Point of No Return in Middle East & Ukraine - John Mearsheimer, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen
摘要
TLDRIn diesem ausführlichen Gespräch analysieren die Experten Glenn De, Alexander Mur und John Mimer die sich zuspitzenden Konflikte sowohl im Nahen Osten als auch in der Ukraine. Sie betrachten insbesondere die Gefahr einer Eskalation, die durch überstürzte militärische Manöver und die damit verbundene Koalitionsbildung im Westen ausgelöst werden könnte. In der Ukraine, so wird diskutiert, agiert die ukrainische Regierung mit riskanten militärischen Offensiven, die das Land überfordern und letztlich den Konflikt zugunsten Russlands entscheiden könnten. Mur stellt fest, dass die Offensive im Kers-Gebiet kaum strategischen Vorteil bietet und die Ukraine in eine schwächere Position manövriert. Für Israel wiederum stellt die unnachgiebige Haltung gegenüber den Nachbarländern ein langfristiges Risiko dar, da keine nachhaltigen militärischen Erfolge erkennbar sind und die Gefahr einer weiteren Eskalation mit Iran und anderen Akteuren der Region besteht. Mimer kritisiert, dass im Westen, sowohl bei der Ukraine- als auch bei der Israel-Politik, oft eine tiefere strategische Analyse fehlt und dass die aktuellen Vorgehensweisen nicht zu einem klaren Sieg oder einer langfristigen Stabilität führen können. Insgesamt kommen die Diskussionsteilnehmer zu dem Schluss, dass die westlichen Verbündeten keine erfolgreichen Strategien vorweisen, was zu einer längeren Fortdauer der Konflikte führen könnte. Das Gespräch endet mit der Erkenntnis, dass sowohl für die Ukraine als auch für Israel strategische Neuausrichtungen notwendig wären, um die eskalierten Konflikte zu deeskalieren und politischen Lösungen Platz zu machen.
心得
- 🌍 Eskalationen im Nahen Osten und Ukraine werfen strategische Fragen auf.
- ⚔️ Die ukrainische Offensive im Kers führt zu erhöhter Verwundbarkeit.
- 🇮🇱 Israels aktuelle Militärpolitik birgt langfristige Risiken.
- 🔍 Kritische Stimmen fordern eine tiefere Analyse westlicher Strategien.
- 🤔 Die Gefahr eines direkten Russland-NATO-Konflikts wächst.
- 🛡️ Viele aktuelle Konflikte fehlen klare Ziele und Exit-Strategien.
- 🪖 Beide Gesetze könnten langfristig nicht zu einem Sieg führen.
- 🗝️ Notwendig sind strategische Umorientierungen für nachhaltige Lösungen.
- 💡 Erkennen der Sicherheitsinteressen beider Konfliktparteien ist entscheidend.
- ⏳ Die jetzigen Maßnahmen könnten die Konflikte verlängern.
时间轴
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Die Eskalationen im Nahen Osten und in der Ukraine gehen weiter. Israel und Hisbollah tauschen Raketen aus, während der Ukraine-Konflikt sich zu einem Russland-NATO-Krieg ausweitet. Ein weniger vorhersehbarer Schritt war die Invasion der ukrainischen Region Kers durch die Ukraine mit NATO-Unterstützung. Dies scheint kurzfristig den ukrainischen Moral zu steigern, aber langfristig fehlen nachvollziehbare strategische Ziele. Die westlichen Medien berichten begeistert von einem Erfolg, obwohl die militärische Logik stark bezweifelt wird.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Die Invasion von Kers durch die Ukraine wird als ein großer Fehler angesehen, der sie militärisch überstrapaziert. Die Ukrainischen Streitkräfte sind zu dünn aufgestellt und leiden unter Nachschubproblemen. Für die ukrainische Führung könnte es ein Versuch sein, mehr westliche Unterstützung zu erlangen, aber militärisch ergibt die Offensive wenig Sinn. Die Gefahr einer erhöhten Verlustrate bei gleichzeitigem Mangel an strategischen Vorteilen ist hoch.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Der Krieg zwischen der Ukraine und Russland wird als Stellungskrieg beschrieben, bei dem die Verlustquote entscheidend ist. Die Ukraine hat sich in eine schwierige Lage gebracht, indem sie, geschwächt an der Ostfront, eine neue Offensive startet. Diese strategische Entscheidung wird die ukrainischen Verluste erhöhen, da die Offensive gegen eine überlegene russische Luftmacht ungeschützt stattfindet. Der russische Vorteil in der Luft führt zu hohen ukrainischen Verlusten, während die russischen Verluste durch die geringe Präsenz in der Gegend minimal sind.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Die Invasion der russischen Gegend durch die Ukraine gefährdet ihre eigene Kriegsführung und hat das Risiko von mehr Verlusten erhöht. Die russische Seite hat strategisch wichtige Gebiete wie Bakhmut ohne großen Widerstand eingenommen, während die Ukraine kurzsichtige Risiken eingeht. Die Möglichkeit eines Rückzugs auf ukrainischer Seite wird diskutiert, jedoch scheint Imagepflege für die Ukraine eine höhere Priorität zu haben, was trotz der militärischen Fehlentscheidungen eine Rücknahme erschwert.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Das ukrainische Engagement in Kers könnte den Kriegsverlust beschleunigen, und die Ukraine könnte gewinnen, indem sie strategisch defensive Linien hält. Die Invasion wird als impulsive Entscheidung beschrieben, die keine nachhaltigen militärischen Vorteile bringt. Die ukrainischen Entscheider agieren unter dem Druck der öffentlichen Meinung und westlicher Erwartungen, was zu einer Eskalation ohne klaren Nutzen führt.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Bedenkliche Gebiete gegen Russland einnehmen, um westliches Interesse und Unterstützung zu wecken, könnte kurzfristig erfolgreich sein, hat aber langfristig verheerende Konsequenzen für die Ukraine. Diese taktischen Siege durch Gebietserweiterungen überschatten das belastende Problem der Truppenverluste und des Mangels an nachhaltiger Strategie. Die Verwundbarkeit der Ukraine nimmt mit jedem derartigen Vorstoß zu.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Es entsteht der Eindruck, dass die westliche Strategie nicht langfristig durchdacht ist, insbesondere bei der Unterstützung der Ukraine. Die westliche Begeisterung für Gebietserfolge blockiert die kritische Auseinandersetzung mit den realen Kriegszielen und langfristigen Folgen. Es wird kritisiert, dass harte diplomatische und militärische Lösungen erforderlich wären, anstatt naiver Euphorie über taktische Gewinne.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Das westliche Verständnis für den Krieg wird als oberflächlich kritisiert, und es fehlt eine fundierte militärische Strategie. Die Expertenmeinungen weichen oft von der Realität ab, mit unrealistischen Siegesvorstellungen, welche die Komplexität des Konflikts ignorieren. Der Mangel an strategischem Verständnis könnte zu einem fortgesetzten Konflikt führen, obwohl das Ergebnis absehbar negativ sein könnte.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Ähnlich kritisch wird die pro-israelische Lobby in den USA betrachtet, die Israel zwangsläufig Unterstützung bietet, selbst wenn dies israelische Interessen langfristig verletzen könnte. Eine unreflektierte Unterstützungspolitik kann leicht in Eskalationen münden, die weder Israel noch den USA dienlich sind.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Der Konflikt im Nahen Osten wird als nachhaltig beschrieben, mit Israel, das in einen schwierigen militärischen Krieg verwickelt ist, ohne klare Siegchancen. Die israelische Fixierung auf militärische Lösungen verweigert das Erkennen von Verhandlungsmöglichkeiten, was das Risiko eines größeren Krieges erhöht.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:00
Die militärische Lage Israels hat sich über die Jahre verschärft, mit schwierigeren Herausforderungen und asymmetrischen Bedrohungen, die nur schwer zu kontrollieren sind. Die technologische Überlegenheit kann durch regionale Machtzentren und Nadelstiche ausgehebelt werden, was Israel in eine Verteidigungshaltung zwingt without klare Progression.
- 00:55:00 - 01:00:00
Russland und China könnten sich indirekt in den Nahostkonflikt einmischen, indem sie die von Israel angegriffenen Länder unterstützen. Das könnte die Situation weiter destabilisieren und zu einer breiteren, länger andauernden Konfrontation führen.
- 01:00:00 - 01:05:00
Der Westen sollte vorsichtig sein, um nicht in einen Krieg im Nahen Osten hineingezogen zu werden, der durch die Eskalationspolitik Israels, aber auch durch das Versagen westlicher Diplomatie ausgelöst werden könnte. Russland und China könnten in einem solchen Szenario eine alternative Unterstützung bieten, was die Komplexität weiter erhöht.
- 01:05:00 - 01:14:56
Die stärkste Kritik betrifft die übermäßige Abhängigkeit des Westens von militärischen Lösungen und einer Politik der Konfrontation, die die Chance auf ausgeglichene Diplomatie mindert. Eine rhetorische Strategie der Dämonisierung von Gegnern erschwert Friedenslösungen weiter.
思维导图
常见问题
Worüber diskutieren die Gesprächspartner in dem Video?
Die Gesprächspartner diskutieren die zunehmenden Spannungen im Nahen Osten und in der Ukraine, wobei der Fokus auf den militärischen und politischen Implikationen liegt.
Was sind die Hauptthemen des Videos?
Die Hauptpunkte sind die drohende Eskalation in der Ukraine und dem Nahen Osten sowie die westliche Unterstützung in diesen Konflikten.
Welche Risiken werden für die Ukraine besprochen?
Es wird diskutiert, dass die Ukraine durch überstürzte militärische Aktionen ihre eigene Lage verschlechtert und möglicherweise den Zusammenbruch ihres Militärs herbeiführt.
Welche Risiken sehen die Sprecher für Israel?
Die Diskussionsteilnehmer meinen, dass Israel durch militärische Überreaktionen seine strategische Position langfristig schwächt.
Unterstützen die Diskussionsteilnehmer die westliche Politik in Konflikten?
Nein, sie kritisieren die westliche Politik als unzureichend und führen aus, dass durch diese das Eskalationspotential nicht beseitigt wird.
Was kritisiert John Mimer an der westlichen Herangehensweise?
John Mimer kritisiert das Fehlen einer klaren Strategie und Analysen durch westliche Militärführer.
Wie sehen die Diskussionsteilnehmer die Gefahr eines direkten Russland-NATO-Konflikts?
Sie sehen das Risiko eines direkten Krieges zwischen Russland und der NATO als zunehmend wahrscheinlich an.
查看更多视频摘要
- 00:00:00hi everyone Glenn De here and I'm joined
- 00:00:02today by Alexander Mur and John mimer
- 00:00:07and as predicted uh escalations continue
- 00:00:10in both the Middle East and Ukraine and
- 00:00:13also as predicted Israel and Hezbollah
- 00:00:15has begun ping each other now with
- 00:00:17missiles and drones and um it appears
- 00:00:20they might have been taking a step back
- 00:00:22now at the brink of a wider Regional War
- 00:00:25however I suspect this might be
- 00:00:27temporary however this is something of
- 00:00:29course I would like to get your opinion
- 00:00:30on and uh meanwhile in Ukraine the
- 00:00:33escalation has also predictably
- 00:00:35continued as it seems we keep moving
- 00:00:38towards a direct Russia NATO War at
- 00:00:40least that's how I see it less
- 00:00:42predictable however was this uh type of
- 00:00:45escalation as nobody I think predicted
- 00:00:47Ukraine with uh seemingly the support of
- 00:00:50NATO would uh invade Russia that is the
- 00:00:54kers region so I thought that perhaps we
- 00:00:56should start with the Ukraine war
- 00:00:58because uh yeah key reason for why no
- 00:01:00one predicted the invasion of K is that
- 00:01:04well at least to me it does make much
- 00:01:06sense I guess uh and as we saw from
- 00:01:09Western Ukrainian and Russian observers
- 00:01:11they all seem to recognize it made no
- 00:01:13sense but again it boosted morale among
- 00:01:17the ukrainians and it allegedly
- 00:01:19humiliated Putin as well Western media
- 00:01:22keeps telling us and they seem to be
- 00:01:24very excited about uh so suddenly
- 00:01:26overnight The Narrative seemed to be
- 00:01:28changed and this was suddenly a great
- 00:01:30success and uh yeah Putin was on his
- 00:01:34back foot but anyways I thought this is
- 00:01:37a good topic to begin with how how would
- 00:01:40you to see the issue of uh The kurur
- 00:01:43Invasion is this a massive mistake or a
- 00:01:47great success uh how should we read the
- 00:01:50situation I usually start but this time
- 00:01:53I'll defer to Alexander come in behind
- 00:01:56him well I think the way to describe C
- 00:01:59is is a massive gamble which probably
- 00:02:03almost certainly will not pay off unless
- 00:02:08the ukrainians can somehow wangle out of
- 00:02:10it a a bigger Western escalation which
- 00:02:14takes us back to the point that you were
- 00:02:16making um at the start of the program
- 00:02:18Glenn that that's my own view I mean
- 00:02:20militarily now I'm not a military person
- 00:02:22as I constantly say but I do follow the
- 00:02:25war very closely and an exhausting thing
- 00:02:28it is but
- 00:02:30militarily to me at least it makes
- 00:02:33absolutely no sense at all the
- 00:02:34ukrainians massively overextended
- 00:02:37overstretched they're finding it very
- 00:02:39difficult now to hold even the most
- 00:02:42important locations their Logistics are
- 00:02:45starting to break down there's reports
- 00:02:48that thousands of people are deserting
- 00:02:50the desertion rate apparently has risen
- 00:02:52um there there they're losing their
- 00:02:55positions and yet instead of
- 00:02:58consolidating
- 00:03:00and trying to defend what can be
- 00:03:03defended they attacked in cusk and what
- 00:03:07were they trying to achieve well it's
- 00:03:10difficult to say um I when I looked at
- 00:03:13this it looked to me as if there's only
- 00:03:15one thing that they could go for which
- 00:03:17is the nuclear power station there the
- 00:03:20Russian authorities have essentially
- 00:03:23said the same thing it was a very very
- 00:03:28um unlike thing to capture they're still
- 00:03:32there they didn't capture it but they're
- 00:03:34still there and it looks as if they're
- 00:03:36very very overe extended so if that's
- 00:03:39right then it doesn't make much military
- 00:03:42sense it was a gamble that for the
- 00:03:44moment at least hasn't worked but it
- 00:03:47might be something which they still
- 00:03:49think they can leverage to get somebody
- 00:03:52in the west some the you know the west
- 00:03:54and governments ultimately the United
- 00:03:57States to come to their rescue to say
- 00:04:00you know that we we're in cusk we we've
- 00:04:02achieved all of this we're still
- 00:04:04fighting we still got energy we're still
- 00:04:07able to hit the Russians in places that
- 00:04:09matter all we need is for you to come
- 00:04:12and support us even more give us
- 00:04:14permission to use your missiles to
- 00:04:16strike deeper inside Russia and somehow
- 00:04:20in some way never fully explained that's
- 00:04:22all going to come right that that's what
- 00:04:25it looks like to
- 00:04:27me I uh don't disagree with that but
- 00:04:31want to come at it from a different
- 00:04:33angle I think it was crazy for the
- 00:04:37ukrainians to invade the kers region and
- 00:04:41I think if anything it's going to speed
- 00:04:43up their
- 00:04:44defeat and as Glenn intimated at the
- 00:04:47beginning of his comments probably the
- 00:04:50reason that the Russians were surprised
- 00:04:53is that they didn't think the ukrainians
- 00:04:55would be foolish enough to try to launch
- 00:04:57this offensive now the question is why
- 00:05:00am I saying this this is a good
- 00:05:02oldfashioned war of attration you know
- 00:05:04this is Joe Frasier and Muhammad Ali
- 00:05:07standing toe-to-toe you know trying to
- 00:05:09beat The Living Daylights out of each
- 00:05:11other uh to put it in slightly different
- 00:05:13terms here we have two armies that are
- 00:05:15trying to bleed each other white uh to
- 00:05:18get one uh to raise up its hands and
- 00:05:21quit before the other does uh and in a
- 00:05:25war of attrition like this what really
- 00:05:27matters is the casualty Exchange
- 00:05:30ratio and if you look at what the
- 00:05:33ukrainians did they were in a situation
- 00:05:36where they were losing on the Eastern
- 00:05:39Front there's just no question about
- 00:05:41that and the casualty exchange ratio on
- 00:05:44the Eastern Front clearly favored the
- 00:05:47Russians so what the ukrainians did is
- 00:05:50they weakened their forces on the
- 00:05:52Eastern front uh cobbled together a
- 00:05:56strike force that then went into Ukraine
- 00:05:59and the first question that pops into my
- 00:06:01brain when something like this happens
- 00:06:04is what happens to the casualty exchange
- 00:06:06ratio on the Eastern front and what is
- 00:06:08the casualty exchange ratio going to
- 00:06:11look like in the kers region well if you
- 00:06:14weaken your forces on the Eastern Front
- 00:06:17which of course the ukrainians do and
- 00:06:20the Russians do not that means that the
- 00:06:23casualty exchange ratio is going to
- 00:06:26shift even further towards the Russians
- 00:06:29because your forces are weakened they're
- 00:06:31spread out more thinly and the Russians
- 00:06:33are in a better position uh to attack
- 00:06:37Ukrainian positions and of course that
- 00:06:39is what's
- 00:06:40happening then look at what's happening
- 00:06:43in the KK region what's happening is
- 00:06:46very simple the ukrainians are taking
- 00:06:49the offensive and when you take the
- 00:06:52offensive in Modern Warfare especially
- 00:06:55in a war of attrition that means you get
- 00:06:57out of your holes you get out of your
- 00:06:59trenches and you start moving across
- 00:07:02open territory that means you're exposed
- 00:07:06to the adversary now you may be able to
- 00:07:10get away with that if you have air cover
- 00:07:13but the ukrainians do not have air cover
- 00:07:16in fact the Russians command the skies
- 00:07:19and furthermore they have a gazillion
- 00:07:21drones up there so you have these
- 00:07:24Ukrainian forces they're out on out in
- 00:07:26the open on the move and are providing a
- 00:07:31rich Target set for the Russians and the
- 00:07:35Russians of course who get caught with
- 00:07:37their pants down there's no question
- 00:07:39about that what they do is they bring in
- 00:07:41lots of drones they bring in lots of Tac
- 00:07:44Air and they bring in lots of artillery
- 00:07:47and they start pounding those Ukrainian
- 00:07:50forces that are out in the open and
- 00:07:52unsurprisingly there have been many
- 00:07:55thousands of Ukrainian casualties and
- 00:07:58they've lost an enormous
- 00:08:00number of armored vehicles and uh one
- 00:08:04analyst estimates that they've been
- 00:08:06losing two times as many armored
- 00:08:08vehicles per day in the K offensive than
- 00:08:11they were normally losing uh on the
- 00:08:14Eastern Front this is really quite
- 00:08:16shocking at first glance but once you
- 00:08:18think about it's not that shocking
- 00:08:20because they're now out in the open you
- 00:08:23want to remember the ukrainians are not
- 00:08:25out in the open uh on the Eastern Front
- 00:08:29they're again they're fighting from you
- 00:08:31know uh well fortified positions for the
- 00:08:34most part this is no longer the case
- 00:08:36when you're on the offensive so the
- 00:08:38ukrainians are suffering greatly in
- 00:08:40terms of the casualty exchange ratio but
- 00:08:43you may say well John what about the
- 00:08:46Russians aren't they suffering well the
- 00:08:48answer is no because there were hardly
- 00:08:51any Russian forces in the area for the
- 00:08:54ukrainians to kill why do you think the
- 00:08:57ukrainians were able to invade this
- 00:08:59territory and capture so much land the
- 00:09:02reason's quite simple there were hardly
- 00:09:04any Russians there to contest them so
- 00:09:06the Russian casualty levels are actually
- 00:09:09quite low I don't want to make light of
- 00:09:11the fact that probably quite a few
- 00:09:13Russian soldiers died or were badly
- 00:09:16wounded for sure but compared to the
- 00:09:19ukrainians small number so what's
- 00:09:22happened here if you put all these
- 00:09:23pieces together is that the ukrainians
- 00:09:27have weakened themselves on the
- 00:09:28critically important in Eastern front
- 00:09:30and if anything the casualty exchange
- 00:09:32ratio there will shift in favor of the
- 00:09:36Russians even more than it was before
- 00:09:38August 6 and then if you look at what's
- 00:09:41happening in uh the kers defensive I
- 00:09:44think this is just a disaster the last
- 00:09:46thing is you want to do is sort of get
- 00:09:48out of your holes and start moving out
- 00:09:50in the open as I said before so if
- 00:09:53anything when you put these two fronts
- 00:09:55together the Eastern front and the curse
- 00:09:57front and you ask yourself what's the
- 00:09:58bottom line
- 00:10:00I think the ukrainians have speeded up
- 00:10:03the rate at which they're going to lose
- 00:10:05this war and of course they are going to
- 00:10:07lose this war which was manifestly clear
- 00:10:09even before August 6 that's my basic
- 00:10:13take on this curs or can I just say that
- 00:10:16I also agree with all of that also I
- 00:10:18think that's entirely correct and if you
- 00:10:20follow events very closely I think it
- 00:10:23everything that You' just said the facts
- 00:10:25buried out uh by the way the commentator
- 00:10:28that you mentioned who says that they're
- 00:10:31losing uh that the ukrainians are losing
- 00:10:33armor at twice the rate that they were
- 00:10:36in other places before um he is very
- 00:10:39very Pro Ukrainian he's not someone who
- 00:10:42is at all I know um CR he's not a Critic
- 00:10:47of Ukraine but he's not crit he's not
- 00:10:50happy with this
- 00:10:51operation I think Alexander you're
- 00:10:54getting to the point now where it's
- 00:10:57difficult for even the most uh
- 00:11:00supportive uh individuals supportive of
- 00:11:03Ukraine those individuals to deny what's
- 00:11:06happening on the battlefield uh the
- 00:11:08writing is on the
- 00:11:11wall but it's um it seems that uh if if
- 00:11:16this is again this is a war of attrition
- 00:11:19and in a war of attrition you really
- 00:11:20want to as you point out ex exhaust
- 00:11:22adversary now it seems to me that uh
- 00:11:25Ukraine's defensive lines would be the
- 00:11:27best approach to do this because they
- 00:11:28have this multi-layered defensive line
- 00:11:30so it costs a lot for the Russians to
- 00:11:33break through both in Manpower and in
- 00:11:35terms of uh equipment so and every time
- 00:11:38the Russians break through the
- 00:11:39ukrainians can just fall back to the
- 00:11:41next pre-prepared line so they had this
- 00:11:44in donbas but instead this is what's
- 00:11:47surprising to me with this curs convas
- 00:11:49because they go into this wide open low
- 00:11:51populated areas with hardly any Russian
- 00:11:53soldiers and as you said they're out in
- 00:11:55the open they can be knocked out and uh
- 00:11:59you know not to draw too strong um
- 00:12:02parallel but you know when Napoleon and
- 00:12:04Hitler went in to Russia a key problem
- 00:12:06was protecting their supply lines now
- 00:12:09obviously this is a much smaller
- 00:12:12Invasion but nonetheless a key problem
- 00:12:14has been to be able to supply these
- 00:12:16forces because they're inside Russian
- 00:12:18territory and we see not only are they
- 00:12:20exposed to Russian drones and missiles
- 00:12:22but the Russians have been able to knock
- 00:12:23out the fuel supply which put grinds
- 00:12:26them to Halt and they can't really Pro
- 00:12:29defend these areas because they don't
- 00:12:31get engineering equipment into Russian
- 00:12:33territory either where they can
- 00:12:34effectively dig in and hold this
- 00:12:36position so the so I think that the part
- 00:12:39of the calculation of the ukrainians was
- 00:12:41there they go they storm into Russia
- 00:12:43Russia have to divert all its troops in
- 00:12:45towards KK to stop this down instead it
- 00:12:48looks like the Russians are just uh yes
- 00:12:52taking out the different troops and
- 00:12:53stabilizing the front lines meanwhile
- 00:12:55taking a huge advantage of what's
- 00:12:57Happening Now in D just as one example
- 00:13:01if you look at bov now this this towns
- 00:13:04which just keeps falling one after
- 00:13:05another this noo gka this within the
- 00:13:09three days this is a very strategic area
- 00:13:12right before poov the Russians took it
- 00:13:14they didn't even have to usually they
- 00:13:15had to destroy an entire town in order
- 00:13:17to move forward now they just sent in
- 00:13:19infantry and uh they took the town
- 00:13:21almost uh undamaged in in three days
- 00:13:25it's it's a it's completely absurd if
- 00:13:28you seen what's happened in the past so
- 00:13:29they gave up all this well fortified
- 00:13:32defensive line in order to go on
- 00:13:34defensive and uh I I can see what they
- 00:13:37wanted to go for but uh I'm not sure
- 00:13:40how now that it seems this has been a
- 00:13:42failure is it possible to walk this back
- 00:13:45because they're already in there what do
- 00:13:48they have to double down on failure or
- 00:13:49what is the likely uh Push by the
- 00:13:53ukrainians
- 00:13:55now John no go ahead go ahead no I was
- 00:13:59going to say was that I I I rather
- 00:14:02expected that they would pull back I
- 00:14:05thought that you know that they they
- 00:14:06tried to go in do something quickly and
- 00:14:09then pull out again for all the reasons
- 00:14:12that John and you Glenn have been saying
- 00:14:15and I know there were other people who
- 00:14:16thought this as well and by the way on
- 00:14:19the point about fortifications I'm in
- 00:14:21contact with the marine officer former
- 00:14:23Marine officer Jim Webb he's been
- 00:14:26writing since the summer what the
- 00:14:27ukrainians need to do is to build up
- 00:14:30more fortified positions embed
- 00:14:33themselves in fortified lines give up
- 00:14:35the idea of offensives um think in this
- 00:14:39very conservative way but he also by the
- 00:14:41way says they also need to start serious
- 00:14:45negotiations I think that's right but
- 00:14:48the ukrainians don't do this and I think
- 00:14:51what is probably driving this and it
- 00:14:54probably
- 00:14:55explains why the ukrainians cannot leave
- 00:14:58course
- 00:14:59now that they are there is that far too
- 00:15:02much of the way they conduct their war
- 00:15:05is about image management you know
- 00:15:07appearing to retreat without being
- 00:15:10pushed out is something that they can't
- 00:15:13bring themselves to do and I still think
- 00:15:16that they find the idea of
- 00:15:20negotiations real negotiations
- 00:15:22negotiations based on the actual
- 00:15:26realities impossible to concede conceive
- 00:15:29of Prime Minister Modi went to Kiev
- 00:15:33apparently he said to them you know I'm
- 00:15:35prepared to help you if you want to
- 00:15:38negotiate zalinski has just given an
- 00:15:40interview to the Indian media in which
- 00:15:43he says that he wants all of Ukraine's
- 00:15:46post 1991 territory back so until that
- 00:15:50mindset changes until they finally think
- 00:15:53in a different way I I think that I
- 00:15:56don't think they're going to retreat
- 00:15:57from kusk I don't they're going going to
- 00:16:00pull back and I'm beginning to wonder
- 00:16:02whether we're ever going to see any kind
- 00:16:04of negotiations whilst um the present
- 00:16:08government is in
- 00:16:10power let me make three quick points one
- 00:16:14is if I'm playing the Russians hand I do
- 00:16:17not want them to retreat I want them to
- 00:16:20stay there and I want them to take the
- 00:16:23offensive I want them to stay on the
- 00:16:25offensive I want them to have a simple
- 00:16:27model one that the French had going into
- 00:16:29World War I attack attack attack because
- 00:16:32if I'm a Russian Commander that's
- 00:16:35advantageous to me second point I would
- 00:16:38make is I think all three of us would
- 00:16:40agree that the ukrainians would have
- 00:16:42been smart not to launch the infamous
- 00:16:46counter offensive in the summer of 2023
- 00:16:49and back then stayed on the defensive as
- 00:16:52well that was foolish in the extreme
- 00:16:55because again the casualty exchange
- 00:16:57ratio drastic favored the Russians and
- 00:17:00they ended up capturing hardly any
- 00:17:03territory which is what they were trying
- 00:17:04to do third point is uh a lot of people
- 00:17:08like to uh compare the kers offensive by
- 00:17:13the
- 00:17:14ukrainians uh with uh the Battle of the
- 00:17:17Bulge but I think it's not really the
- 00:17:20best analogy I think the best analogy is
- 00:17:23Operation Blue which was the German
- 00:17:26offensive in World War II against the
- 00:17:29Soviet Union in
- 00:17:311942 you remember in 1941 the Soviets go
- 00:17:34in with OP operation Barbarosa and there
- 00:17:37are three big prongs one that goes
- 00:17:39toward Leningrad one that goes towards
- 00:17:41Moscow and one that goes into Ukraine uh
- 00:17:46after that fails in December 41 come the
- 00:17:49second year uh of The Campaign which is
- 00:17:531942 the Germans decide that they're
- 00:17:56going to drive deep into the caucuses
- 00:17:58they're going to take that southern
- 00:18:00prong concentrate on it and drive deep
- 00:18:02into the caucuses and they do Drive deep
- 00:18:06into the caucuses winning stunning
- 00:18:08Victory after stunning Victory but what
- 00:18:11happens is they outrun their logistical
- 00:18:14chain uh and they're un they're unable
- 00:18:18to supply The Cutting Edge forces the
- 00:18:21forces that are at the share P
- 00:18:24furthermore their flanks become exposed
- 00:18:27and this of course is what leads to the
- 00:18:29Battle of Stalingrad which is on their
- 00:18:31Northern flank so over the course of
- 00:18:331942 early
- 00:18:361943 what the Germans end up doing is
- 00:18:39getting
- 00:18:41clobbered and being forced to withdraw
- 00:18:44from this huge Salient they had created
- 00:18:47early in
- 00:18:491942 and the ukrainians are in a similar
- 00:18:53situation they're having huge logistical
- 00:18:56problems supplying their for es right
- 00:19:00and slowly but steadily the Russians are
- 00:19:02assembling forces that are going to
- 00:19:04crush them and they're going to have to
- 00:19:06get out of there in large part because
- 00:19:09of fear that they'll be crushed by
- 00:19:12blanking attacks so they're in a
- 00:19:14hopeless situation just like the Germans
- 00:19:17were in
- 00:19:191942 it looked initially like a big
- 00:19:22victory but over time and over time
- 00:19:26really matters when you're analyzing
- 00:19:28what happens in Warfare over time uh the
- 00:19:32Russians uh are going to deal a decisive
- 00:19:35blow to those Ukrainian forces in the KK
- 00:19:40region this is why I also criticized
- 00:19:43what I call the Western obsession with
- 00:19:45territory because this is they keep
- 00:19:48celebrating all of this as victories but
- 00:19:50as you said with each new territory
- 00:19:51taken they lose a lot of men and also
- 00:19:55they get stuck there so now with this
- 00:19:56huge casualty rates what are they going
- 00:19:58to do with all the new recruits they're
- 00:19:59able to assemble everything has to be
- 00:20:01sent in to reinforce and the deeper they
- 00:20:05get into Russia the the worse the
- 00:20:06situation gets the the less air support
- 00:20:09they have or less air defense uh which
- 00:20:12means yeah they can be pummeled the
- 00:20:14logistic lines uh become worse and worse
- 00:20:16and it feels like all the benefits uh
- 00:20:19aren't really there of course one of the
- 00:20:21objectives was to contribute to pull in
- 00:20:23NATO indeed seninsky kept kept making
- 00:20:25this argument that look we can invade
- 00:20:27Russia they're not doing anything uh you
- 00:20:29know all red lines are broken so you
- 00:20:31know let us strike Moscow effectively
- 00:20:33with long range and uh but there's also
- 00:20:35this idea that they would Panic the
- 00:20:36Russians instead it looks like the
- 00:20:38Russians are taking it with great ease
- 00:20:40instead taking advantage of
- 00:20:42this poorly defended front lines in the
- 00:20:46poov correction also the idea I mean I
- 00:20:49know it's become common sense in the
- 00:20:50west this humiliation of Putin but I see
- 00:20:53the opposite now for the Russians this
- 00:20:54used to be a war intervening in Ukraine
- 00:20:58uh to prevent NATO's incursion and
- 00:21:00protecting Russian speakers but now uh
- 00:21:03they're defining it as a war of
- 00:21:05Liberation as uh the ukrainians backed
- 00:21:07by NATO has invaded their Homeland I
- 00:21:09mean this
- 00:21:11is this is a just is a terrible terrible
- 00:21:15idea but you can't really say it uh
- 00:21:18because uh well again everything is if
- 00:21:21you if you say this is bad then you're
- 00:21:24seen as not you know crushing the morale
- 00:21:26of the ukrainians and you're boosting
- 00:21:27the morale of the Russian so everyone
- 00:21:29kind of has to nod and go along that
- 00:21:31yeah yeah of course you know celebrate
- 00:21:33this metrics of territory being taken
- 00:21:35even though this doesn't seem to be the
- 00:21:37best way of measuring
- 00:21:39success if I can just jump in and make a
- 00:21:42quick point on territory and Link it to
- 00:21:45the casualty exchange ratio one of the
- 00:21:49criticisms of people in the west who
- 00:21:51focus on territory is that the Russians
- 00:21:54have not captured altogether that much
- 00:21:57territory
- 00:21:59and I think there's an element of Truth
- 00:22:01in that but the reason that is true is
- 00:22:04that the Russians are remarkably careful
- 00:22:07in terms of the tactics they use to make
- 00:22:10sure that they minimize Russian
- 00:22:13casualties so you know you hear all this
- 00:22:16talk not as much as you used to but you
- 00:22:18still hear it occasionally where the
- 00:22:20Russians are sending wave after wave of
- 00:22:23untrained soldiers into this meat
- 00:22:25grinder and therefore the Russians are a
- 00:22:28suffering enormous casualties especially
- 00:22:31when compared to the Ukrainian if you
- 00:22:33look at Russian casualties you look at
- 00:22:35the various indicators that's simply not
- 00:22:37true and the reason it's not true is
- 00:22:40that the tactics they are employing are
- 00:22:42very clever tactics that are designed
- 00:22:45not to maximize the amount of territory
- 00:22:48they capture but are designed to
- 00:22:50minimize the number of Russian
- 00:22:52casualties so the Russian casualties
- 00:22:55remain quite low as Wars of attrition go
- 00:22:59whereas the Ukrainian casualties are
- 00:23:01through the roof uh I don't know what
- 00:23:04the final count is going to look like
- 00:23:06but I would not be surprised if when all
- 00:23:10is said and done in this war that the
- 00:23:12ukrainians have suffered three times as
- 00:23:15many casualties as the Russians have I'm
- 00:23:17not saying that's for sure because as
- 00:23:19both of you know as well as I do it's
- 00:23:21really tough to come up with solid
- 00:23:23numbers but my guess is that the
- 00:23:25ukrainians are just suffering much more
- 00:23:28uh than the Russians much suffering much
- 00:23:31greater casualties and of course this
- 00:23:33has a lot to do with the imbalance and
- 00:23:35artillery and air power as well I don't
- 00:23:37want to make light of that but I also
- 00:23:39think it has a lot to do with the fact
- 00:23:41that the Russians are not obsessed with
- 00:23:43taking territory they understand it's a
- 00:23:45war of attrition and what they're doing
- 00:23:47is minimizing their casualties and
- 00:23:49maximizing Ukrainian
- 00:23:52casualties I think you can see that
- 00:23:54visibly on the battlefronts now that um
- 00:23:57so many of the best Ukrainian troops
- 00:24:00have been attrition out of the picture I
- 00:24:02mean they've been killed or they're
- 00:24:05wounded or whatever reason they're no
- 00:24:08longer there and the people who are
- 00:24:10replacing them are not The Replacements
- 00:24:13that they were and that by the way we're
- 00:24:16reading in the American the British
- 00:24:18media there's articles about this now
- 00:24:21that Ukrainian um numbers uh of men that
- 00:24:26they can put put in the front lines are
- 00:24:30down and that their um the quality of
- 00:24:34their soldiers is declining and that's
- 00:24:37the product of attrition which is not
- 00:24:39affecting the Russians at all in the
- 00:24:43same way now what has to happen before
- 00:24:47people in the west understand this
- 00:24:49because this is what I find so strange
- 00:24:52because we have this situation repeat
- 00:24:55itself time after time when um we can
- 00:24:58see that the ukrainians suffer this
- 00:25:00terrible
- 00:25:01attrition
- 00:25:03and there doesn't seem to be any
- 00:25:07capacity on the part of some people in
- 00:25:10the west quite important people Western
- 00:25:13governments our British government we've
- 00:25:16had quite a lot of Revelations about
- 00:25:18what is being discussed in London it
- 00:25:21seems that in London the new prime
- 00:25:24minister and his officials were elated
- 00:25:27by the these events in K they don't seem
- 00:25:31to understand at all that territory is
- 00:25:34not really the issue in the war at least
- 00:25:37in the way that they imagined they on
- 00:25:40the contrary went out of their way to
- 00:25:43try and Associate themselves with this
- 00:25:46Ukrainian
- 00:25:48success what has to happen before they
- 00:25:52suddenly understand that this is an
- 00:25:54attrition war and not a war in which you
- 00:25:57know the the advantage is um you know
- 00:26:02provided the metric of success is
- 00:26:05territory do we have to see a total
- 00:26:07Ukrainian defeat do we have to see
- 00:26:09hundreds of thousands of people killed I
- 00:26:13mean will when will the penny drop does
- 00:26:16the Pentagon understand that I would
- 00:26:18have thought that they would least would
- 00:26:20just
- 00:26:22asking I think Alexander as long as it's
- 00:26:25the ukrainians who are doing the dying
- 00:26:27dying and not
- 00:26:29westerners uh we are we in the west are
- 00:26:32are willing to continue this war forever
- 00:26:36I think what's going to end it is one of
- 00:26:38two things either the Ukrainian military
- 00:26:41is collapse uh which is a serious
- 00:26:44possibility as we've discussed before on
- 00:26:46this show it's not likely or for certain
- 00:26:50but it's a serious
- 00:26:53possibility uh that's one possible way
- 00:26:56of ending this war and the other is that
- 00:26:58the ukrainians come to the realization
- 00:27:01there's no way they can win this and if
- 00:27:03they do continue it the situation is
- 00:27:05just going to deteriorate again this is
- 00:27:07an argument the three of us have been
- 00:27:08making for a long long time and it is
- 00:27:12possible uh that the ukrainians will
- 00:27:15realize the power of the logic behind
- 00:27:17this argument and try to work out a deal
- 00:27:21uh and but I think absent those two
- 00:27:25possibilities it's just hard to see how
- 00:27:27this one is shut down uh anytime
- 00:27:30soon I think this is a this expectation
- 00:27:35and excitement about territory is also
- 00:27:37quite harmful because you know I made
- 00:27:40also point before that seninsky is often
- 00:27:42criticized for you know what's often
- 00:27:44well defined as PR stunts but one also
- 00:27:47has to keep in mind that these PR stunts
- 00:27:49are necessary for him in order to put uh
- 00:27:52Ukraine back in the headlines and to
- 00:27:54make the West excited and send more
- 00:27:55weapons because uh you know we were all
- 00:27:58talking about how Ukraine was losing and
- 00:28:00people kind of lost interest in it and
- 00:28:02suddenly now it's top of the news
- 00:28:04Ukraine is winning again we're excited
- 00:28:06we're going to send weapons and of
- 00:28:08course all it's all nonsense it's going
- 00:28:09to end up much much worse but uh but
- 00:28:11this is kind of the game they have to
- 00:28:13play as well because of the way we in
- 00:28:15the west are responding to this and I
- 00:28:17think um it seems to me that uh a key
- 00:28:21problem is again how we Define this uh
- 00:28:24as I mentioned before you said even the
- 00:28:26pro ukrainians are now getting very
- 00:28:27worse but from my perspective what has
- 00:28:30been Pro Ukrainian uh as as you also
- 00:28:32said M for more than 10 years
- 00:28:35is that they shouldn't go down this path
- 00:28:38they don't invite NATO onto your
- 00:28:39territory this is not pro Ukrainian this
- 00:28:41will assure the destruction of Ukraine
- 00:28:44and the same with this uh you know
- 00:28:45shutting down their media political
- 00:28:47opposition now Banning the church
- 00:28:49Orthodox Church is this is causing deep
- 00:28:52divisions in Ukrainian Society is making
- 00:28:54it more difficult now to defend
- 00:28:56themselves and maintain solidarity and
- 00:28:59same with the peace agreements this is
- 00:29:00also people who said no we should make
- 00:29:03peace with the Russians otherwise we're
- 00:29:04going to end up with a worse deal this
- 00:29:05was seem to be Pro Russian and now the
- 00:29:07pro ukrainians were the one who
- 00:29:09essentially said no no let's not
- 00:29:11Implement them let's choose war or the
- 00:29:14the counter offensive this was also you
- 00:29:16know if you criticized it then you were
- 00:29:18anti-ukrainian it just seems for me that
- 00:29:21uh it doesn't matter what the outcome is
- 00:29:23it's always just if you say um that you
- 00:29:26that you well push for this counter
- 00:29:30fensive or now invasion of KK it just
- 00:29:32shows that you're taken one side instead
- 00:29:35of the Russian side it seems like
- 00:29:36whatever might be preferred by the
- 00:29:38Russians uh is immediately seen as being
- 00:29:41anti-ukrainian but I think over and over
- 00:29:43again we keep seeing quite the opposite
- 00:29:45that all this um so-called Pro Ukrainian
- 00:29:49positions ends up just devastating the
- 00:29:51country imagine if you know we wouldn't
- 00:29:53have toppled the government or any of
- 00:29:55these terrible decisions but nonetheless
- 00:29:57every everything horrible to Ukraine is
- 00:30:00always positioned as being pro a
- 00:30:02pro-ukrainian policy simply because
- 00:30:04Russia might benefit the iron is of
- 00:30:06course if you threaten Russia Ukraine
- 00:30:09will definitely not benefit and um
- 00:30:12yeah you know just to pick up on this uh
- 00:30:16it's interesting if you look at the
- 00:30:18Israeli case and the Ukrainian case here
- 00:30:22are two countries that are in deep
- 00:30:23trouble I know we're going to discuss
- 00:30:25the Israeli issue shortly but is Israel
- 00:30:28is in deep trouble and what it's doing
- 00:30:30is doubling down which is not what it
- 00:30:33should be doing it should be thinking
- 00:30:35about how to get out of the mess that
- 00:30:36it's in but it's not just making a bad
- 00:30:39situation worse and the same thing is
- 00:30:41true with the ukrainians and in both
- 00:30:44cases you have the west and here we're
- 00:30:46talking mainly about the United States
- 00:30:48although not exclusively because the
- 00:30:50British and the Germans are joined at
- 00:30:52the hip with the United States in both
- 00:30:54of these instances but anyway we in the
- 00:30:58west are backing the Israelis as they
- 00:31:01dig deeper and deeper and we are backing
- 00:31:04the ukrainians as they dig deeper and
- 00:31:07deeper and you really sort of wonder
- 00:31:10about the collective wisdom of the
- 00:31:11foreign policy establishment in the west
- 00:31:15especially in the United States from my
- 00:31:17point of view what are these people
- 00:31:18thinking it just seems to me that
- 00:31:20anybody who looks at these conflicts in
- 00:31:22a cold and calculating way which is the
- 00:31:25way that we do it's kind of hard to
- 00:31:27avoid void the conclusions that we're
- 00:31:29reaching I don't mean to sound like I'm
- 00:31:32patting the three of us on the back but
- 00:31:35I just sometimes scratch my head and say
- 00:31:38I listen to this Western propaganda
- 00:31:41about both Israel and about Ukraine what
- 00:31:43these people thinking the facts on the
- 00:31:45ground bear a little resemblance to the
- 00:31:47story that they're telling well I think
- 00:31:50this is absolutely correct you don't
- 00:31:52need to be a genius to see that Ukraine
- 00:31:54is losing the war it's it's obvious
- 00:31:58it what is this operation in kusk
- 00:32:01actually achieved so far it's captured
- 00:32:03one small town of 5,000 people and a
- 00:32:06couple of villages you know a large
- 00:32:08number of very little villages in a
- 00:32:11forested and thinly populated area and
- 00:32:14it's costing Ukraine thousands of men
- 00:32:16and in the meantime exactly as Glenn
- 00:32:18said all they M the places like bakov a
- 00:32:22major logistical place a big industrial
- 00:32:25center all of that is about to be lost
- 00:32:28this it doesn't need you to be an
- 00:32:33analyst of any great ability to see that
- 00:32:37but you never see it discussed in that
- 00:32:40way it it's it's always discussed in
- 00:32:43this incredibly emotional terms at least
- 00:32:46certainly in Britain it is invocations
- 00:32:48of Churchill talk about appeasement not
- 00:32:52appeasing the dictator uh it's always
- 00:32:55discussed in terms of political will you
- 00:32:58know if we have the will to give the
- 00:33:00support to Ukraine that Ukraine needs
- 00:33:03whatever that support is there's never
- 00:33:05any discussion I noticed ever about
- 00:33:09actual material possibilities what
- 00:33:12number of weapons or what number amount
- 00:33:15of money or what it would be needed to
- 00:33:17do to turn this thing round it's never
- 00:33:19talked about in that way it's always
- 00:33:21about Will and emotion it's never about
- 00:33:24the kind of analysis that well
- 00:33:28I think in our own different ways each
- 00:33:30of us tries to
- 00:33:32do yeah when I uh was younger uh and
- 00:33:37began my PhD work and then my early
- 00:33:40career as an academic uh I wrote about
- 00:33:43conventional deterrence and I studied
- 00:33:45the conventional balance in Europe uh I
- 00:33:48studied the Israeli Wars very carefully
- 00:33:515667
- 00:33:5373 uh and I studied World War I and
- 00:33:57World War too I know an enormous amount
- 00:33:59about how those Wars uh were fought and
- 00:34:03of course I was in the American Military
- 00:34:04during the Vietnam war so I paid great
- 00:34:07attention to the question of how the
- 00:34:08United States uh might be able to win or
- 00:34:12maybe can't win that war and so forth
- 00:34:14and so on and the one thing I learned in
- 00:34:17all those studies is that you have to
- 00:34:20have a theory of Victory you have to
- 00:34:22have a story that tells how you're going
- 00:34:24to win and you have to be able to figure
- 00:34:26out what are the things that really
- 00:34:28matter on the battlefield that determine
- 00:34:31whether side a wins or side B wins and
- 00:34:36if you look at the analysis that's done
- 00:34:39in the west and this includes by these
- 00:34:42generals who are on television as well
- 00:34:45as all of these civilian military
- 00:34:49experts uh who are trotted out to tell
- 00:34:52us what is likely to happen as a result
- 00:34:55of X Y and Z on these battlefields
- 00:34:58most of them do not have a good
- 00:35:00understanding of how Wars are actually
- 00:35:02fought and most of them do not have a
- 00:35:04theory of Victory uh for winning uh Wars
- 00:35:09of one sort or another and I think this
- 00:35:12this lack of depth uh uh this inability
- 00:35:16to sort of analyze Wars in a really sort
- 00:35:20of sophisticated or semi sophisticated
- 00:35:23way is really quite stunning and the end
- 00:35:26result is you have these generals who
- 00:35:28are trotted out as you know great seers
- 00:35:31of the future who end up with egg all
- 00:35:35over their face I mean David Petraeus
- 00:35:37talking about the counter offensive and
- 00:35:39where it's going to lead even when the
- 00:35:41counter offensive was clearly doomed he
- 00:35:43was predicting Victory and you just sort
- 00:35:46of say to yourself what's this guy
- 00:35:48thinking where are we here but that's
- 00:35:51the story in the west and that's why uh
- 00:35:55most people in the west think about
- 00:35:57these different Wars so differently than
- 00:35:59we do I think it's I when you mentioned
- 00:36:03your doctor I thought about my own PhD
- 00:36:05because I did the PHD on the postc Cold
- 00:36:07War European security architecture
- 00:36:09organized around the EU and NATO as
- 00:36:11interd Democratic security institutions
- 00:36:13and I thought it was also interesting
- 00:36:14because I I looked at it from the extent
- 00:36:16to which it either um reduced or
- 00:36:19intensified the security Dilemma to cut
- 00:36:21effectively Russia out of the new Europe
- 00:36:23as long as it's organized around these
- 00:36:25so-called Democratic institutions and
- 00:36:27and and found it interesting because if
- 00:36:28you look at security dilemma again the
- 00:36:30security competition should really be
- 00:36:31the Point of Departure in any discussion
- 00:36:33of security that is but uh I I noticed
- 00:36:36very quickly when I went to any
- 00:36:37conferences or anything to discuss the
- 00:36:39security dilemma everyone was quite
- 00:36:42comfortable discussing how Russia
- 00:36:44undermines our security but as soon as
- 00:36:46you pointed out how we might undermine
- 00:36:48their security it was almost as if it
- 00:36:51was trees like why why are you taking
- 00:36:53their side and for me it was a bit
- 00:36:55shocking because if you discuss the
- 00:36:58security concern of the other guy how is
- 00:37:00it possible to find any political
- 00:37:02Solutions and it kind of dawned on me
- 00:37:04this is a essentially the world we're
- 00:37:06living now we're not discussing
- 00:37:07political Solutions and I can't remember
- 00:37:10ever opening any newspaper watching a TV
- 00:37:12program where they actually discuss well
- 00:37:14this is what the Russians are worried
- 00:37:15about this is how their security policy
- 00:37:17addresses this concern now how can we
- 00:37:19increase our Security based on what they
- 00:37:21were never we never indeed the whole
- 00:37:24concept of recognizing Russian legit
- 00:37:27legitimate security concern is some kind
- 00:37:28of an appeasement and this is
- 00:37:30interpreted as being loyal to our side
- 00:37:33instead of taking their side but the
- 00:37:35great irony is we we can't enhance our
- 00:37:37own security if we don't recognize that
- 00:37:40we also then can't always increase our
- 00:37:42security at the expense of theirs and
- 00:37:44that's why I thought it was interesting
- 00:37:45you drew both you drew this link to
- 00:37:47Israel because it's the same there I
- 00:37:49mean if you care about Israel it's Al
- 00:37:52always translated into if Pro
- 00:37:54pro-israeli means you make excuses for
- 00:37:56the war they're fighting in Gaza and you
- 00:37:59want to delegitimize the other sides or
- 00:38:01the Palestinians Hezbollah Iran but this
- 00:38:03is the opposite of which should should
- 00:38:05have been doing because we're putting
- 00:38:06them on a path to Suicide it seems uh
- 00:38:09you know we should be looking at the
- 00:38:11legitimate security concerns they have
- 00:38:13not everything but the legitimate ones
- 00:38:14and address it to again reduce the
- 00:38:17security competition and but we're doing
- 00:38:20none of this instead it's always if
- 00:38:21you're Pro Ukrainian just do anything
- 00:38:24that's anti-russian and if you're pro
- 00:38:26Israel just push hard and ignore the the
- 00:38:29rivals for me it seems like a yeah
- 00:38:32coition course and uh yeah on that topic
- 00:38:35I guess to what extent are we Alexander
- 00:38:38and John on a coition course now because
- 00:38:41uh many people are breathing out that
- 00:38:43you know the Israelis and Hezbollah and
- 00:38:46all has taking a step back but uh are
- 00:38:48are they really or taking a pause where
- 00:38:51are we standing here uh I'm just going
- 00:38:53to express my my own quick view I I was
- 00:38:56listening to prime minister Netanyahu
- 00:38:58when he came to the United States and he
- 00:39:01addressed Congress and my own view I
- 00:39:04mean I've been listening to Netanyahu
- 00:39:06for a long time much of what he said was
- 00:39:08not new but I got the sense that he very
- 00:39:12very much is looking to escalate and to
- 00:39:15have a wider war and I think everything
- 00:39:17that he's done since that speech the
- 00:39:19assassination of Han in Teran the uh uh
- 00:39:24sabotaging of every attempt to achieve a
- 00:39:27peace a ceasefire in Gaza his rhetoric
- 00:39:31against Iran his previous attack on the
- 00:39:34embassy in
- 00:39:35Damascus um the latest events that we've
- 00:39:38seen over the last couple of days all of
- 00:39:41that tells me that he wants a war he
- 00:39:42wants escalation and and we don't seem
- 00:39:45to be doing anything at all to tell him
- 00:39:48stop on the contrary when we and by the
- 00:39:53way in this I include the British were
- 00:39:55absolutely full fully engaged in this
- 00:39:58whenever it comes to telling people we
- 00:40:01need es we need moderation we need
- 00:40:04restraint it's the Iranians we address
- 00:40:06it to even though recently maybe not
- 00:40:11always but in the last couple of months
- 00:40:14ever since the events last October it's
- 00:40:17the Iranians who've been exercising
- 00:40:19restraint so we ask for more restraint
- 00:40:21from the party that's exercising
- 00:40:24restraint and we never ask the same from
- 00:40:27the side that isn't that's how it looks
- 00:40:30to me so given that this is the
- 00:40:32situation I cannot see how it can end in
- 00:40:35any other way than in a smash now I'll
- 00:40:39be interested to hear what Professor MIM
- 00:40:42has to
- 00:40:42say just before I uh talk specifically
- 00:40:46about uh the Middle East uh I would note
- 00:40:51that both
- 00:40:53zinski and Netanyahu were trying to drag
- 00:40:56the drag the United States into their
- 00:41:00Wars and in both cases the United States
- 00:41:03wants to stay
- 00:41:05out but yahu is not acting all that
- 00:41:09differently from zilinski and one could
- 00:41:11argue that the reason zeny invaded
- 00:41:14Ukraine one of the reasons was to uh
- 00:41:18cause the Russians to retaliate in a way
- 00:41:20that would the Americans in so the
- 00:41:23United States has to be very careful
- 00:41:25that it doesn't get dragged into either
- 00:41:26one of those Wars now I agree with
- 00:41:29Alexander but just to embellish his
- 00:41:31point a bit uh and talk a bit about what
- 00:41:35net Yahoo's uh nitty-gritty incentives
- 00:41:38are uh first of all I think he wants to
- 00:41:41drag us into a war with Ukraine with
- 00:41:45Iran so that we bash Iran Iran is
- 00:41:49weakened and I think he's especially
- 00:41:51hopeful that we destroy its nuclear
- 00:41:53capabilities because as you both know
- 00:41:56the Ukraine the uranians are not far
- 00:41:58away uh from becoming a nuclear weapon
- 00:42:01state because they've been enriching uh
- 00:42:03Uranian up to
- 00:42:0560% uh that's one reason another reason
- 00:42:08is he wants the war to continue he
- 00:42:10doesn't want the war to end uh because
- 00:42:13he fears that if it ends he'll be
- 00:42:15toppled from Power third reason and a
- 00:42:18very important reason he's bent on
- 00:42:20ethnically cleansing Gaza and he'd like
- 00:42:22to ethnically cleanse the West Bank as
- 00:42:24well and the Israelis know that the best
- 00:42:27opportunity for cleansing comes with a
- 00:42:29big war you want to remember that two
- 00:42:31big cleansings that have taken place so
- 00:42:34far with theba in
- 00:42:361948 with the Israelis in the context of
- 00:42:39that war drove probably about three4 of
- 00:42:42a million Palestinians out of the
- 00:42:44country and then the second big
- 00:42:46expulsion was in the wake of the 1967
- 00:42:50war when they probably drove about
- 00:42:52250,000 Palestinians out of the West
- 00:42:55Bank so I think their belief is that if
- 00:42:58they can get a uh a big war going that
- 00:43:02will provide the perfect opportunity uh
- 00:43:05to ethnically cleanse Gaza and maybe
- 00:43:07even ethnically cleanse some of the West
- 00:43:10Bank uh so for all those reasons I think
- 00:43:14uh Netanyahu really wants to get the
- 00:43:16Americans involved the Americans of
- 00:43:18course are going to Great Lengths not to
- 00:43:20get involved we're doing everything we
- 00:43:22can to tell the Iranians not to
- 00:43:24retaliate uh we didn't want head lot to
- 00:43:28retaliate and uh and we're doing
- 00:43:30everything we can I shouldn't say that
- 00:43:32that's
- 00:43:33incorrect we're trying Without Really
- 00:43:37Trying to put a a ceasefire in place in
- 00:43:41Gaza uh but uh but I think Alexander may
- 00:43:45be right uh with regard to uh uh the
- 00:43:49Middle East that uh a big conflict is
- 00:43:52coming and that despite the best efforts
- 00:43:54of the United States uh there's we can
- 00:43:57do about it I would note uh Alexander I
- 00:44:00know you've talked about this the uhu uh
- 00:44:04the Iranians have not retaliated yet but
- 00:44:07if you listen to them talk it's hard to
- 00:44:09believe they're not going to retaliate
- 00:44:11at some point and my sense there for
- 00:44:14what it's worth is the Iranians are
- 00:44:17waiting till the Americans draw down
- 00:44:20their forces in the
- 00:44:22region and we in effect let down our
- 00:44:25guard and the Israeli do the same thing
- 00:44:29and then they'll strike but if the
- 00:44:33Iranians strike and again they indicate
- 00:44:36that they are going to strike and it is
- 00:44:38a significant strike the Israelis are
- 00:44:41really going to go back at them and
- 00:44:43furthermore when the Iranians do strike
- 00:44:46we the Americans and even the Europeans
- 00:44:48the British and the French are committed
- 00:44:51to helping the Israeli so we were going
- 00:44:54to get we are going to get dragged into
- 00:44:55the conflict so we may have this uh you
- 00:44:59know big conflict that the United States
- 00:45:02is actually trying to
- 00:45:05avoid I I I I completely agree and by
- 00:45:08the way on the question of being dragged
- 00:45:10in uh Israel is not just trying to drag
- 00:45:13in the United States it's trying to drag
- 00:45:16in the Europeans as well there was a
- 00:45:18it's not been widely reported but the
- 00:45:20Israeli foreign minister Mr Katz had a
- 00:45:23meeting with the British and French
- 00:45:25foreign ministers and he said if Iran
- 00:45:27attacks um Israel and Israel needs to
- 00:45:32conduct a Counterattack against Iran
- 00:45:35well you know it's been told it's it's
- 00:45:38been promised in effect by the British
- 00:45:40and the French that they'll be there
- 00:45:42with Israel now that almost certainly
- 00:45:44was not true I'm sure that the British
- 00:45:47and the French made no such promise that
- 00:45:51meeting and in fact when the actual
- 00:45:54eventual readout was provided by the
- 00:45:57Israeli foreign Ministry it it it sort
- 00:46:00of toned all that down but apparently
- 00:46:02those words were in fact said so you can
- 00:46:05see what's happening the the Israelis
- 00:46:07are trying to get as many people they're
- 00:46:09trying to create in effect an
- 00:46:11International Coalition around
- 00:46:13themselves to fight Iran I don't think
- 00:46:16they're going to get it I don't think
- 00:46:17the British public for example is in any
- 00:46:20mood to get itself drawn into a war with
- 00:46:22Iran or with Russia for that matter by
- 00:46:25the way but um I sense myself that
- 00:46:30Netanyahu wants his war and I think he's
- 00:46:32going to get it at some point I don't
- 00:46:34know how it's going to play out but or
- 00:46:36how the steps that are going to get us
- 00:46:39there but I
- 00:46:40think that's probably where he's taking
- 00:46:43us and by the way just to say your
- 00:46:46suggestion of why the Iranians are
- 00:46:47waiting I think that's
- 00:46:49a probably almost certainly right I I
- 00:46:54would I I I I never thought of it before
- 00:46:57but I think that's exactly the kind of
- 00:46:59waiting game that they like to play and
- 00:47:01I think you probably hit the nail on the
- 00:47:04head on
- 00:47:05that yeah but you know just to take this
- 00:47:07a step further uh the question I would
- 00:47:10ask you two guys
- 00:47:12is how does Israel win any of these
- 00:47:17conflicts I mean if you look at what
- 00:47:19happened with Hamas in Gaza it's hard to
- 00:47:22argue the Israelis won uh certainly
- 00:47:26given the goals that they had which were
- 00:47:27to destroy uh Hamas and uh eliminate any
- 00:47:32sort of meaningful military threat from
- 00:47:34Gaza they didn't succeed and even if you
- 00:47:36look at the recent exchange between
- 00:47:39Hezbollah and Israel how is that a
- 00:47:43military victory for Israel how does
- 00:47:45that solve their problem Hezbollah still
- 00:47:49standing hasbalah by the way did not use
- 00:47:53any of its ballistic missiles to attack
- 00:47:56Israel so has this huge inventory of
- 00:47:58ballistic missiles and still drones and
- 00:48:01Rockets and so forth and so on the
- 00:48:04threat is still there they're still
- 00:48:06going to continue to be firing each at
- 00:48:08each other Israel doesn't have
- 00:48:10escalation dominance all of those people
- 00:48:13who have been displaced from the
- 00:48:15northern border of Israel into the
- 00:48:18center of the country still can't get go
- 00:48:20back to their homes so how did what
- 00:48:23happen
- 00:48:24yesterday uh represent how does that
- 00:48:28represent a victory I just don't
- 00:48:31understand and if you go to war against
- 00:48:33Iran tell me the story as to how that
- 00:48:36leads to Victory does anybody seriously
- 00:48:38think that the United States and Israel
- 00:48:41pounding Iran is going to produce a
- 00:48:43military victory for Israel that it's
- 00:48:46going to put an end to the Iran Israel
- 00:48:48conflict hard for me to see uh so I mean
- 00:48:52the Israelis are you know doubling down
- 00:48:54they're using military force uh as much
- 00:48:57as ever but what is it buying
- 00:49:00them that's been a general problem over
- 00:49:03the past 30 years whenever we go to war
- 00:49:06we never Define Victory the which is
- 00:49:08also implicitly the the exit strategy
- 00:49:12but uh I I think for the Israelis the
- 00:49:14only Victory is if they if you if you
- 00:49:17eliminate the possible diplomatic
- 00:49:19solution of a Palestinian State it's
- 00:49:22either uh apartheid or ethnic cleansing
- 00:49:26and I think of of Gaza primarily
- 00:49:31now it's still maybe achievable if you
- 00:49:34have a major war but um I think if you
- 00:49:37look at what Netanyahu wants in any
- 00:49:39ceasefire agreement not that necessarily
- 00:49:42is not being genuine but there always uh
- 00:49:45some kind of control over Gaza so some
- 00:49:47way of I don't know putting it under
- 00:49:49their control so I'm not sure how they
- 00:49:52would realistically achieve this and
- 00:49:54obviously escalating now with hollah I
- 00:49:56don't see any possible Pathway to
- 00:50:00Victory and but this has become a common
- 00:50:02feature the same as when we've been
- 00:50:04fighting Russia for two and a half years
- 00:50:06no one actually defined what it would
- 00:50:08mean to defeat the world's largest
- 00:50:10nuclear power uh you know at what point
- 00:50:13would NATO March through Crimea without
- 00:50:16triggering a nuclear war so I think
- 00:50:18it's across the board it's just yeah
- 00:50:21this is the key problem we never Define
- 00:50:23our victories and uh I just want to have
- 00:50:25a quick comment on what you mentioned
- 00:50:27before this pulling in NATO and the us
- 00:50:29because I think this is a key problem
- 00:50:31with the whole Alliance system in for
- 00:50:34about 8 years ago John Herz he wrote
- 00:50:36that Alliance systems replace the right
- 00:50:39to make war with the responsibility to
- 00:50:41do so and uh you know this is why
- 00:50:44ukrainians have an incentive to escalate
- 00:50:46because they can pull in NATO this is
- 00:50:47why the Israelis have an incentive to
- 00:50:49escalate because they pull in the
- 00:50:50Americans so why would you do any diplom
- 00:50:53painful diplomatic Solutions if you
- 00:50:55always have that powerful state in the
- 00:50:57back so you're willing to take these
- 00:50:58huge compromises now compromise risks
- 00:51:01sorry and this has been a problem not
- 00:51:03just with Ukraine look at the Baltic
- 00:51:04states they there's one reason why they
- 00:51:06never made any you know peace with
- 00:51:08Russia they continued this belligerent
- 00:51:10policies because they have the United
- 00:51:12States and nato in their back without
- 00:51:14this of course you would have to try to
- 00:51:17at least uh overcome some of the Soviet
- 00:51:20Legacy and find a way of living next to
- 00:51:22each other but you don't have to when
- 00:51:23you have this you know big uh yeah ful
- 00:51:26Army behind you so I think this is the
- 00:51:30we always celebrating Alliance systems
- 00:51:31for you know only protecting and
- 00:51:33defending but it's also preventing
- 00:51:36anyone from making any compromises uh so
- 00:51:38I think this has been the problem of
- 00:51:39Israel not just now but over the past
- 00:51:41decades why would it ever have to make
- 00:51:43any painful compromises with the
- 00:51:45Palestinians it doesn't have to it can
- 00:51:47always have the option of getting
- 00:51:48everything I think so um yeah again I
- 00:51:51don't think this is in their necessarily
- 00:51:53in their interest the to discourage them
- 00:51:56from making any
- 00:51:58compromises just a quick point on that
- 00:52:00Glenn is both of you know Steve Walt and
- 00:52:03I wrote this uh famous book called The
- 00:52:06Israel Lobby and US foreign policy and
- 00:52:10the argument we made in the book was we
- 00:52:12have this powerful Lobby in the United
- 00:52:15States the Israel Lobby uh that has a
- 00:52:18huge influence on American policy toward
- 00:52:20the Middle East and especially towards
- 00:52:22Israel and especially towards the
- 00:52:24Israeli Palestinian conflict and the end
- 00:52:27result is that the United States
- 00:52:29supports Israel
- 00:52:32unconditionally and in the book and in
- 00:52:34our public presentations we have always
- 00:52:37argued that the lobby is not good for
- 00:52:39the United States that the policies that
- 00:52:42it's pushing are not good for American
- 00:52:44Security but we have also argued
- 00:52:47emphatically that the policies that the
- 00:52:50lobby is pushing which is to support
- 00:52:53Israel unconditionally are not good for
- 00:52:56Israel
- 00:52:57so when you look at American policy
- 00:52:59towards Israel it is important to
- 00:53:02understand that there are many policy
- 00:53:03makers over time presidents in
- 00:53:06particular who have wanted to put
- 00:53:08significant pressure on Israel not to do
- 00:53:10foolish things that were not only not
- 00:53:13good for the United States but not good
- 00:53:15for Israel itself but those presidents
- 00:53:18could not put any pressure on Israel of
- 00:53:21any consequence in large part because of
- 00:53:23the lobby because the lobby demands that
- 00:53:26the United States support Israel
- 00:53:29unconditionally so here's a country
- 00:53:31Israel that is really in deep trouble it
- 00:53:34is in deep trouble and it is digging
- 00:53:37deeper and deeper and what is the lobby
- 00:53:39doing here in the United States and by
- 00:53:41the way there's a Lobby in Britain and
- 00:53:44lobbies all across Europe as well uh
- 00:53:47which is one of the reasons all these
- 00:53:48governments support Israel no matter
- 00:53:51what it does what all these lobbies are
- 00:53:54doing right is they help helping Israel
- 00:53:57dig that hole at a more rapid rate and
- 00:54:00get deeper and deeper into the ground
- 00:54:03this is not smart those lobbyist those
- 00:54:06so-called supporters of Israel right
- 00:54:09ought to think long and hard about
- 00:54:11what's going on here and Glenn this gets
- 00:54:13back to your point about Ukraine People
- 00:54:16Like Us are pro portrayed as being
- 00:54:19anti-ukrainian and all of these
- 00:54:22supporters of endless war in Ukraine are
- 00:54:25supposed to be the Great Defenders of
- 00:54:27Ukraine your point which I agree with
- 00:54:29and I'm sure Alexander agrees with is
- 00:54:32that this is completely backwards and
- 00:54:34all these cheerleaders for Ukraine are
- 00:54:37leading it down the Primrose path I'm
- 00:54:39making the same argument with regard to
- 00:54:42Israel right if Israel's supporters were
- 00:54:46hard-headed strategists and were forced
- 00:54:49to think clearly about the policies
- 00:54:51they're pushing they would say that it
- 00:54:54is not in Israel's interest to continue
- 00:54:58digging deeper and deeper any more than
- 00:55:00it's in Ukraine's interest but the
- 00:55:02problem is that people like us just
- 00:55:04don't have much voice in the existing
- 00:55:07system I think this is absolutely
- 00:55:10correct all my lifetime I hear about how
- 00:55:13Israel is winning except of course it
- 00:55:15never wins I mean it's it's it's always
- 00:55:18a process of winning you win every
- 00:55:21tactical battle but at the end of the at
- 00:55:23the end of it the end of the day you
- 00:55:25find yourself
- 00:55:26in a far worse situation than you would
- 00:55:29have been in if you had been prepared at
- 00:55:32some point to compromise they've had
- 00:55:34ample opportunities to do that in 67 in
- 00:55:39the various negotiations that took place
- 00:55:41in the
- 00:55:421970s at the Geneva conference I
- 00:55:44remember which has been floated for the
- 00:55:471970s after Camp David agreements but
- 00:55:50they never do it because they never
- 00:55:52really feel that they have that pressure
- 00:55:54on them that need to negotiate which is
- 00:55:57what Glenn was talking about they can
- 00:55:59always hold out for whatever maximalist
- 00:56:03objective that they have and in the end
- 00:56:06it's where where where it's brought them
- 00:56:08to is the position in which they are now
- 00:56:11where they've got an unwinable war in
- 00:56:14Gaza which they don't know how to end
- 00:56:16and they don't want to end where their
- 00:56:18economy is in a very poor State it's
- 00:56:21declining their credit rating is
- 00:56:24declining their army is exha Ed there's
- 00:56:27arguments between the Prime Minister and
- 00:56:29his generals with reports in the
- 00:56:31financial times saying that the prime
- 00:56:34minister is caus calling the generals
- 00:56:36cowards which is incredible but that's
- 00:56:39you know the financial times that's
- 00:56:40saying that and they're drifting into a
- 00:56:45conflict with Iran a very big country
- 00:56:49potentially a very powerful one again I
- 00:56:52can't understand what victory uh Victory
- 00:56:55there uh would be
- 00:56:56but nobody is making these points in
- 00:57:00that in the way that you've just made
- 00:57:02them John nobody's doing that everybody
- 00:57:05looks at this purely in very tactical
- 00:57:08terms you know can we conduct a
- 00:57:10successful air strike on Iran on as if
- 00:57:15that ultimately achieves anything all
- 00:57:18it's going to do is to make the
- 00:57:19situation worse and um I I don't know
- 00:57:23what has to happen before it changes I
- 00:57:28think in Ukraine where there is a
- 00:57:32major you know preponderance of power on
- 00:57:35the Russian side and they can at least
- 00:57:39at some point bring the war to an end on
- 00:57:41some kind of basis that works for them I
- 00:57:44think we can perhaps see a possible what
- 00:57:48we can look forward one day to a day
- 00:57:50when there won't be a war there but in
- 00:57:52the Middle East I have to say I I look
- 00:57:54upon events with dread and I think for
- 00:57:57Israel it's now an existential situation
- 00:58:00I think that they're in a more dangerous
- 00:58:03position now than they have ever been in
- 00:58:05their history all this winning where has
- 00:58:08it brought
- 00:58:09them yeah just two quick points one is
- 00:58:13that the political center of gravity in
- 00:58:15Israel Over time will move further and
- 00:58:18further to the right uh if you just look
- 00:58:20at the demographics uh and uh you see U
- 00:58:25that the more extreme groups are having
- 00:58:27large numbers of babies uh and
- 00:58:30furthermore I think with the passage of
- 00:58:31time more and more secular Israelis will
- 00:58:34leave and go to Europe or the United
- 00:58:36States uh given what's happening inside
- 00:58:39Israel so I don't think there's much
- 00:58:41hope uh that Israel will come to its
- 00:58:43senses I think the bavers and the
- 00:58:46smotes uh are the wave of the future U
- 00:58:49that's point one point two is I just
- 00:58:51wanted to talk a little bit about how
- 00:58:54Israel's military situation has changed
- 00:58:57over time as I told you uh when I was
- 00:59:00young and studying conventional Wars uh
- 00:59:03I studied the Israeli cases I mentioned
- 00:59:05the 5667 and 73 Wars I also of course
- 00:59:09studied the 48 War and the 82 invasion
- 00:59:12of Lebanon and in those days the
- 00:59:15Israelis fought Wars against other
- 00:59:18countries and the wars mainly involved
- 00:59:22engagements on the
- 00:59:24battlefield but the threat environment
- 00:59:27that Israel faces is fundamentally
- 00:59:29different today it's not a conventional
- 00:59:31war with Egypt or a conventional war
- 00:59:33with Syria like it was in the old days
- 00:59:36now the problem is they're facing these
- 00:59:39adversaries who are armed to the teeth
- 00:59:41with missiles rockets and cruise
- 00:59:44missiles and they have no way of dealing
- 00:59:47with that threat it's really quite
- 00:59:48amazing I mean Hamas is not a regular
- 00:59:52army by any means right Hezbollah
- 00:59:56Hezbollah is not a country Hezbollah is
- 00:59:58not Lebanon it's an important element of
- 01:00:01the political equation in Lebanon for
- 01:00:03sure but Hezbollah you know is a
- 01:00:06political organization embedded inside
- 01:00:09of Lebanon that has all these missiles
- 01:00:13Rockets mortars and so forth and so on
- 01:00:15and even some ground capability and it
- 01:00:19just creates all sorts of problems for
- 01:00:21Israel and now they're beginning to face
- 01:00:24problems with the houthis because the
- 01:00:25houth are getting the capability to hit
- 01:00:28Israel with missiles and with drones and
- 01:00:31this capability will only grow with time
- 01:00:34so if you look at what happened
- 01:00:36yesterday with Lebanon and Israel there
- 01:00:39was no way that Israel could win the war
- 01:00:42against Lebanon they can't invade
- 01:00:45Lebanon I mean they could invade Lebanon
- 01:00:48but it will not have a happy ending
- 01:00:49which is why they're not seriously
- 01:00:51talking about it and they can't take out
- 01:00:53all of their missiles and Rockets and
- 01:00:56that leaves them vulnerable to these
- 01:00:58missiles and Rockets and by the way the
- 01:01:00number of missiles and Rockets that
- 01:01:01Hezbollah now has will grow over time
- 01:01:05the accuracy of those missiles will grow
- 01:01:08the yield of those missiles will grow
- 01:01:11the intelligence capabilities of
- 01:01:13Hezbollah to sort of pinpoint targets
- 01:01:16that could then be programmed into these
- 01:01:18missiles and Rockets will grow and it's
- 01:01:21all the way of saying the threat from
- 01:01:22Hezbollah will grow the threat from
- 01:01:24Hamas um which has been obviously
- 01:01:28severely hurt will grow back and the
- 01:01:31houthis will come online the Iranians
- 01:01:34are not going anywhere whether they bomb
- 01:01:37them or not so the Israelis are in this
- 01:01:40really dangerous threat environment that
- 01:01:42is complete it's completely different I
- 01:01:44I think it's fair to say it's completely
- 01:01:46different than the threat environment
- 01:01:48that they faced in the early years and
- 01:01:51which they could quite easily handle
- 01:01:55they they did not have much trouble as
- 01:01:57you all know winning the 56 67 and even
- 01:02:00the 73 War where they initially got
- 01:02:02caught with their pants down right they
- 01:02:05had a formidable conventional military
- 01:02:07force that was good at winning those
- 01:02:09Wars but that threat environment is
- 01:02:11changed and they have no way of winning
- 01:02:14these
- 01:02:16wars last I guess a question for me
- 01:02:19though is in terms of it looks like
- 01:02:21these two big Wars uh can merge to some
- 01:02:24extent because aik concern for me in
- 01:02:26terms of uh the West joining in or
- 01:02:30coming to the aid of Israel and larger
- 01:02:32Regional War it's something that
- 01:02:34includes the huis Hezbollah or
- 01:02:37Palestinians or against Iran uh is that
- 01:02:41uh the Russians and Chinese they look
- 01:02:44like very likely at least the CH the
- 01:02:46Russians would to some extent come to
- 01:02:49the aid uh simply because we kind of
- 01:02:52changed the rules of proxy wars as we
- 01:02:54now you know
- 01:02:56assisting with the invasion of Russian
- 01:02:58territory something that was Unthinkable
- 01:03:00before now obviously one of the ways
- 01:03:02that Russians are seeking to retaliate
- 01:03:04without triggering uh nuclear exchange
- 01:03:06or third world war is by by yes we've
- 01:03:10talked about supplying more weapons to
- 01:03:12anyone who opposed the West now it seems
- 01:03:15to me if the West wants to get involved
- 01:03:16in a wider Regional war in the Middle
- 01:03:18East Russia suddenly has a lot of
- 01:03:20targets to pick in terms of supplying
- 01:03:22intelligence weapons uh any War plan or
- 01:03:26any of the things we're engaged in in
- 01:03:28the war against Russia so it it seems
- 01:03:33dangerous for us at this time to start a
- 01:03:35huge Regional War especially as after we
- 01:03:37exhausted so much of our own Weaponry to
- 01:03:41well fight Russia so uh what do you two
- 01:03:45see as or predict in terms of uh what
- 01:03:49what would happen if we would actually
- 01:03:51come to the aid of Israel in a wider
- 01:03:54Regional War would
- 01:03:56Russians and the Chinese come in to
- 01:03:59assist yeah totis or the Iranians any of
- 01:04:03the other
- 01:04:05actors I'd defer to you
- 01:04:08Alexander well I I I think I think that
- 01:04:11there is going to be a major difference
- 01:04:13from what we saw before because of
- 01:04:14course when the West got to some extent
- 01:04:18bogged down in Iraq the Russians kept
- 01:04:22away they wanted good relations with the
- 01:04:23West at that time they were not in a
- 01:04:26strong position to intervene they didn't
- 01:04:29have many Regional friends now
- 01:04:31everything has changed they had the
- 01:04:33incentive they have the means and they
- 01:04:35have the friends and um I think that
- 01:04:39from their point of view they probably
- 01:04:42would want to intervene but they would
- 01:04:44want to intervene in a particular way I
- 01:04:46think they would not want an you know
- 01:04:49uncontrolled escalation in the Middle
- 01:04:50East which could backfire on themselves
- 01:04:54I think what the Russians would probably
- 01:04:57want and what they would try to do in
- 01:05:00the Middle East is gain leverage over us
- 01:05:03and I think that's probably the way they
- 01:05:06would think just as they gained leverage
- 01:05:08over the United States by supplying arms
- 01:05:11to North Vietnam in the 1960s and were
- 01:05:14able to trade that to get concessions in
- 01:05:17the dayon process and I think with the
- 01:05:20Chinese it's the same and strangely
- 01:05:22enough getting the Chinese and the
- 01:05:24Russians involved in the mid least might
- 01:05:27actually be a way of creating some kind
- 01:05:30of mechanism to bring this process under
- 01:05:34some kind of control but that's not
- 01:05:38going to happen happen very quickly or
- 01:05:41very easily um I suspect Mr nanaku will
- 01:05:45get his war and there'll be a massive
- 01:05:47Smash and it'll only be then that we'll
- 01:05:50see everybody Russians Chinese Americans
- 01:05:53all the others working together to pick
- 01:05:56up the
- 01:05:57pieces I agree with that I would just
- 01:06:00note that there is evidence that the
- 01:06:02Russians are already aiding the Iranians
- 01:06:05that they've been sending them air
- 01:06:07defense systems electronic jamming
- 01:06:10capabilities and so forth and so on uh
- 01:06:13to in effect help them uh Stave off an
- 01:06:17attack from the
- 01:06:18Israelis uh so the the link is there uh
- 01:06:23my guess is if a conflict ation broke
- 01:06:26out a shooting match broke out between
- 01:06:29the Iranians on one side and the
- 01:06:31Israelis and the Americans and the
- 01:06:32Europeans on the other side uh the
- 01:06:34Russians would go to Great Lengths not
- 01:06:36to get directly involved in the fighting
- 01:06:40but to do everything possible to help
- 01:06:42the Iranians and complicate things uh
- 01:06:46for uh the United States uh I think you
- 01:06:50have a really interesting situation this
- 01:06:51comment Builds on what we were talking
- 01:06:53about before where the Americans the
- 01:06:56Iranians and I think the Russians don't
- 01:06:58want a big war in the Middle East it's
- 01:07:01the Israelis who really want a big war
- 01:07:03in the Middle East and uh because the
- 01:07:07United States can't put any meaningful
- 01:07:09pressure on Israel to in effect cool its
- 01:07:12Jets and stop this nonsense because of
- 01:07:15the Israel Lobby uh the Israelis might
- 01:07:18very well take us all down this road
- 01:07:21that we don't want to go down you want
- 01:07:24to you want to remember that April 1st
- 01:07:26it was the Israelis who killed um a
- 01:07:30number of people in the uh Iranian
- 01:07:33Embassy in Damascus and precipitated the
- 01:07:37April 14th attack by Iran against Israel
- 01:07:40and then the Israeli attack against Iran
- 01:07:42on April 19th and then it was again the
- 01:07:45Israelis who on July 31st killed han han
- 01:07:50in uh in tran and have precipitated
- 01:07:56uh what we think is going to be uh a
- 01:07:59major Iranian attack on Israel so you
- 01:08:01can see the Israelis are doing
- 01:08:03everything they can in terms of concrete
- 01:08:05actions to drag Us in drag the Iranians
- 01:08:08in and I think they wouldn't mind if the
- 01:08:10Russians got involved either uh but all
- 01:08:13three of these other players other than
- 01:08:16the Israelis are interested in avoiding
- 01:08:19a big war and it'll be interesting to
- 01:08:22see just how successful the Israelis are
- 01:08:25at us all
- 01:08:26in well that brings me back to my
- 01:08:29earlier point that if we really wanted
- 01:08:31to prevent or avoid Iran striking uh
- 01:08:35retaliating against Israel what we
- 01:08:37really should be doing is reach out to
- 01:08:40the Iranians and you know say okay we're
- 01:08:42going to put restraints on the Israelis
- 01:08:44if you do the same but instead we see
- 01:08:47we're sending letters to the Iranians
- 01:08:49where we blaming them for everything uh
- 01:08:51we're not even condemning the Israeli
- 01:08:53attack and and suggesting that
- 01:08:55everything in the region is their for
- 01:08:57their fault for supporting terrorism
- 01:08:58without any of the context it just we're
- 01:09:01signaling to the Iranians you have no
- 01:09:03diplomatic partner we're not going to
- 01:09:05constrain them uh so effectively leaving
- 01:09:09the use of force as the only one again I
- 01:09:11see the parallel to Russia in 2021 we
- 01:09:14kept telling the Russians you're not
- 01:09:15going to we're going to continue to
- 01:09:17build up in Ukraine our military force
- 01:09:19we're not going to implement Minsk we're
- 01:09:21not going to give any security
- 01:09:22guarantees anything you need to feel
- 01:09:24secure we're just continue to mount more
- 01:09:26and more weapons which could will
- 01:09:28probably be used against you to take
- 01:09:30crimeia be Force if you don't like it
- 01:09:33you're going to have to use military
- 01:09:34force this is effectively the message
- 01:09:36we're sending them and um yeah I see the
- 01:09:39same with Iran now we're not we're not
- 01:09:41giving them anything and it's it's and
- 01:09:45this is always interpreted as being you
- 01:09:46know tough on them or this is how we're
- 01:09:48deterring them but theer have to be
- 01:09:51balanced with something else uh by
- 01:09:54actually accommodating some of their
- 01:09:55concerns and they do have concerns but
- 01:09:58again I I I see what they want to do but
- 01:10:01they're doing exactly the opposite
- 01:10:04so I think one just very quickly Glenn
- 01:10:07and Alexander one problem uh here uh is
- 01:10:11that the irano phobia and the
- 01:10:15russophobia in the west is so off the
- 01:10:19charts that it leads naturally to
- 01:10:22dividing the world up into two groups
- 01:10:25bad guys good guys and if you divide the
- 01:10:30world up into bad guys and good guys and
- 01:10:32that's how you think about the world
- 01:10:34it's very hard to be a first class
- 01:10:36strategist right because you instead are
- 01:10:39thinking about the world in terms of
- 01:10:41right and wrong good and bad and that's
- 01:10:45not what you want to do you want to pay
- 01:10:46really serious attention to what your
- 01:10:49adversaries legitimate interests are and
- 01:10:53take them into account when you fashion
- 01:10:55a policy but we are incapable of doing
- 01:10:59it I think is actually more difficult to
- 01:11:02do with regard to the Russians because
- 01:11:04the Russian Russia phobia and the Putin
- 01:11:07phobia is so potent it's also true with
- 01:11:11regard to the Iranians uh it's just
- 01:11:14amazing the extent to which the Iranians
- 01:11:16are portrayed as the devil incarnate
- 01:11:19which makes it impossible for us to have
- 01:11:21any form of meaningful relations with
- 01:11:23Iran and do anything thing to put uh uh
- 01:11:28these problems that we have to bed I
- 01:11:31completely agree I I I think was it
- 01:11:34tally wrong who once said you know the
- 01:11:35worst the worst thing a diplomat can
- 01:11:38fall into is an excessive Zeal I think
- 01:11:41we have far far too much Zeal uh um I
- 01:11:44think this is what we have and that's
- 01:11:46the problem it's clouding our judgment
- 01:11:48and it's making real diplomacy
- 01:11:50impossible because um in this kind of
- 01:11:52atmosphere there very very heavy
- 01:11:54atmosphere
- 01:11:55um you can't negotiate with the devil
- 01:11:58incarnate that's impossible it's
- 01:12:00appeasement and that's the word that's
- 01:12:02always brought out appeasement is not a
- 01:12:06specific event that took place in the
- 01:12:081930s in Europe it's something that
- 01:12:11applies all the time everywhere in every
- 01:12:13place but especially when the Russians
- 01:12:16and the Iranians are
- 01:12:17concerned we've discussed this before I
- 01:12:20have to say I think there has to be a
- 01:12:22major smash a major cist
- 01:12:25failure um
- 01:12:28before I think we come to our senses
- 01:12:31because I can't see any other way it's
- 01:12:33going to
- 01:12:34happen anyway that's me I'm sad to say I
- 01:12:37think you're
- 01:12:39right a good example I think is the
- 01:12:41incoming um EU foreign policy Chief
- 01:12:44kalas she was making the point that you
- 01:12:46know Putin is a war criminal and we
- 01:12:48cannot them diplomacy with war criminals
- 01:12:51as we're legitimizing it so we cannot
- 01:12:53talk to them and uh also suggesting that
- 01:12:56you know peace also or victory has to be
- 01:12:58breaking up Russia in smaller countries
- 01:13:00because then there will be better so
- 01:13:02this is uh yeah the insane path we're
- 01:13:05currently on and um yeah criticizing it
- 01:13:08of course would mean that you're picking
- 01:13:10the wrong side you know going with evil
- 01:13:11instead of good so it's a it's a very
- 01:13:14childish way of looking at International
- 01:13:16Affairs um anyways any final words
- 01:13:19before we wrap this
- 01:13:21up well I think we will I think we will
- 01:13:24see it I I I'm I'm I'm sure we're going
- 01:13:26to see a big Smash in the Middle East I
- 01:13:29think the my own view about Ukraine and
- 01:13:32I think this is follows what everyone
- 01:13:34else else has been saying is we've
- 01:13:36actually now passed the point of no
- 01:13:39return in fact I think we could be
- 01:13:42fairly soon in an end game situation
- 01:13:45here and you know that an end of the war
- 01:13:48might not actually be that far off
- 01:13:50anymore the end game of course will be
- 01:13:52very complicated and very difficult will
- 01:13:55present all kinds of other problems but
- 01:13:57I think that you know the Middle East
- 01:14:02it's different and that might be the war
- 01:14:04that we're talking about more than
- 01:14:05Ukraine next year just
- 01:14:07saying I
- 01:14:09agree I I agree too that's sort of my
- 01:14:12final word uh just to agree with
- 01:14:17Alexander yes well uh hopefully we're
- 01:14:21all wrong and um yeah this will and uh
- 01:14:25both Wars quite peaceful soon but yeah I
- 01:14:28doubt it anyways Professor mer armer
- 01:14:30Alexander thank you so much I appreciate
- 01:14:33it every time my pleasure Glenn great to
- 01:14:36be with you great to be be with you both
- 01:14:39of you um on this program
- 01:14:45[Music]
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