Why Hasn't Open Source Won? - Panel With @rossmanngroup, @MollyRocket, Nick Merrill, and Eron Wolf

00:38:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3eycjekIAk

摘要

TLDRThe panel discussion, led by Ian Mason and featuring notable figures like Nicholas Merrill, explored the challenges and status of the open source movement. Key points included the movement's struggle to fully displace big tech, issues with financial sustainability, and the benefits of open source software. The discussion highlighted the need for better financial models and debated the meaning of 'open source' versus 'source-available' software. Additionally, the panel examined case studies like Mozilla and Firefox, contemplating how the open source movement can prevent 'capture' by large tech corporations and maintain its integrity and sustainability. Futo's mission in promoting open source solutions aimed at user privacy was also a focal point.

心得

  • 🤔 Open source struggles to fully displace big tech.
  • 💡 Better financial models are needed for sustainability.
  • 🔍 Distinction between 'open source' and 'source-available'.
  • 📉 Challenges in Mozilla's model despite Google funding.
  • 🔓 Linux as a success story within open source.
  • 💼 Different business models can support open source projects.
  • 🎯 Futo focuses on privacy and minimal corporate influence.
  • 🔗 Importance of open source community contributions.
  • 🛠 Potential capture of open source by financial influences.
  • 📈 Need for balance between openness and commercial viability.

时间轴

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Ian Mason, Director of Operations at Futo, introduces a panel discussion including Nicholas Merrill from the CX Institute. They explore whether the open-source movement, particularly its efforts to challenge big tech, has been successful. Merrill argues that open source hasn't conclusively "won" against big tech, but it remains influential, especially in AI, allowing for innovation that big tech would not support. However, financial models remain a challenge, with big tech wielding significant political influence.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    The panel discusses the meaning of "open source," with differing interpretations and views on financial models supporting open-source projects. There is a suggested need for transparency in how software operates to ensure user freedom, though what defines open source can vary. Aaron explores whether freedom-focused software, possibly labeled as "futoi" or "Futo software," could better describe their goals, emphasizing no hidden agendas in software operations.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Louis Rossmann reflects on open source's role in numerous projects and platforms, observing trust as a key benefit when software is truly open and free. Yet, he notes limitations exist within niche applications that fail to attract significant user bases or funding. Nick Merrill points out the importance of incentivizing development through commercial models or tackling sustainability challenges. A thorough balance must be achieved between community and financial stability.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    As the discussion evolves, the panelists dive into the limitations of open-source models, specifically in lacking financial benefits for contributors compared to commercial entities exploiting open technologies. They consider whether changing licensing models might ensure fair compensation for contributors while maintaining openness, possibly through royalties or partnership models, without undermining the spirit of open-source contributions.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Addressing open-source project sustainability, especially concerning financial compensation for contributors and developers, is critical. Linux emerges as a notable exception, where its model has encouraged widespread adoption and contribution. However, fairness in compensation remains an ongoing challenge. The conversation underscores concerns surrounding economic models to support open-source developments while safeguarding openness and accessibility.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    The topic returns to financial dynamics and whether open source's reliance on contributions without suitable compensation structures may still harm developers. They deliberate on potential models, like revenue-sharing or usage-fee approaches, to preserve innovation while providing reasonable rewards for contributors. This ongoing pursuit of fair economics could redefine sustainable open-source progress.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:38:49

    The panel concludes with reflections on open-source's relationship with big tech, discussing potential capture by large corporations through financial influences or dependency. They advocate for developing new supportive models that strive for autonomy and financial independence for open-source projects, suggesting that Futo aims to contribute to this landscape by promoting user-funded, transparent software development.

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常见问题

  • Who is Nicholas Merrill?

    Nicholas Merrill is the founder of the CX Institute and known for being the first person to refuse a national security letter under the Patriot Act.

  • What was the main topic of the panel discussion?

    The main topic was the current state and challenges of the open source movement, including its failure to completely unseat big tech and how financial models impact its sustainability.

  • What is Futo?

    Futo is a company focused on privacy and open source solutions, aiming to create a modern Android open source project phone with minimal Google involvement.

  • What are the challenges faced by the open source movement?

    Challenges include creating sustainable financial models, preventing 'capture' by big tech companies, and fostering broad community support and contributions.

  • What is the distinction between open source and source-available software according to the panel?

    Open source implies publicly available source code with permissions for modification and redistribution under specific licenses, whereas source-available software may allow access to source code without such permissions.

  • How does the panel view the success of Linux?

    Linux is viewed as a success story within the open source movement, being widely used across government, corporate, and personal systems, demonstrating the potential of open source when widely supported.

  • What is Mozilla's business model as discussed in the panel?

    Mozilla's business model involves being funded largely by Google and others, despite challenges in maintaining a large market share for Firefox.

  • What does Futo aim to do with open source?

    Futo aims to develop software that prioritizes user privacy and is free from unwanted corporate influence, looking to innovate within their defined open source principles.

  • How can open source projects become more sustainable?

    Projects can explore various business models, such as Red Hat's support services or models allowing for commercial use under certain conditions, to ensure financial and developmental sustainability.

  • What does the panel suggest about financial capture in open source?

    Financial capture by big tech companies can occur when these companies fund open source projects, potentially influencing their direction and sustainability.

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  • 00:00:00
    sticking with us and sorry for the delay
  • 00:00:02
    uh for those of you who were not over in
  • 00:00:03
    the second track or who don't know me
  • 00:00:04
    from elsewhere I'm Ian Mason I'm
  • 00:00:06
    director of operations at Futo thanks
  • 00:00:08
    again for everybody coming here we're
  • 00:00:09
    going to close with our first I think
  • 00:00:11
    our first ever panel
  • 00:00:14
    um it's uh everybody here except for
  • 00:00:17
    Nick I believe you've all been
  • 00:00:18
    introduced to so allow me to introduce
  • 00:00:20
    uh Nicholas Merill a giant in this space
  • 00:00:23
    founder of the CX Institute in
  • 00:00:26
    1995 uh the first man to refuse a
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    national security letter under the
  • 00:00:30
    Patriot Act which for those of you
  • 00:00:32
    Zoomers who are too young to remember
  • 00:00:33
    was the civil liberties issue of its day
  • 00:00:36
    we're proud sponsors at Futo of the CX
  • 00:00:38
    Institute and uh if you are looking to
  • 00:00:40
    do a modern phone a modern Android open
  • 00:00:43
    source project phone without go with as
  • 00:00:45
    little of Google's involvement as you
  • 00:00:47
    can CX is a great option you should
  • 00:00:48
    definitely check out uh like I say
  • 00:00:50
    everybody else I think you've been
  • 00:00:51
    introduced to so I will introduce the
  • 00:00:53
    topic which is why hasn't FAL w why
  • 00:00:56
    hasn't the open source movement uh which
  • 00:00:59
    it seems part of its prog of its uh of
  • 00:01:01
    its purpose to sort of unseat things
  • 00:01:03
    like big Tech that exist today so I
  • 00:01:06
    realized that the title begs the
  • 00:01:07
    question so we'll Rectify that sin and
  • 00:01:09
    I'll I'll pass the first question to
  • 00:01:10
    Nick who I think has been around the
  • 00:01:12
    open source scene longer than anybody
  • 00:01:13
    else here so has FAL
  • 00:01:16
    one uh FAL has not
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    won uh but I feel like it's creating
  • 00:01:22
    maybe a false dichotomy that it's not
  • 00:01:25
    there's never going to be like a moment
  • 00:01:26
    where like we've won they've lost it's
  • 00:01:28
    over uh
  • 00:01:30
    someone once said that any fight worth
  • 00:01:32
    fighting never stays one so you're going
  • 00:01:35
    to end up refighting the same fights
  • 00:01:37
    every 20 years uh and I do think that
  • 00:01:40
    there's some really amazing stuff going
  • 00:01:42
    on now with the open source movement in
  • 00:01:45
    AI for instance uh you can do all kinds
  • 00:01:48
    of stuff at home with a GPU uh using AI
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    models that are all open source using
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    all open source software that you can
  • 00:01:56
    never do with big Tech that big Tech
  • 00:01:58
    would never let you do um you know
  • 00:02:02
    Android we we make our own version of
  • 00:02:04
    Android which is all focused on privacy
  • 00:02:06
    we can do that because Android open
  • 00:02:08
    source project is open it's based on the
  • 00:02:10
    Linux
  • 00:02:11
    kernel uh if you look at Mac OS
  • 00:02:14
    underneath it it's Darwin it's an open
  • 00:02:17
    kernel it's based on BSD userland it's
  • 00:02:20
    you know there's a lot of uh open source
  • 00:02:23
    is is ubiquitous throughout big Tech
  • 00:02:25
    they depend on it they contribute to it
  • 00:02:28
    so I feel like it's a great area I I
  • 00:02:30
    don't I think that uh one of the big
  • 00:02:34
    things that maybe the free software
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    movement has to do though is figure out
  • 00:02:37
    better Financial
  • 00:02:39
    models uh because ultimately I'm I'm
  • 00:02:41
    very cynical at this point and I kind of
  • 00:02:43
    feel like to really win big political
  • 00:02:46
    battles you need to out bribe Congress
  • 00:02:49
    essentially like if the if the B if if
  • 00:02:51
    the B if big Tech is going to pay
  • 00:02:52
    Congress a billion we might have to pay
  • 00:02:54
    them two billion uh but that's a super
  • 00:02:57
    cynical way of looking at it but it's
  • 00:02:58
    also I truly believe it I'm not I'm not
  • 00:03:00
    playing um so that's that's I think
  • 00:03:03
    something we should do and that's kind
  • 00:03:04
    of uh why I'm really happy to see uh a
  • 00:03:07
    lot of people that I talk to here talk
  • 00:03:08
    about their business models that they're
  • 00:03:10
    working on with free software uh yeah if
  • 00:03:14
    anybody else wants to jump in on any
  • 00:03:15
    question definitely go for it but I
  • 00:03:17
    think we we can move on so what is FAL
  • 00:03:20
    to begin with I know this is something
  • 00:03:22
    that uh has occupied an inordinate
  • 00:03:24
    amount of time in internal discussions
  • 00:03:26
    at fudo what what does open source mean
  • 00:03:28
    you know there there are people who have
  • 00:03:29
    I understand the the open source uh in
  • 00:03:32
    initiative you know tried to trademark
  • 00:03:34
    the term at some point and sort of
  • 00:03:36
    cement legally their own definition of
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    it and that's been unsuccessful um what
  • 00:03:41
    does open source mean to you and Erin
  • 00:03:43
    I'm going to start with you but I hope
  • 00:03:43
    everybody jumps in what does it mean to
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    you and um uh how might it be different
  • 00:03:49
    from from other definitions that are out
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    there I
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    mean you know I I'm kind of coming out
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    at this from an Outsiders um point of
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    view at least before like a few years
  • 00:04:00
    ago you know when we started Yahoo we
  • 00:04:02
    would just kind of I mean we were like
  • 00:04:03
    wow we're using so much open source
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    software this is like these guys are
  • 00:04:06
    really good that we're using FreeBSD for
  • 00:04:08
    servers and you know it was um you know
  • 00:04:12
    we were kind of like feeling guilty I
  • 00:04:14
    would say sometimes because there were
  • 00:04:16
    lots of like you know the first 10
  • 00:04:18
    engineers at Yahoo made a lot more money
  • 00:04:20
    than anyone working on
  • 00:04:21
    FreeBSD um
  • 00:04:24
    so you know as far as you know I just
  • 00:04:27
    kind of ignored the issue until recently
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    um but kind of looking at how you know
  • 00:04:31
    the problems Futo is trying to solve
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    like I I you know it's obvious to me
  • 00:04:36
    that you know we have to know what our
  • 00:04:38
    computer if we are going to own our
  • 00:04:39
    computers we have to know what they're
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    doing so that means we have to there
  • 00:04:42
    can't be any ausc of what the software
  • 00:04:45
    is doing like the programmer can't do
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    things to make it harder for us to know
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    what our computers are doing so that's
  • 00:04:51
    basically it I thought this was called
  • 00:04:52
    open source I've been told by other
  • 00:04:54
    people that this is not open source this
  • 00:04:56
    is like maybe Source available or
  • 00:04:58
    something but if I go and I talk to you
  • 00:05:00
    know a random person on the street which
  • 00:05:02
    you know Futo wants to build software
  • 00:05:04
    that has you know hundreds of millions
  • 00:05:06
    of users you know less than 1% of those
  • 00:05:11
    users they you know some of them will
  • 00:05:13
    know what open source means none of them
  • 00:05:14
    will have even heard this like Source
  • 00:05:16
    available uh thing so I've just been
  • 00:05:19
    kind of Open Source and I've been
  • 00:05:20
    upsetting some people I guess because of
  • 00:05:22
    this but um you know maybe to me it
  • 00:05:25
    doesn't really matter that much like you
  • 00:05:27
    know maybe we'll just call it futoi
  • 00:05:28
    software Futo software is or is software
  • 00:05:32
    that you know you can run and you can
  • 00:05:34
    rest assured there's no hidden agenda
  • 00:05:36
    you know we don't want there to be a
  • 00:05:37
    hidden agenda when you're running
  • 00:05:38
    software that's it's that
  • 00:05:41
    simple so I'll uh I think it's a good
  • 00:05:44
    followup to that and anybody can JP in
  • 00:05:46
    but Erin if nobody nobody else does uh
  • 00:05:48
    can you effectively separate the
  • 00:05:50
    different parts of what's come to be
  • 00:05:51
    accepted as as free and open source
  • 00:05:53
    software can you separate the Four
  • 00:05:55
    Freedoms can you separate the OSI
  • 00:05:57
    definition which you know begins with
  • 00:05:58
    open source not just not just Source you
  • 00:06:01
    can see I'm paraphrasing um the
  • 00:06:03
    community ownership model uh Community
  • 00:06:05
    contribution can these things be
  • 00:06:06
    separated out without fatally um fatally
  • 00:06:10
    injuring the the project at hand from a
  • 00:06:13
    from a false
  • 00:06:15
    perspective uh so I can speak from
  • 00:06:17
    experience there I worked for many years
  • 00:06:19
    on game technology that followed uh
  • 00:06:22
    almost exactly that model you license
  • 00:06:24
    the technology from the company you get
  • 00:06:28
    both pre-compiled binary if you just
  • 00:06:30
    don't want to you know deal with it or
  • 00:06:33
    you get the full source code so that you
  • 00:06:35
    can compile it yourself or debug it
  • 00:06:36
    yourself or do anything you want and the
  • 00:06:38
    license regime is just such that it's
  • 00:06:40
    like okay anyone can purchase that and
  • 00:06:43
    they get the source but you're not
  • 00:06:44
    allowed to just like freely post it and
  • 00:06:45
    redistribute it or sell it as your own
  • 00:06:47
    or any of those sorts of things and that
  • 00:06:49
    worked fantastically it was the entire
  • 00:06:51
    Foundation of a company that company was
  • 00:06:53
    worth a lot of money um and it employed
  • 00:06:57
    people right so it that model definitely
  • 00:07:00
    works you can at least extract uh the I
  • 00:07:03
    guess I would say to my mind the most
  • 00:07:05
    important part of Open Source which is
  • 00:07:07
    that a customer knows that they're not
  • 00:07:11
    just going to be left with nothing if
  • 00:07:12
    you fold or sell or change your software
  • 00:07:15
    in some horrible way they still have
  • 00:07:17
    this existing license to use this piece
  • 00:07:19
    of software and modify that source as
  • 00:07:21
    they need to to keep doing what they're
  • 00:07:22
    doing so I think at least that part we
  • 00:07:25
    have plenty of evidence that it can be
  • 00:07:27
    extracted pretty cleanly uh I was going
  • 00:07:30
    to say like there's there's a bunch of
  • 00:07:31
    different models that can work and
  • 00:07:33
    that's definitely one U but I was going
  • 00:07:36
    to say like the Linux model uh all GPL
  • 00:07:39
    and completely free uh I I'm having a
  • 00:07:43
    hard time thinking of any free software
  • 00:07:45
    project that's been less more successful
  • 00:07:48
    than
  • 00:07:49
    Linux uh so many governments around the
  • 00:07:52
    world are using it so many corporations
  • 00:07:54
    are using it so many
  • 00:07:56
    devices uh and and it's under the GPL
  • 00:08:00
    license so it's like it proves to me I
  • 00:08:02
    think that you can be under such a
  • 00:08:05
    permissive license and be like the most
  • 00:08:07
    successful thing in the world um but
  • 00:08:11
    yeah I I I do think that there's also
  • 00:08:13
    room for like 100 million other
  • 00:08:15
    variations and and
  • 00:08:17
    licenses okay um I'll move on to a
  • 00:08:20
    question for Lewis I know you through
  • 00:08:22
    your YouTube channel and then even your
  • 00:08:23
    work with fudo then have interacted with
  • 00:08:26
    hundred open source projects 100
  • 00:08:28
    software projects many of which adhere
  • 00:08:30
    strictly to um false Orthodoxy um in
  • 00:08:34
    those projects have have you seen have
  • 00:08:36
    you seen a an overarching theme of what
  • 00:08:38
    projects gain by by getting that that
  • 00:08:41
    seal of approval getting that um that
  • 00:08:43
    blue ribbon as a as a real real false
  • 00:08:45
    project with all the things we've
  • 00:08:46
    discussed Four Freedoms
  • 00:08:48
    OSI community community contribution if
  • 00:08:51
    not ownership yeah I guess it's just the
  • 00:08:53
    trust of the people that are using the
  • 00:08:54
    software you know I don't even
  • 00:08:56
    necessarily see it as let's say open
  • 00:08:57
    sources necessarily failed I guess
  • 00:08:59
    depends on specifically how you're
  • 00:09:00
    looking at it like you know almost every
  • 00:09:02
    website on the Internet is using Apache
  • 00:09:03
    for hosting for a good 10 years um every
  • 00:09:05
    website I clicked on was using Wordpress
  • 00:09:08
    for like a while before everybody got
  • 00:09:10
    obsessed with Amazon and even now almost
  • 00:09:11
    every single website that's like a
  • 00:09:13
    medium-sized business not using Amazon
  • 00:09:15
    is usually using some sort of Magento
  • 00:09:17
    Community Edition usually without the
  • 00:09:19
    last six years of security patches but
  • 00:09:20
    that's own own issue you know you have
  • 00:09:23
    including B God forbid but you know you
  • 00:09:25
    have a like you know op SSL almost
  • 00:09:28
    everybody that's watching a pirated
  • 00:09:29
    movie is using VLC there are all these
  • 00:09:30
    little areas where open source is doing
  • 00:09:31
    well it's mostly in the these Niche
  • 00:09:33
    pieces of software where it sucks like
  • 00:09:35
    you know if I want to edit video and I
  • 00:09:37
    want to use Kad and live I mean like in
  • 00:09:39
    2024 I can't use audio plugins it's just
  • 00:09:42
    there's so many in all these little
  • 00:09:44
    niche areas of software like that's
  • 00:09:45
    where the open source stuff starts to be
  • 00:09:48
    stuff that doesn't have a lot of users
  • 00:09:49
    or is bad and I remember you know like
  • 00:09:51
    they saw like that that applied for a
  • 00:09:53
    grand I look up the nonprofit and I see
  • 00:09:55
    KDE was something like 150 or2 200,000 a
  • 00:09:58
    year and it say problem because I don't
  • 00:10:00
    want to pay for Kaden live when I can't
  • 00:10:02
    do stuff in it that other video editors
  • 00:10:04
    were doing in 2002 like just put an
  • 00:10:06
    audio plugin on a track uh but
  • 00:10:08
    simultaneously they need somebody to pay
  • 00:10:10
    to pay somebody to develop that
  • 00:10:11
    functionality but so it's like this
  • 00:10:13
    problem of the like you know tragedy of
  • 00:10:15
    the commons of the prisoners dilemma of
  • 00:10:16
    like I'm not paying for that until it
  • 00:10:18
    has this they need the money in order to
  • 00:10:20
    get it and it just kind of turns into
  • 00:10:21
    this circular problem with all these
  • 00:10:23
    pieces of software that have all this
  • 00:10:25
    potential but they're like missing the
  • 00:10:27
    last 15 to 25% that would actually make
  • 00:10:29
    it wor worth it for me to
  • 00:10:31
    pay I don't know how you get that in the
  • 00:10:33
    niche pieces of software the same way
  • 00:10:35
    that you get it with you know Apache
  • 00:10:36
    Maria DB Magento Community
  • 00:10:41
    Edition it's true you hear you hear
  • 00:10:43
    about so many like low-level Unix tools
  • 00:10:45
    that are like maintained by one person
  • 00:10:48
    and that person's never really been
  • 00:10:49
    supported by anyone and never really
  • 00:10:51
    gotten the support they needed and
  • 00:10:53
    literally the whole internet depends on
  • 00:10:54
    this tool working um so that solve
  • 00:10:58
    figuring out how to solve that and how
  • 00:11:00
    to somehow monetize these projects or
  • 00:11:03
    somehow encourage uh entities
  • 00:11:07
    Enterprises whoever's you know
  • 00:11:09
    benefiting from this software from to
  • 00:11:11
    support them is really going to be key I
  • 00:11:13
    think um but yeah I I I just heard that
  • 00:11:16
    too many times to count and it's really
  • 00:11:18
    kind of terrifying sometimes uh you made
  • 00:11:20
    me think about it with OP
  • 00:11:22
    SSL um FFM like I think YouTube has
  • 00:11:26
    gotten more value out of FFM Peg than
  • 00:11:28
    FFM Peg has gotten of
  • 00:11:30
    Google just a slight
  • 00:11:33
    bit so uh Casey I'll go back to you for
  • 00:11:36
    the uh the flip side of the same
  • 00:11:37
    question then in your experience have
  • 00:11:39
    you seen projects have you seen projects
  • 00:11:41
    suffer and how um when they have bent
  • 00:11:46
    over backwards to do the checklist to
  • 00:11:48
    get to get everything with open source
  • 00:11:50
    right get totally right with with the
  • 00:11:51
    community so to speak um especially in
  • 00:11:54
    projects that maybe have a potential to
  • 00:11:57
    be futy as it were well well I guess I
  • 00:11:59
    would say that I'm not sure that's the
  • 00:12:01
    most interesting lens to look at what
  • 00:12:02
    happens when you open- Source software
  • 00:12:05
    because in general I think as the you
  • 00:12:08
    know previous comments have already
  • 00:12:09
    illuminated the real problem with open
  • 00:12:11
    source is not so much that there's you
  • 00:12:14
    know maybe too much effort or too much
  • 00:12:16
    you know to too many problems that will
  • 00:12:19
    happen if you open source your your
  • 00:12:21
    program the real problem to me is more
  • 00:12:23
    that you are essentially forfeiting an
  • 00:12:26
    incredible amount of important you know
  • 00:12:29
    power and control if you will that is
  • 00:12:32
    actually crucial to shaping how the
  • 00:12:33
    world works and just to give a very
  • 00:12:35
    simple example Linux as you just said
  • 00:12:38
    you know how much say did uh lonus
  • 00:12:41
    Torvalds have in whether or not par
  • 00:12:43
    parlor got kicked off of Amazon web
  • 00:12:45
    servers uh Services even though there's
  • 00:12:48
    no way Amazon exists without Linux like
  • 00:12:51
    that never would happen right the answer
  • 00:12:52
    is of course he had no say in it he
  • 00:12:54
    probably was never consulted probably
  • 00:12:55
    didn't even know it happened right um
  • 00:12:59
    and so what happens is when you decide
  • 00:13:01
    that you're going to give something away
  • 00:13:02
    for free in some version like that so
  • 00:13:06
    that other people can build things on it
  • 00:13:08
    what seems to happen is they do build
  • 00:13:09
    things on it they take all the power and
  • 00:13:12
    control for themselves and even though
  • 00:13:14
    your contribution by percentage may be
  • 00:13:17
    significantly higher than theirs
  • 00:13:19
    building an operating system versus
  • 00:13:22
    building Amazon web services right
  • 00:13:25
    um at least on the software side it's
  • 00:13:28
    just
  • 00:13:29
    it ends up with a bunch of people
  • 00:13:31
    sitting in a room like we are now
  • 00:13:32
    talking about how you start to take back
  • 00:13:34
    ownership of your computers well all of
  • 00:13:37
    the ownership would have already been
  • 00:13:38
    ours if the programmers had asserted
  • 00:13:41
    that power and control for themselves
  • 00:13:42
    but instead we didn't so to me it's a
  • 00:13:45
    much bigger question than just what
  • 00:13:46
    happens to a project the problem is
  • 00:13:49
    money power control they're all related
  • 00:13:52
    and when you give that up no one has
  • 00:13:55
    figured out how to avoid the situation
  • 00:13:57
    we now find ourselves in which is people
  • 00:13:59
    will take that work repurpose it for
  • 00:14:01
    their own ends and then cut you out of
  • 00:14:03
    the actual power and control that would
  • 00:14:05
    have made a huge difference if you were
  • 00:14:06
    there to have you know steered it
  • 00:14:08
    differently so guess that's what I'd say
  • 00:14:10
    yeah I mean I'll just chime in on on
  • 00:14:12
    this point like one of the things that
  • 00:14:13
    we wanted to do with gray J was make
  • 00:14:16
    sure that nobody puts adwar into it and
  • 00:14:18
    then puts a knockoff version of it in
  • 00:14:20
    like some store in India um this is
  • 00:14:23
    actually against many open- Source um
  • 00:14:26
    zealots they actually are very unhappy
  • 00:14:29
    if you try to put that condition on
  • 00:14:31
    people that you're not allowed like yeah
  • 00:14:33
    you can look at the source you can
  • 00:14:34
    rebuild it you can know exactly what our
  • 00:14:36
    app is doing but if you add malware on
  • 00:14:38
    it you're not allowed to distribute that
  • 00:14:40
    and like we're going to sue you if we if
  • 00:14:42
    you do that we we we got you know a lot
  • 00:14:44
    of people are unhappy with that um and
  • 00:14:47
    that's why we're not even sure if we can
  • 00:14:48
    call like we're not even sure if we
  • 00:14:50
    should call it open source or not
  • 00:14:51
    because of that like you would think
  • 00:14:53
    these people would be happy for us to be
  • 00:14:54
    joining them but if they don't if
  • 00:14:57
    they're going to be upset at us calling
  • 00:14:58
    ourselves up with Source I don't I don't
  • 00:15:00
    know what we're going to do well I I
  • 00:15:02
    liked your idea of of it's called futoi
  • 00:15:04
    or fish software or something I mean I I
  • 00:15:07
    really think people need to wake up to
  • 00:15:09
    that this reality because it is a
  • 00:15:10
    reality and we are facing real serious
  • 00:15:14
    problems today especially as programmers
  • 00:15:18
    who are used to this particular way of
  • 00:15:19
    doing things where a lot of work that
  • 00:15:21
    programmers have done then gets
  • 00:15:23
    repurposed to have a lot of people who
  • 00:15:26
    don't share any of the same values as
  • 00:15:28
    the prrm who originally made the
  • 00:15:29
    projects on which they depend they then
  • 00:15:33
    do things that those programmers would
  • 00:15:34
    really not have wanted done and I think
  • 00:15:36
    that part of the problem is just that
  • 00:15:38
    case isn't getting made loudly enough I
  • 00:15:40
    think once people kind of start to
  • 00:15:42
    understand that really this is the state
  • 00:15:44
    we're in now is because of that lack of
  • 00:15:47
    ownership that people had I think that
  • 00:15:50
    would perhaps be a good way to compel
  • 00:15:52
    people to think about alternative models
  • 00:15:54
    still like you said Source available or
  • 00:15:56
    whatever or futoi there is a thing we do
  • 00:15:58
    want which is the ability to modify the
  • 00:16:00
    ability to sort of have that ownership
  • 00:16:02
    and not have it taken away to a whim but
  • 00:16:05
    not oh you can take this and repurpose
  • 00:16:07
    it for means exactly opposite of what it
  • 00:16:09
    was initially entailed to uh designed to
  • 00:16:12
    do I mean I'd also like to point out
  • 00:16:14
    that the other aspect that I don't want
  • 00:16:15
    to ignore is the um the pride of
  • 00:16:18
    ownership of the programmer the pro like
  • 00:16:21
    you shouldn't put a programmer in a
  • 00:16:23
    situation where like
  • 00:16:25
    either I'm like almost like a communist
  • 00:16:27
    and I'm just like programming things for
  • 00:16:29
    the community or I'm totally proprietary
  • 00:16:32
    and I can't ever have my source like out
  • 00:16:35
    there like maybe I want to have a path
  • 00:16:37
    for a for a programmer to be able to
  • 00:16:40
    create great things that they're proud
  • 00:16:42
    of and that yeah they can wield control
  • 00:16:44
    over because they did spend a lot of
  • 00:16:45
    time on it and they they are really the
  • 00:16:47
    only contributor for it maybe there's
  • 00:16:49
    other people helping them but yeah they
  • 00:16:51
    did 99% of the work and they might not
  • 00:16:54
    you know like like you said like the
  • 00:16:56
    Linux example at AWS maybe they don't
  • 00:16:58
    like you know I think I think the the
  • 00:17:01
    you know the the environmentalists get
  • 00:17:03
    mad when like somebody users their thing
  • 00:17:05
    whatever you know what whatever is your
  • 00:17:07
    cause it's like you have that pride of
  • 00:17:08
    ownership you express yourself with your
  • 00:17:10
    software
  • 00:17:11
    you're I don't want to like get too
  • 00:17:14
    like you're not really an artist but
  • 00:17:16
    you're kind of an artist sure as as a
  • 00:17:18
    program you're kind of an
  • 00:17:20
    artist I mean uh the thing about having
  • 00:17:23
    licenses that disallow commercial use to
  • 00:17:26
    me as as someone who runs an open source
  • 00:17:29
    project and uh who has to look for ways
  • 00:17:31
    to make it sustainable is that I feel
  • 00:17:34
    like eliminating the possibility of
  • 00:17:36
    commercial Forks of things means that it
  • 00:17:39
    cuts it it it makes sustainability
  • 00:17:42
    harder it can make sustainability harder
  • 00:17:45
    if you can't uh start with an open
  • 00:17:48
    source project like I started with the
  • 00:17:49
    Android open source project which Google
  • 00:17:51
    gives away added a privacy layer on top
  • 00:17:54
    and because of the licensing which is
  • 00:17:55
    all either Apache 2 or MIT uh there's
  • 00:17:58
    nothing restricting me from uh making a
  • 00:18:02
    new project naming it something and
  • 00:18:04
    making it commercial and selling it uh
  • 00:18:06
    so I feel like in some ways the the
  • 00:18:10
    danger of not allowing commercialization
  • 00:18:13
    could mean that you're undermining
  • 00:18:15
    sustainability and potentially
  • 00:18:17
    Innovation because people won't want to
  • 00:18:20
    work on the software if they won't be
  • 00:18:23
    able to like feed themselves with
  • 00:18:25
    it well I think also it's possibly going
  • 00:18:29
    too far to say we don't want to
  • 00:18:31
    commercialize this thing right ideally
  • 00:18:33
    if we could find some way for the the
  • 00:18:35
    money to Simply flow correctly that
  • 00:18:37
    would be the best option right so that
  • 00:18:39
    way when Amazon does build an Empire out
  • 00:18:41
    of your software that you've written you
  • 00:18:44
    get a significant chunk of that back for
  • 00:18:46
    you because then when we do have to pay
  • 00:18:49
    Congress $2
  • 00:18:51
    billion lonus has it and he can right um
  • 00:18:56
    because that's the reality of how the
  • 00:18:57
    world works and so if that money was
  • 00:18:59
    flowing properly and it wasn't that like
  • 00:19:01
    oh you know the people who make this
  • 00:19:03
    thing on the back of your software they
  • 00:19:04
    all get billions and billions of dollars
  • 00:19:06
    and you get a 100
  • 00:19:07
    Grand if you had that those metrics more
  • 00:19:11
    adjusted for the people who actually did
  • 00:19:13
    the work then I think that that to me
  • 00:19:16
    solves the problem right it's unclear
  • 00:19:18
    how exactly you do that but it does then
  • 00:19:20
    make it makes the power and control flow
  • 00:19:22
    properly to the people who actually did
  • 00:19:24
    the work and it allows their values to
  • 00:19:26
    be reflected in the outcome which of
  • 00:19:28
    course and ends up at least in you know
  • 00:19:30
    the way that the world runs currently
  • 00:19:31
    money is a big part of that so
  • 00:19:33
    absolutely yeah we can't deny
  • 00:19:36
    that yeah no I'm just thinking more
  • 00:19:38
    about the different business models that
  • 00:19:39
    were built around Linux like maybe the
  • 00:19:42
    most obvious example would be red hat
  • 00:19:45
    and and their you know the amount of
  • 00:19:47
    money that they've made off doing
  • 00:19:48
    support and also building uh better
  • 00:19:51
    tooling and all the stuff that they've
  • 00:19:53
    done to make it easier to deploy uh that
  • 00:19:56
    has made it kind of so ubiquitous in
  • 00:19:57
    what in finance and all the different
  • 00:19:58
    places where it's used uh but of course
  • 00:20:02
    going back to your point uh little if
  • 00:20:05
    any if any of that went back to lenus
  • 00:20:08
    yeah Ian I'm sure some did right like
  • 00:20:10
    but it's not commensurate and I think
  • 00:20:12
    that's usually the way it is it's like
  • 00:20:14
    most of the time something goes back
  • 00:20:16
    yeah but the ratios I think to an
  • 00:20:18
    observer who was trying to fairly uh
  • 00:20:22
    assess how much work was required from
  • 00:20:24
    each of the you know participants in a
  • 00:20:26
    project simply wouldn't think the values
  • 00:20:28
    were you know you get people who've done
  • 00:20:30
    very little by comparison I I mean I
  • 00:20:33
    guess the best example might be
  • 00:20:34
    something like Facebook if you think
  • 00:20:36
    about the entire stack that was
  • 00:20:37
    necessary for Mark Zuckerberg to get
  • 00:20:39
    that started almost none of it was his
  • 00:20:41
    right almost all of it was hard workk by
  • 00:20:42
    other people whether it's Linux whether
  • 00:20:44
    it's the web server whether it's PHP
  • 00:20:46
    whatever none of those people have even
  • 00:20:48
    a fraction of the amount of Facebook
  • 00:20:50
    ownership that he does and so as a
  • 00:20:52
    result their values are not reflected
  • 00:20:54
    even though they were very critical in
  • 00:20:57
    the production of that piece of softare
  • 00:20:58
    software so that's really the thing that
  • 00:21:00
    I always come back to as being concerned
  • 00:21:01
    about and would like to see a solution
  • 00:21:03
    to preferably one that doesn't destroy
  • 00:21:05
    the other positive a aspects of Open
  • 00:21:07
    Source such as the reliability the L the
  • 00:21:10
    sense of ownership and so on but
  • 00:21:12
    actually that kind of made me remember
  • 00:21:14
    way back to the first thing I ever did
  • 00:21:16
    which was I set up one of the first isps
  • 00:21:19
    in New York City like
  • 00:21:21
    1994 and it was obvious I was going to
  • 00:21:24
    run it on on Unix and at that time it
  • 00:21:27
    was like
  • 00:21:29
    just it was like the first day that you
  • 00:21:31
    could get an installable Linux drro so
  • 00:21:34
    the only thing that had previously been
  • 00:21:35
    available was bsdi which was a
  • 00:21:37
    commercial uh BSD and it cost like 10
  • 00:21:40
    grand for one machine that was the
  • 00:21:42
    license fee uh and I didn't have 10
  • 00:21:44
    grand and so I ended up being able to
  • 00:21:47
    install slackware Linux on a stack of 94
  • 00:21:50
    floppies I had to write 94 floppies and
  • 00:21:53
    insert one after the next and hope that
  • 00:21:55
    not one of the 94 had a bad block which
  • 00:21:58
    thank God none of them did because I
  • 00:21:59
    don't know how I would have trouble shot
  • 00:22:01
    that but I was thinking about it that
  • 00:22:03
    like the fact that it was free
  • 00:22:06
    software uh enabled me to start a
  • 00:22:10
    business which ultimately led to being
  • 00:22:13
    like the
  • 00:22:15
    successful is uh you know upstanding
  • 00:22:18
    adult that I am now that's had a whole
  • 00:22:19
    career based on this stuff and that
  • 00:22:22
    maybe if if only bsdi or or Sonos or
  • 00:22:25
    some other commercial solution had been
  • 00:22:27
    the only thing available to me son would
  • 00:22:29
    would have been out of the question it
  • 00:22:30
    would have been way more than bsdi so
  • 00:22:32
    like I would have been kind of just kept
  • 00:22:33
    out of the tech sector and it was you
  • 00:22:37
    know when when I've met people like I I
  • 00:22:38
    met stalman and I told him I was like oh
  • 00:22:40
    it's all because of your work I
  • 00:22:41
    appreciate it I have you know a career
  • 00:22:43
    and stuff uh he told me God damn it call
  • 00:22:46
    it g Linux or whatever he yelled at me
  • 00:22:48
    and did he launched into that whole
  • 00:22:50
    thing seriously dead serious dead
  • 00:22:52
    serious 100% but um he did the same
  • 00:22:55
    with me on the phone yes yes yes but I
  • 00:22:57
    just put my phone down walked away for
  • 00:22:59
    10 but but but but despite that I know
  • 00:23:01
    he's I know he's nuts but I but I still
  • 00:23:03
    appreciate his his dedication and and
  • 00:23:06
    all that but but I guess what I'm saying
  • 00:23:08
    is like I feel like that uh letting
  • 00:23:11
    people use all the software for free is
  • 00:23:14
    just good for bringing for creating a
  • 00:23:16
    middle class across the world for
  • 00:23:18
    helping people start small businesses
  • 00:23:19
    for helping people get in with with like
  • 00:23:21
    almost nothing and and so I because
  • 00:23:24
    because it helped me get started in my
  • 00:23:26
    Tech Career I I I feel like really like
  • 00:23:29
    a like a soft spot of my heart for what
  • 00:23:32
    about an alternative World though where
  • 00:23:34
    Linux uh you did have to pay a fe for
  • 00:23:36
    Linux but it was still kind of all open
  • 00:23:39
    and you could start using it without
  • 00:23:40
    paying anybody and Linux only comes
  • 00:23:44
    after you once you're successful would
  • 00:23:46
    that have worked
  • 00:23:47
    out it might have yeah I think so that
  • 00:23:50
    could have worked I'm yeah I'm not
  • 00:23:51
    saying it couldn't have um yeah that
  • 00:23:55
    that that could have worked just as well
  • 00:23:56
    I suppose but I don't think he was that
  • 00:23:58
    kind of a business genius to think of it
  • 00:23:59
    that way either well also I mean there's
  • 00:24:02
    other models you can choose right you
  • 00:24:04
    can choose royalty based models you can
  • 00:24:05
    have alternatives for people where it's
  • 00:24:07
    like because if the problem you're
  • 00:24:08
    trying to solve is Facebook builds a you
  • 00:24:12
    know trillion dollar company on your
  • 00:24:14
    software and you get
  • 00:24:16
    nothing well you know the goal is to
  • 00:24:19
    make that be very expensive for Facebook
  • 00:24:21
    so that they have to give you a
  • 00:24:22
    significant share of that money but if
  • 00:24:25
    someone's never going to do that you
  • 00:24:26
    don't really need to guard against that
  • 00:24:29
    so something that's you know giving
  • 00:24:31
    people options that are more like you
  • 00:24:32
    know like if you're going to start a
  • 00:24:33
    business it's free for the first 00,000
  • 00:24:36
    of your income like we're not going to
  • 00:24:39
    ask you to pay anything and in the game
  • 00:24:41
    industry these kinds of license models
  • 00:24:43
    exist all over the place you see things
  • 00:24:44
    in game engines and stuff like that it's
  • 00:24:45
    very common it's like look you can use
  • 00:24:47
    the whole thing for free when you ship
  • 00:24:49
    we take 5% something like that right and
  • 00:24:52
    I feel like those are better economic
  • 00:24:54
    models for things like this because yeah
  • 00:24:55
    like you really don't want to prevent
  • 00:24:57
    start from using this technology or
  • 00:25:00
    individuals from using this technology
  • 00:25:02
    just to do experimentation in their
  • 00:25:04
    their own stuff so upfront fees usually
  • 00:25:06
    don't do a good job of capturing It
  • 00:25:08
    generally
  • 00:25:09
    speaking I can totally see how that
  • 00:25:11
    model could work but then I also I'm
  • 00:25:14
    thinking about how many people freely
  • 00:25:17
    and willingly send in you know poll
  • 00:25:21
    requests and and and code to to open
  • 00:25:23
    projects like Linux which they probably
  • 00:25:25
    wouldn't do if someone else was going to
  • 00:25:27
    be making the license fee from unless
  • 00:25:29
    there was some kind of Revenue share
  • 00:25:30
    thing maybe but that would get super
  • 00:25:33
    complicated super fast and there's
  • 00:25:34
    probably like one line in the kernel
  • 00:25:36
    written by this one person 30 years ago
  • 00:25:38
    or whatever there's a lot of really old
  • 00:25:39
    Legacy stuff in there but um but I'm
  • 00:25:42
    thinking specifically about just
  • 00:25:44
    different governments that have
  • 00:25:45
    contributed to it I mean even as creepy
  • 00:25:48
    as it is like NSA has contributed a lot
  • 00:25:50
    of stuff to Colonel security uh and one
  • 00:25:53
    of the arguments I always heard of like
  • 00:25:55
    why Linux could arguably be one of the
  • 00:25:58
    most secure free Unix is is because of
  • 00:26:00
    the amount of eyeballs that look at it
  • 00:26:02
    and the reason why NSA wanted to use it
  • 00:26:05
    for themselves was because of that
  • 00:26:07
    because of how how highly competitive is
  • 00:26:10
    like all the you know every every
  • 00:26:11
    country in the world has these giant
  • 00:26:13
    supercomputer clusters they all run
  • 00:26:14
    Linux and they all are trying to steal
  • 00:26:17
    each other's uh nuclear secrets and
  • 00:26:19
    mapping secrets and all the stuff that
  • 00:26:20
    they're doing so it's like they all have
  • 00:26:23
    this weird dayun of like they all are
  • 00:26:26
    looking at each other wanting to steal
  • 00:26:28
    the info from each other and wanting to
  • 00:26:29
    protect themselves so it's sort of like
  • 00:26:32
    that that antagonism Dynamic to me makes
  • 00:26:35
    it seem more trustworthy than something
  • 00:26:37
    that's more
  • 00:26:40
    closed uh yeah I guess but I I'm not
  • 00:26:43
    really sure that those things still
  • 00:26:44
    wouldn't happen because the the majority
  • 00:26:46
    of the reason that they do those things
  • 00:26:48
    is because it's is because the source is
  • 00:26:51
    available it's not really because of
  • 00:26:53
    much else right I mean they can't submit
  • 00:26:56
    a pull request for Microsoft it's
  • 00:26:58
    probably the reason they don't I think
  • 00:27:00
    the US government probably would submit
  • 00:27:01
    a lot of pull requests for Microsoft
  • 00:27:03
    Windows if they could right so I'm not
  • 00:27:05
    really sure uh at least when I've seen
  • 00:27:08
    projects that have a GitHub that's
  • 00:27:10
    private they still get tons of uh pull
  • 00:27:12
    uh pull requests from their customers so
  • 00:27:15
    I think it's not that big of a risk
  • 00:27:17
    right getting the economic model fair is
  • 00:27:19
    always difficult because to your point
  • 00:27:23
    maybe I'll I'll switch it around a
  • 00:27:24
    little and say something that there like
  • 00:27:27
    would be concerning to me it's like well
  • 00:27:28
    but what happens if someone does a ton
  • 00:27:30
    of work on this thing and they're not
  • 00:27:32
    sharing in any of those economic
  • 00:27:34
    benefits right which is the whole thing
  • 00:27:35
    we were trying to prevent so that's
  • 00:27:37
    still a problem right because if people
  • 00:27:39
    are just giving their work to this for
  • 00:27:40
    free and they never ask for anything
  • 00:27:42
    back well they're getting cut out you
  • 00:27:43
    know could we do something better where
  • 00:27:44
    if you're found to be a material
  • 00:27:46
    contributor like we you know you get
  • 00:27:47
    some of that so I'm not saying it's easy
  • 00:27:50
    but is it really that big of a practical
  • 00:27:52
    barrier that it would be something
  • 00:27:54
    that's that's has a a royalty attached
  • 00:27:56
    to it I I don't think it would create
  • 00:27:57
    that big of a problem to be completely
  • 00:27:59
    honest I mean maybe I'm wrong but I
  • 00:28:01
    don't know I'm just thinking about the
  • 00:28:03
    like millions of hours that people put
  • 00:28:04
    into like making you know emac and Vim
  • 00:28:09
    and all the different editors and stuff
  • 00:28:10
    like that and like how are they ever
  • 00:28:11
    really going to capitalize on that you
  • 00:28:14
    know what I mean and some of the tools
  • 00:28:15
    like netcat or whatever like just little
  • 00:28:17
    little tools that that but actually are
  • 00:28:19
    are huge nmap whatever Network Tools
  • 00:28:21
    stuff like that like I feel like some of
  • 00:28:23
    it could be capitalized on but some of
  • 00:28:25
    it may not
  • 00:28:27
    have the possib I at least I can't
  • 00:28:29
    Envision the business model that you can
  • 00:28:31
    make it sustainable yeah I don't I don't
  • 00:28:33
    think it's possible to do it for
  • 00:28:35
    everything right like it's probably like
  • 00:28:36
    at some point you get down to a certain
  • 00:28:38
    level where it's like look unless we
  • 00:28:41
    make some amazing future AI that just
  • 00:28:43
    like the the ultimate work understanding
  • 00:28:46
    AI that knows exactly how hard everyone
  • 00:28:49
    worked on everything but yes assuming
  • 00:28:51
    that we don't have some magical future
  • 00:28:53
    yeah I I think M that's a good idea
  • 00:28:56
    though I like that I like the magic AI
  • 00:28:58
    maybe that's something Futo could find I
  • 00:29:00
    think we got time to shift shift gears
  • 00:29:01
    in this just sort of one more time
  • 00:29:03
    there's a topic that you kind of all
  • 00:29:04
    have touched on but I'd like you all get
  • 00:29:06
    to weigh in on a little more fully uh
  • 00:29:08
    Casey I feel like you get the last word
  • 00:29:10
    here Nick you you're welcome to take the
  • 00:29:11
    First on this and it's the subject of
  • 00:29:13
    Open Source capture and I think there's
  • 00:29:15
    kind of two angles of this uh Casey what
  • 00:29:17
    you called uh repurposing earlier this
  • 00:29:19
    sort of tragedy of the commons rating
  • 00:29:22
    the work of of thousands of developers
  • 00:29:25
    and millions of man-hours and then
  • 00:29:26
    turning it into into a monster that we
  • 00:29:29
    know and the other is is sort of the uh
  • 00:29:31
    what I call like Financial capture the
  • 00:29:33
    fact that a lot of these um otherwise
  • 00:29:35
    not particularly profitable companies or
  • 00:29:37
    nonprofits uh wind up receiving a ton of
  • 00:29:40
    their money and I think we can all name
  • 00:29:42
    examples of of supposedly open source
  • 00:29:43
    projects that are for all intents and
  • 00:29:46
    purposes uh adjuncts of of the tech
  • 00:29:48
    oligopoly at this point um is this
  • 00:29:52
    preventable and if so how how how is it
  • 00:29:55
    best to steer um open open source
  • 00:29:58
    projects to not to not suffer capture I
  • 00:30:01
    guess I'm not 100% understanding who
  • 00:30:04
    you're meaning I'm like in my mind it
  • 00:30:05
    sounds like you're talking about
  • 00:30:07
    mozzilla yeah
  • 00:30:09
    basically I don't know yeah no I'm just
  • 00:30:11
    trying to understand because I I feel
  • 00:30:13
    like in my mind I can't wrap my mind
  • 00:30:14
    around unless I understand I mean I
  • 00:30:17
    don't know uh I I I like their business
  • 00:30:20
    model I wanted to copy it I like the
  • 00:30:22
    idea of a nonprofit that owns a
  • 00:30:24
    for-profit and I thought about doing it
  • 00:30:25
    at one time I never did end up doing it
  • 00:30:27
    but but I kind of I like the idea of
  • 00:30:31
    taking advantage of the different
  • 00:30:33
    properties that a for-profit and a
  • 00:30:34
    nonprofit
  • 00:30:36
    has to to obain to obtain different uh
  • 00:30:41
    uh options and and be able to further a
  • 00:30:44
    goal but um you know I guess I'm so old
  • 00:30:48
    I remember when there was just Netscape
  • 00:30:50
    and and then there was you know there
  • 00:30:52
    wasn't like browser competition and
  • 00:30:55
    uh I don't know I kind of like seeing
  • 00:30:57
    all the different
  • 00:30:58
    options out there and then the business
  • 00:31:01
    model that Mozilla built I mean it's
  • 00:31:03
    kind of gross but I think a bunch of
  • 00:31:07
    Google has corrupted a bunch of places
  • 00:31:09
    by by paying them off to make Google be
  • 00:31:11
    their default search engine and you know
  • 00:31:13
    with our with our phones we were're
  • 00:31:16
    pushing all the alternative ones duck
  • 00:31:18
    ducko or whatever uh start page all that
  • 00:31:20
    kind of thing um but uh I don't know I
  • 00:31:24
    guess in my mind I don't I don't hold it
  • 00:31:27
    against MO what what they did cuz it
  • 00:31:30
    seemed like like I I have a thing where
  • 00:31:33
    I appreciate something which I would I
  • 00:31:34
    always call it like the evil Super
  • 00:31:36
    Genius like I'm like okay that's kind of
  • 00:31:39
    messed up but I also have to I have to
  • 00:31:41
    tip my hat like that was pretty smart
  • 00:31:44
    you know what I mean so like I I have a
  • 00:31:46
    way of holding both both things in my
  • 00:31:48
    mind at the same time that like I I'm
  • 00:31:49
    not sure I like how they did it but I
  • 00:31:50
    got to respect the hustle kind of a
  • 00:31:55
    thing um L did you went away on
  • 00:31:59
    any of this cap capture of Open Source
  • 00:32:00
    you know ways to prevent it how serious
  • 00:32:03
    of a problem it is I mean when it comes
  • 00:32:05
    to Firefox I don't know how much of this
  • 00:32:07
    is like they like what is the worst part
  • 00:32:09
    of it is that is is the idea that if
  • 00:32:11
    you're making so much money regardless
  • 00:32:12
    of the software being competitive or
  • 00:32:14
    good that you won't be incentivized to
  • 00:32:15
    hire new Engineers or is it something
  • 00:32:16
    more malicious or why why would you say
  • 00:32:19
    Firefox has like you know two or 3%
  • 00:32:21
    dwindling Market check oh that's a great
  • 00:32:24
    question I don't know the answer but it
  • 00:32:26
    probably comes down to money some but
  • 00:32:28
    but it's a gigantic organization right
  • 00:32:30
    they employ like ,000 people all over
  • 00:32:33
    the world and they hold these giant
  • 00:32:35
    mfest things and they seem to uh result
  • 00:32:39
    in money trickling down into like a
  • 00:32:40
    million other projects and they had that
  • 00:32:44
    you know Thunderbird and all these other
  • 00:32:45
    spin-off things that are kind of cool
  • 00:32:47
    and I don't know uh I don't know someone
  • 00:32:51
    someone told me what's so bad about I
  • 00:32:52
    don't know like I've been using
  • 00:32:53
    Thunderbird for the past 15 years and
  • 00:32:55
    I've noticed that you know it really
  • 00:32:57
    doesn't matter how you try to train the
  • 00:32:58
    junk filter it has not work for 15 years
  • 00:33:00
    and I just kind of Wonder like if you
  • 00:33:01
    were in getting tens of millions of
  • 00:33:03
    dollars regardless of whether the
  • 00:33:04
    software was amazing or not because you
  • 00:33:06
    know that you're going to get that again
  • 00:33:08
    the incentive structure to hire somebody
  • 00:33:10
    that may like like I don't know if I my
  • 00:33:12
    own company would you know like have
  • 00:33:14
    difficult conversations with an employee
  • 00:33:15
    that's not really performing to a
  • 00:33:17
    certain standard if I knew I was kind of
  • 00:33:18
    getting money anyway because I'm trying
  • 00:33:20
    to like I hear what you're saying which
  • 00:33:21
    is you know they have this capture where
  • 00:33:22
    Google and other Clos Source companies
  • 00:33:24
    that are directly competing with them
  • 00:33:25
    are donating tons of money but I can't
  • 00:33:27
    make the but I want to know what is the
  • 00:33:28
    direct connection between that and you
  • 00:33:30
    having garbage market share after 15
  • 00:33:31
    years like that that's a theory of mine
  • 00:33:33
    but I'm just pulling that out of my ass
  • 00:33:35
    yeah I don't know I mean I I sometimes
  • 00:33:38
    I'm I'm super cynical about stuff and
  • 00:33:39
    other times I feel like overly
  • 00:33:41
    unrealistic and romantic about it and
  • 00:33:43
    I'm like oh that's like Robin Hood
  • 00:33:44
    they're like stealing from the rich and
  • 00:33:46
    giving to the poor this is super cool uh
  • 00:33:49
    so like on some level I can view Mozilla
  • 00:33:51
    in that light um they're they're not
  • 00:33:54
    exactly stealing from Google Google's
  • 00:33:56
    willingly you know bribing them to put
  • 00:33:58
    their browser as the their search engine
  • 00:34:01
    as as the top uh search engine in or the
  • 00:34:03
    only search engine in in their browser
  • 00:34:05
    but um I don't know
  • 00:34:08
    uh I hear what you're saying about
  • 00:34:10
    Thunderbird but I don't know I've also
  • 00:34:12
    been using it that long and I don't know
  • 00:34:13
    I think I had a problem once where it
  • 00:34:15
    like it deleted a bunch of my stuff but
  • 00:34:17
    but I have like 25 years of email in it
  • 00:34:21
    and it's a gigantic amount of data so I
  • 00:34:23
    kind of like see how that's not a super
  • 00:34:26
    easy problem and I don't know that it
  • 00:34:27
    was like at least 15 years ago I don't
  • 00:34:29
    hold it against them but where do you
  • 00:34:31
    draw the line where would you where do
  • 00:34:32
    you draw the line between you know
  • 00:34:34
    they're getting all they're getting tens
  • 00:34:35
    of millions of dollars from Google and
  • 00:34:36
    they have no marog hundreds of millions
  • 00:34:39
    yeah okay like what do you draw the line
  • 00:34:40
    between like how do you draw a direct
  • 00:34:41
    line between they're getting hundreds of
  • 00:34:43
    millions of dollars from Google Chrome
  • 00:34:45
    has all this market share and Firefox
  • 00:34:46
    has 3% because like that they like I see
  • 00:34:48
    you know Google the idea that they're
  • 00:34:51
    capturing this product there has to be a
  • 00:34:52
    method there has to be a theory that
  • 00:34:54
    connects to why their market share is
  • 00:34:55
    dwindling and just close to nothing and
  • 00:34:57
    them giving money like my mine was a
  • 00:34:59
    theory I don't know if it's a true
  • 00:35:00
    theory or not it's just like thinking as
  • 00:35:02
    a business owner I again I I just
  • 00:35:04
    wouldn't really care if my employee is
  • 00:35:05
    the most productive or competitive if I
  • 00:35:07
    knew I was going to get paid anyway but
  • 00:35:09
    but I'm sure there's other competing
  • 00:35:10
    theories like what why how do what do
  • 00:35:12
    you think is the direct relationship if
  • 00:35:14
    any between Google giving you know
  • 00:35:16
    mozilla's nonprofit this much money and
  • 00:35:18
    them having two or 3% market share and
  • 00:35:20
    not being competitive because you've
  • 00:35:21
    said many times I've heard you like
  • 00:35:22
    Firefox is losing this is bad yeah I
  • 00:35:24
    mean well if I'm a if I'm a top-notch
  • 00:35:25
    engineer at Mozilla um
  • 00:35:28
    Google has access to hire me to work for
  • 00:35:31
    Google and pay me a lot more than I'm
  • 00:35:32
    making at Milla it's that
  • 00:35:34
    simple so you're gonna Google will be
  • 00:35:37
    taking all the best Engineers like as a
  • 00:35:40
    company you have put yourself in a
  • 00:35:42
    position where all your best Engineers
  • 00:35:44
    are moving to your
  • 00:35:46
    competition but do you have to donate to
  • 00:35:48
    the company in order for that to happen
  • 00:35:49
    like if I was a recruiter that worked at
  • 00:35:50
    Google couldn't I just show up to a
  • 00:35:51
    mozfest or something and say like what
  • 00:35:53
    are you making I'll pay you three times
  • 00:35:54
    as much to work on this like I don't
  • 00:35:56
    even know if the donation have to
  • 00:35:58
    actually happen for this to occur well
  • 00:35:59
    the donations might happen just so there
  • 00:36:02
    appears to be competition right so one
  • 00:36:04
    of the things that you know is kind of
  • 00:36:06
    classic uh in these kind of Industries
  • 00:36:09
    is like we don't want a government to
  • 00:36:11
    look down and see only Chrome because
  • 00:36:13
    then all of a sudden we get regulated so
  • 00:36:17
    we'll just keep funding Firefox or
  • 00:36:20
    whoever else is the person who we can
  • 00:36:22
    most visibly fund and then that way
  • 00:36:24
    there's choice in the browser market
  • 00:36:26
    quote unquote right
  • 00:36:28
    so I have no idea if this is actually
  • 00:36:30
    true but I could actually I could
  • 00:36:32
    totally believe that one reason for that
  • 00:36:34
    because we've seen it before Microsoft
  • 00:36:35
    has done things like this in the past
  • 00:36:37
    where it's like they just want to keep
  • 00:36:39
    someone who is not particularly
  • 00:36:41
    threatening but is at least there to
  • 00:36:43
    just kind of make it so that it's not
  • 00:36:45
    you know a complete Monopoly right in
  • 00:36:47
    this case it doesn't seem to have worked
  • 00:36:48
    because they've gotten down so low how
  • 00:36:50
    much of that is you know the whole thing
  • 00:36:52
    of like nobody knows or cares about
  • 00:36:54
    knowing versus like it actually sucks
  • 00:36:56
    like for instance you know you have the
  • 00:36:57
    image developers there like I think that
  • 00:36:58
    that's better than Google photos and
  • 00:37:00
    it's free and it's open source and it's
  • 00:37:02
    actually works better unlike the Kaden
  • 00:37:03
    live example like we you know there's
  • 00:37:05
    all this money that would have to be put
  • 00:37:06
    into it to code all these features where
  • 00:37:07
    I would pay for it I would pay for that
  • 00:37:08
    as it is like is is it that people don't
  • 00:37:11
    know that it exists or is is it just
  • 00:37:12
    garbage like you know I don't know you
  • 00:37:14
    you've said some U you for you let me
  • 00:37:17
    just the nice way to put it is I I
  • 00:37:19
    believe Firefox is not your preference
  • 00:37:20
    but like I've used it like it works I
  • 00:37:22
    can do everything I need to do I have my
  • 00:37:23
    ad blocker I have my script blocker it
  • 00:37:25
    loads Pages fast like is it really not a
  • 00:37:27
    choice choice or is it just a choice
  • 00:37:28
    that nobody chooses because it's not the
  • 00:37:30
    default or they don't know what it is or
  • 00:37:32
    something like that well I mean you know
  • 00:37:34
    to the extent you know we're just
  • 00:37:36
    getting started here at Futo we're going
  • 00:37:38
    to have open source projects that um or
  • 00:37:41
    whatever you want futoi Futo we source
  • 00:37:44
    source first maybe do you guys like
  • 00:37:46
    Source first um uh we're gonna have
  • 00:37:49
    projects that uh may actually if we're
  • 00:37:52
    not you know if we don't have tens of
  • 00:37:53
    millions of users in our projects in 10
  • 00:37:55
    years I'm going to be very disappointed
  • 00:37:57
    um we're going to have to solve those
  • 00:37:59
    problems we're going to have to make
  • 00:38:00
    sure that our we have Revenue directly
  • 00:38:03
    from the consumers who are using our
  • 00:38:05
    software because if we don't have that
  • 00:38:07
    Revenue directly from the consumers
  • 00:38:08
    using our software yeah we're not going
  • 00:38:10
    to be able to compete in the long term
  • 00:38:13
    so we've we've only got a couple of
  • 00:38:14
    minutes left here but uh Erin I think
  • 00:38:16
    you kind of preempted me there I I was
  • 00:38:18
    about to give you the last word to say
  • 00:38:19
    kind of where fudo fits in um with this
  • 00:38:22
    and I think I think you've kind of
  • 00:38:24
    nailed that already so any any further
  • 00:38:26
    words on on the future of food close out
  • 00:38:28
    uh this this panel in the
  • 00:38:31
    conference
  • 00:38:33
    um I don't
  • 00:38:34
    know I hope I hope uh we succeed like I
  • 00:38:38
    I hope we you know I I hope you help us
  • 00:38:41
    succeed all right well thank you very
  • 00:38:44
    much to the
  • 00:38:48
    panelists
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