Dave Snowden and friends - Organizational Design - Part 1

00:59:17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKALuME8E9g

摘要

TLDRIn a panel discussion featuring experts like Andrew Blaine, Nigel Thurlow, Jay Blum, and others, the conversation delves into the complexities of organizational design. The group, coming from diverse fields such as organizational psychology, computer science, and socio-technical systems, explores how concepts like agility, lean, and flow systems can redefine organizational structures. They discuss the role of scaffolding, informal networks, and adaptive hierarchies in promoting flexibility and innovation. Additionally, the conversation highlights the challenges of transforming organizational mindsets, addressing rigid hierarchies, and adapting to changing environments. Ideas from books like 'Team Topologies' are brought into the discussion, illustrating modern approaches to facilitating fast-flow change and organizational evolution. This dialogue covers the balance between structure and flexibility, emphasizing the need for organizations to be dynamic and adaptable.

心得

  • 🎯 Focus on organizational design for agility and flexibility.
  • 🔄 Embrace complexity and system dynamics in transformations.
  • 🧩 Integrate socio-technical perspectives for sustainable change.
  • 📚 Leverage concepts from 'Team Topologies' for modern organizational structures.
  • 🌐 Understand the importance of informal networks in fostering innovation.
  • 🔧 Use scaffolding to support the dynamic evolution of teams.
  • ⚖️ Balance hierarchical structures with adaptability and fluidity.
  • 🚀 Emphasize fast-flow change to keep pace with modern demands.
  • 🔎 Highlight challenges in shifting organizational mindsets and behaviors.
  • 🤝 Encourage collaboration across boundaries for holistic development.

时间轴

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The group initiates a discussion on organizational design sparked by previous engagements on social media. Andrew Blaine introduces himself and his background in agility and organizational design, setting the stage for others to introduce their expertise in the field.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Nigel Thurlow introduces his work with the Flow Consortium and his views on lean and agile transformations. He touches on the importance of distributed leadership in organizational design, expressing his interest in the ongoing conversation.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Jay Blum discusses his role at Red Hat and his academic pursuits at Carnegie Mellon. He focuses on how socio-technical systems transform and highlights his interest in sustainable living and the role of design.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Sonya Bluthner shares her experience with complexity theory and organizational psychology. She emphasizes seeing organizations as flow systems and is intrigued by system psychodynamics and the impact of design on organizational structure.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Matthew Skelton introduces the book 'Team Topologies' and its focus on the structure of organizations to enable change. He emphasizes the need for evolution within organizations rather than static designs.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Manuel Pais, co-author of 'Team Topologies,' explains the significance of team interactions and the need for organizations to adapt their structures over time to remove bottlenecks and facilitate flow.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Dave Snowden talks about the importance of informal networks as scaffolding within organizations. He emphasizes the role of informal networks in innovation and learning and the danger of over-structuring organizations.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Jay Blum and Dave Snowden delve into the concept of scaffolding in organizations, highlighting the difference between ephemeral, plastic, and permanent design structures in fostering organizational adaptability.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    The discussion involves translating scaffolding concepts into business examples, touching on the balance between temporary measures and permanent structures to support organizational adaptability and innovation.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Manuel Pais and Matthew Skelton elaborate on team topologies and the importance of appropriate team interactions in organizational structures. They emphasize service, collaboration, and facilitation as key ways for teams to interact.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:59:17

    The conversation wraps up with discussions on leadership behaviors, informal networks, and system dynamics, suggesting how these elements can modify organizational design and decision-making processes for better adaptability.

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思维导图

视频问答

  • What is the main topic of discussion in the video?

    The main topic is organizational design and the transformations within the space, including ideas around agility, lean, and flow systems.

  • Who are the main participants in the discussion?

    Participants include Andrew Blaine, Nigel Thurlow, Jay Blum, Sonya Bluthner, Matthew Skelton, Manuel Pais, and other experts in organizational design.

  • What fields do the participants come from?

    Participants come from various fields such as organizational psychology, meteorology, computer science, and socio-technical systems.

  • What concept does Dave Snowden introduce related to organizations?

    Dave Snowden discusses scaffolding, informal networks, and symbiosis as essential elements in organizational design.

  • What book did Matthew Skelton co-author?

    Matthew Skelton co-authored 'Team Topologies', which focuses on organizational structures for flow and change in software delivery.

  • How does the group view the concept of hierarchy?

    The group discusses the need for adaptive hierarchies that allow flexibility and emphasize fluid organizational structures.

  • What are the challenges discussed in implementing new organizational designs?

    The challenges involve entrenched behaviors, rigid hierarchies, and the difficulty in removing non-functional structures or policies.

  • How is scaffolding used in organizations according to the discussion?

    Scaffolding in organizations is seen as temporary structures or frameworks that support the evolution and adaptation of teams and workflows.

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  • 00:00:02
    okay so it looks like we're recording
  • 00:00:05
    yeah we're quite serendipitous that all
  • 00:00:09
    this came together off the back of a few
  • 00:00:12
    tweets a week or two ago got some really
  • 00:00:16
    interesting people on the line and we're
  • 00:00:18
    gonna have a chat about organizational
  • 00:00:20
    design and some of the things that are
  • 00:00:22
    happening in that space that that a few
  • 00:00:24
    of us find interesting I'll introduce
  • 00:00:27
    myself first my name is Andrew Blaine
  • 00:00:29
    I'm from a company called elaborate in
  • 00:00:31
    Australia
  • 00:00:34
    I have interests in agility lean and
  • 00:00:37
    lots of other things I've done a fair
  • 00:00:39
    bit of organ operating model design over
  • 00:00:42
    the last three or four years sometimes
  • 00:00:45
    successfully sometimes not so
  • 00:00:47
    successfully but yeah I am really
  • 00:00:50
    interested in some of the ideas of the
  • 00:00:51
    people in this group and and kind of
  • 00:00:54
    seeing if there's a little bit of shared
  • 00:00:57
    understanding to explore I'll introduce
  • 00:01:00
    Nigel Thurlow oh god yes so my name is
  • 00:01:08
    Nigel I'm the CEO of the flow consortium
  • 00:01:11
    which is really the organization that
  • 00:01:14
    set up to lead thought into the flow
  • 00:01:18
    system which is something I'm like the
  • 00:01:20
    co-creator of which looks heavily an
  • 00:01:22
    organizational design through the eyes
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    of distributed leadership but prior to
  • 00:01:26
    that I've worked for this sort of
  • 00:01:28
    company here and I've had quite a lot of
  • 00:01:30
    involvement with Toyota over the years
  • 00:01:31
    and a lot of different organizations in
  • 00:01:34
    leading so called lean and agile
  • 00:01:36
    transformations which I don't think
  • 00:01:38
    exists but we can discuss that in the
  • 00:01:40
    conversation and and so I've had a
  • 00:01:43
    little bit of a play with organizational
  • 00:01:45
    design over the years and then of course
  • 00:01:47
    now the flow system we sort of propose
  • 00:01:49
    some ideas around organizational design
  • 00:01:52
    so we'll see how this conversation goes
  • 00:01:54
    and since Jade is the next person on my
  • 00:01:56
    screen I'm gonna hand over to the guy
  • 00:01:58
    called Jay oh thank you Nigel
  • 00:02:02
    nice to meet you my name is Jay Blum I
  • 00:02:06
    work at Red Hat in the global
  • 00:02:08
    transformation office when I am not
  • 00:02:12
    working Red Hat I am getting my pH
  • 00:02:14
    at Carnegie Mellon and what I study and
  • 00:02:18
    what I try to apply is how how do socio
  • 00:02:24
    technical systems transition from one
  • 00:02:27
    state to another over extended periods
  • 00:02:29
    of time so projects that I work on or
  • 00:02:33
    projects I think about would be projects
  • 00:02:35
    significant long duration hundreds of
  • 00:02:37
    years duration and that that project is
  • 00:02:42
    is inside of CMU is called transition
  • 00:02:45
    design and it tries to think about how
  • 00:02:48
    we might move towards a more sustainable
  • 00:02:52
    way of living on the planet and what we
  • 00:02:56
    might have to do that get that done and
  • 00:02:58
    then finally how has design including
  • 00:03:02
    things like organizational design and
  • 00:03:04
    service design kind of put us in the the
  • 00:03:08
    place that we are right now in
  • 00:03:09
    relationship to sustainable sustainable
  • 00:03:13
    way of living on the planet and tries to
  • 00:03:15
    redirect the practice of design to
  • 00:03:17
    improve that Sonya thanks Jay my name is
  • 00:03:27
    Sonya bluthner I'm based in South Africa
  • 00:03:31
    kind of wear two hats I am part of
  • 00:03:34
    cognitive age I see Davis is also he's
  • 00:03:37
    joined us and they not also run a small
  • 00:03:40
    consultancy in South Africa called more
  • 00:03:42
    beyond I originally come from the
  • 00:03:45
    natural sciences so I studied
  • 00:03:47
    meteorology and I've been kind of
  • 00:03:51
    playing in the field of organizational
  • 00:03:55
    psychologists I guess in the last almost
  • 00:03:58
    a decade so a lot of the work that I do
  • 00:04:01
    involves introducing early practitioners
  • 00:04:05
    and leaders across the organization to
  • 00:04:08
    complexity theory and helping them kind
  • 00:04:11
    of make sense of the impact of that so
  • 00:04:14
    to join it just talk a little bit about
  • 00:04:17
    what Nigel spoke about as well I've been
  • 00:04:20
    become really interested in the last
  • 00:04:22
    year or two about seeing organizations
  • 00:04:23
    as flow systems and what that means
  • 00:04:28
    in terms of design and I'm also very
  • 00:04:31
    interested in the overlay of complexity
  • 00:04:34
    and system psychodynamics I know they
  • 00:04:36
    also look at the world through social
  • 00:04:38
    technical lenses and what that means if
  • 00:04:43
    we start looking at organizations as
  • 00:04:45
    dynamic and not static systems that can
  • 00:04:48
    be designed in a static way so that's a
  • 00:04:50
    little bit of from my side Matthew hi
  • 00:04:57
    thank you hi I'm Matthew Skelton I'm the
  • 00:04:59
    co-author of this book here team
  • 00:05:02
    topologies which was published in
  • 00:05:05
    September 2019
  • 00:05:06
    IT revolution the home of books like
  • 00:05:07
    DevOps handbook and accelerate and so on
  • 00:05:11
    and with me on the call is is Manuel
  • 00:05:16
    place who's the co-author so we've we
  • 00:05:19
    pulled together some ideas based on our
  • 00:05:22
    experience based on some quite extensive
  • 00:05:24
    research and some case studies looking
  • 00:05:28
    at the ways in which organizations are
  • 00:05:30
    have been setting themselves up to
  • 00:05:33
    enable a fast flow of change it
  • 00:05:35
    specifically in the software delivery
  • 00:05:37
    space that's what we know well so we
  • 00:05:40
    kind of restricted the focus of the book
  • 00:05:41
    to that we might maybe talk a little bit
  • 00:05:44
    later about how some organizations are
  • 00:05:47
    actually started to apply the ideas
  • 00:05:48
    outside of outsiders there and so a
  • 00:05:50
    really key really key ideas in the book
  • 00:05:53
    include kind of much better world if
  • 00:05:56
    well better definitions of how different
  • 00:05:59
    parts of the organization can and should
  • 00:06:01
    interact and also making sure that we're
  • 00:06:04
    setting things up so that we're
  • 00:06:05
    expecting evolution we're not trying to
  • 00:06:07
    design a single static template where
  • 00:06:09
    we're setting the expectation that we
  • 00:06:11
    are going to change and therefore making
  • 00:06:14
    sure the organization's are expecting
  • 00:06:16
    that and building that into how they
  • 00:06:20
    think about how they think about the
  • 00:06:24
    kind of relationships between different
  • 00:06:25
    parts of the organization next
  • 00:06:31
    well Manuel you're next on my screen hi
  • 00:06:34
    everyone I'm and well as Matthew
  • 00:06:36
    mentioned I'm co-author of the book in
  • 00:06:38
    typologies yeah my background is in
  • 00:06:41
    computer science for about 20 years and
  • 00:06:44
    just to add to what Matthew said most of
  • 00:06:48
    what's in the book came from our
  • 00:06:50
    experience with clients and there are a
  • 00:06:53
    couple of things that we noticed when
  • 00:06:55
    we're trying to help them well the first
  • 00:06:58
    things typically they expected
  • 00:07:01
    technology and tools to help their teams
  • 00:07:04
    do better but they often were not
  • 00:07:05
    looking as mentioned before it wasn't
  • 00:07:07
    they were not looking at the
  • 00:07:08
    organization as a flow system as the you
  • 00:07:11
    know how's the flow impact different
  • 00:07:13
    teams and now can you improve that so
  • 00:07:14
    often there were issues around how the
  • 00:07:16
    teams were structured how they
  • 00:07:18
    communicate to each other that was those
  • 00:07:21
    were the bottlenecks not the real
  • 00:07:23
    bottlenecks not the this smaller you
  • 00:07:25
    know tools and and going faster at the
  • 00:07:28
    team level and then the other thing that
  • 00:07:31
    mentioned Matthew alluded to is that we
  • 00:07:34
    also saw it for the same organization a
  • 00:07:38
    structure that was working quite okay at
  • 00:07:41
    some point in time could very well in
  • 00:07:44
    you know six months in one year two
  • 00:07:46
    years time be actually already creating
  • 00:07:49
    both bottlenecks to flow again because
  • 00:07:51
    they did not have this tools to think
  • 00:07:53
    about how they need to evolve it just
  • 00:07:55
    okay as people mentioned we've done you
  • 00:07:57
    know agile organization or DevOps
  • 00:08:00
    organization that helped a bit at that
  • 00:08:02
    moment but then in one year's time it
  • 00:08:04
    was not adequate anymore and they were
  • 00:08:06
    not actively thinking about how to
  • 00:08:08
    evolve so I guess the last one is safe
  • 00:08:14
    last but not least the consent
  • 00:08:20
    I created a can every framework 21 years
  • 00:08:24
    ago just discovered it's 21 years old
  • 00:08:26
    it's October which is a bit scary but
  • 00:08:31
    I'm allowed to doubt to get drunk
  • 00:08:32
    several times some yeah bit before it
  • 00:08:35
    reached the legal age or drinking and
  • 00:08:37
    some people have tried to abuse it but
  • 00:08:39
    that's another matter
  • 00:08:41
    I'm currently in terms of the context of
  • 00:08:44
    this discussion developing work we
  • 00:08:47
    originally started with Jade and others
  • 00:08:49
    on the concept of scaffolding
  • 00:08:52
    particularly the way that informal
  • 00:08:54
    networks provide scaffold infrastructure
  • 00:08:56
    organizations so dependent on which
  • 00:08:59
    research you read between 50% and 70% of
  • 00:09:03
    learning in an organization comes from
  • 00:09:05
    informal networks which are never formal
  • 00:09:09
    systems I used to have problems with
  • 00:09:11
    this on IBM because they wanted to make
  • 00:09:12
    the informal formal and I pointed out
  • 00:09:14
    then the energy gradient change right so
  • 00:09:18
    informal networks are rather like the
  • 00:09:20
    fungi that live in soil which act as a
  • 00:09:23
    symbiosis to allow the plants to grow
  • 00:09:25
    but without dense informal networks you
  • 00:09:28
    haven't got the ability for the
  • 00:09:29
    organization to connect in novel or
  • 00:09:31
    unexpected ways everything's been
  • 00:09:33
    designed so one of the big things I'm
  • 00:09:36
    working at the moment is extend in the
  • 00:09:37
    range of methods we already created for
  • 00:09:40
    building and measuring informal network
  • 00:09:42
    density and also for informal network
  • 00:09:46
    learning that includes further enhancing
  • 00:09:49
    the concepts of Cruz which are normally
  • 00:09:52
    in military and civil contingency where
  • 00:09:55
    people occupy roles so you don't have
  • 00:09:57
    teams made up of individuals you have
  • 00:09:59
    teams made up of individuals who are
  • 00:10:02
    trained in roles and the advantage of
  • 00:10:05
    Cruz is they last a very long period of
  • 00:10:07
    time and you can put individuals who've
  • 00:10:09
    never worked together in them and they
  • 00:10:11
    still work and they work instantly so
  • 00:10:14
    one of my ideas there is an organization
  • 00:10:19
    might always need to have a pilot but
  • 00:10:21
    who the pilot is can change so the
  • 00:10:25
    concept of shifting from individual to
  • 00:10:27
    collective leadership needs to be
  • 00:10:28
    rethought and it's not a your gala by
  • 00:10:32
    now I think all the efforts to Train
  • 00:10:34
    individuals are whereas they're not
  • 00:10:36
    wrong they're not going to make a big
  • 00:10:38
    enough difference for me to spend time
  • 00:10:40
    on it
  • 00:10:40
    so changing individuals does not produce
  • 00:10:43
    saying that sustainable scalable change
  • 00:10:45
    yeah also people with natural talent
  • 00:10:48
    will replace them anyway if you look at
  • 00:10:51
    what's happening in political leadership
  • 00:10:52
    in America at the moment
  • 00:10:54
    yeah or the UK the people with a talent
  • 00:10:58
    a more or less exclude you from the
  • 00:10:59
    process so and the danger at the moment
  • 00:11:02
    of disaster capitalism disrupting
  • 00:11:06
    countries worldwide is very high so we
  • 00:11:09
    live in very dangerous times at the
  • 00:11:11
    moment yeah and that's going to impact
  • 00:11:13
    on organizations trying to make for
  • 00:11:17
    example you know try and pretend that
  • 00:11:19
    companies like Amazon or agile I find
  • 00:11:21
    quite hysterical because they're brutal
  • 00:11:24
    dictatorships they're not remotely agile
  • 00:11:26
    all right this is come out retrospective
  • 00:11:29
    coherence so from a complexity point of
  • 00:11:32
    view how things connect is more
  • 00:11:33
    important than what they are what the
  • 00:11:35
    identity structures identity is not the
  • 00:11:38
    same thing as individuals yeah and we
  • 00:11:41
    need systems with very low energy
  • 00:11:44
    gradients because the lower the energy
  • 00:11:46
    gradient the faster the system can learn
  • 00:11:48
    and adjust and the more you put formal
  • 00:11:51
    organizations in the place the more you
  • 00:11:53
    make the energy gradients more costly so
  • 00:11:56
    those are kinda like the areas I'm
  • 00:11:57
    working in excellent so you mentioned
  • 00:12:03
    that you that Jabin yourself and some
  • 00:12:07
    others had started work on scaffolding
  • 00:12:09
    maybe I'll hand over to James for a
  • 00:12:11
    little bit to talk about the origins of
  • 00:12:14
    that concept and what meaning it has to
  • 00:12:17
    you well I think Dave and I have worked
  • 00:12:23
    in different ways on this topic and I'll
  • 00:12:25
    let Dave talk for himself he started
  • 00:12:29
    some of that discussion with Murray
  • 00:12:32
    Milton yeah sorry--but myself before so
  • 00:12:41
    we some of that conversation I think
  • 00:12:44
    started about two and a half years ago
  • 00:12:45
    at a retreat that and I cannot cognitive
  • 00:12:49
    edge retreat and Emery pendleton was
  • 00:12:52
    involved in those conversations I think
  • 00:12:55
    kind of understanding scaffolding for me
  • 00:12:59
    is partially about kind of understanding
  • 00:13:01
    the way in which
  • 00:13:06
    I had a talk I did a while ago about the
  • 00:13:09
    difference between stability plasticity
  • 00:13:12
    and ephemerality of design interventions
  • 00:13:15
    so that the idea being that designers
  • 00:13:18
    really needed to think about what they
  • 00:13:22
    were trying to do temporally like is the
  • 00:13:26
    thing I'm about to put into the world
  • 00:13:28
    right now supposed to be permanent
  • 00:13:30
    supposed to be stable over a long period
  • 00:13:31
    of time is it supposed to be plastic
  • 00:13:34
    capable of like bending and shaping
  • 00:13:37
    itself to the environment so kind of
  • 00:13:41
    you'd want to be thinking about like
  • 00:13:43
    blank brain plasticity if you heard that
  • 00:13:46
    word at this point or ephemeral I'm
  • 00:13:49
    making this intervention but it's
  • 00:13:50
    actually designed in a way that it's not
  • 00:13:52
    meant to last it's meant to push
  • 00:13:54
    something or knock something over
  • 00:13:56
    and then in itself is not valuable after
  • 00:13:59
    that kind of interventional moment right
  • 00:14:02
    and so those to me were in my mind were
  • 00:14:04
    the kind of the original versions of my
  • 00:14:08
    ideas of scaffolding of what I was
  • 00:14:10
    interested in and became the
  • 00:14:12
    conversation about scaffolding because
  • 00:14:15
    it's trying to point out that not all
  • 00:14:18
    design interventions are valuable as a
  • 00:14:23
    permanent thing
  • 00:14:25
    or as is conceived of being it's
  • 00:14:26
    permanent and even worse some
  • 00:14:29
    interventions if you over invest in them
  • 00:14:33
    you if you take something that you could
  • 00:14:35
    have done ephemerally and you make it
  • 00:14:37
    stable it can cause problems instead of
  • 00:14:41
    causing the right answer to come out
  • 00:14:43
    right or causing the intervention to be
  • 00:14:45
    effective and I think you know that if
  • 00:14:48
    you hear Dave's kind of high gradient
  • 00:14:50
    low gradient energy stuff that's a
  • 00:14:53
    little bit what I'm pointing out as well
  • 00:14:54
    right like if you over invest in a
  • 00:14:57
    particular intervention and you over
  • 00:14:59
    stabilize it then when it's no longer
  • 00:15:01
    valuable you have to figure out how to
  • 00:15:03
    take it down you have to take out figure
  • 00:15:06
    out how to remove it and you know just
  • 00:15:08
    from a very simple observation about
  • 00:15:11
    most organizations it's easier to create
  • 00:15:16
    an intervention to
  • 00:15:17
    create something in an organization than
  • 00:15:19
    it is to remove it from the organization
  • 00:15:21
    it's very difficult in a lot of
  • 00:15:23
    organizations to remove policies to
  • 00:15:25
    remove rules and to remove structures so
  • 00:15:29
    it's easier to go one way then there is
  • 00:15:32
    to go the other way so just it's
  • 00:15:33
    thinking through these interventions in
  • 00:15:35
    that way is part of what I am interested
  • 00:15:37
    in in as far as expanding the discourse
  • 00:15:40
    about what design does and how it works
  • 00:15:43
    I think we did this over three seperate
  • 00:15:48
    retreats the one English the word joke
  • 00:15:50
    was that then we went on in Snowdonia
  • 00:15:51
    without and developed the whole typology
  • 00:15:53
    of constraints and that's gone on for
  • 00:15:56
    the development since me constraints was
  • 00:15:58
    the missing component in complexity
  • 00:16:01
    management a minute and after there were
  • 00:16:04
    two big things which happened this year
  • 00:16:05
    one is sorting out scaffolding the other
  • 00:16:07
    was sorting out the operatic confused
  • 00:16:09
    part canarian and now from my point of
  • 00:16:12
    view is all coherent enough we can put
  • 00:16:13
    it together it wasn't really before they
  • 00:16:15
    were kinda like inconsistencies as my
  • 00:16:18
    family said about quantum entanglement
  • 00:16:21
    there are too many inconsistencies to
  • 00:16:23
    publish yet all right that's overcome
  • 00:16:25
    for me scaffolding is the only thing
  • 00:16:30
    that you can create a degree of
  • 00:16:31
    permanence around but there's a
  • 00:16:33
    scaffolding could also be temporary so
  • 00:16:35
    bamboo scaffolding for example can be
  • 00:16:38
    put apart and put back together again
  • 00:16:39
    very quickly whereas but has a high
  • 00:16:42
    training overhead whereas steel scaffold
  • 00:16:44
    in again can be assembled in the
  • 00:16:46
    assemble but is it very flexible
  • 00:16:48
    everything has to follow a certain form
  • 00:16:49
    so that's one kind of distinction but
  • 00:16:52
    then I think what I'm also interested in
  • 00:16:54
    is the whole concept of symbiosis and
  • 00:16:56
    has always been key for me for the last
  • 00:16:58
    30 years all parasites start off the
  • 00:17:02
    symbiosis in bones yeah and part of the
  • 00:17:05
    problem we got with Ebola at the moment
  • 00:17:07
    is it starting to switch from being a
  • 00:17:09
    parasite to Venus in both which means
  • 00:17:12
    it's learning not to feel quite so many
  • 00:17:14
    people and when things learn not to kill
  • 00:17:17
    quite so many people
  • 00:17:21
    when things learn not to kill so many
  • 00:17:24
    people that's when they're dangerous but
  • 00:17:26
    ultimately they've become a symbol so I
  • 00:17:28
    spend a lot of time looking for example
  • 00:17:30
    at Portuguese man-of-war which are a
  • 00:17:33
    fascinating thing I'll never forgive an
  • 00:17:35
    IBM they didn't like the image so they
  • 00:17:37
    made the image from my Center in IBM a
  • 00:17:39
    jellyfish because they thought it looked
  • 00:17:40
    better and that missed the whole point
  • 00:17:42
    right because a Portuguese man-of-war is
  • 00:17:45
    a series of coexisting separate
  • 00:17:47
    identities which have learned to become
  • 00:17:49
    completely codependent yeah
  • 00:17:52
    and that produces something far more
  • 00:17:54
    stable and resilient than a single
  • 00:17:56
    species and the concept of informal that
  • 00:18:00
    was there also what we're working on now
  • 00:18:02
    in organizational design and also in
  • 00:18:04
    software design it's a concept of
  • 00:18:07
    creating scaffolding structures which
  • 00:18:09
    can be entangled around points of
  • 00:18:11
    coherence so used but what people do
  • 00:18:14
    when they design teams is they design
  • 00:18:16
    the end point
  • 00:18:17
    yeah and team topologies has got a great
  • 00:18:20
    summary about it's going on the book
  • 00:18:23
    shop we had bookshelf behind me as
  • 00:18:24
    opposed to the bookshelf to my left
  • 00:18:26
    which is good news or I didn't either I
  • 00:18:28
    intend to refer to it again right but
  • 00:18:31
    what it does it defines endpoints it
  • 00:18:33
    doesn't define starting conditions what
  • 00:18:36
    I think we're doing from a complexity
  • 00:18:37
    point of view is we're saying how much
  • 00:18:39
    can we structure and what's the nature
  • 00:18:41
    of the structure you know what can we
  • 00:18:43
    put in place how can we define how can
  • 00:18:46
    we allow entanglement to be designed not
  • 00:18:49
    accidental and what are the points of
  • 00:18:51
    coherence around which we entangle now
  • 00:18:53
    that's actually the essence of the next
  • 00:18:55
    generation of sense maker but it's also
  • 00:18:57
    the next generation of organizational
  • 00:18:59
    design these are allows context lis
  • 00:19:02
    unique solutions to emerge and adapt
  • 00:19:05
    yeah but based on a coherent whole and
  • 00:19:08
    one of the big things I've just finished
  • 00:19:11
    right in the sort of summary section on
  • 00:19:13
    the you home book on crisis management
  • 00:19:15
    there are two golden lessons there I've
  • 00:19:17
    got to find a third I've only got two
  • 00:19:19
    this is frustrating the hell outta me
  • 00:19:21
    I've gotta find a third right but one is
  • 00:19:23
    you see you coordinating the center you
  • 00:19:25
    don't make decisions in a crisis the
  • 00:19:28
    role of the centuries the core then alot
  • 00:19:30
    these aside because if you make this
  • 00:19:33
    you won't have the cognitive time to do
  • 00:19:35
    the coordination and link and also the
  • 00:19:38
    dangers of hypocrisy of you getting it
  • 00:19:40
    wrong go up so it's a high-risk strategy
  • 00:19:43
    the other one is you actually
  • 00:19:45
    communicate by engagement so you don't
  • 00:19:49
    communicate to people you engage them in
  • 00:19:51
    helping you understand the problem right
  • 00:19:54
    now you and actually scaffolding is the
  • 00:19:57
    third one I think some are bunk from the
  • 00:19:59
    way to phrase it yet you put enough
  • 00:20:01
    structure in place that the thing can
  • 00:20:03
    start to migrate towards a coherent
  • 00:20:06
    pattern which means you can transcend
  • 00:20:08
    the crisis and come out the other side
  • 00:20:10
    but you don't put so much structure in
  • 00:20:12
    place that you're second-guessing the
  • 00:20:14
    solution now because you work that well
  • 00:20:17
    when we come evident to longer so for me
  • 00:20:20
    scaffolding is key and I think I've now
  • 00:20:22
    moved into a fundamental typology which
  • 00:20:24
    is is it an X though or is it an
  • 00:20:27
    endoskeleton that's kind of like the
  • 00:20:29
    fundamental one so an exoskeleton define
  • 00:20:33
    structure and then you can have
  • 00:20:34
    variation within an endoskeleton gives
  • 00:20:37
    stability but then you can get massive
  • 00:20:39
    variation around it so insects have low
  • 00:20:42
    variation mammals have high variation so
  • 00:20:45
    that's one of the distinctions right I
  • 00:20:48
    think the other thing which is key on on
  • 00:20:50
    scaffolding is can it be designed or
  • 00:20:52
    does it have to emerge now that's
  • 00:20:55
    actually quite important so when
  • 00:20:58
    anything done I'm Pendleton Julian
  • 00:21:00
    doesn't listen she took my concept of
  • 00:21:02
    dark constraints and created the idea of
  • 00:21:05
    dark scaffolding and for extreme sports
  • 00:21:08
    so for extreme sports to exist the whole
  • 00:21:11
    body of practice has to emerge over 10
  • 00:21:14
    or 15 years
  • 00:21:15
    it can't be designed all right and there
  • 00:21:18
    are certain types of organizations
  • 00:21:20
    Spotify would be a good example yeah
  • 00:21:23
    we're actually what's what if I did well
  • 00:21:25
    was to put some very simple principles
  • 00:21:27
    in place and allow a pattern to emerge
  • 00:21:29
    and that couldn't have been designed
  • 00:21:31
    upfront in fact they wouldn't have the
  • 00:21:33
    strength if they didn't and that will
  • 00:21:35
    only worked in a Swedish culture in work
  • 00:21:37
    in New York all right so this concept of
  • 00:21:40
    what scaffolding does is it allows you
  • 00:21:43
    to provide a context free structure in
  • 00:21:47
    the con
  • 00:21:47
    tech specific world and for me that was
  • 00:21:51
    mindful one more one more comment based
  • 00:21:56
    on what they've said to me one of the
  • 00:21:59
    important things about what we're what
  • 00:22:01
    we're moving into or we're trying to
  • 00:22:03
    achieve with kind of new new forms of
  • 00:22:07
    organizational design adopting the kind
  • 00:22:10
    of biological metaphors that that Dave
  • 00:22:13
    just used is the move from viewing teams
  • 00:22:17
    as autopoietic to viewing teams is
  • 00:22:20
    symbiotic and the difference here is
  • 00:22:24
    right autopoietic conceptions of kind of
  • 00:22:29
    self-organization have to do with the
  • 00:22:32
    way in which a team would be viewed as
  • 00:22:34
    emerging from a construct or a structure
  • 00:22:36
    as an individual thing that's not
  • 00:22:39
    reacting to the other things emerging
  • 00:22:41
    from the structure is just like the
  • 00:22:43
    structure is meant to make a team happen
  • 00:22:46
    specific things happen yeah ah no
  • 00:22:48
    politically they can self organize
  • 00:22:50
    within constraints but they're closed to
  • 00:22:52
    be only self-organizing with in relation
  • 00:22:56
    to the structure or the strategy of the
  • 00:22:58
    organization right symbiotic theory of
  • 00:23:02
    organizational design which say yes that
  • 00:23:04
    is happening but also the teams need to
  • 00:23:07
    be reacting to each other and evolving
  • 00:23:10
    in ways that support and Co support
  • 00:23:13
    themselves so that this move from
  • 00:23:15
    autopoietic to simple annek is a move
  • 00:23:18
    towards a flow based system where teams
  • 00:23:21
    can reorganize not only around the
  • 00:23:23
    strategy and underlying structure but in
  • 00:23:27
    relation to themselves so that they have
  • 00:23:29
    these dynamics of kind of linearity
  • 00:23:32
    across or flow across control
  • 00:23:39
    kayakers on a stream they build little
  • 00:23:41
    stone walls out into the stream that
  • 00:23:44
    they can rest behind before they go at
  • 00:23:45
    the next stage and I think that that's a
  • 00:23:48
    good that's another good example of
  • 00:23:50
    scaffold you know I've been building
  • 00:23:51
    that yeah so you want the excitement of
  • 00:23:53
    the torrent that you don't want it all
  • 00:23:55
    the time yeah and and that that's and
  • 00:23:59
    that's one of the things and sim
  • 00:24:00
    works probably like that it has stable
  • 00:24:03
    and unstable elements in the way it
  • 00:24:05
    works great Kevin it's why varela and
  • 00:24:07
    Morrell match our and rather fell out I
  • 00:24:10
    think yeah over this he thought apart it
  • 00:24:14
    was always a sort of theoretical
  • 00:24:16
    construct rather than observe reality
  • 00:24:18
    and I think the flow element is where
  • 00:24:21
    they fell out
  • 00:24:25
    so this will be asked a question let's
  • 00:24:27
    translate that into simple examples for
  • 00:24:30
    business because scaffolding is a thing
  • 00:24:31
    I've been learning a lot more about sits
  • 00:24:33
    daven introduced it to me I mean he
  • 00:24:37
    mentioned about central coordination
  • 00:24:39
    distributed decision-making which is the
  • 00:24:42
    constructive distributed leadership and
  • 00:24:44
    all the things that jag was saying about
  • 00:24:46
    teams I fully support and agree with and
  • 00:24:48
    and I also sort of see scaffolding as a
  • 00:24:52
    temporary measure or cut or some sort of
  • 00:24:56
    enabling constraint that comes in that
  • 00:24:58
    can be imposed but also very much so
  • 00:25:02
    it's like agility and various other
  • 00:25:04
    things like learning mistakes or emerges
  • 00:25:07
    emergent so patterns emerged to support
  • 00:25:11
    an organization all the teams within an
  • 00:25:14
    organization just as we can impose some
  • 00:25:16
    sort of temporary measure to help
  • 00:25:18
    support the organization but I just
  • 00:25:20
    wondered if you've got a sort of a
  • 00:25:22
    concrete sort of business example of
  • 00:25:25
    sort of a piece of scaffolding that may
  • 00:25:27
    be useful for listeners to to understand
  • 00:25:30
    how to I need to qualify what you said
  • 00:25:33
    first because some scaffold and is
  • 00:25:35
    designed to be temporary so yeah is
  • 00:25:38
    designed to allow a permanent form to
  • 00:25:40
    emerge around it yeah and the
  • 00:25:43
    scaffolding remains alright so its form
  • 00:25:45
    changes but it remains that's the
  • 00:25:47
    qualification yeah informal network
  • 00:25:50
    density is an example of scaffolding so
  • 00:25:53
    IBM for example when I studied it over
  • 00:25:55
    sixty four to one ratio between informal
  • 00:25:58
    and formal communities at 64 one then
  • 00:26:02
    that was only the ones using the virtual
  • 00:26:03
    communities now that was IBM strength
  • 00:26:07
    because in an informal network trust is
  • 00:26:11
    automatic whereas in a form
  • 00:26:14
    system Trust is not I know that's that's
  • 00:26:18
    really important to understand right you
  • 00:26:21
    can't create trust in a formal system it
  • 00:26:23
    takes a huge amount of effort whereas in
  • 00:26:26
    formal that works automatically have
  • 00:26:28
    trust because people can you know not
  • 00:26:30
    participate or participate they're also
  • 00:26:33
    not transparent transparency is the
  • 00:26:36
    enemy of innovation and Trust it is the
  • 00:26:40
    transparent we're facing we go massive
  • 00:26:42
    DeLeon in that NHS project a lot which
  • 00:26:44
    is vital but we got five people who are
  • 00:26:48
    worried about transparency so they're
  • 00:26:50
    trying to make other people take
  • 00:26:51
    responsibility for the project because
  • 00:26:53
    they know everything will be visible and
  • 00:26:55
    the CEO can't make a decision because
  • 00:26:57
    everything she does is visible so
  • 00:27:00
    transparency is preventing innovation
  • 00:27:02
    and that's actually very common so
  • 00:27:03
    inform that was our reform scaffolding
  • 00:27:06
    yeah the other thing is the temporary
  • 00:27:08
    manager so I'm gonna give my data
  • 00:27:10
    Sciences example I manage startups and
  • 00:27:13
    close downs so every time we bought a
  • 00:27:16
    company I got all the things the other
  • 00:27:19
    general managers didn't want and I could
  • 00:27:23
    choose to build them or close them
  • 00:27:24
    because actually it's the same skill you
  • 00:27:27
    know closing things as the same as
  • 00:27:28
    building them but the rule was after two
  • 00:27:30
    years I had to hand them over to one of
  • 00:27:32
    the general managers if I build them
  • 00:27:33
    because the skills were different yeah
  • 00:27:36
    so and the other thing is you weren't
  • 00:27:38
    allowed to be a general manager until
  • 00:27:40
    you've done a year in sales a year in
  • 00:27:42
    production a year in support hit your
  • 00:27:44
    targets because you didn't have the
  • 00:27:47
    tacit knowledge to be a general manager
  • 00:27:49
    without that experience and was its
  • 00:27:51
    attorney also because you've done it
  • 00:27:53
    people knew you did it therefore they
  • 00:27:55
    accepted what you did now those are
  • 00:27:57
    examples of highly structured
  • 00:27:59
    scaffolding which actually produce
  • 00:28:03
    unpredictable but manageable results
  • 00:28:05
    yeah you just described the Toyota
  • 00:28:10
    management training that goes off
  • 00:28:13
    because it takes 20 years to become a
  • 00:28:14
    general manager so you just describe
  • 00:28:17
    that that eloquently it was it was three
  • 00:28:20
    years if you were lucky in past that I
  • 00:28:21
    was lucky am i close to contract three
  • 00:28:24
    hours before I was about to fail my
  • 00:28:25
    target
  • 00:28:26
    otherwise I wouldn't have made it right
  • 00:28:28
    and after that I never ever was rude
  • 00:28:30
    about salespeople again because how the
  • 00:28:32
    hell they survived when they can't pay
  • 00:28:35
    the mortgage some of I don't know so
  • 00:28:38
    like I mean an example I might use is is
  • 00:28:41
    an enterprise platform and and there's
  • 00:28:44
    like two ways to think of an enterprise
  • 00:28:45
    platform inside of an organization right
  • 00:28:47
    how did it come to be one is to kind of
  • 00:28:49
    like let's go build it and they will
  • 00:28:51
    come and I think that's a very poor
  • 00:28:54
    example of scaffolding right that's not
  • 00:28:56
    it's the opposite of what we're talking
  • 00:28:58
    about right like build a big thing and
  • 00:29:00
    then force people to use it right
  • 00:29:02
    instead you could think of it like the
  • 00:29:05
    scaffolding might be a combination of
  • 00:29:08
    like we're gonna create a team in a
  • 00:29:10
    focus area and drive it as an attractor
  • 00:29:13
    as a pole system that's pulling people
  • 00:29:15
    into it right and we're going to try to
  • 00:29:18
    establish the platform by interaction
  • 00:29:21
    with teams that actually have proved the
  • 00:29:24
    value of the components already in the
  • 00:29:26
    field they're actually using it out
  • 00:29:28
    there and the way we're gonna build it
  • 00:29:30
    is we're gonna pull components out of
  • 00:29:31
    these pre-existing pieces we're going to
  • 00:29:34
    start forming a platform that that's
  • 00:29:37
    going to become the scaffold because
  • 00:29:39
    it's enough of a focus area now where
  • 00:29:42
    the teams now don't see the platform as
  • 00:29:44
    some place our code goes to but some
  • 00:29:47
    place that we work together and and it
  • 00:29:50
    becomes a focal area for the teams to
  • 00:29:52
    merge their ideas and their work
  • 00:29:55
    together and becomes a common space of
  • 00:29:58
    collaboration that is now had now been
  • 00:30:01
    scaffolded does that make sense the
  • 00:30:03
    difference between those two value based
  • 00:30:08
    in customer focus so I think that the
  • 00:30:14
    main the the main thing to understand
  • 00:30:17
    right is that it's not a paradox to say
  • 00:30:21
    that we should only develop code for a
  • 00:30:24
    customer and we should also make it
  • 00:30:26
    eventually reusable it's the eventually
  • 00:30:29
    reusable it's not it it has to start by
  • 00:30:34
    being pulled by the customer and then it
  • 00:30:37
    can all of a sudden turn and say other
  • 00:30:39
    team
  • 00:30:40
    can pull the code when they start
  • 00:30:42
    pulling it that's when it becomes a
  • 00:30:43
    platform and the scaffolding is giving a
  • 00:30:46
    place for that activity to occur for
  • 00:30:49
    that pull of the cross team concerns the
  • 00:30:53
    common concerns about data and
  • 00:30:54
    functionality the common concerns about
  • 00:30:57
    effective pattern usage and ways of
  • 00:30:59
    deploying the technology all that needs
  • 00:31:02
    a space to occur in and in a lot of
  • 00:31:04
    organizations there's just nowhere for
  • 00:31:06
    that to happen there's individual teams
  • 00:31:09
    and their central IT there's nowhere for
  • 00:31:12
    common work to occur and that's part of
  • 00:31:16
    the problem and that's why you need
  • 00:31:17
    something like the scaffold just to say
  • 00:31:20
    to people there is a way in which you
  • 00:31:22
    can work together and that happens to be
  • 00:31:25
    this platform I'm gonna buddy him
  • 00:31:31
    quickly because I noticed that Jay
  • 00:31:34
    earlier was talking about I think it was
  • 00:31:37
    it was gonna be for wise the team's need
  • 00:31:39
    to organize and there was strategy
  • 00:31:41
    structure organizing around themselves
  • 00:31:44
    and I'm assuming you were going to talk
  • 00:31:45
    about organizing between teams and the
  • 00:31:48
    integration points between teams I was
  • 00:31:50
    going to get either matter or manner
  • 00:31:53
    well to start talking about those
  • 00:31:55
    integration points and and what they've
  • 00:31:58
    been doing in practice
  • 00:32:05
    thank you so what we define in the team
  • 00:32:11
    topologies book is so we've got some
  • 00:32:15
    different types of TV feel like which is
  • 00:32:17
    just ways of effectively the types of
  • 00:32:20
    team of the team topologies books are
  • 00:32:21
    really about collections of behavior and
  • 00:32:23
    and expectations that's what they really
  • 00:32:26
    are there's some specific stuff that
  • 00:32:29
    relates more to to kind of software
  • 00:32:31
    design and things we're really a team
  • 00:32:33
    type is a set of expected behavior and
  • 00:32:36
    and focus for a good firm for an entity
  • 00:32:40
    as a team as a kind of single single
  • 00:32:42
    entity but because because the magic
  • 00:32:49
    occurs if you like in the interactions
  • 00:32:50
    between parts of a system or parts of an
  • 00:32:53
    ecosystem then we we also took some time
  • 00:32:59
    to characterize different ways in which
  • 00:33:01
    we think the teams inside an
  • 00:33:02
    organization should interact and so
  • 00:33:04
    we've got collaboration so we
  • 00:33:07
    specifically define that as two teams
  • 00:33:09
    working together over a over a defined
  • 00:33:11
    period to achieve a specific outcome so
  • 00:33:14
    it's not just kind of some looser
  • 00:33:16
    definition of collaborations with a very
  • 00:33:17
    specific kind of goal in mind usually
  • 00:33:19
    around discovery usually around
  • 00:33:20
    discovery of new stuff whatever that
  • 00:33:23
    means
  • 00:33:23
    we find ourselves in a new situation and
  • 00:33:26
    we need to discover some things let's
  • 00:33:28
    adopt a different way of interacting and
  • 00:33:30
    be very conscious about it the second
  • 00:33:33
    one is X as a service so simply kind of
  • 00:33:35
    consuming an existing service or
  • 00:33:37
    providing an existing service which is
  • 00:33:39
    being pretty straightforward kind of
  • 00:33:40
    conceptually but actually we found
  • 00:33:43
    that's in so many organizations so many
  • 00:33:45
    teams don't even they don't think about
  • 00:33:47
    it in those terms they don't even know
  • 00:33:48
    how to provide a service they don't even
  • 00:33:49
    know what consuming a service would even
  • 00:33:51
    feel like I don't just mean a technical
  • 00:33:54
    so I mean the whole service wrap around
  • 00:33:57
    it what it feels like to interact with
  • 00:33:58
    the people who are supposed to be
  • 00:34:00
    providing that service what does
  • 00:34:01
    documentation look like what's that
  • 00:34:02
    what's the lifetime expected evolution
  • 00:34:04
    of that service the whole concept or
  • 00:34:06
    service if you like and then the third
  • 00:34:08
    kind of way of interacting that felt
  • 00:34:10
    useful to describe was what we call
  • 00:34:12
    facilitating so we've got a team that's
  • 00:34:14
    responsible for some
  • 00:34:15
    but they need something's not working or
  • 00:34:18
    they need some help and so I've got a
  • 00:34:19
    team that's kind of giving them some
  • 00:34:21
    some some temporary support and that
  • 00:34:25
    this this team of which is acting in a
  • 00:34:27
    kind of facilitating way then usually
  • 00:34:29
    has experts but they're not building
  • 00:34:32
    anything on behalf of this primary team
  • 00:34:34
    they are mentoring or coaching or
  • 00:34:37
    guiding in some way and also listening
  • 00:34:41
    they are listening for what is missing
  • 00:34:43
    are we got skills and capabilities and
  • 00:34:44
    missing in this team do we have skills
  • 00:34:46
    and capabilities missing in a platform
  • 00:34:47
    under these do we have fundamentally the
  • 00:34:50
    wrong understanding of what we're trying
  • 00:34:51
    to do as an organization as a whole
  • 00:34:52
    they're there as a kind of sensing
  • 00:34:55
    mechanism to detect because they're
  • 00:34:56
    working across multiple different
  • 00:34:58
    primary teams there is a sensing
  • 00:35:01
    mechanism to say let's listen out for
  • 00:35:04
    what's going on actually in the
  • 00:35:05
    organization so and and in the book we
  • 00:35:09
    think certainly in the field of kind of
  • 00:35:12
    modern enterprise software delivery so
  • 00:35:15
    these are really only three different
  • 00:35:16
    ways that that are really needed in
  • 00:35:19
    terms of interaction and I mean that's
  • 00:35:21
    that's at least two different ways these
  • 00:35:23
    two ways more than most organizations
  • 00:35:25
    have right now which is just kind of
  • 00:35:27
    muddling along and hoping it works out
  • 00:35:29
    right so a little bit of definition
  • 00:35:32
    around these and it's about setting bit
  • 00:35:33
    setting expectations for behavior and
  • 00:35:35
    making it a first-class thing then we
  • 00:35:37
    should have some mechanism it's
  • 00:35:40
    effectively its boundary spanning for
  • 00:35:41
    the facilitating team is an incredibly
  • 00:35:44
    important header activity which has been
  • 00:35:46
    proven plenty of times with massive
  • 00:35:47
    failures and all sorts of stuff
  • 00:35:49
    we've got boundary spanning across
  • 00:35:50
    multiple different kind of parts of a
  • 00:35:52
    part of the organization we're actively
  • 00:35:54
    expecting to listen and then provide
  • 00:35:57
    some signals for to do something what
  • 00:36:00
    others appropriate just like to give an
  • 00:36:04
    example which I think also fits this
  • 00:36:07
    idea of scaffolding so in our training
  • 00:36:09
    around team topologies there's usually
  • 00:36:11
    an exercise you know specifically around
  • 00:36:14
    organization charts we're trying to
  • 00:36:16
    highlight what Dave was talking about
  • 00:36:19
    earlier that it's the formal structures
  • 00:36:21
    that that bring value and the informal
  • 00:36:24
    communication that that is needs to
  • 00:36:26
    happen versus you know looking at the or
  • 00:36:28
    chart as the as dictating how people
  • 00:36:31
    should communicate with nice lines and
  • 00:36:33
    boxes and so that exercise is quite good
  • 00:36:36
    because most people look at it and say
  • 00:36:38
    oh right we have this work chart but in
  • 00:36:40
    reality when I think about you know some
  • 00:36:42
    complicated project it's it went very
  • 00:36:46
    differently from what org chart would
  • 00:36:47
    suggest but I had one one person who
  • 00:36:51
    replied because we asked guys so how
  • 00:36:53
    does it look at your organization they
  • 00:36:55
    said well we have two levels we have the
  • 00:36:57
    CEO then we have the VPS and the
  • 00:37:00
    underneath that is self organized by the
  • 00:37:03
    teams and I thought there was a
  • 00:37:05
    interesting way to say we have kind of a
  • 00:37:09
    minimum structure in place because you
  • 00:37:12
    know there's compliance and if you you
  • 00:37:14
    know you need to be able to legally
  • 00:37:17
    respond to to stock markets and stuff
  • 00:37:20
    like that but they were basically saying
  • 00:37:22
    underneath that it's kind of open
  • 00:37:26
    open-ended and that's why for them team
  • 00:37:29
    topologies for example is quite
  • 00:37:30
    interesting because it allows them then
  • 00:37:32
    to have structures within that kind of
  • 00:37:34
    open layer where they say well now we
  • 00:37:36
    need more of these teams we need perhaps
  • 00:37:39
    another team that's going to help us
  • 00:37:41
    gain some knowledge or we need more of
  • 00:37:43
    the platform services to allow us to go
  • 00:37:45
    faster so I think that's an interesting
  • 00:37:48
    model where you are saying where we want
  • 00:37:51
    to promote teams self-organizing teams
  • 00:37:53
    that can deliver faster but at the same
  • 00:37:55
    time if we use some some common patterns
  • 00:37:58
    and ideas about what is we how would it
  • 00:38:01
    how we are going to achieve these things
  • 00:38:03
    we need to do you know it brings a nice
  • 00:38:07
    mix of flexibility and promoting
  • 00:38:10
    informal structures and organization
  • 00:38:13
    while also you know having clarity on
  • 00:38:15
    what they want to achieve came to them
  • 00:38:27
    throughout all 42 and I don't think
  • 00:38:29
    either agile 42 or Sitka understand each
  • 00:38:31
    other but that's a different matter one
  • 00:38:34
    of their main scaffoldings is breakfast
  • 00:38:36
    so they provide free breakfasts for all
  • 00:38:39
    their stuff and it's really good
  • 00:38:42
    they now have free lunch as well so
  • 00:38:45
    basically the the common eating actually
  • 00:38:48
    provides a fundamental scaffolding
  • 00:38:50
    around which the organization works and
  • 00:38:53
    they have you know crashes within the
  • 00:38:55
    organization and they worked out the
  • 00:38:57
    money or and the money they spent on
  • 00:38:59
    organizational design consultants was
  • 00:39:01
    considerably less than the money you'd
  • 00:39:02
    spend on chefs and therefore they did
  • 00:39:05
    the latter not the former now it seems
  • 00:39:07
    to me that having a sort of where
  • 00:39:10
    hierarchy here and below that we're not
  • 00:39:12
    as a mistake because actually people
  • 00:39:14
    need a hierarchy I can give you loads of
  • 00:39:16
    references on this yeah
  • 00:39:18
    people need to know where they sit in a
  • 00:39:20
    hierarchy it's just it's not the only
  • 00:39:22
    structure within the organization it
  • 00:39:25
    somebody has to be responsible for
  • 00:39:27
    people for paying conditions etc and so
  • 00:39:30
    the scope there that that's one sort of
  • 00:39:31
    function on there but you could write
  • 00:39:33
    lawful a scaffold in with social spaces
  • 00:39:35
    yeah and benefit and then see what
  • 00:39:38
    happens yeah people overthink design
  • 00:39:42
    yeah we actually evolved as a social
  • 00:39:44
    species where the campfire is probably
  • 00:39:46
    one of the most important things
  • 00:39:48
    all right quite interested in our
  • 00:39:50
    village at the moment you know it we're
  • 00:39:52
    all pissed off because they've stopped
  • 00:39:53
    the Thursday clapping of them and I jest
  • 00:39:56
    stuff so we always doubted 8 o'clock and
  • 00:39:58
    everybody clapped well we've all got to
  • 00:40:01
    chatting with it you know I've met
  • 00:40:03
    people in the street I didn't know
  • 00:40:04
    existed because we move them it's it's
  • 00:40:07
    one of our social spaces with naturally
  • 00:40:09
    social creatures right now that's
  • 00:40:11
    interest in a ritual within a physical
  • 00:40:13
    space creates connections which wouldn't
  • 00:40:15
    otherwise exist and I think that that's
  • 00:40:18
    the thing ot people never think about
  • 00:40:20
    they start with the OD well they start
  • 00:40:22
    with what they want things to be and
  • 00:40:24
    that's always a mistake it's a
  • 00:40:26
    fundamental error in complexity is to
  • 00:40:29
    you you need to say what can we do in
  • 00:40:31
    the present and let's see what happens
  • 00:40:33
    you don't need to say this is the minute
  • 00:40:36
    you say we want to be this type of
  • 00:40:37
    organisation we want to have this person
  • 00:40:39
    you know that the minute you do that
  • 00:40:41
    you've just destroyed yourself you just
  • 00:40:43
    condemn yourself to a cycle as a
  • 00:40:45
    cyclical cycle of despair no hope
  • 00:40:49
    despair hippo pond hypocrisy and then
  • 00:40:52
    the whole thing starts again
  • 00:40:56
    sorry Sonia go ahead no Nigel I just
  • 00:40:59
    quickly wanted to comment on this idea
  • 00:41:02
    of hierarchy because I think something
  • 00:41:05
    that I've seen too much of is is almost
  • 00:41:08
    a demonization of hierarchy you know we
  • 00:41:12
    we've seen for a you know it's like we
  • 00:41:13
    need to get rid of we need to flatten
  • 00:41:15
    the hierarchy you know and and I wanna
  • 00:41:18
    my favorites and complexity authors um
  • 00:41:20
    pourcel yeah he wrote them he wrote an
  • 00:41:23
    article specifically on hierarchy and he
  • 00:41:25
    talked he speaks there about part of the
  • 00:41:27
    fundamental adaptive capacity of a
  • 00:41:30
    system is its ability to maintain
  • 00:41:32
    adaptive hierarchies and I've always
  • 00:41:36
    found that notion really interesting
  • 00:41:38
    especially when you start thinking about
  • 00:41:39
    flow and almost how do you create fluid
  • 00:41:43
    organizations or organizations with
  • 00:41:45
    fluid structures and I think one of the
  • 00:41:48
    key inhibitors here you know and it's
  • 00:41:50
    it's so I do a lot of work with with OD
  • 00:41:52
    and HR departments and even when it
  • 00:41:58
    comes to things like I don't know these
  • 00:42:01
    themed pathologies etc the policies and
  • 00:42:03
    you know things like how they
  • 00:42:05
    remunerated
  • 00:42:06
    how they define roles how status is
  • 00:42:10
    defined in an organization all of those
  • 00:42:12
    things work together to keep these
  • 00:42:13
    hierarchies rigid so I don't have any
  • 00:42:17
    answers for what that might look like I
  • 00:42:19
    think Dave Dave's idea of trios and you
  • 00:42:22
    know I really loved what um Jake was
  • 00:42:24
    saying in the beginning of plastic
  • 00:42:26
    versus permanent or even ephemeral
  • 00:42:28
    structures I think we need to get rid of
  • 00:42:31
    this notion or this idea that a
  • 00:42:33
    hierarchy needs to be permanent unless
  • 00:42:36
    we restructure which happens way too
  • 00:42:39
    often so it's almost how do we create
  • 00:42:42
    fluid hierarchies that is something that
  • 00:42:44
    I'm really interested in so just a
  • 00:42:46
    really quick before I before Nigel
  • 00:42:48
    jumped in
  • 00:42:49
    there's a there's actually a concept for
  • 00:42:50
    what you're describing it's called
  • 00:42:52
    header our keys and a hierarchy is a
  • 00:42:54
    hierarchy that responds directly to
  • 00:42:57
    contextual input so it is not
  • 00:43:01
    hierarchical until it's challenged and
  • 00:43:03
    then it becomes a hierarchy that's what
  • 00:43:05
    a header
  • 00:43:05
    he does I spent about two or three years
  • 00:43:12
    week and everything I could on them
  • 00:43:14
    Genghis Khan and the like the word yeah
  • 00:43:17
    I meant that that's an adaptive
  • 00:43:18
    hierarchy you got families and tribes
  • 00:43:21
    and boards and depends on the context
  • 00:43:24
    they assembled in different ways so
  • 00:43:25
    there's always a hierarchy but the
  • 00:43:27
    hierarchy is different based on context
  • 00:43:31
    so I'm going to try and jump all that
  • 00:43:33
    out Rocky's hierarchies allow you to
  • 00:43:35
    optimize transparency because if you're
  • 00:43:38
    if if you have a hierarchy you can give
  • 00:43:40
    somebody in hierarchy responsibility to
  • 00:43:42
    do something without accountability that
  • 00:43:44
    allows for innovation if you have
  • 00:43:47
    complete self-organization everything
  • 00:43:48
    has to be transparent and nobody will do
  • 00:43:50
    anything risky sorry Mario no no no it's
  • 00:43:54
    fine because there's so many different
  • 00:43:55
    interesting points and I'm trying to
  • 00:43:56
    sort of visualize it can contextualize
  • 00:43:59
    it to business from that point of view
  • 00:44:01
    and even jumping back to what Matthew
  • 00:44:03
    Manuel was saying about boundary
  • 00:44:05
    spanners because boundary spanning is a
  • 00:44:07
    major feature for the distributed
  • 00:44:09
    leadership model and we've sort of
  • 00:44:10
    talked about in the flow system and and
  • 00:44:13
    really I wrote a piece on this recently
  • 00:44:16
    because I see this is the way of giving
  • 00:44:18
    purpose to that middle management layer
  • 00:44:20
    if we come back just to the basic
  • 00:44:22
    structures within an organization you've
  • 00:44:24
    got your upper echelons of the
  • 00:44:26
    executives who were detached and a
  • 00:44:28
    non-participatory and we've got the
  • 00:44:30
    middle of management it'll front to
  • 00:44:31
    death at what the transparency that gets
  • 00:44:34
    told to these boats here so they
  • 00:44:35
    suppress what's happening down here
  • 00:44:37
    which stops all the innovation the
  • 00:44:39
    self-organization the organic nature of
  • 00:44:41
    that and some of the comments that you
  • 00:44:43
    were describing sort of describes
  • 00:44:44
    something like a fully self-organizing
  • 00:44:47
    organization which is a fantastic
  • 00:44:49
    concept but the the problem with
  • 00:44:52
    organizations and the hierarchies in
  • 00:44:54
    organizations they want real rigid
  • 00:44:56
    confirmed structure and the HR folks are
  • 00:44:58
    very much in that camp and I think
  • 00:45:00
    Cottard sort of talked about this a
  • 00:45:02
    little bit in what he used to call his
  • 00:45:03
    dual operating system where you've got
  • 00:45:05
    the hierarchy to stop the lunatics
  • 00:45:07
    running the asylum but then they sort of
  • 00:45:09
    multi team system that self organized
  • 00:45:11
    and reorganized organically depending
  • 00:45:14
    upon the emergent needs and what a
  • 00:45:16
    but coming back to basic organizational
  • 00:45:19
    design and and Andrew and I were talking
  • 00:45:21
    about this before the course started on
  • 00:45:22
    before we started recording is that
  • 00:45:25
    there's a few basic concepts here we've
  • 00:45:27
    got somebody who wants something
  • 00:45:29
    typically the people who pay you money
  • 00:45:31
    the generators of revenue or the where
  • 00:45:34
    revenue comes from that's tends to be
  • 00:45:36
    called the customer and then you've got
  • 00:45:38
    these other folks which tend to be
  • 00:45:39
    called users or stakeholders which don't
  • 00:45:41
    actually pay for the things they can see
  • 00:45:43
    more use they have an influence on it
  • 00:45:45
    but they are the sort of internal
  • 00:45:47
    stakeholders and typically users of
  • 00:45:49
    systems or products doesn't have to be
  • 00:45:51
    IT systems they're just talking about
  • 00:45:52
    the consumers of something we in the
  • 00:45:55
    flow system call this value it's a no
  • 00:45:58
    it's a crazy concept but we call this
  • 00:46:00
    value and value to be value it has to be
  • 00:46:03
    valuable so there has to be a perception
  • 00:46:05
    of what you're delivering is valuable
  • 00:46:07
    and so this is where the whole customer
  • 00:46:09
    first concept comes from and then the
  • 00:46:12
    organization needs to organize itself in
  • 00:46:14
    a way that optimizes the delivery of
  • 00:46:18
    what people perceive as value be that
  • 00:46:19
    internal users and stakeholders or
  • 00:46:21
    external customers and this is that the
  • 00:46:24
    challenge when we're trying to solve
  • 00:46:25
    here so when we start to look at
  • 00:46:28
    distributed leadership which we want
  • 00:46:31
    that centralized coordination that in
  • 00:46:34
    those enabling constraints that give us
  • 00:46:37
    purpose and focus as to what we're
  • 00:46:39
    directing that we're the direction we're
  • 00:46:40
    going in but then you need the teams to
  • 00:46:43
    organize in a way that allows them to
  • 00:46:46
    deliver that value but if we don't give
  • 00:46:48
    those middle management's a functional
  • 00:46:51
    wrong which is functional leadership a
  • 00:46:53
    purpose which is boundary spanning then
  • 00:46:56
    that tends to reduce the ability of that
  • 00:46:58
    organization and listening to some and
  • 00:47:01
    want and Matthew about the the team
  • 00:47:02
    ologies and the different technologies
  • 00:47:04
    of teams for those to be able to
  • 00:47:06
    organize in the way they want to and
  • 00:47:09
    actually takes our organisation beyond
  • 00:47:12
    the sort of scrum guide notion of this
  • 00:47:15
    which is you know six or seven or eight
  • 00:47:17
    people sort of self-organizing the way
  • 00:47:19
    or 2/3 to 90 to give the correct quote
  • 00:47:22
    we're now saying that teams can
  • 00:47:24
    self-organize across teams so we're
  • 00:47:26
    talking about self-organizing multi team
  • 00:47:29
    sister
  • 00:47:29
    and then when you have a multi team
  • 00:47:32
    system organization the boundary
  • 00:47:34
    spanning functional role becomes
  • 00:47:36
    actually be crucial to allow those multi
  • 00:47:39
    team systems to have some form of
  • 00:47:41
    scaffolding to be out of function
  • 00:47:44
    effectively there's a lot of pull
  • 00:47:46
    interesting points I was trying to pull
  • 00:47:48
    together in my head there yeah a lot of
  • 00:47:51
    the work that we've been doing lately
  • 00:47:52
    Nigel has been has been about putting
  • 00:47:55
    the people with the political context
  • 00:47:58
    the knowledge of the technical or
  • 00:48:01
    architectural constraints the knowledge
  • 00:48:04
    of the physical constraints of the
  • 00:48:05
    environment the social constraints of
  • 00:48:07
    the environment into a process where
  • 00:48:11
    they learn about the principles of
  • 00:48:13
    modern organizational design but then
  • 00:48:16
    actually go through a process of
  • 00:48:18
    designing their own system so it's
  • 00:48:21
    basically a design studio with iterative
  • 00:48:25
    approaches and a modified version of
  • 00:48:28
    Dave's ritual descent process that sort
  • 00:48:31
    of sits there to enable them to have
  • 00:48:34
    some nice debate some healthy debate
  • 00:48:38
    about each other's ideas but yeah it's
  • 00:48:40
    putting this it's about putting the
  • 00:48:42
    power to do model and design back in the
  • 00:48:46
    hands of the people who actually know
  • 00:48:48
    what's going on the people who know what
  • 00:48:51
    know what they need to do and how to do
  • 00:48:54
    it and giving them the power to be able
  • 00:48:56
    to organize that so another crazy notion
  • 00:48:58
    and because we've got some people who
  • 00:49:01
    study anthropology and sociology and
  • 00:49:03
    human beings on the call one of the
  • 00:49:06
    things that I focused on a lot and I'm
  • 00:49:08
    not in that category of deep expertise
  • 00:49:10
    but one of the things I focused on a lot
  • 00:49:12
    is human factors human behaviors because
  • 00:49:15
    one of the things we find within
  • 00:49:16
    organizations is the behaviors of those
  • 00:49:19
    that have reached their pinnacle of
  • 00:49:21
    leadership whether you've subscribed to
  • 00:49:23
    the Peter Principle or not the level of
  • 00:49:24
    their incompetence they they have they
  • 00:49:29
    become that their behavior starts to
  • 00:49:32
    fall into that command and control
  • 00:49:33
    category which is I've reached a level
  • 00:49:36
    of power and and prestige in the
  • 00:49:38
    organization I am NOT going to cede that
  • 00:49:41
    power and prestige and allow those that
  • 00:49:43
    under me to be able to make decisions in
  • 00:49:46
    this distributed leadership model and
  • 00:49:48
    self organize and reorganize in a fluid
  • 00:49:51
    way to deliver the value to a customer
  • 00:49:54
    and so I'm interested what the what the
  • 00:49:57
    the group's opinions are and actually
  • 00:49:59
    trying to correct those behaviors
  • 00:50:01
    because behaviors tend to be can be
  • 00:50:03
    emergent but there are ways we can
  • 00:50:05
    structure with scaffolding and activity
  • 00:50:08
    to sort of guide behavior entire to the
  • 00:50:11
    and on-call is an example of that but
  • 00:50:14
    I'm interested in what everybody's
  • 00:50:15
    thoughts are about how we correct the
  • 00:50:16
    behaviors because all the ideas we're
  • 00:50:18
    talking about are incredibly valuable
  • 00:50:21
    and fantastic but while ever we have
  • 00:50:24
    certain behaviors entrenched within an
  • 00:50:25
    organization and we can't break that
  • 00:50:28
    behavioral cycle then a lot of these
  • 00:50:30
    ideas won't gain traction I think like
  • 00:50:33
    one of the things that I I've tried I
  • 00:50:37
    tried to figure out how to best say this
  • 00:50:39
    in the past on Twitter and haven't
  • 00:50:41
    figured out quite yet but the book that
  • 00:50:44
    I'm most pissed about not having written
  • 00:50:46
    without claiming that I could have
  • 00:50:48
    written it is the team topology spoke I
  • 00:50:50
    really it's such a great book to read I
  • 00:50:53
    really enjoy quite a bit but part of the
  • 00:50:56
    reason I want to like do a good version
  • 00:50:59
    bad version of what could happen with
  • 00:51:00
    that book right the good version of it
  • 00:51:03
    is something like critical anthropology
  • 00:51:05
    critical ethnography and and what what
  • 00:51:08
    that theory is based in is the idea that
  • 00:51:11
    groups of people will be surveyed by
  • 00:51:13
    governments and there's no way that's
  • 00:51:15
    going to stop but one of the things that
  • 00:51:17
    fog refers and anthropologists could do
  • 00:51:19
    would be to teach those people how to
  • 00:51:21
    express themselves about themselves in
  • 00:51:23
    ways that they can be seen by that
  • 00:51:25
    government appropriately right
  • 00:51:27
    I think the good version of the team
  • 00:51:32
    topologies book is that people in
  • 00:51:35
    organizations will use it to self
  • 00:51:39
    organize in within actual constraints as
  • 00:51:42
    opposed to like just go self organize
  • 00:51:45
    and figure it out
  • 00:51:46
    like just you'll it'll it'll naturally
  • 00:51:47
    emerge from the the planet will make it
  • 00:51:50
    alright or some crap like that right
  • 00:51:52
    instead we've got a set of language and
  • 00:51:55
    techniques and theories about
  • 00:51:57
    people can think about organizational
  • 00:51:59
    design that's been boiled down well
  • 00:52:02
    enough that people can read it and keep
  • 00:52:04
    people could use it to actually express
  • 00:52:06
    express how they would like themselves
  • 00:52:10
    to be observed as an organized group in
  • 00:52:12
    language that would make sense to
  • 00:52:14
    corporate right corporate players the
  • 00:52:19
    bad version of it would be that the big
  • 00:52:22
    five pick up the team topology stuff do
  • 00:52:25
    a little bit of you know whitewashing of
  • 00:52:27
    it and rename some of the theories and
  • 00:52:30
    then offer to sell people workshops
  • 00:52:33
    around developing their organizations
  • 00:52:35
    right I think that like the difference
  • 00:52:38
    between these two versions where where
  • 00:52:41
    something like team topologies allows
  • 00:52:44
    the concept of self-organization to
  • 00:52:46
    actually emerge within real constraints
  • 00:52:49
    as opposed to vague hippy promises that
  • 00:52:53
    is the promise to me of something like
  • 00:52:55
    this and that's the thing I think we
  • 00:52:56
    really need to get to if that makes any
  • 00:52:58
    sense yeah that's a really interesting
  • 00:53:00
    point I think the bad version is
  • 00:53:03
    inevitable so we need to design with
  • 00:53:08
    that constraint in mind one of the
  • 00:53:11
    things we did already is to have a page
  • 00:53:12
    at our website called certification and
  • 00:53:14
    then make it super clear that we don't
  • 00:53:17
    offer certification and the hiding spots
  • 00:53:19
    anyone offering certification and they
  • 00:53:21
    can they can send us a note so you need
  • 00:53:22
    to learn the penicillin lesson and they
  • 00:53:26
    refuse to patent it so it would be
  • 00:53:27
    freely available for Humanity and then
  • 00:53:29
    an American company painted it made all
  • 00:53:31
    the money so I won't because it's why we
  • 00:53:34
    just trademark and having just to stop
  • 00:53:36
    anybody else doing so then I think we
  • 00:53:39
    might do something like that
  • 00:53:40
    we're not sophisticated enough for
  • 00:53:42
    understanding the behavior I mean I've
  • 00:53:44
    been playing around with different types
  • 00:53:45
    of behavior so you get analysis in which
  • 00:53:47
    is very common in large organizations
  • 00:53:49
    yeah and now at a national level which
  • 00:53:52
    it never has been before I mean that
  • 00:53:54
    that's the crazy thing about a modern
  • 00:53:55
    world and that's got to be something to
  • 00:53:58
    do with connectivity as made analysis is
  • 00:54:00
    impossible and math have before
  • 00:54:03
    connectivity there were too many buffers
  • 00:54:04
    for it to get to a political stage
  • 00:54:06
    you've got deviance you've got cynicism
  • 00:54:10
    yeah you've got reverse paternalism
  • 00:54:12
    where people in the network thing they
  • 00:54:14
    know better than the CEO and they may do
  • 00:54:16
    right all of these are positive and
  • 00:54:18
    negative aspects and I think there's a
  • 00:54:20
    really I've got a blog half information
  • 00:54:23
    on this which was kind of like a
  • 00:54:24
    typology of behavioral characteristics
  • 00:54:28
    he's lonely they always said this is
  • 00:54:30
    cynics the ones who care so if you got
  • 00:54:33
    cynics in the organization you should be
  • 00:54:35
    bloody grateful because you're getting a
  • 00:54:36
    feedback loop yeah and you should really
  • 00:54:39
    really tell yourself off because you've
  • 00:54:42
    allowed them to get to the point where
  • 00:54:43
    that's how they feel right and anybody
  • 00:54:47
    who I mean we're doing some potential
  • 00:54:50
    work with one of the big farmers at the
  • 00:54:51
    moment and I still remember I did the
  • 00:54:53
    first merger and acquisition work with
  • 00:54:54
    them 20 years ago and now we're about to
  • 00:54:57
    do it again and I went early unlatch Lee
  • 00:55:00
    which told you it was it and basically
  • 00:55:02
    said I think you should fire these
  • 00:55:04
    deeply said why that all the people who
  • 00:55:05
    are positive about the merger I said
  • 00:55:07
    that's what you should find them because
  • 00:55:09
    the people who care about the company
  • 00:55:11
    carrying on doing the jobs these guys
  • 00:55:13
    are just playing politics and we've
  • 00:55:15
    looked into this all right they're all
  • 00:55:16
    they've all worked out what you want to
  • 00:55:18
    hear and they're feeding it to you
  • 00:55:19
    constantly and they're in your ear all
  • 00:55:21
    the time and you're about to probe them
  • 00:55:23
    to your Zeta they can't cope with yeah
  • 00:55:25
    yeah the ones you want to listen to the
  • 00:55:27
    ones who don't agree with you and that
  • 00:55:29
    was always head of a virtual community
  • 00:55:30
    where he could go and talk with people
  • 00:55:32
    without anybody know it was him very
  • 00:55:37
    effective what you've just said is
  • 00:55:39
    incredibly true the narcissistic
  • 00:55:42
    tendencies the fact that all the the
  • 00:55:45
    what they used to call the yes men back
  • 00:55:46
    in the day all the people agreeing with
  • 00:55:48
    those narcissistic leaders and they're
  • 00:55:50
    ignoring and and actually removing and
  • 00:55:55
    I've experienced recently the continuous
  • 00:55:58
    firing of senior people director
  • 00:56:00
    executive level who have not agreed with
  • 00:56:03
    the narcissistic leadership so this is a
  • 00:56:06
    real real real problem in industry today
  • 00:56:11
    but I think here we we also need to just
  • 00:56:15
    you know consider the system that
  • 00:56:17
    enables that behavior because you know
  • 00:56:20
    it's it's it's interesting I've seen so
  • 00:56:22
    many times
  • 00:56:23
    there might be a really problematic
  • 00:56:26
    person whether on a team or on an X Co
  • 00:56:29
    might be the narcissist you get rid of
  • 00:56:33
    that person and somebody else just takes
  • 00:56:35
    up that that role the game and so I yes
  • 00:56:39
    and I think you know this is this is why
  • 00:56:41
    I find the world of system psychodynamic
  • 00:56:45
    so interesting because there's a really
  • 00:56:46
    interesting interplay also between the
  • 00:56:49
    constraints that's in place and that's
  • 00:56:51
    held and how people take up its
  • 00:56:54
    particular roles and the dynamics
  • 00:56:56
    between people and I think this is
  • 00:56:57
    something that we have and and the OD
  • 00:57:00
    community in general have NIC neglected
  • 00:57:03
    you know they focus so much on the
  • 00:57:04
    individual and they forget about the
  • 00:57:07
    system that Coco creates that behavior
  • 00:57:10
    in it and that in a way you know keeps
  • 00:57:12
    it in place like wasn't very favorite
  • 00:57:17
    stories really quickly I met this man
  • 00:57:19
    who was a Toyota sensei and had now had
  • 00:57:24
    was working in American corporation he
  • 00:57:25
    said I wanna I want to say something you
  • 00:57:28
    you seem like a sharp kid so I want to
  • 00:57:31
    tell you something when I was a sensei
  • 00:57:34
    and Toyota when we got a new manager the
  • 00:57:36
    new manager would show up and what would
  • 00:57:39
    happen would be that the new manager
  • 00:57:41
    would start doing the Toyota way in the
  • 00:57:43
    United States when I get a new manager
  • 00:57:45
    they change everything every every three
  • 00:57:47
    years and it's because they think
  • 00:57:49
    they've been hired to change something
  • 00:57:52
    and they don't have any respect for any
  • 00:57:55
    form of over-arching constraint or
  • 00:57:58
    system so the only way they can express
  • 00:58:01
    their value is by changing things and he
  • 00:58:04
    said I've seen more value destroyed by
  • 00:58:07
    managers trying to prove that they've
  • 00:58:10
    done something than just simply doing
  • 00:58:13
    the work of management we've
  • 00:58:18
    unfortunately come to the end of the one
  • 00:58:20
    hour time box I'm happy to keep chatting
  • 00:58:23
    about this stuff if people are available
  • 00:58:25
    but I think I probably should pause the
  • 00:58:28
    recording now I'd just like to say a big
  • 00:58:30
    thanks to everyone that was really
  • 00:58:33
    fascinating conversation that went in
  • 00:58:35
    all sorts of
  • 00:58:36
    very cool directions really appreciate
  • 00:58:38
    everyone's time Thank You param yes I
  • 00:58:47
    wish I wish we had heard Matt and and
  • 00:58:49
    other authors a little bit more I
  • 00:58:51
    apologize if I talk too much that's all
  • 00:59:01
    right we'll do all I'll save this
  • 00:59:05
    recording and send it out to everyone so
  • 00:59:07
    you can distribute it yeah I'll stop it
  • 00:59:11
    now but thanks again okay guys
  • 00:59:15
    like something said
标签
  • Organizational Design
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  • Lean
  • Flow Systems
  • Scaffolding
  • Hierarchies
  • Complexity Theory
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  • Team Topologies
  • Innovation