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VIs
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uh I was telling them that uh maybe uh
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your ideas could be synthetized in the
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title of one your one of your many books
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which is cities for people uh what is it
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about that aren't all cities made for
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aren't all cities for people this
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particular book uh is actually a a
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protest book against some dominating
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ideas of city planning or paradigms of
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City Planning planing which have been
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very dominant in the second part of the
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20th century and one of them is a
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modernistic city planning
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ideas among them that cities are bad and
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freestanding buildings are good streets
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are bad putting buildings on grass is
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good um and also you must never put
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residence
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workplace Recreation and transport ation
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near each other all will separate spread
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them out that was some of the basic
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ideas and these ideas the first time
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they were really carried out in big
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scale for everybody to see was in
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basilia and that's why I call this idea
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basically for the Brasilia syndrome
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Brasilia is interesting because it looks
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fantastic from an
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airplane it looks very interesting from
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a helicopter and down where people are
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at eye level it really does not look
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good at all and the truth is these guys
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they never thought about people in the
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streets people in among the buildings
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they just made the buildings and then
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what was left between the buildings were
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leftovers and then they started to call
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in some landscape up come and do
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landscaping then they looked out of the
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window to see if people were happy they
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were not because they were built
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completely different from the old cities
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in the old cities they always started
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with there were a place where some
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people were walking and then they put up
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little sheds along the the the path and
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then after a while it became buildings
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houses and then you had a street and so
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the old buildings were always starting
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with life and
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then space and then buildings while the
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new ones was buildings first and then
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landscaping and then perhaps life but
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actually never life a never comfortable
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life and it took us maybe 50 years to
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find out all the bad things about
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modernism because all knowledge about
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people in cities was thrown out by the
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modernists they say all the old stuff is
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not valid anymore now we have the modern
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man everything should be different from
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everything
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else but Homo sapiens is still this High
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he's still a walking animal we still
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have the same biological history we
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still have a horizontal sense sense
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abatus we still can see only so far and
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so far so he all the basic things are
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the same but now it's called modern man
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but he kisses the same way he looks at
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the girl the same way he stands in the
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corners the same way everything is the
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same from homos sapiens so the only one
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which changed were the city planners and
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it's taking us 50 years really to prove
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that that kind of City Planning is not
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humanistic it's not people friendly and
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we can do much better existing cities we
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can repair them and we can do much
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better
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new cities than Brazilia or than many
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other the stuff you can see here in sa
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Paulo and this is what I hope we
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increasingly can see we really saw from
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around 2000 a change in Paradigm no more
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modernism no more car Invasion now we
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are striving around the world to make
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livable sustainable and healthy cities
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because this Old City Planning idea it
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also was supported by motorism by The
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Cars who should bring people from one to
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one to one and that means that for 50
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years we made City Planning which
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invited people to sit all
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day and now we know that that is major
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problem for the Hills
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these guys who have been sitting and
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that's called the sitting syndrome these
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guys who have been sitting they live
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shorter they go more to hospital and
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they have a lousy old days because they
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have bad Health in the old days and they
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are much more costly for the health
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system so we know that if people say
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have a little bit of exercise one hour
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every day they can live seven seven
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years more and have a much better
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quality of life and cost much less for
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the hospitals so that's why we found in
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Copenhagen that every time a guy goes on
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a bicycle 1 kilometer the society saves
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I think it's 35 cents and if he goes 1
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kilometer in a car the society loses 14
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cents so the more they bike the more
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economic benefit from the for the
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society very interesting even for people
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and a much better City a better City
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yeah so there was also mental health
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right there was a big study I think it
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was led by Harvard and S Paulo where we
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are now is the world uh record bearer of
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mental illness a lot of anxiety a lot of
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of stress and a lot of panic uh do you
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think this has to do with the the way
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cities the city was
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designed I can easily see a connection
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and also maybe I could mention why I as
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an architect became so interested
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in how the build form influenced the
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life that was because very early in my
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career actually right when I was
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finished I married a
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psychologist and she and her friends
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kept asking why are you archtics not
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interested in people why don't they
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teach you anything about people in
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University in School of
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Architecture um you know about buildings
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you don't know about people and then of
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course in the days of the modernist the
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days of Brazilia they didn't thought
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that build form had anything to do with
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Life Life Will Go On business as usual
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but now they had modern buildings but
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it's not so buildings have an enormous
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influence on the life if two buildings
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are made with such a diff
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distance and with such a distance it's
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completely different situation down here
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here People Meet the other people and is
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intimate whatever here they cannot even
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see to the other side of the space so we
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know that buil form has an enormous
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influence on the life and the quality of
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life that's what we know now and that is
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what we are applying now to cities and
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New Towns
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worldwide personally I am very I'm very
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old I'm 80 but I worked in this area for
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50 years and I've written one book after
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the other this book which is sort of the
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sum of what I know came out 6 years ago
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and already now it's out in 32 language
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from Indonesia to Greenland and to Japan
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and
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to uh
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Argentina and uh I am I'm of course
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humbled and very happy to see that the
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interest is so great but this
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distribution shows that all over the
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world people are very very interested in
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coming to know more about how can cities
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be humanized how can the daily day life
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for people in cities become better that
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is why this book so quickly has been
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distributed and it's not only the books
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uh your firm have been has been hired by
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many of the biggest cities in the world
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right you've been working for New York
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for London for all big cities in
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Australia and also for S Paulo too uh uh
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would you say that your ideas nowadays
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you were talking about the Paradigm uh
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would you say that your ideas are more
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and more the new paradigm is it what new
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Architects are studying at school it's
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still a transition period and still
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there are many old
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God who believe that form is everything
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but I believe that good architect is not
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about form because that is sculpture
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good architect is the interaction of
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form and life and only if the
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interaction ction works well and that
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this form supports life in the area and
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the building well is it good
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architecture so architecture is now a
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wider thing it's not only form form it's
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form plus life and now we have worked
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hard to bring the life into the equation
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so that architecture student learn it is
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a combination my friend this one will
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give
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you machines for living this one will
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give you cities with a soul you've been
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to Brazil quite a few times already
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right you've been here your firm has a
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big project in downtown s Paulo you've
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been invited to talk a few times I I I
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imagine that you had the opportunity to
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to get to know some of our big cities uh
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what are your impressions are Brazilian
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big cities made for people I have been
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here specifically to study
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kurba and in a previous book I wrote
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quite a bit about kurba and in a series
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of great cities around the world I
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thought that what they've done in KTIV
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is quite
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extraordinary also I've been in basilia
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and I've Wroten this one what why this
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is special and I was not so happy there
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as it was in kurba and then I was been
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in sa Paulo or sorry in um Salvador and
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in Rio de Janeiro and now in in sa Paulo
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um I think that some of the cities are
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quite interesting and all the cities
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have nice and interesting areas but
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generally the quality of the basilian
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cities are not as good as the quality of
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cities in say Sweden or something like
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that
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because the market forces have been too
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strong here uh the automobile industry
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have pushed cars into the cities and the
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developers have gone on doing all
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these quick buildings without thinking
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so much about
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whether it will be a good city if you
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had more uh Towers generally it will not
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be a good City you have to know why
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you're doing it and what is most
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important important in City plan you
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have to know where you're going so all
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the good cities I know of they have a
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very specific plan by 220 will'll be
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here by 230 will'll be here by 240 we
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have no more fossil fuels and by 250 we
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are here so and and so there is this
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these plans to gradually change the
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direction instead of going on with
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business as usual it's so important that
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you have leadership and that you have
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visions and that you have goals to meet
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and you know where will this city be
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going and this I could challenge all the
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basilian cities actually all cities in
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the world to have these goals because we
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can go on using fossil fuel polluting
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the air challenging the climate and
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being more and more fat and having a
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lousy life and being afraid of each
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other we have to do address these things
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which are vital for the well-being of
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homo sapiens if you follow public debate
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about cities here in in Brazil in s
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Paulo specifically you will listen to
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lots of people who tell you okay bikes
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are cool they're cute uh Copenhagen is
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incredible but some Paul is not copag uh
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you know there are 100 times more people
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here and you can see it it's a it's a
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place with a lot more urgent social
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problems and with less money uh why
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bother you
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know sa is so far away from from
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Copenhagen why you trying it's not about
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Copenhagen at all it's about Homo
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sapiens and I GA I gather that there are
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Homo sapiens living here also and these
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kind of humanistic City Planning ideas
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they can be used on all levels from a
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little village 100 people to a big city
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in Africa of 30 million people or
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Tokyo um and it's not about copying
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Copenhagen because for every city there
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will be specific
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Solutions the only thing we know is that
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the motorc car is on its way out driving
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is going down in America and Australia
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public transportation is on its way up
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around the world by cing also is on the
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way up around the world because it is
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very smart to climate and to health so
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there's a number of things changing and
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we know that we have to find new ways of
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Mobility because the old idea of
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mobility of the motor car that every
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individual have four rubber wheels and
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that will give you
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Mobility that is not true in cities it's
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really horrible
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mood modee of of mobility in in dense
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cities it's technology which is far
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outdated we just going on blindly and I
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think that in just 25 or 20 years we'll
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see rapid and drastic changes in the way
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we organize mobility in cities because
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what we do now is not smart and having
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more of that doesn't make us twice as he
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happy it makes us twice as unhappy so we
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will see changes and we'll be forced to
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see changes because the climate are not
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waiting and the
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health problem is not waiting for a
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solution we have to address these do you
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have any advice for Mayors and for
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people who are designing City all over
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Brazil you know the problems of our
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cities uh not all cities will be able to
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hire your firm uh so what should they
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think about how should they deal with
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their space maybe I should say
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that my firm is one thing and my
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research is another thing we talk about
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changing the way people
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think and all my six books in all these
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35 languages they are all made to change
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the way we think and then at some point
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15 years ago so many mayors come and say
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you can criticize but can't you come and
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show then we made the company and the
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company they tried to put some of these
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ideas into real life and we have worked
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in very interesting cities like mosow
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like New York London Milbourne Sydney
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reram uh Copenhagen Copenhagen RGA um
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surk 200 cities around the world and
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many many interesting things have been
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made also they worked here I have the
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impression that that there are not so
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many things to look at here yet but
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maybe they will come yeah there are more
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things in New York to look at more
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things in even more things in Moscow
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which have been completely transformed
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really so Moscow is changing fast you
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wouldn't imagine it but that's because
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they have strong leadership in Moscow
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they my mayor say you do this they do
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yeah no
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discussion so there your firm has a
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project here in s Paulo in one very
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symbolic area of downtown s Paulo which
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is aab Valley yeah and the project has
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been a bit poic some people have been
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accusing it of of helping gentrification
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of the area how would you respond to
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that the sure way of preventing
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gentrification is is to make things as
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bad as
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possible and don't do
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anything and to me that's not a solution
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if we have a possibility to make the
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world if we have a drug in in a doctor's
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toolbox which can cure people I think we
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should give it to the people instead of
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holding it back and say maybe most of
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the dogs will go to the rich people we
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have to do as best we can and this
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gentrification system the problem is we
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shall make more nice places so there are
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nice places for all of us whether we are
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in one or another or certain uh economic
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layer in the population uh so
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gentrification is not a matter which the
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city
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planners shall solve that has to be
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solved politically by making rules that
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there shall be mixed use there shall be
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afford mble residences in every district
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and things like that it's not about
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making it as bad as possible never
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another thing you you see a lot in the
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public debate here in Brazil is people
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uh saying that you know a city like s
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Paulo is too big to fail you can't keep
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experimenting things uh the city has to
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go on you can't treat people as lab mice
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uh you can't use experimentation the
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city is the way it is you have to let it
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function how would you respond to
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that you don't have to experiment
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anymore because this humanistic movement
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of City Planning which I've been talking
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about has been around now for 20 years
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and has been utilized in a number of big
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cities among them New York and um so
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it's not pioneering to do something like
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this it is
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something which you can learn about and
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there are pioneers all other places so
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you don't have to be a Pioneer if you
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don't do anything you're lacking behind
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that's the problem it was a big pleasure
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to talk to you I wish I had more time uh
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I don't
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unfortunately had more voice
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