Harvard Expert on How to Navigate Difficult Conversations | Sheila Heen
摘要
TLDRThe discussion centers around effectively managing difficult conversations, particularly in the current politically charged climate of 2024. Sheila Heen, Deputy Director of the Harvard Negotiation Project, highlights how crucial it is to approach these conversations correctly. The conversation underscores that challenges arise not only from differences in opinion, values, or background but also due to identity concerns, emotional reactions, and trust issues. The public discourse is strained due to amplified, often inaccurate perceptions fueled by social media. Heen suggests adopting a framework of understanding over judgment, emphasizing curiosity, and actively engaging in dialogue rather than confrontation. Recognizing shared values and fostering healthy communication can mitigate polarization. Additionally, the evolving narrative of a more pluralistic society poses both challenges and opportunities for deeper engagement and truth-seeking. The conversation concludes on the need for communities to embrace diversity and engage in thoughtful, open conversations to strengthen societal bonds.
心得
- 🤝 Approach difficult conversations with the right framework to manage them skillfully.
- 🗣️ Emphasize understanding and curiosity over judgment.
- 🌐 Social media can amplify and distort perceptions, affecting dialogue.
- 📚 Difficult conversations are often not about facts but about trust and interpretation.
- 👥 National polarization is more perceived than real, with 87% of people in the middle of the spectrum.
- 🧠 Recognize that identity and emotions influence how we handle conflicts.
- 🌍 Embrace pluralism as a chance for deeper engagement.
- 🔄 Shared responsibility and understanding can foster healthier community dialogue.
- 💬 Free expression and maintaining a conducive learning environment must be balanced on campuses.
- 🤔 Unpack feelings, identity, and facts to navigate complex issues.
时间轴
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
Discusses the pervasive anxiety and avoidance surrounding difficult conversations, highlighting how Sheila Heen's book provides a structured approach to manage heated discussions effectively.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Explores why certain individuals navigate difficult conversations more successfully, noting a societal shift fueled by social media's emphasis on extreme narratives leading to 'outrage culture'.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Heen elaborates on the dual nature of social media fostering connection and division, emphasizing the critical role of relationship context in interpreting shared information.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Describes the difficulty in arguing about facts within fragmented media environments, proposing that trust in information sources heavily influences perceived facts rather than the facts themselves.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Introduces the 'ladder of inference' model to explain disparate perceptions and conclusions, underlining the importance of understanding different interpretations before forming final judgments.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
Explains the emotional complexities tied to difficult conversations, notably the intertwining of identity perceptions with emotions and how that impacts dialogue.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Discusses the heightened sensitivity and perceived existential threats in identity, noting the mismatch between perceived polarization and actual shared middle-ground stances.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Highlights the division in narrative and information sources, with a call for increased curiosity and understanding amidst diverse perspectives to foster more constructive conversations.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:53
Reflects on the challenges institutions face in maintaining open dialogues amidst conflicting narratives, suggesting that shared responsibility in communication can bridge understanding.
思维导图
视频问答
Who is Sheila Heen?
She is the Deputy Director of the Harvard Negotiation Project and co-author of "Difficult Conversations."
What is a key factor in managing difficult conversations?
Approaching conversations with the right framework and focusing on understanding rather than judgment.
How has social media impacted difficult conversations?
Social media often amplifies extreme views, distorting perceptions, and making nuanced dialogue challenging.
Are people as polarized as they seem?
No, most people actually fall in the middle of the political spectrum, but perceive greater polarization due to amplified discourse.
What influences how we handle conflicts?
Underlying identity concerns, emotions, and trust issues significantly shape conflict management.
How can communities manage difficult conversations?
By recognizing shared values, fostering understanding, and encouraging open dialogue.
Why are facts often not central in difficult conversations?
Conversations are more about trust and how information is interpreted than about objective facts.
What challenge does pluralism pose in discussions?
It requires engaging with and understanding a wider array of diverse perspectives and narratives.
查看更多视频摘要
- 00:00:00difficult conversations can be fraught
- 00:00:02with anxiety anger and
- 00:00:05awkwardness that's why so many of us
- 00:00:07just avoid them alt together especially
- 00:00:09in an election year like
- 00:00:112024 but our guest today says that with
- 00:00:14the right framework we can handle even
- 00:00:17the most heated exchanges sheilah Heen
- 00:00:20is the deputy director of the Harvard
- 00:00:22negotiation project at Harvard Law
- 00:00:24School and is one of the co-authors of
- 00:00:26the book difficult conversations how to
- 00:00:30discuss what matters
- 00:00:36most Sheila welcome thank you so much
- 00:00:39for having me so Sheila I I must say
- 00:00:43right at the onset thank you for this
- 00:00:45book um I have as a pastor used it as a
- 00:00:50framework in marriage counseling uh in
- 00:00:54leadership of committees and now
- 00:00:57presently in my work I use it in spaces
- 00:01:01where difficult conversations uh
- 00:01:04frequently occur across um profound
- 00:01:09ideological uh opposition and it has
- 00:01:12proven its worth over and over again
- 00:01:15this is like the user end experience but
- 00:01:19I want to jump back and and and I want
- 00:01:21to explore a little bit could you just
- 00:01:23say a word of why you even wrote the
- 00:01:26book well I was just um appreciating
- 00:01:29your your observation about the ways in
- 00:01:32which difficult
- 00:01:33conversations are rif common in in every
- 00:01:39area of human endeavor and I think
- 00:01:42that's part of what prompted us to write
- 00:01:45the book um is that part of being
- 00:01:49human and being in relationship with
- 00:01:51each other is about how we handle our
- 00:01:55differences um and those can be
- 00:01:57differences in uh you know back ground
- 00:02:00culture and beliefs and um
- 00:02:05values and opinions you know are we
- 00:02:08going to paint the house yellow or are
- 00:02:10we going to paint the house blue so it
- 00:02:13from the most mundane to the most
- 00:02:15fundamental um part of the challenge and
- 00:02:19the opportunity I think for growth for
- 00:02:23each of us as human beings um and
- 00:02:26spiritually is in interacting in that
- 00:02:30space between
- 00:02:32us so it's a human reality and of course
- 00:02:36in the various spheres that you've just
- 00:02:37described and perennially we're going to
- 00:02:39be coming back to it um but surely there
- 00:02:43are times where people do this better
- 00:02:46and worse and what have you noticed I
- 00:02:49mean this book has been out since what
- 00:02:521999 early form years 25 years and we've
- 00:02:55got it all figured out don't you think
- 00:02:57exactly um just from your your Vantage
- 00:03:00Point have have people gotten better
- 00:03:04gotten worse is it is it different over
- 00:03:07the course of the 25 years um yes yes
- 00:03:10and yes people have gotten better people
- 00:03:13have got worse and um it is different
- 00:03:16and and I think so maybe to address each
- 00:03:19of those I think I have seen myself and
- 00:03:24I've seen the students and leaders and
- 00:03:27um humans that I alongside um or with
- 00:03:32really change the quality of the
- 00:03:35conversations that they're having um and
- 00:03:37really grow
- 00:03:39into um better Leaders with
- 00:03:44more openness and more confidence which
- 00:03:48means less anxiety about tackling the
- 00:03:51conversations that matter most and
- 00:03:53that's incredibly rewarding to
- 00:03:56see um have we gotten worse well yes
- 00:03:59partly because everybody on Earth has
- 00:04:01been handed a
- 00:04:02megaphone where we can shout into the
- 00:04:05void where we're not really in true
- 00:04:08relationship with each other although
- 00:04:10we're part of a global
- 00:04:12community and um and that's not a great
- 00:04:17place to have nuanced actual dialogue
- 00:04:21and so it's
- 00:04:24disconnected sometimes shouting
- 00:04:26monologue um in ways that can raise the
- 00:04:29temperature
- 00:04:30you know and then of course what gets
- 00:04:32reposted retweeted Etc are the things
- 00:04:35that um are sometimes described as outr
- 00:04:39outrage culture um the more extreme you
- 00:04:42are the more likely someone will retweet
- 00:04:45it either because they're saying yeah
- 00:04:47exactly or they're saying can you
- 00:04:49believe this it's ridiculous so I think
- 00:04:53that that public I'm going to put it in
- 00:04:56quotes
- 00:04:57discourse has actually raised the
- 00:05:00temperature and introduced
- 00:05:04stress um that I think wasn't there in
- 00:05:07the same way before so in that way also
- 00:05:11it is
- 00:05:12different yeah so there's so much
- 00:05:16promise in social media ways in which
- 00:05:18people you know reconnected with high
- 00:05:20school friends or during the pandemic
- 00:05:22were able to stay together as a pastor
- 00:05:25I've witnessed ways in which um elderly
- 00:05:29or those who are unable to attend church
- 00:05:32just regularly not even in a pandemic
- 00:05:34all of a sudden in the pandemic
- 00:05:36discovered that their church has got
- 00:05:38really good at giving them access so
- 00:05:41it's so promising on the one side but
- 00:05:44what you're describing is that promise
- 00:05:47comes with some Peril right that that we
- 00:05:49we're connected in one way but that's
- 00:05:50not really the same thing as
- 00:05:53relationships dra draw that out what
- 00:05:55what are the implications of that yeah
- 00:05:57well I appreciate you reminding me um of
- 00:06:01the ways in which social media can be a
- 00:06:04tool a Channel of communication that
- 00:06:07actually can help connect and reconnect
- 00:06:10us um in genuine Community relationship
- 00:06:15so as long as there is relationship
- 00:06:17sitting alongside well then it's just a
- 00:06:19channel through which whether it's
- 00:06:21picking up the phone or tuning into the
- 00:06:23service
- 00:06:25um that's been true for a long time and
- 00:06:30this is just the latest form of
- 00:06:32it and maybe it's
- 00:06:35when it is disconnected from human
- 00:06:39relationship that's more
- 00:06:42multifaceted um where it starts to have
- 00:06:45some corrosive effects you know the
- 00:06:47algorithms also mean and the the
- 00:06:50splitting of the news media also mean
- 00:06:52that we have very different sources of
- 00:06:55information so one of the things that we
- 00:06:58often say is that difficult
- 00:07:00conversations are rarely about
- 00:07:03facts they're usually
- 00:07:05about what we have access to in terms of
- 00:07:08information or how we interpret it or
- 00:07:10what judgments we make um about it or
- 00:07:13what values that might be different um
- 00:07:16in terms of how we understand those but
- 00:07:19that leads people to say well okay but
- 00:07:21what about alternative facts um what
- 00:07:25about when we are arguing about the
- 00:07:27facts and in that case I would say I'm
- 00:07:30not sure we're arguing about the facts I
- 00:07:32think we're arguing about who we trust H
- 00:07:37um in terms of relying on the facts that
- 00:07:40we're getting and that's become more
- 00:07:42splintered in the current U media
- 00:07:45landscape as
- 00:07:46well so the sources of trusted
- 00:07:51information what we would say is trusted
- 00:07:53information is become fragmented I mean
- 00:07:55yeah we we no longer live in a world
- 00:07:57where there are three basic Networks
- 00:07:59uh and we all trust that I in fact I I
- 00:08:02myself am a product of that I'm named
- 00:08:04Walter in part because when my parents
- 00:08:07immigrated to this country Walter
- 00:08:09kronite was on the news and they just
- 00:08:12immediately assumed here's the trusted
- 00:08:14voice in America I've just dated myself
- 00:08:18there people
- 00:08:19that exactly what you're talking about
- 00:08:22exactly right um but it was because
- 00:08:26there is this like National figure that
- 00:08:28everyone got news from um but that's not
- 00:08:31the case right now like it's just
- 00:08:33fragmented that's not the case right now
- 00:08:36and and also let's not be facil in
- 00:08:38suggesting that in the good old days um
- 00:08:42of all of us trusting Walter and his
- 00:08:45colleagues who were hyms as well that
- 00:08:48that there there weren't huge swats of
- 00:08:51of news and important information about
- 00:08:54people in this country that were left
- 00:08:55out right and and they were all
- 00:08:57interpreting the news
- 00:09:00in their own particular way through
- 00:09:02their own particular lens um so so the
- 00:09:06downside is that we got less information
- 00:09:09the upside was that we trusted that
- 00:09:11information so at least if we were
- 00:09:12disagreeing about what was on the news
- 00:09:14we were both talking about the same
- 00:09:15thing so it's mixed it's I think it's
- 00:09:18mixed so u i I want to draw that out
- 00:09:22just because I know some of your work
- 00:09:24you know you use this imagery of laders
- 00:09:26of inference um to talk about fact so
- 00:09:29you've already kind of started us down
- 00:09:31that uh Road of thinking about well
- 00:09:34there are facts then you have to think
- 00:09:36about the sources of the facts but what
- 00:09:38what is this ladder of inference like we
- 00:09:40we can't just think about facts as
- 00:09:43Standalone obvious shared things anymore
- 00:09:47yeah that's right so the latter of
- 00:09:49inference um was created as a
- 00:09:52collaboration between uh Harvard
- 00:09:56Business School a colleague named Chris
- 00:09:58Aris and John shine at MIT and it was it
- 00:10:01was just a way to map the way that our
- 00:10:04brains take in and process information
- 00:10:06so if we use a simplified version of it
- 00:10:09in the difficult conversations world at
- 00:10:12the bottom of the lad if you're
- 00:10:13picturing that ladder the lad sort of
- 00:10:15stands in a a pool of available
- 00:10:18information available data so anything
- 00:10:21you can directly observe see smell touch
- 00:10:23feel
- 00:10:24here um and in any moment in our lives
- 00:10:28that pool is sort of infinitely large
- 00:10:31and there's way too much information
- 00:10:33than we can take in and so on the first
- 00:10:36rung up on that ladder we um select what
- 00:10:41we assume is important to pay attention
- 00:10:43to and that's a tiny fraction um of
- 00:10:47what's available to us we're not even
- 00:10:50it's not even a conscious selection
- 00:10:52right in any meeting I'm automatically
- 00:10:55paying attention to you know what's
- 00:10:57what's going to reflect on me or land on
- 00:10:59my plate or ruin my weekend um I don't
- 00:11:02I'm not paying as close attention to
- 00:11:03what's going to ruin your weekend Walter
- 00:11:05as much as I like you and and hope hope
- 00:11:08for the best weekend you can have um so
- 00:11:11so we're we're paying attention to the
- 00:11:12things that we're interested in that we
- 00:11:14have background in that are relevant to
- 00:11:16us so that's the selection rung the next
- 00:11:19rung up is then whatever it is that we
- 00:11:22notice and select we then interpret
- 00:11:25based on both logic and also past
- 00:11:27experience what do I make of this how do
- 00:11:29I interpret it what do I predict about
- 00:11:31it based on my past experience with
- 00:11:33similar situations and then at the top
- 00:11:35of the ladder we come to a
- 00:11:37conclusion now it's not unusual then if
- 00:11:39you and I disagree about something we
- 00:11:43we're trading conclusions you know I
- 00:11:45might say that's the best meeting we've
- 00:11:46had all quarter and you say that was a
- 00:11:49total waste of
- 00:11:50time just better understanding why we
- 00:11:55came to such opposite conclusions means
- 00:11:59just getting curious about really like
- 00:12:02what did you notice in that meeting or
- 00:12:03what what were you hoping it would
- 00:12:05accomplish that led you to interpret
- 00:12:07what did happen as not worthwhile
- 00:12:10because I I'll share with you what I
- 00:12:11noticed and what I was glad we talked
- 00:12:14about and why that changed my prediction
- 00:12:17about what I think we should do next and
- 00:12:19so we're going up and down each other's
- 00:12:21ladders to better understand and that's
- 00:12:24not our instinct when we learn that we
- 00:12:26see something differently than someone
- 00:12:28else can often create
- 00:12:31anxiety um and it can create a situation
- 00:12:34where we just argue trading conclusions
- 00:12:37I think that I thought that was a great
- 00:12:38meeting you know I think you should have
- 00:12:40been paying better attention you know
- 00:12:42and you say well you you're just not
- 00:12:43paying attention to what's important and
- 00:12:45we walk away feeling like the other
- 00:12:47person doesn't quote unquote get it
- 00:12:49rather than being curious about what we
- 00:12:51each got and what we made of
- 00:12:55it it seems like you've just given us a
- 00:12:58framework that promised a solution and
- 00:13:02then you're telling us oh but it doesn't
- 00:13:04always work out that way so it's not
- 00:13:06enough just to have ladders of
- 00:13:07inferences let's get them both out let's
- 00:13:10describe them let's understand you
- 00:13:13you've alluded to where's like anxiety
- 00:13:17yeah and feeling so what else is going
- 00:13:19on in in difficult conversations yeah
- 00:13:22well so I think partly because difficult
- 00:13:25conversations and and conflict
- 00:13:28particularly in important relationships
- 00:13:30feels stressful to us and it feels very
- 00:13:34uncertain because I'm worried about your
- 00:13:37reaction I'm worried about hurting the
- 00:13:39relationship um I'm worried about
- 00:13:41whether you'll see all the things that
- 00:13:44I'm right about um in order to manage
- 00:13:48that anxiety part part of what I do is I
- 00:13:51focus on the certainty of what I'm
- 00:13:52pretty sure I am right
- 00:13:55about um and then underneath that I'm
- 00:13:58trying to figure out what to do with my
- 00:14:00feelings because I'm feeling frustrated
- 00:14:02with you I'm feeling confused about why
- 00:14:04you would say that I'm feeling a little
- 00:14:06bit guilty because I wish I would have
- 00:14:08checked in with you before the meeting
- 00:14:10and I know I probably should have done
- 00:14:12that sometimes so often we're carrying a
- 00:14:15whole bundle of feelings and reactions
- 00:14:18um but in depending on the context we
- 00:14:21may not feel like we're supposed to be
- 00:14:23sharing those feelings and why get in
- 00:14:25why open that can of worms right it's
- 00:14:27not going to help
- 00:14:29there's also a deepest level um
- 00:14:32underneath that where if something feels
- 00:14:35like a difficult conversation chances
- 00:14:37are there's something the situation
- 00:14:39suggests about us that feels at
- 00:14:42stake am I competent or incompetent am I
- 00:14:45a good leader or not a good leader um am
- 00:14:48I
- 00:14:49trusted or I'm not necessarily
- 00:14:52trusted um and so if a conversation
- 00:14:55feels difficult sometimes there's some
- 00:14:57identity hook that has been tripped that
- 00:15:01then amplifies my feelings and then my
- 00:15:03feelings color the story I'm telling
- 00:15:05about what is going on and Lead me
- 00:15:08rather than being curious to cling to
- 00:15:10what feels more certain to
- 00:15:13me all right you've given us this
- 00:15:16fact Dimension to a difficult
- 00:15:19conversation the feeling Dimension this
- 00:15:21last one I want to explore some more
- 00:15:23because it seems like in many ways that
- 00:15:25that's the rub right now that people's
- 00:15:27sense of identity sense of wor sense of
- 00:15:29place sense of self it's all threatened
- 00:15:32um and it feels to be threatened by
- 00:15:36either uh an unnamed you know opponent
- 00:15:40out there or someone sitting at the
- 00:15:42Thanksgiving table saying something that
- 00:15:45all of a sudden is producing all these
- 00:15:47emotions um oh yeah so wh why is it that
- 00:15:52this identity
- 00:15:54issue feels so threatened nowadays
- 00:15:59yeah you know you're making me think
- 00:16:01that maybe part of what's going on is
- 00:16:03that we're having a national identity
- 00:16:06trigger right because what's interesting
- 00:16:09is that I I think there are few people
- 00:16:11who would disagree with the sense that
- 00:16:15we are more polarized than we have been
- 00:16:18in a very very long
- 00:16:19time um certainly in my memory and as
- 00:16:24you and I know our memories go back at
- 00:16:25least a little
- 00:16:27ways um and so it feels more
- 00:16:32polarized and what's interesting is that
- 00:16:35we're not actually what the studies
- 00:16:37shows that we're not as polarized as we
- 00:16:39think that we are nationally that about
- 00:16:42133% of the population actually sits at
- 00:16:45one or the other poll split between the
- 00:16:47two in terms of their
- 00:16:49views 87% of us sit in the middle
- 00:16:53depending on the issue and and change
- 00:16:56our minds or or are mixed in our views
- 00:17:01but what is true is that affective
- 00:17:03polarization has gone up in other words
- 00:17:06our feelings about the quote unquote
- 00:17:08other I think probably exacerbated by um
- 00:17:13statements that are
- 00:17:15overstatements right that are more
- 00:17:17extreme that feel like oh they're coming
- 00:17:20from a big
- 00:17:22population when in fact it's a tiny
- 00:17:25population at the at each end that may
- 00:17:28be feeding it or by the way of course
- 00:17:31outside actors right because they're not
- 00:17:33necessarily humans on the end of those
- 00:17:37tweets and Facebook posts
- 00:17:39Etc um and so the other the last thing I
- 00:17:43think that I've learned recently that
- 00:17:46has been
- 00:17:48fascinating a little worrisome of is
- 00:17:52that if you look at what the other side
- 00:17:55believes
- 00:17:59um our sense of what the other side
- 00:18:01whichever side you're on the other side
- 00:18:03believes is not particularly
- 00:18:05accurate and in fact the people who are
- 00:18:08most politically
- 00:18:10active have the least accurate
- 00:18:13descriptions of what the other side
- 00:18:14thinks so we should at least dis like
- 00:18:16each other for what we actually believe
- 00:18:18rather than what we imagine that they
- 00:18:21believe and the people who actually have
- 00:18:23the most accurate description of what
- 00:18:26sides believe are the people who are
- 00:18:28least Poli Al engaged maybe because
- 00:18:30they're in that sort of Observer status
- 00:18:34which is more
- 00:18:35clearheaded um and more balanced I don't
- 00:18:38know what do you think Walter you know
- 00:18:41Sheila that that's a
- 00:18:43fascinating uh
- 00:18:45observation um and I think there is
- 00:18:48something
- 00:18:50about uh the benefits if you're on this
- 00:18:54extreme side of things uh whether it's
- 00:18:58to maintain your followers on social
- 00:19:02media uh to recognize that the
- 00:19:05forcefulness and the clarity and the
- 00:19:07narrowness I would argue of your
- 00:19:09position um allows you to Mark out
- 00:19:12terrain uh as a voice to that actually
- 00:19:15stands for something and ironically
- 00:19:18there is this sense of lostness right
- 00:19:23now cultural lostness lostness of
- 00:19:25dominant World Views whether you call it
- 00:19:27postmodernity
- 00:19:29or just the increasing
- 00:19:31pluralism so I would add another Dynamic
- 00:19:33and say there's an anxiety because there
- 00:19:36isn't this shared
- 00:19:38narrative and if someone promises like a
- 00:19:41pi Piper I can tell you the narrative
- 00:19:44that you should believe even if
- 00:19:46internally we want to say yeah but that
- 00:19:49seems awfully mean or that's awfully
- 00:19:53narrow it is Le at least an an offer of
- 00:19:59a view of the world that is trying to
- 00:20:01make sense of it so it strikes me that
- 00:20:03there are some tensions that are going
- 00:20:05on I I don't know if you you see that
- 00:20:07working itself out in your own
- 00:20:09experiences and college campuses and but
- 00:20:13it does seem to me that there there is
- 00:20:15this moment that's very
- 00:20:18ambiguous with the loss of dominating
- 00:20:21cultural narratives like how do we even
- 00:20:24understand our own history is it 1776 or
- 00:20:271619 should describe or you like yeah
- 00:20:30there's a lot up in the air and someone
- 00:20:32that could come and say no it's this
- 00:20:35right or that like it promises something
- 00:20:38but what you're saying and I find really
- 00:20:40intriguing is that the vast the 87% of
- 00:20:44the people actually don't feel that way
- 00:20:48find that somewhat unsettling as an
- 00:20:52observer and yet somehow those voices
- 00:20:56that 87 is not able to
- 00:21:00contest and quell the
- 00:21:04133% so I don't know that that was my
- 00:21:07reflection but I turned that back to an
- 00:21:09OB question for you of like what if it's
- 00:21:11the 87% then why why just out of the
- 00:21:15sheer
- 00:21:16numbers hasn't that been able to quell
- 00:21:19the
- 00:21:20133% yeah well so um so there's so much
- 00:21:25packed into what you just reflected on
- 00:21:28which is
- 00:21:30amazing one thing that strikes me is
- 00:21:32that in times of uncertainty and in
- 00:21:34Conflict the narratives being offered
- 00:21:37that are simpler that we can all buy
- 00:21:39into or at least some of us can buy into
- 00:21:41feel
- 00:21:42reassuring even if
- 00:21:46they we know they're a little extreme
- 00:21:48you know or whatever right a little
- 00:21:50simplistic and and what one of the
- 00:21:53patterns for we flawed human beings um
- 00:21:57is that that Triad a villain victim hero
- 00:22:02is a very appealing Triad when we're in
- 00:22:05conflict and so conflict stories tend to
- 00:22:10map onto well who's the problem who's
- 00:22:12the villain who's the victim and who's
- 00:22:15going to be the hero here and if you
- 00:22:18listen to the narratives that are being
- 00:22:20offered um they often follow that
- 00:22:23pattern whether whether it's in our
- 00:22:24interpersonal conflict right with the
- 00:22:27neighbor down the street or
- 00:22:29um or the
- 00:22:30national discourse um or Stories being
- 00:22:35offered the other thing that um you're
- 00:22:38making me think about in that 87% versus
- 00:22:42133% is
- 00:22:45that if I look around my
- 00:22:48neighborhood if I look around my
- 00:22:51congregation and my friends I feel like
- 00:22:55we actually have a lot of shared values
- 00:22:59and
- 00:23:00shared
- 00:23:02care um and however we
- 00:23:06vote we care a lot about the same things
- 00:23:09and the health of our
- 00:23:12community so on an individual
- 00:23:15level I think I hope it feels more
- 00:23:19reassuring but the national narrative
- 00:23:23has been hijacked right to be more um um
- 00:23:30fractured and I'm not I'm not glossing
- 00:23:32over the fact that we are voting in
- 00:23:34different ways um but I don't know that
- 00:23:38anybody is happy with the
- 00:23:40choices if we you might get a more than
- 00:23:4387% saying they're not totally happy
- 00:23:45with the choices I don't know um so yeah
- 00:23:50I don't know what your sense of looking
- 00:23:52around the
- 00:23:54room whatever room we're in whether it
- 00:23:57feels us fractured
- 00:23:59I I think Sheila you you made a really
- 00:24:02interesting observation that
- 00:24:05individually when we humanize when we
- 00:24:07enter into the complexity of each
- 00:24:09other's Story We recognize we have a lot
- 00:24:13to share a lot to share with one another
- 00:24:17and I think of all the stories in
- 00:24:19scripture in which Jesus is interacting
- 00:24:21personally with someone whether it's you
- 00:24:24know this uh a woman uh sitting at a
- 00:24:28well from a different ethnic group
- 00:24:30there's that personal interaction that
- 00:24:33diffuses uh all the defense mechanisms
- 00:24:36of this woman toward this you know
- 00:24:39person that's a stranger that seems
- 00:24:41threatening I I get that on the
- 00:24:43interpersonal level um H how do we do
- 00:24:48this and I've seen that happen like I
- 00:24:50said you know in marriage counseling a
- 00:24:52pastoral counseling that I've done um
- 00:24:56I've seen couples work through issues on
- 00:24:58a personal level what seems more
- 00:25:01complicated is when you're doing this on
- 00:25:04community levels on on the level of
- 00:25:07groups of people where you have multiple
- 00:25:11stories that you know it's just frankly
- 00:25:13not going to be possible to hear every
- 00:25:15single person's story and be friends
- 00:25:18that's the part where I wonder does does
- 00:25:21the difficult conversation template work
- 00:25:25in
- 00:25:27that
- 00:25:28larger uh more Amorphis setting and if
- 00:25:32if it does work and I hope it does which
- 00:25:35is why I'm having you on this
- 00:25:36conversation um if it does work then
- 00:25:40what what are some of the keys to like
- 00:25:43make sure that it can translate into
- 00:25:46other
- 00:25:48settings yeah so so really a first
- 00:25:51question to ask is if we're going to
- 00:25:54have a conversation we're going to
- 00:25:56convene some people
- 00:25:59what is our
- 00:26:00purpose and there are different purposes
- 00:26:03that would then lead you to have
- 00:26:04different
- 00:26:06approaches often whether it's oneon-one
- 00:26:10um in a bump into someone you know at
- 00:26:13the Super Market conversation or even
- 00:26:18convening a meeting we don't think very
- 00:26:20clearly about our purposes and our
- 00:26:22default purpose tends to be to try to
- 00:26:24persuade to Advocate to get them to
- 00:26:27agree with our conclusion MH because
- 00:26:30we're pretty sure that our conclusion is
- 00:26:32right and what we believe this is really
- 00:26:34about is what it should be really about
- 00:26:38to
- 00:26:39everybody but if you take any
- 00:26:41individual
- 00:26:44issue 10 different people would probably
- 00:26:46have 12 different things that they think
- 00:26:48it's really
- 00:26:49about um you know is this about the
- 00:26:52fairness of the process so far is this
- 00:26:54about whether or not um the land can
- 00:26:58have that much development on it is this
- 00:27:00about the impact on traffic on certain
- 00:27:02communities and not other communities is
- 00:27:04this about the history of how the city
- 00:27:06makes these decisions you know that we
- 00:27:09could we could name 12 different things
- 00:27:10that any particular even local issue
- 00:27:14might be about and if my purpose is to
- 00:27:17persuade you that I'm right we're going
- 00:27:20to set ourselves up to butt
- 00:27:23heads which is not to say that advocacy
- 00:27:26doesn't have a place to flesh out the
- 00:27:29arguments on different sides but we
- 00:27:31often think that there are only two
- 00:27:33sides when you probably need to hear
- 00:27:36what else is it about if there are 10 or
- 00:27:3812 things that people are worried
- 00:27:41about a second purpose would just be
- 00:27:43exploration can we better understand
- 00:27:46what we each think and what we each are
- 00:27:48worried
- 00:27:49about um sometimes I listen to the the
- 00:27:52parties in our two-party system and I
- 00:27:55think we've just divvied up
- 00:27:57responsibility for worrying about the
- 00:27:58different things that we all need to
- 00:28:00worry about as a
- 00:28:02democracy we need to worry about
- 00:28:04individual rights and protecting
- 00:28:07individual rights we need to worry about
- 00:28:09where where does decision- making lie in
- 00:28:12a federalist system you know what do
- 00:28:14individuals get to decide for themselves
- 00:28:16what does a town get to decide and need
- 00:28:18to fund what does a state and a and what
- 00:28:20should the federal government be
- 00:28:22overseeing or not overseeing those are
- 00:28:25really important questions that we need
- 00:28:27to continually keep an eye on and one
- 00:28:29party has taken primary responsibility
- 00:28:31for that in the rhetoric
- 00:28:35anyway the other party has said like
- 00:28:38okay but in a democracy you can't just
- 00:28:39have the majority rule you also have to
- 00:28:42worry about the minority voices that are
- 00:28:45left out um and those who don't have a
- 00:28:48voice and we Absolut that is also true
- 00:28:52we absolutely have to worry about that
- 00:28:54but each side can say well because
- 00:28:56you're worried about it I don't have to
- 00:28:58worry about it so much which leads me
- 00:29:01back around
- 00:29:02to good questions to ask each other and
- 00:29:05and I have found on any individual issue
- 00:29:08just asking somebody help me understand
- 00:29:10what you're worried about if this goes
- 00:29:12the other way or what is it that you're
- 00:29:14protecting or you feel risks being
- 00:29:17unprotected and that can be a really um
- 00:29:20more fruitful conversation not because
- 00:29:22we have to agree at the end but because
- 00:29:24our bet I'll better understand why you
- 00:29:26feel so strongly about it
- 00:29:29what then is the place of a strongly
- 00:29:32held
- 00:29:34conviction that in the end you're you
- 00:29:37know there are Eternal consequences to
- 00:29:39this issue
- 00:29:41or I I I truly believe um that in the
- 00:29:46end
- 00:29:48this life begins
- 00:29:50here or it doesn't uh the ends of the
- 00:29:55responsibilities of what the states can
- 00:29:57or can't do
- 00:29:58the line must be drawn here at some
- 00:30:00point the
- 00:30:03exploration needs to lead to some kind
- 00:30:05of
- 00:30:06decision and that decision is going to
- 00:30:10please some and not please others um
- 00:30:12that decision seems Frau with the sense
- 00:30:15of circling back to your kind of
- 00:30:17framework of facts feelings and identity
- 00:30:20that decision seems to come
- 00:30:22back and um challenge my sense of
- 00:30:25identity that I have been a coward for
- 00:30:28not fighting for my convictions more or
- 00:30:31I've been a compromiser for permitting
- 00:30:33those convictions to
- 00:30:35change uh or even worse I've become
- 00:30:40complicit uh you can see I'm an
- 00:30:41Evangelical because I'm making
- 00:30:43everything illiterate here
- 00:30:46um indeed so how do you how do you
- 00:30:51balance that in the end there really are
- 00:30:55some issues for which there are perish
- 00:30:58convictions that are root in your
- 00:31:01identity but you still have to navigate
- 00:31:03life in a world where people don't have
- 00:31:06those same
- 00:31:10convictions part of what you're making
- 00:31:12me think
- 00:31:14about is another time when our view of
- 00:31:19the
- 00:31:20world as human as a human race um and
- 00:31:24particularly people of Faith felt very
- 00:31:26threatened
- 00:31:28and it reminds me of um when it started
- 00:31:32to
- 00:31:33be apparent um that it was not that
- 00:31:38everything revolved around the earth it
- 00:31:40was that we were revolving around the
- 00:31:41Sun and that was really disruptive in
- 00:31:44terms of who we are and whether we are
- 00:31:46at the center of the universe right um
- 00:31:50and some people paid the price for
- 00:31:52suggesting that the conviction that
- 00:31:54everybody had at the time was maybe not
- 00:31:57as aligned with Understanding God's
- 00:31:59creation and
- 00:32:00reality and so part of what you made me
- 00:32:04think about when you were describing do
- 00:32:06we have a unified narrative as a
- 00:32:10nation is
- 00:32:13that Walter
- 00:32:15kronite uh and
- 00:32:18our Network colleagues did provide a
- 00:32:21unified story but it wasn't the
- 00:32:24pluralistic reality that is
- 00:32:30America and so we're our narrative is is
- 00:32:34in transition right now to be closer I
- 00:32:37think to reality and we're grappling
- 00:32:40with that um but it that maybe leaves me
- 00:32:44back to thinking it's it's important to
- 00:32:47have things that we feel strongly about
- 00:32:50and that we value and that we're
- 00:32:53seeking and at the end of the day what
- 00:32:55we're seeking is more truth
- 00:32:58to align our understanding closer to
- 00:33:01truth and so our convictions actually
- 00:33:03should always be open to slight revision
- 00:33:09or well maybe there's something I hadn't
- 00:33:11considered here that I just need to
- 00:33:13factor
- 00:33:14in um whether that's as an individual or
- 00:33:18as a community so you're we'll come back
- 00:33:22to eventually decisions have to be made
- 00:33:25right what are we going to do we have to
- 00:33:27we have to update our policy about X Y
- 00:33:30or Z and we can't make everybody
- 00:33:33happy
- 00:33:35um but the question of did I feel heard
- 00:33:38and do I understand the reasoning behind
- 00:33:41the decision even if I don't agree with
- 00:33:44it um I understand why we needed to do
- 00:33:47it and I understand my own freedom to
- 00:33:50live alongside
- 00:33:52it or not right um in terms of sort of
- 00:33:58where in what way does that decision
- 00:34:00impact me as an
- 00:34:03individual yeah so I know that in
- 00:34:06context whether it's your church or in
- 00:34:09my case the academy
- 00:34:11um we have these deep
- 00:34:15aspirations uh you know from my vantage
- 00:34:18point as a Christian to love our
- 00:34:19neighbor to love God to fulfill the
- 00:34:22mission of Jesus in this world uh to
- 00:34:25recognize that we're all part of a body
- 00:34:27each one has uh an a vital role uh the
- 00:34:31Commandments quick to listen slow to
- 00:34:33speak slow to anger I mean it's all
- 00:34:35there and yet during the pandemic
- 00:34:38whether it was the issue of George Floyd
- 00:34:39or vaccination or closing down uh and
- 00:34:43the
- 00:34:43prioritization of issues you've already
- 00:34:46referred to you know what what uh you
- 00:34:49know we have these range of issues at
- 00:34:51the Nae that we seek to address ranging
- 00:34:53from you know pro-life ethic that's
- 00:34:56comprehensive creation care racial
- 00:34:59Justice religious freedom uh what I've
- 00:35:02noticed that people prioritize them
- 00:35:04differently they may Ascent to say oh
- 00:35:06all these are important we agree this is
- 00:35:07a comprehensive application of the good
- 00:35:09news of Jesus Christ in society held
- 00:35:12with Charity until we actually have to
- 00:35:15prioritize which one we should start
- 00:35:17working on first right and so despite
- 00:35:19all the commands uh it's awfully
- 00:35:23difficult and we've seen that in in real
- 00:35:26life I would venture to say
- 00:35:28I like many in the country have been
- 00:35:30witnessing what has happened at
- 00:35:33universities uh you know whether it's
- 00:35:37the Ivy Leagues or state schools in
- 00:35:38which debates have been
- 00:35:41roaling despite a long history of
- 00:35:44universities being committed to the
- 00:35:47exploration of curiosity you know
- 00:35:50Exploration with curiosity openness to
- 00:35:52truth wherever it may lead us uh the
- 00:35:55marketplace of ideas all of that so
- 00:35:58explain a bit more in some of these
- 00:36:01actual lived experiences whether you're
- 00:36:04observing the church or the university
- 00:36:05maybe you have something specific to say
- 00:36:07about your own University context we've
- 00:36:09got all figured out you notic that
- 00:36:12exactly exactly yeah um why is it that
- 00:36:16people fail to live up to the
- 00:36:21aspirations that govern them they
- 00:36:25articulate preach or teach in the
- 00:36:27classroom right in you know educational
- 00:36:31constitutions or uh vision statements in
- 00:36:35our churches I mean why is it that we
- 00:36:37don't live up to
- 00:36:39this
- 00:36:41um I think because the this often
- 00:36:44involves a a
- 00:36:47duality or a tension that has
- 00:36:53Noble values on each
- 00:36:55side so for instance um part of what I
- 00:37:00think is going on on campuses right now
- 00:37:03is that there are
- 00:37:05two values um that are both at the heart
- 00:37:11of being a a learning community and one
- 00:37:16is free expression and curiosity and
- 00:37:19learning um and and saying what feels
- 00:37:23important to
- 00:37:24you and the other one is protecting a
- 00:37:27learning environment for all and right
- 00:37:31now those two are sitting in particular
- 00:37:33tension because For the First Time In My
- 00:37:36Memory we have activism about really
- 00:37:40genuinely important issues going on life
- 00:37:44and death
- 00:37:45issues and um that particularly when
- 00:37:49it's making extreme slogans and
- 00:37:52statements has a population a
- 00:37:54significant population on all of those
- 00:37:56campuses also who feel directly impacted
- 00:38:00and threatened and that was not true you
- 00:38:03know if you're talking about
- 00:38:05unionization or you're talking about you
- 00:38:08know anti-apartheid back in my day it
- 00:38:11wasn't like we had a lot of white South
- 00:38:13Africans on campus feeling threatened
- 00:38:15personally threatened but the issues
- 00:38:17right now are really complicated and
- 00:38:20come out of among the most
- 00:38:22complicated conflicts in our world
- 00:38:26history um
- 00:38:28when you know we we talk at the Harvard
- 00:38:32negotiation project about looking for
- 00:38:35winwin solutions that things are rarely
- 00:38:39zero some and and people can build trust
- 00:38:43and find solutions that won't satisfy
- 00:38:45everything but that would be better than
- 00:38:48Alternatives um rather than feeling like
- 00:38:50negotiation is Win Lose I just have to
- 00:38:52beat
- 00:38:53you um right now in the Middle East
- 00:38:56we're really in a lose
- 00:38:58lose um we're in a cycle of lose lose in
- 00:39:01a way that is
- 00:39:03heartbreaking and we're getting an echo
- 00:39:05of that on campuses as people
- 00:39:09say um look we want to protect a
- 00:39:13learning environment and we want to
- 00:39:14support people being able to express
- 00:39:18themselves freely and those have to we
- 00:39:21have to figure out a way to navigate
- 00:39:22those as a community together and I
- 00:39:25think we haven't done a great job of
- 00:39:27engaging everybody in shared
- 00:39:29responsibility for navigating those two
- 00:39:33together that shared responsibility when
- 00:39:36you're discovering How Deeply personally
- 00:39:39invested the issues are you you use the
- 00:39:41example of apartheid versus what we're
- 00:39:43experiencing now and you you you've
- 00:39:47already alluded on a couple of occasions
- 00:39:48in our conversation to the fact that you
- 00:39:50know the the national narrative in the
- 00:39:53Walter kronite era really while true in
- 00:39:57one sense was insufficient there are
- 00:40:01there were many people the Native
- 00:40:02American story the African-American
- 00:40:04story and ironically even my own
- 00:40:07family's story that you know though I
- 00:40:09was named Walter we had a very distinct
- 00:40:12experience uh as my family did as
- 00:40:15korean-american immigrants which wasn't
- 00:40:17a part of the Paul bunan story that I
- 00:40:21would learn about in my Early Education
- 00:40:25yes and so um
- 00:40:27we're discovering now the plurality of
- 00:40:30stories that exist I think this true
- 00:40:33even within churches because people are
- 00:40:35coming from all sorts of various
- 00:40:37backgrounds you know the Parish Church
- 00:40:40in which people for multiple Generations
- 00:40:43grew up with one another knew each
- 00:40:45other's grandparents that that's like
- 00:40:48the a a decreasing reality the churches
- 00:40:52are populated by people that have moved
- 00:40:54there maybe have moved from multiple
- 00:40:58locations multiple times in their lives
- 00:41:01and so there isn't the same kind of
- 00:41:03homogeneity uh that exists in any
- 00:41:06Community really church or neighborhoods
- 00:41:10and that means different stories now um
- 00:41:15need to be told different sets of facts
- 00:41:18different feelings different identities
- 00:41:19are at play in our
- 00:41:22community um and you I was struck by um
- 00:41:26one uh Community I was doing a little
- 00:41:28bit of research as I was interacting
- 00:41:31with some Pastors in this community that
- 00:41:34had talked about you know this issue of
- 00:41:37multi ethnic Ministry and said you know
- 00:41:40but most of my neighborhood is is it's
- 00:41:43all white so we may have this beautiful
- 00:41:45desire for a multiethnic church
- 00:41:47reflecting this vision of a multiethnic
- 00:41:50you know community of God um but that's
- 00:41:53not the reality later I did some
- 00:41:55research and found out that 20% of their
- 00:41:58county is
- 00:41:59Hispanic um and and yet it's a story
- 00:42:03that's not not of not just told not told
- 00:42:07but it's not even seen because of the
- 00:42:09ways that we can navigate life we don't
- 00:42:11even see that there are some different
- 00:42:13facts on the ground so it it all this
- 00:42:17stuff you've been so helpful in this
- 00:42:20conversation in the plurality that we
- 00:42:23face that is held with deep conviction
- 00:42:27and
- 00:42:28animosity maybe even promulgated by the
- 00:42:33133% that is in very unhelpful ways
- 00:42:37creating
- 00:42:38problems what would you say to the 87%
- 00:42:41just as a concluding
- 00:42:44thought to to give us both encouragement
- 00:42:47but but also
- 00:42:49courage not just to bury our heads but
- 00:42:52to engage in this difficult conversation
- 00:42:55work I mean some of it is just to stand
- 00:42:58back and see the beauty of that
- 00:43:03plurality and to appreciate it it can
- 00:43:06feel overwhelming and it can feel scary
- 00:43:09and we can feel like I'm going to say
- 00:43:10the wrong thing because I don't totally
- 00:43:13understand I'm coming from my own story
- 00:43:16always um so it it is maybe a harder
- 00:43:21conversation but it's also a more
- 00:43:23beautiful conversation and if if we come
- 00:43:25back to the community that Jesus brought
- 00:43:28together it was Reaching Across the
- 00:43:31broadest spectrum of
- 00:43:33society um in a way
- 00:43:36that uh
- 00:43:38honored where people were coming from
- 00:43:40and what their individual challenges
- 00:43:42were at the time I I I was just thinking
- 00:43:45about the parents of teenagers in any
- 00:43:50congregation and on the one hand you
- 00:43:52would say well you know they all kind of
- 00:43:54have the same challenges Etc when in
- 00:43:56fact their specific challenges might be
- 00:43:59quite
- 00:44:01different right one one family is really
- 00:44:04worried about
- 00:44:07depression um or anxiety going on other
- 00:44:09is worried about their academic success
- 00:44:13another's worried about their physical
- 00:44:14capabilities another is worried about
- 00:44:17they're starting to drive and I'm
- 00:44:20worried about their safety and not
- 00:44:22because of just the dangers of the road
- 00:44:24and other is like I'm worried about
- 00:44:25their safety because if they get stopped
- 00:44:27they are much more at risk as a person
- 00:44:29of color right and and so the the
- 00:44:33question
- 00:44:35of the
- 00:44:37beautiful and challenging plurality of
- 00:44:39how do we really see each
- 00:44:42other and support each other in the
- 00:44:45variety of challenges that we face um as
- 00:44:50communities and subc communities and and
- 00:44:53then across the country um the more we
- 00:44:56can really see and Care show that
- 00:45:00care um I think the the easier the
- 00:45:03conversation will be and the stronger
- 00:45:05will be as a
- 00:45:08nation Sheila thank you so much this
- 00:45:11conversation has really been Rich
- 00:45:14encouraging and and and deeply
- 00:45:18equipping well thank you I want to live
- 00:45:20in the Walter Kim era can we have that
- 00:45:23be the next
- 00:45:24era you're very kind
- 00:45:28yeah I mean I think that the care that
- 00:45:31that you're putting
- 00:45:33into helping us all step back and think
- 00:45:36about how we want to show up with each
- 00:45:39other um is is one of the things that is
- 00:45:43missing in the conversations that we're
- 00:45:45having so thank you for that
- Difficult Conversations
- Communication
- Polarization
- Identity
- Social Media
- Negotiation
- Community Engagement
- Pluralism
- Emotions
- Trust