The Origins and Rise of the Slavs | Dr. Florin Curta
摘要
TLDRIn this episode of 'The Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages,' Nick Barksdale welcomes Dr. Florin Curta to delve into the fascinating history of the Slavic peoples. Dr. Curta, an expert in medieval history and archaeology, discusses the origins, language, and cultural influences of the Slavs, challenging traditional migration theories by proposing alternative linguistic pathways like koine. The conversation explores early descriptions by Byzantine authors, revealing biases that shaped historical narratives. Dr. Curta addresses archaeological findings and the linguistic spread of Slavic languages, suggesting they were more influenced by geographical and political interactions than by mass migrations. The discussion also touches on how Slavic culture has evolved, highlighting its impact and legacy in modern Eastern Europe, evident in language and cultural identity. Dr. Curta emphasizes the complex interplay between different cultures and languages as key to understanding the Slavic past.
心得
- 🎤 Introduction of Dr. Florin Curta by host Nick Barksdale, discussing Slavic history.
- 📜 Examination of the Slavs' historical and linguistic origins by Dr. Curta.
- 🗺️ Discussion on the debated geographical origins of the Slavs.
- 📚 Insights into the biases of early sources recording Slavic history.
- 🏺 Examination of archaeological evidence linked to Slavic cultural identity.
- 🗣️ Exploration of the spread of Slavic languages through non-migratory theories.
- 🔍 Investigation into the historical narratives constructed by external observers.
- 🌍 Analysis of Slavic cultural influence and interactions with neighboring cultures.
- 🧬 Challenges and limitations of using DNA studies to trace Slavic origins.
- 🕍 The enduring cultural and linguistic legacy of the Slavs in Eastern Europe.
时间轴
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The host, Nick Barksdale, introduces his guest, Dr. Florin Curta, who specializes in the history of the Slavic peoples. Dr. Curta briefly shares his academic background, highlighting his studies and publications, particularly focusing on the origins of the Slavs.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Dr. Curta discusses his role at the University of Florida and his contributions to the study of Eastern Europe and Byzantine history. He emphasizes his efforts to promote Eastern European scholars and young academics in the field.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
As the discussion turns to the term 'Slav', Dr. Curta highlights its historical emergence in Greek and Latin sources. He points out the absence of evidence that ancient populations self-identified as 'Slavs', suggesting the term was externally applied.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Dr. Curta clarifies the complexity of identifying Slavs, noting the lack of archaeological indicators directly tied to the Slavs. He emphasizes the constructed nature of associating ethnicity with material culture in archaeology.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Dr. Curta refutes the notion of a singular pre-Slavic identity, challenging ancient historical accounts linking early groups in Eastern Europe to the Slavs. He critiques the tendency to retroactively assign modern national identities to ancient peoples.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
The dialogue examines theories on the Slavic homeland, highlighting linguistic studies suggesting an origin near the Pripyat River in Ukraine and Belarus. Dr. Curta critiques archaeological assumptions and migration models based on these theories.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Addressing the linguistic spread of Slavic languages, Dr. Curta argues against migration as the primary mechanism. He suggests social and political interactions facilitated the spread, with non-migratory processes like lingua franca playing a significant role.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Dr. Curta notes Slavic culture's limited spread primarily due to its non-codified nature and discusses the influence of surrounding cultures. He highlights cross-cultural exchanges affecting language, societal structures, and material culture.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
The segment covers the ancient ethnic terminology for Slavs and their lack of an internally-generated origin myth. Dr. Curta compares this with external labels such as 'Wends' and mentions the varied historical stories crafted by later Slavic groups.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Dr. Curta addresses the intricate and sometimes flawed role of DNA evidence in tracing Slavic origins. He critiques modern tendencies to correlate contemporary populations with ancient ones, highlighting the limitations of genetic diachronic studies.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
External sources, predominantly Byzantine authors, described Slavs through a military lens. Procopius and others documented their warfare styles and cultural perceptions, displaying a general bias originating from geographic and climatic theories.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
Frankish and papal sources also depicted Slavs as military threats or geographic entities. Accounts from these sources were often limited to interactions or conflicts, portraying a biased viewpoint reflecting contemporary geopolitical concerns.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
The religious beliefs of Slavs pre-Christianity were predominantly animistic, per both textual and archaeological evidence. However, descriptions by Greek and later Christian sources were often interpreted through their theological lens, misrepresenting native myths.
- 01:05:00 - 01:13:32
Dr. Curta concludes by emphasizing the legacy of Slavic languages and the cultural identity fostered through the liturgical and literary creations like Old Church Slavonic. This has left a lasting impact on the cultural history and identity of modern Slavic nations.
思维导图
常见问题
Who is the guest on the show hosted by Nick Barksdale?
The guest is Dr. Florin Curta.
What is the main topic of discussion in the episode?
The history and origins of Slavic peoples.
What is Dr. Florin Curta's area of expertise?
Medieval history and archaeology, with a focus on Slavic peoples.
What language theory does Dr. Curta discuss about the Slavs?
The spread of Slavic languages through mechanisms other than migration, such as koine and contact linguistics.
How does Dr. Curta view early descriptions of Slavs by Byzantine authors?
As potentially biased and influenced by their own cultural perspectives.
What significant point does Dr. Curta make regarding archaeological evidence of Slavic culture?
The evidence often contradicts the theory of a large-scale migration from the Slavic homeland.
What explanation does Dr. Curta give for the origins of Slavic languages?
They likely emerged through interactions among Balto-Slavic, Iranian, and Thracian languages rather than from a single migration.
What challenges are faced in using DNA to study Slavic origins?
Limitations due to cremation practices and the complexity of reading DNA without clear historical timelines.
What is a key takeaway from Dr. Curta's discussion about Slavic cultural influence?
Slavic culture and language were influenced by neighboring cultures and also left an enduring legacy in Eastern Europe.
How does the legacy of Slavic peoples extend into modern times according to Dr. Curta?
Through linguistic contributions and influences on national identities and cultures in Eastern Europe.
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- 00:00:41ladies and gentlemen
- 00:00:43welcome to the study of antiquity and
- 00:00:46the middle ages as always i'm your host
- 00:00:49nick barksdale and today we are joined
- 00:00:52by
- 00:00:52a very special guest some of my
- 00:00:55subscribers
- 00:00:57had told me about a professor that i had
- 00:00:59to have on my show
- 00:01:01and so i looked him up his credentials
- 00:01:04and his
- 00:01:04area of work and focus is amazing and i
- 00:01:07knew
- 00:01:08we had to have him on this channel and
- 00:01:11so i reached out
- 00:01:12he has been so kind and courteous and he
- 00:01:14has even given us some of his time here
- 00:01:16today
- 00:01:17ladies and gentlemen i introduce dr
- 00:01:20florin curta
- 00:01:21dr curta thank you so much for coming on
- 00:01:23the show today thank you for having me
- 00:01:25and it's a pleasure
- 00:01:26i mean i've never used the channel of
- 00:01:28communication like this so
- 00:01:30uh bear with me i'll try my best today's
- 00:01:32episode
- 00:01:33is going to be fascinating and it's
- 00:01:36going to dive into a subject that many
- 00:01:38of you love including myself
- 00:01:40and it's not just the history of the
- 00:01:43slavic peoples
- 00:01:44but we're going to go a little bit
- 00:01:45further back and focus on their origins
- 00:01:49but before we begin dr kurta
- 00:01:52for my subscribers who may not be
- 00:01:54familiar with you and your work
- 00:01:56would you tell us a little bit about
- 00:01:57yourself today so
- 00:01:59um i have a phd in history from western
- 00:02:02michigan uni
- 00:02:03university and two mas one in history
- 00:02:07from the same university and the other
- 00:02:08one in medieval studies from cornell
- 00:02:10university
- 00:02:12um i arrived here at the university of
- 00:02:14florida the campus
- 00:02:16uh the quad on the campus of which you
- 00:02:18see right behind me
- 00:02:19um in 1999 so i've been teaching
- 00:02:23here for 20 plus um
- 00:02:26it's um it has been a uh
- 00:02:30i mean i i my dissertation was on the
- 00:02:33early slugs but it has been a
- 00:02:35journey in the sense that although i
- 00:02:36came with certain ideas about
- 00:02:38research in mind my students challenged
- 00:02:40me to go
- 00:02:41way beyond that the first book which was
- 00:02:44the
- 00:02:44citation i just mentioned was published
- 00:02:46in 2001 under the title
- 00:02:48uh the making of the slavs and that got
- 00:02:51the
- 00:02:52herbert baxter adams prize of the um
- 00:02:56american historical association in 2003.
- 00:02:59i then published a number of books
- 00:03:02let's say uh on a more
- 00:03:06broader regional basis uh 2006 south
- 00:03:10eastern europe um recently 2019
- 00:03:13a companion with brill on the whole of
- 00:03:15eastern europe
- 00:03:16two volumes i published
- 00:03:20this year actually although the um the
- 00:03:23book came out
- 00:03:24later last year a sequel so to speak to
- 00:03:27the first book on the slavs
- 00:03:29called slavs in the making you see the
- 00:03:32first book
- 00:03:32actually got um its focus was more on
- 00:03:35the
- 00:03:36um lower danube region now at the border
- 00:03:39between romania and balk and bulgaria
- 00:03:41the further to the north
- 00:03:42into ukraine and the eastern part of
- 00:03:44romania the republic of moldova
- 00:03:46but not not too far to the north so a
- 00:03:49lot of the people that actually
- 00:03:50wrote reviews or talked to me want to
- 00:03:53know what
- 00:03:54do i have to say about those uh regions
- 00:03:57father from the from the danube and
- 00:03:59father from the raider of the
- 00:04:00of the byzantine sources early byzantine
- 00:04:02sources so the second book
- 00:04:03which as i said uh was published this
- 00:04:05year by roblich
- 00:04:07came out as a response to that as also
- 00:04:09as a response to
- 00:04:11critiques about the
- 00:04:14the way in which i dealt with the
- 00:04:16problems of language maybe we're going
- 00:04:18to have the upward the opportunity to uh
- 00:04:19discuss more of those issues problem of
- 00:04:22sources and how
- 00:04:23how a historian who has to wear many
- 00:04:25hats
- 00:04:26uh can deal with those different kinds
- 00:04:29of
- 00:04:30evidence so i i'm a professor of uh
- 00:04:33medieval history and archaeology at the
- 00:04:34university of florida
- 00:04:36i am also the co-editor of two series
- 00:04:38one at brielle
- 00:04:40very successful on um east central and
- 00:04:42eastern europe in the middle ages 450 to
- 00:04:441450.
- 00:04:46we just published volume number 75
- 00:04:49so it's it's very very successful very
- 00:04:52large source it
- 00:04:53has two purposes number one to actually
- 00:04:55bring scholars from the
- 00:04:57region uh who do not necessarily or
- 00:04:59always write in
- 00:05:00english to the focus uh to the attention
- 00:05:03of the
- 00:05:04um english-speaking audience either in
- 00:05:07america or in
- 00:05:08in england and
- 00:05:11promote on the same stage a number of
- 00:05:13young scholars
- 00:05:14primarily from america who have dealt
- 00:05:17with topics
- 00:05:18related to geographically
- 00:05:19chronologically with eastern europe in
- 00:05:21the middle ages the other series of
- 00:05:23which have been the co-editor is that
- 00:05:25um milan it's the
- 00:05:28uh series as a new trends in the
- 00:05:32byzantine history so it's actually
- 00:05:35a a a series focused only on byzantine
- 00:05:38history whereas the other one is general
- 00:05:41for the entire region
- 00:05:42and to my subscribers before we dive in
- 00:05:45at the end of this episode don't forget
- 00:05:47check out the links in the video
- 00:05:49description below it's going to take you
- 00:05:51to a variety
- 00:05:53of sources to where you can really dive
- 00:05:55in and take advantage
- 00:05:56of all the awesome work dr curta has
- 00:05:59done
- 00:06:00and what he is currently working on i
- 00:06:02can't recommend it enough
- 00:06:03give him all of your support and now
- 00:06:06we're gonna go for it when you hear the
- 00:06:08term
- 00:06:08slav and especially in reference to late
- 00:06:11antiquity
- 00:06:12and the early middle ages based on your
- 00:06:15knowledge and your research and even
- 00:06:17your imagination
- 00:06:18what comes to your mind actually the
- 00:06:21word
- 00:06:21slav as we have it um is a late
- 00:06:25formation now the earliest uh
- 00:06:27term that came in the sources is clavin
- 00:06:30actually in greeks
- 00:06:31and slav or slavos is a
- 00:06:34contraction of that that is attested a
- 00:06:37little later both
- 00:06:38first in greek of course and then in
- 00:06:40latin so
- 00:06:41uh the first thing that i think of when
- 00:06:44i hear this word is
- 00:06:45the history of the words you know there
- 00:06:47is what what
- 00:06:49caused that name to pop up in the
- 00:06:51sources and
- 00:06:52when did it and under what circumstances
- 00:06:55um there is a very interesting um
- 00:06:59angle to this problem the naming that is
- 00:07:02namely
- 00:07:02that um we don't have any evidence that
- 00:07:06any particular group of
- 00:07:07people in other words uh uh
- 00:07:09territorially
- 00:07:11defined precisely right within a certain
- 00:07:13region at a certain moment in time
- 00:07:15call themselves by that name
- 00:07:17linguistically speaking
- 00:07:18uh the word is clearly not a greek
- 00:07:20origin at least because that
- 00:07:22those two consonants s and l next to
- 00:07:25each other
- 00:07:26are very non-greek which is why uh in
- 00:07:28greek as well as in latin
- 00:07:30uh between the two consonants there's a
- 00:07:32c or k as it were
- 00:07:33right so sklavenoi uh schlavi right
- 00:07:37um that's because in greek it would have
- 00:07:39been almost impossible to pronounce the
- 00:07:41sla
- 00:07:41right that's not that's not a sound that
- 00:07:43sounds from familiar to a greek
- 00:07:45so that that seems to be a good
- 00:07:47indication that the name itself is
- 00:07:49um when people do this or native origin
- 00:07:52exactly
- 00:07:52what it meant in whatever the language
- 00:07:54from which it was taken
- 00:07:56it's a huge debate some argue that it
- 00:07:59can it came from
- 00:08:01slavic from a slavic language and it is
- 00:08:03connected to the word slava
- 00:08:05glory so those are the glorious ones if
- 00:08:08you want
- 00:08:08others claim that in fact the origin is
- 00:08:10the word slova which means
- 00:08:12word so in other words this is the
- 00:08:13people that speak this language as
- 00:08:15opposed to the other one
- 00:08:16there's a there's there's a very
- 00:08:18interesting theory here namely that
- 00:08:20um in in slavic language specifically in
- 00:08:23the east slavic dialects of the middle
- 00:08:25ages much later times
- 00:08:27the speakers of germanic languages
- 00:08:30specifically germans
- 00:08:31uh were called nienze which actually
- 00:08:33means dummies
- 00:08:34you know there is those are the people
- 00:08:36who speak a language you cannot
- 00:08:37understand
- 00:08:37a phenomenon very similar to what caused
- 00:08:40the greeks the ancient greeks to call
- 00:08:43persians and others
- 00:08:44barbarians uh varvari actually
- 00:08:47means in greek those that mobility you
- 00:08:50cannot understand what they're saying
- 00:08:51in other words it's not a language that
- 00:08:54we people
- 00:08:55you know we the no not the king group
- 00:08:57use
- 00:08:58the problem with this theory um about
- 00:09:01names is that actually
- 00:09:02it's there's no way no no shirt of
- 00:09:04evidence this is just just just as a
- 00:09:06credible hypothesis as any other however
- 00:09:09at much later times
- 00:09:10right so beginning roughly with the high
- 00:09:13middle ages late middle ages and even
- 00:09:15early modern period certain groups
- 00:09:17within this vast area in eastern europe
- 00:09:20uh
- 00:09:20inhabited by people uh speaking slavic
- 00:09:22languages
- 00:09:24took that name and some of them remained
- 00:09:25to this day or even were even given to
- 00:09:27the territories in which those
- 00:09:28those people live both slovenia and
- 00:09:31slovakia
- 00:09:32are called so on the basis of this word
- 00:09:35a few people know that in the
- 00:09:37uh middle ages as late as the 13th
- 00:09:40century
- 00:09:41way up in in the north in the
- 00:09:43northwestern part of present-day russia
- 00:09:45in the area of the town of novgorod
- 00:09:48another group
- 00:09:48slovenes uh leave there so there's a
- 00:09:51there's a tendency to see
- 00:09:53uh the name itself being applied to
- 00:09:57groups that were right on the boundary
- 00:09:59between the slavic speaking area and
- 00:10:01some other area right in other words
- 00:10:04an area in which speakers of some other
- 00:10:05languages lived
- 00:10:07um in in the case of slovenia and
- 00:10:09slovakia clearly with the
- 00:10:11with the germanic or in the case of
- 00:10:13slovakia with
- 00:10:15hungarian speakers it's very interesting
- 00:10:17in the middle
- 00:10:18right so let's say in bulgaria in the
- 00:10:21balkans or in
- 00:10:22in ukraine uh those are not names that
- 00:10:25were i mean
- 00:10:26most of the names that we know from the
- 00:10:27russian primary chronicles tribes right
- 00:10:29have nothing to do with the worst love
- 00:10:31and in fact the author of the russian
- 00:10:33primary use of chronicle uses the word
- 00:10:35as an umbrella term
- 00:10:36so to to to end up my
- 00:10:39answer to your question what i think of
- 00:10:42uh based on my
- 00:10:43knowledge and research is equal is an
- 00:10:45umbrella term
- 00:10:46not unlike what one might think of the
- 00:10:49word kels
- 00:10:50when hearing it that is excellent yeah
- 00:10:52the whole time you were talking about
- 00:10:53that i kept thinking about that exact
- 00:10:55thing you know we use the term celtic
- 00:10:57or even you know like native american it
- 00:10:59encompasses absolutely
- 00:11:00so many different peoples probably
- 00:11:03probably the better
- 00:11:04even better parallel is what is
- 00:11:08called today hispanic right in america
- 00:11:11specifically
- 00:11:12which is an exonym that means a name
- 00:11:14given from the outside
- 00:11:16i don't know if anyone who is called a
- 00:11:18hispanic from the outside calling him or
- 00:11:20herself hispanic on a normal basis
- 00:11:22because those people among themselves
- 00:11:24will always be peruvians colombians
- 00:11:26ecuadorian whatever
- 00:11:27right in other words they'll tend to go
- 00:11:29to the identity that is local
- 00:11:32if they will take the hispanic identity
- 00:11:33it will always be in relationship some
- 00:11:35kind of relationship to the state
- 00:11:37funding rights you know group
- 00:11:41identity larger than ecuadorians
- 00:11:44or whatever very similar in the case of
- 00:11:47the slavs it was most likely a name
- 00:11:48given from the outside
- 00:11:50probably based on some word or some
- 00:11:52local name but
- 00:11:53clearly that went uh out and it was used
- 00:11:56as an umbrella term for people who
- 00:11:57otherwise identified themselves
- 00:11:59very locally as derevlians or severians
- 00:12:03or radhimichi or tiversi or
- 00:12:05you know whatever other tribal names
- 00:12:06they were there so they were they were
- 00:12:08slavs from the outside not from the
- 00:12:09inside so to speak when it comes to
- 00:12:11defining
- 00:12:12slavs from a historical context or even
- 00:12:16an archaeological one
- 00:12:18one of my patrons and subscriber alex
- 00:12:20had asked
- 00:12:21how are we able to actually tell let me
- 00:12:24let me draw a distinction first all
- 00:12:25right since see there were two angles
- 00:12:27from which
- 00:12:28he asked this question he he mentioned
- 00:12:30historical context archaeological
- 00:12:32context
- 00:12:32you can tell from a historical context
- 00:12:34to the extent that you have written
- 00:12:36sources
- 00:12:36now there there are there are at least
- 00:12:39two problems
- 00:12:40right number one uh most of the
- 00:12:44early sources that we have about the
- 00:12:45early slabs are not written by
- 00:12:47themselves
- 00:12:47right so you really have to wait quite
- 00:12:50long depending upon the angle you want
- 00:12:53to take here
- 00:12:54uh you can think of the 10th century uh
- 00:12:57le tre the royal court in preslav in
- 00:13:00bulgaria writing under the rule of
- 00:13:02simeon the great
- 00:13:04writing as it were translating from
- 00:13:06greek into orchard slavonic right
- 00:13:08and as they were writing that they did
- 00:13:10mention slavs right they did not they
- 00:13:12never mentioned it
- 00:13:13in um they had in mind as
- 00:13:16a linguistic group in other words to
- 00:13:18them slavs were those who spoke
- 00:13:20what we now call orchards right uh or
- 00:13:23you can wait for the 12th century 12th
- 00:13:25century for the last reduction of the
- 00:13:27russian primary chronicle
- 00:13:29and there of course the slavs are you
- 00:13:31know at the beginning and there's even a
- 00:13:32story it's the only maybe not the only
- 00:13:34but the first story that we have
- 00:13:36about where the slabs came from what's
- 00:13:39the origin and so on so forth
- 00:13:40and again it's very interesting that uh
- 00:13:43the author
- 00:13:44or the authors i should say of the
- 00:13:46russian primary chronicle
- 00:13:48did not think of the slavs as a unique
- 00:13:50group they or or initially they thought
- 00:13:52of it as a as a
- 00:13:53as a group they then split into
- 00:13:54different tribes right
- 00:13:56um so it's very difficult to pinpoint
- 00:13:59exactly
- 00:14:00what specific authors meant by slavs
- 00:14:03it seems to me if you are um serious
- 00:14:06about actually looking at the
- 00:14:07the the primary sources of the region
- 00:14:09sources it's always
- 00:14:11a a moving target and there are reasons
- 00:14:14for that obviously namely that there is
- 00:14:16a certain distance between the object
- 00:14:18described and the author
- 00:14:19most of those authors do not go in the
- 00:14:21field to interview people hey
- 00:14:23are you a slav can you tell me something
- 00:14:25about yourself there's no such thing
- 00:14:26right most of them were writing from the
- 00:14:29comfort of their
- 00:14:30of their chairs uh somewhere in
- 00:14:31constantinople like procopius and
- 00:14:34giordanes or in a monastery near kiev
- 00:14:36like uh
- 00:14:37the authors of the russian primary
- 00:14:38economic condition i mentioned to you
- 00:14:40uh so they would never uh either close
- 00:14:44either in geographic
- 00:14:45or in most of the time especially later
- 00:14:47sources
- 00:14:48in chronological terms now with
- 00:14:50archaeology
- 00:14:51we run into relating to problem two but
- 00:14:53of different nature
- 00:14:54we're running into a theoretical problem
- 00:14:56regardless of
- 00:14:58what ethnic group we're talking about
- 00:14:59here slavs franks
- 00:15:01celts vikings you name it there is no
- 00:15:04such thing
- 00:15:05no object no pottery no fibula no
- 00:15:08bracelet
- 00:15:09made in slavia right so there is no
- 00:15:11description like that so
- 00:15:13uh the link between a certain ethnicity
- 00:15:16and material culture
- 00:15:17is always a construct of modern scholars
- 00:15:20modern archaeologists right
- 00:15:21to the extent i don't want to discuss
- 00:15:23right now that it is a valid
- 00:15:25question some some archaeologists even
- 00:15:27deny that the
- 00:15:28ethnicity existed as we know it now in
- 00:15:31the middle ages i'm not one of those
- 00:15:32people
- 00:15:32right but i i would i would warn a
- 00:15:35against the quick
- 00:15:36uh equivalence between any uh objects of
- 00:15:39material culture
- 00:15:41and a specific ethnic group that we
- 00:15:43nowadays create
- 00:15:45and most likely people in the past too
- 00:15:47create ethnic boundaries via material
- 00:15:49cultures always a function of a certain
- 00:15:52political context specific circumstances
- 00:15:55at the specific moment in time and place
- 00:15:59so if i may summarize this um
- 00:16:02the the um definition of slavs
- 00:16:05will always depend upon the context in
- 00:16:07other words
- 00:16:08i don't i cannot give you an
- 00:16:10encyclopedia slash dictionary
- 00:16:12definition slavs means that one two
- 00:16:15three four right meanings
- 00:16:16uh there's a multiplicity of meanings
- 00:16:18precisely because the
- 00:16:20word was used in a rather vague way
- 00:16:23initially and then different authors
- 00:16:25different moments in time
- 00:16:26applied it to their specific purposes so
- 00:16:29you you collect
- 00:16:31all that information and try to put them
- 00:16:32on top of the other
- 00:16:34there's not much overlap one comes i
- 00:16:36mean the the tendency ever since the
- 00:16:3819th century would say well they all
- 00:16:40were aware that those people were
- 00:16:41different because they spoke a different
- 00:16:43language they recalled slug
- 00:16:45the reality is that until the 9th
- 00:16:48century we have
- 00:16:49absolutely no idea what was the language
- 00:16:50that those because people spoke
- 00:16:52and by the way ultra slavonic is not a
- 00:16:54language in which
- 00:16:56somebody would go to the market to buy
- 00:16:58bread you know ask for buying a bread or
- 00:17:00something
- 00:17:00it's an artificial language created i
- 00:17:03mean really
- 00:17:04invented by one man we know the name of
- 00:17:06that man constantine otherwise known as
- 00:17:08saints
- 00:17:08serum right um who
- 00:17:11use the most likely that's a theory too
- 00:17:14use the dialect spoken
- 00:17:15uh in the hinterland of the city of
- 00:17:18thessaloniki in northern greece right
- 00:17:19to create this artificial language into
- 00:17:22which he translated the liturgical books
- 00:17:24uh in order to spread the word of god to
- 00:17:27people in moravia
- 00:17:29which is the eastern part of present-day
- 00:17:31czech republic the same language
- 00:17:33was then used to uh
- 00:17:36convert the chris to christianity to the
- 00:17:38society in bruce
- 00:17:39now that itself implies that people in
- 00:17:43both moravia and ruse understood that
- 00:17:45language does it mean that their
- 00:17:47languages
- 00:17:48their respective language they were
- 00:17:50speaking when they were going to the
- 00:17:51market to buy their bread were similar
- 00:17:53i would not go there there is no basis
- 00:17:56for that in other words we don't have
- 00:17:57any other evidence
- 00:17:58written of what those languages were so
- 00:18:02all inferences based on language
- 00:18:05are based on material that survives much
- 00:18:07much much later times
- 00:18:09so jumping over centuries it's always a
- 00:18:11pretty risky business no historian is
- 00:18:13happy doing that alex had also asked
- 00:18:16when it comes to the slavs who were they
- 00:18:20before they were slavs there were no
- 00:18:22[ __ ] before the slavs
- 00:18:23in other words it's almost like saying
- 00:18:26um
- 00:18:27where were the americans before they
- 00:18:29became american
- 00:18:30all right let me to give you an example
- 00:18:32and obviously people would say well i
- 00:18:33mean most of the
- 00:18:34settlers came from england but
- 00:18:38with those who embarked in england
- 00:18:39already american
- 00:18:41i i got that right and
- 00:18:44is is there an equivalent yeah let me
- 00:18:47let me let me
- 00:18:48let me explain my parallel here
- 00:18:52that there was somebody before
- 00:18:55the slavs are first mentioned in the
- 00:18:57religious sources in the same area
- 00:18:59living there's no doubt right there's no
- 00:19:02point to and it would be absurd to deny
- 00:19:03that
- 00:19:05but we don't know how those people call
- 00:19:07themselves
- 00:19:09attempts have been made and i will show
- 00:19:10you probably some images earlier on
- 00:19:13of um attempts are made to actually uh
- 00:19:16link the um vanity mentioned by tacitus
- 00:19:20so you know roman historian or even
- 00:19:24uh some of the people mentioned by
- 00:19:26herodotus
- 00:19:27right so fifth century bc right
- 00:19:31to to the slavs to me
- 00:19:34i mean as a good as a good historian you
- 00:19:36have to be to exercise your critical
- 00:19:38skills and examine any
- 00:19:39hypothesis on the basis of the evidence
- 00:19:41that is there both tacitus
- 00:19:43and herodotus in my opinion had no
- 00:19:48clue or no no inclination no
- 00:19:51desire to actually satisfy the
- 00:19:54um aspirations nationalist aspirations
- 00:19:57of people in the 19th century
- 00:19:59when those claims were made so the only
- 00:20:02reason for
- 00:20:02pushing the antiquity of the slavs
- 00:20:04before the 6th century their first
- 00:20:06mention in the regional sources
- 00:20:08is simply because there sounds like a
- 00:20:10competition who's the oldest
- 00:20:11in europe and that very early on
- 00:20:14was linked to claim to territory and
- 00:20:17influence in other words to political
- 00:20:19power but a historian is not supposed to
- 00:20:21do that
- 00:20:22and as a in fact i would go as far as to
- 00:20:25say like if
- 00:20:26if a historian's job is any
- 00:20:29that could be describing a few words is
- 00:20:31to actually destroy
- 00:20:32illusions the illusion
- 00:20:35of pushing those loves back into history
- 00:20:38is just like
- 00:20:39you know as i mentioned i mean there is
- 00:20:41no point of linking americans to the
- 00:20:44english men or women who left england
- 00:20:48evidently there is a link between the
- 00:20:50two evidently there were people in as i
- 00:20:52mentioned
- 00:20:52that there's no denying but there's no
- 00:20:54point
- 00:20:55in believing that the identity that we
- 00:20:58call slavic
- 00:20:58came frozen in times fully fledged from
- 00:21:01let's say bronze age all the way to the
- 00:21:03modern age there's no such thing that
- 00:21:04would be my history
- 00:21:06change what do we know about where
- 00:21:09they actually came from originally as
- 00:21:12you can tell
- 00:21:13the maps that one can find on wikipedia
- 00:21:17or other um avenues
- 00:21:20you know to would get quick information
- 00:21:23seem to rely on a theory according to
- 00:21:26which
- 00:21:27the uh homeland of the slavs the area
- 00:21:29from which they came from as you
- 00:21:31mentioned earlier on
- 00:21:32would be along or on both sides of a
- 00:21:35river shown here on my map here this is
- 00:21:38the one just underneath the word slabs
- 00:21:39on this map is the river pipette
- 00:21:42which is right at the border between uh
- 00:21:44present-day ukraine and belarus the
- 00:21:46northern border of bella of a
- 00:21:48ukraine um it's just a you know as an
- 00:21:52aside
- 00:21:52this is the area where chernobyl is
- 00:21:55that's where the accident uh
- 00:21:56to place which another side
- 00:22:00means that not too many excavations will
- 00:22:02take place in that area for like
- 00:22:042 000 years from now
- 00:22:07if you think of the radioactivity in the
- 00:22:09india anyway
- 00:22:11how did we come up with this in other
- 00:22:12words uh let me explain
- 00:22:15why this area of all the regions in
- 00:22:17europe
- 00:22:18or in fact eurasia was cho why why was
- 00:22:21this area chosen as the
- 00:22:23as the the source of the slavs um
- 00:22:26if you if you are examining uh closely
- 00:22:29what's going on
- 00:22:29it's not archaeological evidence nor
- 00:22:33indeed uh written sources because this
- 00:22:35area was this is the danube right this
- 00:22:37is where the
- 00:22:37byzantine empire was just way too far to
- 00:22:40the north
- 00:22:41was outside the radar of i doubt that
- 00:22:43anybody in constantinople knew about
- 00:22:45what the pipet river is where it is and
- 00:22:48who lived there
- 00:22:50and they most likely didn't care either
- 00:22:53so what is what is the evidence the
- 00:22:55evidence is
- 00:22:56linguistic it's a it's a long story to
- 00:22:59be told
- 00:23:00but for the purpose of of the answer to
- 00:23:02this question
- 00:23:03it is uh on the basis of the examination
- 00:23:07of
- 00:23:08modern slavic languages that this
- 00:23:11epicenter if i may use that word of
- 00:23:14the slavic language the spread of the
- 00:23:17slavic languages was chosen
- 00:23:18now the problem with linguistic evidence
- 00:23:20is that it cannot be
- 00:23:22dated with any degree of accuracy in the
- 00:23:25absence of written sources
- 00:23:27in that freeze so to so to speak those
- 00:23:30linguistic phenomena like
- 00:23:31phonetic changes uh new lexiems
- 00:23:34and so on and so forth so there is no
- 00:23:36way to tell actually
- 00:23:38when this happened uh if it needs this
- 00:23:40was the the
- 00:23:41the first um the first home end of the
- 00:23:43slavs
- 00:23:44uh on the basis of language alone one
- 00:23:46cannot tell this is where archaeologists
- 00:23:48jumped in all right
- 00:23:50so because they were the their thinking
- 00:23:53was influenced
- 00:23:54already by the theories in linguistic
- 00:23:56and historical linguistics they started
- 00:23:58from the premise that it must be here
- 00:24:00that the first
- 00:24:01uh uh culture of the slavs
- 00:24:05and in the sense of archaeological
- 00:24:06culture of the slavs must be found
- 00:24:08and as you can tell the arrows will show
- 00:24:10how they spread later on into different
- 00:24:12areas
- 00:24:13leaving aside the fact that this
- 00:24:15actually looks more like a
- 00:24:17staff uh map of the a map of the general
- 00:24:20staff of an army or you know something
- 00:24:21like that than
- 00:24:23an archaeological thing by the way um a
- 00:24:25soviet historian
- 00:24:26nikolai de javin uh did say that that
- 00:24:29in fact uh those uh those arrows would
- 00:24:32describe
- 00:24:33both the expansion of the red army
- 00:24:36during and after
- 00:24:37world war ii and that of the slavs right
- 00:24:39but going back to what i was saying
- 00:24:41a very serious examination of the um
- 00:24:45evidence that we have will show that in
- 00:24:47fact
- 00:24:48the earliest assemblages the earliest
- 00:24:52signs of material culture right in an
- 00:24:55area
- 00:24:56that we know from the written sources
- 00:24:58was inhabited by the slavs
- 00:25:00is here at the danube at the end of the
- 00:25:02arrow not at the beginning of the era
- 00:25:05moreover the archaeological assemblages
- 00:25:08in this area
- 00:25:09are earlier by at least 100 years than
- 00:25:14anything
- 00:25:14here in the presumed homeland
- 00:25:18that's contrary to the idea of a
- 00:25:20migration obviously
- 00:25:22right and there are no signs of a big
- 00:25:24population
- 00:25:25leaving this area leaving it empty as it
- 00:25:28were and moving into all those areas on
- 00:25:30the contrary
- 00:25:31as we move from the 5th to the 6th to
- 00:25:33the 7th century this area here
- 00:25:35actually increases in population which
- 00:25:37again is against the model
- 00:25:38of a migration from the outside so
- 00:25:41direct answer to your question where
- 00:25:43were the earliest laws
- 00:25:45if one is serious about doing this
- 00:25:48proper way the nearest slavs are those
- 00:25:49of the damage here
- 00:25:50right lower danube right here at the end
- 00:25:53of the arrow because this is the area
- 00:25:55where in fact the the early byzantine
- 00:25:58sources
- 00:25:58learned about those people did they live
- 00:26:00there from the from the very beginning
- 00:26:02that's one hypothesis did they come from
- 00:26:06the outside that's another hypothesis
- 00:26:07you know there was the one that is shown
- 00:26:09here on the on those maps
- 00:26:11not only there is no evidence
- 00:26:13historically slash archaeologically
- 00:26:15speaking for the homeland of the
- 00:26:16of the slavs being here at the border
- 00:26:19between present-day ukraine and
- 00:26:21berlus but there is no evidence of
- 00:26:23migration
- 00:26:24either now we can make maybe we're going
- 00:26:27to have the oppo the opportunity to see
- 00:26:29there is evidence of raids of the slavs
- 00:26:31across the
- 00:26:32danube into the balkans but at every
- 00:26:35single
- 00:26:35event like that mentioned in the sources
- 00:26:37the authors
- 00:26:39uh giving us the stories tell us that
- 00:26:40the slavins went back home
- 00:26:42meaning in the lands north of the of the
- 00:26:44lord they did not settle there
- 00:26:46in order for the earliest evidence of
- 00:26:48settlement in the balkans to arrive you
- 00:26:50have to wait
- 00:26:51for the first half of the seventh
- 00:26:52century so 200 years after
- 00:26:55the presumed migration boy they moved
- 00:26:57slow if they moved at all
- 00:26:59so what's the alternative in my second
- 00:27:02book and i mentioned in the introduction
- 00:27:04there
- 00:27:04i argued that for languages to spread
- 00:27:07because
- 00:27:08remember the initial argument that
- 00:27:11resulted in the location of the
- 00:27:13homeland here uh was linguistic in its
- 00:27:16nature right
- 00:27:17so returning to that type category of
- 00:27:19sources
- 00:27:21the only way to explain the spread
- 00:27:24of the slavic languages is not migration
- 00:27:28let me explain at no point in history
- 00:27:31and no point on planet earth
- 00:27:33a group of people moving over large
- 00:27:35distances like this
- 00:27:37will preserve intact the language
- 00:27:42in their homeland over 300 years
- 00:27:46remember what i said that the ultra
- 00:27:48slavonic
- 00:27:49created artificially by saint syria on
- 00:27:52the basis of
- 00:27:53a dialect in the uh hinterland of
- 00:27:55thessaloniki here
- 00:27:56was used to convert the moravians
- 00:28:00first in the 9th century and then in the
- 00:28:0210th century to convert
- 00:28:04the ruse here right supposedly that
- 00:28:07is an indication that the dialects in
- 00:28:10all this area
- 00:28:11were the same it's impossible if
- 00:28:14one starts from the assumption of
- 00:28:16migration and it's quite
- 00:28:18clear why because in in the process of
- 00:28:21migration
- 00:28:22the migrants get in touch with other
- 00:28:24people speaking other languages
- 00:28:26and they're not blocking themselves
- 00:28:28they're not isolating themselves they
- 00:28:29borrow
- 00:28:30expressions sounds words and so on
- 00:28:33i dare you to claim that the english
- 00:28:36spoken in oklahoma is the same one that
- 00:28:39is spoken in yorkshire
- 00:28:40england or in australia right
- 00:28:44and you you see what i'm saying right so
- 00:28:46there is no way
- 00:28:47so what other mechanisms are for
- 00:28:50the linguistic spread that explains the
- 00:28:52modern dis distribution of
- 00:28:54uh slavic languages which led to the
- 00:28:57uh this theory of where it starts uh
- 00:29:02one of one of the phenomena that has
- 00:29:03been studied by linguists
- 00:29:05recently is what is known as koine
- 00:29:08the term is greek and it refers to a uh
- 00:29:12a a phenomenon where languages that are
- 00:29:16not necessarily different from each
- 00:29:19other but they are from the same family
- 00:29:21merge to create a line of communication
- 00:29:25that actually
- 00:29:26enables people from different languages
- 00:29:28to communicate among each other
- 00:29:30linguists clearly say that slavic is
- 00:29:32very close to the baltic languages
- 00:29:34like lithuania and latvia nowadays right
- 00:29:37there's also a very strong iranian
- 00:29:39influence
- 00:29:40and finally there's a strong um dacian
- 00:29:44you know slash thracian origin so
- 00:29:47summary the intersection of all those
- 00:29:49languages
- 00:29:50probably a little further south from the
- 00:29:52prepared region here
- 00:29:54here's where the slavic language may
- 00:29:57have come into being
- 00:29:59but that's not slavic people you see it
- 00:30:02it's quite possible that
- 00:30:03the language spreads without people
- 00:30:06moving
- 00:30:06my patron alex lindgren had also asked
- 00:30:10how did slavic culture and even language
- 00:30:14come to spread across eastern europe the
- 00:30:17slavic
- 00:30:18what archaeologists call slavic cultures
- 00:30:20did not actually spread much
- 00:30:22there has been a tendency to see a
- 00:30:25slavic culture defined by
- 00:30:26specific elements found in
- 00:30:30archaeological assemblages
- 00:30:31some have gone for a typical house
- 00:30:33usually sunken into the floor by about
- 00:30:3650 cent
- 00:30:37centimeters for purposes of insulation
- 00:30:40it's warmer it's easier to warm out in
- 00:30:42the winter and it's obviously cooler in
- 00:30:43the summer right
- 00:30:45so those people lived underground so to
- 00:30:46speak but for the purpose of living well
- 00:30:49um and you know a lot of people jumped
- 00:30:51and said well see how
- 00:30:52you can find this type of car of houses
- 00:30:54only in eastern europe in the areas
- 00:30:56that uh are known to have been inhabited
- 00:30:59by the slavs actually that's not true
- 00:31:01um anglo-saxon archaeologists discovered
- 00:31:04uh
- 00:31:04uh in england a number of uh they're
- 00:31:07called sunken feature
- 00:31:08buildings that's the technical for it um
- 00:31:11at mocking
- 00:31:12for example a well-known and published
- 00:31:14settlement
- 00:31:15i i doubt that there were any slabs
- 00:31:16living in the area there
- 00:31:19so it's it's a feature that is not
- 00:31:21ethnically specific that's what i mean
- 00:31:23others jump to saying well uh ugly
- 00:31:26handmade
- 00:31:27pottery with no decoration whatsoever
- 00:31:29the so-called prague type
- 00:31:30so-called because the first the first uh
- 00:31:33discoveries were made in the
- 00:31:35in the in in outskirts of the city of
- 00:31:37prague in the
- 00:31:38in at that time czechoslovakia and were
- 00:31:41published by
- 00:31:42a czech archaeologist of ukrainian
- 00:31:44origin it won
- 00:31:45borkowski during the war kis is the
- 00:31:48first book to have made that claim that
- 00:31:50the specific type of pottery is
- 00:31:52ethnically
- 00:31:53uh attributable to the slops
- 00:31:57the problem of course is that handmade
- 00:31:58pottery is not
- 00:32:00made with the purpose of mine to send a
- 00:32:02signal hey i'm slav
- 00:32:04it's made with the purpose of actually
- 00:32:06doing some practical stuff
- 00:32:08holding the milk cooking the soup
- 00:32:10whatever
- 00:32:11right and needless to say the
- 00:32:13proportions and size of
- 00:32:14all those uh pots were were found in
- 00:32:17other cultures as well
- 00:32:18uh now um the the uh
- 00:32:22the culture then itself is not specific
- 00:32:26to only one side
- 00:32:27in other words clearly there are
- 00:32:29similarities between sites that the
- 00:32:30distance from each other within an
- 00:32:32area let's say of the size of uh
- 00:32:35probably half of the state of florida
- 00:32:36that's that
- 00:32:37those are modes of thinking that
- 00:32:39archaeologists in america
- 00:32:40use using the same way right
- 00:32:43[Music]
- 00:32:44what what is what is the area of the
- 00:32:46timokuan culture
- 00:32:48in north central florida right so you
- 00:32:50can delineate it by
- 00:32:51mapping on putting on a map all the
- 00:32:53fines known so far and you
- 00:32:55sort of draw the line between let me see
- 00:32:56this is the area of the team of the
- 00:32:58timoths
- 00:32:59it's hard to believe that people that
- 00:33:01actually share the same material culture
- 00:33:03actually are of the same ethnic identity
- 00:33:05for the reasons i mentioned earlier on
- 00:33:07right so once again my material culture
- 00:33:10could spread
- 00:33:11to people who are not necessarily of the
- 00:33:12same ethnic but not even speaking the
- 00:33:14same language
- 00:33:15right nike shoes are in many places
- 00:33:19on this planet right they're not
- 00:33:21inhabited by people who speak english
- 00:33:23much less being american
- 00:33:25right so uh the the the connection
- 00:33:28between the two is different now with
- 00:33:30language however this language
- 00:33:32linguistic spread the issues are a lot
- 00:33:34more complicated right
- 00:33:36one of the phenomena that the linguists
- 00:33:38have pointed to
- 00:33:39is the so-called lingua franca that's a
- 00:33:42phenomenon
- 00:33:43specific to the middle ages when a
- 00:33:45number of uh
- 00:33:46italian merchants in the city states
- 00:33:49like general venice and so on
- 00:33:50that got in touch around the
- 00:33:52mediterranean sea with
- 00:33:54groups of people with whom they were
- 00:33:55trading speaking other languages created
- 00:33:58a language like snehiro so to speak
- 00:34:00which was not italian was not arabic was
- 00:34:02not this was not that
- 00:34:03it had a basis as a basis of sort of
- 00:34:05like a foundation of a romance language
- 00:34:08italian or something like that but it
- 00:34:10had so many added features that in fact
- 00:34:12it was a completely
- 00:34:13novel language and it helped community
- 00:34:16communication for the purpose of trade
- 00:34:18right um i don't think that's the case
- 00:34:21with slavic what i explained to you
- 00:34:23earlier on is rather koine
- 00:34:25you see it's not something that was
- 00:34:26imposed from the outside for the purpose
- 00:34:28of trade
- 00:34:29clearly slavi did not come into the area
- 00:34:32where trade would have been
- 00:34:34big on the country was rather remote
- 00:34:37nor was it imposed by an empire or an
- 00:34:40economic or
- 00:34:41an economic power that wanted to
- 00:34:45rule or govern the area one could make
- 00:34:47the case however that the koine once
- 00:34:50formed let's
- 00:34:50let's play we don't know for sure those
- 00:34:52are those those are my
- 00:34:54ideas my not my hypothesis they were
- 00:34:56proposed by others but
- 00:34:57i adopted them but just as good as yours
- 00:35:00or anybody else's
- 00:35:01let's say coin was already formed the
- 00:35:03slavic coin was reformed by 500
- 00:35:05right within a a century after that
- 00:35:08the area that we're talking about here
- 00:35:10is dominated by a great political power
- 00:35:12that of the others we're not speaker of
- 00:35:15slavic
- 00:35:16right however move another 200 years
- 00:35:19later 800 around 800 there is evidence
- 00:35:22that the others
- 00:35:23speak slavic does it mean that they have
- 00:35:26adopted
- 00:35:28the koine in the same way or probably
- 00:35:31the koinet had now become
- 00:35:33within the avocado a lingua franca like
- 00:35:35described earlier on
- 00:35:37there are arguments in favor of both
- 00:35:39ideas but
- 00:35:41you can see how we moved away from the
- 00:35:43model of
- 00:35:44linguistics spread by means of people
- 00:35:46moving
- 00:35:47we're talking here about political
- 00:35:50economic
- 00:35:50and social ways by which a language
- 00:35:54spreads and as we leave off finding out
- 00:35:56that very interesting
- 00:35:58information on the avar speaking slavic
- 00:36:01that leads me to ask my next question
- 00:36:04alex had also
- 00:36:05asked when it comes to the slavic
- 00:36:06peoples and slavic culture
- 00:36:08was it influenced by anyone around them
- 00:36:14there is no culture or any people that
- 00:36:16lives in isolation
- 00:36:18and definitely this is the case with the
- 00:36:19slavs as well
- 00:36:21the earliest influences that we know of
- 00:36:24even before we can begin to play
- 00:36:27with even before we have the first
- 00:36:29written sources so begin to actually
- 00:36:31try to figure out okay they place the
- 00:36:33slots here
- 00:36:35what material culture has been found in
- 00:36:36the area can we attribute it to the
- 00:36:38solids
- 00:36:41before even doing that there are clear
- 00:36:43evidence in the language
- 00:36:45right or in the languages should i say
- 00:36:47of multiple inferences
- 00:36:48i mentioned already a very strong i
- 00:36:51don't know if it's
- 00:36:52called an influences did some some
- 00:36:54history some linguists who believe that
- 00:36:56it was actually a single language
- 00:36:57balto slavic that's split into two
- 00:37:00baltic on one hand and slavic on the
- 00:37:02other
- 00:37:03there's very very strong connection
- 00:37:05there very strong connection
- 00:37:06um there is some there is some germanic
- 00:37:10influence right uh even the name of the
- 00:37:12danube
- 00:37:13in slavic is of germanic origin i mean
- 00:37:15the slavs learn
- 00:37:17about the name of the river from the
- 00:37:19from speakers of a germanic language
- 00:37:22there are very strong influences iranian
- 00:37:26right from iranian languages you know
- 00:37:28exactly who
- 00:37:29i mean say iran i don't mean persians
- 00:37:32necessary
- 00:37:33could be a population in the plants such
- 00:37:35as the sarnations
- 00:37:36for example we know spoken language
- 00:37:40um there is there is some influence from
- 00:37:42turkic languages
- 00:37:43probably from the others or hanzo i mean
- 00:37:46it
- 00:37:46it's very difficult to pinpoint where
- 00:37:48those influences came from in specific
- 00:37:50people that's what i mean
- 00:37:51and also to date them at what point in
- 00:37:53time they came in
- 00:37:54but um it's very interesting uh
- 00:37:57there's a there's a very uh new i should
- 00:38:00say
- 00:38:00trend in linguistics right now it's
- 00:38:02called contact linguistic what happens
- 00:38:04when two languages come in contact with
- 00:38:06each other
- 00:38:06and the tendency has been to actually
- 00:38:09look at what words were borrowed in what
- 00:38:11language
- 00:38:11right so just draw lists of words but
- 00:38:14the contact situation is could be a lot
- 00:38:17more
- 00:38:18interesting from a social point of view
- 00:38:19hence the new discipline in linguistic
- 00:38:21social linguistic think for example of
- 00:38:24spanglish
- 00:38:25in america right which is usually
- 00:38:28perceived from the outside by speakers
- 00:38:30of english only as a sort of like a
- 00:38:32weird phenomenon some would go as far as
- 00:38:35to say that the
- 00:38:35speakers of spanglish do not know proper
- 00:38:38english
- 00:38:40nothing could be further from truth in
- 00:38:42fact
- 00:38:43those are speakers of two languages
- 00:38:45which map
- 00:38:46structures from one language onto the
- 00:38:48other to create
- 00:38:50often an almost secret language to
- 00:38:52communicate only within the group
- 00:38:55so that outsiders will not understand
- 00:38:56what they're saying you recognize some
- 00:38:58words in english
- 00:38:59but the rest of them is gibberish you
- 00:39:01don't have a clue
- 00:39:03right so uh in many respects i think
- 00:39:06that's exactly what happened with slavic
- 00:39:08borrowing words from one language to
- 00:39:10adapt them to slavic
- 00:39:13with maybe not different different
- 00:39:14meanings but for different circum
- 00:39:16circumstances it has been
- 00:39:18shown for example that uh the contact
- 00:39:21with germanic
- 00:39:22uh seems to indicate uh very heavy
- 00:39:25lexical borrowings so of all the areas
- 00:39:28of the language
- 00:39:29the slavs took from the germanic the
- 00:39:32speakers from germanic words
- 00:39:34there is evidence of contact i forgot to
- 00:39:36mention these disabilities of contact
- 00:39:37between slavic and romans languages
- 00:39:40more exactly the romance language is
- 00:39:42spoken in the area of the lower danube
- 00:39:44the ancestors were presently
- 00:39:45romanian okay the influence there
- 00:39:48is grammatical morphological not so many
- 00:39:52words
- 00:39:52structures right you know the way
- 00:39:56you you construct the phrase the cases
- 00:39:58of the nouns and and you know things
- 00:40:00like that
- 00:40:01that would imply a very close
- 00:40:05connection and you know contexts and on
- 00:40:07an equal basis but very
- 00:40:08close quarters think of getting your
- 00:40:11wife from one group and marrying to the
- 00:40:13other that kind of stuff
- 00:40:14whereas the lexical borrowings from
- 00:40:16germanic imply
- 00:40:18a contact that was uh socially inferior
- 00:40:22superior
- 00:40:23right exactly how that
- 00:40:26played out in history i don't know your
- 00:40:29imagination is just as good as mine but
- 00:40:31linguists say that when only lexines are
- 00:40:34borrowed that's
- 00:40:35uh that's an indication of the language
- 00:40:37from which they are borrowed
- 00:40:38is the language of the people who are
- 00:40:40the masters
- 00:40:42so they're socially and politically
- 00:40:44superior
- 00:40:46right um so that the the you know the
- 00:40:48only the languages will tell you that
- 00:40:50there are a number of issues there now
- 00:40:52in material culture plenty of evidence
- 00:40:55right
- 00:40:56um very interesting although the sources
- 00:41:00tell us that the slavs
- 00:41:01usually fought on foot right
- 00:41:05in the area where the slavs are placed
- 00:41:07by the written sources there are
- 00:41:08quite a bit of indications that they
- 00:41:11raised horses
- 00:41:12and they probably fought on horseback um
- 00:41:16where could that influence come from
- 00:41:18step people
- 00:41:19most likely others um there is
- 00:41:22in fact a clear source uh 7th century
- 00:41:26uh chronicle attributed because we don't
- 00:41:28know the real name of the author
- 00:41:30in the 19th i think in the 19th century
- 00:41:31the author was called fredegar but
- 00:41:33that's not his real name right
- 00:41:35the chronicle of frederick is put in
- 00:41:36this way written from a frankish
- 00:41:38perspective in latin
- 00:41:40that tells a story about how the others
- 00:41:43uh you know spend the winter in slavic
- 00:41:47villages
- 00:41:48sleeping with the wives and the
- 00:41:49daughters of the
- 00:41:51slavs right in other words clearly in a
- 00:41:55situation of abuse
- 00:41:56you know the others are the masters the
- 00:41:58slavs are the inferior socially inferior
- 00:42:00there
- 00:42:01you know they they cannot actually
- 00:42:03defend themselves for their
- 00:42:04sexual abuse right and actually the
- 00:42:06source says that the slavs are
- 00:42:08uh subjected to other uh dues they pay
- 00:42:11tribute to the hours
- 00:42:13right and they are called before which
- 00:42:15actually means that in a situation of
- 00:42:17battle
- 00:42:18the others would push them in the front
- 00:42:19line to be the sort of like a cannon
- 00:42:21fodder
- 00:42:22here we have a clear situation like the
- 00:42:24one i i i told you now
- 00:42:25the question is it's there's no evidence
- 00:42:28in the text i mentioned to you
- 00:42:30but one would wonder what was the
- 00:42:31language in which the others spoke
- 00:42:33with those slavic women with which with
- 00:42:36whom they slept
- 00:42:37you said i'm saying i doubt that the
- 00:42:39slavic women learned
- 00:42:40of our language and it's a possibility
- 00:42:43therefore that the influences
- 00:42:44were both ways not just one in other
- 00:42:46words there is evidence
- 00:42:48of slavic influence upon germanic
- 00:42:50languages and definitely there is
- 00:42:51influence
- 00:42:52of slavic uh languages upon romans
- 00:42:54languages romanian is full of
- 00:42:56slavic words and in a situation in which
- 00:43:00uh as i mentioned to you borrowings
- 00:43:03from one language to the other are
- 00:43:04adapted to the needs romanians for
- 00:43:06example
- 00:43:06did very funny things with slavic laws
- 00:43:09for example
- 00:43:10uh the word for science in russian
- 00:43:13there is a similar word in romanian no
- 00:43:18that actually means dummy i guess that's
- 00:43:20how you get when you study too much
- 00:43:21science
- 00:43:23that's interesting man that would suck
- 00:43:25dude like you get your uh your hand your
- 00:43:27family is basically
- 00:43:29abused you can't do anything about it
- 00:43:31and then on top of that
- 00:43:32they make you the cannon fodder of their
- 00:43:34army fredegar tells us that they
- 00:43:36they they rose in rebellion and they
- 00:43:39defeated the others and created the
- 00:43:40state that's called the state of samoa
- 00:43:42the first
- 00:43:43known state in history slavic non-state
- 00:43:45in history
- 00:43:46the strait i told you was the
- 00:43:48explanation of why they rose in
- 00:43:49rebellion and more successful and so so
- 00:43:51when it comes to all people
- 00:43:53civilizations cultures
- 00:43:55everyone loves an origin story that
- 00:43:58explains
- 00:43:59a lot of times often mythically where
- 00:44:02they
- 00:44:02came from and so alex and many others
- 00:44:06had actually asked when i was polling
- 00:44:07for questions
- 00:44:09did they have their own origin stories
- 00:44:11and if so
- 00:44:12can you tell us a little bit about what
- 00:44:14they were the only
- 00:44:16the the earliest text in orchestra
- 00:44:19that we have had no such story let's put
- 00:44:21it this way so uh
- 00:44:23the stuff created in the 9th century
- 00:44:26second half for
- 00:44:26last third of the 9th century and the
- 00:44:2810th century in bulgaria
- 00:44:30using that language although slavonic
- 00:44:32invented by
- 00:44:33constantino no such story as i mentioned
- 00:44:36to you
- 00:44:37the word is mentioned there only as
- 00:44:40a group of people speaking able to speak
- 00:44:43this language also slowly
- 00:44:45uh to express their devotion to god okay
- 00:44:49that was just said is an explanation for
- 00:44:51why there is no
- 00:44:52origin story early on because the
- 00:44:54emphasis was on the language therefore
- 00:44:56it didn't matter where you come from to
- 00:44:58the extent that you speak the language
- 00:45:00and you could be an avar for example
- 00:45:02that you speak slavic
- 00:45:04and you receive christianity via that
- 00:45:06that makes you slap
- 00:45:07all right so what the origin of the
- 00:45:10group
- 00:45:11such as speakers of the language is is
- 00:45:14obviously
- 00:45:15irrelevant here if you look for that
- 00:45:18specific
- 00:45:19uh origin story then the first one that
- 00:45:21we have is in the russian primary
- 00:45:23chronicle right now what that is is
- 00:45:26i mean it would be a gross mistake to
- 00:45:28call it a genuine
- 00:45:30sugarcoaxy kind of stuff that the slavs
- 00:45:32invented
- 00:45:33because you just read it and you realize
- 00:45:35that in fact what the author or authors
- 00:45:38did was to link the slabs to biblical
- 00:45:40history
- 00:45:41they are the descendants of jaffet and
- 00:45:43they are placed in human history coming
- 00:45:45down like all the other peoples from the
- 00:45:47tower of babel and
- 00:45:48spread of languages and so forth right
- 00:45:51and the purpose of the author of uh or
- 00:45:54the authors of uh
- 00:45:56those the first part of the russian
- 00:45:58primary chronicle was not so much to
- 00:45:59focus on the slavs but to explain
- 00:46:02why you know coming from this biblical
- 00:46:05history
- 00:46:06they were unable to govern themselves
- 00:46:08because the purpose of the author was to
- 00:46:10say
- 00:46:10look they they got so bad they could not
- 00:46:14work together there with their neighbors
- 00:46:16right with the truths and the others
- 00:46:18that they had to invite the varangians
- 00:46:20in
- 00:46:22vikings and the the purpose of the
- 00:46:26author is to actually explain
- 00:46:27why the vikings became the rulers of
- 00:46:28those people and eventually
- 00:46:31changed their language and changed their
- 00:46:32ways to become slavic
- 00:46:34that in itself is an origin story but
- 00:46:36not for the slavs for the rus
- 00:46:38if you look for other slavic people for
- 00:46:40example
- 00:46:41uh in poland right uh there is no origin
- 00:46:44story
- 00:46:45for that there is no there is an origin
- 00:46:47story for the dynasty ps dynasty they
- 00:46:49ruled in the middle ages right
- 00:46:51uh according to an anonym again we don't
- 00:46:53know who the author was
- 00:46:55conventionally known as galossan on he
- 00:46:56was wrote in the early 12th century but
- 00:46:58the same time a little later than the
- 00:47:00uh last version last reduction of the
- 00:47:02russian primary chronicle
- 00:47:04uh piast was a peasant who received some
- 00:47:08guests
- 00:47:08that could not get hospitality at the
- 00:47:10local duke's house so they came into
- 00:47:12into the peasant house which is sure i
- 00:47:14don't have much but sit on the table
- 00:47:16so there's a desire to actually explain
- 00:47:18the origin of the dynasty not of the
- 00:47:19people
- 00:47:21uh bohemia cosmos of prague again 12th
- 00:47:24century
- 00:47:25he again explains the origin of the
- 00:47:27dynasty the jimmy slits
- 00:47:28je muslim was a plowman once again uh
- 00:47:31modest origin like in poland not no
- 00:47:35no origin stories in bulgaria no origin
- 00:47:37stories in serbia and i could go on and
- 00:47:39on
- 00:47:40as many of my subscribers know one of my
- 00:47:42channel favorite topics usually involves
- 00:47:45dna and how it helps explain a little
- 00:47:48bit about the past
- 00:47:49usually we focus on the ancient world
- 00:47:52but this one may be a little bit later
- 00:47:54and so i was wondering in the world of
- 00:47:56dna studies
- 00:47:58has it told us anything about them
- 00:48:01there has been breakthroughs in the
- 00:48:04discussion of migrations
- 00:48:06right not so much with dna analysis as
- 00:48:10with other forms of
- 00:48:11what's called molecular anthropology
- 00:48:13such as strontium or oxygen
- 00:48:16isotope analysis on the teeth
- 00:48:19that you know very simply could tell
- 00:48:22what
- 00:48:23where you drinking water as a kid right
- 00:48:26and therefore because as a kid you grew
- 00:48:29up in that area where you came from okay
- 00:48:32with the groups of population discovered
- 00:48:35by archaeologists right
- 00:48:37that they or others call slavs there are
- 00:48:40problems
- 00:48:41one of which is that the dominant uh
- 00:48:45burial right throughout the early middle
- 00:48:47ages before christianization before
- 00:48:49conversion to christianity
- 00:48:51was cremation not in emotion
- 00:48:55dna analysis on cremated remains is not
- 00:48:57impossible but it's only now
- 00:48:59that it's very difficult because of the
- 00:49:01high temperatures or the messing up all
- 00:49:03in some sort
- 00:49:04right needless to say there are problems
- 00:49:06of contamination
- 00:49:07for in in cremation that are you know so
- 00:49:10for the
- 00:49:10procedural modes are much more
- 00:49:12complicated issues that's one
- 00:49:14two um even four
- 00:49:17cases other than the slops right where
- 00:49:20um
- 00:49:21where uh dna has been used there are two
- 00:49:25ways to do it
- 00:49:26okay um and i'm not i don't know whether
- 00:49:30you know you insisted upon this because
- 00:49:31it's a very important thing
- 00:49:33to understand what the analysis can do
- 00:49:36and how it works
- 00:49:38one can compare dna from a modern
- 00:49:40population
- 00:49:42of say bosnia right two uh dna extracted
- 00:49:45from
- 00:49:46skeletal materials from a cemetery dated
- 00:49:49supposedly to the i don't know
- 00:49:5110th century elements in the middle ages
- 00:49:52okay so compare the dna of a medieval
- 00:49:55population with the dna of a modern
- 00:49:57population
- 00:49:58look if they match wow i mean if if the
- 00:50:01cemetery happens to be somewhere else
- 00:50:02let's say in poland the match would mean
- 00:50:04that there's a migration or you know
- 00:50:06something like that
- 00:50:07if there's none you know you know any
- 00:50:09interpretation is possible
- 00:50:11that's one way to do it modern too old
- 00:50:13okay
- 00:50:14much more interesting i would say at
- 00:50:17least for me
- 00:50:19way to do it is to compare dna from two
- 00:50:22old populations
- 00:50:24cemetery a and cemetery b or even within
- 00:50:27the same cemetery
- 00:50:28between individuals buried in different
- 00:50:30parts of the cemetery
- 00:50:31okay the latter away
- 00:50:36is is very useful because it creates a
- 00:50:38map
- 00:50:39of the population in other words
- 00:50:40unfortunately not that many samples
- 00:50:43exist for the moment now there's no way
- 00:50:45to
- 00:50:46map the old population within a single
- 00:50:49chronological segment
- 00:50:50say the middle ages much less at the the
- 00:50:53scale of a single century
- 00:50:55i wish we were there because that would
- 00:50:56be very interesting stuff
- 00:50:58because let me put it this way it will
- 00:51:01show
- 00:51:02not necessarily where people come from
- 00:51:04but
- 00:51:05what their marital strategies were
- 00:51:08there's been a phenomenal book published
- 00:51:11on a subject
- 00:51:12completely different from what we talked
- 00:51:14about here history of florida where i'm
- 00:51:16based
- 00:51:17right you probably know that the
- 00:51:20native american tribe in florida the the
- 00:51:24american
- 00:51:24neighborhood is the seminoles who did
- 00:51:26not exist as
- 00:51:27a tribe before contact with the whites
- 00:51:30okay
- 00:51:30so the native population of florida at
- 00:51:33the moment of contact with the spaniards
- 00:51:35it's
- 00:51:35wiped out not by war but by the diseases
- 00:51:38that the europeans
- 00:51:39have brought long story short there's a
- 00:51:41gap of population a demographic collapse
- 00:51:45florida especially the northern and
- 00:51:46central parts were empty of any
- 00:51:48population
- 00:51:49around the year 1600s that's when small
- 00:51:52groups of people
- 00:51:53moved from southern georgia right
- 00:51:56usually from
- 00:51:57i mean linguistically speaking linked to
- 00:51:59groups of cree right
- 00:52:00but mixed up with runaway slaves hence
- 00:52:03the black seminoles right
- 00:52:05and and all sorts of other groups right
- 00:52:07those are isolated one group here one
- 00:52:09group there and
- 00:52:10so forth now nobody marries within the
- 00:52:12same group for obvious reasons
- 00:52:14so you need a wife from elsewhere right
- 00:52:16now
- 00:52:17most people think that marrying
- 00:52:21marrying is dictated by um
- 00:52:24the language the uh customs the culture
- 00:52:27in other words
- 00:52:28you take your wife who is similar to you
- 00:52:30in culturally speaking
- 00:52:32as a matter of fact chris stojanowski
- 00:52:35wrote this book we did a phenomenal
- 00:52:37study both archaeology and
- 00:52:38molecular anthropology came to the
- 00:52:41conclusion that as a matter of fact
- 00:52:43it is marriages that created a seminal
- 00:52:47identity it is by marrying
- 00:52:50to outside groups that those groups
- 00:52:52small groups began to coalesce
- 00:52:54and formed what we know nowadays as the
- 00:52:57seminoles
- 00:52:59now that is where i wish
- 00:53:02like i could give you an answer about
- 00:53:04this laws but we are not there
- 00:53:07the reason we're not there is that
- 00:53:08because there is a there is a there's an
- 00:53:10obsession
- 00:53:11with comparing modern to
- 00:53:14old dna and that to me
- 00:53:18is a fundamental mistake
- 00:53:21it may be fashionable it it gets five
- 00:53:24minutes of attention on tv
- 00:53:26it gets ancestry.com that kind of stuff
- 00:53:29right
- 00:53:30but uh it is based on a wrong assumption
- 00:53:33there is no
- 00:53:34ethnic dna there is no slavic dna
- 00:53:37frankish dna romanian
- 00:53:39and so there is no such thing ethnicity
- 00:53:42is a cultural thing not a biological
- 00:53:43thing
- 00:53:44right moreover if you compare a modern
- 00:53:48to an old ancient medieval dna
- 00:53:51you're denying a history of a lot of
- 00:53:54mixing
- 00:53:56could have happened now clearly as i
- 00:53:58mentioned earlier on
- 00:53:59if uh the symmetry the modern population
- 00:54:02dna does not match
- 00:54:04or matches the sorry matches the dna of
- 00:54:06the popular old
- 00:54:07medieval population saying at a remote
- 00:54:10location there
- 00:54:11the immediate thing is oh migration but
- 00:54:13there is no way to tell when that
- 00:54:15migration happened
- 00:54:16remember what i said about linguistic
- 00:54:18facts they cannot be dated in the
- 00:54:19absence of written sources the same
- 00:54:20happens to haplogroups
- 00:54:22there is no date on the habits the the
- 00:54:25only dating
- 00:54:26if you read the literature you will see
- 00:54:28that most of the authors
- 00:54:29trying to put those things in a
- 00:54:31chronological order
- 00:54:32when when they come to a time to a
- 00:54:34timeline
- 00:54:36they usually use sources from the
- 00:54:37outside not from internally
- 00:54:39they say okay this must have happened
- 00:54:41when procopius was saying such and such
- 00:54:43or when the material culture
- 00:54:44archaeological culture such and such
- 00:54:46spread in the territory in other words
- 00:54:49they they bring
- 00:54:50outside evidence to mix with this to
- 00:54:52explain their own their own facts they
- 00:54:53cannot date those things by themselves
- 00:54:55and in themselves
- 00:54:57and without that you there is no trust
- 00:55:00i cannot trust information that is made
- 00:55:02up in this way if you know what i'm
- 00:55:03saying and now let's talk outside
- 00:55:05sources
- 00:55:06when it comes to people who would have
- 00:55:09seen these people or
- 00:55:10heard of them at least whether they be
- 00:55:13byzantine or frankish
- 00:55:15latin whoever what did they have to say
- 00:55:19about the slavic peoples very good
- 00:55:21question
- 00:55:22uh the earliest uh author to write about
- 00:55:26them is pro copious of caesarea
- 00:55:30uh in the mid 6th century right
- 00:55:33um there are others who claim that
- 00:55:35jordanis is the first
- 00:55:37other that uh pseudo uh
- 00:55:40uh cesarios in a dialogue but you know
- 00:55:43chronologically speaking pro corpus is
- 00:55:45the first what was he interested in
- 00:55:48warfare he wanted to understand them
- 00:55:51as fighters because they caused problems
- 00:55:54to the empire
- 00:55:56but he like many educated byzantines at
- 00:55:58that time believed
- 00:56:00that the customs the way people behave
- 00:56:02laws and so forth
- 00:56:04was determined by the climb climate
- 00:56:07we'll say nowadays
- 00:56:08under which you leave he thought that
- 00:56:10the world was divided into
- 00:56:12slices right called climbs that's the
- 00:56:14theory of climbs
- 00:56:15tell me under what climb you leave and
- 00:56:17i'm going to tell you uh
- 00:56:19i'm going to predict what kind of
- 00:56:20culture and what kind of behavior you
- 00:56:22have
- 00:56:22that's why the byzantines were scornful
- 00:56:25towards people from the
- 00:56:26north because they thought they were
- 00:56:28coming from an area that did not have
- 00:56:29much sun so therefore their brains were
- 00:56:31mushy
- 00:56:32they were very violent they were very
- 00:56:33brave but they were stupid they could
- 00:56:36not understand much that's what the
- 00:56:37business thought
- 00:56:38and that's why they also they also left
- 00:56:40the area because being stupid and not
- 00:56:42having much to do in the cold there
- 00:56:44they they they have sex and they they
- 00:56:46bred and you know lots of people
- 00:56:48overpopulation you gotta get out that's
- 00:56:50the theory
- 00:56:51that giordano's pro corpus contemporary
- 00:56:54used to explain the
- 00:56:55migration of the gods right
- 00:56:58so the slavs were the slums were in a
- 00:57:00similar package so to speak
- 00:57:02because most businesses were not
- 00:57:03interested in specificity of those
- 00:57:05people they're they're all the same you
- 00:57:07know
- 00:57:07all they're coming from the same area
- 00:57:08because they looked look at them with
- 00:57:10that sense of superiority
- 00:57:12the civilized man the educated man
- 00:57:15towards the end of the sixth century we
- 00:57:17have a better example of this in a
- 00:57:20treatise uh written again we don't know
- 00:57:22the author
- 00:57:23uh the title of the it's it's a manual
- 00:57:26it's a manual called strategy
- 00:57:28uh in which in greek it's translated
- 00:57:31loosely military manual it's a manual
- 00:57:33for
- 00:57:33uh officers high-ranking officers in the
- 00:57:36byzantine army
- 00:57:37how to fight with different groups of
- 00:57:39people
- 00:57:40and there's a substantial chapter on the
- 00:57:42slavs very interesting
- 00:57:44most likely based on observations of
- 00:57:46somebody who had
- 00:57:47been in emperor morris's armies that
- 00:57:50crossed the danube and
- 00:57:51waged war within slavic territories
- 00:57:53right there because it's full of details
- 00:57:55that
- 00:57:55it for us is fantastic for example he
- 00:57:58says
- 00:57:59those people are not hungry they have
- 00:58:00plenty of food which they store
- 00:58:02underground their wives sacrifice
- 00:58:05themselves of their husband's death
- 00:58:07satie like in india they are you know
- 00:58:10when it
- 00:58:11when they take prisoners they're not
- 00:58:13treating them badly so don't don't be
- 00:58:15afraid
- 00:58:16you know some of those prisoners even
- 00:58:17decide to stay among them
- 00:58:19that's how nice they are treated as
- 00:58:22prisoners there so
- 00:58:23all those snippets of information they
- 00:58:24give us there clearly all the examples
- 00:58:26that i gave you
- 00:58:27are from the point of view of a military
- 00:58:29man i want to know about the enemy
- 00:58:31details that will help me defeat him
- 00:58:35right so there is no
- 00:58:38those sources cannot answer questions
- 00:58:40such as what was the language disposal
- 00:58:42absolutely no interest in that
- 00:58:44were they related uh by customs or
- 00:58:47culture to other people
- 00:58:49no interest in that absolutely there is
- 00:58:51a classification that the
- 00:58:52byzantine authors made the slavs are not
- 00:58:55like the franks
- 00:58:56why because to to the to
- 00:58:59the byzantine mind the franks are
- 00:59:01fighting in a certain way
- 00:59:03and by the way the franks and the slavs
- 00:59:04are not like the others the others are
- 00:59:06different
- 00:59:06too why because they fight on horseback
- 00:59:09right so
- 00:59:10different ways to approach this from a
- 00:59:12military point of view
- 00:59:14it is only late very late that you see
- 00:59:17an interest in the slavs
- 00:59:18as a linguistic group it's only late
- 00:59:20that you see
- 00:59:21when i say late after the 10th century
- 00:59:2412 13 14th century sources begin to
- 00:59:26actually
- 00:59:27give us detail about language
- 00:59:28differences between czechs and poles
- 00:59:30russians ukrainians much much later and
- 00:59:33so on so forth
- 00:59:34but in the early times no i'm going to
- 00:59:37ask an additional follow-up question
- 00:59:38right now so we've covered you know
- 00:59:40especially how the byzantines saw them
- 00:59:42were there any similar views even if
- 00:59:44just combat that was expressed by let's
- 00:59:47say
- 00:59:47sources in western europe yeah i
- 00:59:50mentioned frederick earlier on
- 00:59:52um in the process of so remember the
- 00:59:55slavs revolted against the others right
- 00:59:58he actually
- 00:59:59calls the uh the sons born
- 01:00:02out of the sex that the others had with
- 01:00:04the slavic women
- 01:00:05he calls them wends not slavs
- 01:00:09and that seems to have been the the way
- 01:00:11in which to this day
- 01:00:12uh in germany uh in certain areas in
- 01:00:15austria
- 01:00:16in dialect that's the way to call the
- 01:00:18slavic neighbors vendish
- 01:00:20right wentz and he says that those ones
- 01:00:23were extremely good military speaking so
- 01:00:25much so that
- 01:00:26king dagobah king of the franks sent an
- 01:00:28army against samo their ruler
- 01:00:30and was beaten so again he wants to
- 01:00:34explain how was that possible unlike pro
- 01:00:37copious and
- 01:00:38starting manual there are no details
- 01:00:40about wives and things like
- 01:00:42that it's mostly about samoa right about
- 01:00:45the ruler in other words the franks tend
- 01:00:47to attribute any merits not to the
- 01:00:49population
- 01:00:49but to the head to the king to the ruler
- 01:00:52to the chieftain
- 01:00:55early sources in latin writing about the
- 01:00:57slavs are also
- 01:00:58some of the letters written by pope
- 01:01:00gregory the great around year 600
- 01:01:03and those are snippets in correspondence
- 01:01:05between him as a pope and other bishops
- 01:01:07right and he says oh by the way i heard
- 01:01:09that the slavs invaded such and such so
- 01:01:11those are not
- 01:01:12clearly no information then again from a
- 01:01:14military point of view but
- 01:01:16mostly in terms of move away they're
- 01:01:19coming that kind of stuff
- 01:01:20finally uh there is uh evidence in later
- 01:01:24centuries right
- 01:01:25of an interest in the slavs we have to
- 01:01:27wait for the ninth century for a
- 01:01:28catalogue of slavic tribes
- 01:01:31with a number of towns meaning
- 01:01:33fortresses
- 01:01:34a catalogue that was probably drafted
- 01:01:36involved in bavaria
- 01:01:38in the 9th century there's also like an
- 01:01:40area to
- 01:01:41for future expansion right so if we go
- 01:01:44into
- 01:01:45area x how many how many tribes do we
- 01:01:48do we expect to see there five and how
- 01:01:50many fortresses now there's how many
- 01:01:52fortresses we have to
- 01:01:53besiege conquer and so forth but that
- 01:01:56again is nine centuries very late
- 01:01:57in many cases many throughout history
- 01:02:00culture society civilizations
- 01:02:03are usually very spiritual religiously
- 01:02:05connected
- 01:02:06what do we know about the religions of
- 01:02:09the slavic peoples before christianity
- 01:02:12excellent question we know a bit
- 01:02:16but again those informations are
- 01:02:18problematic pro procopius mentioned that
- 01:02:20they have a
- 01:02:21god of the of the thunder right
- 01:02:24to whom they sacrifice cattle um they
- 01:02:27also worship
- 01:02:28divinities of the waters like you know
- 01:02:31spirits of the waters your lakes and
- 01:02:33rivers and things like that
- 01:02:35um the problem with that uh it's not
- 01:02:37much information but the problem with
- 01:02:39that is that it looks suspiciously like
- 01:02:41a an attempt to map onto the slavs
- 01:02:44a mode of thinking that is basically
- 01:02:46greek in other words
- 01:02:48he thinks of the slavs oh they have a
- 01:02:50god like the ancient greeks
- 01:02:52right zeus the god of the thunder
- 01:02:56he does not see the slavic religion as
- 01:02:59it is he translates it so to speak for
- 01:03:01his audience
- 01:03:02who cannot understand what the slavs are
- 01:03:05doing unless you explain them in the
- 01:03:06terms of the books that they read
- 01:03:08right which are about ancient greece
- 01:03:10very similar phenomenon
- 01:03:12later much later on in the 10th and 11th
- 01:03:14century in the northern part of europe
- 01:03:16in the area of present-day northern
- 01:03:18germany and poland where there is a an
- 01:03:20attempt by the
- 01:03:20uh saxon uh expansion
- 01:03:24german right holy german empire moving
- 01:03:26eastwards right
- 01:03:27to convert those people all of whom
- 01:03:28spoke slavic and we have some very
- 01:03:30interesting accounts
- 01:03:31tomorrow uh uh
- 01:03:35helmholtz of bozo uh
- 01:03:38a number of other other all of whom when
- 01:03:41they described for example a temple
- 01:03:44which certainly existed on the island of
- 01:03:46rugen of
- 01:03:47the german coast in the baltic sea they
- 01:03:50describe it in the terms
- 01:03:51of a greek ancient greek temple
- 01:03:55what can you do with that information i
- 01:03:56mean not much right
- 01:03:58now from an archaeological point of view
- 01:04:00we know however a few things for example
- 01:04:03there is clear evidence there's a very
- 01:04:05good book coming out of kiev of all
- 01:04:06places on magic
- 01:04:08in early slavic religion which is based
- 01:04:11exclusively on on archaeology right
- 01:04:13uh under the hearth under the
- 01:04:16uh oven of any house there's a little
- 01:04:19pot
- 01:04:21with some seeds inside always millet
- 01:04:24always minute right um
- 01:04:28there is a an animal or two under the
- 01:04:30foundation or
- 01:04:31not foundation so no foundation right
- 01:04:33underneath so the before you
- 01:04:35dig up the whole the pit for the house
- 01:04:38there's another pit underneath one of
- 01:04:39the walls where an animal is
- 01:04:41this skeleton of a little animal is
- 01:04:43deposed there so there may be a
- 01:04:45sacrificial
- 01:04:46of some kind um you know and as
- 01:04:49you know on a number of sites there are
- 01:04:51small statues made of clay
- 01:04:53some of them in the form of an animal
- 01:04:55like a cow or a horse
- 01:04:57some of them in the form of humans that
- 01:04:59were found
- 01:05:01what exactly their role is we don't know
- 01:05:05there are a number of hordes that have
- 01:05:07been found
- 01:05:08especially in the middle uh the upper
- 01:05:10area are presented in ukraine
- 01:05:11south and north of kiev on both sides of
- 01:05:13the you know
- 01:05:14uh left bank and right banking ukraine
- 01:05:17uh
- 01:05:18that contain uh small plaques made of
- 01:05:20metal
- 01:05:21in the form of dancing man right so
- 01:05:23these men you know with their hands
- 01:05:25up like this and you know with this leg
- 01:05:27spread
- 01:05:28probably dancing what is the
- 01:05:29significance of that
- 01:05:31it's difficult to tell in other words
- 01:05:34the evidence uh that we have the one
- 01:05:37not the written one which has problems
- 01:05:38but the evidence seems to point out to
- 01:05:41i guess the word that i would use here
- 01:05:43is animistic
- 01:05:44right so in other words there are
- 01:05:46spirits everywhere there's no
- 01:05:48systematized religion don't think of it
- 01:05:51as a
- 01:05:51like christianity with the central god
- 01:05:53with institutions priests and so on
- 01:05:54and so forth the earliest we hear about
- 01:05:57slavic priests in the pre-christian era
- 01:06:00is the 10th century so it's late
- 01:06:03and it's most likely as a reaction to
- 01:06:05what they were so they were seeing in
- 01:06:07christianity another
- 01:06:08imitating that right not genuinely
- 01:06:11such and as we approach the end of this
- 01:06:13episode i want to talk about legacy
- 01:06:16from the time that they appear
- 01:06:19and they create their societies they
- 01:06:22stratify
- 01:06:22so on and so forth what legacy do they
- 01:06:25create
- 01:06:26that'll stretch on from the middle ages
- 01:06:29even to today
- 01:06:30the most important one is the language
- 01:06:32and let me explain it's not just the
- 01:06:35surviving slavic languages
- 01:06:38that thing that constantine serial
- 01:06:41central did in the 860s
- 01:06:45in the in the 60s of the 9th century was
- 01:06:48an
- 01:06:48enormously influential thing
- 01:06:52uh because it created a language not
- 01:06:55only for
- 01:06:56those people to express their devotion
- 01:06:57to god liturgical books and whatnot
- 01:07:00but it created a premise for a for an
- 01:07:02original
- 01:07:03an absolute extraordinary different
- 01:07:06culture of europe
- 01:07:09so uh in the middle ages uh from a
- 01:07:12cultural point of view uh
- 01:07:14those people express themselves not just
- 01:07:16in a different language but express
- 01:07:17ideas that's very specific
- 01:07:19there is no parallel for example for
- 01:07:21harabras uh
- 01:07:22on the ladders and treaties on defending
- 01:07:25the
- 01:07:26glycolytic alphabet you don't you don't
- 01:07:28get any
- 01:07:29any anybody writing a defense of the
- 01:07:32latin alphabet in the west
- 01:07:34similarly you don't get a sermon on law
- 01:07:37and grace
- 01:07:38in which i guess you get a number of
- 01:07:41sermons on contrasting the
- 01:07:42new the old to the new testament and
- 01:07:45grace
- 01:07:46but you know in the process of doing
- 01:07:48that future metropolitan of kiev
- 01:07:50hilarion plays the ruse in history
- 01:07:54right so he used that to sort of create
- 01:07:56the path for the ruse to enter
- 01:07:58biblical history i already mentioned the
- 01:08:00authors of the russian primary chronicle
- 01:08:02doing exactly the same to place the
- 01:08:04slavs
- 01:08:04in history so all in all this actually
- 01:08:07created
- 01:08:07an extraordinary um extraordinary rich
- 01:08:11and diverse environment right
- 01:08:15um i mentioned glad golitic the alphabet
- 01:08:18that kharabra defended in the 10th
- 01:08:20century with his on the letters
- 01:08:22that alphabet survived well into the
- 01:08:2316th century in croatia of all places
- 01:08:26there is a croatian
- 01:08:27glagolitism now croatians were catholic
- 01:08:31and they had to fight for the
- 01:08:33preservation of the of the right to
- 01:08:35preserve that language
- 01:08:36to to serve in the church and to write
- 01:08:39that language with that alphabet
- 01:08:41when pope of the pope of the pope uh
- 01:08:45forbade them to do so and in the era
- 01:08:48of uh rise to nationalism in the 19th
- 01:08:51century that played an enormous role
- 01:08:53to them uh defining themselves as a star
- 01:08:57um in bulgaria for example uh the
- 01:09:00uh the this extraordinary effort of
- 01:09:03translations
- 01:09:04in the 10th century took place at the
- 01:09:05royal court of press lab on the cement
- 01:09:08and the use of bulgaria of ultra
- 01:09:10slavonic for expressing a number of
- 01:09:12fight of ideas
- 01:09:13fertilized generation after in others at
- 01:09:16every single moment in the history of
- 01:09:17literature and general culture
- 01:09:19in bulgaria they look back at the 10th
- 01:09:22century as a sort of like a point of
- 01:09:23view
- 01:09:24of inspiration of to where to go from um
- 01:09:27there is even music in those bands in
- 01:09:30those in those countries that actually
- 01:09:32you know model their music so to speak
- 01:09:35or use themes inspired by the middle
- 01:09:38ages uh
- 01:09:39especially this creation of slavic of
- 01:09:41slavic culture
- 01:09:42um in the catholic countries that you
- 01:09:44used in the slavic catholic countries
- 01:09:46that used
- 01:09:47the landing alpha pollen bohemia
- 01:09:51croatia i already mentioned but in
- 01:09:53poland for example one of the most
- 01:09:54interesting aspect
- 01:09:56you mentioned legacy right
- 01:09:59one of the most interesting aspects of
- 01:10:01this is the
- 01:10:02uh the uh the fact that christianity
- 01:10:05actually
- 01:10:06won in poland so late like even by the
- 01:10:0813th century
- 01:10:09parts of poland especially the northeast
- 01:10:11were not christianized yet
- 01:10:12right so in the 19th century um
- 01:10:15any effort to rediscover an identity
- 01:10:18that was national meant at the same time
- 01:10:21trying to see what's underneath the
- 01:10:23catholic layer
- 01:10:24what's underneath the uh because
- 01:10:26christianity
- 01:10:27overlapped was superposed over something
- 01:10:29that apparently
- 01:10:30survived um in bohemia right
- 01:10:33the uh the the story of jerusalem the
- 01:10:36plowman and so forth is perceived as a
- 01:10:38purely
- 01:10:38uh uh should i say slavic stuff
- 01:10:41and you know that created the mindset
- 01:10:44right we slabs are not
- 01:10:45aristocrats and so we're down to earth
- 01:10:47people plumbing you know
- 01:10:48in other words it's it's it created a
- 01:10:50mindset the model of of casting yourself
- 01:10:53in the world socially speaking as
- 01:10:55somebody who actually has
- 01:10:57modest roots but can accomplish
- 01:10:59extraordinary feats
- 01:11:01ladies and gentlemen thank you for
- 01:11:02joining us tonight at the study of
- 01:11:04antiquity in the middle ages as we were
- 01:11:06joined by a phenomenal guest
- 01:11:09dr curtis who led us through a wonderful
- 01:11:12story spanning hundreds of years
- 01:11:15and it's fascinating i cannot thank him
- 01:11:18enough and honestly again
- 01:11:20check out the links in the video
- 01:11:22description below support his work
- 01:11:25and really take advantage of the awesome
- 01:11:28mind
- 01:11:28that he has that helps me and you better
- 01:11:32understand the subjects
- 01:11:33that we all love dr kurta thank you so
- 01:11:36much for coming on the show today
- 01:11:38thank you for having me it was a
- 01:11:41[Music]
- 01:11:52pleasure
- 01:13:31you
- Slavs
- Medieval History
- Archaeology
- Slavic Languages
- Cultural Influence
- Byzantine Descriptions
- Linguistic Theory
- Migration
- Eastern Europe
- Historical Origin