98 Y.O. British Solider Reveals TRUTH about India’s Partition | James M. Neilson
الملخص
TLDRL'interview aborde les récits d'un ancien soldat britannique qui a servi en Inde pendant l'indépendance du pays. Âgé de 98 ans, il partage ses expériences et perspectives sur la partition de l'Inde, qu'il attribue à Muhammad Ali Jinnah et à une précipitation de la Grande-Bretagne à quitter l'Inde. Il évoque ses conflits intérieurs en tant que jeune homme ayant appris à tuer en tant que soldat et son évolution vers la médecine pour sauver des vies. L'interviewé offre une perspective unique sur des événements historiques mais tragiques comme le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh, qu'il décrit comme une "terrible erreur". Il exprime aussi un grand respect pour Gandhi, Mandela, et Martin Luther King, et montre une grande admiration pour le rôle pacifique de Gandhi pendant la lutte pour l'indépendance. Quant à la partition de l'Inde, il critique la division rapide et sans subtilité décidée par les Britanniques et Jinnah, créant de nombreuses tensions entre l'Inde et le Pakistan qui perdurent, notamment au Cachemire. Il réfléchit également à la question de la couronne britannique et aux espoirs de voir des objets comme le diamant Kohinoor retournés à l'Inde. L'interview aborde des nuances personnelles, comme regretter des incidents violents auxquels il a dû prendre part pendant les émeutes, et finalement, il plaide pour la tolérance et le dialogue pour résoudre les conflits modernes, inspiré par sa transformation culturelle après son temps en Inde.
الوجبات الجاهزة
- 🇮🇳 L'interviewé a servi en Inde pendant l'indépendance et a une perspective unique sur cette époque.
- ❌ Il critique la partition de l'Inde comme étant précipitée par les Britanniques et Jinnah.
- 🕊️ Admire profondément Gandhi pour sa philosophie de paix.
- 💎 Le retour du Kohinoor est un sujet sensible mais peu probable, selon lui.
- 🔫 Témoigne de son passage d'une mentalité militaire à une carrière médicale.
- 🇵🇰 Évoque la complexité politique derrière la création du Pakistan.
- ⚔️ Souligne le sentiment de sécurité ressenti en Inde malgré les circonstances.
- 🗺️ Critique l'absence de frontières claires lors de la partition, causant les problèmes au Cachemire.
- 🤝 Plaide pour la tolérance et le dialogue comme moyens de résoudre les conflits.
- 🎓 Met en avant l'éducation comme outil d'évolution personnelle post-service militaire.
الجدول الزمني
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
La partition de l'Inde est un sujet de débat, avec la responsabilité partagée entre la Grande-Bretagne et Muhammad Ali Jinnah. L'Inde voulait son indépendance immédiate, mais la séparation rapide a laissé des problèmes comme le conflit au Cachemire. Subash Chandra Bose a aussi joué un rôle important avec son approche militaire distincte de celle de Gandhi.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
L'influence de l'Empire britannique sur les écoliers écossais est décrite, soulignant un sentiment de droit et l'importance du service à la couronne. Cela a guidé de nombreux jeunes hommes, comme l'interlocuteur, vers des carrières militaires.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale, l'interlocuteur s'engage dans l'armée indienne. Il raconte comment son éducation l'avait porté à croire à la supériorité britannique, mais ses interactions avec les soldats indiens ont changé ses perspectives, le rendant plus empathique envers leur culture et leurs compétences.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Une expérience en Birmanie où un médecin sauve un soldat indien blessé change profondément la perspective de l'interlocuteur sur la vie et la destruction, initiant sa transition d'une formation guerrière à une vocation de sauvetage.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Il parle de l'impact de Subash Chandra Bose et des divergences entre la vision pacifique de Gandhi et celle militaire de Bose. L'interlocuteur critique le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh par les Britanniques comme une grave erreur.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
L'attitude changeante de l'interlocuteur envers la domination britannique et son admiration grandissante pour Gandhi, dont la philosophie l’influence profondément. Il se remémore le climat après l'assassinat de Gandhi en 1948, voyant l'Inde se diriger vers l'autonomie.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Discussions sur la partition rapide et mal planifiée de l'Inde, blâmant à la fois la décision britannique précipitée et Jinnah pour le Pakistan séparé, ce qui a mené à des tensions durables comme celles au Cachemire.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
L'interlocuteur partage des sentiments mitigés sur la monarchie britannique, reconnaissant son rôle dans la culture et la politique britannique tout en questionnant sa pertinence moderne. Il loue la démocratie malgré ses défis.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
Sentiments sur les relations internationales actuelles, exprimant des inquiétudes sur les politiques de leaders comme Donald Trump et leur impact potentiel sur la démocratie. Il exprime le besoin pressant de maintenir des alliances internationales.
- 00:45:00 - 00:54:50
L'interlocuteur termine avec une réflection personnelle sur la tolérance et la communication comme moyens de résolution de conflits, tout en reconnaissant des erreurs passées qu'il regrette. Son vécu en Inde l'a profondément transformé, le menant vers une carrière médicale pour sauver des vies plutôt que de les prendre.
الخريطة الذهنية
فيديو أسئلة وأجوبة
Ce podcast parle-t-il de l'histoire de l'indépendance de l'Inde ?
Oui, la discussion couvre l'époque de l'Inde pré-indépendante et post-indépendante.
Qui est responsable de la partition de l'Inde, selon l'interviewé ?
Il pense que la partition a été précipitée par la Grande-Bretagne et Muhammad Ali Jinnah.
Quel âge a l'interviewé et quelle est sa perspective ?
Il a 98 ans et a une perspective de l'époque coloniale britannique en Inde.
Quelle était l'atmosphère en Inde après l'assassinat de Gandhi ?
La situation était chaotique avec tensions et violence après la disparition de Gandhi.
Quelle est l'opinion de l'interviewé sur Mahatma Gandhi ?
L'interviewé admire Gandhi pour son pacifisme et son leadership.
Quelle est l'opinion de l'interviewé sur Narendra Modi ?
Il croit que Narendra Modi est préoccupé par l'avenir de l'Inde mais peut être autoritaire.
Est-ce que l'interviewé a rencontré Mahatma Gandhi ?
Non, il n'a jamais rencontré Gandhi personnellement.
Comment l'interviewé décrit-il le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh ?
Le massacre de Jallianwala Bagh est décrit comme une terrible erreur des Britanniques.
Quel a été le rôle de l'interviewé pendant son temps en Inde ?
L'interviewé a servi en Inde et donne sa perspective sur les soldats indiens et la partition.
La question du retour du diamant Kohinoor est-elle discutée ?
Oui, il adresse brièvement la question, mais n'apporte pas de réponses nouvelles.
عرض المزيد من ملخصات الفيديو
- 00:00:00who do you think is responsible for
- 00:00:01India's partition Britain and Muhammad
- 00:00:04Ali Jenna India wanted immedate
- 00:00:06Independence Britain wanted immediately
- 00:00:08out of India so the two came together
- 00:00:10unfortunately it was done too quickly
- 00:00:12for some
- 00:00:14reason wanted a separate
- 00:00:19Pakistan they would also left India in a
- 00:00:23very bad situation instead of trying to
- 00:00:25figure this out what are we going to do
- 00:00:27who they just drew a line now look at
- 00:00:30the problem in Kashmir today both
- 00:00:32countries are fighting about all the
- 00:00:34time
- 00:00:38Hindustan
- 00:00:40sik marata
- 00:00:42Raj did you know anything about subash
- 00:00:45chra Jihan J Massacre I think it was a a
- 00:00:50dreadful Dreadful incident and a
- 00:00:52terrible terrible mistake should never
- 00:00:55have happened you want two things to
- 00:00:57happen do I want I Liv 103 years old and
- 00:01:00I want to see Donald Trump in jail when
- 00:01:03are we getting the go you won't you
- 00:01:05should but you won't anything about
- 00:01:08Narendra Modi I think he is
- 00:01:11um you can be honest I have to give a
- 00:01:15lot to India for my whole being it was
- 00:01:17India which changed me it made me grow
- 00:01:19up grow up is there anything in your
- 00:01:21life that you have regretted one of them
- 00:01:24was again in
- 00:01:27India I'm not short
- 00:01:35Zab so this is one of the most rarest
- 00:01:38moments of my life because I think
- 00:01:41growing up we have read in history about
- 00:01:44India struggle to Independence yes and
- 00:01:47from the Freedom Fighters perspective
- 00:01:49but for the first time people are going
- 00:01:52to know from the British side of the
- 00:01:54perspective as well somebody who was
- 00:01:56there during the India's independence
- 00:01:58and has seen the partition himself s so
- 00:02:00I'm really very excited for this
- 00:02:02conversation sir um before we get into
- 00:02:06like all the details where did it start
- 00:02:08and you know how did you see everything
- 00:02:10unfold in front of your own eyes how old
- 00:02:13are you I am in my 98 year 98 years yes
- 00:02:20so pretty much what we are going to talk
- 00:02:21about today is happened somewhere around
- 00:02:2480 years ago mhm in your perspective yes
- 00:02:27that's correct so can you take us back
- 00:02:28like uh because you started well I can
- 00:02:32take you back to my start in Scotland
- 00:02:34yes I was born in Scotland and and
- 00:02:36during the Depression and my father died
- 00:02:39when I was very young what year was that
- 00:02:431926 27 okay and um my father died when
- 00:02:47I was 2 years old so my mother was left
- 00:02:50alone with myself my brother fortunately
- 00:02:53her grandfather had been a bit ahead of
- 00:02:54his time and had insisted that his
- 00:02:57children the girls be educated as as
- 00:02:59well as the boys so she was able to get
- 00:03:02a good teaching position which was able
- 00:03:04to sustain us during the Depression MH
- 00:03:07um but at that time as you know Britain
- 00:03:11was at the Zenith of its power it was
- 00:03:13the world power of the time in the 1920s
- 00:03:171930s and I grew up with a very
- 00:03:20different attitude then than I have now
- 00:03:23for example when you went to school in
- 00:03:26every classroom there was a huge big map
- 00:03:29of the world and of course about half of
- 00:03:31it was painted red Australia New Zealand
- 00:03:34India Burma
- 00:03:36Malaya all the islands in the Pacific
- 00:03:39and the Mediterranean and so on so um in
- 00:03:44front of the map was also a picture of
- 00:03:46the King King George V F who was always
- 00:03:49a little bit worried looking and dressed
- 00:03:52in a magnificent uniform and his Queen
- 00:03:55Mary was always very upright and stable
- 00:03:57and stayed and sober so you knew with a
- 00:04:00king you were adequately protected with
- 00:04:02the queen you were morly protected and
- 00:04:05beside them was a picture of Lord benen
- 00:04:07Paul with a cross unions Jacks and so
- 00:04:10you knew where honor and Duty lay your
- 00:04:12duty was to the king in the country and
- 00:04:14to Britain and of course at that time
- 00:04:16growing up with that atmosphere you you
- 00:04:19began to believe that the world was in
- 00:04:22its correct British orbit yeah that's
- 00:04:24the way it should be because we British
- 00:04:27there somewhere felt Superior
- 00:04:30a feeling to feel Superior well not a
- 00:04:32feeling of superiority but a feeling of
- 00:04:34entitlement entitlement entitlement we
- 00:04:37We're British we own three quarters of
- 00:04:39the world therefore we are entitled to
- 00:04:41whatever we can do yeah that was a basic
- 00:04:43attitude when you grew up as a child
- 00:04:45yeah and of course uh unlike the
- 00:04:48American children who are always God
- 00:04:49blessing America and clutching the flag
- 00:04:52and so on we did not do any of that but
- 00:04:55it was much more invasive in a way more
- 00:04:58pervasive because you kind of absorbed
- 00:05:02it as you moved along it was with you
- 00:05:04wherever you went your duty lay to the
- 00:05:07king and the queen in the country and
- 00:05:09and the Britain generally so you grew up
- 00:05:11with that attitude all the way through
- 00:05:13your life right and was that the reason
- 00:05:16that also got you instigated towards
- 00:05:19joining British Army well at that time
- 00:05:22um I I wanted as a I mean a boy always
- 00:05:26wants to be something active a policeman
- 00:05:28a fireman a sold or whatever so I I
- 00:05:31wanted to be a soldier at that time
- 00:05:34growing up as a young boy how old were
- 00:05:35you at that time well you know growing
- 00:05:38up all the 1930s it was 14 12 13 14 you
- 00:05:42know up till 1939 MH and of course um
- 00:05:46the war came in 1939 and I was 13 or 14
- 00:05:49years old and so at that time you felt
- 00:05:53obligated to do something towards the
- 00:05:56the the the war the war effort yeah so I
- 00:06:01joined the the Army cadetes at that time
- 00:06:04and of course you were therefore told
- 00:06:06how to sh to shown how to shoot rifles
- 00:06:09and throw grenades and shoot machine
- 00:06:12guns and so on and so from the age of
- 00:06:15about 13 on up till the age of 17 I was
- 00:06:19in the Army cadetes being taught how how
- 00:06:21to basically injure and kill people
- 00:06:24that's what the the attitude at the time
- 00:06:27was because you were in a war of of
- 00:06:30survival right and um when I was at
- 00:06:33school by the age of um
- 00:06:3716 there was an officer from the Indian
- 00:06:39army came around all the major schools
- 00:06:41in Britain to try to get young men to
- 00:06:44join the Indian army and I thought at
- 00:06:47that time I was 16 and a half I thought
- 00:06:49my this is a great opportunity I will
- 00:06:52volunteer to join the Indian army MH and
- 00:06:55of course you must understand I had been
- 00:06:57brought up with the attitude of ruad K
- 00:07:00with all the jingoistic poems and
- 00:07:02stories of Kim and and Jungle Book and
- 00:07:05all the rest of it and so you had a firm
- 00:07:08belief in the rightness of things
- 00:07:11British um so when he came around and
- 00:07:15and and made this suggestion to try to
- 00:07:17join the Indian army I I thought this is
- 00:07:19a great idea mhm so which I
- 00:07:22did I was taken to London I was
- 00:07:24interviewed in London I spent a week
- 00:07:26down there where you had to set
- 00:07:28examinations you you were physically
- 00:07:30examined you were given intelligence
- 00:07:32tests and all the rest of it and then
- 00:07:34the decision was made whether you were
- 00:07:36accepted as a Cadet into the Indian army
- 00:07:38or not okay and fortunately I managed to
- 00:07:41pass that but I left school before I sat
- 00:07:45the final leaving examination so I had
- 00:07:49no uh academic
- 00:07:51qualifications other than what I already
- 00:07:54had but I had no official qualifications
- 00:07:57when I left school
- 00:07:59and um I was then taken into the British
- 00:08:02army initially for the first few months
- 00:08:04of training and then sent to India in
- 00:08:07early
- 00:08:081944 to Bangalore to the officer Cadet
- 00:08:12training school in Bangalore and how old
- 00:08:14were you when you landed in I was 17
- 00:08:17years old 17 years old 17 and a half
- 00:08:20years old yes amazing when I when I
- 00:08:22landed in India that's right I was
- 00:08:24commissioned by the age of
- 00:08:2618 uh uh to the sixth gr arrival
- 00:08:30mhm and as you know at that time in
- 00:08:32India there were many different um
- 00:08:34regiments of different
- 00:08:36peoples I'll try and speak in uru for a
- 00:08:40little Hindustan
- 00:08:43Hindustan
- 00:08:46um
- 00:08:50mik marata
- 00:08:53rajut is the
- 00:08:57uh um pton
- 00:09:02ponon
- 00:09:05M they spoke their own language spoke
- 00:09:07their own
- 00:09:19language
- 00:09:22okay that's when you started learning
- 00:09:24uru that's exactly you had to learn the
- 00:09:27one language because all the different
- 00:09:30anybody can understand yeah that's right
- 00:09:32every different regiment spoke different
- 00:09:33languages right so they had to have one
- 00:09:36language which they all spoke and that
- 00:09:38was U and that was uru so when you
- 00:09:42graduated as an officer you had to pass
- 00:09:44the examination U and at that time
- 00:09:52um I'm pretty sure you're speaking
- 00:09:55better than L AB be Mir would do
- 00:10:06um AA or asan aanan is like it's not
- 00:10:11complex is not asan asan means simple
- 00:10:17oh see the words that you're saying even
- 00:10:19I don't know the meaning of
- 00:10:21that difficult difficult yeah
- 00:10:27difficult that is Maybe because you're
- 00:10:29not speaking regularly which which we
- 00:10:31were talking okay so we stop no no you
- 00:10:33can speak anytime in between because I
- 00:10:35love it the way that but it's not you
- 00:10:37must it's not very good now but a sal
- 00:10:40sal yeah yeah okay so how was it working
- 00:10:43along with other Indian soldiers well
- 00:10:47what what you've got to realize um when
- 00:10:50you go with this attitude of not
- 00:10:53superior but entitlement and an agree of
- 00:10:55degree of
- 00:10:57superiority you look upon people
- 00:10:59differently so you don't actually you
- 00:11:02don't look down on them but you look
- 00:11:04them as being a little bit different
- 00:11:06different kind of like the Indian cast
- 00:11:09system where you're all human beings but
- 00:11:13you treat it differently you're treated
- 00:11:16exactly so in a kind of a way that was
- 00:11:19the attitude of the British officer at
- 00:11:21the
- 00:11:22time but once you got to the regiment
- 00:11:25you began to
- 00:11:27realize that people were very similar to
- 00:11:31yourself they were very very good people
- 00:11:34they were excellent Soldiers the Indian
- 00:11:37soldier was an excellent Soldier and
- 00:11:39that's my honest
- 00:11:41opinion um so as you as you developed
- 00:11:46you began to realize that this this
- 00:11:49difference in superiority did not really
- 00:11:52truly exist mhm and um in a way though
- 00:11:57there was a great deal of respect
- 00:11:59between the British officer and the
- 00:12:02Indian soldier mhm and vice versa there
- 00:12:05was a great respect from the Indian
- 00:12:07soldier to the British officer so there
- 00:12:10was a communion of spirit in the whole
- 00:12:12Army shall we say which was unique did
- 00:12:16that change your perspective about India
- 00:12:18it changed my perspective totally from
- 00:12:22my initial attitude of
- 00:12:24superiority to one of equinity and E
- 00:12:29evenness when you were working alongside
- 00:12:31other when I was working particularly
- 00:12:33with Indian soldiers I began to realize
- 00:12:36these these people were very good people
- 00:12:40were very um excellent in all the things
- 00:12:44that they did and so my attitude changed
- 00:12:46remarkably over time but you must
- 00:12:49realize I was I went to India as a very
- 00:12:52young man my my
- 00:12:55Jaan so as a young man you're more
- 00:12:58interested in in immediate
- 00:13:01gratifications you know parties and
- 00:13:04whatnot but it takes a little time for
- 00:13:08the cultures of India the many different
- 00:13:11cultures to sort of seep in and begin to
- 00:13:14change you and so it took really the
- 00:13:17four years that I was in India before I
- 00:13:19began to realize just how profound the
- 00:13:22country was can you um State any kind of
- 00:13:26a story or an experience which made a
- 00:13:28big impact in your life life related to
- 00:13:31what you were doing and that changed
- 00:13:32your perspective altogether during the
- 00:13:34latter part of the war I was in Burma
- 00:13:37fortunately I missed most of the war I
- 00:13:38only got into the very end of it okay
- 00:13:41and the the enemy dman Japan yeah B Bame
- 00:13:47so actually um May mhm now when I was
- 00:13:53there we were stationed beside um a
- 00:13:56field hospital I was in the Infantry but
- 00:13:59the the field hospital was stationed
- 00:14:01near us and some of the doctors came to
- 00:14:03eat with us and one of them said would
- 00:14:06you like to come and watch an
- 00:14:08operation so I thought well what the
- 00:14:11hell nothing to lose I'll go and I went
- 00:14:14and watched uh there was an Indian
- 00:14:16soldier who had been shot in the head
- 00:14:18and this um he was a neurosurgeon was
- 00:14:21operating on him to take the bullet out
- 00:14:25and for the first time in my life
- 00:14:29I began to realize I had been taught
- 00:14:32from the age of 13 up until now how to
- 00:14:35kill and injure people and here was a
- 00:14:39man who was doing exactly the opposite
- 00:14:42he was being he had been trained how to
- 00:14:45save people now it didn't hit like a
- 00:14:48bullet it didn't just suddenly say oh
- 00:14:50this is wonderful but somehow or another
- 00:14:52it filtered into my
- 00:14:54personality that there's other ways of
- 00:14:57living rather than this
- 00:15:00total attitude towards Warfare so that
- 00:15:03was one of the experiences I did have
- 00:15:06and especially like I think U the war
- 00:15:09which happened in Burma was one of the
- 00:15:12biggest challenges and also like Indian
- 00:15:14soldiers performed very well during that
- 00:15:16the Indian soldier was the main
- 00:15:17background of the Army in in BMA at that
- 00:15:20time under General slim and most of the
- 00:15:24soldiers were Indian right there were
- 00:15:26some British soldiers but mainly it was
- 00:15:28Indian like in fact there were 2.5
- 00:15:30million Indian soldiers exactly there
- 00:15:32were 2.5 million Indian soldiers that's
- 00:15:34right and there was also mind you the
- 00:15:36Indian national Army under sub Chandra
- 00:15:39BOS you know that one of this is one of
- 00:15:42the most asked question by the audience
- 00:15:44before coming before doing this podcast
- 00:15:47you know what I usually do I go to my
- 00:15:49Instagram stories and I ask people what
- 00:15:52one question do you want me to ask guest
- 00:15:54today and the most question was about
- 00:15:58did you know anything about subash
- 00:16:00Chandra BOS
- 00:16:02Jan May um subat Chandra BOS had been in
- 00:16:07the British AR had been in the Indian
- 00:16:09army had been captured by the Japanese
- 00:16:12and he changed his allegiance to try to
- 00:16:15get Indian independence understandably
- 00:16:19so there were two sort of Indian armies
- 00:16:22as it were there was the Indian army
- 00:16:24controlled by the British and owed
- 00:16:28allegiance to the British and then there
- 00:16:29was a few Indian soldiers who had been
- 00:16:31captured who had transferred their
- 00:16:33allegiance to sub Chandra BOS who was in
- 00:16:36charge of the Indian national army
- 00:16:39fighting against the British yes so yes
- 00:16:42that that was fact yeah so and also
- 00:16:45there were a lot of uh like there were
- 00:16:47two sides of the coin because at one
- 00:16:49side there were Mahatma Gandhi uh jarad
- 00:16:53Neu who believed in nonviolence yes who
- 00:16:55believed in that you know by peaceful
- 00:16:57protest you will be ble to get freedom
- 00:17:00from British on the other side there
- 00:17:02were a different set of uh like you know
- 00:17:05thoughts where subash Chandra BOS was
- 00:17:07the leader where he said that you know
- 00:17:09youve got to get what's yours that's
- 00:17:11right so did you see these two oh yes we
- 00:17:14you came across that quite frequently uh
- 00:17:17particularly after after the end of the
- 00:17:19war when India was trying desperately
- 00:17:23for its
- 00:17:24independence and um there was um Mahatma
- 00:17:27Gandhi pundit jawahar L neru and
- 00:17:31Muhammad alaj Jena who was who was a
- 00:17:33Muslim now initially when India wanted
- 00:17:37its independence from the 1920s onwards
- 00:17:41these had been the three major
- 00:17:43players and they wanted a unified India
- 00:17:47at that time they wanted the whole of
- 00:17:49India to be unified uh just one small
- 00:17:52incident I would like to bring in the
- 00:17:54notice that you know during 1920s and
- 00:17:56during 1990s you probably might have
- 00:17:58heard about Jalan Wala Massacre mhm yes
- 00:18:01that was amitz Massacre yes yeah 1927 it
- 00:18:05was a peaceful um crowd Gathering which
- 00:18:07was happening do you know anything about
- 00:18:10how General D did that that was a
- 00:18:12terrible terrible terrible blot in the
- 00:18:15and in the whole of the the British
- 00:18:18interest in India and that was one of
- 00:18:20the major you know instigations by a lot
- 00:18:22of Freedom Fighters like maybe you've
- 00:18:25maybe you came a little later to um to
- 00:18:28India which was in 199 1944 but there is
- 00:18:32one of the biggest Freedom Fighter by
- 00:18:34the name of bhagat Singh yeah who was
- 00:18:37hung hanged by the British yeah bhagat
- 00:18:40Singh Raj Guru and Su exactly they were
- 00:18:42all three and they were in early 20s
- 00:18:43that's right and they were hang by the
- 00:18:45British yeah I know I I know that now I
- 00:18:48remember in Ran mask was 1927 yeah what
- 00:18:51is your view point about that like do
- 00:18:53you think it was UN I think it was a a
- 00:18:56dreadful Dreadful incident and a
- 00:18:58terrible terrible mistake should never
- 00:19:00have happened the people were peaceful
- 00:19:03they were trying to
- 00:19:06get independence in by peaceful means
- 00:19:10and the Army was brought in and shot
- 00:19:12them I know that it was it was a
- 00:19:15dreadful incident and also we have heard
- 00:19:16a lot of not heard like obviously we
- 00:19:18know that you know um sorry to say this
- 00:19:22but British people treated Indians very
- 00:19:27badly and um they they were like even
- 00:19:32outside the theaters we they were like
- 00:19:35Holdings which could say that you know
- 00:19:37dogs and Indians are not allowed so this
- 00:19:40treatment what is your perspective did
- 00:19:42you see anything at the time in front of
- 00:19:44your own eyes happening like that yes
- 00:19:47that did happen and again it was part of
- 00:19:50the attitude of the times that's what
- 00:19:52I'm saying when I went to India with
- 00:19:54this kind of attitude but how it changed
- 00:19:57as I was in India for the four years I
- 00:20:00began to realize how wrong it was and
- 00:20:04the attitudes of the people were so
- 00:20:06wrong at the time and um my I I'll tell
- 00:20:10you something my my three major heroes
- 00:20:12in life who they are Mahatma Gandhi um
- 00:20:17Nelson
- 00:20:18Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr all
- 00:20:22black or brown so that's why my attitude
- 00:20:27had changed completely four years I was
- 00:20:29in India did you ever get an opportunity
- 00:20:31to meet Mahatma Gandhi or no I wish I
- 00:20:33had but no I didn't but did you see them
- 00:20:35oh I've seen them I saw them passing in
- 00:20:37a car once with bohamad Ali J no no not
- 00:20:41Jenna with with pundit neru and and
- 00:20:44Gandy in the car but they it was just
- 00:20:46going past that was all which year do
- 00:20:49you know do you remember which year was
- 00:20:50that no I can't remember no it must have
- 00:20:52been
- 00:20:551946 something like that I can't
- 00:20:57remember and so there is a lot of
- 00:21:00conspiracy about subash Chandra BOS as
- 00:21:03well that uh I think his body was never
- 00:21:07found in a plane crash that happened do
- 00:21:08you have any idea I don't know I don't
- 00:21:10know about that so that was a big uh
- 00:21:13that was a big one of the biggest uh
- 00:21:16controversies and still like people
- 00:21:18haven't been able to find what is the
- 00:21:19reality behind it and they said that you
- 00:21:21know there could be some you mean
- 00:21:23whether he was deliberately killed yeah
- 00:21:25well it's possible it takes your time in
- 00:21:28a association with the different peoples
- 00:21:30of India to realize they were quite
- 00:21:33justified in what they were demanding
- 00:21:35and had been demanding for many years
- 00:21:37the British had no right to be there
- 00:21:38yeah but that was just maybe um that you
- 00:21:42had to learn by actually going there and
- 00:21:45having to look at the things you had
- 00:21:47toow to actually go there and I was
- 00:21:49fortunate not only going there but I had
- 00:21:51intimate relationships with Indian
- 00:21:54soldiers all the time dealing with who
- 00:21:56who did you find the most uh L Vibes
- 00:21:59with is it the most
- 00:22:03friendly I think I I you know this is an
- 00:22:06interesting thing the whole time I was
- 00:22:08in India I never once felt
- 00:22:11threatened never once I I traveled
- 00:22:14throughout the whole of India and
- 00:22:16sometimes alone I never at any point
- 00:22:18felt threatened and to this day I
- 00:22:21sometimes wonder about I should have
- 00:22:23felt threatened because why would they
- 00:22:25not dislike me you know why would they
- 00:22:28not try to do something to injure me but
- 00:22:31never ever did I feel threatened never
- 00:22:34once and that was that's always it's
- 00:22:37always stuck in my mind that way and you
- 00:22:39know the other interesting thing I'm
- 00:22:41somewhat amazed
- 00:22:43sometimes how little
- 00:22:46animosity that the Indian people
- 00:22:50actually had towards the British they
- 00:22:53voiced a lot of opinions but there was
- 00:22:56no real hate in Anger which used to
- 00:23:00amaze me also and yet I kind of
- 00:23:04understand it because Gandhi g himself
- 00:23:06said we have traveled a long way with
- 00:23:08the British now let's leave it that way
- 00:23:12in other words don't
- 00:23:13fight don't be angry don't hurt yeah and
- 00:23:19that was his his whole way of doing
- 00:23:22things right yeah what was uh your what
- 00:23:25is your honest opinion about the crown
- 00:23:28itself the crown yeah well I have two
- 00:23:31mixed feelings about that okay um
- 00:23:34because you see in
- 00:23:36Britain every Everything of note owes
- 00:23:40allegiance to the crown the Army the
- 00:23:43Navy the Air Force the police the
- 00:23:46lawyers the professors in the
- 00:23:48universities they're all regious
- 00:23:50professors appointed by the crown so you
- 00:23:53owe allegiance to the crown you do not
- 00:23:55owe allegiance to a political party you
- 00:23:57owe Allegiance to the crown the crown
- 00:24:00being the supreme leader of that country
- 00:24:04yeah so therefore you have this supreme
- 00:24:08leader who has no political power
- 00:24:12actually but
- 00:24:14controls emotionally yeah everyone
- 00:24:18else and in a way has a final say before
- 00:24:22they sign a document they could refuse
- 00:24:24to sign the document now if the if the
- 00:24:28queen the king refused to sign a
- 00:24:30document people would say my God why is
- 00:24:34that what's happened what's so wrong
- 00:24:35with it that there's not signing it so
- 00:24:39in a way it's a final protection against
- 00:24:43autocracy and communism to have one
- 00:24:46person who can say no it's not good but
- 00:24:51on the other hand should some one person
- 00:24:54be in control of of the whole thing no
- 00:24:57they shouldn't so I I've get SP feelings
- 00:25:00about it I understand I understand the
- 00:25:04good part of it what is the good part
- 00:25:06the good part is that it's the final
- 00:25:08protection against autocracy because
- 00:25:11they can refuse to sign the document if
- 00:25:13if if a if a communist or an autocratic
- 00:25:17Parliament brought a document to the
- 00:25:19queen or the king and said you must sign
- 00:25:21that and if he said no I am not signing
- 00:25:25it the people would wonder why they
- 00:25:27would say what the hell is wrong with it
- 00:25:30so it's a protection against final
- 00:25:32autocracy that's why I like it but on
- 00:25:35the other hand I don't like it because
- 00:25:37of the superiority attitude of it yeah
- 00:25:41but do you think like in a um world like
- 00:25:44today Crown autocracy these kind of
- 00:25:49things or democracy I believe in
- 00:25:50democracy but I don't believe in ocracy
- 00:25:53and I'm kind of dubious about the crown
- 00:25:56so you have mixed feelings about the
- 00:25:57crown feelings no mix feelings about
- 00:26:00democracy and autocracy have no doubt
- 00:26:02about that
- 00:26:05yeah okay so uh something that you
- 00:26:08remember from your experience about the
- 00:26:10things that happened during uh during
- 00:26:13the freedom fight by m Mahatma Gandhi or
- 00:26:16Muhammad jenha well um as you know
- 00:26:21after I don't know where to quite begin
- 00:26:23with this you see unfortunately India
- 00:26:27was wanting it Independence immediately
- 00:26:29after the war
- 00:26:32understandably the British government
- 00:26:34wanted to get the hell out of Bendy as
- 00:26:36fast as it could because because they
- 00:26:39were poor the war had finished they were
- 00:26:41losing money hand over fist the country
- 00:26:45was
- 00:26:45destitute and they realized you could
- 00:26:49not control a country like India unless
- 00:26:52you had massive amounts of soldiers
- 00:26:54there to control the population well
- 00:26:57they couldn't do this yeah after the war
- 00:26:59all the soldiers were going home and
- 00:27:02they were not prepared to to keep on
- 00:27:06trying to control India so they wanted
- 00:27:09to get the hell out as fast as they
- 00:27:11could yeah but they would also left
- 00:27:14India in a very bad situation exactly
- 00:27:17that's what I'm coming that's exactly
- 00:27:19what I'm coming to just like to add a
- 00:27:20little like even during the World War
- 00:27:22second and uh when the famine happened
- 00:27:26like we talked about you know 3 million
- 00:27:27people died over there but the most of
- 00:27:30the food supplies actually were given to
- 00:27:33the British soldiers during that time
- 00:27:36probably quite the priority was based on
- 00:27:38you know who deserves to eat that's
- 00:27:40right oh yeah I I I I I believe that's
- 00:27:43probably quite true yeah so they
- 00:27:45completely left India out of any
- 00:27:47resources during that time and then they
- 00:27:48were like oh we don't have anything else
- 00:27:50to yes no I I I do understand that and I
- 00:27:52know that did happen but you see to to
- 00:27:56go back to the business of of the
- 00:27:58dependence um understandably India
- 00:28:01wanted immediate Independence Britain
- 00:28:04wanted immediately out of India so the
- 00:28:06two came together unfortunately it was
- 00:28:08done too quickly and the people
- 00:28:11I let's go back a little bit at one time
- 00:28:14Muhammad Ali Jenna Gandhi and pundit
- 00:28:17nahal ALU wanted a unified India now
- 00:28:21towards the end for some reason Muhammad
- 00:28:24Ali Jenna wanted a separate Pakistan can
- 00:28:28I add a question over here yeah who do
- 00:28:30you think is responsible for India's
- 00:28:33partition Britain and Muhammad Ali Jenna
- 00:28:37these two because Gandhi and neru still
- 00:28:42wanted a total India the whole country
- 00:28:46they even offered Muhammad Ali Jen to be
- 00:28:49the first Prime Minister of India when
- 00:28:52Independence was really was proclaimed
- 00:28:55and he
- 00:28:56refused he wanted an independent
- 00:28:59Pakistan for some reason and that
- 00:29:01changed much changed the attitude that
- 00:29:04changed the attitude between Jenna and
- 00:29:06Gandhi and neru initially they had been
- 00:29:09great friends and Jenna suddenly sort of
- 00:29:12flipped over flipped over to the side
- 00:29:16and what then happened was the fault of
- 00:29:19the
- 00:29:20British instead of taking time to
- 00:29:24recognize necessary boundaries which
- 00:29:26should occur between the two countries
- 00:29:29they just drew a line for example
- 00:29:32Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu ruler yet
- 00:29:36the majority of the population were
- 00:29:39Muslim so instead of trying to figure
- 00:29:42this out what are we going to do who
- 00:29:44they just drew a line now look at the
- 00:29:46problem in Kashmir today both countries
- 00:29:49are fighting about all the time that's
- 00:29:52the reason
- 00:29:53why um Punjab is another good example
- 00:29:58the siks live in Punjab yeah the the
- 00:30:02very place where your leader of Sikhism
- 00:30:04was born is now in Pakistan yeah and yet
- 00:30:08your golden temple is amiter you know so
- 00:30:11tell me tell me that a line should have
- 00:30:13been drawn down there it should have
- 00:30:14been done that way or this way one or
- 00:30:17the other now you see to me that was it
- 00:30:20was deliberate it was a deliberate
- 00:30:22policy to get rid of this as fast and as
- 00:30:25quickly as possible and also like
- 00:30:26deliberator it is also one of the
- 00:30:29strategies of britishers like what they
- 00:30:31call is divide and Rule oh yeah yeah
- 00:30:33well
- 00:30:34that's how that yeah that's right that
- 00:30:38that's how they did the whole empire all
- 00:30:40the way through the centuries divid and
- 00:30:42Rule yeah absolutely just with one
- 00:30:45decision that they took you know 80
- 00:30:46years ago and still people are fighting
- 00:30:49and the countries are fighting the whole
- 00:30:51country but it wasn't just the British
- 00:30:53it was it was Muhammad Ali Jenna as well
- 00:30:57and he he was The Pusher for it I blame
- 00:31:01him be because I mean Gandhi and gandi
- 00:31:06in particular was a
- 00:31:08nonviolent man of Peace what is your
- 00:31:10Viewpoint about Mahatma Gandhi Mahatma
- 00:31:13Gandhi I have great admiration for him I
- 00:31:15mean he was a man who was well educated
- 00:31:18came from a good background had all the
- 00:31:21possibility to live a a life of
- 00:31:24affluence and whatever instead he
- 00:31:26devoted his life to what Indian
- 00:31:30independence is one thing and not only
- 00:31:33Independence but with peace and security
- 00:31:37for everyone do you think Mahatma Gandhi
- 00:31:39was also politically aligned and
- 00:31:42collaborated in with britishers in some
- 00:31:45way
- 00:31:48um no only in so far as he wanted he
- 00:31:51wanted Independence he would go along
- 00:31:53with various things in order to get
- 00:31:55independence but I don't think he was
- 00:31:57igned with the British no and what about
- 00:32:00uh jar Neu jawahar neru another Highly
- 00:32:03Educated very intelligent man who
- 00:32:10um I don't think he was I don't think he
- 00:32:13was uh I think he was more
- 00:32:16politically he was more politic
- 00:32:19politically cons politically
- 00:32:21concerned than Gandhi W Gandhi was more
- 00:32:24emotionally concerned and Psych
- 00:32:27logically
- 00:32:29and his whole soul was concerned in it
- 00:32:32Muhammad Ali
- 00:32:34Jenna um was for Pakistan pundit jawahar
- 00:32:38L neru was very politically inclined but
- 00:32:41why do you think Mahatma Gandhi was
- 00:32:43later assassinated because it was some
- 00:32:47some absolute um fanatical
- 00:32:51idiot who thought that M that Gandhi had
- 00:32:55betrayed them I don't I don't know why I
- 00:32:58I really don't know why I don't know why
- 00:33:00it happen you know had a Muslim shot him
- 00:33:03or maybe even a seik shot him I might
- 00:33:07have understood that but I think it was
- 00:33:08a Hindu who shot
- 00:33:10him I can't be pardon natam God was that
- 00:33:15who it was and was he a Hindu he was a
- 00:33:17Hindu yeah there you go now see I never
- 00:33:19quite understood that yeah what what do
- 00:33:22you think yeah it is very yeah I would
- 00:33:25have understood if it is because of the
- 00:33:27partition I think and also like
- 00:33:30partition between India and Pakistan I
- 00:33:31would understand that that could be the
- 00:33:33reason why did they let that happen so I
- 00:33:38could understand the animosity from the
- 00:33:40Muslim side of the yeah if a Muslim sh
- 00:33:43him I could understand that that's right
- 00:33:45yeah but a Hindu shooting him I couldn't
- 00:33:48understand that it's a tragedy that when
- 00:33:49you think about it that you know um well
- 00:33:52I think it changed the whole
- 00:33:54country yeah I I think when Gandhi died
- 00:33:56it changed the whole country yes it
- 00:33:58totally did the the attitudes began to
- 00:34:01change yeah that's right yeah so when
- 00:34:05were when did you leave India in
- 00:34:081948 after Independence so so you have
- 00:34:11seen
- 00:34:12India's fight with like during India's
- 00:34:15independence you have seen that what
- 00:34:16happened before the partition happened
- 00:34:19during the partition then around in 1948
- 00:34:21I think in uh was it in January where
- 00:34:27where they there was a another battle
- 00:34:30between India and Pakistan well I left
- 00:34:33in U see March or April of 1948 so I was
- 00:34:37there in January yeah well there was a
- 00:34:39lot of trouble between you know no no
- 00:34:42actually I think in January um Mahatma
- 00:34:45Gandhi was assassinated oh yeah that's
- 00:34:47right yes that's right he was I think he
- 00:34:49was assassinated on 30th January or
- 00:34:51somewh yeah that's right can you can you
- 00:34:54check if that's right I'm sure it was
- 00:34:5630th January yeah yeah so 30th January
- 00:34:58he was
- 00:35:00assassinated so how was the where were
- 00:35:03you during that time I honestly cannot
- 00:35:06remember in beginning of 1940 oh I know
- 00:35:10I was yes I was in Madras at that time I
- 00:35:13was down in Southern India at that time
- 00:35:16how was the um situation during that
- 00:35:19time when Gandhi Mahatma Gandhi got
- 00:35:22assassinated what were people feeling
- 00:35:24during that time well Independence had
- 00:35:26already been achieved D so that was one
- 00:35:29thing that was the good side the bad
- 00:35:33side was with his
- 00:35:35assassination a lot of the
- 00:35:38um calmness disappeared you know in
- 00:35:41other words he had been a he had been a
- 00:35:44a profound influence on on calming any
- 00:35:47kind of animosities there was even one
- 00:35:50time he went on a on a hunger stripe to
- 00:35:53stop the rioting which was occurring in
- 00:35:56Kolkata at that time if I remember and
- 00:35:59he went on a hunger strike to death he
- 00:36:03was going to die unless unless it
- 00:36:06stopped and it did stop so he was very
- 00:36:10successful in using his behavior
- 00:36:14patterns to control situations but it
- 00:36:17could it got out of his control
- 00:36:21politically it became a political entity
- 00:36:23no longer no longer a feeling from the
- 00:36:26heart but more from from the mind the
- 00:36:30Mind politically politically yeah so uh
- 00:36:33you told me one incident just before
- 00:36:36this you were telling me that U when you
- 00:36:39saw a dead body being like a person
- 00:36:40being treated on the that changed a lot
- 00:36:44of perspective for you did change my
- 00:36:45attitude yeah and after serving as a
- 00:36:50soldier what did you do in your career
- 00:36:52later on after I after I left India yeah
- 00:36:56well I came back to Britain and I as I
- 00:36:58told you earlier I had not passed the
- 00:37:01final Examination for leaving school mhm
- 00:37:04which in Scotland was called the school
- 00:37:06school higher leaving certificate now
- 00:37:08you in order to get any further training
- 00:37:10in University or anywhere else you had
- 00:37:12to have your higher leaving certificate
- 00:37:15I didn't have it so I was stuck what the
- 00:37:18hell am I going to do fortunately in
- 00:37:21Scotland at that time you could sit an
- 00:37:24examination called the Scottish
- 00:37:26University entrance exam which was a
- 00:37:30very difficult exam if you passed that
- 00:37:34you were then allowed to apply to any
- 00:37:37Scottish University for entrance to any
- 00:37:40faculty it didn't mean you would be
- 00:37:42accepted it meant you could apply so I
- 00:37:45thought I have got to pass this exam
- 00:37:48right so I went home I studied like hell
- 00:37:52for some months I sent the exam did you
- 00:37:55study and passed it well mathematics
- 00:37:58physics chemistry uh English History the
- 00:38:02whole boiling okay it was everything and
- 00:38:05you had to oh but the interesting thing
- 00:38:07you had to have a a different language I
- 00:38:10chose U oh so I sat an examin and passed
- 00:38:21it at least at least but but you see so
- 00:38:25so I managed to pass that EX
- 00:38:28and therefore I then applied for
- 00:38:30medicine because what had happened in
- 00:38:32Burma these years ago it suddenly began
- 00:38:36to click what would I want to do the
- 00:38:39rest of my life I had been taught how to
- 00:38:41kill all the from the age of 13 to to
- 00:38:4621 yeah that's all I had learned how to
- 00:38:48do and now what am I going to do for the
- 00:38:51rest of my life and so this incident of
- 00:38:54the Indian soldier shot in the head in
- 00:38:57Burma
- 00:38:59click what am I going to do maybe I
- 00:39:01should try to help people instead of
- 00:39:04trying to kill them and that's how I
- 00:39:07became uh applied for
- 00:39:09medicine and then after Medicine of
- 00:39:12course you graduate and you you spend
- 00:39:14your one year um what call in Britain
- 00:39:17they call that house doctor here they
- 00:39:19call it an inter you do medicine and
- 00:39:22surgery mhm and after that I thought
- 00:39:25what am I going to do for now I wanted
- 00:39:27to a pediatrician that was a one who
- 00:39:29deals with children's diseases so I went
- 00:39:32to a children's hospital in
- 00:39:34Scotland and um for the first 6 months I
- 00:39:38was there there was one little boy who
- 00:39:41was the same age I had a son at that
- 00:39:43time who was age three this little boy
- 00:39:46was age three and he had um an incurable
- 00:39:52leukemia and he was very sick and very
- 00:39:54ill and the only person would allow to
- 00:39:58do anything with him because I became
- 00:40:01very attached to him was me he would
- 00:40:04only he wouldn't allow the nurses to
- 00:40:05take blood off he wouldn't allow them to
- 00:40:07feed them I had to feed him I had to
- 00:40:10take the blood off I had to give him any
- 00:40:12medication he was the only one who would
- 00:40:14allow him to touch him and I became
- 00:40:16extremely attached to this
- 00:40:18boy unfortunately he
- 00:40:21died and uh I realized at that time I
- 00:40:24could not be a
- 00:40:25pediatrician because I I became too
- 00:40:28attached to the children so I then
- 00:40:31decided um I'm going to do something
- 00:40:34else and the one aspect in in in
- 00:40:39medicine where you don't have to deal
- 00:40:41with people really all that much is
- 00:40:45anesthesiology you deal with them on a
- 00:40:47table but you're not dealing with them
- 00:40:49all the time so this
- 00:40:52emotional aspect of the childish thing I
- 00:40:56realized I don't want to become too
- 00:40:58emotionally attached so I'll become an
- 00:41:01Inus so that's what I did so that's how
- 00:41:04you became
- 00:41:06an and then when did you move to Canada
- 00:41:1019 55 or 56 you know it is very
- 00:41:14interesting that uh even for choosing a
- 00:41:16subject that you chose as a language
- 00:41:18subject you could have chosen French
- 00:41:20because you know no I I didn't like
- 00:41:22French I was very bad at French in
- 00:41:24school is it my I remember one mark got
- 00:41:27my French examination at school was 19
- 00:41:29out of 100 not not very good so no I
- 00:41:34didn't choose French I chose U yeah and
- 00:41:36I passed it and you passed it yeah you
- 00:41:39know I chose French oh well and that was
- 00:41:43for 6 months and that is where I met my
- 00:41:45wife oh well good for
- 00:41:47you but I never understood French that
- 00:41:50way you know there's one little
- 00:41:52interesting part of my time in India
- 00:41:55which uh is is a bit you know at one
- 00:41:59time the people in the what they called
- 00:42:02the tribal territories between
- 00:42:04Afghanistan in Northwest India used to
- 00:42:07raid into India all the time and they
- 00:42:10would kill off a few people and steal a
- 00:42:12few women and pinch the cows and the
- 00:42:15sheep and go back into the tribal
- 00:42:17territories and there was nothing you
- 00:42:19could do about it 1947 at some point
- 00:42:22there was a raid from the tribal
- 00:42:24territories into nor what year was it N
- 00:42:26I think it was 1947 or maybe it was 46 I
- 00:42:29can't just quote right
- 00:42:31remember but there was a raid into
- 00:42:34Northern India near a little town called
- 00:42:36buffer and a little town called oie in
- 00:42:38the Northwest Territories and I was sent
- 00:42:41up with a company of uh grea soldiers
- 00:42:44when this had happened to uh to counter
- 00:42:48it but of course by the time we got
- 00:42:50there they had gone back anyway so it
- 00:42:51didn't matter um but that must have been
- 00:42:54one of the last raids into what was um
- 00:42:58India at that time from the tribal
- 00:43:00territories of
- 00:43:01Afghanistan but and I had been sent up
- 00:43:04there to try and counter it but by the
- 00:43:05time I got there it was all over anyway
- 00:43:07but you know the interesting thing one
- 00:43:09of the ways that the soldiers used to
- 00:43:12there was a river where we were
- 00:43:13stationed in buffer there was a river
- 00:43:16near where we were stationed and the
- 00:43:18soldiers used to go fishing you know how
- 00:43:20they fished they took a grein out and
- 00:43:22threw it into the
- 00:43:23river and of course that stunn the fish
- 00:43:27and then they would collect the
- 00:43:28fish that was how they fish that's
- 00:43:31that's a convenient way to fish yeah
- 00:43:33very good yeah okay so you came to
- 00:43:36Canada in 1962 you said
- 00:43:391955 56 okay and you pursued medicine
- 00:43:43worked as a well the reason I came to
- 00:43:45Canada was the canadi at that time as
- 00:43:48you know we were in the middle of the
- 00:43:49cold war between communism and and the
- 00:43:53West you know Britain the native
- 00:43:55countries America and Stalin's Russia
- 00:43:59right there was a distinct yeah that was
- 00:44:01called the Cold War how do you see
- 00:44:04Canada US and Britain today
- 00:44:07today
- 00:44:09um and India if you have any idea about
- 00:44:14how I view them well we have to we have
- 00:44:16to maintain a NATO alliance or we'll be
- 00:44:19overrun by Russia I'm sure of that I
- 00:44:22mean America is very important that's
- 00:44:24why this coming election is very
- 00:44:26important cuz if he gets in he'll he'll
- 00:44:28not to to Putin who um Trump if if Trump
- 00:44:34gets in at at this next election there
- 00:44:38there you want two things to happen you
- 00:44:40said something can you say I do I want I
- 00:44:42live to 103 years old and I want to see
- 00:44:44Donald Trump in jail it's that
- 00:44:49simple but anyway U I think one of them
- 00:44:52is going to be true which is the first
- 00:44:54one you're going to live up till 103
- 00:44:56years of
- 00:44:57well maybe the second
- 00:45:01one I mean the exit poles are quite the
- 00:45:05opposite at the moment well I think it's
- 00:45:07I think if he gets in it's it's game
- 00:45:10over for democracy but why do you think
- 00:45:12that uh that uh Trump is not good for
- 00:45:16the
- 00:45:16us because he's only concerned with he's
- 00:45:20a total total narcissist he con he's
- 00:45:23concerned with nothing but himself
- 00:45:27he's angry at everything it's all about
- 00:45:30him it's never ever about anyone else
- 00:45:35it's always about Donald J
- 00:45:38Trump I call him Donald J
- 00:45:41trumpet but um I mean the can you think
- 00:45:46of any good thing that he has done I
- 00:45:49can't think of any good politician doing
- 00:45:51any good things at all well well no some
- 00:45:54politicians try to do the they try but
- 00:45:58did to have you heard anything about
- 00:46:01Narendra Modi yes I do yeah so what is
- 00:46:04your view point about I think he is
- 00:46:09um you can be honest I think he
- 00:46:13is very concerned with India's future
- 00:46:16correctly yeah but I think he tends to
- 00:46:21be a bit on the autocratic
- 00:46:24side and um
- 00:46:28for some people I I I think I think it
- 00:46:31would be difficult to deal with so uh so
- 00:46:35your Viewpoint is somewhere like Trump
- 00:46:37in his well no no no no no he's not as
- 00:46:40bad as Trump oh God no no no he's not
- 00:46:42you feelings about him Mi feeling well
- 00:46:45I'll tell you why because um look India
- 00:46:48wanted its independence and got
- 00:46:50it but then instead of a unified India
- 00:46:53you ended up with three countries
- 00:46:55Pakistan Hindustan
- 00:46:57Bangladesh okay so now you have three
- 00:47:00little not three little but three
- 00:47:02countries now the siks are wanting a a
- 00:47:06separate kistan so you want to break it
- 00:47:08up even more so you want another little
- 00:47:10country India doesn't want that no
- 00:47:13that's right so Modi at least wants to
- 00:47:15try to keep a unified India now I don't
- 00:47:17know who's right and who's wrong in this
- 00:47:20atmosphere because I understand the SS
- 00:47:23understandably want their independence
- 00:47:25for from what well well but you see you
- 00:47:28know people emotionally people want
- 00:47:31certain things maybe politically it
- 00:47:33isn't correct but emotionally I
- 00:47:35understand that being Scottish I mean I
- 00:47:37want independence from
- 00:47:39England England and Scotland have fought
- 00:47:41for hundreds of years and yet finally in
- 00:47:46177 they became unified they were
- 00:47:49unified in 1601 with the crown when
- 00:47:51Queen Elizabeth died in James the 1 of
- 00:47:53Scotland James the 6 of Scotland became
- 00:47:56James the 1 of England MH so they were
- 00:47:58unified by the crown then they became
- 00:48:01politically unified in
- 00:48:031707 when the two Count's Parliament
- 00:48:05joined together yeah so they unified but
- 00:48:08ever since then there's still been a
- 00:48:10Scottish independence movement they want
- 00:48:13their independence now as an emotional
- 00:48:16Scotsman I would like to see Scotland
- 00:48:18independent but as a political Scotsman
- 00:48:22I say that's stupid yeah you're breaking
- 00:48:24up a country which is small enough
- 00:48:26already into smaller parts why
- 00:48:30politically it doesn't make any sense
- 00:48:32it's the same with um same with the SS
- 00:48:34in kistan yeah politically it doesn't
- 00:48:37make I can understand emotionally why
- 00:48:39they want to politically I don't think
- 00:48:41it's a good idea so in that way Modi is
- 00:48:43correct okay so this is one of the
- 00:48:45questions that I had uh do you heard
- 00:48:47have you heard about kohinur about what
- 00:48:50about kohinur diamond oh the co diamond
- 00:48:54in the British when are we when are we
- 00:48:56getting the
- 00:48:57you won't you you should but you
- 00:49:00won't you probably won't get it back do
- 00:49:03you know the story behind goor not
- 00:49:05really but I know it's a huge big
- 00:49:07diamond in the British crown now yeah so
- 00:49:09basically this was a diamond which was
- 00:49:11which was in India inab and the king
- 00:49:14during that time who was a young boy
- 00:49:18around 11 years old I see and he signed
- 00:49:21that document without knowing that you
- 00:49:23know he was giving away gave it over to
- 00:49:24the British CR British and since then
- 00:49:27legally they have well you might you
- 00:49:30well then you might get it back who
- 00:49:31knows I well every Indian is asking that
- 00:49:34question well you know there's a gradual
- 00:49:37feeling if you notice some of the the
- 00:49:39artifacts from Greece and so on have
- 00:49:41been given back to Greece from the
- 00:49:42British Museum and there's a gradual
- 00:49:45feeling of these things which were taken
- 00:49:48from countries to Britain maybe ought to
- 00:49:51be given back and that has begun to
- 00:49:54happen so who knows in 500 years or a
- 00:49:58thousand years maybe the coor will be
- 00:50:00given 5,000
- 00:50:03years but I wouldn't hold my breath yeah
- 00:50:07I mean this is very emotional
- 00:50:08sentimental yes I understand oh I
- 00:50:11understand every time there is a
- 00:50:12conversation one of the questions is
- 00:50:14always about when are we getting the
- 00:50:15coino back well um I can understand it
- 00:50:18but I wouldn't hold my
- 00:50:22breath okay so uh what is what is one
- 00:50:26thing that you have learned in your life
- 00:50:27that you would like to advise some
- 00:50:29people in your 98 days of your life what
- 00:50:32is one thing that you have learned and
- 00:50:33you would like to advise to
- 00:50:35people to be tolerant to be
- 00:50:39understanding and to
- 00:50:43converse instead of
- 00:50:45fight basically that's my philosophy is
- 00:50:49there anything in your life that you
- 00:50:50have regretted
- 00:50:53regretted too many things to mention
- 00:50:56what on top of your mind comes to your
- 00:51:00mind well one of them was again in
- 00:51:05India where I was in charge of
- 00:51:12um when I was in charge during a
- 00:51:16riot and a man had a man was shot by my
- 00:51:22soldiers and I've regretted that ever
- 00:51:25since
- 00:51:27what happened I what can I say I
- 00:51:31mean what can I say I was in charge and
- 00:51:34and the riot was there and people were
- 00:51:37being injured and killed and we had to
- 00:51:40go in and stop
- 00:51:42it and
- 00:51:44unfortunately I had to order one of the
- 00:51:46soldiers to kill someone which he
- 00:51:50did I've regretted ever
- 00:51:53since which part of India was that that
- 00:51:56in in which is now
- 00:52:00Pakistan there was in a place called
- 00:52:02havan which is near abbotabad
- 00:52:07nearad pardon near abbotabad it was in
- 00:52:11Pakistan it's now Pakistan it was India
- 00:52:13at the time um and abitab band was uh I
- 00:52:19don't know if you'll understand this
- 00:52:21hamara palon
- 00:52:24K our regiment contonment was in arabad
- 00:52:29okay and havan was a town near arabad
- 00:52:33okay and it was in havan where this
- 00:52:36disturbance was taking place and I had
- 00:52:39been ordered to go down there with with
- 00:52:42the
- 00:52:43troops so that's that's one thing I
- 00:52:47regret if there's one thing that you
- 00:52:49would like to tell anyone who's watching
- 00:52:51or listening to this conversation may
- 00:52:53that be Indian from Pakistan Bangladesh
- 00:52:55British what is one message that you
- 00:52:57have for
- 00:52:59them
- 00:53:01um instead of fighting sit down and talk
- 00:53:06and come to a resolution because you can
- 00:53:09do it everybody has their own opinion
- 00:53:12but you come to you can come to a
- 00:53:14compromise which satisfies without
- 00:53:17killing
- 00:53:19people that's one of the things I would
- 00:53:23say thank you sir I have
- 00:53:27conv with you today well thank you very
- 00:53:29much and I would just like to say that
- 00:53:32uh I think it's very like I said when I
- 00:53:34started that you know it is one of the
- 00:53:35rarest opportunities that I have got in
- 00:53:38my life and thank you to wasu as well
- 00:53:39for you know making me good well I'm I'm
- 00:53:43touched yeah and uh I think you bring a
- 00:53:47very different perspective and I and I
- 00:53:49am so glad and I'm also so grateful that
- 00:53:52you know it was a medium that had to go
- 00:53:55through from this point of view and you
- 00:53:57know you sharing your story well I I
- 00:53:59tell you what it was India which changed
- 00:54:01me it made me grow up grow up MH that's
- 00:54:04where the change occurred from then on
- 00:54:07it was just development but that's when
- 00:54:09the initial change occurred and then
- 00:54:11it's just development from then on but
- 00:54:14it was from India yeah so I have to I
- 00:54:16have to give a lot to India for my for
- 00:54:19my whole being so believe me I I totally
- 00:54:24um thoroughly respect the Indian people
- 00:54:27all right sir thank you so much for your
- 00:54:29thank you very much indeed thank you
- 00:54:31been a pleasure same here thank you for
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