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my guest tonight A world-renowned and
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bestselling author his new book is
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called knife meditations after an
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attempted murder please welcome to the
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program Salomon rushy
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sir good to
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see nice to see you nice to see you
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first question obviously how how are you
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this was obviously a traumatic
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experience how are you feeling I'm okay
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you know I mean surprisingly yes but
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sometimes there are good surprises this
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was one I'm I'm pretty much recovered I
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have to say and I know this it's it
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sounds peculiar to say this because of
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the the traumatic experience that you
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endured I love this book it's it's it's
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a
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beautiful work of introspection I feel
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like I know now how your mind works you
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know i' I've read other of your books
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but you really do a wonderful job of
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taking us through how you think yeah uh
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it's weird how I
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think I mean I have this kind of free
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associating mind which goes from the
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Moon to a movie to a book to a piece of
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Mythology to a
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joke I had to read this book with
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another book next to me to get to just
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some of the references
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it's but it's it it allows you you know
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sometimes you read an author's Memoir
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and there's a certain self-consciousness
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to it but maybe because this is about a
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traumatic incident I feel like your
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defenses were down and it was very
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revelatory yeah I mean there's there's a
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subject right I
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mean
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it's what I felt is that it's it starts
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off there's a love story which turns
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into a murder story
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which turns back into a love story yes
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the Love Story by the way is with his uh
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wonderful wife Eliza who is uh really
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the hero maybe of the book yeah no I
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mean she she did a huge amount and I
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wouldn't be here in good shape without
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her and plus she's an amazing writer
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right there's that too I I I say with
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certain amount of gritted teeth yes is
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there competition in in writerly
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families no not really actually the one
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of the nice things about this is there
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isn't we enormously supportive of each
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other's work I thought a really
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interesting part of the book is spoiler
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alert at the end when you go back to
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shitakwa shiaka is the famed community
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in Upstate New York where they bring in
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speakers and where this unfortunate
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event happened yeah and you go back to
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revisit the scene of it but also the
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jail yeah where they are holding this
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person that that attacked you yeah it
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was a lot last minute decision we were
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actually on the plane flying up to
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because I I had this desire to go and
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revisit the scene of the crime and show
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myself that I was standing up where I
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fell down right you know sort of
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important for me but then on in the
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flight up there I thought CH was a
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really small town and and if he's in the
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county jail how far is that from the
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institution and it turned out it was
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like five minutes drive so I thought
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well let's go to the
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jail I just it it blows my and but you
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didn't have a desire necessarily to see
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this individual no I just wanted to see
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the
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jail but I just you get that it's a it's
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a really boring
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jail it's a little cell block and a wall
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with some barb wire but I thought you
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know he's in there I'm out here that
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feels good you win and what happened is
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a weird thing happened my feet started
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dancing you were dancing no my feet were
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dancing what is that look like it's just
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just shimmying but the body stayed well
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my Eliza my wife said stop doing that I
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can imagine this gentleman just glancing
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out the window for no apparent reason
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going is that the guy
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like yeah and he's ding at the
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copac you you know you talk a lot about
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your your thoughts about this gentleman
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and whether you wanted to confront him
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there's actually a really wonderful
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section of it almost like a Socratic
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litigation that you do in four parts
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yeah I make him up you make him up yeah
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but you don't make him defenseless no
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the the litigation that you and the
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dialogue that you have with him is
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challenging yeah well I thought you you
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know you got to give the enemy an even
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break you know if you're going to have a
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serious conversation mhm then it's it
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can't just be me yelling at him telling
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him what a bad person is which I think
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yes but he wasn't it makes you wonder
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about you know you spent since 1989 this
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this fatwa is put upon you and it's
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these
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fundamentalists and these are religious
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extremists who have decided they're
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going to punish you for whatever their
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reasoning was you WR though that this
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gentleman is sort
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of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy
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of that 24 he wasn't even born right
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when this thing happened and he by his
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own account had read nothing I'd written
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and yet he was willing to commit murder
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I mean that's stupid
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yes but
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it's I wonder if you think of it does it
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strike you as a change in fundamentalism
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you know you you say he was radicalized
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by Iman Ubi yeah that he watched YouTube
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videos and do you think this attack had
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more to do with like John Lenin's attack
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or with a religious attack no I think
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it's I think in some ways it's a very
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American attack right he spent four
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years in a basement playing video games
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and watching
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videos and it kind of messed with his
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head and also you know I mean he's born
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in Brad in New Jersey slow
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down I I think I know where this is
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going well then you know you're ahead of
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me but you know we live in an America
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where people kill each other every five
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minutes right you know and I think maybe
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in his New Jersey brain
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yes that is how we describe it as well
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by the way ah he's got that New Jersey
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brain
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exactly do you think that there is a
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shift you know we think of
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fundamentalism as primarily a
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religious
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artifact have the algorithms made
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fundamentalism something different from
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that I think maybe they have I mean I'm
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too I'm too old to know really CU I
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don't algorithms don't know what to do
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with me right give them a
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chance no I I
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do but they don't know what to do so so
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I'm not algorithmically influenced right
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but people are people are all the time
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and yeah I mean I think he was something
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happened in him which made it possible
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for him to decide to murder you're a
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total stranger right and that has to be
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brainwashing of some kind right what
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whatever you want to call it but I call
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it brainwashing yeah as I read the story
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I started thinking you know we're so
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used to this idea that of violence with
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a cause this idea that these you know
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there is something deep inside them that
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can almost be Noble or
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understandable this is not that it
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struck me more as more in with the
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school shootings we see here or or the
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other things that you were just this
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thing he saw and you know what's so
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strange about it is first of all he must
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have known that he was messing up his
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own life as well right you know not just
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mine at 24 at 24 and you know the last
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thing he did before he got on the bus
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from Fairview New Jersey to Cha last
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thing he did he canceled his gym
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membership because he knew the he prison
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had weights he wasn't coming
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what he knew he wasn't coming back and
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why should he keep his standing order
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going wow so he's he's going through it
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and going like I don't need serious
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radio anymore I don't exactly so this
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was he suicidal or was he I don't know I
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mean maybe we'll find out if whenever if
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this trial happens we might find out
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more about him but do you dread
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something like that is that something
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that still visits you no I mean I I
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think you know if I I they' if they need
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me to testify I'll go testify and
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I'll be in the courtroom with him but my
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view is he should be scared about being
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in the courtroom with
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me absolutely
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absolutely do you wonder
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sometimes you know and this is not not
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not to get but you and I are both get
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getting older and you write a lot in the
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book about speak for yourself FR settle
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down I was just on jury duty by the way
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I don't know if you saw that picture of
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My
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Doppelganger
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uh but there is
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there's mortality you you you write
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about Martin Amos yeah and Paul AER and
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people that you've lost even during the
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writing of this book lost to esophageal
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cancer um you had a cancer scare I did
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in the middle of Rehabilitation yeah in
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the middle of all this repair work
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suddenly apparently I might have
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prostate cancer I thought that's not
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fair no well you're right he writes he
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goes to the doctor well you you can tell
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yeah I mean I I went to the doctor and
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they examining your prostate is not
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fun again speak for
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yourself
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it's it depends on if you have a jersey
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brain anyway the first examination they
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they thought they found a bump on the
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prostate and then I had to have an MRI
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scan and the MRI scan you know it grades
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from one to five and five is really bad
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and I came out at four right and it said
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cancer probable and then it turned out
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that it was not probable that it was had
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this bump on had been caused by some
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other infection and and and a medicine
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that they had actually given you yeah
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exactly and so then a second doctor the
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first doctor's boss also examined my
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prostate more thoroughly were they lined
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up down the hallway what are they what
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are we doing here no this was very
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thorough
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and also he was an Indian doctor and he
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was a fan of mine so he
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was nothing more uncomfortable than that
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extra thorough yes and he said no I
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think this might be caused by this other
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infection and so so they had to go back
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and have another MRI scan and it said
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one to five is one no cancer so I had
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cancer for two months and then I
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didn't it's so incredible because you
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face this as you write in the book this
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27 seconds yeah was just 27
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seconds and yet can't do do you think
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about and pardon the question but do you
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think does it matter how you die as you
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watched your friends and you thought
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about yeah
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your fate and your brush with mortality
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and then to have this cancer scare did
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it make you think it mattered how you
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die I you prefer not
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to I've got some bad news it's coming
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for all of bad news for all of us yes
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but I mean I you know I my wife Eliza
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and I have decided we're planning our
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100th birthday party by 100th birthday I
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think it has to be a dance
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party yes so we just your feet though
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not the whole body so we're try to
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decide who should
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DJ any I'll pick
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somebody but it strikes me because you
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whether you've wanted this mantle or not
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and I'm assuming you don't you represent
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something you represent
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a courage and a freedom of artistic
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expression of the importance of artistic
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expression and of the danger that
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artistic expression often visits upon
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the people yeah who who do it it's a
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it's a noble Shield to carry but not an
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easy one I don't imagine not an easy one
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and I in a way there's bits of me that
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would prefer to be well known for being
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you know a good writer well I I have to
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tell you I'm pretty sure that's in there
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too is that in
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there you know it used to be when I
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started out as a riser when people would
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write about my books they would mention
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that they were
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funny and then after the attack on the
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Satanic Verses everybody stopped saying
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I was funny really they did because that
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book is satirical it's and it's it's and
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people who read it I get I get two
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reactions to people who read it now one
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is where's the dirty bit because we
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can't find it yeah and the second is who
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knew it was
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funny and I say people who read
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it but it's you know with that on you do
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you feel there's an idea that that you
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have to wear that heroism I don't know
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about the heroism but I think I have to
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be part of the fight right you know I
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mean I mean there is a fight about free
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expression in America at the moment MH
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and I'm I'm I feel like I'm in that
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fight I have a dog in that fight what
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what do you think the how the the nature
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of fundamentalism has changed and
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how that affects artistic expression
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like even now when we see all the
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protests you know up at Columbia
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University some students protest this
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others think that's uh going too far and
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they're threatening people and we're
00:14:24
crossing all those difficult lines you
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spoke at the pen uh Bank yes yeah last
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year last year which is uh a Consortium
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of writers and Poets and a lot of people
00:14:36
truly Defenders of free speech yeah I
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just got a text today they've cancelled
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they've canceled the prize giving
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because they have people attacking them
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for not being
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sufficiently um anti-israeli or Pro
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Palestinian or something right I mean
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everybody's so angry right now right
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that nobody can listen or talk to
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anybody else so people have shouted each
00:14:57
other listen there was a Critic and this
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this is going to sound like a joke a
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Critic of Taylor Swift's new uh music
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album The Torture post Society they had
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to remove the critic's name from the
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critique because of death threats
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because he didn't like the
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record I didn't read
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it because I love the record
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yeah and I don't want to hear any
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negativity no so do I John but but it's
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it speaks to in 1989 there was an
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Ayatollah and a fatwa and a a group of
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religious mmcks who delivered the law
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from high above and now we're all
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fundamentalists everybody's an expert
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everybody's got an opinion and a
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hostility and hostility the the level of
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anger is is crazy right now do you think
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of you know you have a dog in the fight
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in that creative how do we and I think
00:15:55
about this a lot how do we manage that
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and is that just a function of the
00:16:00
algorithm it might be I think to an
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extent it is yeah I mean I don't know
00:16:04
frankly I don't I'm glad you asked me
00:16:06
because I'm the answer have the answer
00:16:07
to the world's
00:16:09
problems it's actually on page if I
00:16:11
would right there exactly but you were
00:16:13
thoughtful enough and you've been
00:16:15
through it enough that I know you have
00:16:17
an opinion yeah I mean I just think
00:16:20
people have to get draw stop having such
00:16:23
thin skins mhm you know at the moment
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we're all very easily offended and and
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what's more is we also believe that
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being offended is a sufficient reason
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for attacking something right but
00:16:36
actually everything offends somebody you
00:16:39
always always I mean occasionally you
00:16:42
what how dare you sir I am
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offended you see and and then if you go
00:16:48
down that road then we can't talk to
00:16:50
each other anymore right you know but
00:16:52
haven't groups always had a way of
00:16:56
policing language or be Behavior I I I
00:16:59
think I'm trying to think has my
00:17:01
perspective changed on it or has the
00:17:04
dynamic changed I think what's happened
00:17:05
is the temperature has got risen right I
00:17:09
I me yes of course people have always
00:17:10
disagreed and people have always said
00:17:11
you can't say that you got to say this
00:17:14
that that's not new what's new is the
00:17:17
the volume and the heat right you know
00:17:20
and so what do we do by taking down the
00:17:22
volume and taking down the heat that's
00:17:24
the question I mean and and again not to
00:17:26
make you the Avatar of this but this is
00:17:28
coming from from a man who because of
00:17:30
threats from fundamentalists had to
00:17:32
basically alter your entire life well it
00:17:36
did certainly have an impact yeah yeah I
00:17:38
mean what what is sad is that I'd
00:17:39
actually got my life back really I mean
00:17:41
I've been living in New York City for
00:17:43
getting on for 25 years right well you
00:17:46
had made a decision I'm going to come
00:17:48
out of this and make myself and for 23
00:17:51
years it was fine right you know and I
00:17:53
mean I you know I mean I was doing
00:17:55
everything that Writers Do book tours
00:17:57
readings lectures you oh I know I'm a
00:18:00
writer don't
00:18:01
stop I've been there with the coffee
00:18:03
clotches yeah and Oprah yeah well I
00:18:07
haven't been with Oprah none of us have
00:18:10
none of us but anyway so it was a shock
00:18:14
when this thing out of a quarter of a
00:18:16
century ago more than that 30 years ago
00:18:19
sort of came out of a crowd at me you
00:18:23
know it was I really was very surprised
00:18:26
do you find yourself now freed of that
00:18:29
fear or is there still that PTSD like
00:18:32
what where's your what does that do to
00:18:34
you well I mean it doesn't you know
00:18:36
nothing good right but but uh it's now
00:18:39
been what 20 months or something I think
00:18:41
I'm pretty much back to myself at this
00:18:44
point do you feel like you're you're in
00:18:45
that writing rhythm again does your has
00:18:47
your mind started to to dream again
00:18:49
finish this and by the way let me tell
00:18:52
you something and I and and we don't
00:18:55
have people on where I don't either you
00:18:58
know read it or or take a look it's such
00:19:00
a beautiful and and Incredibly
00:19:04
interesting and revelatory uh book I
00:19:07
really thank you for writing it because
00:19:10
you had to endure something
00:19:12
awful but your insight into that
00:19:15
experience is is really a remarkable
00:19:19
gift to give to other people and and I
00:19:22
really do and it's got funny
00:19:25
bits a couple of funny bits no yeah for
00:19:28
a writer not for a comic for a writer uh
00:19:31
but it really is a fantastic piece of
00:19:33
work and I and I I thank you for doing
00:19:35
it uh the book is called knife it is
00:19:39
available uh as we speak salmon rushy
00:19:45
[Music]
