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(upbeat music)
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- You started as a community organizer
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and rose to be president,
you understand the power
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of moving people along, even
people who aren't necessarily
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on your bus when you start.
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Talk to us a little bit about
how you think of movements
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around the world and
the power of those now
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and what leaders can learn from them.
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- Well, I'd make a couple of observations.
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Number one is that
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most big change, most
human progress is driven by
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young people who don't know any better
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and figure, why can't we
do something different?
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Old people get comfortable or cranky
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or protective of their
status or set in their ways,
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there's a reason why if
you look at, for example,
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here in the United States,
the Civil Rights Movement,
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the leaders of those
movements were in their 20s,
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Dr. King was 26 when he
started, 39 when he was killed.
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And if you canvas the world, oftentimes,
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that is the impetus, people asking,
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in ways that I think are familiar to many,
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not why not, or not why, but why not?
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Why do things have to be the way they are?
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So that's point number
one that young people,
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I think, can make an enormous difference.
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Number two is that because most of us now
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either live in democracies or countries
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that purport to be democracies,
because we have won
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the battle of ideas that says governments
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and our common efforts have to be rooted
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in the legitimacy of people,
there is more power than ever
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in people being able to band together
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and collectively push for initiatives
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that are gonna make change in their lives.
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That's something that,
for most of human history,
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was unimaginable, that is one
of the amazing transitions
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that has taken place and you will notice
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that even in autocracies today,
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there is the
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at least the pretense of democracy
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because people believe that governments
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that are rooted in people
are more legitimate
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and that's a battle we won
and now have to make real
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wherever we can, that's point number two.
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Point number three is
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simple math.
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In most places, if you
wanna get something done,
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whether it's a smarter
climate change policy
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or healthcare for people
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or more funding for girls' education,
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you've gotta have a majority
of people supporting it,
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you gotta have votes, you have to have
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the allocation of resources
and that requires mobilization
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and a game of addition
rather than subtraction.
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And the fourth point I would make
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would be the internet
now has turbo charged
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the capacity for us to develop movements
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in ways that we had not imagined before.
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Now, the last thing I'll say
so that I don't sound like
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I'm still in the US
Senate and filibustering.
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(laughs)
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Is I guess a smaller
point but a profound one
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that I tried to reinforce
with my staff at every level
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of my public work and
continue to do to this day,
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I actually think organizing, mobilizing,
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starting movements starts with a story.
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And you can't create a story
that moves large numbers
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of people unless you are
able to listen and hear
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to the story of the person next to you.
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The story of your neighbors,
the stories of your coworkers,
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the stories of your
community, the story of people
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who are not like you,
and so one of the things
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that I think is important
is for us to learn
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how to listen to each
other and learn how it is
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that we came to be who we
are, think the way we do,
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because that understanding
of other people's stories
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is how you end up ultimately forging bonds
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and creating the glue
that creates movements.
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Every great movement, you
think about Gandhi in India.
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It started with his
understanding of India's story
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and his own story and seeing
Indians in South Africa
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discriminated against and recognizing
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that there were traditions
and myths and a power
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in those stories that ended up
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driving out the most
powerful empire on earth.
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It wasn't guns.
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And increasingly, that will be the case
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and certainly, that will
be the case if we're able,
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if we wanna move forward the
sustainable development goals
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that we're talking about,
is we've gotta be able
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to tell a story not only to
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big donors or politicians,
but also to, for example,
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people here in the United
States who may feel like,
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look, I've got my own problems,
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why should I be worrying about somebody
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on the other side of the world?
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- Yeah I have to say, when
we got into philanthropy
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and particularly studied global health,
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we were stunned at the
progress, we'd had no idea
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and it's kind of amazing, if
you ask even very well-educated
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people what's happened with vaccination,
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what's happened with HIV,
they don't know the positive
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story and a little bit, the
news is always gonna focus on
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the setbacks, 'cause that's
what happened that day,
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the gradual progress
doesn't fit that paradigm
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and even people who raise
money for these causes,
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I have to say, sometimes
even some of the material
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we create is talking about
the peace that remains
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as though it's never improved.
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Do you have any thoughts on
how we get this more positive
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sense of progress going and
how we would get that word out?
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- Well, look, you're talking to somebody
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who for seven years
tried to get the word out
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that things were going pretty good.
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(laughs)
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And nobody, at least
about 40% of the country
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didn't believe me until I
was gone and then suddenly
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they believed it, they
said, things are great.
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(laughs, applauding)
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So with that caveat,
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I'd make a couple observations.
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One, you're right, Bill, there
is the nature of the media
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and maybe just the human
brain, is to fasten on
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what's wrong, not on what's right,
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and I'm not sure we're gonna
be able to change that.
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Visual displays of a fire
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are much more interesting than
just a building sitting there
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and so the fire's gonna make the news,
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the building's sitting there nicely
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and people are walking their
dogs in front of it and stuff,
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that will not make the news.
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So I don't think that we can
count on conventional media
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necessarily to spread the word,
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this is, though, where
the power of the internet
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has not, I think been harnessed
the way it needs to be,
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particularly when we
think about young people
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and young audiences.
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Malia and Sasha consume
information differently than I do
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and I think that those of
us who've been involved
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with policy work are still putting out
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these reports with pie
charts and this and that
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and that's not interesting to them.
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But stories and visual
representations of progress
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can go viral.
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There's a hunger for it.
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It's just that we don't
systematically think about it
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and so I think when the
three of us were talking
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awhile back, I mentioned
that one of the areas
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that I'm deeply interested
in is how do we build
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sort of a digital platform
whereby people can go
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to find out what's happening
that is moving the progress
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on issues and then active
them, because I heard somebody,
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I think maybe Trevor,
saying an important point,
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I'm very interested in
how online communities
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can move offline, how this
incredible power to convene
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through hashtags and tweets and
this and that and the other,
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eventually leads to
people meeting each other
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and talking to each other,
and I think that we have not
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fully tapped that as a
way of spreading the word
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about progress that has been made.
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I also think it is
important for us to put some
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friendly pressure on
leaders to tell good stories
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and to make sure that we don't,
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that we aren't so rigid in
our partisanship or ideologies
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that we are not willing
to acknowledge and share
00:11:00
when somebody who might be
of a different political
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persuasion has done something really good,
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even if it runs contrary to
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our short-term political interests.
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I always used to say, as
big as the differences were
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between me and my
predecessor, George W. Bush,
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that what his administration
initiated with PEPFAR
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was a singularly important achievement
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that we needed to sustain and build on.
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I didn't think that
somehow detracted from me
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to say that somebody from
another political party
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did something really smart and really good
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and deserved credit for it,
and I feel as if these days,
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within our political circles,
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that's a hard thing for people
to bring themselves to do.
00:12:01
(audience applauding)
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- One of the things that Bill
and I had the great privilege
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of doing when you were in the White House
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late in your presidency
was spending a little bit
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of casual time on a Saturday night
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and your daughters were
in and out of your home,
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Malia and Sasha, and
you've been to our house
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earlier this summer and
saw Rory and Phoebe,
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two of our three in and out of our house,
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our daughter Jen is here in the front row.
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- Jen's like, thanks Mom.
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- Yeah sorry, you weren't home that night.
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But she's about the age of your daughters.
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- That's our job, to embarrass
you, that's what we do.
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- Exactly, I just did
it, job none right there.
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But Jen's about the age of your girls,
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a little bit older, but
how have you and Michelle
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thought about talking to your children
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about being leaders in the
world and taking up this mantle
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of what needs to be done in the world?
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- Well what we've tried to
communicate their entire lives
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is that
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each of us has responsibilities.
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When they were small, the
responsibilities were small,
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like say when you wanna go potty and then.
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(laughs)
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As you get older, your
responsibilities grow.
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But part of what we I think
tried to communicate is that
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being responsible is
an enormous privilege,
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that's what marks you
as a fully grown human,
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is that other people rely on you,
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that you have influence,
that you can make your mark,
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that if you do something
well, that that will improve
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other people's lives,
that the kinds of values
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that we've tried to instill, many of them,
00:14:00
your basic homespun values
like kindness and consideration
00:14:05
and empathy and hard
work, that those are tools
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by which you can shape
the world around you
00:14:16
in a way that feels good.
00:14:21
And so what we've tried
to encourage is the sense
00:14:27
that it's not somebody
else's job, it's your job,
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and I think that's an ethic
that they've embraced.
00:14:38
Now they will choose to
participate in different ways
00:14:43
because they have different temperaments,
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different strengths, I
think one of the mistakes
00:14:46
that we sometimes make is
to think that there's just
00:14:50
one way of making a
difference or being involved.
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If you are a brilliant engineer,
00:14:58
you don't have to make a speech,
00:15:03
you can create an app that
allows an amplification
00:15:08
or the scaling up of something
that is really powerful.
00:15:17
If you are somebody who
likes to care for people,
00:15:22
you don't have to go out
and lead the protest march,
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you can mentor some kids
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or work at a local health
clinic that is gonna
00:15:40
make a difference, so there
are a lot of different ways
00:15:43
in which to make a contribution
and we try to emphasize that
00:15:45
to them as well, and then
the third thing that we try
00:15:50
to encourage is what I
mentioned in my earlier remarks,
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which is that you have to be persistent.
00:16:02
I always tell people that
my early work as a community
00:16:10
organizer in Chicago taught
me an incredible amount
00:16:15
but I didn't set the world on fire.
00:16:19
I got some public parks for
communities that needed them,
00:16:25
I started some after-school programs,
00:16:28
we helped set up a job training program
00:16:30
for people who had been laid off of work
00:16:33
but those communities
weren't suddenly transformed,
00:16:38
they still had huge problems.
00:16:41
But I took that experience
and then I was able
00:16:45
to build on it and I think
so often, we get impatient
00:16:52
because change does not look as if
00:16:59
sometimes it's not as
discernible or immediate
00:17:02
or impactful as we had
imagined in our minds.
00:17:07
And we get disappointed
and we get frustrated.
00:17:11
For me, by the way, that's advice in life
00:17:16
and not just in social
change, I assume occasionally
00:17:20
there was a bug in the software Bill did.
00:17:23
- Every now and then.
- Every once in awhile.
00:17:26
And oh, we gotta patch it again?
00:17:28
This is annoying.
00:17:30
(laughs)
00:17:33
- I heard it a little
differently than that.
00:17:36
- I wasn't known for my patience.
00:17:39
- I didn't hear, oh darn.
00:17:41
(laughs)
00:17:44
Bill, did you have one last question?
00:17:46
- So this week, part of the
reason we're all in New York
00:17:50
is the United Nations is meeting
00:17:52
and in some of these global institutions
00:17:54
that were created right
after World War II,
00:17:57
World Bank, World Health
Organization, UNICEF,
00:18:01
they've been key partners
for many of these causes
00:18:04
and yet there's definitely a cynicism
00:18:06
about their bureaucracy, their efficiency,
00:18:10
and their ability to change.
00:18:11
In fact, with very few
exceptions like Global Fund
00:18:15
and GOBI, we haven't had any new ones,
00:18:18
so over the next 10 or 20 years,
00:18:20
do you think these global
institutions in terms of reform
00:18:23
or creating new ones, for
pandemics and climate change,
00:18:28
can they step up to play the
role we need them to play?
00:18:32
- Well.
00:18:35
Let me first of all say
that the biggest problems
00:18:40
we confront, no one nation
is going to be able to solve
00:18:44
on its own, not even a nation as powerful
00:18:47
as the United States of America.
00:18:51
There are times during my
presidency where I was attacked
00:18:55
for not claiming that
we could go on our own,
00:19:03
as if that was an expression of weakness.
00:19:06
No, I believe that the
United States is in fact
00:19:11
an indispensable nation, and
that many of the initiatives
00:19:18
and much of the progress that we've made
00:19:20
could not have been done unless
we underwrote those efforts
00:19:25
and I'll use as an example
our handling of Ebola,
00:19:31
which in retrospect,
00:19:36
I think a lot of historians would argue
00:19:39
was one of the, if not the most effective
00:19:43
emergency public health
intervention in history.
00:19:48
We had to create the architecture
and the infrastructure
00:19:54
and send our military in to create runways
00:19:57
where the Chinese could then
land planes to deliver goods
00:20:01
and we had to provide
guarantees to the Europeans
00:20:04
so that if they sent health workers,
00:20:06
they could feel some
assurance that they could be
00:20:10
med-evaced out if they got infected.
00:20:14
So I take great pride in
what the United States can do
00:20:21
but if we're talking about climate change
00:20:23
or global migrations spurred
on by drought or famine
00:20:35
or ethnic conflicts,
00:20:40
we're not gonna be able to
solve those things by ourselves
00:20:43
and as you indicated, Bill,
00:20:47
if we get an airborne pandemic,
00:20:52
unlike a slow-moving, disease
that's difficult to transmit
00:20:58
like Ebola, if we haven't
built ahead of time
00:21:02
some structures to deal with this,
00:21:05
millions of people could
be adversely impacted.
00:21:09
So number one, you have
to start with the premise
00:21:13
and believe that multilateral institutions
00:21:17
and efforts are important,
and you don't have to cede
00:21:19
all your sovereignty or, it
doesn't make you less patriotic
00:21:23
to believe that, you just have to
00:21:28
have some sense and read.
(laughs)
00:21:33
So that's point number
one, point number two
00:21:36
is that in fact, there
are problems with existing
00:21:42
multilateral institutions,
not surprisingly,
00:21:45
they were designed post-World War II
00:21:48
for the most part and they
couldn't have anticipated
00:21:52
everything's that happened.
00:21:54
There is bureaucracy and
inertia and resistance to reform
00:21:59
so it is important for
every country, every leader,
00:22:06
to be honest about the need for reform
00:22:09
and not simply think narrowly about, well,
00:22:11
I wanna keep certain
numbers of slots or votes
00:22:14
or this or that, at least
on many of the issues
00:22:19
where there shouldn't be a
big ideological controversy.
00:22:22
Reforming the security council,
00:22:27
that's something that goes to
core geopolitical interests
00:22:31
and is a huge, difficult,
and perhaps unachievable goal
00:22:39
anytime soon.
00:22:42
On the other hand, making
sure that the WHO works well
00:22:45
and that we have a
sufficient security trigger
00:22:52
when a pandemic or something else happens,
00:22:57
that is achievable and it
shouldn't be controversial,
00:23:00
it's just a matter of digging
and getting the work done.
00:23:04
When it comes to girls' education,
00:23:07
there may be cultural
resistance in some places
00:23:09
to actually getting it done,
but generally speaking,
00:23:13
there aren't that many folks
who will explicitly say,
00:23:20
I'm sorry, we don't wanna
educate our girls and women.
00:23:23
As a practical matter,
they may, you may see that
00:23:26
in certain countries, but at
the level of our multilateral
00:23:31
institutions, there should
be a broad consensus
00:23:34
and so what I would hope for is that
00:23:38
we come up with concrete plans
00:23:43
in those areas,
00:23:48
oftentimes with respect to the
sustainable development goals
00:23:52
are areas where there is a
consensus on at least the aims,
00:23:56
if not always the means,
and think about how can we
00:24:00
improve delivery systems,
how can we improve
00:24:02
their operations on a day-to-day basis.
00:24:05
But ultimately, the
last point I would make,
00:24:09
that requires leaders
to feel as if it matters
00:24:14
and is important.
00:24:17
That in turn requires the
public think that it matters
00:24:22
and is important because unfortunately,
00:24:26
what you discover is that most politicians
00:24:28
and elected leaders are
followers and not leaders.
00:24:33
They're called leaders, but
most of the time, they follow.
00:24:37
They see what do their
constituencies care about,
00:24:40
and they respond.
00:24:42
And one of the biggest challenges
that we've had is that,
00:24:47
and I speak most intimately
about the United States,
00:24:53
the general public responds
with enormous generosity
00:24:57
when they see a specific
story of a child who's hungry
00:25:02
or somebody who's been
stricken by a flood.
00:25:09
But when it comes to just a
general knowledge or interest
00:25:13
in development funding, not
only do they not know much,
00:25:20
but they oftentimes
have a negative reaction
00:25:25
because their view is,
we've got a lot of needs
00:25:27
here at home, why are we
sending money overseas?
00:25:30
Sadly, it is one of the
only areas where Democrats
00:25:33
and Republicans agree
in the United States,
00:25:35
is on foreign aid, and repeatedly,
00:25:39
you've seen public opinion
surveys where people
00:25:43
wildly overestimate what
we spend on foreign aid,
00:25:47
they think 25% of the federal budget
00:25:50
is going to foreign aid and helping people
00:25:55
other than folks in their
towns and their communities.
00:25:59
So the need for public education
in the ways we talked about
00:26:04
that tell a good story,
that point out that this
00:26:08
is actually a bargain,
that connect what we do
00:26:13
with respect to development to security,
00:26:17
not in a perfect
correlation, but to say that,
00:26:21
look, if you've got failed states,
00:26:23
then generally, some of
that's gonna spill over on us.
00:26:28
If you have economies that are failing,
00:26:31
ironically, if you are
concerned about immigration
00:26:35
and mass migration, it's
really a good investment
00:26:40
to make countries work
so that people can eat,
00:26:44
'cause then, it's not like
they're dying to get on a dinghy
00:26:48
and float across an ocean if the place,
00:26:53
the country where they
were born and they loved
00:26:56
was functioning, so
thinking about ways in which
00:27:01
we describe this, both as
an economic imperative,
00:27:07
a environmental imperative,
a security imperative,
00:27:13
the more we can influence public opinion,
00:27:16
the more you'll see politicians respond.
00:27:20
That doesn't mean that there
is not an enormous role
00:27:24
to play for NGOs,
philanthropy, and so forth,
00:27:27
but, and I've said this
to both Bill and Melinda,
00:27:33
even with the incredible generosity
00:27:35
and enormous skill with
which they've deployed
00:27:42
their resources over the years,
00:27:47
the US budget's still bigger.
00:27:49
- Absolutely, a lot bigger.
- A lot.
00:27:53
- This notion that you
can, that I hear sometimes
00:27:58
from young people, that you
can work around government
00:28:01
and work around politics
because it's too messy
00:28:03
or it's corrupt or it's, I
just don't like those folks
00:28:07
or what have you, I'm sorry,
guys, that's not gonna work.
00:28:13
If you wanna get done
what you're talking about,
00:28:17
you will have to combine
effective philanthropy
00:28:21
and technical know-how and
smart policy engineering
00:28:28
with getting your hands
dirty trying to change
00:28:31
public opinion and trying
to ensure that the people
00:28:35
who are in charge of the
levers of power are responsive.
00:28:40
And that will require
work and I guarantee you
00:28:43
you will be disappointed at points,
00:28:46
but what a glorious thing
it is to responsible
00:28:52
for saving the world,
that's your responsibility.
00:28:56
And ours.
Thanks.
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