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[Music]
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we feature in the magazine and on the
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podcasts every month a lot of amazing
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leaders the top people in their fields
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who have studied or lived the lessons
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that they teach and my interview guest
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today is the latter Jaco willing was our
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April cover figure the April issue of
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success there it is it's okay don't be
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afraid he's cool Jocko has taken his
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experience as a Navy SEAL officer and
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brought it to the world at large he
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spent 20 years as part of US Navy SEAL
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Teams he was commander of SEAL team
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threes task unit bruiser during the
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battle of Ramadi he orchestrated seal
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operations that helped the ready first
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brigade of the US Army's 1st Armored
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Division bring stability to the city of
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Ramadi Jacko returned from Iraq to serve
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as officer in charge of training for all
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West Coast SEAL Teams and there he
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spearheaded the development and
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leadership training personally in
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structuring and mentoring the next
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generation of SEAL leaders that have
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continued to perform with great set
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success and bravery on the battlefield
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he now has translated his leadership
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lessons into his company s Shalon front
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raised a leadership instructor speaker
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and executive coach he is also the
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author of the mega bestseller extreme
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ownership how US Navy SEALs lead and win
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and he hosts the very popular Jacko
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podcast it is one of the most listened
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to fastest-growing podcasts for leaders
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of all stripes including civilians like
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you and me
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everyone bring him out give a round of
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applause let's welcome a hero Jacko
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willing
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[Music]
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all right Jocko
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thanks for being here thanks for having
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me out appreciate it our theme for the
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discussion today is one of the guiding
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tenets of your life it happens to be the
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name of your new book out October 17th
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discipline equals freedom a field guide
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so discipline equals freedom what does
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that mean to you well I think the
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freedom part is pretty easy for everyone
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to understand I think that everybody
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wants freedom in all the various aspects
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of their life whether it's financial
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freedom those are the two examples I
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bring up all the time are financial
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freedom of course everyone wants
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financial freedom everyone wants to have
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more free time those are two really easy
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examples to understand and if you want
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to have financial freedom well then how
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are you going to get there the answer is
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you have to have financial discipline
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and same thing with more free time if
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you want to have more free time then you
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have to have a more disciplined time
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management schedule and you have to have
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discipline in your life to say no to the
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things that aren't actually moving you
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towards whatever goals you have so you
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know you have to have the discipline to
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to not click the next YouTube video that
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springs up when you get done watching
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one dumb video that you should know
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watched and then it presents you with
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six more don't click on those go and do
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something else and do something
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productive it's counterintuitive in a
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way so it's it almost seems like
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something that only someone who has
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lived that way can testify to well yeah
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it is definitely counterintuitive
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because you know one of the things you
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were just talking about is sleeping in
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in the morning right it seems like
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sleeping in the morning is a form of
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freedom because hey I don't have to do
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anything I'm just gonna sleep in but the
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reality is is when you sleep in now you
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don't get things done and now those
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things that you were supposed to do
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aren't done and now the next day you
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have to wake up early and get them done
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not because you want to but because you
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have to so you've become a slave to the
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fact that you didn't have discipline so
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if you actually
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want to have freedom in your life you
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have to implement discipline on yourself
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before we get too far away from the
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theme tell us about the book it's a
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field guide
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yeah it's discipline equals freedom
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Field Manual I'm sorry it's okay you'll
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be punished later and so so what it is
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is honestly there's not there's not I've
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never seen a book like this it's it's
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written in a way that's not normal prose
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writing it's broken down into sections
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two major sections one of them is called
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thought and the other one is called
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action and so the thoughts section is
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kind of the things that I think about
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and the the reasons and the the kind of
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why I am the way I am and then the
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actions are the actual things that I do
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in my life from workouts to what I eat
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to how I sleep to how I recover from
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injuries to how I actually manage my day
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and train so that's the way it's broken
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up and like I said it's it's it's
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different from any book that I've ever
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seen so it'll be interesting what the
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public thinks of it we'll find out
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shortly
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so I possibly I know you heard the wus
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and the Rose there are some people here
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who know you for anyone who doesn't
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let's talk about your background a
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little bit what drove you to enlist in
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the seals as a teenager you know I was
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one of those kids that I was running
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around the woods taking every stick I
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could find him pretending it was a
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machine gun and at some point you know
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probably around the age of seven or
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eight I realized that you could actually
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go and have a job where they'd give you
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a real machine gun and I said to myself
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I can get paid for this so eventually
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figured out that I figured out what the
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SEAL Teams were I like being in the
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water and the SEAL Teams were obviously
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the maritime component of Special
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Operations and so it seemed like the
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place to go and that's where I ended up
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it's a major commitment for anyone but
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as an 18 year old or a 19 oh and this is
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when people make this commitment do they
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do they have any idea what's really in
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store for them did you I honestly
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thought I would be dead in five years
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once I got in there that that's
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literally what I thought
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I thought seals were just all over the
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world fighting in all these wars and I
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was gonna go and do that too and I was
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ready to rock and roll so you've told me
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before that one of your favorite things
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about being a seal was the training when
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you were going through it yourself and
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the physical and tactical work that goes
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into becoming a seal what was it that
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you loved about that so much well you
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know a lot of times when people think of
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the training and the SEAL Teams they
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think of the training that you see on TV
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which is you know the guys carrying the
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boats on their head and carrying the
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logs around and and that's what a lot of
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people talk about but that that actually
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is just the beginning of of your career
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and and when you're in the SEAL Teams no
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one actually talks about that and no one
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actually cares because all of us have
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been through it and you don't actually
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learn anything about being a seal in
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that initial phase of training and so
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yeah you go through that training a
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bunch of people quit that's cool
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but what I really liked about it was the
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tactics of when you're actually a
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commando and you're maneuvering elements
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on the battlefield and you're closing
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with and destroying the enemy or you're
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training to be able to do that that's
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that's a fantastic job it's fun it
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changes all the time it's dynamic and
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yeah it's it's really hard to find a
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replacement for that in the civilian
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sector
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you you learned a lot of these guiding
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principles that have shaped your life
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ever since as an eighteen or nineteen
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year old did you need them after your
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you know upbringing your teenage years
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were you reckless or unruly did you did
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you need the discipline yes one could
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say I was fairly unruly as a kid that
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was a little bit of a maniac of a kid
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and that's one thing that was great
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about the military for me was it's a
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clean slate number one and then they
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give you very specific okay this is what
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you need to do to succeed and so you
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show up a SEAL team and they say you got
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to learn about this radio and here's
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what you need to know about it and if
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you know that you're gonna be successful
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in that department and here's what you
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know about this weapon and if you learn
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that then you'll be successful and
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that's a great a great base to start
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from and then eventually what what you
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really learn in the SEAL Teams is that
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what you have to do is you have to be
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able to think you have to be able to
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problem-solve and you have to be able to
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look at complex problems simplify them
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and then implement solutions to them and
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that's what comes a little later once
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you have that base but it's it's a
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little bit different from what people
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think because a lot of times people
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think that the military is everything is
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super rigid and structured and that all
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you're doing is getting orders from
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above you and the chain of command and
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you're executing those orders well
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that's actually not true at all and and
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what you're really doing in the military
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is you're you're looking at complex
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problems on the battlefield and you're
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coming up with a solution with your team
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on how to get those problems solved and
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that's why I think that part of the
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military even though it's not well known
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it does translate great into the
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civilian sector because this is what
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businesspeople and now obviously I work
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with businesses all the time and that's
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what the businesses are doing they're
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looking at these problems that they have
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in whatever industry they're in and
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they're trying to find out solutions so
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they can execute them quickly and
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efficiently but by the way it is hard if
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anyone has any doubts about that and
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there were as you mentioned people would
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quit and you've told me before that was
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one of your favorite things of going
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through the training is is seeing seeing
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people who didn't didn't have it in them
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to keep going why why did that motivate
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you or why did you like that mainly it
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was just really funny
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you get these guys that were you know a
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lot of the guys that would quit were
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guys that were running around thinking
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that they were super tough and acting
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like they were super tough and you know
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it's not that's just not the case always
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and so it was really interesting I guess
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to see to see people break down and
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you'd see someone that was acting like a
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real tough guy and after they've been
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through you know a few days without
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sleep and a bunch of hard exercises all
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of a sudden they're ringing the bell and
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me I was not a great I was never a great
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athlete I was never a superstar at any
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sport but I wasn't gonna quit and so I
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guess that's why I had a little little
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inner satisfaction watching guys that
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would just give up it's kind of sad in
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some ways too in a way you just as you
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describe it it sounds like authenticity
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and you know being able to show or
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express what you don't know or what or
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or maybe some small form of weakness and
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I have to get I have to get better and
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acknowledgement that you have to get
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better can keep you going and and and
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and keep you from breaking yeah I mean
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you definitely have to be humble and
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when you show up in the SEAL Teams and
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when I showed up with the SEAL Teams as
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a new guy like I said even though I'd
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been through this tough training you you
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better be humble when you show up the
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SEAL Teams because you don't know
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anything and if you think you know
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something you find out really quickly
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that you don't and so it's it's actually
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easy because if you haven't if you're
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humble and you have an open mind and
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you're willing to listen the guys are
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willing to teach you and it's
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fundamental fundamental things that you
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can learn pretty quickly but anybody
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that comes in that's arrogant that
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thinks they know everything they're
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gonna have problems and again that's the
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same thing you see in the business world
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when we work with companies where the
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company that is actually asking us to
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come in and you know maybe the CEO
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saying hey we want you to come and help
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us that company they're already doing
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well they're already being successful
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and their attitude is hey we need help
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we want to get better we want to be more
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successful and those companies they
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ramped up really quickly and we have a
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great time working with them sometimes
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we work with companies where let's say
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we get brought in by the board brings us
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in because the company's not doing well
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well right off the bat the company's not
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doing well
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and they don't think they need any help
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and so it's it's the opposite effect
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they're saying well we're we don't need
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any help we don't need you guys here and
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the fact of the matter is they need us
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more than the other folks do but the
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reason that they need help is the reason
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we're there in the first place it's the
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reason they're not doing well because
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they're not looking at themselves every
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day humbly and saying what can we do
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better how can we improve how can we
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adjust right now and turn our game
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around or improve our game so that we
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can get better in the market do you've
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written before and I know talked about
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on your podcast just humility as a vital
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vital trait of any leader in the seals
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if you're not humble it could get you
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and your team killed how does that work
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exactly if are you is it about closing
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yourself off from ideas from other
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people it's it's that's definitely one
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of them you know if you and I are
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working together and I'm the boss and I
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have a big ego and I think I'm better
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than you
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and you come to me with an idea I
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immediately shot you out well what if
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your plan was a better plan or what if
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you had some piece of knowledge that
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made sense for a particular operation
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but my ego is too big to listen to you
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well now we go out and we put lives at
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risk and possibly lose lives because my
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ego is too big
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same thing you could say about the enemy
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right if I don't think the enemy is is
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any good all the enemies know good there
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they don't train hard and they're not
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prepared for for the big tough seals
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well if you have that attitude guess
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what maybe those guys are training
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harder and if you start cutting corners
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and you're training you're gonna get
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caught and obviously it's the same thing
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in the business world when a company is
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doing well if the company stays humble
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while they're doing well they're still
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looking for how they can improve they're
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still looking for things that they can
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do better and they will stay on top but
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the minute a company says that's right
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we're the best and no one else even
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stands a chance well guess what
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those people down there on the bottom
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they're hungry and they're gonna come
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and get them
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so you didn't start out as a leader you
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worked your way up through the ranks and
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and you learned from people and
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experiences who or what shaped you well
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it's really lucky again it's a great
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environment to grow up in you know from
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a kid basically and seeing and being in
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Co platoons with very types of
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leadership and
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I was very lucky that I saw really
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outstanding leaders and I saw some
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leaders that weren't outstanding at all
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far from it and you can learn from both
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and I learned from both you know and
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even as a young kid i'ts I I wouldn't
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put it together a hundred percent but
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I'd say and that that guy does something
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that makes us all want to do a good job
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for him I want to act like that guy and
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this guy over here he makes us all mad
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and we don't even want to come to work
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and work for him I'm not gonna act like
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him and eventually I kind of figured out
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what those traits were that they had and
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actually humility being one of the most
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important ones that I noticed with the
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people we wanted to work for and I
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wanted you do a good job for those guys
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are the most humble people and
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ironically always the most experienced
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too so the most experienced people would
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be the most humble and the least
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experienced people would be the least
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humble and and be the most imposing of
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how they wanted to do things which is
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not a good way to lead what are some of
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the experiences that shaped the
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leadership philosophies you would
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develop well it was my whole career but
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really the the solidification of what I
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talk about now and what I wrote about
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with with my brother Lafe babban who's
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another seal to serve with me in the
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battle of Ramadi what we what we talk
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about now is those lessons that we
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learned throughout our career that were
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solidified in the Battle of Ramadi and
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set certified battle-tested and really
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you know I say it all the time combat is
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the harshest of teachers and it teaches
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lessons that you're not going to forget
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and and that's true and so the lessons
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that we brought home from Ramadi it's
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the same thing the same thing that I
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taught when I was teaching the young
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seal officers how to lead on the
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battlefield is literally the exact same
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thing that's in the book extreme
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ownership and it's the same thing we
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teach to companies when we're all
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working with them so let's talk about
00:16:06
the ways that discipline governs your
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life today you're obviously an
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incredible physical shape you have a
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strict diet and exercise regimens that
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you stick to what are what are some
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other musts for you on a daily basis to
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make sure that you're getting the most
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out of yourself I mean fundamentally you
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know this this is so easy and so hard
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you know people say how can I get
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discipline in my life and I tell them
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step number one is wake up early and I
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know people don't want to do it it's
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harsh I know that your alarm clock is
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you know your most hated object in your
00:16:47
bedroom I get that but here's the deal
00:16:49
with with getting up early in the
00:16:51
morning when you get up early in the
00:16:52
morning if you can get up before the
00:16:53
rest of the world is awake right before
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the enemy's awake before the rest of the
00:16:57
world is awake you can get so much done
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you're so much more productive without
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your phone going off without people
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sending you emails and texting you or
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calling you and you wake up in the
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morning there's just quiet and you can
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get things done and you should do things
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and I do things in the morning that I
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know they're a priority for my life but
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maybe they're not a priority for that
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day right so like for instance working
00:17:21
out or working out you got to work out
00:17:22
everyday you got to stay in shape if you
00:17:23
want to I mean if you don't stay in
00:17:25
shape you die right so you got to stay
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in shape but but working out might not
00:17:30
be a priority for every single day
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because you've got things going on in
00:17:33
your business world and with your family
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and all that so guess what it's a
00:17:36
priority for my life so I do it in the
00:17:37
morning before my day even starts so I
00:17:40
can still handle the priorities for the
00:17:41
day but I got my workout done so
00:17:44
long-term I look up in a year and I'm
00:17:46
not out of shape and breathing hard when
00:17:48
I go up in the stairs because I maintain
00:17:50
that discipline on a daily basis so I
00:17:52
think getting up early I think doing
00:17:53
some kind of exercise every day I don't
00:17:55
care what it is I don't you just have to
00:17:57
do something you have to do something
00:17:59
physical there's it's scientifically
00:18:01
proven with not only bro science but
00:18:05
also real science that that waking up
00:18:08
early or that doing physical exercise
00:18:10
every day it Tunes your mind it puts
00:18:13
more oxygen in your blood in your brain
00:18:14
it is absolutely makes you think more
00:18:17
clearly
00:18:18
so waking up early working out every day
00:18:21
if you start with those two kind of
00:18:23
cornerstones and then the other thing is
00:18:26
you know figure out what you're gonna do
00:18:27
during the day go don't don't go to bed
00:18:29
without a plan of how you're gonna
00:18:30
handle the next day your days very
00:18:32
structured I know that you write at the
00:18:34
same time every day you you have
00:18:37
scheduled yeah I have a schedule and I
00:18:40
execute the schedule and that's what you
00:18:42
need to do now you actually said that my
00:18:43
my time is very structured and
00:18:45
it's actually a little bit not true
00:18:46
parts of my day are very structured
00:18:49
parts of my day are very disciplined
00:18:51
which gives me freedom in other parts of
00:18:53
the day and as a matter of fact when
00:18:54
people sometimes people will will get
00:18:57
okay I'm gonna I'm gonna run a
00:18:58
discipline time management schedule so
00:19:00
they schedule every single minute of the
00:19:01
day and I don't recommend that
00:19:03
just like I wouldn't recommend
00:19:05
conducting a seal operation where your
00:19:08
time line is so tight that there's no
00:19:10
room for error because that's not a
00:19:12
that's not a possibility you're gonna
00:19:13
have errors things are gonna go wrong
00:19:15
vehicles gonna brake boats are gonna
00:19:17
break people are gonna get lost you're
00:19:19
gonna take a wrong turn and so you're
00:19:21
gonna need extra time and it's the same
00:19:22
thing with your day if you schedule you
00:19:25
know 16 hours of your day you're not
00:19:27
gonna hit all your targets but if you
00:19:29
look at your workday and you you know
00:19:30
you've got an eight-hour workday you're
00:19:32
gonna be in your office and you schedule
00:19:34
four or five of those hours and you have
00:19:36
three hours that you're gonna fill in
00:19:38
and you're gonna put important things
00:19:39
into those as they come up that is a
00:19:41
much better way to be successful with
00:19:43
with running a time management on your
00:19:45
life and so I only schedule hard core
00:19:48
like four hours a day the other hours
00:19:50
I'm picking up I'm getting phone calls
00:19:52
I'm adapting and maneuvering on other
00:19:54
things that need to be executed on but
00:19:56
what is important those four hours they
00:19:58
get done they get done and that's the
00:20:01
difference between finishing writing a
00:20:02
book and not finishing writing a book
00:20:04
because you know when I write a book I
00:20:07
write a thousand words a day it takes me
00:20:09
about an hour yeah that's what I do I
00:20:10
read a thousand words a day and in 30
00:20:12
days you got thirty thousand words and
00:20:14
in sixty days you got sixty thousand
00:20:16
words and in 90 days you got 90 thousand
00:20:19
words and that's a book that's three
00:20:21
months and it took you an hour a day and
00:20:23
that's exactly what I did with the books
00:20:25
that I've written and and it's the same
00:20:28
thing with physical fitness you don't
00:20:29
you don't get in amazing shape in in you
00:20:33
know this short amount of time but you
00:20:36
get an amazing shape in a short amount
00:20:37
of time day after day after day after
00:20:39
day and that's where discipline comes in
00:20:41
on both those subjects waking up thing
00:20:44
that's pretty unpopular yeah no one
00:20:46
likes that that's okay keep sleeping in
00:20:48
that's fine you wake up earlier you have
00:20:50
to go to bed earlier there are fun
00:20:53
things that happen at 11:00 yeah
00:20:55
and that is true and I you know I'm I'm
00:20:58
uh I guess I'm I'm genetically what's
00:21:01
called a short sleeper and people have
00:21:03
sent me all these articles about it
00:21:04
because I don't sleep a lot and and I'm
00:21:06
not advocating because it's unhealthy to
00:21:08
not sleep enough you know and if you
00:21:10
need eight hours go to bed earlier but
00:21:12
you know and I'm not saying you need to
00:21:13
wake up at four o'clock in the morning
00:21:14
but I am saying this you know you know
00:21:20
when you are guilty of wasting time and
00:21:23
laying in bed and you're being lazy you
00:21:25
know it whether that was seven seven
00:21:28
o'clock in the morning or six o'clock in
00:21:30
the morning you know it and the other
00:21:32
thing that we do is if you want to wake
00:21:34
up early in the morning go to bed
00:21:37
earlier well that's real simple to say
00:21:40
but it's hard to do it's it's hard to do
00:21:42
number one when you're looking at your
00:21:43
phone it's hard to do when you're
00:21:45
staring at your computer screen it's
00:21:47
hard to do when you're watching TV those
00:21:49
things are meant there they're designed
00:21:52
to make you keep looking at them and so
00:21:55
you do so what you need to do is turn
00:21:57
those things off and try and go to bed
00:22:00
now the first night you're gonna have a
00:22:01
hard time going to sleep what you do is
00:22:03
the next morning you wake up early
00:22:05
anyways that first night you only got
00:22:07
five hours worth of sleep and now you're
00:22:08
tired throughout the day good because
00:22:11
then when you get to bed that night you
00:22:13
will turn off that computer you'll be
00:22:14
able to go to bed earlier like you
00:22:15
wanted to so you have to start the cycle
00:22:18
of waking up early by waking up early
00:22:20
you can't start the cycle by going to
00:22:23
sleep early
00:22:30
you know they're clapping about it I
00:22:33
like it you are making progress you've
00:22:35
turned them you are a family man - does
00:22:42
discipline play a role in making sure
00:22:44
that you are being everything that you
00:22:47
need to be for your wife and kids
00:22:50
well again you have to carve out time
00:22:52
for your family and you have to do
00:22:55
another huge thing I talk about is
00:22:56
balance right you have to have balance
00:22:58
and if you get out of balance in one
00:23:00
direction or the other and the classic
00:23:02
example because I'll have some people
00:23:03
that say you know I'm just not spending
00:23:05
enough time with my family and I'm
00:23:06
working too much and so I'm just gonna
00:23:08
focus on my family okay
00:23:09
well let's let's follow that to the end
00:23:11
what happens is you focus on your family
00:23:13
and now you're not performing well at
00:23:15
your job and now maybe you're not
00:23:17
getting promoted and you're not making
00:23:18
more money or maybe you're even getting
00:23:19
fired or you're not doing as well
00:23:20
financially so you can't provide the the
00:23:22
financial security for your family which
00:23:25
is actually gonna cause more stress and
00:23:26
will impact negatively your family so if
00:23:30
you focus too much on your family you're
00:23:32
actually doing them a disservice and I
00:23:35
know that's that's hard to understand
00:23:36
the same thing in the other direction
00:23:38
hey I'm gonna take care of my family my
00:23:41
family is my number one priority so I
00:23:42
got to get forget them financially
00:23:43
secure so I'm gonna focus on my work and
00:23:45
focus on my work and focus on my work
00:23:46
and we know what happens there so what
00:23:49
you have to do is balance and if you get
00:23:51
drawn too much to where you're working
00:23:53
all the time and you disregard your
00:23:54
family you're gonna lose your family and
00:23:56
then if you go the other direction
00:23:57
you're focused on your job too much or
00:23:59
you focus on your family too much you're
00:24:01
gonna lose your job and by the way
00:24:02
you're gonna end up losing your family
00:24:03
anyways so you've got to find the
00:24:05
balance you've got you've got a look at
00:24:07
that every single day you gotta know
00:24:09
when to shut off your phone and you know
00:24:11
that's hard one for all of us because
00:24:12
we're all expecting the big call become
00:24:14
in of course is gonna come during dinner
00:24:16
with my family so I have to look at my
00:24:18
phone right now
00:24:18
no there's no one that's calling you
00:24:22
that you need to talk to you in the next
00:24:23
45 minutes while you're sitting with
00:24:24
your family it's not gonna happen go
00:24:27
recharge your phone
00:24:34
our our time is running short here so I
00:24:38
want to see if you can give people a
00:24:45
sensory perspective of what it's like to
00:24:48
live with this much discipline to have
00:24:51
to be structured to get up early to work
00:24:54
your ass off in in in between what does
00:24:58
it feel like what does it taste smell
00:25:00
sound like to have this kind of
00:25:05
discipline tastes like steak number one
00:25:10
I'll tell a quick story this is this is
00:25:13
a little bit of a wake up call and I was
00:25:17
I was on social media and I posted a
00:25:21
picture of like my morning write a
00:25:23
couple pictures of my morning and I like
00:25:26
worked out in the morning and then I
00:25:28
went surfing and I think I trained
00:25:30
jiu-jitsu and I posted these pictures
00:25:32
right and you know I said hey cool you
00:25:36
know good good morning or something like
00:25:38
that and I was reading some of the
00:25:40
replies and and someone wrote must be
00:25:45
nice
00:25:47
and I was like dang you know that that
00:25:51
cuz you know I didn't have a lot of
00:25:53
money growing up and I was in the
00:25:54
military for 20 years you have a lot of
00:25:55
money growing up you're not running
00:25:56
around doing whatever you want and I
00:25:58
thought to myself I'm kind of a jerk
00:26:00
kind of a jerk because Here I am posting
00:26:05
these pictures I'm working out in the
00:26:07
morning and I'm going surfing and I'm
00:26:08
trying to jiu-jitsu with my friends and
00:26:10
there's some guy out there that's
00:26:11
probably been up at 6 o'clock in the
00:26:13
morning I don't care what his job is but
00:26:15
he doesn't like it I can tell that
00:26:18
and he's saying to me must be nice and
00:26:23
and I actually thought to myself you
00:26:25
know I'm I'm gonna back off from from
00:26:28
posting those kind of pictures right
00:26:29
because I'm rubbing into someone's face
00:26:31
and I'm not I'm not intending to do that
00:26:33
at all and you know the afternoon or
00:26:38
whatever came around and I went and kind
00:26:39
of looked at some of the responses again
00:26:40
and someone else had responded to that
00:26:45
guy
00:26:45
and he wrote discipline equals freedom
00:26:50
and I said to myself yeah that's what it
00:26:57
is and when you see me and I'm surfing
00:27:02
or I'm hanging out with my family or I'm
00:27:04
training jiu-jitsu or I'm traveling and
00:27:07
having a good time and enjoying my life
00:27:10
you're seeing the freedom part and what
00:27:14
you have to remember and what everyone
00:27:15
here should remember everyone here wants
00:27:17
to enjoy their life to the maximum but
00:27:21
if you want that kind of freedom it all
00:27:23
starts with a discipline and I leave you
00:27:26
with that thank you thank you very much
00:27:30
dr. Willie thanks everybody speciated
00:27:38
you
