
- 00:10:52try and raise awareness of trauma
- 00:10:55certainly to my audience and as you've
- 00:10:58already touched on it's much more common
- 00:11:01than we might think I certainly feel
- 00:11:03that the word is now much more commonly
- 00:11:07known about spoken about potentially
- 00:11:10in settings that you may not regard as
- 00:11:12trauma like we can maybe talk about that
- 00:11:15but I do think this affects everyone on
- 00:11:19some level whether individually or
- 00:11:21judging from your statistics that you
- 00:11:23shared there's there's absolutely going
- 00:11:26to be someone in our life who we
- 00:11:28interact with who has been traumatized
- 00:11:31so I think it's imperative that we all
- 00:11:33have a deeper and more compassionate
- 00:11:35understanding
- 00:11:37of what it is and therefore what we can
- 00:11:39do to help people
- 00:11:41absolutely uh and it's true that people
- 00:11:45are beginning to it the concept gets
- 00:11:47inflated
- 00:11:48people's pin too much on trauma also in
- 00:11:51some ways at the same time uh
- 00:11:54a time is a very real issue let me give
- 00:11:58you an example I I live in a couch in
- 00:12:00the mountains of Western Massachusetts
- 00:12:01and they gave a big public talk and
- 00:12:04after the school principles of this area
- 00:12:07invited me to meet with them and they
- 00:12:09say can you set up a clinic retirement
- 00:12:12as kids
- 00:12:13and I asked him so many how many of the
- 00:12:16kids in our County see domestic violence
- 00:12:19witness people overdosing on drugs uh uh
- 00:12:24get beaten up at home and the School
- 00:12:27principles said about half of our kids
- 00:12:32and my response then was then you should
- 00:12:35not have a clinic for termites kids you
- 00:12:37should have a school system that helps
- 00:12:39traumatized because
- 00:12:41which is at least about half of your
- 00:12:43population to really learn to regulate
- 00:12:45our bodies and to and to you need to
- 00:12:48have a trauma informed school and not
- 00:12:50read it as an individual problem because
- 00:12:52it's largely social problems and so once
- 00:12:55you understand trauma you change the
- 00:12:58workplace you change your schools you
- 00:13:00change your hospitals and you really
- 00:13:02start paying more attention to the issue
- 00:13:05of individual safety and agency to help
- 00:13:08people to function yeah
- 00:13:11now with the same trauma
- 00:13:13I think most of the public would
- 00:13:15understand
- 00:13:16intuitively if someone's been to war
- 00:13:19let's say we would say that's a
- 00:13:21traumatic experience yeah but what about
- 00:13:24something that I think
- 00:13:26pretty much anyone who's ever been in a
- 00:13:29relationship will experience something
- 00:13:31like this at some point when their
- 00:13:32partner says something to them that may
- 00:13:35well be on the surface quite trivial but
- 00:13:38for some reason the other partner
- 00:13:42disproportionately reacts maybe they're
- 00:13:44being reminded of when a parent
- 00:13:46criticized them when they were five
- 00:13:47years old and when their partner says
- 00:13:49something it isn't about what the
- 00:13:51partner said it's about the feeling that
- 00:13:53evokes very similar to what you just
- 00:13:55mentioned that happened when you were a
- 00:13:58child can we say that is trauma as well
- 00:14:02well no I would say it's about an
- 00:14:05experience but I'm glad you borders are
- 00:14:08of this example because you know about a
- 00:14:11third of all couples engage in violence
- 00:14:14violent interactions so uh
- 00:14:17a lot of people carry a lot of trauma
- 00:14:19and in relationships it comes out and uh
- 00:14:24but once you get become intimate with
- 00:14:26somebody else you live with that
- 00:14:28triggered behavior and some things may
- 00:14:30be extremely upsetting for your partner
- 00:14:33who may become very angry or shut down
- 00:14:35in response to things that you have no
- 00:14:39idea but was so awful about it and at
- 00:14:42that point once you become a sensitive
- 00:14:45you can go like oh my partner is still
- 00:14:48being just being nasty mean and horrible
- 00:14:50my partner gets upset by something it
- 00:14:53has very little to do with me
- 00:14:55and you can really just take a step back
- 00:14:59and say honey let's go for a walk before
- 00:15:02we address this or let's play some
- 00:15:05tennis together or let's uh sit in this
- 00:15:08for a moment or talk to somebody who
- 00:15:10else about what's going on here so you
- 00:15:13get the heat of the situation uh you
- 00:15:16could you decrease the heat of what's
- 00:15:18going on but the relationships all the
- 00:15:20time of course yeah in fact in my
- 00:15:23experience at least I see this playing
- 00:15:25out in people's close personal
- 00:15:27relationships all the time it's of
- 00:15:30course it could be about what's
- 00:15:31happening in their relationship but in
- 00:15:33my experience it's very rarely about
- 00:15:34what happened in that moment it's what
- 00:15:37that is making that other person feel
- 00:15:41um which is why I think your work is so
- 00:15:42important both for people who have
- 00:15:44experienced trauma but also for people
- 00:15:47who want to help their loved ones who
- 00:15:49have been traumatized yeah yeah
- 00:15:52and indeed it comes out intimidating
- 00:15:55issues most people are able to
- 00:15:59to organize themselves pretty well under
- 00:16:03in neutral conditions have for example I
- 00:16:06have no idea that whether you become
- 00:16:09violent in your personal relationships
- 00:16:10or not and you don't know about me
- 00:16:13because we don't have the sort of
- 00:16:15relationship where we will get triggers
- 00:16:17about these very core issues so it's not
- 00:16:20until you really negotiate very complex
- 00:16:23issues about that happens in close
- 00:16:25relationships that these issues come out
- 00:16:28uh uh so it gets it gets contained
- 00:16:32within relationships and I keep urging
- 00:16:35my colleagues who do outcome studies to
- 00:16:38always not only ask people themselves
- 00:16:41but how do you react but as their
- 00:16:44spouses or their loved ones because they
- 00:16:46oftentimes can be say more about
- 00:16:48people's emotional reactions yeah
- 00:16:52yeah
- 00:16:53so if we think about
- 00:16:56trauma we're saying it's very common
- 00:16:57it's more common than many of us realize
- 00:17:01as a medical doctor
- 00:17:04I'm incredibly fascinated stroke
- 00:17:08frustrated that trauma is not really
- 00:17:12spoken about that much to medical
- 00:17:13students because I think about
- 00:17:15particularly in general practice
- 00:17:18you know the sort of chronic conditions
- 00:17:21that often come in to primary care
- 00:17:23doctors
- 00:17:25you know anxiety depression addictions
- 00:17:28uh migraines fibromyalgia all you know a
- 00:17:32whole host of issues autoimmune problems
- 00:17:35actually that the scientific research
- 00:17:37seems to suggest that trauma could well
- 00:17:40play a role in a significant number of
- 00:17:42these conditions
- 00:17:43absolutely and indeed
- 00:17:46um
- 00:17:47you know it's given a temperamental
- 00:17:49issue that most people go into medicine
- 00:17:53want to have clear answers and clear
- 00:17:56paradigms and we go to medical school we
- 00:18:00learned about all these diseases
- 00:18:02and their diseases and we don't to start
- 00:18:06talking about social context would make
- 00:18:09it even more complicated so you don't
- 00:18:11learn about it and actually right now I
- 00:18:14was meeting with some old friends from
- 00:18:16my medical school days is that we
- 00:18:19oftentimes did Terrible Things to
- 00:18:20patients and did not really understand
- 00:18:23how terrified they were of let's say
- 00:18:27white doctors and how they would be
- 00:18:30neglected neglecting their physical care
- 00:18:33because they were too terrified about
- 00:18:35doctors to actually bring it up with
- 00:18:37them and so uh yeah I'm very glad that
- 00:18:41some people in some medical schools and
- 00:18:43medical settings are beginning to pay
- 00:18:45attention to it because the title of my
- 00:18:47book the body keeps the score is not
- 00:18:50just a cute title
- 00:18:51actually that it affects your immune
- 00:18:55system it affects your stress responses
- 00:18:58and people who have long-term histories
- 00:19:00oftentimes have multiple medical
- 00:19:02problems you have to do with their body
- 00:19:05they get stuck in uh fear fight and
- 00:19:09flight
- 00:19:10and so fibromyalgia is a very good
- 00:19:13example fibrology is pretty much related
- 00:19:17to trauma but it's so diffuse that like
- 00:19:22I am friends with very old men who used
- 00:19:26to the National Institute for
- 00:19:27Rheumatology in America and they say so
- 00:19:30do you guys study fibromyalgia he says
- 00:19:32no how does a disease of crazy people
- 00:19:34yeah and here's the guy who's the top
- 00:19:37rheumatologist in America who just
- 00:19:39dismisses this very complex and very
- 00:19:42debilitating illness because the people
- 00:19:45who have it are just too complex to deal
- 00:19:48with and difficult and resistance yeah
- 00:19:51and so get nice clean illnesses yeah Hey
- 00:19:55listen I I'm I want to just pause on
- 00:19:57this point because I think it's really
- 00:19:59important first of all I do think
- 00:20:02medicine
- 00:20:03uh for all its benefits for all the
- 00:20:06conditions that we do manage to help
- 00:20:07with there's many conditions that we
- 00:20:09don't do a very good job with and I
- 00:20:11think we can be quite condescending as a
- 00:20:14profession sometimes to certain
- 00:20:16sufferers of certain conditions like
- 00:20:18fibromyalgia because they don't fit in a
- 00:20:20neat box that we can do oh this is the
- 00:20:23problem this is the pill it's going to
- 00:20:25get better and so I think doctors often
- 00:20:28feel quite frustrated and Powerless as
- 00:20:31well I don't think they're necessarily
- 00:20:32wanting to be derogatory I think they
- 00:20:34thought they were going to learn what
- 00:20:36they needed to treat these patients and
- 00:20:38then they're faced with people who keep
- 00:20:40coming back and they don't know what to
- 00:20:42do so I think that's one point I wanted
- 00:20:44to raise absolutely you also mentioned
- 00:20:47something that I think we should just
- 00:20:48explore a little bit you said
- 00:20:50fibromyalgia
- 00:20:51it's a condition uh that that is I don't
- 00:20:55know if you said often or always related
- 00:20:57to trauma now I think we let's just
- 00:20:59clarify what we mean there because there
- 00:21:01will be people listening with
- 00:21:02fibromyalgia this may be the very first
- 00:21:04time they've heard it so can we just
- 00:21:06just broaden that out a little bit so
- 00:21:09that they can understand what you mean
- 00:21:10by that
- 00:21:12yeah
- 00:21:13but you study fragment and you do a
- 00:21:17trauma history on people you usually
- 00:21:18find a severe trauma history usually
- 00:21:21within the attachment system often not
- 00:21:24feeling safe and
- 00:21:26what happens I think is very much what
- 00:21:28happens with all of us to some degree
- 00:21:30when we come to be scared we become
- 00:21:33uptight and we start physically becoming
- 00:21:37defensive and hold on to ourselves and
- 00:21:40that uptightness and trying to control
- 00:21:44things made them uh eventually get
- 00:21:47expressed as fibromyalgia but you become
- 00:21:51a very anxious and currently upset
- 00:21:52person and uh
- 00:21:55the Hardesty for medicine is there is no
- 00:21:58clear answer it's not like oh let's let
- 00:22:01me give you a pill and you feel better
- 00:22:03you really need to go through a whole
- 00:22:04process uh that might very well involve
- 00:22:08body oriented therapy maybe massages
- 00:22:11maybe really working with bodily
- 00:22:14reactions which of course in medicine we
- 00:22:16never do uh that that really need much
- 00:22:20more intervention that we are capable of
- 00:22:22or that our systems allow us to
- 00:22:24intervene with I know quite a few people
- 00:22:26who have resources in America with
- 00:22:29fibromyalgia who find the right people
- 00:22:31to work with who know about bodily
- 00:22:34reactions but they're very hard to find
- 00:22:36yeah I would agree with I've seen many
- 00:22:38patients with conditions like
- 00:22:40fibromyalgia and and I found what can be
- 00:22:42effective is when you take this
- 00:22:44multi-pronged approach you do lots of
- 00:22:46different things it's not just one thing
- 00:22:47different patients will need different
- 00:22:49things different things are going to
- 00:22:50appeal to them but it's in my experience
- 00:22:53at least Dr vandika can I appreciate
- 00:22:55you've got vast amount of experience in
- 00:22:57this area I have found that you just
- 00:23:01have to experiment and you need to try
- 00:23:03different things but I also would say
- 00:23:05you know I would share with you that if
- 00:23:08I think back to a lot of my patients who
- 00:23:10I've seen in the past with fibromyalgia
- 00:23:12when you explore deep enough yes it's
- 00:23:16It's Not Unusual to find some history of
- 00:23:19trauma there as well I would definitely
- 00:23:21agree with that
- 00:23:22see and then you say the right thing
- 00:23:24here you need to be patient to try
- 00:23:26multiple times but probably NHS
- 00:23:30and our insurance system doesn't give us
- 00:23:33the time to really explore these things
- 00:23:35because I think all Physicians really
- 00:23:38are on a video of pressure to alleviate
- 00:23:41get rid of their patients and move on
- 00:23:43and so these patients are time consuming
- 00:23:46and require a team approach and our
- 00:23:50assistance may not be prepared for that
- 00:23:53yeah and then the next thing happens we
- 00:23:56become frustrated and then we start
- 00:23:59being mean and nasty to the people who
- 00:24:02suffer for only aggravating their
- 00:24:05condition and so I I think the places
- 00:24:08start for us as caregivers is if we get
- 00:24:11particularly mad at a particular person
- 00:24:13or feel frustrated by a particular
- 00:24:16person to really Mark that and say oh
- 00:24:19this person is really driving me mad
- 00:24:22let's see what's going on with the
- 00:24:24patient that the patient makes me feel
- 00:24:27so helpless so the natural sing then is
- 00:24:31to become somewhat abusive with people
- 00:24:33like that yeah because they make us feel
- 00:24:37bad and they take our time and they they
- 00:24:40don't follow the rules and so when when
- 00:24:43you have people like that it's really
- 00:24:44important for us to have our capacity to
- 00:24:47step back with our colleagues and to
- 00:24:49really reassess what's going on here
- 00:24:52yeah is it so I think our own reactions
- 00:24:55are a very important Bell weather of
- 00:24:58whether we're dealing with a traumatized
- 00:25:00person and I think as Physicians we have
- 00:25:03an amazing capacity to help recreate
- 00:25:06trauma for our patients
- 00:25:07wow they hear that all the time for
- 00:25:09people who go to Medical Systems you
- 00:25:11know I know people who have breast
- 00:25:13cancer and heart disease and they tell
- 00:25:16me about the exquisitely good care they
- 00:25:19got in our systems and how great the
- 00:25:22nurses were and how great the doctors
- 00:25:23were and then you deal with people with
- 00:25:25trauma histories who have served these
- 00:25:28unknown issues and they always tell us
- 00:25:30tell me how terrible they get treated by
- 00:25:34the system and I go yep that's what
- 00:25:35happens yeah that's very very profound
- 00:25:39because what we're saying is that
- 00:25:43us the medical system Healthcare
- 00:25:46professionals
- 00:25:48as you just put it on re-traumatizing
- 00:25:51patients who are already traumatized we
- 00:25:54may not realize we're doing it but
- 00:25:56because of the lack of understanding the
- 00:25:58lack of knowledge the lack of time
- 00:26:00those patients who were already
- 00:26:02struggling
- 00:26:03these are a lot of the time the ones who
- 00:26:07they feel lost they don't know where to
- 00:26:09go they're seeking out books or new
- 00:26:12information just to see what can I do I
- 00:26:15don't want to stay like this forever and
- 00:26:17it's not just you know the conditions
- 00:26:19you mentioned even a lot of people with
- 00:26:20autoimmune illness you know I've I've
- 00:26:22found that they also respond very well
- 00:26:24to this kind of multi-pronged approach
- 00:26:26um
- 00:26:27I really want to get to
- 00:26:29a central uh philosophy of your work
- 00:26:32that I take from it at least which is
- 00:26:34about the body keeping the score that's
- 00:26:37the title of your book but this idea
- 00:26:39that the body keeps a record of what has
- 00:26:42happened and that one of the goals of
- 00:26:44therapy is to help people feel safe in
- 00:26:47their bodies yeah now I think a lot of
- 00:26:50people may not understand what that
- 00:26:52means what do you mean when you say we
- 00:26:54need to feel safe in our bodies
- 00:26:57well you know I think Darwin already
- 00:27:00back in 1872
- 00:27:02wrote a beautiful book in which she
- 00:27:04talks about trauma actually he calls it
- 00:27:06getting stuck in fight or flight or
- 00:27:09stuck in avoidance and defensive
- 00:27:11reactions which is not a bad definition
- 00:27:13and he talks about how these experiences
- 00:27:17are expressed in the course of the vagus
- 00:27:20nerve he Darwin goes to pneumogastric
- 00:27:23nerve back then and that you experience
- 00:27:25your emotions as God wrenching and
- 00:27:29heartbreaking physical Sensations
- 00:27:32and I think we all are familiar with
- 00:27:34that have been something hurtful happens
- 00:27:37we do feel it in our chest and we feel
- 00:27:39it in our bodies and so our bodies
- 00:27:42respond to these things and when you get
- 00:27:45traumatized that feeling of uh of
- 00:27:48a gut venge and heartbreak really stays
- 00:27:52with you and there's becomes you become
- 00:27:54an intolerable person to yourself
- 00:27:58[Music]
- 00:27:59ring a bell with you because I you know
- 00:28:02I I make it a point whenever I travel
- 00:28:04and I go to a place where I don't know
- 00:28:06the language I always ask in your
- 00:28:08language to have a do they have a word
- 00:28:10for gutwench and every language has a
- 00:28:13word for it yeah it's a universal
- 00:28:14response that you experience deep
- 00:28:17disappointment and betrayal and fear in
- 00:28:21your body yeah
- 00:28:23I think people have experienced that if
- 00:28:25anyone's ever been through heartbreak
- 00:28:27before
- 00:28:28they which we all have which yeah pretty
- 00:28:31much everyone has been through on some
- 00:28:32level you feel it
- 00:28:34yeah in your hearts like you literally
- 00:28:37can feel it the pain the discomfort
- 00:28:39there so I think when we start thinking
- 00:28:41about it it's like oh yeah that's in our
- 00:28:43body like Something's Happened up here
- 00:28:45in our mind we've perceived it a certain
- 00:28:46way and then our body is expressing a
- 00:28:48symptom of that so I think this is a
- 00:28:52really good point to talk about
- 00:28:54some of these practical things that
- 00:28:56people can start doing to help
- 00:28:59themselves I mean frankly the things
- 00:29:01you're talking about are helpful for
- 00:29:02anyone but can we start with yoga right
- 00:29:05I know yoga is something you talk about
- 00:29:07as a really fantastic way for many
- 00:29:09people to start feeling that safety
- 00:29:12within their bodies how did you come
- 00:29:15across yoga and why do you think it's so
- 00:29:18effective for so many people
- 00:29:20well you know these things are usually
- 00:29:24an issue of accidents that you happen to
- 00:29:27meet somebody who does yoga and who says
- 00:29:29come and do yoga class with me and then
- 00:29:32you do that and then you feel that your
- 00:29:35body feels calmer and your mind is more
- 00:29:37focused afterwards you see all this
- 00:29:39thing so actually so I went to Nationals
- 00:29:42with mental health and got the money to
- 00:29:45study yoga as a way of calming that body
- 00:29:48down uh but now people say oh yoga is
- 00:29:51treatment of choice I don't know maybe
- 00:29:53some other people Qigong may be better
- 00:29:56or Tai Chi or some other musical
- 00:29:59practice has but for me going to yoga
- 00:30:03was really a way of exploring to what
- 00:30:06degree people can change their
- 00:30:07relationship to their bodily Sensations
- 00:30:09and yoga turned out to be very good for
- 00:30:12that but certainly It's Not The Only Way
- 00:30:14Studios still love to do someday is see
- 00:30:18how Tango dancing works for time
- 00:30:20theoretically
- 00:30:22that would make a lot of sense as being
- 00:30:24a really good time achieve it actually
- 00:30:25and so so as and what I see all the time
- 00:30:29is that the people who are in my life
- 00:30:32who are traumatized they go and start
- 00:30:34exploring different things that help
- 00:30:37them
- 00:30:38uh and uh some people find it let's say
- 00:30:42acupuncture is very helpful other people
- 00:30:45say it doesn't do his thing for me and
- 00:30:46so we don't know precisely what is right
- 00:30:49for whom but it's very important for us
- 00:30:51to have an open mind about uh and you
- 00:30:55need to have an open mind for yourself
- 00:30:56also to really see what can help me to
- 00:31:00feel alive in the body that they live in
- 00:31:04to make sure you're taking action after
- 00:31:06watching this video I have created a
- 00:31:08free breathing guide that's going to
- 00:31:10help you reduce stress calm your minds
- 00:31:12and boost your energy in this guide I
- 00:31:15share with you six really simple
- 00:31:17breathing practices that work
- 00:31:20immediately even just one minute a day
- 00:31:23will start to make a big difference to
- 00:31:25receive your free guides all you have to
- 00:31:27do is click on the link in the
- 00:31:30description box below
- 00:31:31so is that the commonality then you
- 00:31:33mentioned a few things here let's say
- 00:31:34yoga and Qigong for example
- 00:31:37um you're saying that for many people
- 00:31:40who are traumatized
- 00:31:42they don't feel safe in their body they
- 00:31:44don't experience everything that's
- 00:31:46happening within their body they shut
- 00:31:47down in certain ways and you're saying
- 00:31:50one method that may work for some people
- 00:31:53is through something like yoga or Qigong
- 00:31:56or martial arts for example
- 00:31:59um what is it that's going on you're
- 00:32:01starting to connect to your body you're
- 00:32:03starting to connect to your breath and
- 00:32:04how do you put it what do you think may
- 00:32:06be happening there that's helpful
- 00:32:09what happens there is that you are stuck
- 00:32:13in the stress response syndrome and for
- 00:32:16example when you start breathing more
- 00:32:18slowly and more deeply and you change
- 00:32:21your breath you change your heart rate
- 00:32:23variability which is a way of measuring
- 00:32:25how the heart and the central nervous
- 00:32:27system relate to each other and then you
- 00:32:30get a sense of relief and openness once
- 00:32:34you are able to do things that calm that
- 00:32:36system down and so initially having
- 00:32:40somebody work with your breath you go
- 00:32:42like I don't want to do that and and
- 00:32:44then if you learn to breathe much more
- 00:32:46slowly and much more deeply you get a
- 00:32:48sense of oh I feel calm I feel clear and
- 00:32:51what you do actually at this point is
- 00:32:54you open up some Pathways in the brain
- 00:32:56between your parts of your frontal lobe
- 00:33:00and your insula apart your brain that's
- 00:33:03connected with your bodily Sensations
- 00:33:05and you open up new Pathways of
- 00:33:07self-experience basically yeah it's so
- 00:33:10fascinating I know when I was reading
- 00:33:13the section on treatment in your book
- 00:33:16um after you wrote about what trauma is
- 00:33:18he said when you're
- 00:33:20starting to treat trauma there was one
- 00:33:23part we spoke about this these four
- 00:33:25things that need to happen one you need
- 00:33:27to find a way to become common focused
- 00:33:29two you need to be able to maintain that
- 00:33:31calm in response to things and events
- 00:33:34and people that trigger you to the Past
- 00:33:36then the third thing I think was being
- 00:33:39present you had to find a way of being
- 00:33:41present in your life and with the people
- 00:33:43in your life and then the fourth thing
- 00:33:45there was you have to not keep secrets
- 00:33:48from yourself now the reason I bring
- 00:33:50that up there thank you that's I had
- 00:33:53forgot there's four approaches yeah it
- 00:33:55was it was it was really beautiful the
- 00:33:57way you wrote about it in your book and
- 00:34:00I think what you just said about yoga
- 00:34:02there speaks to the first one there
- 00:34:04which is number one you've got to find a
- 00:34:06way to become calm and focused yeah so
- 00:34:09for people who are traumatized if you're
- 00:34:10stuck you won't go into certain parts of
- 00:34:12their body who don't want to do certain
- 00:34:14poses or positions because it doesn't
- 00:34:16feel good it sounds as though what
- 00:34:20you're saying is that when people can
- 00:34:22find some sort of practice that helps
- 00:34:24them feel safe in their body whether
- 00:34:25it's yoga or something else
- 00:34:27that it's gonna start to help them
- 00:34:31experience what does calm feel like
- 00:34:34because I guess many of these people
- 00:34:35don't actually know what it feels like
- 00:34:37to be calm even for just 10 or 15
- 00:34:39minutes right I think that people mainly
- 00:34:43learn is how to cut off their feelings
- 00:34:47I said some many people learn to not
- 00:34:50feel and of course Psychiatry is very
- 00:34:53good at it also because like things like
- 00:34:55Prozac makes you feel less
- 00:34:58yeah and so you get less overwhelmed by
- 00:35:01your feelings but by blunting your
- 00:35:03feelings you also lose your capacity for
- 00:35:06pleasure
- 00:35:07and enjoyment yeah so so by a very
- 00:35:11common adaptation to trauma is to just
- 00:35:13shut yourself down and becoming that
- 00:35:16uptight person that manages somehow to
- 00:35:20make it through your day but uh it's in
- 00:35:22order to recover you need to open up
- 00:35:25these Pathways of self-experience and
- 00:35:28that you need somebody who really gently
- 00:35:31helps you to to reconnect with yourself
- 00:35:33I think you published a study did you
- 00:35:36know on yoga and PTSD from Recollections
- 00:35:39three of them yeah yeah what do they
- 00:35:41show
- 00:35:42they showed us uh if you do yoga for
- 00:35:45eight or twelve weeks that your PTSD
- 00:35:48scores go down we did some newer Imaging
- 00:35:51and we see some new linkages in the
- 00:35:53brain coming online particularly having
- 00:35:55to do with areas that brain have to do
- 00:35:57with uh self-experience self sensory
- 00:36:01experience and what the study showed is
- 00:36:04that when people do yoga they are more
- 00:36:07open uh to being with other people less
- 00:36:10frightened of being with other people
- 00:36:12and less afraid of themselves most of
- 00:36:15all yeah wow very very powerful it's
- 00:36:18interesting but I want to say it's
- 00:36:20really then people say oh yoga is the
- 00:36:23answer no yoga was a paradigm that
- 00:36:26helped us to understand how engaging
- 00:36:28with your body in a particular way is
- 00:36:30helpful but it's not the final word on
- 00:36:34the story yeah I love that I mean that
- 00:36:36is speaking to my heart you're really
- 00:36:38touching on I think one of the big
- 00:36:40problems I see around and
- 00:36:42today in terms of thinking about how we
- 00:36:44treat people with chronic health
- 00:36:45problems whether it's trauma or anything
- 00:36:47else it's like what does that narrow
- 00:36:50reductionist study show up oh great oh
- 00:36:52it works and that's okay great that
- 00:36:54means that's the treatment for every
- 00:36:56patient and it's like if you see real
- 00:36:59people with real problems you realize
- 00:37:00that actually there's no one-size-fits
- 00:37:02all like for someone that might be
- 00:37:04brilliant but for someone else it may be
- 00:37:07it isn't the right thing for them but I
- 00:37:10feel like I I say this a few times on
- 00:37:12the podcast I think science is important
- 00:37:14it's very important
- 00:37:16but I think we
- 00:37:18make inferences and we draw conclusions
- 00:37:21that we then think are applicable to all
- 00:37:24whereas as you say that just simply
- 00:37:26showed us that this Paradigm here
- 00:37:29therapies like yoga which help us
- 00:37:33experience our bodies more have the
- 00:37:34potential to help so but you know in my
- 00:37:37travels I meet a lot of people who claim
- 00:37:39that they do amazing things by doing
- 00:37:42let's say Equine Therapy working with
- 00:37:45horses and I say interesting and so I
- 00:37:50collect these people and on my website
- 00:37:52the term Research Foundation website we
- 00:37:54had these people talk about their
- 00:37:56systems sometimes and then we do need
- 00:37:59the evidence so that the next step is
- 00:38:01always for me to say so let's help you
- 00:38:05to do a study where we can really see
- 00:38:07which is effective for it who it's not
- 00:38:09effective for I think evidence is
- 00:38:12terrible importance but but we've seen
- 00:38:14our field oftentimes that we close the
- 00:38:16Barn Door prematurely yeah we find it if
- 00:38:20project Works some of the time for some
- 00:38:22people say oh cheap project is treating
- 00:38:24of choice no sometimes project works for
- 00:38:27particular people let's see for whom
- 00:38:29it's very person for whom it doesn't
- 00:38:30work yeah I love that I think it's a
- 00:38:33really nice way of putting it
- 00:38:35um moving on to another therapy or I
- 00:38:37know when I've heard you speak before
- 00:38:38you talk about theater and movement you
- 00:38:41put those two things together and I I
- 00:38:43first of all I find it interesting that
- 00:38:45you put theater and movement together
- 00:38:46when you're when certainly what I heard
- 00:38:48you talk about it but can you elaborate
- 00:38:51a little bit on what's so powerful about
- 00:38:54theater and movement and how it can help
- 00:38:56people with trauma yeah I'd like to
- 00:38:59tease this apart a little bit so the
- 00:39:02movement issue is terribly important and
- 00:39:04that's not really part of how we think
- 00:39:06in psychologist Psychiatry or even
- 00:39:09medicine but basically uh we express our
- 00:39:13aliveness through the body the movements
- 00:39:15we make and when you work with children
- 00:39:18for example they explore their movement
- 00:39:21and their relationship of how their body
- 00:39:23affects the growth around them and how
- 00:39:25the world of also affects their body and
- 00:39:28many
- 00:39:30hypothesis studies over the past 150
- 00:39:33years show the term oftentimes is
- 00:39:35related to physical immobility
- 00:39:38when you get attacked by somebody it's
- 00:39:42very important to activate your fight
- 00:39:44flight system and to fight and to punch
- 00:39:47back but at the core of much trauma is
- 00:39:50people being unable to do something to
- 00:39:53change the situation and so people go
- 00:39:55into a
- 00:39:57state of where the agency no longer
- 00:40:00matters and so and some very good
- 00:40:03studies in Neuroscience also you're the
- 00:40:05doors but done some of that as long as
- 00:40:08you can move in response to a really uh
- 00:40:11challenging situation and do something
- 00:40:13you're going to be all right headed at
- 00:40:17the core of but make something dramatic
- 00:40:19is oftentimes an inability to do
- 00:40:22anything and many times there's people
- 00:40:25as you again probably know as a
- 00:40:27physician yourself tend to become very
- 00:40:29passive and tend to sort of ask us for
- 00:40:34pills and stuff to make their Fitness go
- 00:40:36away but it becomes very hard for them
- 00:40:38to do things and to activate their
- 00:40:41bodies and so movements and doing
- 00:40:45something that makes your body feel
- 00:40:48alive and capable is a very important
- 00:40:51part of being alive yeah I've heard you
- 00:40:54speak previously about
- 00:40:55hurricanes that have happened you know
- 00:40:57big natural disasters and
- 00:41:01you were speaking about the fact that
- 00:41:03yes
- 00:41:05a lot of people are affected you know
- 00:41:07not big natural disaster has happened
- 00:41:11but the fact that
- 00:41:13people are coming together they're
- 00:41:14helping others they're moving you were
- 00:41:17saying that in many ways that helps them
- 00:41:19to process the trauma can you speak to
- 00:41:21that a little bit at all please yeah
- 00:41:22exactly exactly that we are you know we
- 00:41:26are an extremely resilient species you
- 00:41:29know we are everywhere we have we're
- 00:41:31almost as good as cockroaches like human
- 00:41:33beings are very stressful it's just and
- 00:41:36so we can adapt ourselves as long as
- 00:41:39we're doing things with other people and
- 00:41:41making things happen and we were we're
- 00:41:43building very homophobic we're people
- 00:41:46who do things and as long as you can do
- 00:41:48something you get a sense of yep that
- 00:41:51hurricane sucked and I really miss my
- 00:41:52house and it's very terrible but my
- 00:41:54friends came over and helped me to build
- 00:41:56a house and wasn't it great that I was
- 00:41:59able to
- 00:42:00put a roof over my head again and help
- 00:42:03people to get supplies Etc so doing
- 00:42:07something to to uh to overcome your
- 00:42:10helplessness is terribly important
- 00:42:12actually
- 00:42:13and and of course the medicine tends to
- 00:42:15be very passive you have people go to a
- 00:42:18doctor and they have to be compliant
- 00:42:20with their doctor's orders I don't like
- 00:42:22the word compliance very much because
- 00:42:24people really need to own what they do
- 00:42:26and experience what they do yeah a few
- 00:42:28years ago I wrote a book on stress and
- 00:42:30when I
- 00:42:31um talking about stress to companies or
- 00:42:35to people or groups of people one of the
- 00:42:37things I often say is that
- 00:42:39you've got to understand the stress
- 00:42:41response on one level is preparing your
- 00:42:43body to move right it's you know the
- 00:42:47Predator The Lion The Tiger whatever it
- 00:42:49it was
- 00:42:50you're getting ready to move but if it's
- 00:42:53your
- 00:42:54if you're sat on your bottom and it's
- 00:42:56your email inbox that's stressing you
- 00:42:58out under your workload and the fact
- 00:43:00that you're on Zooms for 10 hours in a
- 00:43:02row
- 00:43:03your body is is getting primed and ready
- 00:43:05to move but because you're not moving
- 00:43:07that it almost gets stuck and you're not
- 00:43:10processing the stress energy that's
- 00:43:12built up yeah do you think that's
- 00:43:15accurate well I I think it's accurate I
- 00:43:18think it's a very very important issue
- 00:43:20in our current culture yeah we become
- 00:43:23more and more virtual living a virtual
- 00:43:26reality secluding you and me I really
- 00:43:28enjoy talking with you but if you sat in
- 00:43:30the same room together we would actually
- 00:43:31have a relationship afterwards yeah we
- 00:43:33don't really form this sort of bond the
- 00:43:36ordinary form with other people by
- 00:43:38interacting the way we do and I I think
- 00:43:41it's a major challenge for us to uh to
- 00:43:45really look at at the impact of that and
- 00:43:48I think it's going to have a major
- 00:43:50negative impact on us as human beings to
- 00:43:53become to sitting on our butt and living
- 00:43:55through a virtual reality and virtual
- 00:43:58yeah with people it's it's a very big
- 00:44:01issue I don't think we know very much
- 00:44:03about it because it's relatively decent
- 00:44:05phenomenon but it's something worthy of
- 00:44:08a great deal of attention yeah it's
- 00:44:10really interesting as I think about
- 00:44:12your writings about trauma about
- 00:44:15movements like yoga for example that can
- 00:44:18help us feel safe in our bodies and then
- 00:44:20what we're just talking about the stress
- 00:44:22response and actually without Movement
- 00:44:23we can't really discharge that energy
- 00:44:26it's very hard
- 00:44:28and I'll be thinking about this for a
- 00:44:29few months now it's very hard to not
- 00:44:31draw the conclusion
- 00:44:33that movement
- 00:44:36and exercise whatever you want to call
- 00:44:37it
- 00:44:38for many years has been talked about
- 00:44:41through the lens of physical health and
- 00:44:43I think we're now becoming more and more
- 00:44:45aware that yes movement is very
- 00:44:46important for our mental health as well
- 00:44:48but I but actually think it goes beyond
- 00:44:50that it feels to me as though if we're
- 00:44:53not moving our bodies in a whole variety
- 00:44:55of different ways
- 00:44:57we can't actually Express and tap into
- 00:45:01our full potential as a human being
- 00:45:03right it's that important to who we are
- 00:45:05I believe
- 00:45:07yeah I I miss you on that that's
- 00:45:10something uh that we get that sense of
- 00:45:12pleasure
- 00:45:13from being engaged with our body the
- 00:45:16pleasure is very somatic response and I
- 00:45:19think people don't talk much about
- 00:45:21pleasure but I think pleasure is a very
- 00:45:23important part of life you need to have
- 00:45:25a sense of having a get together with a
- 00:45:27friend oh like you did this weekend
- 00:45:29numbers and you have arguments about
- 00:45:31stuff and you move together and then you
- 00:45:33get a feeling of wow life is worth
- 00:45:36living because I really made that
- 00:45:37connection with that person I distance
- 00:45:39together with that person and the I I'm
- 00:45:42very concerned about the virtual world
- 00:45:45that we're moving into here in that
- 00:45:47regard
- 00:45:48let's talk about theater yeah I'm good
- 00:45:53because we've mentioned you know yoga
- 00:45:55then movements in terms of really
- 00:45:57practical things that people can take
- 00:45:59away from this conversation go oh I
- 00:46:00wonder if this will work for me I wonder
- 00:46:02if this is useful for someone in my life
- 00:46:05theater and Shakespeare that I've heard
- 00:46:08you talk about is fascinating so tell
- 00:46:11tell us what's going on there what
- 00:46:13what's you know what how can this be
- 00:46:15helpful
- 00:46:16well you know let's start and we've
- 00:46:19development of the person hadn't
- 00:46:20actually just spent some times with
- 00:46:22grandkids and they're always playing
- 00:46:23different roles and now I'm going to be
- 00:46:26an astronaut and they try it out and now
- 00:46:29I'm going to be a hunter and try it out
- 00:46:31and that's how human beings learn uh
- 00:46:35what it feels like in your body to have
- 00:46:37different roles but struck me with
- 00:46:40traumatized people is at some point that
- 00:46:43identity becomes an identity of defeat I
- 00:46:48used to be a warrior but now I cannot
- 00:46:49move anymore I used to be a sexy woman
- 00:46:52but now I'm frozen in my body uh or a
- 00:46:56sexy man for that matter and and so
- 00:46:58Thomas of fixates people in a particular
- 00:47:01role in life of which has to do with
- 00:47:04helplessness and uh when I look at my
- 00:47:08kids and then we have this wonderful
- 00:47:10theater in the area where I live called
- 00:47:12Shakespeare in the court where uh where
- 00:47:16they teach juvenile delinquents were all
- 00:47:19of terrible trauma histories to
- 00:47:21six people play Shakespeare roles and
- 00:47:24they get to feel oh this is what it
- 00:47:27feels like to be a king this is what it
- 00:47:29feels like to feel powerful this but it
- 00:47:31feels like to be a murderer and then you
- 00:47:34get to on a visceral level uh experience
- 00:47:38the very different
- 00:47:40multi-modality of ourselves and we get
- 00:47:43to really feel oh I can be powerful and
- 00:47:46that's what it feels like but you cannot
- 00:47:49be powerful until you actually hold it
- 00:47:52in your body and so playing Macbeth
- 00:47:57gives you a feeling oh that's what it
- 00:47:59feels like to be a boring and nasty
- 00:48:01person and then and you can play these
- 00:48:04different roles and theater helps you to
- 00:48:07really viscerally experience other ways
- 00:48:09of moving in the world and you then you
- 00:48:12ordinary habitual responses is it right
- 00:48:14there where you live that juvenile
- 00:48:16delinquents when they're up before the
- 00:48:19judge they're often given the choice but
- 00:48:21between you know jail time or detention
- 00:48:25center time
- 00:48:27and learning Shakespeare that's what's
- 00:48:29actually happening
- 00:48:31to act in a play it is doing you learn
- 00:48:36sword fighting and that's a very very
- 00:48:40complex thing to do is to learn to all
- 00:48:42that sort of but when you do that you
- 00:48:44feel like wow I can defend myself I
- 00:48:47could really be a powerful person so you
- 00:48:50need to have a visceral experience of
- 00:48:52power and control that has been taken
- 00:48:55away from you by your trauma are we
- 00:48:57seeing that those kids then are
- 00:48:58improving I mean can you tell us any
- 00:49:00stories what's happened that the to
- 00:49:02these kids because I think it sounds
- 00:49:05I can believe that rationally it's you
- 00:49:07know I think we we all know maybe we
- 00:49:10don't think about it but if you stand up
- 00:49:13tall with your chest puffed out exactly
- 00:49:16you feel completely differently you feel
- 00:49:18powerful and strong and if you roll your
- 00:49:21shoulders and compress your ribs you
- 00:49:23yeah you feel a bit insecure and you
- 00:49:27know I think we can get that so it
- 00:49:28totally makes sense to me that as you
- 00:49:31said a lot of people who are traumatized
- 00:49:32get stuck they get stuck
- 00:49:35in I guess certain body positions as
- 00:49:37well right yes absolutely yeah body
- 00:49:39positions of
- 00:49:41of defensiveness of collapse uh and and
- 00:49:47the way you hold your body and you put
- 00:49:50it very well because the research shows
- 00:49:52social exactly what you say is that when
- 00:49:55you put yourself in a position of let's
- 00:49:56say there's a body position uh that
- 00:49:59denotes Joy every culture in the world
- 00:50:02you raise your hands you open your mouth
- 00:50:04you open your rib cage and when you
- 00:50:07freeze people in a bodily position of
- 00:50:09joy and you say to them now I want you
- 00:50:12to be angry they say I can't be angry as
- 00:50:16long as it stands like this because in
- 00:50:17order to be angry and there's steps like
- 00:50:19that yeah and so it's really important
- 00:50:22to to honor that piece of knowledge by
- 00:50:26helping people to experience different
- 00:50:28states of being by the way you hold your
- 00:50:31body so on that then what happens like
- 00:50:36you know I love the idea that around the
- 00:50:38world uh people you know juveniles who
- 00:50:41have committed crimes who've been
- 00:50:43traumatized are offered this or other
- 00:50:46modalities as a way of rehabilitating
- 00:50:48themselves experiencing different
- 00:50:50feelings and Sensations like how did it
- 00:50:53get to the point where
- 00:50:55the judge is now saying this I mean was
- 00:50:58were trials done was there you know
- 00:51:01growing evidence space what happened to
- 00:51:03make that a reality because that sounds
- 00:51:05really quite profound these things
- 00:51:07always start
- 00:51:09with individuals who are charismatic who
- 00:51:12convince some other people to work with
- 00:51:14them on something yeah so we always this
- 00:51:17always starts before there's evidence
- 00:51:20and I see this all over the world that
- 00:51:23wherever I've gone I see amazing
- 00:51:25programs done by charismatic and
- 00:51:27individuals but then when the
- 00:51:29charismatic individual dies it becomes
- 00:51:31old it does something else the programs
- 00:51:33die yeah and so but I'm very much in
- 00:51:36favor of and trying to promote is when
- 00:51:39you have this good method then we do the
- 00:51:41research and we make it evidence-based
- 00:51:43but for example I've never been able to
- 00:51:46get money to do a Tango study I've never
- 00:51:49gotten the money to uh see what Coral
- 00:51:53singing does for people but I have a
- 00:51:55friend in Russia we studied choral
- 00:51:56singing yeah and showed was a change how
- 00:51:59it changes the brain but as long as
- 00:52:01you're Frozen in that feed that disorder
- 00:52:05the singing and theater and yoga and all
- 00:52:09kinds of other things may not cross your
- 00:52:11mind as being effective say oh there's
- 00:52:13there's woozy and so I'm very much in
- 00:52:15favor of people actually studying a
- 00:52:18whole bunch of different things and see
- 00:52:20how effective it is yeah it's it's it's
- 00:52:22kind of what you're saying before about
- 00:52:24you may hear someone saying that Equine
- 00:52:26Therapy is working for this group of
- 00:52:28patients so you're going okay that's
- 00:52:29interesting so you start off open-minded
- 00:52:31you believe people and go okay that's
- 00:52:33interesting let's now study that let's
- 00:52:36let's and I think that's what the
- 00:52:38scientific method should be really good
- 00:52:40for is like we we listen to humans and
- 00:52:43real people who are experiencing things
- 00:52:46and a set of poo pooing it going isn't
- 00:52:49that interesting why don't we try and
- 00:52:51get some real scientific validity behind
- 00:52:53that so we can expand it out I think
- 00:52:55that's a really beautiful approach to
- 00:52:57take that would help so many more people
- 00:53:00it's a paradigm issue and so right now
- 00:53:04if you're a psychiatrist or an other
- 00:53:06medical person and you start talking
- 00:53:08about theater your colleagues will go
- 00:53:10he's gone off to deep end
- 00:53:12it's amazing how many people how many
- 00:53:15times my colleague who said oh he used
- 00:53:17to be quite good but now he's studying
- 00:53:19in yoga so he's gone off the deep end uh
- 00:53:22oh he used to be good but he's now
- 00:53:23studying EMDR his crazy masturbate your
- 00:53:26familiar oh he has the gun off the d-pad
- 00:53:28I've been accused of having gone off the
- 00:53:30d-pad so many times by academic career
- 00:53:32and so most people are
- 00:53:35most academicians want to be respectable
- 00:53:37and get money for their research and if
- 00:53:40you go this route it's not very likely
- 00:53:43that you'll get lots of financial
- 00:53:45support on an individual level how did
- 00:53:49you cope with that kind of criticism
- 00:53:52because a lot of things you're talking
- 00:53:53about
- 00:53:55are certainly things that are not
- 00:53:57conventionally taught to Western Medical
- 00:53:59Doctors but how was it for you as a
- 00:54:02respected academic clinician when you
- 00:54:05started getting this pushback well I
- 00:54:07used to be a respected academic
- 00:54:09clinicians but I studied drugs I did the
- 00:54:12first started some Prozac and Zoloft and
- 00:54:15at that time
- 00:54:16my star was high but once you started
- 00:54:19doing other things uh but you know
- 00:54:22that's a character logical issue I'm
- 00:54:25just a guy who is curious who likes to
- 00:54:29explore new things and so
- 00:54:32respectability was not my most important
- 00:54:35thing in my life and so characters
- 00:54:39Destiny and so I'm a person who likes to
- 00:54:42explore many different things I'm a
- 00:54:43person who speaks several different
- 00:54:45languages and so I can think in
- 00:54:47different paradigms and so that made it
- 00:54:50possible for me to look at different
- 00:54:52options uh and that's just the question
- 00:54:55of character Yeah Yeah you mentioned
- 00:54:59EMDR EMDR of course is another therapy
- 00:55:02that I've heard you speak about that can
- 00:55:05be helpful for certain people with with
- 00:55:08trauma uh what is the MDR and can you
- 00:55:12explain a little bit about your
- 00:55:13experience with it you know when did you
- 00:55:15find out about it what can it be helpful
- 00:55:17for how do people do it they do it
- 00:55:19themselves with a therapist maybe speak
- 00:55:22to EMDR a little bit please
- 00:55:24look EMDR is indeed a very strange
- 00:55:27treatment where you call ask people to
- 00:55:29call up the stuff that really bothers
- 00:55:32them but not to talk about it to just
- 00:55:35say remember what you saw remember we
- 00:55:38just felt in your body remember what he
- 00:55:41was thinking back then so become aware
- 00:55:44of that and then you ask people so stay
- 00:55:47there and you ask people to you move
- 00:55:50your fingers in front of people's eyes
- 00:55:51from side to side and you say just
- 00:55:54follow my fingers now if there was a
- 00:55:56crazy treatment that's a crazy treatment
- 00:55:58so my and everybody else first reaction
- 00:56:01is like that's bizarre don't listen to
- 00:56:04that stuff and then some of my own
- 00:56:06patience where it works with start
- 00:56:08coming back and says I did an EMDR and I
- 00:56:11see profound transfer informations and
- 00:56:13some of my colleagues are doing it and
- 00:56:15they showed me their video tapes and I
- 00:56:17go that's a dramatic change and so I see
- 00:56:21my patients I see the videos of my
- 00:56:23colleagues I say this clearly changes
- 00:56:26the brain in very profound ways and
- 00:56:29being sort of a neuroscientist uh
- 00:56:31oriented person I was became fascinated
- 00:56:34by studying what does eye movements do
- 00:56:37to the brain it took us 15 years to get
- 00:56:40enough money together to begin to do
- 00:56:42that study but it started off by doing a
- 00:56:45simple study comparing EMDR with Prozac
- 00:56:49and it turned out that these eye
- 00:56:51movements caused a very significant
- 00:56:53change in most people and so that was
- 00:56:57the first time I studied a method that
- 00:57:00didn't fit in with the Western Paradigm
- 00:57:02and the Western Paradigm is you yak or
- 00:57:06you take a drug
- 00:57:07and now you did something else and then
- 00:57:10from EMDR I learned that things that
- 00:57:13don't fit it's in our cultural Paradigm
- 00:57:15may work and certain some other people
- 00:57:18say tapping acupressure points may be
- 00:57:21helpful and they say what's the evidence
- 00:57:23for that there is no evidence for that
- 00:57:25and maybe study it and it turns indeed
- 00:57:27turns out that tapping these Chinese
- 00:57:29acupuncture Parts indeed seems to have
- 00:57:31an effect on people's physiological
- 00:57:33arousal and so uh but EMDR was
- 00:57:37particularly important here for me both
- 00:57:40because it was my first foray into
- 00:57:43something that didn't fit for the
- 00:57:44Paradigm and our results were
- 00:57:46extraordinary that we had a
- 00:57:49sixty percent cure rate with EMDR in a
- 00:57:54trauma sample now nobody's ever received
- 00:57:5660 cure let all the symptoms were gone
- 00:57:59and I think because it's so strange it
- 00:58:03doesn't fit with our paradigms uh many
- 00:58:06people tend to still poo poo it even
- 00:58:08though the evidence how well it works is
- 00:58:10very clear but
- 00:58:13so uh
- 00:58:15so e and Dr helps you to actually
- 00:58:18neutralize the memory her part of being
- 00:58:21traumatized is that certain
- 00:58:23remembrances certain events freak you
- 00:58:26out to make you obsess and but EMDR
- 00:58:28specifically does is there's particular
- 00:58:31triggers to passive as get get calmed
- 00:58:34down and you no longer get freaked out
- 00:58:38by the memory of particular Thomas
- 00:58:40uh and then people have a message and
- 00:58:43then they say oh let's use it for
- 00:58:45children who are chronically uh abused
- 00:58:49and orphanages I said no that's probably
- 00:58:51not the right treatment for them so so
- 00:58:53it's important to also know for whom it
- 00:58:57works and for whom it doesn't work and
- 00:58:59what we showed in our research is that
- 00:59:02people with long-standing histories of
- 00:59:04child abuse it didn't work all that well
- 00:59:07for them at least in the way that we did
- 00:59:09it yeah
- 00:59:10you know in your book which I think was
- 00:59:12it published in 2014 for the first time
- 00:59:14yeah it first came out 2014 yeah 2014
- 00:59:17right and I've got the page up in front
- 00:59:19of me while we don't yet know precisely
- 00:59:21how EMDR works the same is true of
- 00:59:24Prozac sorry since interrupt if you are
- 00:59:27enjoying this content there's loads more
- 00:59:29just like it on my channel so please do
- 00:59:31take a moment to press subscribe hit the
- 00:59:33notification Bell and now back to the
- 00:59:36conversation and it's it's a very
- 00:59:38powerful paragraph that at the end of
- 00:59:40chapter 15
- 00:59:42um whereas that was you know what eight
- 00:59:45nine years ago now when you wrote that
- 00:59:46so certainly when it was published you
- 00:59:48probably read it 10 11 years ago that
- 00:59:49section
- 00:59:51um do we now know how EMDR Works
- 00:59:54compared to when you actually wrote that
- 00:59:56book yes we so my colleague Serene
- 01:00:01herzarian and ruslanias and I did a
- 01:00:04study uh where we put people on the
- 01:00:06scanner and made and you saw that it
- 01:00:09activates certain circuitry in the brain
- 01:00:12and the circuitry in the brain that
- 01:00:14particularly activates a Sicilians
- 01:00:17Network the part of your brain that
- 01:00:19determines whether something is relevant
- 01:00:22or not and so but if you see with the
- 01:00:24people who lie in the scanner is that
- 01:00:27their their brain organizes the
- 01:00:29experience in a different way by
- 01:00:31creating new circuits of experience
- 01:00:34yeah and so it is not about
- 01:00:36understanding or Insight you just sort
- 01:00:38of tweaked the brain circuits in a way
- 01:00:41that helps you to not be overwhelmed by
- 01:00:43it you don't get raises but it becomes a
- 01:00:45memory yeah so so a traumatic experience
- 01:00:49is not a memory because the moment you
- 01:00:51go there you relive it and that's the
- 01:00:55nature of traumatic stuff and if if you
- 01:00:57have been raped you get really upset
- 01:00:59thinking or talking about your Vape but
- 01:01:02it is not a memory of something
- 01:01:03belonging to the Past it's a you're
- 01:01:06currently right now
- 01:01:08recreate the physiological state of that
- 01:01:12past event and what EMDR and to some
- 01:01:16degree yoga and neurofeedback and our
- 01:01:18psychedelics all seem to help us to do
- 01:01:21is to go there and to reorganize our
- 01:01:25perception of it and and become aware on
- 01:01:29a very deep level of this happened to me
- 01:01:31back then it's not happening right now
- 01:01:34and so are some circuits in the brains
- 01:01:36change that allow you to put it in the
- 01:01:39past to say yes it happens it's awful
- 01:01:42but I'm not feeling it today yeah yeah
- 01:01:45very clear very clear thank you
- 01:01:48um would you say EMDR should always be
- 01:01:50done with a therapist and the follow-up
- 01:01:53from that is there's a lot of what are
- 01:01:55called EMDR music tracks available now
- 01:01:58on streaming platforms which I know
- 01:02:00people like listening to I don't know if
- 01:02:03you have any experience of the music
- 01:02:05what it might do for people
- 01:02:07is that something quite different from
- 01:02:09what you're talking about in terms of
- 01:02:10seeing a seeing an EMDR therapist to
- 01:02:12take you through that process I wonder
- 01:02:14if you can speak to that a little bit
- 01:02:15please
- 01:02:16interesting actually I cannot speak
- 01:02:18about it because I've not studied that
- 01:02:20and see I'm so
- 01:02:23aware that time is about shame and about
- 01:02:27being disconnected for other people that
- 01:02:29I actually love the work of joining
- 01:02:33somebody and yeah helping me to deal
- 01:02:36with it in the context of a relationship
- 01:02:38with somebody with whom you no longer
- 01:02:41are ashamed about what happened to you
- 01:02:43so I'm not really a fan of mechanical
- 01:02:45devices because a lot of recovery from
- 01:02:49trauma is to re-establish Your Capacity
- 01:02:52connected to people around you and uh
- 01:02:55but that's that's my particular
- 01:02:57Prejudice in a way yeah I probably would
- 01:03:00have that slight bias as well in general
- 01:03:03and I do want to get to psychedelics and
- 01:03:07neurofeedback that you just mentioned
- 01:03:08but just to sort of close that Loop a
- 01:03:11little bit
- 01:03:12yoga which we started off talking about
- 01:03:15when we're talking about the the sort of
- 01:03:17things that people can do to heal from
- 01:03:19trauma
- 01:03:21I guess you would encourage people to do
- 01:03:22yoga
- 01:03:24as part of a group rather than by
- 01:03:27yourself on YouTube right
- 01:03:31yeah absolutely I'm really impressed I'm
- 01:03:35not a natural yoga person but if I'm a
- 01:03:39group of other people who are much more
- 01:03:41limber than I am and do much better job
- 01:03:44now I sort of absorb their limberedness
- 01:03:47and I enjoy doing it with other people
- 01:03:50um I think that's true for many things a
- 01:03:53psychedelic therapies also these days we
- 01:03:55sometimes do psychedelics in groups and
- 01:03:58I like it a lot because you experience
- 01:04:01this I have one particular experience
- 01:04:03and you have a different experience and
- 01:04:05then you really get to see that I'm part
- 01:04:07of mankind and I'm holding something
- 01:04:10that we all hold in different ways and I
- 01:04:13think the feeling of emotional isolation
- 01:04:16or the word I used in the previous book
- 01:04:19a lot not in this one is the the feeling
- 01:04:22of being God forsaken is very important
- 01:04:25part of trauma so I I think doing it in
- 01:04:27groups of other people uh as a dimension
- 01:04:31of humanity to the whole thing yeah and
- 01:04:34just before we get to neurofeedback just
- 01:04:36on that point
- 01:04:38talking about the Western Medical system
- 01:04:40and how it's set up
- 01:04:42it's very individualistic you know we
- 01:04:44see a patient in isolation we say this
- 01:04:47is what's wrong with you and this is
- 01:04:49what you need to do and I touched on
- 01:04:52this in my last book a little bit that
- 01:04:54maybe we've got the whole setup
- 01:04:56wrong for certain people because there's
- 01:04:59a movement in the UK called social
- 01:05:01prescribing that's growing massively
- 01:05:03where people are healing in communities
- 01:05:07they're they're going to let's say
- 01:05:09cooking classes or reading things or you
- 01:05:12know there's something called park run
- 01:05:13in the UK where people go
- 01:05:15every every Saturday morning in all the
- 01:05:17villages and towns you know maybe 50 100
- 01:05:19300 people get together and they
- 01:05:22complete 5K together some walk some run
- 01:05:25but it's a very Community
- 01:05:26orientated environment people are
- 01:05:29healing in communities not in isolation
- 01:05:32which I think really speaks to what
- 01:05:33you're talking about we're all watching
- 01:05:36the British baking show around the world
- 01:05:39of people cooking together making food
- 01:05:41together and
- 01:05:43it's interesting this point so when Tom
- 01:05:48was sort of reinvented or rediscovered
- 01:05:50I'd like to say Boston versus trial mode
- 01:05:53Vienna wants what's the music and we had
- 01:05:56a group of people in Boston like do the
- 01:05:58Herman you know new burger and turkey
- 01:05:59another people who all were into deeply
- 01:06:02into town where you talk to each other
- 01:06:03and our initial treatment was always
- 01:06:06group treatments because we didn't know
- 01:06:09what it had been like to be raped or to
- 01:06:11be Marine in Iraq or Afghanistan but
- 01:06:15they did and so we founded getting
- 01:06:18people in a group who really have been
- 01:06:20there decreased people's shame and also
- 01:06:24gave a lot of recognition to people it
- 01:06:26is actually quite horrifying to me how
- 01:06:29group treatment has sort of become a
- 01:06:32very tertiary treatment of course in the
- 01:06:35addiction community group treatment and
- 01:06:38self-step programs is still Central and
- 01:06:41the sense of community of people who
- 01:06:43have had similar experiences is terribly
- 01:06:45important and and I'm actually sort of
- 01:06:49pushing people to go back to do much for
- 01:06:52group treatment where if let's say you
- 01:06:55have been molested and you deal with it
- 01:06:57by cutting yourself
- 01:06:59it's shameful to cut yourself but when
- 01:07:02you're a group of other people say no
- 01:07:04but I get really upset I cut myself or I
- 01:07:06I put a burning cigarette out of my arm
- 01:07:10uh you don't go other people don't got
- 01:07:12it you should never do that you're gonna
- 01:07:14like oh yeah I cope it's in the same way
- 01:07:18and I also feel very embarrassed about
- 01:07:19it but what does it do for you it
- 01:07:22actually helps you when I do that yeah
- 01:07:23so you meet you have the potential of
- 01:07:26meeting people who are in much more
- 01:07:28understanding about what you go through
- 01:07:29then somebody who's gone to medical
- 01:07:32school yeah no 100 and they can all help
- 01:07:35each other of course probably in a much
- 01:07:37more powerful way than a doctor or
- 01:07:40Healthcare professional who's never
- 01:07:41experienced that
- 01:07:43um neurofeedback what is it I know you
- 01:07:46think it's or you've shown that it's a
- 01:07:48it's a powerful therapy potentially for
- 01:07:51people suffering from trauma can you
- 01:07:54explain what exactly it is does it help
- 01:07:56us rewire our brain who is it helpful
- 01:07:58for all kinds of things like this so
- 01:08:01neurofeedback is a method that you can
- 01:08:04put electrodes on people's skulls and
- 01:08:07our technology is good enough right now
- 01:08:09that despite the fact that the skull is
- 01:08:11quite sick you can actually Harvest
- 01:08:13these electrical brain wastes that are
- 01:08:15on the Nissan skull and by putting a
- 01:08:17number of electrodes on people's heads
- 01:08:19you can project the brain's electrical
- 01:08:22if the activity on a computer screen and
- 01:08:25you can sort of see what part of the
- 01:08:27brain is talking to what part of the
- 01:08:29brain and what is most active and what's
- 01:08:31most inactive and we have pretty good
- 01:08:33ideas about uh what sort of electrical
- 01:08:37activity helps with optimal functioning
- 01:08:40and oftentimes when we do this what's
- 01:08:42called quantitative eegs on termites
- 01:08:45people my reaction is oh my God how can
- 01:08:49you have a life for yourself because
- 01:08:50your brain is really messed I don't say
- 01:08:52it to people but you see some very
- 01:08:55serious disconnection between different
- 01:08:57parts of the brain which people think
- 01:08:59can and sometimes compensate for but by
- 01:09:02having a map of debate you can say okay
- 01:09:05we can now play computer games with your
- 01:09:07own brain waves where whenever you bring
- 01:09:10creates a sort of brain connections that
- 01:09:13are good for you uh a little color
- 01:09:16changes or some music changes so you you
- 01:09:18play back feedback to people's brains of
- 01:09:22that's good and if you don't make the
- 01:09:24right brain forms and certain forms that
- 01:09:27uh make you angry or hyper aroused you
- 01:09:30don't get feedback so you can sort of
- 01:09:32subtly give people a little sensory
- 01:09:35feedback through sounds and images of
- 01:09:38yeah make more of that so you can train
- 01:09:40the brain to make different connections
- 01:09:42it's not the trauma treatment it's a
- 01:09:45brain organization treatment I'm
- 01:09:48astounded that this is not done more
- 01:09:51widely and more often because it makes a
- 01:09:54lot of sense
- 01:09:55uh from a scientific point of view is
- 01:09:58that you can actually uh visualize these
- 01:10:01things and you can actually sort of
- 01:10:02nudge the brain to organize itself in a
- 01:10:05different way and so what's been
- 01:10:07stunning to me is that uh there's a guy
- 01:10:11in London uh John kruzelier who has done
- 01:10:14good research uh some people in Belgium
- 01:10:17uh some people in Germany and Ruth
- 01:10:20lanius and we are among the few people
- 01:10:22actually have studied this brain
- 01:10:24computer interface methods and I think
- 01:10:27it's enormously powerful and uh we have
- 01:10:31done studies with kids who are just
- 01:10:33completely off the wall unable to go to
- 01:10:36school unable to to learn and we can
- 01:10:39calm their brains down so they can
- 01:10:40actually focus and not get out of
- 01:10:42control so this can be for many of us
- 01:10:45with depression anxiety chronic stress
- 01:10:48kids who feel out of control it's just a
- 01:10:51way of
- 01:10:52harmonizing yourself a little bit with
- 01:10:54your brain right yeah right and I you
- 01:10:58know my dream is that every school in
- 01:11:00America has a newer feedback
- 01:11:03system and a neurof capacity so when
- 01:11:05kids come to school and they're just off
- 01:11:08the wall and terrified and angry because
- 01:11:10they have all these experiences they
- 01:11:12have just had at home that you can help
- 01:11:14these kids to calm their brains down so
- 01:11:17they can actually learn and get along
- 01:11:19with other kids
- 01:11:21yeah I wish every Medical Clinic had
- 01:11:23neurofeedback it is such a nice simple
- 01:11:26way of just helping you to smooth out
- 01:11:30your brain functioning yeah I like you
- 01:11:33I'm a fan of people healing with others
- 01:11:36in real life you know I get it there's a
- 01:11:39lot of Great Tech out there to help but
- 01:11:41I think we've got to be not too reliant
- 01:11:43on that web hustle make sure we're
- 01:11:45experiencing things in the real world
- 01:11:46but there are some apps I think now
- 01:11:49where they help with things like
- 01:11:51coherent breathing and you can you know
- 01:11:54they can help you harmonize various
- 01:11:56parts of your body and your brain
- 01:11:58through different methods so I think
- 01:12:01technology is going to potentially
- 01:12:02revolutionize this have you experienced
- 01:12:04that as well have you come across apps
- 01:12:06like that oh absolutely and I know those
- 01:12:09apps and actually have those apps on my
- 01:12:10phone
- 01:12:11well I'm also impressed with is how I
- 01:12:15don't use them
- 01:12:16even though
- 01:12:18I know how helpful they could be and
- 01:12:21sometimes I do get a little unfocused or
- 01:12:24whatever and I know and but I'm
- 01:12:27impressed with is that if a feds of my
- 01:12:29Cosby are you going to come to this
- 01:12:31class or you're going to go for a walk
- 01:12:32then that's rewarding enough for me and
- 01:12:35I will actually do it but apps in and of
- 01:12:39themselves
- 01:12:40most people just don't love their
- 01:12:42absence to say let me just as I said
- 01:12:45it's an interpersonal process it's still
- 01:12:49very rewarding yeah so so doing it in a
- 01:12:53group of people who say where were you
- 01:12:55last night when we did this uh uh that's
- 01:12:59who we are assuming yeah do you know
- 01:13:01what's really interesting Dr Savannah
- 01:13:02Cook is if I
- 01:13:04this is not relating to trauma at all
- 01:13:06but a few months ago
- 01:13:08I spoke to this chap called Elliot
- 01:13:10kipchogee on this podcast the Kenyan
- 01:13:14marathon runner the only person to have
- 01:13:16ever run under two hours in a marathon
- 01:13:18he's considered the fastest marathon
- 01:13:20runner of all time and you know it was a
- 01:13:23beautiful conversation with him about
- 01:13:24all kinds of things and one thing he
- 01:13:27said well many things but one particular
- 01:13:29thing really struck me he never trains
- 01:13:33alone ever he never goes to a run alone
- 01:13:36whereas in the west we often run alone
- 01:13:38where you know we do it to de-stress or
- 01:13:40unwind by ourselves he goes no no we
- 01:13:42always run together and he says if
- 01:13:44you're you know if you're not showing up
- 01:13:46or your motivation's not there for a few
- 01:13:47days one of your buddies is going to be
- 01:13:49on the phone and say hey Elliot where
- 01:13:51are you what's going on is everything
- 01:13:52okay and it really struck me how much
- 01:13:54culture plays a role here I thought wow
- 01:13:57this incredible athlete the fastest
- 01:14:01marathon runner on the planet never goes
- 01:14:04for a run by himself it's always in a
- 01:14:06group yeah
- 01:14:08and I think that's who we are you know
- 01:14:11uh I I just uh uh was lucky enough to go
- 01:14:16on a to the Serengeti Plains I got to
- 01:14:18see all these animals yeah they're all
- 01:14:20living groups you know mammals live in
- 01:14:22groups human beings live in groups yeah
- 01:14:24that's how we Define ourselves as our
- 01:14:27identities our reward system and you
- 01:14:30know there may be people out there who
- 01:14:32just love their little apps but they
- 01:14:35don't know many of them they're
- 01:14:37absolutely quite wonderful yeah but I
- 01:14:40guess you wouldn't know them because
- 01:14:41they're at home on their apps so you
- 01:14:43wouldn't be interacting with them
- 01:14:44potentially but I I think it's a very
- 01:14:46very important point we must just
- 01:14:48briefly touch on psychedelics you
- 01:14:50mentioned group psychedelic therapy and
- 01:14:52of course psychedelics are getting a lot
- 01:14:54of media they're all the rage
- 01:14:57um they're still illegal of course in
- 01:14:59many countries I have to say that
- 01:15:02um where do you stand at the moment on
- 01:15:04the use of certain psychedelics as a
- 01:15:08treatment or as part of the treatment
- 01:15:10for people suffering from trauma or
- 01:15:12other mental health issues you know what
- 01:15:14where does what does the evidence say at
- 01:15:16the moment and who do you think it might
- 01:15:17be useful for and who should be cautious
- 01:15:19would you say so luckily this is not
- 01:15:22just an issue of opinion my lab actually
- 01:15:25does psychedelic studies and I'm really
- 01:15:28very happy to be part of this
- 01:15:30burgundy thing and we do be a part of
- 01:15:33the studies and uh one of my papers will
- 01:15:37come out of it specifically about what
- 01:15:39circular can do all the basic research
- 01:15:41and uh so uh
- 01:15:44I have a license to give MDMA actually
- 01:15:47to people and part of a larger study
- 01:15:50that's almost done uh and so I have good
- 01:15:54data and the only psychedelic like
- 01:15:58substance that's legal in America right
- 01:15:59now is ketamine and I'm involved in
- 01:16:02training people in ketamine assistance
- 01:16:05Psychotherapy oh so I know ketamine
- 01:16:07quite well I know MDMA quite well I
- 01:16:10don't know psilocybin from a research or
- 01:16:12personal experience well but we all talk
- 01:16:15to each other and I see the beautiful
- 01:16:16work that's been done started at Johns
- 01:16:19Hopkins
- 01:16:20um and let me give you an example A
- 01:16:24friend of mine
- 01:16:26who is a very major person in trauma
- 01:16:29field and the person who we are deeply
- 01:16:31love has developed severe cancer eight
- 01:16:34years ago and he was angry bitter as one
- 01:16:37could would be but he had the diagnosis
- 01:16:40he joined the psilocybin study at uh at
- 01:16:44Hopkins and
- 01:16:47I visit him and he said he started to
- 01:16:50cry he said it's an amazing experience
- 01:16:52my friend doesn't have a mystical bone
- 01:16:54in his body and he said I was blasted in
- 01:16:58the universe and I had these visions of
- 01:17:01little villages with smoke coming out of
- 01:17:03these chimneys and all my ancestors were
- 01:17:06there and they were waving at me and
- 01:17:08said hi yes could you join us we oh
- 01:17:12we're all here and we all die and it's
- 01:17:15part of life and my friend had this
- 01:17:17mystical experience and he accepted his
- 01:17:20death
- 01:17:21except he's still alive eight years
- 01:17:23after we all thought he was going to die
- 01:17:25which really makes me very intrigued we
- 01:17:28really should study whether the
- 01:17:30psychedelics changed the immune system
- 01:17:32to actually change some of the bodily
- 01:17:35stuff this is an interesting issue but
- 01:17:37if it happened to my friend Frank was a
- 01:17:39very important inspiration for me to
- 01:17:41look at how psychedelics can be helpful
- 01:17:44and one of the reasons I got intrigued
- 01:17:47with it is of course I'm from the 60s
- 01:17:51generation I I had good experience with
- 01:17:54the LSD when I was a young man and then
- 01:17:56it became all straight and have done it
- 01:17:58for a long time
- 01:17:59but I do remember from taking LSD back
- 01:18:02then is how it opens up your minds and
- 01:18:06makes you aware of that the reality that
- 01:18:09I've constructed for myself is just a
- 01:18:11very small part of the overall reality
- 01:18:14that surround us and you become really
- 01:18:16aware of that your reality is your own
- 01:18:20personal Construction
- 01:18:21and by having this academic experience
- 01:18:23you see that the universe is much larger
- 01:18:26than the universe that you have that you
- 01:18:29actually live in and that's actually
- 01:18:31what we see when people do psychedelic
- 01:18:34therapy is their mind becomes open to
- 01:18:36new possibility to become more curious
- 01:18:39about exploring new things
- 01:18:42I have a number of friends who are very
- 01:18:46famous scientists and I've asked all of
- 01:18:48them they're all about my age I said did
- 01:18:51you take our thing in college also I
- 01:18:53said yeah of course I did I said how do
- 01:18:55you think it affected your career and
- 01:18:58every one of them says you know I think
- 01:19:00I became a good scientist because the
- 01:19:03psychedelics made me realize that the
- 01:19:06reality that we have defined for
- 01:19:07ourselves is just a small part of butter
- 01:19:10is and it's making a more open-minded
- 01:19:13and curious person yeah and that's very
- 01:19:16much of a PC in our secondary treatments
- 01:19:19and people oftentimes go into their
- 01:19:21Obama and it's no picnic it's actually
- 01:19:24can be very painful and people may lie
- 01:19:27there and cry and say oh my God oh my
- 01:19:30God but it opens them up to actually see
- 01:19:34themselves and to visit themselves and
- 01:19:37what our research shows uh will come out
- 01:19:41before too long is that the secretaries
- 01:19:44lead to a dramatic increase in
- 01:19:46self-compassion
- 01:19:48other people really feel for themselves
- 01:19:51and have a feeling of compassion for
- 01:19:54themselves it also makes people much
- 01:19:56more aware of who they are it also makes
- 01:20:00people more aware of how who other
- 01:20:02people are so they're much better able
- 01:20:04to negotiate interpersonal conflicts and
- 01:20:07interpersonal relationships because they
- 01:20:09really get exposed through a larger
- 01:20:13reality than they ordinarily are locked
- 01:20:15into so for a person who has suffered
- 01:20:18trauma
- 01:20:20when they go through a psychedelic
- 01:20:23experience let's say in your lab or in
- 01:20:25your studies you know
- 01:20:28it opens up their minds they see what
- 01:20:32that the story they've constructed is is
- 01:20:34just one story there are multiple other
- 01:20:37stories they could construct around
- 01:20:39Dimensions also that visiting your
- 01:20:42trauma I guess you're always stuck
- 01:20:44because your body keeps a square and the
- 01:20:46moment you go back there you feel that
- 01:20:48agitation you feel that Terror and you
- 01:20:50want to get away from it as fast as you
- 01:20:52can and there's something about
- 01:20:54both suicide and ketamine and MDMA
- 01:20:58because we have seen it in all three the
- 01:21:00large people to go to these dark places
- 01:21:01and to not get engulfed by it to not get
- 01:21:06hijacked by it and to plunge into a
- 01:21:09dramatic state but to also get a few
- 01:21:12different dimensions and to understand
- 01:21:14things in a different way yeah yeah and
- 01:21:16that self-compassion piece you mentioned
- 01:21:18of course very very important for any
- 01:21:20healing is if you come out of that
- 01:21:22feeling more compassion for yourself
- 01:21:24less shame less guilt and of course
- 01:21:26that's going to help in anything further
- 01:21:28that you do are there any
- 01:21:31downsides you know as these things
- 01:21:33become more and more
- 01:21:35um in the mainstream and people talk
- 01:21:38about them and you know more and more
- 01:21:40people are trying psychedelics and of
- 01:21:42course there's plenty of good research
- 01:21:43showing how helpful it can be can it be
- 01:21:46harmful for some people you know I'm so
- 01:21:48glad you bring this up I tell my
- 01:21:50colleagues we're in the honeymoon phase
- 01:21:53and so I have a team of people who I had
- 01:21:5520 30 years younger than I am and they
- 01:21:58say we're part of the Revolution and I
- 01:22:00say to them you're part of the second
- 01:22:02revolution because I was I had Timothy
- 01:22:05Leary's old office at Harvard at some
- 01:22:07point wow there was a tail end of that
- 01:22:10last Revolution
- 01:22:11and the death Revolution collapsed in
- 01:22:14part because of politics but also in
- 01:22:16part because people got way too careless
- 01:22:18and uh it really got out of control and
- 01:22:23I'm really afraid these things will get
- 01:22:24out of control again these are very very
- 01:22:27powerful substances the way we do our
- 01:22:29study is extraordinarily careful we get
- 01:22:32to know people really well they have two
- 01:22:35therapists who are with them the whole
- 01:22:37time uh set and setting is everything uh
- 01:22:40we have relationships with the people
- 01:22:42who who we treat and they feel safe with
- 01:22:45us and so right now in our study we just
- 01:22:49opened up the second study uh first one
- 01:22:52I was 891 people the last one is 103
- 01:22:56people and again we have no significant
- 01:22:59side effects but we have no significant
- 01:23:01side effects because we pay so much
- 01:23:04attention to certain setting and what
- 01:23:06you see already as as there's money at
- 01:23:09the end our Hills you can go to academy
- 01:23:12infusion Clinic where you go to little
- 01:23:14cubicle get the infusion and nobody is
- 01:23:17there with you and you can bring a panic
- 01:23:19battle button if you become really upset
- 01:23:21that horrifies me yeah because blowing
- 01:23:25your mind is a potentially very
- 01:23:28dangerous thing and and very painful and
- 01:23:31horrible things can become manifested
- 01:23:33and you need to really create a very
- 01:23:37careful container for it yeah okay thank
- 01:23:40you I'm worried it will blow up again
- 01:23:42yeah yeah I just would love to
- 01:23:46um
- 01:23:48just think about
- 01:23:50what can trauma teach us as members of
- 01:23:55the society because you said something
- 01:23:58very profound once victims are members
- 01:24:01of society whose problems represent the
- 01:24:04memory of suffering rage and pain in a
- 01:24:08world that longs to forget
- 01:24:11you know when you quoted me I always go
- 01:24:13like I wish I'd written that it's so
- 01:24:15good and then in terms I've written like
- 01:24:18yeah I mean they're your words and I
- 01:24:21think they are so profound because look
- 01:24:24let's be really clear trauma traumatic
- 01:24:27experience is a horrible they're causing
- 01:24:28all kinds of problems to people
- 01:24:30hopefully the conversation we've had the
- 01:24:32work you are doing is going to help
- 01:24:34people first of all become aware of that
- 01:24:36and then start to make changes maybe
- 01:24:39some of the modalities we've already
- 01:24:40spoken about but
- 01:24:43I do wonder what can we as a society
- 01:24:46learn from trauma traumatic you know
- 01:24:48traumatized individuals
- 01:24:50you know is there any upside is there
- 01:24:52anything that you know for a society is
- 01:24:54that
- 01:24:55I've got a very sensitive how I say this
- 01:24:57but I'm I'm just saying every every bit
- 01:25:00of adversity in life tends to have an
- 01:25:02upside at some point whether we're ready
- 01:25:04to see it or not and I just wonder with
- 01:25:07all your experience
- 01:25:09are there any upsides and what can we
- 01:25:11learn as a society from looking at
- 01:25:15people suffering from trauma I think I
- 01:25:18think the big message is people
- 01:25:20generally do the best they can yeah
- 01:25:23and that's very important and so one of
- 01:25:26the things that's very gratifying about
- 01:25:28work that I do I see a lot of people who
- 01:25:31have gone through experiences that I
- 01:25:33cannot imagine having been able to
- 01:25:35survive and you see what people have
- 01:25:37done to survive and they may have done
- 01:25:40weird things like become addicted to
- 01:25:42heroin in order to survive but it does
- 01:25:44their way of survival and so I think but
- 01:25:47trauma really teaches us is that people
- 01:25:49do the best they can to survive and that
- 01:25:53being punitive and nasty to people who
- 01:25:57do things that you don't like it's
- 01:25:59probably not the best way to help them
- 01:26:01and that you need to really it's very
- 01:26:04important that that people do get
- 01:26:07traumatized if you yell at them if you
- 01:26:09screen them if you uh put them in
- 01:26:11seclusion and to become aware of the
- 01:26:15potential damage we can do to each other
- 01:26:17but also how being heard and being in
- 01:26:20connection with people is terribly
- 01:26:23important for all of us at every stage
- 01:26:25of our lives and that uh that that to
- 01:26:29honor people's reality also
- 01:26:31I think many of us are familiar with
- 01:26:34certain pieces of art or songs or some
- 01:26:38just quite beautiful pieces of music
- 01:26:42that have come
- 01:26:43from trauma so yes that individual has
- 01:26:46had extreme pain and suffering but what
- 01:26:49has come out of that has brought
- 01:26:53such joy to so many people uh I I don't
- 01:26:57know I I again I I'm very cautious as I
- 01:27:00say that because I don't want to at all
- 01:27:02come across as someone who is
- 01:27:03undermining how painful those
- 01:27:06experiences are
- 01:27:08I'm just trying to maybe at the end of
- 01:27:10this conversation leave a slightly
- 01:27:11uplifting uh sort of tone there
- 01:27:14yeah
- 01:27:15you know there's not a scientific
- 01:27:16statement but I think most really truly
- 01:27:20Innovative things in our world are are
- 01:27:23discovered by traumatized people because
- 01:27:26they live in the world that's unbearable
- 01:27:28and so they have no choice but to fight
- 01:27:31new ways of coping with things that is
- 01:27:34different from where you live because if
- 01:27:36they would say keep doing the same thing
- 01:27:38uh they would die a great example is
- 01:27:43Isaac Newton
- 01:27:44uh the greatest physicist who ever lived
- 01:27:47uh and the uv's biography this guy had
- 01:27:51the worst possible childhood
- 01:27:53and so he hid himself into mathematics
- 01:27:57and physics and that was his safe place
- 01:28:00that allowed him to create things uh JK
- 01:28:04Rowling the author of uh Harry Potter uh
- 01:28:08she was a very traumatized person who I
- 01:28:12I wrote Don't details I've never met her
- 01:28:14but she was a very messed up trying to
- 01:28:17test person until she started to put it
- 01:28:19together in these Harry Potter stories
- 01:28:21that actually come from the visions of A
- 01:28:24time test person and she gave this
- 01:28:27unbelievable gift to the whole world of
- 01:28:29people to him to be able to imagine uh
- 01:28:32new possibilities and you see this over
- 01:28:35and over again and part of the of the
- 01:28:38pleasure of my job is when I really get
- 01:28:40to know people I get to see how they
- 01:28:43have found their particular ways of
- 01:28:45surviving uh they don't all become like
- 01:28:48Isaac Newton or JK Rowling you know it's
- 01:28:52still an exceptional Talent becomes but
- 01:28:55uh the termites people have new ways of
- 01:28:59pointing things out to us we can learn
- 01:29:01from them
- 01:29:03Dr Monica you are doing a great service
- 01:29:05to the world all your work the book
- 01:29:07literally is such a phenomenal read I
- 01:29:10can see why it keeps selling gear on
- 01:29:13year and it keeps spreading through Word
- 01:29:15of Mouth
- 01:29:16it's absolutely incredible thank you for
- 01:29:17making time thank you just you know
- 01:29:20yourself also I'm really impressed with
- 01:29:22the depth of the questions you asked me
- 01:29:24I really really liked it a lot yeah oh
- 01:29:26thank you I appreciate that just just
- 01:29:27very very finely
- 01:29:29um
- 01:29:32for anyone who's listening right now
- 01:29:35or he's watching
- 01:29:36who feels stuck in their life who feels
- 01:29:40the way that they are right now is the
- 01:29:42way that they have to stay the way they
- 01:29:44have to remain
- 01:29:46and they feel no hope no possibilities
- 01:29:49for the future
- 01:29:51what would you say to them
- 01:29:57I would talk about
- 01:30:00might be available
- 01:30:02have you tried yoga have you ever seen a
- 01:30:05choir and in family I always take very
- 01:30:07careful histories about when these
- 01:30:10things work for you what were you doing
- 01:30:12but you did not feel this way what's the
- 01:30:14relationships were you in and I tried to
- 01:30:17help people to not only remember the
- 01:30:20horrors of the past but also that kid a
- 01:30:23long time ago who was able to do this
- 01:30:25and who coped somehow and to really
- 01:30:28revisit yourself as a Survivor to see
- 01:30:32what has birth to him what hasn't worked
- 01:30:34what gave you a glimber of Hope and then
- 01:30:36to look around in your environment uh
- 01:30:39would sing in a choir work we're doing
- 01:30:41martial arts work we'd go to yoga studio
- 01:30:43work to really look at what it is in
- 01:30:47your culture that might help your body
- 01:30:50to feel uh at home or safe or a feeling
- 01:30:56of pleasure and engagement
- 01:30:59that's around the code that's the coming
- 01:31:00on the show
- 01:31:02thank you very much it's a pleasure if
- 01:31:05you enjoyed that conversation I think
- 01:31:06you are really going to enjoy this one
- 01:31:08all about addiction trauma and why so
- 01:31:11many of us feel lost addiction is the
- 01:31:13most human thing there is all addictions
- 01:31:15the attempts to gain pain relief
- 01:31:17emotional pain relief or something or
- 01:31:19another then this whole society is so
- 01:31:21expert at selling us stuff to fill those
- 01:31:24holes temporarily this is the whole
- 01:31:26ethic of this culture
- trauma
- healing
- EMDR
- neurofeedback
- yoga
- psychedelics
- theater
- emotional health
- social connection
- chronic illness