Stan Druckenmiller | Podcast | In Good Company | Norges Bank Investment Management
摘要
TLDRL'entretien mené par Nicola Tangen avec Stan Ren Miller offre un aperçu approfondi de l'état actuel du marché et des perspectives économiques futures. Miller, connu pour son approche macroéconomique pragmatique, souligne ne pas percevoir de faiblesses économiques majeures à l'horizon, hormis dans le secteur immobilier. Il exprime des inquiétudes concernant une déclaration prématurée de la victoire de la Fed sur l'inflation, se référant aux erreurs des années 70. Miller discute de son approche particulière à l'analyse des marchés, mélangeant intuition et stratégie, et mettant en avant l'importance de réagir rapidement aux opportunités. Il partage ses craintes concernant le déficit budgétaire et les effets de la politique monétaire actuelle. Miller évoque l'avènement de l'IA dans le secteur technologique, analysant ses implications tout en reconnaissant ses propres limitations en termes d'anticipation de chaque évolution potentielle. Enfin, il conseille aux jeunes investisseurs de suivre une passion sincère pour les marchés, plutôt que de les intégrer simplement pour un bénéfice financier.
心得
- 📈 Les investissements de Miller sont basés sur une analyse macro économique profonde.
- 💡 Privilégier l'intuition rapide peut débloquer des opportunités d'investissements majeures.
- 📉 Il redoute une résurgence de l'inflation due à une politique monétaire trop laxiste.
- 🤖 L'IA est vue comme une nouvelle frontière d'innovation, mais nécessite une approche prudente.
- 💼 La responsabilité de la Fed est scrutée dans ses décisions stratégiques concernant l'économie.
- 🛒 Avoir la flexibilité de changer de position est essentiel dans une gestion réussie de portefeuille.
- 🏦 Miller tire parti des erreurs financières historiques des banques centrales.
- ⚠️ S'inquiète du déficit budgétaire croissant et de ses implications futures.
- 🚀 Les évolutions technologiques sont cruciales mais complexes à maîtriser.
- 👔 Conseille aux jeunes de s'engager passionnément et non par intérêt pécuniaire.
时间轴
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Nicola Tangen, le PDG du Fonds souverain norvégien, s'entretient avec Stan Ren Miller sur l'état actuel de l'économie. Miller, bien qu'il soit un investisseur macroéconomique, affirme ne pas voir de signes significatifs de faiblesse économique, à l'exception du marché immobilier. Il s'inquiète cependant de l'inflation, évoquant des parallèles avec les années 70 et exprimant des doutes quant aux décisions de la FED. Il évoque aussi la possibilité d'une hausse des taux d'intérêt en cas de victoire de Trump.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Miller critique l'obsession de la Réserve fédérale pour un 'atterrissage en douceur', soulignant que leur rôle est d'éviter les grandes erreurs économiques à long terme. Il parle de la perte de flexibilité que suscite l'orientation future de la FED et des problèmes posés par le déficit budgétaire. Selon Miller, les États-Unis ont pu se permettre des comportements économiques que d'autres pays ne pourraient pas en raison de leur statut de monnaie de réserve.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Il estime que le problème du déficit budgétaire des États-Unis pourrait se manifester d'ici 2025 ou 2026, en partie à cause de la montée des taux d'intérêt. Les taux pourraient atteindre 6 à 7 % si l'inflation repartait à la hausse, se référant à une situation similaire dans les années 70. Miller mentionne sa position actuelle de vente à découvert sur des obligations, bien qu'il se garde de toute surexposition.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Même si le leadership du marché boursier est étroit, il y a un élargissement progressif des secteurs qui prennent la tête, notamment les financières. Il note la continuation du boom de l'IA, qui est perçu comme une menace existentielle par les entreprises. Il reste prudent sur la façon de jouer cette tendance, focalisé sur des applications AI encore inexploitées.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Miller partage son expérience dans la détection précoce des tendances, notamment sur l'exemple d'Nvidia. Il a identifié l'intérêt croissant pour l'IA à travers les jeunes diplômés se détournant de la cryptographie. Une approche partagée est d'investir d'abord et d'analyser ensuite, pour ne pas rater les mouvements importants du marché.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Miller souligne l'importance d'un jugement prospectif dans l'investissement. Il s'agit d'anticiper les conditions économiques futures et d'aligner ses investissements en conséquence. Il évoque également sa capacité à réviser ses décisions d'investissement, inspirée par son temps avec Soros, qui était également prompt à réajuster ses positions selon les développements du marché.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Il discute de moments marquants de sa carrière, comme le trading sur la livre sterling, où travailler avec George Soros lui a enseigné l'importance de bénéficier pleinement des opportunités de marché. Soros insistait pour doubler la conviction, un trait qui a influencé Miller mais qu'il n'a pas totalement adopté.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Miller aborde l'échec des opportunités d'arbitrage des monnaies d'autres pays comme la Suède et la Thaïlande, souvent peu connues malgré leur succès. Il se souvient de transactions réussies mais discute aussi des erreurs passées, notamment le fait de ne pas avoir capitalisé davantage sur la hausse des taux.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Il exprime des réserves sur la capacité des machines à remplacer complètement les humains dans le domaine de l'investissement, préférant une approche combinant intelligence humaine et machine. Il évoque son amitié avec le champion d'échecs Gary Kasparov, qui utilise les machines pour s'entraîner, comme une analogie de ce qui est possible dans le domaine financier.
- 00:45:00 - 00:51:56
Stan Miller conseille aux jeunes entrant dans le secteur financier de ne pas le faire uniquement pour l'argent mais pour la passion du domaine. Il recommande d'apprendre auprès d'un mentor et d'être ouvert à différentes voies au sein de l'industrie, tout en gardant une approche analytique mais adaptative.
思维导图
常见问题
Quelle est la perspective économique actuelle selon Stan Ren Miller ?
Selon Stan Ren Miller, il n'y a pas de signes matériels de faiblesse économique, à part peut-être le marché du logement.
Quels facteurs pourraient influencer une nouvelle hausse d'inflation selon Miller ?
Une amélioration des conditions financières, élection de Trump, ou encore des tarifs douaniers pourraient influencer l'inflation.
Pourquoi Stan Ren Miller est préoccupé par les politiques de la banque centrale ?
Il pense que la Fed pourrait commettre des erreurs en s'obsédant sur un atterrissage en douceur de l'économie.
Comment Stan Ren Miller intègre-t-il l'IA dans ses décisions d'investissement ?
Il utilise l'IA pour compléter l'analyse humaine mais reste prudent sur l'endroit où investir dans ce domaine.
Comment Stan Ren Miller évalue-t-il la responsabilité de la Fed pour l'inflation des années 70 ?
Il craint que la Fed ne déclare trop tôt sa victoire contre l'inflation, rappelant les erreurs similaires des années 70.
Comment Miller a-t-il réagi face aux erreurs de la Fed précédemment ?
Il est connu pour tirer profit des erreurs de la Fed par une gestion prudente de ses positions sur le marché.
Quels sont les challenges actuels du marché selon Miller ?
Il souligne la narrowité du leadership boursier, l'inflation potentielle sous-estimée et des déficits budgétaires inquiétants.
Quels conseils Miller donne-t-il aux jeunes investisseurs ?
Il insiste sur le fait de ne pas rechercher ce métier uniquement pour l'argent, mais pour une véritable passion des marchés.
Comment Miller voit-il l'évolution future du secteur technologique ?
Il reste optimiste sur l'impact de l'IA mais cherche encore où placer ses investissements pour en tirer profit.
Pourquoi Miller prend-il parfois des décisions d'achat rapide sans analyse approfondie initiale ?
Il préfère acheter immédiatement sur une intuition puis investiguer pour éviter de manquer des opportunités importantes.
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- 00:00:00[Music]
- 00:00:01hi everybody I'm Nicola tangan the CEO
- 00:00:03of the Norwegian Sovereign wealth fund
- 00:00:04and today I'm here with Stan Ren Miller
- 00:00:07at proper legend in the investment World
- 00:00:10San what a pleasure to be here happy to
- 00:00:11see you niai now what are the most
- 00:00:14important data you're looking at these
- 00:00:16days currently yeah interestingly enough
- 00:00:19I'm known as a macro investor but I do a
- 00:00:23macro from the bottom up so we're
- 00:00:25listening primarily to companies and
- 00:00:29we're not seeing
- 00:00:30any material signs of weakness other
- 00:00:34than maybe in the housing market but
- 00:00:37that's from a very elevated price level
- 00:00:40so we're not seeing bottom up in
- 00:00:42information indicating to us that
- 00:00:45there's an economic problem anytime in
- 00:00:47the next 3 to six months I would also
- 00:00:50say I'm revealing now that I'm more of a
- 00:00:52market animal than an economist that we
- 00:00:55look at Financial
- 00:00:57conditions they've been very very loose
- 00:01:00I mean they're is looser looser than
- 00:01:02they were when the FED actually started
- 00:01:04tightening they've tightened
- 00:01:07considerably in the
- 00:01:09last four or five weeks ever since the
- 00:01:12ironically ever since the FED cut
- 00:01:14because the dollar has ried and
- 00:01:17obviously interest rates have gone up
- 00:01:19but they're still they're still quite
- 00:01:21above normal so that's pretty much the
- 00:01:24data we're looking at I'd say the other
- 00:01:26thing I'm focused on I've been obsessed
- 00:01:28with whether we were in the 70s um
- 00:01:33really since 2021 when this whole
- 00:01:37inflationary episode started and I'd say
- 00:01:40two years ago or a year and a half ago I
- 00:01:43was very confident that inflation was
- 00:01:46going to come down which I was right on
- 00:01:49but I was worried about the economy
- 00:01:52which I was completely wrong on um more
- 00:01:56recently and you can take this with a
- 00:01:58grain of salt since I had one right and
- 00:02:00one wrong there um I've switched to
- 00:02:03being more worried about inflation going
- 00:02:06forward uh than the economy itself why
- 00:02:09do I say that if we go back to the 70s
- 00:02:12there was an episode with OPEC that set
- 00:02:15off an inflation you had a
- 00:02:17recession
- 00:02:19and inflation came down I think from
- 00:02:22about 8 to 3 and then went back up again
- 00:02:25yes and what Bo what's bothered me and
- 00:02:28what I have wanted to say
- 00:02:30you're exactly right it went back up
- 00:02:32again it went back up again and the
- 00:02:34number of
- 00:02:35months um would correlate to the bottom
- 00:02:38being right about now yeah so my
- 00:02:42confidence a year a year and a half ago
- 00:02:43was we're going to have that period
- 00:02:45where we came down again and then we'd
- 00:02:48see and I'm a little worried that the
- 00:02:51FED has declared Victory too early I
- 00:02:55don't have conviction like I had in 21
- 00:02:58that inflation was going going to go up
- 00:03:00that's when the money supply was growing
- 00:03:0240% and all sorts of things were
- 00:03:04happening but I also don't have
- 00:03:07conviction that they've snuffed this
- 00:03:09thing out and won the battle and to cut
- 00:03:1250 basis
- 00:03:13points with credit spreads tight gold at
- 00:03:18new highs equity's roaring no sign of
- 00:03:22weakness um material weakness in the
- 00:03:26economy of course there are some spots
- 00:03:29um that just makes me nervous that this
- 00:03:32thing could turn up again what would
- 00:03:34make you turn up again what would be the
- 00:03:35factors I think what I just said uh
- 00:03:38easing into Financial conditions let's
- 00:03:41say um Trump wins if Trump wins you
- 00:03:45could have animal spirits from the
- 00:03:48business Community who are dying for
- 00:03:51deregulation you could have tariffs
- 00:03:55which are on the margin
- 00:03:57inflationary uh immigration has been a
- 00:03:59great Boon to this country maybe not the
- 00:04:03way it was done but it certainly enabled
- 00:04:05us to have growth without inflation and
- 00:04:07labor materially the last two or three
- 00:04:10years so the combination of animal
- 00:04:13spirits recovery doing better than it is
- 00:04:16I'm just open-minded to it again why is
- 00:04:19it so urgent for the central bank to cut
- 00:04:21given this honestly um I don't take the
- 00:04:26nefarious view that pal is doing it for
- 00:04:29quote unquote political reasons I do
- 00:04:32think he's obsessed with the soft
- 00:04:34landing and I think he's obsessed with
- 00:04:37his legacy and having made the mistake
- 00:04:40he made in 21 and he's being egged on by
- 00:04:42other economists in the press to me the
- 00:04:44fed's job is to avoid the big big
- 00:04:47mistakes yeah like the 70s like the
- 00:04:50great financial crisis like the big
- 00:04:53inflation we just had but all this fine
- 00:04:56tuning and woring about a soft Landing
- 00:04:58that that is not the job of the FED in
- 00:05:01my opinion is to maximize employment for
- 00:05:04the long term not for the next three
- 00:05:06months or the next four months but I
- 00:05:09think the fed's obsession with nailing
- 00:05:12this so-called soft Landing I would
- 00:05:15remind everybody that the reason we're
- 00:05:17having a landing is because they took
- 00:05:20they let inflation go from 2 to %. yeah
- 00:05:23so there was no need for a landing for
- 00:05:2520 years but um I think that's what
- 00:05:28they're obsessed with I don't really I
- 00:05:31don't know how much of a problem is the
- 00:05:33forward guidance it's a huge problem um
- 00:05:36my friend dream grants says they're
- 00:05:38forward guidance dependent not data
- 00:05:41dependent um it's a problem because once
- 00:05:44you do forward guidance you eliminate
- 00:05:46your optionality yeah and I think
- 00:05:49Nikolai you and I being in this business
- 00:05:51we know we have to change our mind when
- 00:05:53we're wrong yeah this fed has
- 00:05:56shown over and over again that they
- 00:05:59think if they change their mind they're
- 00:06:00losing credibility so it makes them have
- 00:06:04their hands tied behind their back I'm
- 00:06:06wrong all the time I think my record is
- 00:06:09mainly because when I'm wrong I changed
- 00:06:12my mind not that I'm always right I'm
- 00:06:14certainly not forward guidance seems to
- 00:06:17tie them into positions where and
- 00:06:19eliminate flexibility they need how big
- 00:06:21a problem is the budget deficit as a
- 00:06:24practitioner it's something I can't be
- 00:06:26obsessed with on a 3 to six Monon basis
- 00:06:30as an American it's something I'm really
- 00:06:32obsessed with because debt to GDP can't
- 00:06:35go up forever and to me we have a
- 00:06:38reckoning but I don't know how the time
- 00:06:41when that's going to take place I will
- 00:06:44say that because the reserve
- 00:06:47currency we've been permitted to engage
- 00:06:50in behavior that say the Brits couldn't
- 00:06:52have behaved in there's a new term I
- 00:06:55have getting LZ trust we haven't been LZ
- 00:06:57trust because we are the reserve
- 00:06:59currency even though if you look at
- 00:07:00everything we're doing it's much more
- 00:07:02radical than the Brits were doing yeah
- 00:07:05um what's that old saying how do you go
- 00:07:07bankrupt slowly and then suddenly
- 00:07:10running deficits with full employment at
- 00:07:12basically at 7% of
- 00:07:14GDP is a recipe that can't last forever
- 00:07:18one of the reasons we haven't paid for
- 00:07:20it is in Co the entire private sector
- 00:07:2380% of individuals refinance their
- 00:07:25mortgages so the average mortgage rate
- 00:07:28is still under 4% even though at the
- 00:07:30margin it got to 8% corporations termed
- 00:07:33out their debt that stuff rolls over in
- 00:07:3625 and 26 if we're going to have a
- 00:07:39problem it's probably more like late 25
- 00:07:42early 26 but you just don't know so and
- 00:07:46what is it that can create this kind of
- 00:07:48trust moment where people suddenly
- 00:07:50change their mind in terms of the price
- 00:07:52they want to have to lend money to it
- 00:07:54could it could be a failed auction it
- 00:07:56could be If the Fed is wrong about
- 00:07:59inflation and it turns back up again
- 00:08:01because they're easing Financial
- 00:08:03conditions into a melt up um if they
- 00:08:06were to have to start increasing
- 00:08:08interest rates again which is why I
- 00:08:10think they should be so cautious about
- 00:08:13their
- 00:08:14optionality um now that they've forward
- 00:08:17guided to a series of cuts that could
- 00:08:20cause it um my best guess would be a
- 00:08:23failed auction but honestly it could be
- 00:08:266 months it could be six years I I just
- 00:08:28don't know so he rat start to go up how
- 00:08:31high can they go well that's a great
- 00:08:33question because right now the 10 year I
- 00:08:36guess it's around 4 and a half it can go
- 00:08:38to nominal GDP so let's say inflation
- 00:08:40went to four 4 and A2 and real growth
- 00:08:44was 2 and a half or three 10 years AG go
- 00:08:46to six or seven I'm not predicting that
- 00:08:49but that would be consistent if things
- 00:08:52if inflation did turn back up again and
- 00:08:55the economy wasn't weakening I think you
- 00:08:57could get there it's interesting that's
- 00:08:59what happened in the 70 the bond market
- 00:09:02didn't really respond until we went back
- 00:09:05up from like 3 to 12 and then it it
- 00:09:07responded in Spades again I'm not
- 00:09:10predicting this but I'm as a
- 00:09:11practitioner I'm very open-minded to it
- 00:09:13and I've got a it's like on my radar
- 00:09:16well you say you make the most money
- 00:09:18from uh from fed mistakes so is this the
- 00:09:20way you are positioned now I'm short
- 00:09:22ponds I'm not like mega short I I
- 00:09:26actually had good timing for once I
- 00:09:28shorted them literally the day the FED
- 00:09:30cut um it's been kind of an easy ride
- 00:09:34since then I should have been much
- 00:09:35bigger now that they move so much I'm a
- 00:09:39little worried about um if anything
- 00:09:42being too big but yeah no that's the way
- 00:09:44I'm positioned if I thought what we are
- 00:09:47talking about was happening and I don't
- 00:09:49see a sign of it yet I'm just
- 00:09:51open-minded to it I would be much bigger
- 00:09:53I'm like
- 00:09:5525% naav short uh 10e equivalent moving
- 00:09:59on to the stock market uh the leadership
- 00:10:01is very narrow it's led by not so many
- 00:10:04stocks just how do you read this narrow
- 00:10:06leadership um it's never been great but
- 00:10:10the leadership's not as narrow as it was
- 00:10:12last April so you're starting to get
- 00:10:15some broadening out the financials are
- 00:10:17doing better it's not great we've never
- 00:10:20had a bare Market start without the
- 00:10:25leadership narrowing and it's narrowing
- 00:10:27enough that you're starting to get
- 00:10:29toward a necessary condition being
- 00:10:31satisfied but it's early but it's it's a
- 00:10:35it's a yellow light it's not a red light
- 00:10:37that's how I read it so how do you think
- 00:10:39the tech sector will develop what kind
- 00:10:42of science are you seeing there the AI
- 00:10:44boom is going unabated Nikolai the I
- 00:10:48think the private sector just sees it as
- 00:10:52an existential threat to their business
- 00:10:54if they don't um spend money on it
- 00:10:57because if they don't spend money on it
- 00:11:00and their competitors do and their
- 00:11:02competitors are right they're going to
- 00:11:04have a big big competitive problem and
- 00:11:06of course the
- 00:11:08hyperscalers they're all in and their
- 00:11:10demand is just continuing so look you've
- 00:11:14got very rich prices in the tech sector
- 00:11:17stuff like apple selling I know 25 or 30
- 00:11:21times earnings it's certainly not
- 00:11:22growing at 25 or 30% but we don't have
- 00:11:26that much exposure to the tech sector
- 00:11:28and we're not short it so not really
- 00:11:29involved cuz but you were very early
- 00:11:32into it yeah what um how do you spot
- 00:11:35these early Trends what is said that you
- 00:11:37look at honestly uh I've got young
- 00:11:42really good analysts here yeah a lot of
- 00:11:45people have a lot of young analysts who
- 00:11:47are who are on top of things and they
- 00:11:49started um we noticed about three or
- 00:11:52four years ago that the kids that go to
- 00:11:54Stanford and MIT the engineers were
- 00:11:57shifting from crypto to AI
- 00:12:00that was the first signed then my my
- 00:12:05young Partners started talking more and
- 00:12:07more about AI uh I asked them how to
- 00:12:10play it they mentioned a company called
- 00:12:14Nvidia which I thought was a gaming
- 00:12:16company I hadn't done work on in a long
- 00:12:19time um I bought a pretty good chunk of
- 00:12:22it and then like a month later chaty PT
- 00:12:25happened it was just total luck I had no
- 00:12:28idea caty p but the AI drum around here
- 00:12:32was big enough and the stock was down I
- 00:12:34think from 400 to 150 or something so
- 00:12:37that's how I got started in it once we
- 00:12:39invest in something like that then we
- 00:12:42really start to dig deeper and then
- 00:12:44there was a whole chain of things we
- 00:12:45knew it would affect power we knew it
- 00:12:48would affect uranium we just went
- 00:12:50through the whole chain and it was a
- 00:12:52pretty easy Trend to spot not not unlike
- 00:12:55um the cloud was the you know these
- 00:12:58things come in waves M but AI the
- 00:13:01question with AI now that I'm wrestling
- 00:13:04with and the reason our exposure is
- 00:13:06really neither long nor short is how to
- 00:13:10play it because we started with pix and
- 00:13:13shovels which is Invidia and to some
- 00:13:16extent um Microsoft but now we're seeing
- 00:13:21just massive amounts of capital being
- 00:13:24spent by these
- 00:13:26modelers and if AI is for real and I
- 00:13:30think it is they're all going to give
- 00:13:32you the same answer so we're going to
- 00:13:33have four or five companies will spent
- 00:13:37masses amounts of capital but I don't
- 00:13:40see it as a win or take all model on the
- 00:13:42other hand I think there applications um
- 00:13:46that I haven't even thought of and
- 00:13:48nobody's thought of they're going to
- 00:13:49spring up I mean who would have thought
- 00:13:51of Uber or Facebook when the internet
- 00:13:54started so we're very bullish on AI
- 00:13:59but we're not bullish currently on
- 00:14:02exactly where we're supposed to be and
- 00:14:04how to play it aggressively not unlike
- 00:14:07the internet in 2201 you could have
- 00:14:10believed in the internet not been
- 00:14:11exposed and then got your exposure on a
- 00:14:14more timely basis or I could just be
- 00:14:16wrong which is wouldn't be that unusual
- 00:14:19but you were also early into the
- 00:14:22anti-obesity drug producers oh that was
- 00:14:24easy I mean I don't know what it's like
- 00:14:27in Norway but in America
- 00:14:30yeah if you go to Disney World
- 00:14:33everything and if you know the American
- 00:14:35psyche if you know an American they got
- 00:14:36a way to lose weight without doing any
- 00:14:38work and uh I I knew the drug worked
- 00:14:42early on just because we were exposed to
- 00:14:45it but I and then when I heard if you
- 00:14:48get off the drug you gain the weight
- 00:14:50back then I knew it was sort of a razor
- 00:14:52blade business cuz people would have to
- 00:14:54say on the drug yeah but you say it's C
- 00:14:56but I mean hey it's not like you're the
- 00:14:57only one who is walking around around in
- 00:14:59Disneyland and looking at these kind of
- 00:15:00things right so but you you actually you
- 00:15:03actually act on your Intuition or your
- 00:15:06all the data that's in front of you I do
- 00:15:08but it's it's you know it's not all
- 00:15:10Brilliance I I I bought Nvidia very well
- 00:15:13but I sold it eight or 900 right when
- 00:15:15the party was really getting going and I
- 00:15:18sold my Lily in the high 700s granted
- 00:15:21had a had a nice profit but yeah I look
- 00:15:25for for big trends I'm not about guy
- 00:15:29that holds for 20 years but I look for
- 00:15:31two to four years stuff and both fit
- 00:15:33into that category and frankly we're
- 00:15:35looking now for AI
- 00:15:37applications that might not have been
- 00:15:39recognized yet I think I'm on the board
- 00:15:41of memal slone ketering have been for
- 00:15:43almost 30 years and the applications in
- 00:15:45cancer are unreal and just FYI the
- 00:15:49memorial slone cing is the leading
- 00:15:50cancer hospital in the world yes and
- 00:15:53they have a lot of money in the
- 00:15:54endowment partly because you are on the
- 00:15:56board or the investment committee well
- 00:15:57they have a lot of money in their D and
- 00:15:59I wouldn't say partly because I'm on the
- 00:16:01board but thank you now um when we last
- 00:16:04met you mentioned the concept of buy
- 00:16:05first analyze later tell me about that
- 00:16:08yeah Soros used to call it invest and
- 00:16:10invest and then investigate I think I
- 00:16:13just gave a classic example I didn't
- 00:16:15know that much about Nvidia I just knew
- 00:16:17that Ai and I had some people here tell
- 00:16:20me how to play it so we bought Invidia
- 00:16:24and then we we were in the process of
- 00:16:26doing a lot more work and then chat GPT
- 00:16:28tap and but I've always had the view
- 00:16:31that markets are smart they're fast and
- 00:16:33they're getting much more so with with
- 00:16:36all the communication and the technology
- 00:16:38we have
- 00:16:39today and that if I hear a concept and I
- 00:16:43like it uh if I wait and spend two or
- 00:16:46three months analyzing it I may miss big
- 00:16:49part of the move and then
- 00:16:50psychologically be paralyzed it's hard
- 00:16:52to buy a stock you're looking at at 100
- 00:16:54it's 160 even if it's going to 400
- 00:16:57somehow your your head is screwed up and
- 00:16:59you're waiting for the pullback so we
- 00:17:01will we will buy something a meaningful
- 00:17:04position but not Earth shaking and then
- 00:17:07really do the work and if I think we
- 00:17:11made a mistake I'll sell it and if I
- 00:17:13don't think we made a mistake We'll add
- 00:17:16to it if if we have to yeah no I I I
- 00:17:20happen to have worked exactly the same
- 00:17:23way uh in my life it it really focuses
- 00:17:26in your your work and your efforts your
- 00:17:29thinking but have you always believed in
- 00:17:31your own pattern recognition yes when I
- 00:17:34started in the business I got promoted
- 00:17:36too early so before I had really learned
- 00:17:40the nuts and bolts of the analysis to
- 00:17:42the extent that I should have I was
- 00:17:44promoted to to a to a leadership
- 00:17:47position and I had to rely a lot on
- 00:17:49charts and I had to rely a lot on
- 00:17:52intuition but I found it's not that hard
- 00:17:55if if you're dealing with a psychical
- 00:17:57company and they're losing money or
- 00:17:59they're not profitable and everybody in
- 00:18:01their industry is shutting capacity down
- 00:18:04it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
- 00:18:06try and envision 18 to 24 months out if
- 00:18:10nobody's add in capacity they may not be
- 00:18:12losing money anymore they might be
- 00:18:13making a lot of money I have found it's
- 00:18:16very important never to invest in the
- 00:18:19present always try and envision the
- 00:18:23situation as you see it in 18 to 24
- 00:18:25months and then see if if you feel
- 00:18:29things would be differently than they
- 00:18:30are now would security prices reflect
- 00:18:33that I think that's probably the biggest
- 00:18:36mistake
- 00:18:37investors make is they invest in the
- 00:18:40present rather than forward looking and
- 00:18:43looking where the Puck's going instead
- 00:18:44of where the puck is yeah now um a few
- 00:18:47people believe in other people's
- 00:18:49gutfield did Soros believe in your
- 00:18:51gutfield or did you have to show him
- 00:18:54analysis Soros and I had a rocky start I
- 00:18:57I I went there I had had
- 00:19:01some uh significant success running
- 00:19:04public funds at
- 00:19:06dfus and he told me I was his successor
- 00:19:09but I don't really think his mind was
- 00:19:12completely made up when I got there and
- 00:19:14and the first 6 months were quite Rocky
- 00:19:17because it wasn't clear who was in
- 00:19:20charge um frankly we're both trading
- 00:19:23badly and I was flying to Pittsburgh cuz
- 00:19:26I still had Duane I was running both and
- 00:19:29um when I got off the airplane I think
- 00:19:32we had payones back then we didn't have
- 00:19:35cell phones and uh the head Trader there
- 00:19:38told me he had told out sold out my bond
- 00:19:40position so I probably had a higher
- 00:19:43opinion of myself at the time that I
- 00:19:44should have I was young and I had always
- 00:19:46been in charge so I was quite upset and
- 00:19:51uh basically
- 00:19:54uh expressed extreme displeasure and he
- 00:19:57said we'll talk about it when you come
- 00:19:59back to New
- 00:20:00York um implied that I I wanted to quit
- 00:20:03and he said that uh maybe there were too
- 00:20:07many cooks in the kitchen and he was
- 00:20:09going to Eastern Europe for four or five
- 00:20:11years he'd be out of touch and then he'd
- 00:20:14find out whether he had been in my hair
- 00:20:17or if I really was incompetent that's
- 00:20:20that's sort of the way he talks the way
- 00:20:22we think except he actually says it and
- 00:20:25luckily for me while while he was gone
- 00:20:28the Bur Wall came down I invested in the
- 00:20:30deut mark but I think it was lucky for
- 00:20:33both of us I went on like the best run
- 00:20:35I've had before or since for like four
- 00:20:37years so he kept seeing the results so I
- 00:20:42think he trusted my intuition only
- 00:20:45because the record started that way do
- 00:20:48you trust the intuition of your
- 00:20:49colleagues now I trust their analysis
- 00:20:52they're they're so much deeper and
- 00:20:55better at analysis than I was
- 00:20:59um but I can see the intuition
- 00:21:02developing that uh I'm I'm probably as
- 00:21:06bullish on the talent the equity talent
- 00:21:09in my firm as I've been in 45 years so I
- 00:21:12guess that's that's an ner of yes but
- 00:21:15partly uh brain partly analytics and
- 00:21:19then partly intuition they're not as
- 00:21:21intuitive as I am because it'll have to
- 00:21:24be I was sort of forced to be intuitive
- 00:21:27because I don't I never acquire their
- 00:21:29analytical skills you mentioned some
- 00:21:31examples of where you had sold um a bit
- 00:21:33early do you do you generally sell early
- 00:21:36no I mean embarrassingly I I did an
- 00:21:39interview on Nvidia I think it was like
- 00:21:41370 or something and I said this is one
- 00:21:43we're probably going to own for a few
- 00:21:45years but I didn't think it was going to
- 00:21:47go to 900 in a year uh and to over a$2
- 00:21:51trillion market cap I think it started
- 00:21:53like 100 billion or 150 billion it was
- 00:21:56something crazy um
- 00:21:59so no I don't necessarily sell early I'm
- 00:22:02a technician so I usually wait for Tops
- 00:22:05um Nvidia had no top I just thought um
- 00:22:10what does that just want to explain what
- 00:22:11does it mean to have a top a top is
- 00:22:14something the rate of change of it's
- 00:22:16going up changes and it tends to flatten
- 00:22:19out for quite some time the trick is in
- 00:22:22the technical world that could end up
- 00:22:24being a bull flag where it just
- 00:22:27Consolidated for a bit and then did a
- 00:22:28new leg or it could be a top where that
- 00:22:33was it that was it and how do you know
- 00:22:34which is which you don't you have an
- 00:22:37opinion and um you express it and
- 00:22:39sometimes you're right and sometimes
- 00:22:41you're wrong with
- 00:22:42Nvidia um there was no top but I just
- 00:22:49I've I've analyzed the semiconductors
- 00:22:51industry not particularly well but since
- 00:22:53the
- 00:22:551970s and it's a cycal industry m and I
- 00:22:58knew Nvidia had staying power and was
- 00:23:01they had 4,000 software Engineers so it
- 00:23:03wasn't just Hardware you know they have
- 00:23:05a Cuda this thing called cuda software
- 00:23:07that they do to to make their gpus but I
- 00:23:10just thought once it went through two
- 00:23:12trillion this is just too much and worst
- 00:23:16case it'll have a big correction I'll
- 00:23:17get another chance and of course I
- 00:23:20didn't get another chance oh you may yes
- 00:23:22I may you think you will uh I don't know
- 00:23:26from this price I assume I will or would
- 00:23:28have bought it back I don't mind buying
- 00:23:30something back higher than I would I
- 00:23:33don't like it but I'm perfectly willing
- 00:23:35to buy something back higher than I sold
- 00:23:36it some people can't get themselves do
- 00:23:39it oh I can I'm the one thing I'm strong
- 00:23:42on is I'm not emotional but um you never
- 00:23:47had a down a no stupid question why is
- 00:23:50that important no good reason I think
- 00:23:52it's it's important because other people
- 00:23:55talk about it and uh my investors loved
- 00:23:58it one ah had of investors because um
- 00:24:00you know they have this stuff in our
- 00:24:02industry you know called risk weighted
- 00:24:04return I'm not big on that but I will
- 00:24:07say it's a stressful job and there's
- 00:24:10less stress if you don't have big draw
- 00:24:12Downs I have had significant draw Downs
- 00:24:15in inner year so part of the down year
- 00:24:18is just luck what does a draw down do to
- 00:24:20you I get uh anxious upset uh you get
- 00:24:25upet even though it's only your money
- 00:24:26yes yeah I'm just
- 00:24:28um I'm a very competitive person even if
- 00:24:31it's just my own money I I wish I wasn't
- 00:24:35but I am and uh it's probably one of the
- 00:24:38reasons my results are as good as they
- 00:24:39are but I prefer myself not to be um
- 00:24:44it's a bit of a sickness but it works
- 00:24:45for me who do you compete against I
- 00:24:47compete against what I would call the
- 00:24:49opportunity set and if there was a great
- 00:24:52opportunity set that year and I missed
- 00:24:55it um I'm disappointed in my myself like
- 00:24:59if I'm up 20 and I think I should have
- 00:25:00been up 50 I'm disappointed in myself if
- 00:25:03the opportunity set was basically to be
- 00:25:06up 10 or 15 and an up 20 I'm thrilled I
- 00:25:09mean the good the good thing about being
- 00:25:10an investor is always a good reason to
- 00:25:12hit yourself in a head right I don't
- 00:25:13know if that's a good thing about our
- 00:25:16business but it's it's probably the bad
- 00:25:18thing about our business and for some
- 00:25:20reason I like to hit myself in the head
- 00:25:22I always measure from the top but you um
- 00:25:26are quick at selling your losers
- 00:25:28what's the key to that if the reason I
- 00:25:31bought a
- 00:25:32stock is no longer the case I don't care
- 00:25:36what I paid for it and if I bought it at
- 00:25:3960 and it's 50 because the markets
- 00:25:42discovered the problem before me I have
- 00:25:46I have no emotion whatsoever um Soros
- 00:25:50was the same way I didn't really learn
- 00:25:52it from him but it was certainly
- 00:25:54reinforced like after a while Nikolai
- 00:25:57you all so develop enough confidence
- 00:26:00that you're not afraid to clean the
- 00:26:02slate and start over cuz you have the
- 00:26:05confidence that you'll be successful
- 00:26:07again and you're not going to sit there
- 00:26:08in a lazy position that you're not that
- 00:26:11sure about anymore just clean house and
- 00:26:14if you've been doing it for decades and
- 00:26:16it's worked you kind of have the
- 00:26:18confidence to take a loss and not worry
- 00:26:21about it too
- 00:26:22much once I'm out I'm out you said you
- 00:26:25don't have feelings what do you what do
- 00:26:27you mean by that did I say don't have
- 00:26:28feelings I have a lot of feelings you
- 00:26:30mean about taking losses yeah just what
- 00:26:34I mean by that is I think one of the
- 00:26:37reasons charts work we have the reason
- 00:26:41there's support and there's um there's
- 00:26:44resistance is the resistance is a bunch
- 00:26:46of people that bought it at 60 and it
- 00:26:48went down and they've been waiting for
- 00:26:49three or four years for it to get back
- 00:26:51to 60 while they could have been in
- 00:26:53something else that was going up the
- 00:26:54whole time um I just don't care
- 00:26:59what I paid for a stock it's absolutely
- 00:27:01irrelevant uh in terms of my investment
- 00:27:04process going forward now this uh
- 00:27:06combination of being on the one hand
- 00:27:08stubborn but other hand being able to
- 00:27:10change your
- 00:27:11mind it's pretty rare I'm told it is
- 00:27:15yeah I told by my friends and other
- 00:27:17investors that
- 00:27:18I'm
- 00:27:20entirely unemotional and
- 00:27:23like yes I am told it's rare is that the
- 00:27:27key to your success you think one of
- 00:27:29them
- 00:27:30I I think I think it's I think it's a
- 00:27:33big part of it I think again um being
- 00:27:38being open-minded and having humility
- 00:27:40the only reason you can change your mind
- 00:27:43is if you're not arrogant about a
- 00:27:46position has mattered I think I had some
- 00:27:50great mentors the one in Pittsburgh and
- 00:27:52then Soros in terms of sizing and I
- 00:27:55think I learned some lessons very early
- 00:27:57on uh
- 00:28:00concentration not to be afraid of
- 00:28:02concentration that that's a big reason
- 00:28:04for my success and probably the other
- 00:28:07big reason was sort of self-taught
- 00:28:10is being willing to go into other asset
- 00:28:13categories and if you're going to
- 00:28:15concentrate it's better to have five
- 00:28:18buckets to plan than to plan one so I
- 00:28:20was brought up in the equity Market but
- 00:28:23sometimes the risk reward in the equity
- 00:28:25Market is not that clear when it
- 00:28:27actually is clear clearing the bond
- 00:28:28market or the currency
- 00:28:30markets and it's a coincidence you asked
- 00:28:33about never h a down year part of it is
- 00:28:36the most action in bonds and currencies
- 00:28:39tends to happen in bare markets and
- 00:28:41Equity markets so you can put the put
- 00:28:44the equities in the drawer for a while
- 00:28:47and just concentrate in those markets I
- 00:28:49think that's been a huge part of my
- 00:28:51successes is it gives you the discipline
- 00:28:55not to play in areas that you don't have
- 00:28:56a lot of conviction in because if you
- 00:28:58got credit to play in if you got
- 00:29:01Commodities to play in currencies or
- 00:29:03bonds you can usually find something
- 00:29:06that you think there's a great risk
- 00:29:08award in it's also they tend to be more
- 00:29:10liquid than Equity markets so to our
- 00:29:13earlier conversation you can change your
- 00:29:15mind when you're wrong what do you learn
- 00:29:17about siing from Source I don't know
- 00:29:20whether you know about do you know
- 00:29:21baseball at all or would your listen
- 00:29:23about I don't play it but uh when I went
- 00:29:25to Soros I thought I would learn what
- 00:29:28would make de Mark go up in the end go
- 00:29:30up and modestly I found I was better at
- 00:29:32that than him um in baseball terms I
- 00:29:37have a I had a very high batting average
- 00:29:40he had a much higher slugging percentage
- 00:29:43um so what I learned from
- 00:29:45Soros is when you have
- 00:29:48conviction you should bet really big I
- 00:29:51know your listeners have probably heard
- 00:29:53it before but I but probably the best
- 00:29:55illustration is the pound yeah so what
- 00:29:58happened so let's go back so you are in
- 00:29:59the office what's happening in the UK so
- 00:30:02I'm in the office in New York and Scott
- 00:30:06bessent um who was a partner of mine in
- 00:30:10Europe mainly trade the European area
- 00:30:12he's in London and he tells me the
- 00:30:15London housing market is in big trouble
- 00:30:17and the British economy is in trouble
- 00:30:21because like most Anglo sex and
- 00:30:23economies at the time it's very much
- 00:30:24driven by housing and so forth Just P it
- 00:30:28out a bit so your office are you like
- 00:30:29overlooking Central Park
- 00:30:33uh I'm not overlooking Central Park but
- 00:30:36I'm near it I I'm in the Soros office on
- 00:30:3832nd Floor but it's okay it's not a
- 00:30:41corner office it's nothing big fail see
- 00:30:43and the UK economy is going down the
- 00:30:45toilet we think the U econom is going
- 00:30:48down but I need to take you back
- 00:30:50about 3 years when the Berlin Wall cam
- 00:30:54comes down it'll probably save me my job
- 00:30:56cuz I probably would have been fir at
- 00:30:58Soros 6 months after he went to Eastern
- 00:31:01Europe had the Berlin wallnut come down
- 00:31:04but um the de Mark went down for two
- 00:31:07days dramatically because the theory in
- 00:31:11the market was the osmark which was the
- 00:31:13East German currency was going to
- 00:31:15pollute the deut Mark I knew German
- 00:31:18history and knew they were obsessed with
- 00:31:20inflation because the viar Republic and
- 00:31:22then that led to Hitler and so forth and
- 00:31:24so on so I knew the Germans were
- 00:31:26absolutely obsessed with inflation I
- 00:31:29knew that all bringing all these East
- 00:31:31Germans into the labor Supply was going
- 00:31:34to cause a boom in the economy so we
- 00:31:37were very bullish on the overall German
- 00:31:41economy and we were very
- 00:31:43convinced that there is no way the
- 00:31:46bundes bank would let inflation so we're
- 00:31:48very convinced it would be accompanied
- 00:31:49by tight monetary policy so we had
- 00:31:53shorted the Italian L
- 00:31:56successfully um during that per period
- 00:31:58so when the when Scott called me we were
- 00:32:02already sort of on this deark journey
- 00:32:05we've been for a few
- 00:32:06years and the British econom is going
- 00:32:09down and new currencies are linked so it
- 00:32:11was a peg right it was a peg so um I
- 00:32:15called and asked how much it would cost
- 00:32:18me to Short the pound versus the deut
- 00:32:21mark for six months it was a half a
- 00:32:23percent I think the fund was around 7
- 00:32:26and a half billion at the time Quantum
- 00:32:29fund and I decided to do an invest and
- 00:32:33then investigate position so I did a
- 00:32:35billion and a half or like 20 25% of the
- 00:32:39fund short the pound long the deut mark
- 00:32:42figuring I'd probably lose a half per
- 00:32:44because it's a Peg and it won't break
- 00:32:46within 6 months but I wanted the
- 00:32:48position on Fast Forward probably about
- 00:32:51five or six weeks the day I believe was
- 00:32:54September 15th not that I would remember
- 00:32:57um
- 00:32:58I read the financial times and the head
- 00:33:01of the bunis
- 00:33:03bank now I'm sure I'm age but I'm pretty
- 00:33:05sure it was te Meer has written an
- 00:33:09editorial in the financial times
- 00:33:12basically in more proper language but
- 00:33:15he's basically saying that the deark and
- 00:33:17the pound should no longer be linked so
- 00:33:20I decide to take Duan and the quantum
- 00:33:24fund to 100% long the deark
- 00:33:28short the pound because it's still a
- 00:33:30half a perc unbelievably now you're
- 00:33:32going to hear vintage Soros so he
- 00:33:35happens to be in New York at the time
- 00:33:38which he wasn't always I go into his
- 00:33:40office and I explain to
- 00:33:44him why I'm going to
- 00:33:47100% And he had a rather large personal
- 00:33:50account that's how we kept each other
- 00:33:52out of each other's hair he traded that
- 00:33:54and you know it was 90 90 95% overlap
- 00:33:58told him why I was doing this and he had
- 00:34:01this um unpleasant puzzled look on his
- 00:34:04face when I'm telling him my thesis that
- 00:34:06this one economy is booming and they
- 00:34:08need higher rates this other economy is
- 00:34:10falling apart they need lower rates
- 00:34:12that's these two currencies shouldn't be
- 00:34:15linked and I'm thinking what does he not
- 00:34:18understand about this because this guy
- 00:34:20pretty much understood
- 00:34:22everything and he says uh look this is
- 00:34:25uh this is a one-way bet they come along
- 00:34:29very very rarely it's ridiculous doing
- 00:34:32100% we should put 200% of the fund in
- 00:34:35this
- 00:34:36trade so there you have it so that means
- 00:34:38that you borrow money in the bank and
- 00:34:41double up yeah on a $7.5 billion fund he
- 00:34:45thought we should have $15
- 00:34:47billion short the pound long the
- 00:34:51deark um it turns out we never got there
- 00:34:56but it shows the way the man thinks I
- 00:34:58saw it over and over again because you
- 00:35:00once you were trading the thing happened
- 00:35:03yeah unfortunately we had a we had a
- 00:35:05pretty strong reputation and when I
- 00:35:08started selling it that night I noticed
- 00:35:11a lot of other hedge funds started
- 00:35:13selling at the gossip community and the
- 00:35:16currency markets and by midnight to 1:00
- 00:35:19the Fords had blown out they'd started
- 00:35:21they at a half a percent they were like
- 00:35:236 or 7% and it basically wasn't trading
- 00:35:26after 1:00 in the morning
- 00:35:28then the British raised rates I think
- 00:35:31from 6 to 9 to try and stop the bleeding
- 00:35:34and then they went to 12 I knew it was
- 00:35:36over but the forward to rout so much
- 00:35:38didn't matter and it was it was done by
- 00:35:40noon the next day and you were sitting
- 00:35:42at your desk looking at the royter
- 00:35:44screen yes or whatever the screen at the
- 00:35:46time was we only got 7 and a half
- 00:35:50billion done ironically well I have to
- 00:35:53had it not been for Soros I probably
- 00:35:54would have not got to the 7 and a half
- 00:35:56cuz you know intending to do 15 I was in
- 00:35:59a bigger hurry so what did you feel when
- 00:36:02when he broke there was a lot of
- 00:36:04adrenaline um it was exciting I didn't
- 00:36:06feel bad because I thought the British
- 00:36:09economy needed it I was gratified years
- 00:36:11later when they changed it from black
- 00:36:13Wednesday to White Wednesday then I went
- 00:36:15into action after it broke because the
- 00:36:18guilts were down two points which I
- 00:36:21thought was
- 00:36:22ridiculous British needed lower rates
- 00:36:24there's some theory in the Academia that
- 00:36:27if you have a weak currency your
- 00:36:29interest rates have to go up so I bought
- 00:36:30guilts I bought British stocks there was
- 00:36:33a whole because what happened was that
- 00:36:35the currency depreciated and it was good
- 00:36:37for exports right so the stocks went up
- 00:36:38afterwards the stocks went up the guilts
- 00:36:41went up because they needed lower rates
- 00:36:43and you know they'd been held
- 00:36:45artificially high so there was all kinds
- 00:36:47of other stuff I did around it uh which
- 00:36:51is kind of the way I trade you get a
- 00:36:54theme and then you look at the
- 00:36:56concentric circles or the or The
- 00:36:57Dominoes that fall because of a
- 00:37:00theme and but the point was with Soros
- 00:37:04if he really believe something the
- 00:37:07position could be never be big enough
- 00:37:09yeah particularly if it's in a liquid
- 00:37:11market and I learned from him I like to
- 00:37:15play the turn maybe my ego in in a in a
- 00:37:19big turn in something he was perfectly
- 00:37:21happy to play from the third to the
- 00:37:23sixth inning if we go back to baseball
- 00:37:25terms of it's a nine inning game he was
- 00:37:27perfectly happy to play the third to
- 00:37:29sixth inning when there was more
- 00:37:30certainty on much greater leverage he
- 00:37:33had more courage than I did in terms of
- 00:37:36sizing positions I don't think it
- 00:37:38totally rubbed off on me but it
- 00:37:40certainly helped and it it was a huge
- 00:37:42learning experience I think the major
- 00:37:45thing I learned with him is it's not
- 00:37:47whether you're right or wrong it's how
- 00:37:48much you make when you're right and how
- 00:37:49much you lose when you're wrong and
- 00:37:51that's what he was probably as good as
- 00:37:53anybody who's ever been at Stan um many
- 00:37:56people have heard about the pound but um
- 00:37:59not many people know that you also did
- 00:38:02the Swedish Groner yes um my memory's a
- 00:38:06little
- 00:38:07less clear on that one as to the
- 00:38:11reasoning but it was just
- 00:38:13another another victim of the deark yeah
- 00:38:16um I assume there was some kind of
- 00:38:19Divergence between the two economies and
- 00:38:21and there was a peg that I thought was
- 00:38:24inappropriate and it turned out yeah
- 00:38:26that worked out so you took that Peg too
- 00:38:29but you took another Peg too because I
- 00:38:31thought you were also involved with the
- 00:38:32tibot yeah the tibot was easy they they
- 00:38:36um but but nobody knows about this right
- 00:38:39no I think um Sebastian Malby wrote a
- 00:38:42book called more money than God there's
- 00:38:44a whole chapter on the tibot that was
- 00:38:46not on the Swedish croner no the Swedish
- 00:38:48croner no no I prefer nobody knew any of
- 00:38:51this stuff but well we need to get it
- 00:38:53right for the history books I'm happy to
- 00:38:54talk about it 25 years later any trades
- 00:38:57you regret not making oh
- 00:39:00there's there's trades I regret not
- 00:39:02making um constantly I'd say one of the
- 00:39:06biggest mistakes I made was having
- 00:39:09predicted the inflation really early and
- 00:39:12feeling so strongly about it I wrote a
- 00:39:15piece in the Wall Street Journal with my
- 00:39:16partner Christian broa in the spring of
- 00:39:1921 I had a mass of short for me in two
- 00:39:24years um sort of like we just talked
- 00:39:28about with the pound it was a one-way
- 00:39:30bet they were 15 basis points and I was
- 00:39:33so measured by where they'd win where
- 00:39:37they'd been I took most of them off at
- 00:39:40like 150 basis points it seemed like a
- 00:39:42great win from 15 to basis point to 150
- 00:39:46but as you know they went to 500 I
- 00:39:49regret deeply not holding that position
- 00:39:52there's probably 30 others but I prefer
- 00:39:54to forget my mistakes do you think
- 00:39:57machines can take the place of humans
- 00:39:59when it comes to investing no I don't
- 00:40:02but I think they can work um as a CO
- 00:40:07co-pilot and the combination can beat
- 00:40:10anything a mere human could be I'm lucky
- 00:40:13enough to have known Gary caspro for a
- 00:40:16long time I'm co-founder of the casprov
- 00:40:19chess
- 00:40:21Foundation um for no good reason I I I
- 00:40:24can hardly play chess my 9-year-old
- 00:40:26daughter was beating me that's how I
- 00:40:28started with Gary but um he was probably
- 00:40:31one of the first guys to use machines to
- 00:40:34train himself and work with them I could
- 00:40:37see the same thing happening with money
- 00:40:39management so I don't think the pure
- 00:40:42machines they'll make money because they
- 00:40:44have a disciplined process and there's
- 00:40:46math but I think if you could find an
- 00:40:49intuitive investor who's using Ai and
- 00:40:53other things to supplement I think that
- 00:40:56would probably be the top investor in
- 00:40:59the world not a machine now you took um
- 00:41:02sabatical in 200000 yeah what was the
- 00:41:05reason behind
- 00:41:07that it's a it's a painful but really
- 00:41:10fun story um it really it really
- 00:41:15starts in
- 00:41:181998 well no it starts in the spring of
- 00:41:211999 I shorted I think it was 11 or 12
- 00:41:25internet stocks not the leaders like aoi
- 00:41:29or Yahoo but the also rans and I I
- 00:41:33believe the position was like $200
- 00:41:36million and in like four
- 00:41:39weeks I had lost like $600 million so it
- 00:41:43was the first time I'd ever had a big
- 00:41:46draw down I was down like 16 or
- 00:41:507% in the spring of 99 I then pivoted
- 00:41:55and realized that green span e because
- 00:41:57of the agent financial crisis while our
- 00:42:00economy was strong and we had the
- 00:42:01internet and all this behind it I went
- 00:42:04out and hired um a couple of young
- 00:42:07managers to buy tech stocks that I
- 00:42:10didn't know how to spell they had their
- 00:42:11own little accounts and like I would
- 00:42:13plow in on top of their
- 00:42:15positions and we ended up the year I
- 00:42:19think something like 42 net or something
- 00:42:22after being in this deole because you
- 00:42:25know I rode this crazy n sck wave in 99
- 00:42:29so then uh in January I just said this
- 00:42:34is ridiculous and um I sold out all my
- 00:42:38tech Holdings like I can't remember it
- 00:42:41was like they had grown to like $
- 00:42:43billion dollar or it was it was enormous
- 00:42:45for that period of time and I actually
- 00:42:47went and told Soros why I had sold them
- 00:42:50out and next thing that happens the two
- 00:42:54little satellites inside they don't sell
- 00:42:57out they're gamblers I don't really care
- 00:43:00cuz quantum's huge and they're this
- 00:43:01little thing they're not going to affect
- 00:43:03the performance that much but Nikolai
- 00:43:05they're making like four to 5% a day I
- 00:43:09mean the market is still roaring going
- 00:43:11into March and I'm uh I'm watching this
- 00:43:15and I'm
- 00:43:16getting really annoyed with myself that
- 00:43:19I'm not I'm not still in this trade and
- 00:43:21then uh around early March I can't take
- 00:43:25it anymore and I told you earlier I'm
- 00:43:28not emotional this was this was a real
- 00:43:32emotional really dumb move um I buy
- 00:43:36everything
- 00:43:37back I think I missed the top by about
- 00:43:40an
- 00:43:41hour so I buy back all these tech
- 00:43:45stocks and within a week I know I'm dead
- 00:43:49and Quantum goes from like up 14% to up
- 00:43:521% in a
- 00:43:54week and I go in and I now I've already
- 00:43:57been through the trauma of the spring
- 00:43:59before I recovered from it but it it had
- 00:44:02a big effect on me the the stress I had
- 00:44:05young kids you know and it's like a
- 00:44:09repeat of the year before so I go into
- 00:44:12Soros and I tell them two things a I'm
- 00:44:16getting out of all this stuff B uh I'm
- 00:44:21quitting um we can't tell anybody cuz I
- 00:44:24got I got to liquidate this portfolio
- 00:44:26but the NASDAQ is in the beginning wave
- 00:44:30of a Down 90% move and you can't get out
- 00:44:32so by the time I get out takes a few
- 00:44:35weeks the fund is down like
- 00:44:38177% and duain is down
- 00:44:41177% and uh I'm just exhausted I've been
- 00:44:44running this high-profile fund for 12
- 00:44:47years so I sell everything out
- 00:44:50everything of
- 00:44:52duaine send my investors a letter and
- 00:44:55say uh I'm going on a sabatical I don't
- 00:44:59know whether I'm coming back or not you
- 00:45:02can take all your money out but if you
- 00:45:04take your money out if I decide to come
- 00:45:06back I can't guarantee I'll let you back
- 00:45:09in I think I had like 200 clients one of
- 00:45:12them pulled their money I remember who
- 00:45:14it was but they'll remain anonymous for
- 00:45:17now
- 00:45:18so I I shut everything down I go to
- 00:45:23Africa with my wife and kids and the
- 00:45:26best thing I did is during the summer I
- 00:45:28refused to expose myself in any way to
- 00:45:32something that would tell me where the
- 00:45:34markets were so I'm not allowed to watch
- 00:45:37TV I'm not allowed to see the Wall
- 00:45:39Street Journal prices nothing so I come
- 00:45:42back in labor day I think my wife
- 00:45:45couldn't have handled me being around uh
- 00:45:48once the kids go back to
- 00:45:50school uh sort of humor maybe not uh
- 00:45:55so I come back and it's remarkable
- 00:45:58because the S&P has rallied back almost
- 00:46:02to the high the nasdaq's retrace about
- 00:46:0585% of the decline but the dollar is up
- 00:46:09interest rates are up and oil is up
- 00:46:12three death nails for markets if you
- 00:46:15look at history so I then start calling
- 00:46:18all my clients who are basically small
- 00:46:20businessmen they're not fancy
- 00:46:22institutions and all their
- 00:46:25businesses are terrible
- 00:46:27so then I call Ed Heyman and I say he
- 00:46:30Equity strategists microeconomist yeah
- 00:46:33he's probably was the number one
- 00:46:35institutional guy whatever that rating
- 00:46:37Institutional Investor
- 00:46:39Economist and um I say this is very odd
- 00:46:44and I've been out of touch dollars up
- 00:46:46blah blah blah blah and uh two days
- 00:46:50later in his daily missive he has
- 00:46:53regression analysis and it says um it's
- 00:46:5750% I think currency 25% oil and 25%
- 00:47:01interest rates and it looks one year
- 00:47:05forward and it predicts earnings and
- 00:47:09it's predicting that earnings are going
- 00:47:11to decline 36% the next year and the
- 00:47:15Wall Street consensuses are going to go
- 00:47:17up 18% so combination of that listening
- 00:47:21to my clients the fact that Greenspan
- 00:47:24got a tightening directive on which I
- 00:47:25think is inappropriate
- 00:47:28I start buying all these
- 00:47:30treasuries and the market doesn't go my
- 00:47:32way but all the information keeps going
- 00:47:34so I keep buying more and more and more
- 00:47:36and more so now I have a 350% tenure
- 00:47:42equivalent in the fund and then I get
- 00:47:45lucky with the gore Bush
- 00:47:48Fiasco economy falls apart I end up
- 00:47:51making 40% in the fourth quarter so I
- 00:47:55had I had written the year off I I when
- 00:47:57I came back I'm down 18 I assume okay at
- 00:48:00least I got don't have to worry about
- 00:48:02this anymore i' finally going to have it
- 00:48:04down year and it's like the best quarter
- 00:48:07I ever had and to this day if I had
- 00:48:10stayed managing money I think I'd been
- 00:48:13tied of knots and there's no way I would
- 00:48:15make that trade it was the fact that I
- 00:48:16was a raid for four months had a clean
- 00:48:20slate had a clear head and just looked
- 00:48:22at the New
- 00:48:23Evidence so it was a very very very
- 00:48:27horrible beginning and a very lucky
- 00:48:30ending now you don't take um four months
- 00:48:33off very often uh you work very hard
- 00:48:35when do you wake up in the morning 4 4
- 00:48:37in the morning yeah what do you do uh I
- 00:48:40you have you have an an office at home
- 00:48:42right yeah yeah I immediately go to the
- 00:48:44Bloomberg and 4:00 you do you make a cup
- 00:48:46of coffee before you go to Bloomberg or
- 00:48:47straight to Bloomberg yes no yeah I make
- 00:48:50a cup of coffee I go up I don't shower
- 00:48:52yet check all the markets read the
- 00:48:55journal
- 00:48:57skim the financial times skim the New
- 00:48:59York Times check like all the emails
- 00:49:02overnight when I say check I mean skim
- 00:49:04them for the important ones then it's
- 00:49:07probably uh 5:15 or 5:30 take a shower
- 00:49:11go to work start all over again when you
- 00:49:13go to bed uh usually around 8:30 qu or 9
- 00:49:16as soon as I see Japan what's happening
- 00:49:19you basically live according to
- 00:49:20financial markets yes uh my
- 00:49:22mother-in-law said a long time ago I'm
- 00:49:24an idiot savant she thought she was
- 00:49:26joking but she's correct it's the only
- 00:49:29thing I'm really good at I really enjoy
- 00:49:31it keeps me young I'm dealing with
- 00:49:33brilliant young people here as analysts
- 00:49:35but also I forc to read the newspaper
- 00:49:38and forc to learn about these waves and
- 00:49:41uh keeps me stimulated I love it now you
- 00:49:44are 71 right yes and you will continue
- 00:49:47until you until you die you think
- 00:49:51yes hopefully it won't be
- 00:49:55tonight no I think probably not I do um
- 00:49:59s last thing we got 10 thousands of
- 00:50:00young people here now they want to be
- 00:50:03like you make a lot of money be
- 00:50:05successful in financial markets what
- 00:50:06should they be doing how should they
- 00:50:09enter what what should they think about
- 00:50:11first of all if they're going in it for
- 00:50:14the money they should go elsewhere yeah
- 00:50:17there's too many people in the business
- 00:50:19like me that just love the game and the
- 00:50:21passion for reasons I just
- 00:50:24articulated and they're not going to be
- 00:50:26to out work the people that are
- 00:50:28passionate in the game and it's not a
- 00:50:31fun game if you're losing it's horrible
- 00:50:33I
- 00:50:34just told you and the how I respond to
- 00:50:37draw Downs so but if they have a passion
- 00:50:40for it if I was a young person I would
- 00:50:42not get an MBA I'd go find a mentor and
- 00:50:47if they didn't want me I would just
- 00:50:49relentlessly bug the hell out of them
- 00:50:50which a couple of have done with me
- 00:50:53until they finally accepted me to go and
- 00:50:56work for them learn what I could from
- 00:50:58them if they still like the business
- 00:51:00just keep trying to grow your knowledge
- 00:51:02base I would say an analyst skill set in
- 00:51:06our business is completely different
- 00:51:08than a portfolio manager skill set once
- 00:51:11in a while you'll get an overlap but I
- 00:51:15would be careful if they really love the
- 00:51:17the analyst part which is where we all
- 00:51:19start of thinking they have to become a
- 00:51:22portfolio manager I've seen it ruin
- 00:51:25people's lives who weren't built for
- 00:51:27trigger pulling so they should be
- 00:51:28open-minded I got in the business
- 00:51:31because I wanted intellectual
- 00:51:32stimulation and you're going to get
- 00:51:34plenty in either one but that would be
- 00:51:37that would be my advice to them and be
- 00:51:40open-minded stand this been a an epic
- 00:51:44conversation thanks Nikolai I probably
- 00:51:47said more than I should have you said
- 00:51:48exact we get in too much trouble thank
- 00:51:51you
- 00:51:52[Music]
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