00:00:00
[Music]
00:00:16
so we're talking
00:00:17
about the The Core Essence of a person
00:00:20
the image of God versus the masks that
00:00:23
we wear versus the the things that Avail
00:00:26
us and the way that we hide ourselves
00:00:27
and there are a lot of there actually a
00:00:30
lot of traditions that recognize the
00:00:31
difference between the the the real
00:00:34
person and something that's not the
00:00:36
person and they call it you the the
00:00:38
false self the Persona the personalities
00:00:40
you know Parts uh defense mechanisms um
00:00:44
a lot of things but we didn't fully uh
00:00:47
talk about uh what is actually like the
00:00:50
self other than saying it's the image of
00:00:52
God and that was actually something that
00:00:54
I was thinking as well trying to think
00:00:56
okay so so what is the true self what is
00:00:58
the the who who is the authentic self
00:01:00
you know we talk about I don't know it's
00:01:02
become this like pop culture you know
00:01:05
cliche thing of like yeah be your true
00:01:07
self be your authentic self and it
00:01:08
usually ends up you know depending on
00:01:11
how it's portrayed in Media or how it
00:01:12
gets done it usually ends up being like
00:01:14
you know you when you're really angry or
00:01:16
you you know sleeping around with
00:01:17
whoever you want to sleep around with or
00:01:19
something uh as your your true self
00:01:22
sometimes there's an artistic component
00:01:23
to it and there is a way that you know
00:01:25
art Artistry can bring out some deeper
00:01:28
portions of you but you know again I I
00:01:30
don't think we could rightly say any of
00:01:32
those are like like the fullness of who
00:01:34
you are so more of like the connection
00:01:38
in my head which you know like you know
00:01:40
those who know more you you know correct
00:01:41
me but if we're in the image of God and
00:01:43
and God is love well God is many things
00:01:46
and he's unknowable but like you know he
00:01:48
he tends to represent himself as as
00:01:50
being loved so I think okay so so what
00:01:52
so what is love then so St Paul sayth
00:01:56
love is patience love is kind love does
00:01:58
not envy or boast it's not not arrogant
00:02:00
or rude it does not insist on its own
00:02:02
way it's not irritable not resentful
00:02:05
doesn't Rejoice at wrongdoing but
00:02:06
rejoices at the truth love beares all
00:02:09
things believes all things hopes all
00:02:11
things endures all things it never ends
00:02:14
and there is a sense of uh you know I
00:02:17
talk about how you first we know in part
00:02:19
we prophesy in part um but later and you
00:02:23
know we see in the glass Darkly but we
00:02:24
come to see things more clearly so
00:02:26
there's a sense of clarity that is
00:02:28
developed and I think we we can look at
00:02:30
this is saying so that's what what what
00:02:33
is that describing it's not necessarily
00:02:35
like here's a here's a set of actions as
00:02:37
much as mindset as much as a a way of
00:02:40
being or just the overall structure of
00:02:43
what what what a personality might be so
00:02:45
you could say in one sense or I'm going
00:02:47
to start start the pin here and you we
00:02:50
could explore from there you know you
00:02:52
are your true self when you are being
00:02:55
patient when you're being kind when
00:02:56
you're longsuffering when you're seeing
00:03:00
less Darkly your mirror is less clouded
00:03:02
you're rejoicing with the truth you're
00:03:03
you're bearing all things believing all
00:03:05
things you're having hope there's
00:03:06
something you know love end doers so
00:03:09
there's something that's strong about it
00:03:12
too so so so kind of have a sense of
00:03:14
well if we're if we're looking for a
00:03:16
true self that that that might be a good
00:03:17
starting point this constellation of uh
00:03:20
qualities something about talking about
00:03:22
masks I think is really effective for
00:03:24
recognizing this isn't me this is an
00:03:26
extension of me something covering me
00:03:28
you not my true self but there there can
00:03:31
be maybe depending on my crazy brain a
00:03:33
way that you talking about masks can
00:03:35
almost have this like Sinister feel uh
00:03:37
or this you know necessarily like
00:03:40
unhealthy
00:03:41
feel sometimes talking about something
00:03:43
like a part you know talking about the
00:03:45
same thing might allow for something
00:03:47
like my cooking part I I I like to cook
00:03:50
that's nowhere near my true self uh it's
00:03:52
an extension to me you know when I cook
00:03:54
for people or for myself that's not
00:03:56
necessarily me trying to like avoid
00:03:58
intimacy or mask over pain it it's a
00:04:01
part of me uh it's some something that I
00:04:04
do or we might say it's an unburdened
00:04:06
part of me or it's it's a mask that's
00:04:08
not really like like a corrupted one you
00:04:10
know different than like when I get like
00:04:11
really angry or when I you know or when
00:04:14
I get really obsessive like that's
00:04:15
that's much more like there's problems
00:04:17
there but from a psychological
00:04:19
perspective we we say so so the parts of
00:04:21
us most of the time they start off
00:04:24
adaptive you know we we'd say our our
00:04:28
personality is the collection of overall
00:04:31
adaptations and responses we developed
00:04:33
to survive our
00:04:34
environments and we needed to survive
00:04:36
our environments so we needed all of
00:04:38
those things we don't still need most of
00:04:41
them and that's where we get into
00:04:43
trouble is some of these adaptations
00:04:45
some of these survival mechanisms get
00:04:46
just blown out of proportion or we start
00:04:49
to hold clean to them really tightly or
00:04:51
we start to think well I adapted you
00:04:55
know maybe my environment was there was
00:04:57
you know no emotional nurture there was
00:04:59
no parental investment there I didn't
00:05:01
have any friends and so in order to be
00:05:03
okay I had to tell myself I don't need
00:05:06
anybody and had to tell myself I'm okay
00:05:09
without people over and over and over
00:05:10
again until I until I believed it and I
00:05:13
got through childhood I figured out how
00:05:16
to study how to how to get a job how to
00:05:18
how to do my things and I'm fine with
00:05:22
that am I really fine well yeah but am I
00:05:26
thriving am I being all that I meant I
00:05:28
meant to be am I able to connect with
00:05:30
people am I able to grow am I able to
00:05:32
heal from things well no and so that
00:05:35
avoidant mechanism or that mechanism I
00:05:38
developed to avoid relationship Pain by
00:05:40
telling myself I don't need it what
00:05:42
started off as as good because it got me
00:05:44
through stuff and is is no longer good
00:05:48
that mask that I put on it's it's
00:05:50
corrosive now and so I need to then
00:05:53
become aware of it and recognize well
00:05:56
the the actual chumi is meant for
00:05:58
connection and not an obessive
00:06:00
connection but like a gentle connection
00:06:02
and so but only by first becoming aware
00:06:04
of oh I'm I'm wearing this mask and I
00:06:06
have this or I have this avoidant part
00:06:08
can I then begin to you know understand
00:06:10
it soften it you know Let it go try on
00:06:12
some other things so talking about
00:06:14
chapters four five and six lust shame
00:06:16
and fantasy fun topics so a couple brief
00:06:20
thoughts kicking off chapter 4 talking
00:06:22
about lust so um this is like mostly a
00:06:26
me summary not another quote um but I
00:06:28
could say a big idea in this chapter
00:06:31
lust or we could say in this case the
00:06:32
pursuit of pleasure is a way of masking
00:06:35
myself from others masking myself even
00:06:37
from my own pain the greatest pains are
00:06:40
in relationships so then naturally I'm
00:06:42
drawn to things that imitate what a
00:06:44
relationship
00:06:45
offers you know this book talks a lot
00:06:47
about pornography so the porn image in
00:06:49
particular there's imagery involved so
00:06:51
can kind of mimic what we need
00:06:54
relationally also the intensity of
00:06:56
pleasure rather than the nurturing of
00:06:58
intimacy that's an important distinction
00:07:00
to note when you go into an experience
00:07:02
or go into a relationship a lot of
00:07:04
people will confuse intimacy for
00:07:06
intensity the intensity of pleasure
00:07:08
they're not the same thing and as
00:07:10
Williams talks about true Purity or
00:07:12
healing is not found in eliminating the
00:07:14
desire like we've said the desires
00:07:16
themselves are not the bad things but in
00:07:18
transcending the desire to find the true
00:07:20
source of its meaning or the true thing
00:07:22
that we're Desiring the Neuroscience of
00:07:24
all of this is really fascinating
00:07:25
because something like alcohol something
00:07:28
like pornography you know it does
00:07:30
involve dopamine the the pleasure
00:07:31
hormone that our our body naturally
00:07:33
secretes you know we don't usually
00:07:36
become addicted to just like you know
00:07:38
broccoli and potatoes you know much of
00:07:40
they might like broccoli and potatoes
00:07:41
especially with a lot of butter and
00:07:43
garlic they're they're Pleasant they're
00:07:44
soothing but it doesn't give you that
00:07:46
what's the word that Spike of of
00:07:49
pleasure and so why you know why is
00:07:51
pornography addictive why is cannabis
00:07:52
addictive why is sugar addictive we we
00:07:55
have that experience of eating a lot of
00:07:56
sugar drinking a lot looking at pretty
00:07:59
images and there it it triggers you know
00:08:01
dopamine in our brain so so our our our
00:08:04
nervous system recognizes that it's
00:08:05
pleasurable but not just pleasurable the
00:08:08
so say the brain scientists when uh when
00:08:11
the the brain encounters something
00:08:13
deemed good for survival it tags it with
00:08:15
dopamine the idea is to help you
00:08:17
recognize it remember it and be drawn to
00:08:19
seek it out again you know you're you're
00:08:21
running around you know hunting
00:08:22
Gathering doing whatever our ancestors
00:08:24
are supposed that to have done you know
00:08:26
you're you're going to need a lot of
00:08:27
energy so you know something like like
00:08:29
like like berries or fruit you know it's
00:08:31
you know good for short-term energy so
00:08:33
it's you know brightly colored it's
00:08:34
sweet there's a little bit of a dopamine
00:08:35
kick the the idea is that that's
00:08:38
supposed to communicate to the brain I
00:08:40
am good for survival remember me here's
00:08:43
some pleasure to create the memory blah
00:08:46
blah blah and so goes from there and
00:08:48
then so say the people that you really
00:08:50
hold to the the disease model of
00:08:52
addiction you know the brain gets
00:08:53
hijacked and they say well so what about
00:08:56
cocaine you know cocaine you know gives
00:08:58
you a lot of dopamine is that good for
00:09:00
survival no no no no not at all but the
00:09:02
brain's been fooled into thinking that
00:09:04
and so there's that there's that
00:09:05
dopamine tag so so a lot of people will
00:09:07
do these really intense things we'll
00:09:10
have these sexual experiences we'll do
00:09:11
these drugs we'll eat the sugar we'll
00:09:14
you know Skydive whatever and we'll have
00:09:16
like these rushes of hormones and and
00:09:19
and you know that that'll get tagged in
00:09:20
our brains it's like hey that's good for
00:09:22
survival well I don't know why skydiving
00:09:24
in an ad journal in Rush is actually
00:09:25
good for survival but anyway yeah know
00:09:28
it's not a perfect pattern but but what
00:09:29
happens like like you're saying is you
00:09:32
there's the the brain is involved and
00:09:35
experiences that happen repeatedly start
00:09:39
the brain starts to form around those a
00:09:41
common you know maximum we say in the
00:09:42
counseling world is you know the the
00:09:44
neurons the nerve cells a fire together
00:09:47
wire together so the things that we do
00:09:49
often become easier to do more often
00:09:51
more likely to do more often you
00:09:53
including the thoughts we think the
00:09:54
feelings we feel uh and so then we get
00:09:57
Beyond just addiction but now dependence
00:09:59
you know physiological psychological
00:10:01
dependence and that's often where like
00:10:03
we see these really extreme cases of
00:10:05
like I'm doing this thing it's really
00:10:06
bad for me and I can't stop why can't I
00:10:08
stop it's not just I have you know
00:10:10
whatever childhood pain that I'm asking
00:10:12
but also my brain has now built itself
00:10:14
around this experience if we if we take
00:10:16
this discussion more the direction of
00:10:18
like you know what is addiction and then
00:10:20
how do we recover from it h yeah there
00:10:22
there's that
00:10:24
initial onslaught of like withdrawal
00:10:26
symptoms like anonia I don't care about
00:10:30
anything anymore uh I I can't feel you
00:10:33
know pleasure or Delight anymore um it's
00:10:37
it's not it's not always like you know
00:10:39
major depression as much as like
00:10:41
I'm I'm I'm me again I'm me without the
00:10:44
masks I'm me without the intensity and
00:10:46
that has to be gotten through and and a
00:10:48
major part of that is is again not just
00:10:51
not stopping at just abstinence but now
00:10:53
you know these these folks need to be
00:10:55
taught how to live and shown how to live
00:10:57
and they need Comm in which to do that
00:11:01
which is where we all come in as we get
00:11:03
we get to be that what so uh you you
00:11:06
brought up a point which I wanted to
00:11:08
talk about with this chapter and you
00:11:09
know so so you mentioned like you know
00:11:11
the trophy wife for the trophy
00:11:12
girlfriend talk about parents so it's a
00:11:15
parenting thing uh to have their Golden
00:11:18
Child so so The Golden Child the trophy
00:11:20
the trophy wife trophy husband you know
00:11:23
let's be fair so so what is going on
00:11:25
here what does it have to do with lust
00:11:27
so he talks a lot about idolatry
00:11:30
as part of it happens with masks and how
00:11:33
we can understand that is when I see the
00:11:36
person I'm not seeing the person I'm
00:11:38
seeing a mask and I really like that
00:11:41
mask and that's all I like about the
00:11:43
person and maybe that mask is their body
00:11:47
maybe it's their butt maybe it's an
00:11:49
aspect of their personality maybe it's
00:11:52
the way that my kid gets straight A and
00:11:54
is like a popular kid at school maybe
00:11:56
it's the way you know my you know
00:11:58
boyfriend husband husband is like really
00:12:00
rich and really attractive and really
00:12:01
social and gives me a lot of
00:12:02
opportunities but when we're relating to
00:12:05
people one of the major pitfalls or one
00:12:07
of the major obstacles to to relating to
00:12:09
people in an iconographic way
00:12:13
is not seeing the person and maybe not
00:12:16
even seeing the whole person not even
00:12:18
seeing more than one mask but just being
00:12:20
like or I'll I'll I'll I'll Cher pick my
00:12:23
my couple favorite parts of you fix it
00:12:26
on those expect and demand those not
00:12:29
welcome anything else and then basically
00:12:31
I've sliced and diced you to and and you
00:12:33
know objectified you that's not even
00:12:35
just talking about like you know sexual
00:12:37
relationships like I can do that in a
00:12:38
platonic relationship I can do that with
00:12:40
my kids I can do that with my parents so
00:12:43
so so so so Weir need to be really
00:12:45
really careful of that uh to to both
00:12:47
recognize when am I fixated on this or
00:12:49
that part of a person and the
00:12:51
counterpart that that we've been kind of
00:12:53
talking about too you know when do I
00:12:54
only let this person see a couple parts
00:12:56
of me you know I only let them see that
00:12:58
I am this cool prestigious counselor I
00:13:01
only let people see that I am the writer
00:13:03
I only let people see I have cool hair
00:13:05
you know if I get preoccupied with the
00:13:07
my own little parts then like I'm
00:13:09
breaking myself apart and then when a
00:13:11
couple parts me a couple other parts
00:13:12
it's just like you know part solid and
00:13:14
it's a disaster so so so think of here
00:13:18
both uh when do we bring ourselves out
00:13:22
and when do we hold back and also like
00:13:24
what do we do when we want to go deeper
00:13:27
but but other people don't so something
00:13:29
like that especially in in in church
00:13:31
spaces that's why you're starting to
00:13:34
talk in terms of how how williams will
00:13:36
talk about the veils um you masks
00:13:38
obscure they keep people out veils begin
00:13:41
to to to reveal so we could say like
00:13:44
like you know if we're thinking like
00:13:45
like the physical Church you know if I
00:13:47
you know lock and bar the gates you know
00:13:49
nobody can get in nobody can know
00:13:50
anything that that that that's a mask we
00:13:52
we open that and people get to come in
00:13:54
and they get to see okay so here's you
00:13:56
know whatever however the the boundary
00:13:58
between you know you know NX and nav is
00:14:00
you maybe it's like open double doors
00:14:02
maybe it's a window something something
00:14:03
you but but you can kind of see through
00:14:04
that you know person gets into the Nave
00:14:06
you know we can look in and see there's
00:14:09
the iconostasis and uh depending on the
00:14:12
design I can start to to peek through it
00:14:14
because it's not it's not a wall it's
00:14:17
not meant to prevent us from knowing
00:14:19
things but it's meant to show there is
00:14:21
something holy back here you know you
00:14:23
got even closer and Peak through you see
00:14:25
the child it's covered with a veil and
00:14:29
and again it's not meant to hide it as
00:14:31
meant just to designate there's
00:14:32
something very special very precious
00:14:34
here
00:14:36
and and not everyone will go there you
00:14:39
know not everyone will come to the
00:14:40
church at all you not everybody will
00:14:42
make it all the way into the Nave you
00:14:43
know not everybody will care what's in
00:14:44
the holy of holies and they think but
00:14:47
but for the people that do and and that
00:14:49
want to get close there's there's
00:14:52
nothing really keeping them out for from
00:14:54
knowing and maybe we can look at
00:14:56
ourselves that way too is to say well
00:14:59
there is something really good and
00:15:00
beautiful and precious in me you know my
00:15:02
story is worthwhile and is beautiful and
00:15:04
it is worth being told and it is good
00:15:06
for me to tell my story most of us don't
00:15:08
have a life context situation where we
00:15:11
need to broadcast it on on major
00:15:13
networks although some us do anyway
00:15:15
social media becomes an interesting
00:15:16
variable here but yeah but but even then
00:15:18
we can say okay so should I be posting
00:15:21
these super personal things like
00:15:22
unregulated on Facebook you know for me
00:15:25
it's an interesting experience because
00:15:27
you know given my work promoting a
00:15:29
clinic and I'd like to be a publish
00:15:30
writer there's kind of way way where
00:15:32
technically I'm supposed to be
00:15:33
developing an online following hence I'm
00:15:36
turning this into a podcast but that's
00:15:37
not a journal that's not me that's not
00:15:40
my confessional uh it's it's just very
00:15:42
curated here's my work here's my writing
00:15:45
here's my thoughts on recovery so it's
00:15:49
it it's a mask it's a mask version of me
00:15:51
that I'm putting out into the
00:15:53
unregulated masses of
00:15:55
humanity among my Parish I I let myself
00:15:58
be known more among my close friends I
00:16:00
let myself be known much more deeply
00:16:02
because like the the innermost parts to
00:16:04
me are are not for everybody they're for
00:16:06
people who demonstrate that they
00:16:09
can handle a holy thing in a holy way
00:16:12
and clearly to got there have been a a
00:16:15
good number of people in my life who
00:16:16
have done that and so I'm really
00:16:18
delighted that there's some people that
00:16:19
know me really deeply but not everybody
00:16:21
to your second point you know what do we
00:16:22
do with these communities that just want
00:16:24
these superficial relationships I feel
00:16:26
really frustrated about that too I think
00:16:28
I'm I'm noticing for me my life stage
00:16:31
like like I don't have like a lot of
00:16:32
time or energy for for things so I'm
00:16:35
like I don't want to waste time in my
00:16:36
relationships we're either going to be
00:16:38
deep friends or we're going to barely
00:16:40
talk but I'm unique and odd that way
00:16:42
some of that I think has to do with what
00:16:44
we in clinical circles called the stress
00:16:46
tolerance it maybe a better metaphor
00:16:49
would be like acclamation so if I grow
00:16:51
up in the desert and I'm used to heat
00:16:53
and Sun and Sand that's going to feel
00:16:56
like my normal if from growing up in the
00:16:58
Wilds of Arizona then I move up to like
00:17:01
Alaska where they have this thing called
00:17:04
snow and these really long Winters and
00:17:06
I've never seen that before you know my
00:17:08
first winter I'm going to hate it I'm
00:17:10
going to absolutely hate it and not be
00:17:12
able to handle it really well and I
00:17:14
might think I'm going to die I'm not the
00:17:16
weather the cold on its own is not going
00:17:17
to kill me and in fact if I stay up
00:17:20
there I will begin to acclimate I'll get
00:17:22
yeast to it I'll buy tons of wool and
00:17:25
just shroud myself in cloth all year and
00:17:29
I I I may still not like the cold but
00:17:31
I'll I'll come to realize it's not
00:17:33
killing me and I think emotions other
00:17:37
people's Parts other people's stories
00:17:39
are very much like that it's an active
00:17:42
will and it takes effort to get close to
00:17:43
someone and to hold a curious space for
00:17:47
who are you who's your story especially
00:17:49
if you're very different than me
00:17:50
especially if there's parts of you that
00:17:51
I find defensive and there probably are
00:17:54
you do something say something hold some
00:17:56
view that I find offensive it's
00:17:57
distressing to me and so then it becomes
00:18:00
laborious to be with you but if I do
00:18:03
that labor I can learn to see past that
00:18:06
offensive part to these really beautiful
00:18:07
parts and every now and then I've
00:18:10
actually done that it's kind of nice
00:18:11
it's tiring so I haven't done it as much
00:18:13
as I should but it is a possible thing
00:18:15
but it's I would say it's it's hard to
00:18:18
invite like a whole Community to do that
00:18:20
all at once people will only go as far
00:18:22
as they they're open to going you know
00:18:24
hopefully we as a culture can like
00:18:26
gradually grow a little bit more deeper
00:18:27
with each other
00:18:30
chapter five chapter five is talking
00:18:32
about Shame Shame is different than
00:18:34
guilt guilt is more of an objective
00:18:36
state of things shame is a mentality
00:18:38
that keeps me alone keeps me from
00:18:40
seeking connection seeks me shame in in
00:18:43
particular comes not just from a
00:18:46
ruptured relationship but the perceived
00:18:48
inability to repair it or return to the
00:18:50
other person which becomes especially
00:18:52
important uh for parents living without
00:18:54
relationship is untenable so again I
00:18:57
will seek something to both to either
00:18:59
imitate the relationship and or to mask
00:19:01
the pain orgo porn drugs other intense
00:19:05
things like we've been saying healing
00:19:07
comes through the Journey inward
00:19:09
mindfulness to to to know to know myself
00:19:12
to know the pain and the structured
00:19:15
reveal of self such such as in
00:19:17
confession or in like you know carefully
00:19:20
controlled settings again you know when
00:19:22
I when I'm in shame I'm I'm both
00:19:24
isolating and hiding myself and so the
00:19:27
move toward another person and revealing
00:19:29
tends to be the reversal o shame which
00:19:31
is hard and scary but it's it's a good
00:19:33
thing what I've observed is that the
00:19:36
most difficult part of recovery is not
00:19:37
actually quitting whatever the thing is
00:19:39
you you need to quit it's actually
00:19:41
facing up to the harmful impact you've
00:19:43
had on other people clinical terminology
00:19:45
for S that's really hard it's really
00:19:47
scary it's really uncomfortable and a
00:19:49
lot of people don't have any concept for
00:19:51
I can look at the bad I've done and
00:19:53
still be okay that can only be learned
00:19:55
through the experience of showing the
00:19:57
bad stuff and having people still be
00:19:59
okay with you hence group counseling and
00:20:02
why I tell all my clients you all need
00:20:04
to go to group counseling and you know
00:20:05
go to group um but that's uh that's my
00:20:07
tangent you're not your sin being sad
00:20:09
about your sin is not a bad thing it's a
00:20:11
healthy thing uh wallowing in it that's
00:20:14
not so good wallowing in it to the point
00:20:15
where I no longer approach people and I
00:20:18
don't take any action over it that's
00:20:20
shame that's unhealthy but saying I did
00:20:23
a bad thing that sucks I want you now do
00:20:25
something good that's what it's supposed
00:20:27
to be so like faced with the re you know
00:20:31
the possibility of I might actually
00:20:32
truly encounter like another person's
00:20:35
image or I might encounter like the
00:20:37
mercies of God there are parts of us
00:20:40
that shy away from that and maybe these
00:20:42
are like the broken the wounded the the
00:20:45
corrupted parts of us are the parts that
00:20:47
most need healing so I mean I mean it's
00:20:49
a really real thing a mindful course of
00:20:52
action could be to to recognize when
00:20:54
that's happening for yourself and maybe
00:20:56
even using language like I noticed
00:20:58
myself
00:20:59
shying away from God or I notice myself
00:21:02
feeling uncomfortable in the presence of
00:21:04
Love or I notice myself wanting to run
00:21:06
away if you've noticed it you've spotted
00:21:08
the mask and if you spotted The Mask
00:21:11
then you can pray the Jesus prayer and
00:21:15
now work to see past it or see other
00:21:19
than that mask and uh and begin to then
00:21:24
in some cases even like go against it
00:21:26
you know this being a shame mask that
00:21:27
says like you're ugly like go away like
00:21:30
hide yourself uh don't don't approach
00:21:33
the relationship stay away stay alone if
00:21:35
you can notice that's happening and
00:21:36
notice notice that you can begin to like
00:21:38
go against it and then like approach
00:21:40
somebody anyway one of my favorite parts
00:21:42
of Orthodox practice is a sacrament of
00:21:45
confession it is the anti- shame measure
00:21:48
because it is you revealing things about
00:21:50
yourself to God with the priest's
00:21:52
witness and it is for your healing it's
00:21:56
safe there and espe you know especially
00:21:57
if the priest is
00:21:59
hearing things and also holding space
00:22:00
for you part of what I love about that
00:22:02
too is when that's just part of liturgy
00:22:07
you know I mean here how anunciation was
00:22:09
set up at one point you know confessions
00:22:11
were happening like up on the ambon like
00:22:13
up in front of everybody and it was not
00:22:16
hyped up it was not talked about it was
00:22:18
not shamed it was just like a thing it
00:22:20
was just a normal part of things you
00:22:21
know you'd go venerate you go uh you go
00:22:23
up to confession you go back into the
00:22:24
Liturgy and everybody did it and
00:22:26
everybody knew that everybody did it and
00:22:28
everybody kind of expected that at some
00:22:29
way I'll see everybody knowing there and
00:22:31
at some way I'll be there and I always
00:22:32
got the sense that you know you know you
00:22:33
see somebody up in the confession line
00:22:35
and different than like you know you
00:22:37
back in Protestant Services they'd be
00:22:39
like you know if you essentially if
00:22:40
you've got extra problems go to the
00:22:42
prayer room we'll be there for you um
00:22:44
which you know did that sometimes uh but
00:22:46
it was always like really hyped up thing
00:22:48
I always get the sense you know you see
00:22:49
somebody in the confession in line it's
00:22:51
just like oh good they're doing what
00:22:52
they need go I'll go next or something
00:22:54
and just this very like calm gentle
00:22:57
we're just exposing ourselves it's a
00:22:58
normal part of what we do and we're good
00:23:01
part of what I love about like the
00:23:02
internal family systems you know model
00:23:05
of like talking about the person because
00:23:06
this is one where they use the parts so
00:23:08
they they talk about parts that act like
00:23:10
masks to protect us uh but then we
00:23:13
recognize there are other parts that we
00:23:15
call them Exiles they're the parts of us
00:23:17
that are not allowed to be seen we're
00:23:19
taught somewhere you know don't show
00:23:22
this part to the world and in some cases
00:23:24
like you're saying like don't even
00:23:25
acknowledge this part in your own self
00:23:27
this uh what I I've noticed this a lot
00:23:29
for people working through uh recovery
00:23:32
from sexual addiction they they kind of
00:23:33
quickly get the sense of like I
00:23:35
shouldn't go like look at you know
00:23:36
pictures of naked people uh but then
00:23:38
they start thinking like I shouldn't
00:23:39
even have any sexual thoughts at all if
00:23:41
I have a sexual thought that's bad bad
00:23:42
bad bad thought and so they end up
00:23:45
exiling that whole part of them
00:23:46
themselves and they won't acknowledge I
00:23:47
have sexual desire I have desire I have
00:23:49
needs and there's a lot of reasons for
00:23:51
that but they they have exiled part of
00:23:53
themselves even out of their own
00:23:54
awareness which always ends up being a
00:23:56
problem because it's still there that
00:23:58
wound is still there and it will surface
00:24:00
you know somewhere else uh in some other
00:24:03
way usually in a bigger way but yes
00:24:05
that's a really important aspect of this
00:24:07
to remember yeah and it's it's a very
00:24:09
fun line for parents because as we're
00:24:11
raising these humans you know we I I
00:24:14
would say if we can
00:24:16
avoid shaming or exiling being parts of
00:24:19
our kids like that that we' be great but
00:24:21
at the same time we also have to teach
00:24:23
our kids you know we can't condone
00:24:24
everything that they do or every part of
00:24:26
the personality like know one of my kids
00:24:29
you know part of his personality right
00:24:30
now is like walking through the house
00:24:31
just making like random abrasive noises
00:24:33
you know so okay so he has this abrasive
00:24:35
noise part great we love him we we can
00:24:37
say we we love that part of you outside
00:24:40
you know so so there's room for a
00:24:43
teaching and a shaping and a maturing
00:24:46
but yes it's it's just extremely
00:24:48
extremely fine line
00:24:59
I'm still growing in my own life and
00:25:01
practice so I want to be careful with
00:25:04
with this answer
00:25:06
and remain in deference to what your
00:25:10
priest would say what the holy Elder
00:25:11
would say because they they they know
00:25:13
the spiritual World in ways that I don't
00:25:16
I know the clinical World moderately
00:25:18
well if we as if uh I believe in
00:25:21
Orthodoxy we we have this idea that our
00:25:23
thoughts come to us that that they don't
00:25:25
actually originate with us which is
00:25:26
different than how a lot of psychology
00:25:29
systems work if that's the case and if
00:25:31
we can say this thought's coming to me
00:25:33
especially if it's like a lustful
00:25:34
thought or like one of our passions you
00:25:36
starts coming to us if that's the case
00:25:39
then yes you cutting it off not letting
00:25:40
it in is a good approach even with that
00:25:43
though part of what we we can do though
00:25:46
is I don't know so so using you know so
00:25:49
it's it's me it's 11 you know 48 p.m.
00:25:54
I'm really tired I'm online that's a bad
00:25:56
combination uh so I get this out of that
00:25:59
you should look up such and and such and
00:26:01
such and like you know Blitz your mind
00:26:02
out of this and this and that um so
00:26:04
that's a thought coming to me I
00:26:07
can well what I should do is take action
00:26:09
just close enough and go to bed maybe
00:26:11
that's a okay but anyway so that
00:26:13
thought's coming to me I could say oh I
00:26:15
hate that thought try not to think about
00:26:17
that thought don't think about that
00:26:18
don't think about that you know
00:26:19
batteries batteries you shouldn't be
00:26:20
thinking about that and I can dialog and
00:26:22
fight it and struggle with it and that
00:26:23
kind of just makes it worse because I've
00:26:25
recognized that's a bad thing I need to
00:26:27
get that bad thing out
00:26:29
or I can do like like the airplane
00:26:32
circling over the head thing and just
00:26:33
kind of recognize I'm being tempted I'm
00:26:36
having that thought and if I've done
00:26:38
some previous like reflection I can
00:26:40
recognize that thought's here it's this
00:26:42
time at night I need to go to bed and
00:26:44
just like act on it and just like do do
00:26:46
what's good and so in that case you kind
00:26:49
of like cut it off at the root by just
00:26:51
noticing it and turning away from it and
00:26:54
that would be similar I think to some
00:26:57
some mindfulness of approaches will just
00:26:59
say like hey you've got this thing just
00:27:01
like kind of notice that and in the
00:27:04
counseling setting when we say just
00:27:05
notice that that's a really gentle like
00:27:08
curiosity based move we're just like
00:27:09
kind of observing just playing like the
00:27:11
gentle the neutral Observer way and say
00:27:14
like oh I noticed that there's you know
00:27:16
a painting of some water lilies over
00:27:17
there cool I don't have to do anything
00:27:20
about that I could like fixate on it and
00:27:23
like talk about it and like try and drag
00:27:25
it over here and whatever or I can just
00:27:27
be like oh that's cool and then go on
00:27:30
with my business and probably like
00:27:32
taking that approach to the passions and
00:27:35
the way we're thoughts is probably more
00:27:38
where we're we're safe we're just like
00:27:40
not engaging with it let's talk about
00:27:42
fantasy for a little bit because it is
00:27:43
getting late but I wanted to talk about
00:27:46
this so so so whereas like lust becomes
00:27:50
a way of using like the pursuit of
00:27:52
pleasure as as a mask and whereas shame
00:27:54
is something that just like isolates us
00:27:55
from people together fantasy is
00:27:57
something that connects me from reality
00:27:59
altogether like all sorts of reality
00:28:01
fantasy is very tied up with the
00:28:02
association very tied up with this you
00:28:04
know we say I'm fixated on this
00:28:06
particular part of a person and when I
00:28:08
like detach this part of a person from
00:28:10
the person it becomes an unreal thing
00:28:13
and so if I'm fixated on this thing that
00:28:15
I love about this person or this thing
00:28:16
that I hate about this person you know
00:28:17
I'm in fantasy because I'm not connected
00:28:19
to the whole person I'm not connected to
00:28:20
reality so I'm going to say if if
00:28:23
fantasy is an active thing if I'm
00:28:25
actively fantasizing and disconnecting
00:28:27
myself from reality
00:28:29
the counter to Fantasy is
00:28:32
curiosity when I become curious and
00:28:35
interested and wondering and I want to
00:28:37
move toward an encounter and no more
00:28:40
fantasy is completely undone not not not
00:28:43
right away but like that that becomes
00:28:45
the reversal of it because I'm wanting
00:28:47
to be in reality maybe in my reality
00:28:50
maybe in your reality but I'm wanting to
00:28:52
encounter things as they are and it has
00:28:54
to be learned it has to be discovered
00:28:56
but if I'm able to actively cultivate a
00:28:59
sense of curiosity and a and and
00:29:02
favoring reality a desire for what is
00:29:04
real then I'm on the right track so I
00:29:08
kind of hinted a little bit talking
00:29:09
about you know see seeing seeing this
00:29:11
painting but um the the visual I use is
00:29:13
soag you're you're in a museum and
00:29:16
here's a sculpture of something
00:29:20
and uh so if I'm being if my critical
00:29:25
mask is on I might say oh I don't like
00:29:27
it or I might say you know I might start
00:29:30
to critique it you know talk about
00:29:31
what's good or bad about it if my super
00:29:33
nerdy History part is out I'm like well
00:29:35
this statue is reminiscent of such and
00:29:37
such and bar something something
00:29:40
whatever I might just like go off and
00:29:41
like not really see not really see it
00:29:43
I'm like seeing something else or if I'm
00:29:46
like the obsessive possessive collector
00:29:48
might be like I must have this statue
00:29:50
you know but the the curiosity is that
00:29:54
considering and that wondering and that
00:29:58
starts with the noticing oh I notice
00:30:00
that I'm interested in moving toward it
00:30:02
seeing more of it and just observing it
00:30:06
and just considering it it's gentle it
00:30:08
has no agenda it doesn't own it it
00:30:11
doesn't react to it it doesn't need to
00:30:13
do anything all it needs to do is be
00:30:14
present with it and maybe maybe have
00:30:18
have a sense of wonder about it and
00:30:21
here's where the metaphor breaks down
00:30:22
you know if it's a person wanting to now
00:30:25
connect with the person and be with the
00:30:27
person and more more about them so it's
00:30:30
different than interrogation
00:30:31
interrogation has Force it's different
00:30:33
than like an aversion you aversion
00:30:34
doesn't move toward so but it's that
00:30:37
it's that gentle curiosity that just you
00:30:40
know soft openhearted awareness that is
00:30:43
the complete opposite of
00:30:45
fantasy and when we can cultivate that
00:30:48
and then we can also bring in the Jesus
00:30:50
prayer be like oh here's this beautiful
00:30:52
he this beautiful person Lord have mercy
00:30:53
on this person Lord have mercy on me uh
00:30:55
and then we can go to about our day or
00:30:57
we can move in deeper but curiosity
00:30:59
becomes a juncture but we should not go
00:31:02
on into Infinity because it is it is
00:31:03
about that time and we've said a lot of
00:31:05
words so I will wrap us there there's
00:31:07
lots of great thoughts so next week
00:31:09
we'll be here with chapter 78 and N I do
00:31:12
hope to kind of diverge a little bit
00:31:14
from the book because he doesn't
00:31:16
specifically talk as much about you know
00:31:17
how to parents talk to the kids about
00:31:19
this but I do want to make that a part
00:31:20
of this so I do want to spend some time
00:31:22
next week specifically talking around
00:31:24
hey for us who might someday educate a
00:31:27
kid about about you know sex sexuality
00:31:29
Etc like what are some considerations so
00:31:32
I'd like to bring that in in next week
00:31:34
as well as the next chapters so we'll
00:31:36
we'll see if we pull it off you're all
00:31:38
welcome to be there in some form it's
00:31:40
great to see all good night to you
00:31:42
onliners thank you for being here
00:31:45
[Music]
