When Transit isn't Built to be Transit (with RMTransit)

00:48:53
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgc_c2E4nFk

摘要

TLDRThis podcast episode features a conversation about the rise and implications of the 'Obama-era streetcars' in the US. The discussion centers on Portland's streetcar success, which inspired other cities to emulate its model focused on urban development rather than effective transit solutions. The hosts evaluate the effectiveness, criticisms, and consequences of these streetcar projects, noting their generally low ridership and lack of integration with public transportation systems. They highlight the need for cities to prioritize genuine public transit infrastructure and develop cohesive urban planning strategies that better cater to residents' transit needs.

心得

  • 🚋 Streetcars symbolize urban development efforts in US cities during the Obama era.
  • 🏙️ Portland's streetcar model inspired numerous cities to replicate its success.
  • 📉 Many streetcar systems struggle with low ridership and integration issues.
  • 🚫 Critics argue streetcars often prioritize development over effective transit solutions.
  • 🌍 A better approach would emphasize genuine transit infrastructure rather than aesthetic urbanism.
  • 🔄 Continuous investment in transit can enhance infrastructure and foster expertise.
  • 🤷‍♂️ The success of streetcars hinges on their design and integration into cities.
  • 🚌 Alternatives like connected bus services might offer more effective transit solutions.
  • 🤔 There is latent demand for well-planned urban transit options in North America.
  • 🔍 Urban development from streetcars can spur further improvements in urban environments.

时间轴

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The podcast introduces Rey from RM Transit and discusses the fascinating topic of streetcars, specifically during the Obama era in the US, highlighting the construction of over 10 new streetcar systems across various cities, including both red and blue states. The conversation indicates that these projects were interesting experiments in urbanism and public transit development during this time.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Rey explains that the origins of the Obama era streetcar systems can be traced back to Portland in the 2000s, where a successful, albeit limited, streetcar system was developed, influencing other cities to follow suit in hopes of urban redevelopment and increased property values around new transit systems.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    The conversation shifts to the motivation behind these streetcar projects, revealing that many cities primarily viewed them as tools for stimulating development rather than enhancing public transit. Successful examples demonstrate how these projects succeeded in encouraging development and revitalizing urban areas, with the streetcar often acting as a catalyst for change.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    It's noted that while Portland's streetcar led to substantial urban redevelopment, other municipalities, such as Tucson, saw success solely from the planning phase before the streetcars were operational. This reflects a significant shift in approach, wherein the emphasis has been more on potential developments and property tax revenues than on effective transit service.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Despite the success in urban development, there are significant criticisms regarding the practicality and effectiveness of these streetcar systems. Issues stem from low ridership figures, with comparisons drawn to more successful streetcar operations in cities like Toronto, raising questions about the sustainability and efficiency of the current systems.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Rey raises a point regarding aesthetic urbanism, where cities attempt to replicate European transit styles without implementing functional systems or understanding what constitutes effective transit. This observational critique underscores the importance of operational efficiency over mere visual appeal.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The discussion continues to explore how these streetcars often operate independently from larger transit networks, leading to confusion and inefficiencies, especially when they operate in mixed traffic conditions. This disconnect harms potential ridership levels as users don't find the systems reliable or convenient.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Towards the end of the discussion, Rey highlights the need for long-term planning and consistency in building comprehensive transit systems, which have yet to happen in many North American cities. The idea of creating a continuous ethos around transit planning, akin to highway development, is presented as a solution to the sporadic nature of transit projects today.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:48:53

    In conclusion, the podcast reflects on the urbanist potential unlocked by these streetcar projects, even if they are currently flawed in execution. The conversation emphasizes the need for cities to evaluate and build upon the successes in development while simultaneously striving for an effective public transit system that meets the needs of their citizens.

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思维导图

视频问答

  • What are Obama-era streetcars?

    Obama-era streetcars refer to the streetcar systems built in various US cities during the Obama administration, focusing on urban redevelopment.

  • Which cities implemented these streetcar systems?

    Cities like Portland, Kansas City, and Tucson are examples where streetcar systems were built to spur urban development.

  • What was the main goal behind building these streetcars?

    The primary goal was often to encourage urban development and increase property values rather than to provide effective public transit.

  • How do these American streetcars compare to European trams?

    American streetcars are typically shorter, often operate in mixed traffic, and have lower ridership compared to comprehensive European tram systems.

  • What are common criticisms of these streetcar systems?

    Critics point to low ridership numbers, mixed traffic operation, and inadequate integration with existing transit systems as key flaws.

  • Did these streetcars lead to urban development?

    Yes, in many cases, the establishment of streetcar lines did stimulate local development, though the effectiveness varied by city.

  • What is 'Transit-oriented development'?

    Transit-oriented development is a planning approach that focuses on creating neighborhoods centered around public transport to enhance accessibility and reduce reliance on cars.

  • What alternative to streetcars could cities consider?

    Cities could consider investing in connected bus services or comprehensive transit networks instead of isolated streetcar projects.

  • Why is continuous investment in transit important?

    Continuous investment helps build expertise and improve transit infrastructure over time, as seen in cities that keep expanding their systems.

  • How do streetcars affect urban planning and behaviors?

    Streetcars can promote certain urban behaviors, such as increased walkability and neighborhood development, but only when well-designed and integrated.

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  • 00:00:03
    [Music]
  • 00:00:13
    welcome to the urbanist agenda the
  • 00:00:15
    podcast that could probably talk about
  • 00:00:17
    trams forever I'm joined again here with
  • 00:00:20
    reys from RM Transit welcome back ree
  • 00:00:22
    thanks for having me on Jason this is
  • 00:00:24
    like what our third or fourth episode on
  • 00:00:26
    trams at this point you know I actually
  • 00:00:28
    think it's only our second but we've
  • 00:00:30
    talked about it so many times that it
  • 00:00:32
    feels like our for we have had many
  • 00:00:34
    conversations offline about TRS as well
  • 00:00:36
    yeah exactly right it's hard to keep
  • 00:00:38
    track which ones were recorded and which
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    ones were not but exactly this one is
  • 00:00:43
    going to be about street cars but
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    specifically we're going to talk about a
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    certain era of street cars that's kind
  • 00:00:50
    of interesting in the US so tell us
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    about that yeah so because we're talking
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    about the street cars you know it's got
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    to be like America or Canada so
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    otherwise they'd be trams yeah exactly
  • 00:00:59
    which is the name for them of it so what
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    we're going to talk about today is the
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    Obama era street cars which I think is a
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    really interesting topic because it
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    touches on so many interesting threads I
  • 00:01:09
    think about urbanism and about like what
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    makes cities good what makes Transit
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    good and what these are essentially was
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    kind of around the Obama era the US
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    built like actually a surprising amount
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    of these like a really surprising amount
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    like there's like over 10 I think street
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    car systems they aren't very big but
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    they built in all kinds of cities not
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    like just in blue States or whatever
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    there's a bunch of them in red States
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    and in like in different kind of weird
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    locations cities that otherwise have no
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    rail Transit of any kind and they're a
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    really interesting example of this era
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    of the United States and kind of yes
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    what urbanism was about at the time
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    because these are you know like an
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    urbanist project whether or not they're
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    a good urbanist project I think we'll
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    talk about but I think it's really
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    interesting and it kind of shows what
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    can go right or what could go wrong with
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    the kind of like real life projects
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    because people often talk about like you
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    know what is the end goal of all of this
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    and I guess the end goal is to do
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    something like this it's to have like
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    some big policy pushes where something
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    gets done whether this is what you want
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    to get done or not is a different
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    question but this is like a case study
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    in like some people had an idea and it
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    kind of like blew up and turned into
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    this whole thing that kind of spread
  • 00:02:23
    across a pretty big country and so now
  • 00:02:25
    we can kind of look back and say was
  • 00:02:26
    that a good idea or not yeah it was
  • 00:02:29
    actually really interesting reading
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    about this cuz I know generally of these
  • 00:02:32
    street cars but I don't follow the US
  • 00:02:34
    really really closely so you know I knew
  • 00:02:36
    that Kansas City had one and I knew that
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    there was one in Houston and I knew that
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    the Portland one was quite popular and a
  • 00:02:42
    lot of people were trying to copy that
  • 00:02:44
    but that's kind of the sum total of what
  • 00:02:45
    I knew about it so when I started
  • 00:02:46
    researching this after you sent me this
  • 00:02:48
    idea I was like wow this is like way
  • 00:02:51
    more complex and interesting honestly
  • 00:02:53
    than I thought it would be so where do
  • 00:02:56
    we start with this because a lot of the
  • 00:02:57
    time online these are called the Obama
  • 00:02:59
    street cars or the Obama era street cars
  • 00:03:02
    from my understanding a lot of this kind
  • 00:03:04
    of started with Portland because they
  • 00:03:06
    were successful is that where this story
  • 00:03:07
    starts yeah basically so Portland back
  • 00:03:11
    in the two I want to say 2000s but like
  • 00:03:14
    everything here there could be errors
  • 00:03:16
    we're just kind of flying by the seat of
  • 00:03:18
    our pants it did originate in Portland
  • 00:03:20
    and basically what happened it's kind of
  • 00:03:22
    interesting is they like imported a tram
  • 00:03:25
    or some trams and the designs for trams
  • 00:03:28
    from scota I think from the Czech
  • 00:03:30
    Republic and so they had this like kind
  • 00:03:32
    of a little let's be honest crappy
  • 00:03:35
    Eastern European tra design the new
  • 00:03:37
    designs are much nicer but this kind of
  • 00:03:39
    older design and Portland built like
  • 00:03:42
    this relatively limited street car
  • 00:03:44
    system through some kind of
  • 00:03:46
    Redevelopment areas in central Portland
  • 00:03:49
    and they kind of wanted to do to around
  • 00:03:51
    it Etc and it was quite successful
  • 00:03:53
    actually in the sense that like a lot of
  • 00:03:55
    to did actually happen in these Central
  • 00:03:58
    areas of Portland and as someone who
  • 00:03:59
    spent a lot of time in Portland they are
  • 00:04:01
    actually very pleasant areas around the
  • 00:04:04
    street car and so there was this project
  • 00:04:06
    and then you know the following years a
  • 00:04:08
    bunch of other cities who were like
  • 00:04:10
    interested in Urban Development and
  • 00:04:12
    stuff they had crappy land that they
  • 00:04:13
    wanted to turn into Pleasant
  • 00:04:15
    neighborhoods they're like wow look at
  • 00:04:17
    what Portland did and you know they made
  • 00:04:19
    their money back kind of thing because
  • 00:04:20
    there was so much development and the
  • 00:04:22
    street car was so cheap to build that
  • 00:04:24
    you know it was like a no-brainer from a
  • 00:04:26
    land speculation perspective and so
  • 00:04:29
    these projects just spread out across
  • 00:04:31
    the entire us to all kinds of different
  • 00:04:34
    places and they kind of were different
  • 00:04:36
    in different cities like there were
  • 00:04:37
    different approaches taken Etc and it
  • 00:04:40
    kind of as I said spread and it's still
  • 00:04:42
    happening a bit now like there were some
  • 00:04:44
    expansion projects to some of these
  • 00:04:46
    systems and there's some new ones like
  • 00:04:48
    Orange County is building a street car
  • 00:04:51
    oh interesting so like this is like Peak
  • 00:04:53
    Suburbia yeah yeah no kidding but my
  • 00:04:55
    understanding is like on some main strip
  • 00:04:57
    in Orange County they decided to build
  • 00:04:59
    one and so I think that one's opening
  • 00:05:01
    like it's either opened quite recently
  • 00:05:02
    or it's going to open in the next like
  • 00:05:05
    six to 12 months and so this kind of era
  • 00:05:08
    is still we're kind of on the tail end
  • 00:05:10
    of it but it clearly had a big impact
  • 00:05:12
    because a lot of cities actually ended
  • 00:05:14
    up saying hey like yeah we're going to
  • 00:05:15
    do this we're going to build our own
  • 00:05:17
    street car just like Portland did yeah
  • 00:05:19
    and from my understanding it was really
  • 00:05:21
    about the development so you mentioned
  • 00:05:23
    to to anybody not familiar that's
  • 00:05:24
    Transit oriented development where you
  • 00:05:27
    do development based around a Transit
  • 00:05:29
    syst system so either one that exists or
  • 00:05:31
    you build the transit system with the
  • 00:05:34
    intention of spurring development right
  • 00:05:36
    and from what I understand of these
  • 00:05:38
    systems that development was really kind
  • 00:05:41
    of the goal of most of these cities
  • 00:05:44
    right like they were interested in
  • 00:05:45
    transit but in some cases they were
  • 00:05:47
    almost less interested in transit as
  • 00:05:49
    they were of a way of spurring
  • 00:05:51
    development yeah absolutely I mean I
  • 00:05:52
    think in a lot of cases it was
  • 00:05:54
    definitely they were not really
  • 00:05:55
    interested in the transit element and it
  • 00:05:57
    was almost an inconvenience it was like
  • 00:05:59
    well if if we have to spend the money to
  • 00:06:00
    now we got to run a damn tram system
  • 00:06:02
    yeah like we're going to do that and
  • 00:06:03
    then we'll get that sweet property tax
  • 00:06:05
    revenue and we'll sell off like crappy
  • 00:06:07
    old land that we've remediated to be
  • 00:06:09
    turned into like midrise Apartments sort
  • 00:06:12
    of thing and so you saw this in a lot of
  • 00:06:15
    different cities and they tended to kind
  • 00:06:16
    of be in trendier areas and stuff
  • 00:06:18
    because it was the area that was going
  • 00:06:20
    to get developed next it was the upand
  • 00:06:22
    cominging area that we were going to
  • 00:06:23
    invest in and so for example in DC they
  • 00:06:27
    built one I believe it's on H Street I
  • 00:06:29
    want to say goes kind of from Union
  • 00:06:30
    Station in DC eastwards and that
  • 00:06:33
    Corridor has seen a lot of Redevelopment
  • 00:06:35
    or gentrification since they built it
  • 00:06:37
    and so what I would say is that you know
  • 00:06:40
    broadly speaking if you look at these
  • 00:06:42
    systems from the lens of like Urban
  • 00:06:45
    Development they did probably succeed in
  • 00:06:48
    that goal like they did actually spur a
  • 00:06:50
    lot of development maybe not as much as
  • 00:06:52
    Portland because Portland really like
  • 00:06:54
    did a lot around its system and it built
  • 00:06:57
    kind of three different street car lines
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    so it's actually a fairly substantial
  • 00:07:00
    system for an American city but I think
  • 00:07:03
    in terms of like hey like did we get
  • 00:07:05
    midrise apartments or whatever they were
  • 00:07:07
    actually pretty successful yeah one of
  • 00:07:09
    the articles that I was reading and I'll
  • 00:07:10
    link it in the show notes had a quote
  • 00:07:12
    from someone from Tucson Arizona and
  • 00:07:15
    they did one of these Street Car
  • 00:07:16
    Projects that was not particularly long
  • 00:07:18
    if I remember correctly but we can get
  • 00:07:20
    to that in a second and the quote in
  • 00:07:22
    there from the official in Tucson was
  • 00:07:24
    that they considered this successful
  • 00:07:26
    before they even started running any
  • 00:07:28
    street cars because
  • 00:07:30
    just the project itself induced so much
  • 00:07:33
    new development that it met their goals
  • 00:07:36
    so in some of these cases they
  • 00:07:38
    effectively paid for their street cars
  • 00:07:41
    just from the new development and they
  • 00:07:43
    didn't even really care about the street
  • 00:07:44
    car we will get into this of course
  • 00:07:47
    because you know lots of criticism has
  • 00:07:49
    happened with some of these street car
  • 00:07:51
    systems to say well why isn't it a bus
  • 00:07:52
    and that would be better Transit and
  • 00:07:54
    things like that but the whole reason it
  • 00:07:57
    was a street car is because Street cars
  • 00:07:59
    have tracks and overhead lines and stops
  • 00:08:02
    and a lot of very fixed infrastructure
  • 00:08:05
    and so that tells developers that
  • 00:08:07
    they're serious about this you know
  • 00:08:08
    they're not just saying oh yeah there's
  • 00:08:10
    going to be a bus through through here
  • 00:08:11
    nobody's going to take that too
  • 00:08:12
    seriously because you could also get rid
  • 00:08:14
    of it the next hour you know so by
  • 00:08:16
    putting down a street car the city is
  • 00:08:19
    saying we're serious about development
  • 00:08:21
    along this Corridor and then that is
  • 00:08:24
    what spurred all of this new Transit
  • 00:08:26
    oriented development for sure and I mean
  • 00:08:28
    I think that from some perspective you
  • 00:08:30
    know it's really positive in the sense
  • 00:08:31
    that there's clearly this huge latent
  • 00:08:33
    demand for like you know Urban
  • 00:08:35
    neighborhoods for like dense walkable
  • 00:08:37
    neighborhoods where you have some
  • 00:08:39
    Transit so at least like people's
  • 00:08:41
    imagined view of what that is like
  • 00:08:44
    they're like holy crap like Tucson and
  • 00:08:46
    Phoenix are not known as particularly
  • 00:08:49
    Transit friendly or really anything but
  • 00:08:50
    car friendly places but even in these
  • 00:08:53
    places you could just suddenly just like
  • 00:08:55
    explosion of development if you just do
  • 00:08:57
    a little bit of Transit because there is
  • 00:08:59
    a demand for that and it does ultimately
  • 00:09:02
    like every developer in the world has
  • 00:09:04
    probably realized this and maybe these
  • 00:09:06
    American developers were later but
  • 00:09:08
    building infrastructure creates value
  • 00:09:10
    because ultimately if you look at two
  • 00:09:12
    pieces of land the one that has
  • 00:09:14
    infrastructure of really any kind well
  • 00:09:16
    it's more valuable because especially in
  • 00:09:18
    places where you're bad at building
  • 00:09:19
    infrastructure like the US the places
  • 00:09:21
    that actually have the infrastructure
  • 00:09:23
    are incredibly rare and so that land
  • 00:09:26
    value suddenly goes way up and so it is
  • 00:09:29
    a interesting way of suddenly creating a
  • 00:09:31
    bunch of super valuable land where maybe
  • 00:09:33
    none existed yeah and of course like I
  • 00:09:36
    said because they've put down tracks
  • 00:09:38
    because they put down physical
  • 00:09:40
    infrastructure there's an understanding
  • 00:09:42
    that this is real that the city is
  • 00:09:44
    taking this seriously that they're I
  • 00:09:46
    guess putting money where their mouth is
  • 00:09:48
    if you will yeah but I guess I mean that
  • 00:09:50
    is great and there certainly is a latent
  • 00:09:53
    demand in North America for better
  • 00:09:56
    neighborhoods like as much as I
  • 00:09:58
    get from you know suburbanites on my
  • 00:10:00
    channel there's a huge number of people
  • 00:10:02
    literally millions of people who would
  • 00:10:04
    absolutely love to live in a mixed juuse
  • 00:10:07
    walkable neighborhood with transit in
  • 00:10:09
    the United States it's just a fact and I
  • 00:10:11
    remember even reading this H research
  • 00:10:13
    where it was like 45% of Americans said
  • 00:10:15
    they'd like to live somewhere where they
  • 00:10:17
    could walk to the things they need on a
  • 00:10:18
    daily basis and yet it's something like
  • 00:10:21
    3% of neighborhoods in the US are that
  • 00:10:23
    so it's really really obvious that there
  • 00:10:26
    is this demand for this and if that can
  • 00:10:29
    happen with a street car then fantastic
  • 00:10:33
    right like what a great way to do it I
  • 00:10:34
    guess the trick is is this actually good
  • 00:10:38
    Transit does it become a good Transit
  • 00:10:40
    project in the end yeah and I think that
  • 00:10:42
    the reason that that's so important is
  • 00:10:44
    that you know when you talk to Americans
  • 00:10:47
    and American urbanists there's a lot of
  • 00:10:49
    nostalgia for the past era of street
  • 00:10:52
    cars as we've kind of talked about in
  • 00:10:53
    the past they used to have these huge
  • 00:10:55
    street car systems in all kinds of
  • 00:10:57
    cities sort of like the one in Toronto
  • 00:10:59
    today a lot of people kind of see this
  • 00:11:01
    as like oh this could just be the first
  • 00:11:03
    step in that and I think that that is
  • 00:11:05
    really important because if you do
  • 00:11:06
    actually build a system that is as big
  • 00:11:09
    as the city that really extends
  • 00:11:10
    everywhere well that's where you go from
  • 00:11:12
    having a few walkable neighborhoods to
  • 00:11:14
    potentially a walkable City like an
  • 00:11:16
    actually good city where cars are not a
  • 00:11:19
    requirement you know and I think the
  • 00:11:22
    problem in this is that if you build a
  • 00:11:24
    street car and it isn't good Transit you
  • 00:11:26
    don't have the transit half of that
  • 00:11:28
    virtuous cycle yeah the reason that
  • 00:11:29
    those street car systems were able to
  • 00:11:31
    get bigger and the cities were able to
  • 00:11:32
    grow into nice places around them is
  • 00:11:34
    because you built a bit of street car it
  • 00:11:37
    was used well and so you had an
  • 00:11:39
    incentive to build more street car as
  • 00:11:41
    opposed to just you know laying tracks
  • 00:11:43
    down endlessly to Spur development but
  • 00:11:45
    no one's actually using these systems
  • 00:11:47
    which require constant ridership to pay
  • 00:11:50
    for the maintenance and everything yeah
  • 00:11:53
    and it is interesting I know some of
  • 00:11:54
    these street cars were free some of them
  • 00:11:56
    still are free I think Kansas City is
  • 00:11:58
    the famous One I don't know if it's
  • 00:11:59
    still free but it certainly was free I
  • 00:12:01
    think it is still free yeah I think it
  • 00:12:02
    is still free I know some of them
  • 00:12:04
    switched from free to paid after Le was
  • 00:12:06
    like one year free or something to get
  • 00:12:08
    people used to it one of the things that
  • 00:12:10
    really surprised me looking at the
  • 00:12:12
    ridership numbers of some of these
  • 00:12:14
    systems is how really crazy low they are
  • 00:12:17
    in the context of even Canada well not
  • 00:12:19
    even even Canada I mean come on the
  • 00:12:21
    street cars in Toronto are really really
  • 00:12:23
    heavily utilized like the statistics you
  • 00:12:26
    see from the King Street car it's like
  • 00:12:28
    80,000
  • 00:12:29
    100,000 people per day using the King
  • 00:12:32
    Street car line in Toronto and these
  • 00:12:34
    articles I was reading were like this
  • 00:12:36
    street car was really successful here in
  • 00:12:38
    this US city it blew past our
  • 00:12:40
    expectations of 5,000 Riders per day and
  • 00:12:42
    I'm like that's a big difference yeah I
  • 00:12:45
    mean like I think it's plausible that
  • 00:12:48
    all of these street cars combined have
  • 00:12:50
    less ridership than like one busy
  • 00:12:52
    Toronto street car yeah I wouldn't be
  • 00:12:54
    surprised which I think highlights that
  • 00:12:56
    you know we're not building them like we
  • 00:12:57
    used to so to speak even though the
  • 00:12:59
    ideas to kind of get back to this like
  • 00:13:01
    what did we do back in the day these
  • 00:13:04
    systems have some serious issues and so
  • 00:13:06
    and we can talk about that but I think
  • 00:13:07
    that the biggest issue is that it's kind
  • 00:13:09
    of symptomatic of what I would call like
  • 00:13:11
    an aesthetic urbanism it's like you go
  • 00:13:13
    to Europe and you see the trams and
  • 00:13:16
    stuff and you just think well the reason
  • 00:13:18
    Europe is nice is because they put a
  • 00:13:20
    tram on the street and so if we put a
  • 00:13:21
    tram on the street we'll be like Europe
  • 00:13:23
    and have nice buildings and good
  • 00:13:25
    architecture and free healthcare and we
  • 00:13:28
    just need a tra on the street and then
  • 00:13:30
    those things will come right and so I
  • 00:13:32
    think the issue for a lot of this was it
  • 00:13:33
    wasn't about providing a good
  • 00:13:36
    transportation system which is why the
  • 00:13:38
    ridership isn't very high yeah it's
  • 00:13:40
    about selling a vision of like you know
  • 00:13:42
    this is what modern American cities
  • 00:13:44
    could look like and to be fair you know
  • 00:13:46
    maybe it kind of came true a bit in
  • 00:13:48
    Portland though having used that street
  • 00:13:50
    car I'm not sure it's very good either
  • 00:13:53
    it's the best of all of them and it's
  • 00:13:55
    still not great but I think that's a
  • 00:13:57
    problem the idea that Urban is is just
  • 00:14:00
    about an aesthetic it's not about
  • 00:14:03
    actually operationalizing things like no
  • 00:14:06
    I don't just see the tram and think oh
  • 00:14:07
    it's so nice that my apartment has a
  • 00:14:09
    tram outside it's no I actually like use
  • 00:14:11
    that to get to work and I walk around
  • 00:14:13
    and stuff I mean it would be interesting
  • 00:14:15
    and I don't have the stats on this but
  • 00:14:17
    it would be interesting to know how many
  • 00:14:18
    of the buildings around these street
  • 00:14:20
    cars had parking or had like I don't
  • 00:14:23
    know like did every apartment get a
  • 00:14:24
    parking spot or like what was the
  • 00:14:26
    parking ratio like for I'm sure most of
  • 00:14:28
    them had parking spots still and that's
  • 00:14:31
    a kind of indicator that even though the
  • 00:14:33
    street car was there we knew that people
  • 00:14:36
    were really going to be driving if they
  • 00:14:37
    were looking to get around yeah that you
  • 00:14:40
    talk about I've referred to that before
  • 00:14:42
    as cargo cult urbanism and I've seen it
  • 00:14:44
    so many times where they match like the
  • 00:14:47
    look of the urbanism but not what
  • 00:14:50
    actually makes it work I see this all
  • 00:14:52
    the time with like bike lanes for
  • 00:14:53
    example in the US they'll do these
  • 00:14:55
    protected intersections like the
  • 00:14:57
    Netherlands and it'll kind of look like
  • 00:14:59
    it like when you first look at it you're
  • 00:15:00
    like oh wow protected intersection just
  • 00:15:02
    like the Netherlands and then as soon as
  • 00:15:03
    you look a little bit more you're like
  • 00:15:04
    oh they didn't do this and they didn't
  • 00:15:06
    do that and they didn't do this on the
  • 00:15:07
    other end the bike lane ends and like
  • 00:15:09
    there's all of these other things that
  • 00:15:11
    come with it it kind of reminds me of
  • 00:15:13
    those cities in China where they
  • 00:15:14
    replicate Paris or something it's just
  • 00:15:17
    it's like just one step removed from
  • 00:15:19
    that because like I know Americans would
  • 00:15:21
    make fun of that that's so Cory like to
  • 00:15:23
    replicate this famous touristy City but
  • 00:15:26
    that's like what these things are
  • 00:15:27
    basically in many cases they really are
  • 00:15:30
    and they are just this aesthetic of a
  • 00:15:32
    good city and I think it's interesting
  • 00:15:34
    because if I look at for example in
  • 00:15:36
    Amsterdam where they've built tram line
  • 00:15:38
    26 so that goes from Amsterdam Central
  • 00:15:42
    out to a new land reclamation project
  • 00:15:45
    that they're doing has it kind of to the
  • 00:15:47
    east yeah to the east yeah and honestly
  • 00:15:50
    it should have been a Metro for how much
  • 00:15:51
    they're building but you know that's a
  • 00:15:52
    whole other discussion but it's
  • 00:15:54
    interesting to see because they built
  • 00:15:56
    that street car out to the middle of
  • 00:15:58
    nowhere on purpose in order to Spur that
  • 00:16:01
    development but then that development
  • 00:16:03
    was very much built around that idea
  • 00:16:05
    that everybody would go there and again
  • 00:16:07
    yeah with the parking and with the
  • 00:16:08
    amenities and with everything else
  • 00:16:10
    everything was this like holistic
  • 00:16:13
    project which I do find that sometimes I
  • 00:16:16
    don't know about the rest of Europe but
  • 00:16:17
    certainly in the Netherlands the
  • 00:16:19
    planning seems to be a lot more I guess
  • 00:16:21
    high level strategic at times it tends
  • 00:16:23
    to be like this is the overarching goal
  • 00:16:26
    that we have for the city or for this
  • 00:16:28
    neighborhood or whatever and here are
  • 00:16:30
    the pieces that go in to make that
  • 00:16:32
    possible like in the Netherlands it's
  • 00:16:33
    not common they say we're just going to
  • 00:16:34
    build a bike project for this many bike
  • 00:16:36
    lanes per year we want to make it safer
  • 00:16:39
    for kids to go to school on their own
  • 00:16:41
    and so then it's like how do we do that
  • 00:16:43
    and it's not just bike Lanes it's bike
  • 00:16:44
    Lanes but it could be different
  • 00:16:45
    Crossings or whatever but those will
  • 00:16:47
    come in the make it safer for kids to
  • 00:16:49
    get to school project or the develop
  • 00:16:52
    this neighborhood project and not as a
  • 00:16:54
    Transit project or a bike project it'll
  • 00:16:56
    be like a part of something else whereas
  • 00:16:58
    often I find in North America I've seen
  • 00:17:00
    it in Toronto where the bike plan is
  • 00:17:02
    kind of like bikes are good we should
  • 00:17:03
    have more bikes so we're going to build
  • 00:17:05
    50 kilometers of bike Lanes this year
  • 00:17:06
    but it's like where why where are they
  • 00:17:09
    going to go what's their purpose and
  • 00:17:11
    that's not really talked about so much
  • 00:17:13
    and I got the same impression and I
  • 00:17:14
    don't know if it's a correct impression
  • 00:17:16
    but from reading this of the street cars
  • 00:17:18
    that it was kind of just like we're
  • 00:17:19
    going to do the street car like that's
  • 00:17:21
    the goal is the street car and the
  • 00:17:23
    development around it but it was never
  • 00:17:24
    part of anything else it was never part
  • 00:17:26
    of a like you know our 2030 goal is to
  • 00:17:29
    have whatever you know some goal that
  • 00:17:32
    they're trying to reach on this is part
  • 00:17:33
    of it this was like the goal unto itself
  • 00:17:36
    I think that's a really good connection
  • 00:17:37
    to make and I think it might kind of
  • 00:17:39
    tell you if a lot of these bike plans
  • 00:17:43
    are going to pan out well because I
  • 00:17:45
    think we can say about these street cars
  • 00:17:47
    is that maybe as an urban development
  • 00:17:48
    project they've been successful but
  • 00:17:50
    they've been total failures as Transit
  • 00:17:52
    projects and you might say the same
  • 00:17:54
    about these bike lane plans and the
  • 00:17:55
    unfortunate thing is that they're not
  • 00:17:57
    going to drive development the way that
  • 00:17:59
    a street car does because as we've seen
  • 00:18:01
    bike L can get removed pretty quickly
  • 00:18:03
    yeah Toronto has proven that multiple
  • 00:18:05
    times over yeah so I think it is really
  • 00:18:07
    important that you're doing these things
  • 00:18:09
    for the right reasons and it's not sort
  • 00:18:11
    of process oriented but goal oriented as
  • 00:18:13
    you say with an actual here's how many
  • 00:18:15
    people are going to use the thing I
  • 00:18:17
    think that's a much better metric to
  • 00:18:19
    measure your success by than how much
  • 00:18:21
    you're going to build because you can
  • 00:18:22
    always build more you know you could
  • 00:18:24
    sort of brute force that you can't just
  • 00:18:26
    get people to use something that sucks
  • 00:18:28
    yeah they're not going to use it if it
  • 00:18:30
    sucks and so I think that it's very easy
  • 00:18:32
    to have a goal where your goal is to
  • 00:18:34
    build something it's much harder to have
  • 00:18:36
    a goal when it's a societal change or
  • 00:18:38
    it's a you know influencing how people
  • 00:18:40
    are getting around cities and I think we
  • 00:18:43
    can talk about some of the reasons that
  • 00:18:45
    these street cars were so poorly used
  • 00:18:48
    and they're not typically integrated
  • 00:18:49
    with the transit system they're kind of
  • 00:18:51
    their own things it's almost like a
  • 00:18:53
    tourist trolley like those
  • 00:18:55
    historic they sometimes they're not even
  • 00:18:57
    trolleys they're just buses that have
  • 00:18:59
    like the wooden elements and stuff to
  • 00:19:02
    make them look like some sort of
  • 00:19:04
    Heritage thing which is a whole industry
  • 00:19:06
    in the United States is fake trolleys
  • 00:19:08
    for cities that want to pretend they
  • 00:19:10
    could have real trolleys but they're
  • 00:19:12
    that they're basically never getting
  • 00:19:14
    fully dedicated Lanes a lot of them are
  • 00:19:16
    Loops or they have like One Direction on
  • 00:19:18
    one street one on the other Street which
  • 00:19:21
    for a number of reasons is just bad
  • 00:19:23
    Transit Jarrett Walker talks a lot about
  • 00:19:25
    this it's basically like if you have One
  • 00:19:27
    Direction going on one street and
  • 00:19:29
    another going on another Street it means
  • 00:19:31
    that the distance if you wanted to do a
  • 00:19:33
    commute the distance gets kind of
  • 00:19:35
    maximized because you have to be able to
  • 00:19:36
    travel to both stops to make your trip
  • 00:19:38
    instead of just one so it's just like
  • 00:19:41
    you don't really see that approach in
  • 00:19:43
    European cities and there's a reason you
  • 00:19:45
    don't see it and yeah they're just slow
  • 00:19:47
    and they're not very big like as you
  • 00:19:49
    kind of mentioned a lot of these routs
  • 00:19:50
    they're like a couple miles long like
  • 00:19:53
    they are tiny you know any European city
  • 00:19:55
    with a serious tram system is going to
  • 00:19:57
    have 10 times more than 10 times as much
  • 00:20:00
    mileage and so when you have such a
  • 00:20:02
    short system it's sort of like why am I
  • 00:20:04
    going to get on the tram to go like 10
  • 00:20:06
    blocks over when I could just ride a
  • 00:20:08
    bike or walk yeah it doesn't actually
  • 00:20:10
    provide the benefit of Transit you know
  • 00:20:13
    I was surprised reading through the
  • 00:20:14
    stats ahead of this conversation how
  • 00:20:16
    short they are like some of them are
  • 00:20:18
    like two miles and you're like really
  • 00:20:22
    like that's weird cuz that's really easy
  • 00:20:26
    to just walk yeah and I think that
  • 00:20:28
    highlights too is it's not designed by
  • 00:20:30
    people who understand transit or who
  • 00:20:32
    understand this stuff because you'd be
  • 00:20:34
    saying why are we building transit for
  • 00:20:36
    to this is like a walking distance this
  • 00:20:38
    should just be a bike project and
  • 00:20:40
    honestly with the same amount of money
  • 00:20:42
    you could probably build a really nice
  • 00:20:44
    complete Street or something for 10
  • 00:20:46
    miles and it would actually probably be
  • 00:20:47
    a lot more useful to people one anecdote
  • 00:20:50
    I've heard a lot of times and I think
  • 00:20:52
    I've seen a video about it is the DC
  • 00:20:54
    street car that they built it's slower
  • 00:20:57
    than the parallel bus it's less frequent
  • 00:20:59
    than the parallel bus like that runs on
  • 00:21:00
    the same street and I think you can
  • 00:21:02
    actually run more quickly than it
  • 00:21:04
    operates along the street and so that
  • 00:21:07
    kind of takes the mask off and makes it
  • 00:21:09
    clear that it's not meant to get people
  • 00:21:11
    on board in some ways it's for
  • 00:21:12
    developers it's for land speculators and
  • 00:21:15
    the thing that concerns me is that these
  • 00:21:17
    systems are so small and crappy that
  • 00:21:19
    they actually could get ripped out like
  • 00:21:20
    they actually sort of lose some of that
  • 00:21:23
    permanence that you have in a system
  • 00:21:24
    like the Amsterdam TRS it would be
  • 00:21:26
    impossible to rip the system out because
  • 00:21:28
    it's so big it's so extensive it goes
  • 00:21:30
    everywhere it would be in mega project
  • 00:21:32
    on Mega project to remove something like
  • 00:21:34
    that whereas a lot of these American
  • 00:21:36
    systems it's like some bus shelters you
  • 00:21:39
    know next to a crappy curb and then the
  • 00:21:41
    tracks are just in regular Lanes so it's
  • 00:21:44
    sort of like well if we took the tracks
  • 00:21:46
    out then drivers would just get an extra
  • 00:21:48
    lane or we could put parking there you
  • 00:21:49
    can already see the kind of like the how
  • 00:21:52
    that this could be removed over time and
  • 00:21:55
    so I think there's not a lot of Legacy
  • 00:21:58
    there you know if it doesn't create both
  • 00:21:59
    the urbanism and the actual urbanites
  • 00:22:02
    using the thing yeah well I guess the
  • 00:22:04
    trick is they're going to have to run
  • 00:22:07
    these things they're going to have to
  • 00:22:08
    maintain them they're going to have to
  • 00:22:10
    operate them right and so the city is
  • 00:22:13
    eventually going to get tired of paying
  • 00:22:16
    to run trams that have nobody on them
  • 00:22:19
    yeah exactly well and I think an
  • 00:22:20
    interesting it'll be fascinating to see
  • 00:22:22
    you know which ones bite the dust
  • 00:22:24
    essentially like which ones are just
  • 00:22:25
    like tracks and the street cars are long
  • 00:22:27
    gone they've like been sold off to some
  • 00:22:30
    third world country or whatever to
  • 00:22:31
    operate in a place where Transit
  • 00:22:33
    actually gets used and they're just
  • 00:22:35
    sitting there on the street for I don't
  • 00:22:37
    know like an Art Exhibit or something I
  • 00:22:39
    can already imagine that happening I
  • 00:22:41
    know a lot of these systems that operate
  • 00:22:43
    for free Etc they have like crazy
  • 00:22:46
    advertising on them like I want to say
  • 00:22:48
    it's the Oklahoma City one or it might
  • 00:22:50
    be Kansas City it's just like decked in
  • 00:22:52
    Casino ads and it's like sponsored by
  • 00:22:54
    the local casino and it's just like it's
  • 00:22:57
    free and then you're in side it's like
  • 00:22:59
    come play roulette at the local casino
  • 00:23:01
    and it's just so it's like this is not
  • 00:23:03
    how it should be this isn't a good tram
  • 00:23:06
    right I mean then it has the additional
  • 00:23:09
    feeling of just being kind of like a
  • 00:23:11
    cheap toy even worse if you will than an
  • 00:23:14
    empty tram is like one that just feels
  • 00:23:16
    so cheap that the casino is is floating
  • 00:23:19
    picking up the tab yeah it's interesting
  • 00:23:21
    too to kind of highlight that element of
  • 00:23:24
    like in Europe and in Toronto and a
  • 00:23:27
    couple other cities like Mel burn the
  • 00:23:29
    trams are this kind of big
  • 00:23:30
    interconnected Network in Seattle they
  • 00:23:33
    also because Seattle's close to Portland
  • 00:23:35
    they kind of caught on the trend early
  • 00:23:37
    and they actually built two street cars
  • 00:23:39
    in Seattle disconnected from one another
  • 00:23:41
    in different parts of the city so one is
  • 00:23:43
    in Capitol Hill which is kind of like on
  • 00:23:45
    top of a hill in Seattle and then the
  • 00:23:46
    other one which is famously called the
  • 00:23:49
    or the South Lake Union trolley is
  • 00:23:52
    in the South Lake Union area which is
  • 00:23:54
    basically where like a lot of the Amazon
  • 00:23:55
    offices are and I think they've been
  • 00:23:57
    talking about it since this cars have
  • 00:23:58
    been built like 10 plus years ago to
  • 00:24:01
    connect the two with this kind of
  • 00:24:02
    downtown connection but they've still
  • 00:24:04
    not done it and so Seattle has two
  • 00:24:06
    random street cars that kind of go from
  • 00:24:08
    nowhere to nowhere and I think it's just
  • 00:24:11
    reflective of it's transportation for
  • 00:24:13
    the sake of Transportation you know like
  • 00:24:15
    American cities they get their street
  • 00:24:17
    car and at the same time they like widen
  • 00:24:19
    the interstate by you know eight more
  • 00:24:21
    lanes and you know knock down some like
  • 00:24:24
    historic buildings to build parades and
  • 00:24:26
    stuff you know it's like the serious
  • 00:24:28
    stuff still happening yeah yeah that's
  • 00:24:31
    surreal to me I didn't realize that
  • 00:24:33
    Seattle had two street cars and not
  • 00:24:36
    connected one another that is absolutely
  • 00:24:37
    Bonkers to be that that would ever be a
  • 00:24:40
    thing like I can understand Transit
  • 00:24:42
    projects being done in phases with an
  • 00:24:44
    intention to do other things in the
  • 00:24:45
    future maybe that doesn't come to pass
  • 00:24:47
    but to build two street cars and not
  • 00:24:49
    have them connect to one another seems
  • 00:24:52
    absolutely Bonkers to me but I guess
  • 00:24:54
    that really does speak to the fact that
  • 00:24:56
    they're like we want development over
  • 00:24:57
    here and so we're going to put it over
  • 00:24:59
    here yeah it really reminds me as well
  • 00:25:01
    about the way a lot of these cities do
  • 00:25:03
    bike infrastructure as well like there
  • 00:25:04
    isn't any sort of like plan to you know
  • 00:25:07
    we're going to connect these
  • 00:25:08
    destinations to these neighborhoods
  • 00:25:11
    because these people work over here or
  • 00:25:13
    these kids go to that school and so it
  • 00:25:15
    has to be here or something like that
  • 00:25:17
    they tend to be like this is the street
  • 00:25:19
    that we're doing this year so we're
  • 00:25:20
    going to put bike Lanes on it or this is
  • 00:25:22
    the place that inconveniences drivers
  • 00:25:24
    the least so we'll put it here cuz it's
  • 00:25:26
    politically easy or something like that
  • 00:25:28
    as opposed to this whole overarching
  • 00:25:30
    plan and it feels kind of like the
  • 00:25:33
    street cars are doing the same thing
  • 00:25:35
    they are you know on the topic of not
  • 00:25:38
    inconveniencing drivers these street
  • 00:25:40
    cars are almost always in mixed traffic
  • 00:25:42
    yeah they are and they're basically all
  • 00:25:44
    in generally speaking in central cities
  • 00:25:47
    which means that I guess in the US
  • 00:25:49
    context you know where a lot of downtown
  • 00:25:51
    sadly are kind of a bit dead it is like
  • 00:25:54
    it's not inconveniencing people very
  • 00:25:55
    much it's like well downtown like it's
  • 00:25:57
    just like a fun tourist attraction for
  • 00:25:59
    downtown like we have our little trolley
  • 00:26:01
    Loop that goes around and you know you
  • 00:26:03
    can ride from Bubba Gump Shrimp to the
  • 00:26:05
    fun fair and then you can go around the
  • 00:26:07
    loop and it's all free you can stop off
  • 00:26:09
    at the casino and then maybe go around
  • 00:26:12
    one more time to some I don't know some
  • 00:26:14
    other tourist attraction and you know it
  • 00:26:16
    sounds like a great new urbanist thing
  • 00:26:18
    it's the street car suburbs all over
  • 00:26:20
    again right this is basically Jane
  • 00:26:22
    Jacobs would love it yeah and don't
  • 00:26:24
    worry we bulldozed this neighborhood
  • 00:26:25
    over here to put a parking parcade right
  • 00:26:27
    next to it so park your car and then
  • 00:26:29
    ride the trolley yeah it was remarkable
  • 00:26:31
    there was this guy I followed for a very
  • 00:26:33
    long time he was like an urbanist
  • 00:26:35
    blogger and it was funny because at some
  • 00:26:38
    point what you said reminds me of him I
  • 00:26:41
    was like oh this guy's so interesting
  • 00:26:43
    he's got such wise opinions and then I
  • 00:26:45
    remember reading one time this guy's
  • 00:26:47
    actually become a politician funny
  • 00:26:48
    enough I remember reading one time he's
  • 00:26:50
    like so I've been I forget where he went
  • 00:26:52
    he went to some American city I think
  • 00:26:54
    and he's like I've discovered what our
  • 00:26:56
    city in Canada needs we need a downtown
  • 00:26:59
    parade so that people can drive downtown
  • 00:27:02
    park there and then they can walk around
  • 00:27:04
    downtown they can park their cars and if
  • 00:27:06
    we build it this will fix downtown
  • 00:27:08
    downtown will be perfect with a downtown
  • 00:27:10
    parade and it's actually crazy when you
  • 00:27:13
    go to especially American cities some
  • 00:27:15
    Canadian ones as well how many parkades
  • 00:27:18
    we manage to build we're like we can't
  • 00:27:20
    build a tram but we can build an
  • 00:27:22
    eight-story tall giant concrete parking
  • 00:27:25
    structure that probably costs as much as
  • 00:27:27
    a European tram costs and it's this
  • 00:27:29
    hideous thing in the middle of our city
  • 00:27:32
    yeah and you see that too with these
  • 00:27:34
    lifestyle centers where it's a mall
  • 00:27:36
    developer that takes like one plot of
  • 00:27:38
    land and makes like these fake little
  • 00:27:40
    main streets and stuff with the shops on
  • 00:27:42
    them and then has a huge parking garage
  • 00:27:44
    right behind it all yeah well and
  • 00:27:46
    they're often styled to look like
  • 00:27:48
    European cities which is again it gives
  • 00:27:50
    me the Vibes of Chinese cities trying to
  • 00:27:52
    emulate like Paris or London or
  • 00:27:54
    something like you're really in
  • 00:27:56
    Amsterdam in San Diego well there is a
  • 00:28:00
    strip mall in Edmonton that has like the
  • 00:28:02
    fake Canal houses like in the nether I
  • 00:28:04
    think I've heard people compliment it
  • 00:28:06
    and I'm like how this is the worst thing
  • 00:28:08
    I've ever this is like it's actually so
  • 00:28:11
    embarrassing that Edmonton approved
  • 00:28:12
    building that because it is like it's
  • 00:28:15
    just the thing that those Chinese cities
  • 00:28:17
    do it's just like uh they're like we
  • 00:28:19
    have nice houses in Edmonton too um it's
  • 00:28:24
    really sad and then people tell me
  • 00:28:26
    people are like Edmonton's up and coming
  • 00:28:28
    we are the next urbanist Giant in Canada
  • 00:28:31
    and then it's like okay guys settle down
  • 00:28:34
    okay to avoid being too incredibly
  • 00:28:37
    negative here I want to talk a little
  • 00:28:40
    bit about these street cars well maybe
  • 00:28:42
    we have to hit on one more negative
  • 00:28:44
    thing because some of these have been
  • 00:28:46
    considered failures for sure and I've
  • 00:28:49
    seen the discourse around it some of
  • 00:28:51
    them have been considered to be like
  • 00:28:53
    well you know it's free and it's
  • 00:28:55
    providing a use to these few thousand
  • 00:28:58
    people per day and that's what it is for
  • 00:29:00
    an American Transit project that's
  • 00:29:02
    pretty good yeah right maybe not by the
  • 00:29:04
    standards of most places but getting
  • 00:29:06
    anyone on Transit America is a feat so
  • 00:29:08
    yeah and getting people used to it but
  • 00:29:10
    others have been considered a failure
  • 00:29:12
    and I think like are there going to be
  • 00:29:14
    repercussions to this because I've
  • 00:29:16
    already seen some cities actually
  • 00:29:18
    canceled their projects for street cars
  • 00:29:21
    because they saw what a show this
  • 00:29:23
    was in some other American cities yeah I
  • 00:29:26
    mean I think it will be the case that
  • 00:29:28
    repercussions I think it's really
  • 00:29:29
    unfortunate right it's like because they
  • 00:29:32
    all did it for development now the idea
  • 00:29:34
    of building like an actual modern tram
  • 00:29:37
    system and I say tram because street
  • 00:29:39
    cars is the connotation is just terrible
  • 00:29:42
    yeah universally at this point but I
  • 00:29:44
    think it will stop some cities from
  • 00:29:46
    trying to do something like this but
  • 00:29:49
    something that doesn't make all the same
  • 00:29:51
    stupid mistakes that these systems made
  • 00:29:53
    and so yeah I think it's a really good
  • 00:29:55
    example of something that I think people
  • 00:29:57
    don't appreciate enough which is that
  • 00:29:59
    not every time that there's some
  • 00:30:01
    advocacy push or there's some project
  • 00:30:04
    it's not a universally good thing if you
  • 00:30:06
    build a bike lane and it sucks it might
  • 00:30:08
    actually make people think that bike
  • 00:30:09
    lanes are a bad idea so that's why you
  • 00:30:11
    need to build good bike Lanes yeah well
  • 00:30:13
    I think we see that quite often right
  • 00:30:15
    like we see really lousy bike lanes that
  • 00:30:17
    are unsafe they suddenly stop they have
  • 00:30:19
    unsafe intersections nobody in their
  • 00:30:21
    right mind would use them and then
  • 00:30:23
    people look at them and say I never see
  • 00:30:25
    anybody in the bike lane why are we
  • 00:30:26
    wasting money on this stuff and it's
  • 00:30:28
    like yes but like it's not that then
  • 00:30:32
    they always jump to well nobody's going
  • 00:30:34
    to cycle here I'm like well nobody's
  • 00:30:36
    going to cycle anywhere if it's
  • 00:30:38
    infrastructure but it's really difficult
  • 00:30:40
    when you've got this infrastructure
  • 00:30:42
    built and people don't know what good
  • 00:30:44
    bike infrastructure looks like certainly
  • 00:30:45
    not some suburbanite who's just upset
  • 00:30:48
    about traffic and they're just going to
  • 00:30:49
    look at it say bike lane bad nobody use
  • 00:30:51
    it and trying to get to that
  • 00:30:53
    conversation of well actually it's
  • 00:30:55
    because of this and this and this and
  • 00:30:56
    you know you don't plow them in the
  • 00:30:57
    winter it's not safe and everything else
  • 00:30:59
    that becomes a very difficult
  • 00:31:00
    conversation yeah and I mean I think
  • 00:31:02
    it's a miracle and this is the problem
  • 00:31:04
    is that in a lot of these places getting
  • 00:31:06
    one bike lane built or one tram built is
  • 00:31:08
    a miracle fixing it like basically
  • 00:31:11
    rebuilding it it's just not going to
  • 00:31:13
    happen you know like you had one chance
  • 00:31:16
    and you screwed it up well I mean they
  • 00:31:18
    got their money back from the
  • 00:31:20
    development
  • 00:31:21
    so there is that yeah which at the end
  • 00:31:25
    of the day it's a very positive I mean
  • 00:31:27
    that is valid that is a worthwhile cause
  • 00:31:30
    right you're talking about some of these
  • 00:31:31
    American cities are some of their
  • 00:31:33
    downtowns were really really really
  • 00:31:36
    shitty right like boarded up shops and
  • 00:31:39
    like nobody living there and like the
  • 00:31:41
    streets were dangerous to walk down and
  • 00:31:43
    now they are better so in that sense no
  • 00:31:46
    absolutely and I think that what's valid
  • 00:31:48
    about that is that when you look at the
  • 00:31:49
    places in the US and Canada that don't
  • 00:31:52
    suck for Transit like San Francisco
  • 00:31:55
    Toronto New York Chicago these were all
  • 00:31:58
    places that had that kind of street car
  • 00:32:01
    era urbanism and it's still like driving
  • 00:32:03
    things forward it's still the inertia
  • 00:32:05
    from that is still even though it's
  • 00:32:07
    often now it's buses instead of street
  • 00:32:09
    cars it created the urbanism that can
  • 00:32:11
    support good Transit and that will
  • 00:32:13
    support people using good Transit and so
  • 00:32:17
    you know at the end of the day you're
  • 00:32:18
    not wrong that like if all we got out of
  • 00:32:20
    this was some new dense neighborhoods
  • 00:32:22
    and American city centers that's still
  • 00:32:24
    pretty damn good because like that's
  • 00:32:26
    more than we came into it with
  • 00:32:28
    and that might be able to support new
  • 00:32:30
    transit in the future I think like a lot
  • 00:32:32
    of things we talk about the
  • 00:32:33
    disappointment here is that there was so
  • 00:32:35
    much potential and the potential was
  • 00:32:37
    wasted right I mean that's normally the
  • 00:32:39
    thing that frustrates me the most about
  • 00:32:42
    anytime I get involved in anything in
  • 00:32:43
    North America it's the potential because
  • 00:32:45
    I think about that with Toronto and
  • 00:32:46
    especially like my God that city has so
  • 00:32:48
    much potential you know it I mean you've
  • 00:32:50
    been around it could be not just the
  • 00:32:53
    best city in North America it could be
  • 00:32:55
    like a genuinely great worldclass City
  • 00:32:58
    but it's just not and that missing
  • 00:33:00
    potential is the part that disappoints
  • 00:33:02
    me the most always yeah it's when you
  • 00:33:04
    see your kid and they bring back the B
  • 00:33:06
    you almost wish they failed you're just
  • 00:33:07
    like well
  • 00:33:09
    B you're not even getting an a then okay
  • 00:33:12
    I don't know I'm going to disown you
  • 00:33:13
    like the Delta oh man your new kid is in
  • 00:33:16
    for a hell of a life then yeah it's G to
  • 00:33:18
    be Excellence or nothing but like
  • 00:33:21
    seriously with our cities we can have
  • 00:33:23
    that demand because ultimately people
  • 00:33:25
    choose where they live and if you create
  • 00:33:27
    a shitty City people aren going to want
  • 00:33:29
    to live there you know even Americans
  • 00:33:31
    have choices you know there are good
  • 00:33:33
    urbanist cities in America you know you
  • 00:33:35
    can go live in Chicago or New York and
  • 00:33:37
    it's not perfect but you know you're not
  • 00:33:39
    going to live in Tucson if Tucson can't
  • 00:33:41
    get its crap together and so like these
  • 00:33:43
    cities do need to figure this out
  • 00:33:45
    eventually because yeah news flash
  • 00:33:47
    people actually do like urbanism because
  • 00:33:49
    every time they actually get a taste of
  • 00:33:51
    it you know people go bananas over it
  • 00:33:53
    they make videos they create YouTube
  • 00:33:55
    channels they buy Apartments like these
  • 00:33:58
    things are obviously popular and so I
  • 00:34:01
    think there's a big opportunity well and
  • 00:34:03
    of course there's the whole you know
  • 00:34:05
    strong towns Finance side of things too
  • 00:34:08
    strong towns has talked about how you
  • 00:34:10
    know when they talk about building
  • 00:34:11
    strong towns it's always going into
  • 00:34:13
    these old street car neighborhoods that
  • 00:34:15
    were built a 100 years ago and
  • 00:34:17
    rebuilding there because that's where
  • 00:34:19
    the most potential is and like you were
  • 00:34:21
    suggesting earlier that if at least they
  • 00:34:24
    got the better development out of it it
  • 00:34:26
    is amazing that that these street car
  • 00:34:28
    neighborhoods in the US that were built
  • 00:34:30
    literally a 100 years ago are still some
  • 00:34:33
    of the best neighborhoods today even
  • 00:34:36
    though the street cars were torn out in
  • 00:34:37
    the 30s or the 40s or the 50s they're
  • 00:34:40
    just so effective they're so financially
  • 00:34:44
    solvent they're so just generally like
  • 00:34:47
    they've got such good bones that they've
  • 00:34:50
    been able to carry through even though
  • 00:34:52
    they've been ignored and actually just
  • 00:34:54
    like literally wealth taken out of them
  • 00:34:56
    intentionally for a hundred years
  • 00:34:59
    they're still incredibly powerful and I
  • 00:35:02
    think this is the other side of it that
  • 00:35:04
    just people want this but also the
  • 00:35:07
    cities desperately need this they need
  • 00:35:09
    more neighborhoods that function well
  • 00:35:12
    that aren't just money pits of
  • 00:35:14
    Maintenance forever too and we really do
  • 00:35:17
    need more places like this so is there
  • 00:35:20
    hope for some of these street car
  • 00:35:22
    systems like if they extended them if
  • 00:35:25
    they did more development around them
  • 00:35:28
    what is the sort of best case scenario
  • 00:35:30
    for some of these yeah because my fear
  • 00:35:32
    is that the bills are going to come due
  • 00:35:35
    to you know refresh the tracks to
  • 00:35:37
    refresh the overhead lines in 30 years
  • 00:35:39
    or something and a lot of them are just
  • 00:35:41
    going to say nope they're gone yeah it's
  • 00:35:44
    a real concern and I think nothing will
  • 00:35:46
    be more painful than a lot of these
  • 00:35:48
    cities that had street cars once RI them
  • 00:35:50
    out they're going to get street cars
  • 00:35:52
    again and rip them out again if they
  • 00:35:54
    don't figure this out right yeah I mean
  • 00:35:56
    it's going to happen and the thing
  • 00:35:57
    that's crazy is it's like the first
  • 00:35:58
    systems they ripped out they often were
  • 00:36:00
    pretty good systems you know they were
  • 00:36:02
    big they had like a lot of service and
  • 00:36:04
    stuff these systems suck by comparison
  • 00:36:06
    and so it's like they really have to
  • 00:36:08
    turn them around I mean I think there is
  • 00:36:10
    some promise like as citical as we've
  • 00:36:12
    been like first of all you do get this
  • 00:36:14
    new urbanism and so that can drive
  • 00:36:16
    things a bit and I do think you need to
  • 00:36:18
    have a plan though where it's like okay
  • 00:36:20
    these street cars they're going to keep
  • 00:36:22
    growing as there's new development and
  • 00:36:24
    what they should really do is they
  • 00:36:25
    should try to concentrate development
  • 00:36:27
    around so instead of approving
  • 00:36:29
    Greenfield Suburban development they
  • 00:36:30
    should concentrate the development along
  • 00:36:33
    you know expansions of that street car
  • 00:36:35
    system at the same time you know as
  • 00:36:37
    that's kind of building up the street
  • 00:36:38
    car system they need to get people on it
  • 00:36:40
    so I think you know trying to make it
  • 00:36:43
    part of the transit system I think it's
  • 00:36:45
    crazy that they're often not run by the
  • 00:36:47
    transit systems they probably should all
  • 00:36:49
    be rolled into the transit systems which
  • 00:36:51
    would bring down the cost of operating
  • 00:36:53
    them because you know it's like less
  • 00:36:55
    kind of duplication and stuff but also
  • 00:36:57
    you know like the fair system should be
  • 00:36:59
    integrated and the timetable should be
  • 00:37:01
    integrated so I think all of that stuff
  • 00:37:03
    needs to happen and then I also think
  • 00:37:05
    that there is the potential to start
  • 00:37:06
    that virtuous cycle in a place like
  • 00:37:08
    Portland you've kind of seen it where
  • 00:37:09
    it's like as they build new Central
  • 00:37:11
    neighborhoods they do extend the street
  • 00:37:13
    car out to them and then that
  • 00:37:14
    incentivizes a few more people to get on
  • 00:37:16
    the street car still too little but more
  • 00:37:18
    people on and that creates the rest of
  • 00:37:20
    the virtuous cycle and there is like at
  • 00:37:23
    least one American company that
  • 00:37:25
    basically entire existence is just
  • 00:37:27
    providing ring the street cars for these
  • 00:37:29
    systems and I think that's a promising
  • 00:37:31
    thing as well I remember it's funny one
  • 00:37:33
    of my memories from being in the
  • 00:37:36
    Netherlands I have to painfully say that
  • 00:37:38
    we were driving on the highway but we
  • 00:37:40
    were driving to go visit so it's funny
  • 00:37:42
    one of my like great-grandfathers was
  • 00:37:45
    like involved because he was Canadian
  • 00:37:47
    military he was involved in the
  • 00:37:48
    liberation of the Netherlands yeah my
  • 00:37:49
    grandfather was too yeah during World
  • 00:37:51
    War II so we went out to like the not
  • 00:37:53
    train accessible War Cemetery but on the
  • 00:37:56
    way I remember seeing a massive tram
  • 00:37:59
    Factory that had like images of the
  • 00:38:01
    Amsterdam trams on it from the highway
  • 00:38:04
    and I was like damn that's got to employ
  • 00:38:06
    a lot of people and that's the other
  • 00:38:08
    side of this is there's a bit of an
  • 00:38:09
    industrial policy opportunity where you
  • 00:38:12
    know if you build a lot of these street
  • 00:38:13
    car systems you constantly need street
  • 00:38:16
    cars for the street car systems and
  • 00:38:18
    that's a good industry to have it
  • 00:38:20
    provides good stable jobs and ultimately
  • 00:38:23
    the street cars always need to be
  • 00:38:24
    replaced you know not super frequently
  • 00:38:26
    but if you have a big number of systems
  • 00:38:28
    like you in a lot of European countries
  • 00:38:30
    there's always a need to be building
  • 00:38:32
    some more and so you can just have some
  • 00:38:33
    people employed in the industry of
  • 00:38:35
    building more public transport vehicles
  • 00:38:37
    and so that is a valid you know benefit
  • 00:38:40
    to your nation if you have a lot of
  • 00:38:41
    public transit I mean look at like
  • 00:38:43
    countries like France and China and
  • 00:38:45
    Japan imagine how many people are
  • 00:38:47
    employed just building the vehicles and
  • 00:38:50
    the infrastructure and stuff to sustain
  • 00:38:53
    the transportation systems as opposed to
  • 00:38:55
    like cars where a lot of cars is just
  • 00:38:58
    immediately the cheapest possible
  • 00:39:00
    country to manufacture them in that's
  • 00:39:02
    where production ends up going and
  • 00:39:04
    that's what sustains things it's so sad
  • 00:39:06
    because in Canada you know like the
  • 00:39:08
    governments are obsessed constantly with
  • 00:39:10
    how do we like get the car manufacturers
  • 00:39:12
    to manufacture more cars in the country
  • 00:39:15
    and they seem to ignore the fact that
  • 00:39:16
    like by making cars and by incentivizing
  • 00:39:19
    people buying cars and car
  • 00:39:21
    infrastructure it's like you're
  • 00:39:23
    destroying the planet but if you were
  • 00:39:25
    building public transit Vehicles you
  • 00:39:27
    would be able to do this kind of
  • 00:39:28
    investment in the nation that actually
  • 00:39:30
    makes the country better it improves
  • 00:39:32
    equality it's better for the environment
  • 00:39:35
    so I think there is a real case there
  • 00:39:36
    for kind of like building up industries
  • 00:39:38
    that actually make the world a better
  • 00:39:40
    place as opposed to the Auto industry
  • 00:39:42
    which let's just say doesn't do that
  • 00:39:44
    yeah well a lot of money from cars does
  • 00:39:47
    get sucked out of the country too yeah
  • 00:39:48
    especially in the gasoline and stuff
  • 00:39:50
    exactly and it's just you're literally
  • 00:39:52
    just taking your money and throwing it
  • 00:39:53
    into you know Saudi Arabia which is
  • 00:39:56
    Bonkers but that actually brings me to
  • 00:39:58
    something else that I wanted to talk
  • 00:39:59
    about that you reminded me of that one
  • 00:40:01
    of the issues I often see with transit
  • 00:40:03
    in North America is that it tends to be
  • 00:40:05
    the one-off project so they'll do the
  • 00:40:07
    transit project they'll bring on a bunch
  • 00:40:10
    of new people they'll bring on an
  • 00:40:11
    expensive consultant from Europe they'll
  • 00:40:14
    do the transit project everybody makes a
  • 00:40:16
    lot of mistakes because as I've said
  • 00:40:18
    before it's Baby's First Transit project
  • 00:40:20
    but then they're done the project and
  • 00:40:21
    then all those people go on to something
  • 00:40:23
    else and then like 10 years later they
  • 00:40:25
    decide to do another Transit project and
  • 00:40:27
    all the people that worked on the first
  • 00:40:28
    one are no longer there anymore they've
  • 00:40:30
    gone off to other Industries and other
  • 00:40:32
    things and now they do it all over again
  • 00:40:35
    they bring the expensive consultant in
  • 00:40:36
    from Europe they hire a bunch of people
  • 00:40:38
    who have never built Transit before and
  • 00:40:40
    I think this is one thing we really have
  • 00:40:42
    to start doing in North America is to
  • 00:40:44
    just never stop building Transit
  • 00:40:46
    projects there are enough Transit
  • 00:40:48
    projects that are necessary in North
  • 00:40:50
    America for the foreseeable future for
  • 00:40:53
    all of our lifetimes and probably our
  • 00:40:55
    grandkids lifetimes we're never going to
  • 00:40:58
    be able to build it fast enough to make
  • 00:41:00
    up for all that we've lost and so we
  • 00:41:02
    should be like I noticed this when I
  • 00:41:04
    went to taipe where you know taipe I
  • 00:41:07
    used to live there in 2010 2011 and they
  • 00:41:10
    haven't stopped building Transit
  • 00:41:12
    projects since the Metro just keeps
  • 00:41:14
    building more lines more extensions more
  • 00:41:16
    everything and they're getting so good
  • 00:41:19
    at it like the cost is coming way down
  • 00:41:22
    because they're getting economies of
  • 00:41:23
    scale they're getting people who have
  • 00:41:25
    done this for their entire careers
  • 00:41:27
    they're like experts in it so they're
  • 00:41:29
    banging out Transit at a fraction of the
  • 00:41:32
    cost that we pay for it in North America
  • 00:41:35
    and it's just getting better and better
  • 00:41:37
    and better every single time I go there
  • 00:41:38
    yeah I mean I think that this is part of
  • 00:41:40
    it is that that kind of meta strategy is
  • 00:41:43
    not something that gets thought about
  • 00:41:44
    because when you look at it even the us
  • 00:41:46
    today has enough Transit projects that
  • 00:41:48
    if they created a national Transit
  • 00:41:50
    building agency like I know there is the
  • 00:41:53
    FDA or whatever but they oversee but
  • 00:41:55
    they don't do the actual work if they
  • 00:41:57
    wanted like some countries like France
  • 00:41:59
    for example they do basically have like
  • 00:42:01
    a National Authority that goes to the
  • 00:42:03
    different cities and builds the thing if
  • 00:42:05
    the US wanted it could build that but I
  • 00:42:08
    think the problem is it sees Transit and
  • 00:42:10
    I think this could even be its entire
  • 00:42:11
    own podcast but the US does do that but
  • 00:42:15
    it does it for highways it has these
  • 00:42:17
    like State dos that have Highway
  • 00:42:19
    building experts they go and they have
  • 00:42:22
    like a 30-year plans and they're
  • 00:42:24
    constantly working on different projects
  • 00:42:26
    and why does that happen because I think
  • 00:42:27
    Americans and American politicians
  • 00:42:30
    understand that highways are important
  • 00:42:32
    people actually use highways you know
  • 00:42:34
    they have experience using them and so
  • 00:42:36
    they're like we got to keep investing we
  • 00:42:38
    got to keep building and the same is
  • 00:42:40
    just not true of Transit so often it's
  • 00:42:42
    seen as like a jobs program like instead
  • 00:42:44
    of even though I know I did mention that
  • 00:42:46
    that could be a benefit it shouldn't be
  • 00:42:47
    the primary benefit you know like the
  • 00:42:50
    point is if you have a good transit
  • 00:42:51
    system you might get some jobs not you
  • 00:42:54
    should get some jobs and you might get a
  • 00:42:56
    good Transit System you know like the
  • 00:42:58
    main point of Transit is transportation
  • 00:43:00
    it's getting people to move around and I
  • 00:43:02
    think that so much of the problems you
  • 00:43:05
    see in North America and America are
  • 00:43:08
    it's literally just think of it and
  • 00:43:10
    think like you know would this happen if
  • 00:43:12
    it was a highway would they change the
  • 00:43:14
    design to capitulate to the neighbors if
  • 00:43:17
    it was a highway or would they just
  • 00:43:19
    expropriate the neighbors and move them
  • 00:43:20
    out of the way you know like I think so
  • 00:43:22
    often the differences in how these two
  • 00:43:25
    things are approached it tells you
  • 00:43:27
    everything you need to know about what's
  • 00:43:29
    prioritized and why things happen the
  • 00:43:31
    way they do happen yeah I remember
  • 00:43:34
    reading about the cost overruns of the
  • 00:43:37
    California High-Speed Rail but there was
  • 00:43:39
    also an interstate project that also had
  • 00:43:41
    cost overruns that were very similar in
  • 00:43:43
    size and scope and let nobody literally
  • 00:43:45
    nobody was talking about them whereas
  • 00:43:47
    like the California highspeed rail was
  • 00:43:49
    the worst thing ever not that it's good
  • 00:43:51
    that it has these cost overruns but the
  • 00:43:52
    point is when the interstates have huge
  • 00:43:54
    cost overruns and schedule problems
  • 00:43:57
    nobody talks about it nobody cares and I
  • 00:43:59
    think it's reflective of the fact that
  • 00:44:01
    like because people in the US use
  • 00:44:04
    interstates they're go like well there's
  • 00:44:06
    a lot of overruns but at least it's
  • 00:44:08
    going to be like a useful Highway
  • 00:44:09
    whereas they like highspeed train that
  • 00:44:12
    sounds like a boond doggle or whatever
  • 00:44:14
    like that sounds like something no one
  • 00:44:16
    that's for Europeans and the Japanese I
  • 00:44:19
    just want a bigger
  • 00:44:21
    SUV yeah and then the sad truth is that
  • 00:44:23
    the US and Canada too are so overbuilt
  • 00:44:26
    that we could stop building roads for 50
  • 00:44:28
    years 100 years and it would actually be
  • 00:44:30
    enough capacity provided we actually
  • 00:44:32
    started building Transit instead like
  • 00:44:35
    you don't need that much Road capacity
  • 00:44:37
    that's the other thing that's amazing I
  • 00:44:38
    don't need to go into it but you know in
  • 00:44:40
    the Netherlands where they're basically
  • 00:44:41
    turning almost all roads into one lane
  • 00:44:44
    per direction for cars because there's
  • 00:44:46
    no benefit to having more than that you
  • 00:44:48
    improve the intersections yeah because
  • 00:44:50
    you really just need to have the ability
  • 00:44:53
    for a car to get there but that's like
  • 00:44:55
    the limit you just need to be able to
  • 00:44:57
    technically get there and then from
  • 00:44:59
    there the goal should just be to like
  • 00:45:00
    make that number as small as possible
  • 00:45:03
    and as you say it's actually incredibly
  • 00:45:05
    efficient to do this you think about it
  • 00:45:07
    when you have one lane in One Direction
  • 00:45:10
    right how much more access do you get
  • 00:45:13
    with the Ontario Highway 401 with 18
  • 00:45:16
    Lanes in each Direction how much does
  • 00:45:17
    that actually expand people's ability to
  • 00:45:19
    go places right you actually can get to
  • 00:45:22
    less places because the traffic is worse
  • 00:45:24
    on the 401 than some random one lane in
  • 00:45:27
    went Direction Street in the Netherlands
  • 00:45:29
    because of the Alternatives and because
  • 00:45:31
    of the intelligent system design instead
  • 00:45:34
    of just thinking about like we need more
  • 00:45:36
    Lanes in this one given location yeah I
  • 00:45:38
    mean and highways are a whole other
  • 00:45:40
    thing of course most of the one Lanes in
  • 00:45:41
    the Netherlands are within cities for
  • 00:45:43
    what it's worth I mean we do have
  • 00:45:44
    multi-lane highways but not 18 Lane
  • 00:45:46
    highways either you
  • 00:45:48
    know but yeah I mean I guess this really
  • 00:45:50
    just speaks to it it is a little
  • 00:45:53
    frustrating to see these street car
  • 00:45:55
    systems that were built because yeah
  • 00:45:57
    it's great to have more Transit and it's
  • 00:45:59
    great to Spur that development and again
  • 00:46:01
    maybe that development is a benefit unto
  • 00:46:03
    itself but my fear is that it'll just
  • 00:46:05
    make it harder and harder to build more
  • 00:46:08
    transit in the future that isn't buses
  • 00:46:10
    yeah in any of these cities because
  • 00:46:12
    they'll point to it and say you know
  • 00:46:14
    there's 3,000 people riding that per day
  • 00:46:16
    why do we care but anyway I think that's
  • 00:46:18
    probably where we should cap it off any
  • 00:46:20
    last thoughts on that and where these
  • 00:46:22
    cities can go and what they can do no I
  • 00:46:24
    mean I just think that the thing that
  • 00:46:26
    makes cities is good is not the
  • 00:46:28
    infrastructure they have it's the
  • 00:46:30
    behaviors that they support you know
  • 00:46:33
    like you could have a city that just has
  • 00:46:35
    a lot of buses but as long as those
  • 00:46:37
    buses are good and the street design is
  • 00:46:39
    good you don't need to spend a lot of
  • 00:46:41
    money to have the city be good it's
  • 00:46:43
    really about like do people choose to
  • 00:46:45
    take the bus or do they not choose to
  • 00:46:46
    take the bus that's most of the
  • 00:46:48
    difference between you know like a great
  • 00:46:50
    City and a terrible City the nice
  • 00:46:52
    infrastructure you know that helps
  • 00:46:54
    support it but how do you get to those
  • 00:46:56
    behaviors and the infrastructure you
  • 00:46:58
    know is often what drives people to
  • 00:47:00
    those behaviors but it's also policy and
  • 00:47:02
    it's also things like restricting Lanes
  • 00:47:04
    or removing infrastructure it's actually
  • 00:47:06
    the I don't know a lot of these street
  • 00:47:07
    car systems feel like the cheap empty
  • 00:47:10
    calories of urbanism and you know we
  • 00:47:12
    need more vegetables we need more of the
  • 00:47:14
    hard work instead of these cheap
  • 00:47:16
    calories right Transit that takes people
  • 00:47:18
    to the places they need to go yeah and
  • 00:47:22
    not just free or fancy looking yeah all
  • 00:47:26
    right well thank thanks so much that was
  • 00:47:27
    a great conversation Rees and we will
  • 00:47:30
    talk about trams and lrts again because
  • 00:47:33
    I know there's another at least another
  • 00:47:35
    LRT subject that we need to talk about
  • 00:47:37
    and probably a couple more too yeah so
  • 00:47:40
    well thanks for having me on yeah thanks
  • 00:47:41
    for being here that's all we have on the
  • 00:47:44
    agenda for today I hope you enjoyed
  • 00:47:46
    listening to it almost as much as we
  • 00:47:48
    enjoyed making it I really enjoy talking
  • 00:47:51
    to other content creators about what
  • 00:47:53
    they find interesting and a lot of the
  • 00:47:54
    people I have on this podcast I met
  • 00:47:56
    since joining nebula nebula is the
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标签
  • streetcars
  • urban development
  • public transit
  • Obama era
  • Portland
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  • transportation policy
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