Ancient Language Learning DESTROYS Modern Methods - How to Become Fluent FAST

00:56:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc-JYUqIsI4

Résumé

TLDRDenne samtalen utforsker språkopplæring imellom antikken og nåtiden, med fokus på hvordan latin og gresk ble undervist. En professor ved Universitetet i Reading snakker om sine metoder for å studere gamle språk og deres undervisningsteknikker. Det diskuteres emner som memorering, behovet for lærere, og effekten av motivasjon og deltakelse i språklæring.

A retenir

  • 📜 Antikken lærte språk gjennom direkte instruksjon og memorering.
  • 🗣️ Muntlig kommunikasjon var prioritert i språkopplæringen.
  • 📚 Vokabular var essensielt, da ordbøker var begrensede.
  • 🏫 Læringsmiljøet var individuelt tilpasset elevenes evner.
  • 🌍 I dag er det mer fokus på grammatikk og strukturerte klasser.
  • 🙋 Motivasjon er avgjørende for å oppnå språklæring.
  • ✨ Comprehensible input-teori hjelper med meningsfull læring.
  • 🔄 Språkferdigheter bygges opp over tid med praksis.
  • 💬 Samtale med lærere eller parten er viktig for språkforståelse.
  • 📖 Lærebøker gir strukturert tilgang til språkinnhold.

Chronologie

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    I dagens samfunn er vi den mest litterate kulturen som noen gang har eksistert. Historisk læring, som læring av latin for 2000 år siden, har ingen parallell til dagens metoder som Duolingo.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Antikkens utdanningssystem var preget av individuell læring, der repetisjon og hukommelse var sentralt. Utdanningen begynte når foreldrene mente barna var modne.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Som professor forsker jeg på latin og gresk og hvordan disse språkene ble undervist og forstått. Antikkens læringsmetoder skiller seg betydelig fra moderne klasserom.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    For eksempel er det et misoppfatning at greske talere ikke lånte fra latin. Faktisk ble mange latinske ord adoptert i gresk etter det romerske imperiets utvidelse.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Når vi lærer erobrer vi også kulturelle kontekster - slik som lån av ord for mat og klær som reflekterer samtidens sosiale forhold.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Min forskning inkluderer også gjenspeilning av hvordan barn i antikken lærte. Gjennom prosjekter som gjenkonstruksjon av gamle klasserom lærer vi barn hvordan de skrev og studerte på vokstavler.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Læring i antikken handlet ikke bare om skrift, men også muntlig kommunikasjon. Læring av språk skulle skje naturlig, kombinert med samtaler med lærere.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Selv om det i dag finnes mange metoder for språkinnlæring, er det ingen one-size-fits-all. Individuell motivasjon og interesse spiller en stor rolle.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Antikken har mye å lære oss om hvordan språk ble ervervet - ved hjelp av muntlig instruksjon, repetisjon og kulturell deling.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    I moderne tid er det nødvendig med en balansert tilnærming til språklæring, som kombinerer grammatikk, skriftlig, samtale og kulturell utveksling.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:56:57

    Vi bør også vurdere den personlige læringsmetoden - hvilke metoder fungerer best for den enkelte, og dermed tilpasse utdanningen til deres behov.

Afficher plus

Carte mentale

Vidéo Q&R

  • Hvordan lærte folk latin i antikken?

    Folk lærte latin gjennom individuell undervisning fra lærere, med vekt på memorering av vokabular og bruk av klassifiserte ordbøker.

  • Hva er de største forskjellene mellom språkopplæring nå og i antikken?

    I antikken var det mye mer fokus på muntlig kommunikasjon, memorering og individuell læring uten moderne hjelpemidler som ordbøker og læringsplattformer.

  • Hvilken rolle spiller motivasjon i språklæring?

    Motivasjon er avgjørende, da den påvirker hvor mye tid og innsats læreren investerer i å lære språket.

  • Hvordan skiller antikkens læringsmetoder seg fra dagens?

    Antikken fokuserte på muntlig kommunikasjon og forståelse gjennom praktisk bruk, mens dagens metoder ofte inkluderer mye grammatikk og strukturerte kurs.

  • Hvilke tips har du for å lære latin eller spansk?

    Finn en lærer eller språkpartner, bruk lærebøker med grammatikk og praksis, og snakk regelmessig på språket.

  • Hva er 'comprehensible input'?

    Dette er en teori om språklæring som foreslår at man lærer best gjennom meningsfullt og forståelig språkinnhold.

  • Er det vanlig at folk faller ut av språklæring?

    Ja, mange gir opp språklæring hvis de ikke ser fremgang eller ikke opplever tidlige suksesser.

  • Hvordan var skolen i antikken?

    Skolen var typisk individuell, uten faste starttider, og elevene arbeidet gjennom spesifikke oppgaver med lærerens veiledning.

  • Hvor viktig er grammatikk i språklæring?

    Grammatikk er viktig, men det er også avgjørende å ikke bli overveldet av det, og å bruke språket aktivt.

  • Hvilke språk snakker du?

    Professoren snakker fransk, tysk, latin, gresk og har kjennskap til flere andre språk.

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    we are the most literate society that
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    has ever existed so we have enormous
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    amounts of information Antiquity is not
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    like that how people learned Latin let's
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    say 2,000 years ago because clearly they
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    didn't have dualingo and they didn't
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    have this conversation wasn't happening
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    like this yes they use a lot of rote
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    memory in Antiquity pretty much all of
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    the education is individual you start
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    school when your parents think that you
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    have that maturity learning vocab is
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    really really important in the ancient
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    world because you cannot use a
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    dictionary you know you can't look them
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    up so I'm a professor at the University
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    of reading um and that means that part
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    of my time I teach undergraduates about
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    the ancient world and part of my time I
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    do research about the ancient world so I
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    try to discover things about it that are
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    not already known so in terms of
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    research I'm a linguist and I work
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    specifically on the kind of the Latin
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    and Greek languages and how how well
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    partly just how they work but also how
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    people understood them and how people
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    taught them in Antiquity so for example
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    we know how we learn Latin today it's
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    not a secret what happens in a Latin
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    class there are textbooks Etc but what
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    happened in a Latin class 2,000 years
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    ago supposing you were an ancient Greek
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    and you wanted to learn Latin was your
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    Latin class like our Latin class well no
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    it wasn't is the answer and so I look at
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    what we can know about what their Latin
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    classes were actually like I also look
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    at what actually happens with the
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    language so for example I've just
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    published a book on Latin lone words in
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    ancient Greek so we tend to think well
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    Greek speakers they weren't borrowing
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    words from Latin it wasn't cool to
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    borrow words from Latin whereas speakers
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    are always borrowing words from Greek
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    it's very very cool to borrow words from
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    Greek but actually that's not true there
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    are an awful lot of words that Greek
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    speakers do borrow from Latin now we're
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    not talking in the fifth century BC here
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    we're talking more like in the 2 Century
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    ad when the Greek speakers are all part
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    of the Roman Empire and that's why
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    they're borrowing words but I'm also
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    looking like which words are they
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    borrowing why are they borrowing those
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    particular words some words are
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    obviously like it is cool to borrow this
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    word and other words aren't and that
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    partly has to do with what kind of
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    categories they are and that Maps
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    interestingly onto lone words today so
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    like you think about where do we borrow
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    words well we like to borrow words for
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    food for example there's an awful lot of
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    foreign words in English for food and
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    that's not just true because obviously
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    we borrow the food yes I mean if you're
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    going to if you're going to borrow the
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    taco it kind of makes sense to borrow
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    the the word Taco but it goes further
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    than that because foods that we didn't
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    borrow we still like to use a French
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    word for and that has to do with many
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    cultures just finding it cool to use a
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    foreign word for Foods also for clothes
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    um we like to borrow French words for
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    clothes and the French like to borrow
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    English words for clothes and back in
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    Antiquity the Romans borrow Greek words
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    for food and clothes and the Greeks
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    borrowed Latin words for food and
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    clothes so there's a a kind of something
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    amiliar about the the way that they're
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    borrowing these words so that's what I
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    do in terms of research and then the
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    that's not the main part of my life the
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    the other half of what I do is teaching
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    so I teach undergraduates and I teach
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    graduate students um and then I teach
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    school children because I've got a
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    project called the reading ancient
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    School room where we reconstruct what an
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    ancient School looks like and what
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    people actually did in an ancient school
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    and then we invite children to come and
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    find out not only what it's like to
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    write on a wax tablet but what kinds of
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    things you actually did write on a wax
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    tablet if you were an ancient child wow
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    okay where to start let's go back to the
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    very some of the very first things that
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    you said before we get into my journey
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    of language I think it'll come out
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    naturally through the evolution of this
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    conversation you said that you studied
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    kind of how people learn learned Latin
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    let's say 2,000 years ago because
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    clearly they didn't have dualingo and
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    they didn't have this conversation
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    wasn't happening like this I couldn't
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    get across uh you know Mainland Europe
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    to to speak to you Etc so how different
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    was it and how effective was it compared
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    to the way we're doing it now yeah as
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    far as I can work out and you know the
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    data are not going to be huge on this
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    point but as far as I can work out it's
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    roughly equally effective that's to say
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    I've got no evidence that it's more
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    effective or less effective and that's
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    partly because if you think about
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    language learning today there's a huge
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    range of effectivenesses so there's
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    plenty of people who you know they tried
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    to learn a foreign language and they
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    didn't get anywhere nothing happened and
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    you know maybe they spent four years in
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    school learning French but it doesn't
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    mean that today they can walk into a
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    shop in France and buy something really
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    really simple and common they just they
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    didn't learn any French
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    um but then there are other people who
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    maybe they didn't have any more exposure
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    to French than that first person and
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    they have learned French and they can go
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    carry on a conversation so there's a
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    huge range in how effective language
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    learning is because it's not just about
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    the method that's used but also about
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    the person who's learning um if that
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    person kind of really wants to learn the
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    language and really makes an effort it
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    just comes out really different from if
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    that person is not genuinely interested
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    and there's also an issue that different
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    learning styles really suit different
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    people so there are some people who work
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    really well by their ears they can pick
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    up a lot of information that way um they
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    can they can retain it well it just
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    works really well and other people
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    they're just not good at learning things
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    using their ears they might be however
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    good at Learning things another way and
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    like for example you give them written
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    texts and they'll do much better some
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    people are good at learning things with
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    grammar some people are not good at
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    learning things with grammar and so any
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    language learning system that you use is
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    going to work for some people in your
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    class and not for
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    others and whether some people that will
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    almost always work for and some people
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    almost never work for there's also a
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    group of people for whom it's going to
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    work with one system and not H another
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    but those are not equally distributed if
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    you see what I mean um I don't think
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    it's really true that like one system is
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    inherently better it's that different
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    people have different brains and
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    different things will work for them
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    which unfortunately you do not know when
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    you start your class which of my
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    students need this and which of my
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    students need that
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    so so it's really hard to gauge
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    Effectiveness today and it's even harder
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    to gauge effectiveness in Antiquity
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    where we have the results but we almost
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    never have the information on how long
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    it took to achieve those results so some
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    people learned some Latin speakers
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    learned Greek and some Greek speakers
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    learned Latin really really well no
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    question about that we've got the
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    results how much time and effort did it
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    take them that we almost never have um
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    so I you know it's it's very hard to
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    know but could they could they learn it
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    you know not as native speakers not not
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    as little children but learning it later
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    could they learn it so that they knew it
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    really well the answer is definitely yes
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    we have people writing in languages that
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    we know they are not native speakers of
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    and doing it effectively
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    flawlessly wow okay then uh just one
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    followup to that before I give my my my
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    ideas in that what were they
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    specifically doing though were they more
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    doing translation of text did they have
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    a tutor who would constantly speak to
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    them in that language what was the if
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    there is any or if you have any data or
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    understanding of what the predominant
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    method you know like we have a
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    traditional method now in school what
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    was their predominant predominant method
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    right so they do have a teacher who can
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    speak to them in that in that second
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    language
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    definitely um it's not always a native
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    speaker but they they do have a teacher
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    who can speak it right okay they don't
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    when they talk about learning a foreign
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    language they don't say I want to learn
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    to read Latin or I want to learn to read
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    Greek they say I want to learn to speak
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    Latin or I want to learn to speak Greek
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    because even though they will in most
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    cases learn to read and right that's not
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    what they see as the key element in
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    knowing a foreign language it's being
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    able to speak it and that of course is
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    because both Latin and Greek are living
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    languages in Antiquity so nowadays there
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    are people who speak Latin and ancient
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    Greek
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    but that's not the main reason that most
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    people would learn those languages the
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    main reason would be to read it but
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    that's just not really true in Antiquity
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    they their living languages which you
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    know makes total sense um they have a
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    teacher and the teacher can speak the
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    language and they have a dictionary and
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    the dictionary is arranged by subject
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    it's a bilingual dictionary and it's got
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    um little little sections with maybe 10
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    to 20 words in each
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    section on different topics now learning
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    vocab is really really important in the
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    ancient world because when they write
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    they do not leave spaces between the
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    words
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    so if you want to read a text in
  • 00:10:36
    Antiquity you need to know what the
  • 00:10:38
    words are yes you need to be able to
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    recognize them because if you do not
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    recognize the words you cannot use a
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    dictionary you know you can't look them
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    up so now a Latin student will say gosh
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    I've never seen this word
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    senatus let me look in the dictionary
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    I'll look under s because it begins with
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    s but the student knows it begins with s
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    because the student has a space you know
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    the student sees that word with a space
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    before it and a space after it but the
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    ancient Latin student doesn't have those
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    spaces doesn't know that the word cotus
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    begins with s because can't be really
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    sure that that s doesn't attach to the
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    the previous word so one of the main
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    things you need to do is learn loads and
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    loads of vocab and therefore they have
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    these dictionaries which are not in
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    alphabetical order they also have
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    dictionaries in alphabetical order but
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    it looks as though that's not what
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    they're mainly using at the beginning
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    they use these classified ones and they
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    just basically learn one section at a
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    time so you'll have a section on birds
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    and you'll learn the names of birds
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    you'll have a section on fish you'll
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    learn the names of fish you'll have a
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    section on four qued animals you'll
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    learn those names parts of the human
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    body you learn those words
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    and until you have learned a lot of
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    words you're not going
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    near a normal written out text so we can
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    give our students like sentences and
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    paragraphs and even texts at a
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    relatively early stage because of the
  • 00:12:10
    word Division and they can't so what
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    they give them in written form is these
  • 00:12:17
    very cute little bilingual stories which
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    are divided into very very short lines
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    basically one two or three words per
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    line and they have a line forline
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    equivalent between the Latin and the
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    Greek and originally these were stories
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    about a child who goes to school and
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    learns ancient Greek they were Roman
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    stories written for Roman children and
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    they are so cute they have the child he
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    gets up in the morning and he washes and
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    he brushes his teeth and he calms his
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    hair he's a very good little child he
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    goes to school he's accompanied by his
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    personal slave boy because you know
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    let's be fair here it's not the it's not
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    the people too poor to own a slave who
  • 00:13:03
    are going to school um so he's got his
  • 00:13:05
    personal slave boy and he's accompanied
  • 00:13:07
    by his pedagogue and possibly he has a
  • 00:13:09
    nurse to help him get dressed he goes to
  • 00:13:11
    school he doesn't have to carry his own
  • 00:13:13
    stuff mind you he's got a personal slay
  • 00:13:15
    for for that yes um and then when he
  • 00:13:18
    gets to school um he says hello to the
  • 00:13:21
    teacher there is no set start time to a
  • 00:13:24
    Roman school day you get there when you
  • 00:13:26
    get there and so you walk in and you say
  • 00:13:33
    hello to the teacher you interrupt the
  • 00:13:35
    teacher for that purpose and then you
  • 00:13:36
    say hello to everybody else who's
  • 00:13:39
    already there and then you sit down and
  • 00:13:44
    start working on your first task because
  • 00:13:47
    pretty much all of the education is
  • 00:13:49
    individual there being no set start time
  • 00:13:52
    to the Academic Year either so nowadays
  • 00:13:55
    you know
  • 00:13:56
    everybody um who turns seven in a
  • 00:13:59
    particular year they're going to start
  • 00:14:01
    school on the same day but it's not like
  • 00:14:04
    that in Antiquity you start school when
  • 00:14:07
    your parents think that you have that
  • 00:14:09
    maturity and that means you're probably
  • 00:14:11
    the only child who starts school on the
  • 00:14:14
    day that you start
  • 00:14:15
    school and so you can't really be
  • 00:14:18
    grouped meaningfully with somebody you
  • 00:14:20
    know somebody else who has the same
  • 00:14:22
    background that you
  • 00:14:23
    do and so they just take it from there
  • 00:14:26
    and so you arrive at school you do your
  • 00:14:29
    task and then you when you've done your
  • 00:14:31
    task you go up to the teacher and you go
  • 00:14:33
    over it um and a lot of what we know
  • 00:14:36
    about Roman schools comes from these
  • 00:14:38
    cute little bilingual textbooks
  • 00:14:40
    explaining um the day of a of a not very
  • 00:14:43
    good child in some respects I mean he
  • 00:14:45
    starts out good but there there are
  • 00:14:47
    different version he's not very good at
  • 00:14:49
    all um so that's what the Romans use to
  • 00:14:55
    learn Greek but the
  • 00:14:57
    Greeks they didn't learn Latin in
  • 00:15:00
    primary school they learned Latin later
  • 00:15:03
    um at sort of teenager level so they
  • 00:15:07
    didn't
  • 00:15:08
    really they didn't really want to write
  • 00:15:10
    stories about small children learning
  • 00:15:12
    languages and they write little
  • 00:15:15
    dialogues about grown-ups not learning
  • 00:15:18
    languages but kind of using them so
  • 00:15:20
    there's a story about somebody who goes
  • 00:15:24
    to the bank and borrows money there's a
  • 00:15:25
    story about somebody who goes shopping
  • 00:15:27
    and buys food somebody who goes shopping
  • 00:15:29
    and buys clothes somebody who goes to
  • 00:15:31
    visit a friend who's ill you know things
  • 00:15:33
    that you might actually do very much
  • 00:15:36
    like the dialogues in modern foreign
  • 00:15:39
    language techbooks where you you know
  • 00:15:40
    you go to a cafe in Paris and you buy a
  • 00:15:42
    quason and you pay for it 10 euros and
  • 00:15:44
    this gives you the culture as well as
  • 00:15:46
    giving you the the
  • 00:15:49
    language so these
  • 00:15:53
    are these are readable by a child who or
  • 00:15:57
    by a person who hasn't learned much of
  • 00:16:00
    the foreign language yet because the
  • 00:16:02
    lines are so short and you have this
  • 00:16:05
    bilingual translation so you may not
  • 00:16:08
    know what homo means but you see on the
  • 00:16:13
    same line right across on N or anthropos
  • 00:16:16
    until you say okay that means person or
  • 00:16:20
    man depending on what sense of homo
  • 00:16:22
    we've got
  • 00:16:24
    um so probably what you do with these
  • 00:16:27
    things you don't translate them yes
  • 00:16:29
    because they're already bilingual
  • 00:16:32
    probably what you do is you memorize the
  • 00:16:34
    half in the language that you're
  • 00:16:36
    learning using the half in the language
  • 00:16:38
    you already know to make sure you
  • 00:16:39
    understand what it means and then you go
  • 00:16:42
    and you perform it just the way nowadays
  • 00:16:46
    you know when you've learned your little
  • 00:16:47
    French dialogue then you go perform your
  • 00:16:50
    little French dialogue to show that you
  • 00:16:51
    know
  • 00:16:52
    it and while you're doing this you're
  • 00:16:55
    also learning all of these chunks of
  • 00:16:57
    vocab and So eventually you get to the
  • 00:17:01
    stage where you have enough vocab that
  • 00:17:04
    you can start reading an actual text now
  • 00:17:09
    obviously you're also doing some
  • 00:17:11
    conversation something oral but we don't
  • 00:17:14
    have as good evidence for what that is
  • 00:17:16
    because of course it's only the written
  • 00:17:18
    stuff that really
  • 00:17:19
    survives um but then when you when you
  • 00:17:24
    get to the stage where you can do
  • 00:17:26
    something um that is
  • 00:17:29
    that involves an actual text then you
  • 00:17:32
    get this text which you know it doesn't
  • 00:17:35
    have any word division maybe it doesn't
  • 00:17:37
    have any
  • 00:17:38
    punctuation um it's much harder than our
  • 00:17:42
    text and at this point you're also
  • 00:17:45
    usually reading something that was not
  • 00:17:46
    written for Learners so we write things
  • 00:17:51
    especially for Learners or we adopt them
  • 00:17:53
    especially for Learners and they do that
  • 00:17:55
    in the bilingual stage so those
  • 00:17:58
    bilingual texts are written especially
  • 00:17:59
    for Learners and occasionally they'll
  • 00:18:01
    take a a text that wasn't written for
  • 00:18:04
    Learners and they'll put it in that
  • 00:18:05
    bilingual format and then it's been
  • 00:18:08
    adapted um but when you've when you've
  • 00:18:12
    finished the bilingual stage you're
  • 00:18:13
    getting a real a real text and these
  • 00:18:17
    things are hard
  • 00:18:19
    so you you get a dictionary you look up
  • 00:18:23
    the words in the dictionary you write
  • 00:18:25
    the translation of the words over the
  • 00:18:28
    original the way our students do today
  • 00:18:30
    but unlike students today you've got to
  • 00:18:32
    put the punctuation in yourself which is
  • 00:18:34
    hard you've got to work out where the
  • 00:18:36
    words divide which is hard and then when
  • 00:18:40
    you've prepared your little chunk you go
  • 00:18:42
    up to the teacher and you read it alloud
  • 00:18:45
    with all the you know with all the
  • 00:18:46
    punctuation in the right place and the
  • 00:18:48
    right expression the rest of it and then
  • 00:18:50
    you translate it um and then you get
  • 00:18:54
    another bit to work on is that making
  • 00:18:56
    sense it makes complete and total sense
  • 00:18:59
    I am curious on uh one thing before
  • 00:19:04
    they're getting into these bilingual
  • 00:19:06
    texts of course and before they're even
  • 00:19:07
    maybe getting into the uh the bilingual
  • 00:19:10
    mini stories you said that they're
  • 00:19:12
    memorizing you know these vocab words
  • 00:19:15
    for instance yeah were they using rot
  • 00:19:17
    memory I didn't really mean before I
  • 00:19:20
    suspect simultaneous suspect that it's
  • 00:19:23
    the at the same time okay but it's very
  • 00:19:26
    hard to know because what we have is
  • 00:19:29
    mostly the materials right um but yes
  • 00:19:32
    they use a lot of rot memory in
  • 00:19:34
    Antiquity rot memory is a big thing not
  • 00:19:36
    just for language learning but more
  • 00:19:39
    General um it's how the education system
  • 00:19:42
    works and that's partly because if you
  • 00:19:46
    think about how their society Works
  • 00:19:49
    they're not a super literate Society we
  • 00:19:51
    are we are the most literate society
  • 00:19:54
    that has ever existed so we have
  • 00:19:56
    enormous amounts of information that
  • 00:19:59
    exists in writing and exists only in
  • 00:20:01
    writing an illiterate person has
  • 00:20:03
    terrible trouble getting around and just
  • 00:20:06
    doing basic things in the 21st century
  • 00:20:09
    but Antiquity is not like that indeed
  • 00:20:14
    it's writing that kind of has second
  • 00:20:18
    place and writing isn't very efficient
  • 00:20:21
    it's not just that there's no space
  • 00:20:23
    between The Words which you know it's
  • 00:20:25
    it's a problem that but also they have a
  • 00:20:28
    different book form so we have a book
  • 00:20:31
    form where it's relatively easy to find
  • 00:20:34
    things we have all these different pages
  • 00:20:37
    and the pages all have numbers and at
  • 00:20:39
    the start of every book we have a table
  • 00:20:40
    of contents explaining what kind of
  • 00:20:42
    things you got with each page and you
  • 00:20:45
    can open that book to any page you want
  • 00:20:48
    it's really kind of simple so if you
  • 00:20:50
    look in the table of contents and it
  • 00:20:52
    says I don't know laws about um about
  • 00:20:57
    cows are on page 45 and you want a law
  • 00:21:01
    about cows you open it to page 45 and
  • 00:21:03
    there are your laws about
  • 00:21:04
    cows but in Antiquity for most of
  • 00:21:08
    antiquity that a book consists of a
  • 00:21:10
    Papyrus rooll it's just a a long scroll
  • 00:21:15
    and you can't easily open it to any one
  • 00:21:17
    place and it doesn't have numbered Pages
  • 00:21:20
    it couldn't have numbered Pages because
  • 00:21:21
    it doesn't have
  • 00:21:23
    pages and it doesn't have a table of
  • 00:21:26
    contents at the start and
  • 00:21:29
    it doesn't have the kind of help that we
  • 00:21:32
    have so it doesn't have headings it
  • 00:21:34
    doesn't have
  • 00:21:36
    paragraphs um it's just a block of
  • 00:21:39
    text and that means that if you've got
  • 00:21:43
    something like that and you want to find
  • 00:21:44
    the laws about cows you don't know where
  • 00:21:47
    they are and
  • 00:21:50
    therefore even for people who are
  • 00:21:53
    literate and are functioning in a
  • 00:21:55
    literate way memory is just more useful
  • 00:21:58
    because if you want to know efficiently
  • 00:22:01
    where to find those laws about cows it
  • 00:22:03
    you you need them in your
  • 00:22:05
    head would it would it make sense to
  • 00:22:09
    draw the
  • 00:22:11
    inference that there long-term memory or
  • 00:22:15
    memory for stories was
  • 00:22:18
    incredibly good then yes okay they did a
  • 00:22:21
    lot of memory training and their memory
  • 00:22:24
    was much much better than ours yes all
  • 00:22:27
    right I mean yeah because I mean just in
  • 00:22:29
    my short span on the earth the fact that
  • 00:22:32
    I can't tell you anyone's number that
  • 00:22:35
    I've met after the year
  • 00:22:38
    1999 right uh tells you enough is that
  • 00:22:42
    you know we can't memorize seven we
  • 00:22:43
    don't even look at it anymore but uh
  • 00:22:46
    okay so I find that incredibly
  • 00:22:49
    fascinating let me give you just an
  • 00:22:51
    understanding of me uh a little bit and
  • 00:22:53
    and then we'll come back to some of the
  • 00:22:54
    the parts of the questions that I have I
  • 00:22:57
    was born in the US grew up in a family
  • 00:23:00
    that spoke English although my father is
  • 00:23:02
    from Nigeria and he grew up speaking
  • 00:23:05
    English as well but also Yuba and he was
  • 00:23:07
    obviously exposed to a whole lot of
  • 00:23:09
    other languages as well just uh there in
  • 00:23:11
    Nigeria my mother grew up she grew up in
  • 00:23:14
    um on the south side of
  • 00:23:15
    Chicago completely English
  • 00:23:18
    speaking it was her idea while I was
  • 00:23:21
    young that it would be a great idea for
  • 00:23:22
    me to learn Spanish and so I was exposed
  • 00:23:24
    to Spanish probably by the time I was
  • 00:23:25
    five or six right and so Spanish comes
  • 00:23:28
    very easy to me uh I don't have to think
  • 00:23:30
    very hard there's no struggle right even
  • 00:23:32
    when I didn't use it all that much you
  • 00:23:34
    know uh up until teenage
  • 00:23:37
    years I then went on to learn a whole
  • 00:23:40
    bunch of other other languages uh some
  • 00:23:42
    from travel and some from Individual and
  • 00:23:44
    so uh my individual use and those
  • 00:23:47
    languages being Spanish French Italian
  • 00:23:48
    which would make sense obviously English
  • 00:23:51
    I already mentioned um I learned German
  • 00:23:54
    essentially on my own um and then Danish
  • 00:23:58
    and Swedish I both played in I played in
  • 00:24:00
    Denmark first and that was my base and
  • 00:24:03
    then throughout the covid time I was
  • 00:24:05
    basically in Sweden and then I've played
  • 00:24:08
    a chunk of my career in the Balkan where
  • 00:24:11
    I'm at right now I'm actually in Zagreb
  • 00:24:13
    and so I learned Croatian and Serbian
  • 00:24:16
    first because I played in Serbia uh and
  • 00:24:19
    then I played in aeran for about two and
  • 00:24:20
    a half years so I learned Russian and
  • 00:24:22
    that was a conscious decision for me to
  • 00:24:23
    learn Russian rather than uh aani due to
  • 00:24:28
    my Slavic background right with all of
  • 00:24:32
    that came tons of mistakes as you can
  • 00:24:34
    imagine using the traditional method
  • 00:24:36
    over focusing on grammar sometimes not
  • 00:24:38
    knowing at all what I'm doing just kind
  • 00:24:40
    of shoving everything into my head right
  • 00:24:42
    just trying to figure it out and seeing
  • 00:24:43
    what's G to what's going to pop to some
  • 00:24:45
    more now refined methods and ways that I
  • 00:24:48
    see work and uh and I will say work for
  • 00:24:54
    me but that I found because um I have a
  • 00:24:58
    friend who just like you said is
  • 00:25:00
    horrendous with his ear learning like
  • 00:25:04
    that just doesn't you can tell what
  • 00:25:05
    comes out he doesn't have that gift
  • 00:25:07
    Talent what it's just not there it's not
  • 00:25:09
    there and so one of the most interesting
  • 00:25:11
    things was well he's an American
  • 00:25:13
    learning a Slavic language learning
  • 00:25:15
    Croatian where did all of the methods
  • 00:25:19
    where did the success come from if he
  • 00:25:20
    can't just hear it and speak it maybe I
  • 00:25:23
    can I can do that a little naturally
  • 00:25:24
    better um and so obviously immersion is
  • 00:25:29
    one of the greatest and easiest ways no
  • 00:25:30
    one's really going to going to debate
  • 00:25:32
    much of if you're there and you have to
  • 00:25:34
    and you have to use the language and all
  • 00:25:36
    of that versus actually there are some
  • 00:25:39
    people for whom immersion doesn't work
  • 00:25:41
    it's really fascinating there are people
  • 00:25:44
    okay you put them in a 247 linguistic
  • 00:25:48
    situation and they don't pick it up they
  • 00:25:50
    just don't get okay okay what what
  • 00:25:53
    happens do we know what works for them
  • 00:25:56
    instead I don't know I'm I'm I'm passing
  • 00:26:00
    they speak language there's another way
  • 00:26:02
    to teach these people the foreign
  • 00:26:03
    language but I definitely know people
  • 00:26:06
    uhuh for whom it just has not worked I
  • 00:26:09
    see that's I I find that interesting so
  • 00:26:11
    I learned two of the languages without
  • 00:26:13
    having gone to the country even when I
  • 00:26:16
    arrived in Italy for the first time I
  • 00:26:18
    could speak Italian and was able to tell
  • 00:26:20
    people this is my first day in Italian
  • 00:26:22
    in Italian you know it my first day here
  • 00:26:25
    and so I'm a learner I'm a very big
  • 00:26:29
    self-learner tons of books around here I
  • 00:26:31
    like learning that's my that's one of my
  • 00:26:34
    things that I like to do outside of
  • 00:26:35
    sports and um and so one of the I've
  • 00:26:40
    already found this fascinating I can
  • 00:26:41
    already see that I'm going to go watch
  • 00:26:43
    this everything that you just said to
  • 00:26:45
    understand uh ancient Rome and and and
  • 00:26:47
    Greece better one of the reasons I'm
  • 00:26:49
    doing this to is to try to find I know
  • 00:26:53
    like you said things will work
  • 00:26:54
    differently for different people however
  • 00:26:57
    just like if I I wanted to teach you how
  • 00:26:59
    to play soccer right and how to kick um
  • 00:27:03
    someone who doesn't know how to c kick
  • 00:27:05
    could waste a whole lot of your time
  • 00:27:06
    versus me who might just say well this
  • 00:27:08
    is that's not going to work this is
  • 00:27:09
    definitely gonna we can cut out we can
  • 00:27:11
    cut down your time drastically if you
  • 00:27:12
    guys don't have to figure it out and and
  • 00:27:15
    so I found at least some similarities
  • 00:27:18
    what appear to me within language
  • 00:27:20
    learning and that I'm hearing from other
  • 00:27:21
    polyglots and hearing from you know
  • 00:27:23
    people that are in positions like you
  • 00:27:24
    that are truly you know making it their
  • 00:27:26
    life's work to study this stuff and
  • 00:27:29
    um I'm G to assume you're aware of what
  • 00:27:32
    is a buzzword now but Dr Steven crash's
  • 00:27:34
    theory on comprehensible input are you
  • 00:27:37
    familiar with what this is I'm aware of
  • 00:27:39
    it but if you want me to comment on it
  • 00:27:41
    you're gonna have to give me a
  • 00:27:42
    refresher I will I will do my best to to
  • 00:27:47
    to summarize it but it's essentially
  • 00:27:50
    Theory based on SE language acquisition
  • 00:27:54
    that hopes to mimic the way in which we
  • 00:27:57
    learned our mother tongue stating that
  • 00:28:01
    the majority of what we learned was
  • 00:28:02
    through comprehensible input at first
  • 00:28:05
    meaning that we saw something and I said
  • 00:28:08
    this is a headphone you know I didn't
  • 00:28:09
    spell out headphone I didn't have you
  • 00:28:11
    break down I didn't write to you as a
  • 00:28:13
    two-year-old what what it was you can't
  • 00:28:15
    read right but I had to say this
  • 00:28:18
    headphone and then I would maybe do
  • 00:28:19
    something like ah this is a head maybe
  • 00:28:21
    use something else is a phone we put it
  • 00:28:22
    up to and you figured it out right
  • 00:28:24
    through the the fact that you understood
  • 00:28:27
    what I was saying even though you
  • 00:28:29
    probably couldn't repeat it just is what
  • 00:28:30
    happens to Children of course they're
  • 00:28:33
    taking in tons and tons of input
  • 00:28:35
    throughout those first year two years
  • 00:28:37
    three years however long before they
  • 00:28:38
    want to have their first words and then
  • 00:28:40
    you know an assimilation process happens
  • 00:28:43
    that allows them to then speak and speak
  • 00:28:45
    correctly even they're getting constant
  • 00:28:47
    feedback they'll say this is red you'll
  • 00:28:49
    say no it's blue and they'll put the
  • 00:28:51
    words in the wrong order and that's
  • 00:28:52
    essentially the basis behind it it's an
  • 00:28:55
    attempt to mimic uh how we learn
  • 00:28:57
    language is naturally and uh to make it
  • 00:29:01
    all full circle I the guy who couldn't
  • 00:29:05
    hear his name is Tyler and he's not very
  • 00:29:07
    good at at languages in Slavic language
  • 00:29:09
    versus in English it's very very distant
  • 00:29:11
    you know and and so we can't just break
  • 00:29:13
    down the words they don't mean anything
  • 00:29:14
    to him it'd be easier for him to learn
  • 00:29:16
    Swedish or Danish or German or something
  • 00:29:18
    like this and so the comprehensible
  • 00:29:20
    input method helped a whole lot because
  • 00:29:22
    it it took off and while his brain is
  • 00:29:24
    very
  • 00:29:25
    analytical he just can't when you're to
  • 00:29:28
    break down these words you have to learn
  • 00:29:29
    it's a whole it's alien it's literally
  • 00:29:31
    alien you know Slavic text versus an
  • 00:29:33
    English text yeah no I tried to learn
  • 00:29:35
    polish and it didn't work I've learned
  • 00:29:37
    quite a few modern languages well not as
  • 00:29:40
    many as you definitely sure um but but
  • 00:29:44
    yeah the Slavic ones didn't work for me
  • 00:29:46
    and the Semitic ones worked even less
  • 00:29:49
    and that's precisely for the reason that
  • 00:29:51
    you say that okay these these words were
  • 00:29:54
    too foreign for me there was nothing I
  • 00:29:56
    could really hang them on on in my brain
  • 00:29:58
    that I already knew and so they didn't
  • 00:30:02
    stick right uh so I I was curious a what
  • 00:30:06
    you think of that as being let's say
  • 00:30:08
    better I I like you you mentioned those
  • 00:30:11
    people that take four years of French I
  • 00:30:13
    did take four years of Spanish but the
  • 00:30:15
    reason I took it was just for the EAS a
  • 00:30:16
    because I wanted to play football that's
  • 00:30:18
    why I took it right but my friends
  • 00:30:20
    wanted to learn and they don't speak any
  • 00:30:22
    Spanish they speak absolutely zero and
  • 00:30:24
    so my question then becomes why are we
  • 00:30:26
    still teaching in the traditional method
  • 00:30:28
    even though some of them may not come
  • 00:30:31
    out obviously speaking but could we not
  • 00:30:33
    just like in my analogy of the
  • 00:30:35
    footballer the soccer player wants to
  • 00:30:36
    teach you could we not make them give
  • 00:30:38
    them a little bit more of a leg up by
  • 00:30:41
    using this the other this is something
  • 00:30:44
    that gets debated a lot um and I think
  • 00:30:48
    it's it's really complicated because the
  • 00:30:50
    the data are not as clear as I think
  • 00:30:52
    you're presenting them as being okay um
  • 00:30:55
    I Heard a a fascinating lecture from a
  • 00:30:58
    linguist who said you know we all think
  • 00:31:01
    of natural language acquisition that
  • 00:31:04
    children do as being kind of the gold
  • 00:31:06
    standard because they learn so well
  • 00:31:10
    without putting any work in but he says
  • 00:31:14
    that's not really true if you look at a
  • 00:31:15
    small child trying to learn language
  • 00:31:18
    they're working really really hard it's
  • 00:31:20
    most of what they do for about five
  • 00:31:23
    years and at the end of it they sound
  • 00:31:25
    like a five-year-old and so if we manage
  • 00:31:28
    to exactly duplicate that with an adult
  • 00:31:32
    learning French you're going to work
  • 00:31:34
    full-time on it for five years and
  • 00:31:35
    you'll sound like a five-year-old and he
  • 00:31:38
    had a certain point there um that I
  • 00:31:41
    think we we tend to underestimate how
  • 00:31:44
    hard that natural method is and how much
  • 00:31:49
    how much time it
  • 00:31:51
    takes and I think the people who for
  • 00:31:54
    whom immersion doesn't work are often
  • 00:31:56
    people who you know they don't stick it
  • 00:31:58
    out they don't do it fulltime for five
  • 00:32:01
    years because they can't stand it and
  • 00:32:04
    they don't have the time you the five
  • 00:32:05
    year-old does have
  • 00:32:07
    the um there's a very interesting set of
  • 00:32:10
    experiments going on at Oxford
  • 00:32:11
    University at the moment about teaching
  • 00:32:13
    Latin orally and of course Latin is
  • 00:32:16
    normally taught entirely through um
  • 00:32:20
    grammar and
  • 00:32:21
    translation um and it you know there
  • 00:32:24
    isn't normally a speaking component and
  • 00:32:26
    they're experimenting with a speaking
  • 00:32:29
    component which enables one to use some
  • 00:32:33
    of these comprehensible input theories
  • 00:32:37
    um more
  • 00:32:38
    easily and what they seem to be finding
  • 00:32:42
    is that overall it is working better but
  • 00:32:46
    it's not working for everyone and it's
  • 00:32:49
    not always working
  • 00:32:51
    enormously better I think overall it is
  • 00:32:54
    working better but part of the reason
  • 00:32:56
    it's working better is people putting
  • 00:32:58
    more time in and of course any system is
  • 00:33:01
    going to work better if you put more if
  • 00:33:04
    you put more time in and for some
  • 00:33:08
    people you know if you look at how the
  • 00:33:11
    brain is structured there are things
  • 00:33:13
    that are connected to your ears that are
  • 00:33:16
    not connected to your eyes and so if you
  • 00:33:20
    learn a language using both your ears
  • 00:33:23
    and your eyes you've got actually more
  • 00:33:25
    bits of your brain available to help you
  • 00:33:27
    that
  • 00:33:28
    language um of course if you do it only
  • 00:33:31
    with your ears then you maybe don't have
  • 00:33:33
    more bits available than if you did it
  • 00:33:35
    only with your eyes but if you do it
  • 00:33:37
    both ways you've got more bits available
  • 00:33:39
    which gives you a leg up I think it
  • 00:33:41
    can't be a question that if you you're
  • 00:33:43
    engaging more bits of your brain you've
  • 00:33:45
    got to leg
  • 00:33:46
    up but there are people
  • 00:33:50
    who who feel really shy and inhibited
  • 00:33:54
    about speaking in a foreign
  • 00:33:56
    language and and active production is
  • 00:34:00
    really really helpful for language
  • 00:34:02
    learning so if you try to learn it only
  • 00:34:06
    passively so that you you can maybe read
  • 00:34:08
    it you can maybe understand it but you
  • 00:34:10
    never are trying to produce it again
  • 00:34:14
    you're missing out on on things your
  • 00:34:17
    brain can do that are that are
  • 00:34:20
    helpful
  • 00:34:22
    and so when you have students who just
  • 00:34:25
    can't face opening their mouths in a
  • 00:34:27
    foreign
  • 00:34:29
    language the oral method has some
  • 00:34:32
    problems so although basically I'm in
  • 00:34:35
    favor of an oral method because I think
  • 00:34:39
    overall it works better um to kind of
  • 00:34:42
    combine speaking with learning grammar
  • 00:34:46
    and with reading and with writing I
  • 00:34:48
    think the more different things you do
  • 00:34:51
    the better it works I think I have to
  • 00:34:54
    acknowledge that different people work
  • 00:34:56
    differently
  • 00:34:58
    and that therefore in an ideal world
  • 00:35:00
    everybody would take a diagnostic class
  • 00:35:02
    be diagnostic test before they started a
  • 00:35:04
    language class and then would learn by
  • 00:35:07
    the
  • 00:35:08
    method that fits them the best right and
  • 00:35:14
    uh well what's interesting about that in
  • 00:35:17
    the oral method I'm not sure I know that
  • 00:35:20
    I so number one I would I would agree
  • 00:35:23
    with you 100% that
  • 00:35:25
    desire the decision and desire to learn
  • 00:35:28
    the language is above all because they
  • 00:35:31
    will push through like you said the
  • 00:35:34
    immersion you know if they just are just
  • 00:35:36
    going to stick it out no matter what
  • 00:35:38
    however long it takes that usually
  • 00:35:40
    brings some sort of results better than
  • 00:35:42
    a structured course in class and kind of
  • 00:35:44
    offloading the responsibility to the
  • 00:35:46
    school and someone else uh what I what's
  • 00:35:49
    funny now I don't know whether or not
  • 00:35:52
    what I would consider My Method truly
  • 00:35:54
    while it incorporates portions of the
  • 00:35:56
    comprehensible input method I do so many
  • 00:35:58
    other things and I've I've seen and
  • 00:36:01
    talked to other polyglots that I know
  • 00:36:03
    that they do too but one of the most
  • 00:36:05
    important things I've seen number one uh
  • 00:36:07
    people who have issues talking to other
  • 00:36:09
    people talk to themselves I I have full
  • 00:36:12
    conversations with people within my own
  • 00:36:14
    head uh you know on a constant basis
  • 00:36:17
    with a limited vocab which is yes now
  • 00:36:20
    I've done that too when I was learning
  • 00:36:23
    Norwegian um and I had some problems
  • 00:36:25
    with Norwegian because I was living on a
  • 00:36:27
    farm and they spoke this dialect and I
  • 00:36:30
    hadn't yet understood that the problem
  • 00:36:32
    was the norion I was learning was not
  • 00:36:33
    the same norion that they were speaking
  • 00:36:35
    so there wasn't any comprehensible input
  • 00:36:37
    coming in here yeah and so I would go
  • 00:36:40
    for these long walks and think in
  • 00:36:42
    Norwegian and I had to bring a
  • 00:36:44
    dictionary in order to
  • 00:36:47
    think yes you know it seems really silly
  • 00:36:50
    but in the end I did manage to learn a
  • 00:36:52
    reasonable amount of Norwegian I'm not
  • 00:36:54
    sure I still know it but it did it did
  • 00:36:57
    get me
  • 00:36:58
    to a point where I could start producing
  • 00:37:00
    enough Norwegian um I'm not I'm not the
  • 00:37:04
    kind who who is shy about speaking it
  • 00:37:06
    has to be said but it's
  • 00:37:08
    nevertheless I agree with you 100% doing
  • 00:37:11
    it in your head to yourself is is really
  • 00:37:14
    really helpful that of course is not
  • 00:37:17
    something that anybody but the person
  • 00:37:19
    concerned can do um you know if you want
  • 00:37:23
    to learn the language you can do that in
  • 00:37:26
    your head um um I mean I've tried
  • 00:37:29
    learning lots of different languages in
  • 00:37:31
    different ways so I've done I've done
  • 00:37:35
    Latin and Greek sort of the traditional
  • 00:37:36
    way where you um you do the grammar and
  • 00:37:40
    you do the
  • 00:37:41
    translation and then I thought I'm G to
  • 00:37:45
    learn Swiss German as a as a purely
  • 00:37:49
    non-written language and I'm not going
  • 00:37:51
    to look at any written materials at all
  • 00:37:53
    and I'm going to see how that
  • 00:37:55
    goes and
  • 00:37:58
    then I started doing the spoken Latin as
  • 00:38:00
    well to see how that goes um I learned
  • 00:38:04
    Swedish purely by reading I didn't need
  • 00:38:07
    any active competence in Swedish I only
  • 00:38:10
    needed passive and of course once you
  • 00:38:12
    have some Norwegian Swedish is not that
  • 00:38:14
    not that hard um but I just got some
  • 00:38:18
    long books out of the library and bashed
  • 00:38:20
    my way through them so you know I have
  • 00:38:22
    tried different methods but I don't
  • 00:38:25
    think I'm in your category but one of
  • 00:38:27
    the people who finds it easier than most
  • 00:38:31
    sure you found it easier even from the
  • 00:38:33
    get-go yes yes well not when I was in
  • 00:38:36
    elementary school but by the time I was
  • 00:38:39
    in junior high school I was it was just
  • 00:38:42
    easier for me to learn languages sure
  • 00:38:44
    than most people so I think I think
  • 00:38:47
    there is there is a certain question of
  • 00:38:50
    I don't know whether one wants to call
  • 00:38:52
    it talent but there is sure there are
  • 00:38:54
    some people who find it easier and it's
  • 00:38:57
    cumulative because you know learning one
  • 00:39:01
    language is not totally different from
  • 00:39:03
    learning another language so the more
  • 00:39:04
    you learn the better you get at it and
  • 00:39:08
    that's particularly true if you start
  • 00:39:09
    learning languages that are related to
  • 00:39:11
    each other because you kind of know what
  • 00:39:13
    kind of things they're going to do but
  • 00:39:15
    even with unrelated languages once
  • 00:39:17
    you've learn one foreign language you
  • 00:39:19
    you're aware where English is really
  • 00:39:22
    idiosyncratic and so you're not you're
  • 00:39:25
    not expecting languages to to all be
  • 00:39:28
    like English in a way that the first
  • 00:39:30
    time around you
  • 00:39:32
    are um so you know people who are good
  • 00:39:37
    at it and like doing it get better and
  • 00:39:39
    better and better at
  • 00:39:41
    it and we can use methods that I
  • 00:39:44
    wouldn't really recommend for people who
  • 00:39:46
    are just starting out so you know my
  • 00:39:48
    experiment with Swiss German it was fun
  • 00:39:52
    but it was a linguist kind of fun it
  • 00:39:55
    wasn't something that I would that I
  • 00:39:56
    would commend right for someone who just
  • 00:39:59
    who needs to learn Swiss German because
  • 00:40:01
    they're moving to Switzerland or etc etc
  • 00:40:03
    yeah but also who who doesn't have a lot
  • 00:40:05
    of experience in learning foreign
  • 00:40:07
    languages it was a it was the kind of
  • 00:40:08
    game you play when you've done it
  • 00:40:11
    multiple times and I think when if we
  • 00:40:15
    come back to Latin and Greek learning
  • 00:40:17
    Greek was almost always the first
  • 00:40:19
    foreign language for a Roman but Latin
  • 00:40:22
    was not necessarily the first foreign
  • 00:40:25
    language going the other way because
  • 00:40:27
    because a lot of people who were Greek
  • 00:40:30
    speakers were not native Greek speakers
  • 00:40:33
    um so they might have been for
  • 00:40:35
    example actually from a bilingual Greek
  • 00:40:38
    Egyptian family or even from an Egyptian
  • 00:40:40
    family and then they learned Greek in
  • 00:40:42
    school and then they decided they wanted
  • 00:40:44
    to go into Roman law and now they're
  • 00:40:46
    learning Latin I see um they've already
  • 00:40:49
    got some of these skills that you learn
  • 00:40:52
    from learning a foreign language right
  • 00:40:55
    uh one of the things that I was going to
  • 00:40:57
    add to the to the method and things just
  • 00:40:59
    by thinking and another one thing that I
  • 00:41:01
    found and I think it's in line a little
  • 00:41:04
    bit with what they were trying to do in
  • 00:41:06
    Antiquity is seeking to understand I
  • 00:41:10
    found that when you have a story and
  • 00:41:12
    when you have a concept like they've
  • 00:41:13
    broken things into Birds fish animals
  • 00:41:15
    and and stuff like this or however they
  • 00:41:17
    would do it human body whatever um by
  • 00:41:20
    seeking to understand a story by seeking
  • 00:41:22
    to understand a concept or something
  • 00:41:24
    greater something that's greater than
  • 00:41:26
    the words that you're looking
  • 00:41:29
    at it just kind of something else
  • 00:41:32
    happens along you're no longer putting
  • 00:41:35
    pegs on this white wall without any sort
  • 00:41:37
    of connection you've got this concept to
  • 00:41:39
    it and context as we know definitely is
  • 00:41:42
    very helpful when trying to understand
  • 00:41:44
    you may not be able to
  • 00:41:46
    reproduce What You've just read or or
  • 00:41:49
    learned or heard or however it is but at
  • 00:41:52
    the very least you know you know
  • 00:41:54
    something you're G you understand
  • 00:41:57
    something something and that's a huge
  • 00:41:58
    point and something that I think gets
  • 00:42:00
    missed at least from what I've seen for
  • 00:42:01
    the people who are asking I'm trying to
  • 00:42:03
    learn this language I'm trying this and
  • 00:42:04
    I kind of analyze a little bit what
  • 00:42:05
    they're what they're doing and there's
  • 00:42:07
    all these all these things all over the
  • 00:42:09
    place they've got dualingo teaching them
  • 00:42:11
    some words about this stuff kind of over
  • 00:42:12
    here and over here they're doing this
  • 00:42:13
    and there's no story there's no nothing
  • 00:42:15
    that they kind of Peg themselves for a
  • 00:42:17
    win because what I found for sure for
  • 00:42:20
    some of the people that it's hard for
  • 00:42:21
    it's so important to get that early win
  • 00:42:23
    within language to keep you going most
  • 00:42:25
    people take the thing
  • 00:42:27
    this this is too hard I don't get it
  • 00:42:29
    this whatever or they maybe they they
  • 00:42:31
    have great persistence they stick with
  • 00:42:32
    it for six months and it's just not no
  • 00:42:35
    wins and no wins leads to you quitting
  • 00:42:38
    that's how it works we don't keep doing
  • 00:42:39
    things that we're bad at or we're not
  • 00:42:41
    succeeding at yeah that's really true
  • 00:42:45
    and so I I found that seeking to
  • 00:42:46
    understand was was was huge as well as
  • 00:42:48
    well as you know at least utilizing the
  • 00:42:49
    comprehensible method there's a definite
  • 00:42:52
    definite difference between taking
  • 00:42:54
    something and while I float for a lot of
  • 00:42:57
    people just at that beginner stage
  • 00:42:58
    because most people don't get past the
  • 00:43:01
    beginner to say intermediate there's a
  • 00:43:03
    big difference between deciding that you
  • 00:43:05
    want to go from I'm I can communicate
  • 00:43:07
    walking into the store to I want to read
  • 00:43:11
    this ancient book in that language
  • 00:43:14
    there's a big switch there's a lot of
  • 00:43:16
    writing and thinking and that that
  • 00:43:18
    energy input is long and you're not
  • 00:43:20
    going to see any light at the end of the
  • 00:43:22
    tunnel for a while and then it will you
  • 00:43:24
    know event you just go whoa you know I
  • 00:43:27
    understand everything I don't have to
  • 00:43:28
    think about this and it's great and so
  • 00:43:30
    that there's a big switch there uh let
  • 00:43:33
    me just check one of my so you when
  • 00:43:36
    you're thinking of uh Latin and and
  • 00:43:40
    Greek the way that you go about them now
  • 00:43:43
    do you read text or what I guess I
  • 00:43:45
    should ask you because you're so I
  • 00:43:46
    didn't know you were so talented as well
  • 00:43:49
    what languages do you speak or do you
  • 00:43:51
    feel comfortable in or that you've
  • 00:43:53
    studied even the ones that you've
  • 00:43:54
    forgotten and what do you consider your
  • 00:43:57
    strongest and what are you using
  • 00:43:59
    constantly right um my strongest might
  • 00:44:03
    actually be French um which is the first
  • 00:44:05
    one that I learned I was in Paris for
  • 00:44:09
    two months last year teaching in French
  • 00:44:12
    at the
  • 00:44:13
    sorbon
  • 00:44:14
    and I didn't really have a problem with
  • 00:44:17
    the French there it takes me a little
  • 00:44:18
    longer than teaching an English but but
  • 00:44:21
    basically um I would say French is proba
  • 00:44:24
    it's probably stronger either than Greek
  • 00:44:26
    or Latin me which is a bit weird given I
  • 00:44:29
    put you know I put my whole career in on
  • 00:44:31
    Latin and Greek but French is just a lot
  • 00:44:33
    easier um and then probably German and
  • 00:44:38
    Latin would pretty much tie for second
  • 00:44:42
    and I would say when it comes when it
  • 00:44:45
    comes
  • 00:44:46
    to reading and writing probably better
  • 00:44:49
    in Latin and when it comes to speaking
  • 00:44:51
    and probably better in German um I have
  • 00:44:54
    done some spoken Latin but it's still
  • 00:44:56
    not that easy for me
  • 00:44:59
    um
  • 00:45:01
    and
  • 00:45:03
    then
  • 00:45:04
    Greek definitely um comes after Latin
  • 00:45:08
    but probably before any other modern
  • 00:45:10
    languages and then we're into things
  • 00:45:13
    that I have at one time known better
  • 00:45:15
    than I now do so I spent some time in
  • 00:45:18
    Leiden and I learned Dutch but the Dutch
  • 00:45:22
    is not currently all that functional um
  • 00:45:26
    as spent some time in Switzerland I
  • 00:45:28
    learned Swiss German but it's not
  • 00:45:29
    currently all that functional spent some
  • 00:45:31
    time in Wales and I learned Welsh I
  • 00:45:32
    spent some time in Norway and I learned
  • 00:45:34
    Norwegian I spent some time in Italy and
  • 00:45:36
    I've learned Italian at least three
  • 00:45:38
    times but it doesn't stick partly
  • 00:45:40
    because it gets confused with French um
  • 00:45:43
    yeah I did a bit of modern Greek I did
  • 00:45:47
    some Hebrew I did two years of Hebrew I
  • 00:45:49
    should have ended up with more Hebrew
  • 00:45:50
    than I did but let's face it the Hebrew
  • 00:45:52
    never really clicked I did eight weeks
  • 00:45:55
    of Arabic and that didn't click either
  • 00:45:58
    um I did a little tiny bit of Polish and
  • 00:46:02
    that didn't work and then there's a
  • 00:46:03
    bunch of ancient languages that I've
  • 00:46:05
    kind of looked at so liian and hittite
  • 00:46:10
    and um askan and umbre and and you know
  • 00:46:13
    these are languages that nobody nobody
  • 00:46:15
    knows really all that well um but but
  • 00:46:20
    I've had a look at them but then I've
  • 00:46:21
    forgotten them wow okay that is very
  • 00:46:26
    very FAS so you had massive exposure to
  • 00:46:29
    different languages uh and even courses
  • 00:46:32
    and stuff like that uh I would I would
  • 00:46:35
    be curious then even given what we've
  • 00:46:38
    already said about different methods and
  • 00:46:40
    things I'm curious myself how would you
  • 00:46:43
    go about it for
  • 00:46:44
    someone who would want to learn I I'll
  • 00:46:48
    give you two since this is a unique
  • 00:46:51
    opportunity how would you go about it if
  • 00:46:54
    you could give a simple breakdown of the
  • 00:46:56
    first attempts for someone to try and
  • 00:46:58
    learn Latin uh to speak in Latin and
  • 00:47:02
    obviously to read or to be able to read
  • 00:47:03
    if their goal if their grand goal is to
  • 00:47:06
    be able to read some of these ancient
  • 00:47:08
    texts and then how would you go about it
  • 00:47:10
    if you just had to I don't think I heard
  • 00:47:13
    Spanish on your that's right Spanish is
  • 00:47:15
    one I haven't done okay so yeah if you
  • 00:47:17
    were going to learn Spanish that would
  • 00:47:19
    be another one that I would do so if you
  • 00:47:20
    could separate those two uh into how you
  • 00:47:23
    would approach them I'd love to hear
  • 00:47:24
    okay so Spanish is me and Latin is
  • 00:47:27
    somebody else
  • 00:47:28
    yes
  • 00:47:29
    uh yes yes yes exactly okay so for
  • 00:47:33
    somebody else trying to learn
  • 00:47:35
    Latin I would I'd really want to know
  • 00:47:39
    who they are and what they find hard and
  • 00:47:42
    easy and I'd really want to spend some
  • 00:47:44
    time sitting down with this person
  • 00:47:45
    trying to understand what would work for
  • 00:47:47
    them because I really think people are
  • 00:47:49
    different um but regardless of who they
  • 00:47:52
    are I would recommend that they find a
  • 00:47:54
    Latin teacher I think while learning
  • 00:47:56
    learning um by yourself is possible it
  • 00:47:59
    just is harder for most people than with
  • 00:48:02
    a
  • 00:48:03
    teacher and ideally I would recommend a
  • 00:48:07
    Latin teacher who speaks it as well as
  • 00:48:10
    being able to read and write it and I
  • 00:48:12
    would recommend doing the the kind of
  • 00:48:15
    mixed approach and I would
  • 00:48:19
    recommend starting off with doing some
  • 00:48:23
    reading so always start with with a
  • 00:48:29
    text and with grammar sorry I interrupt
  • 00:48:33
    that famous one I I've never really I've
  • 00:48:36
    never attempted to learn Latin myself
  • 00:48:37
    but there's that famous one with
  • 00:48:39
    the Rome is this the river is I'm not
  • 00:48:44
    sure of its name it's popular know I
  • 00:48:47
    don't actually know what you're talking
  • 00:48:48
    very very popular very but I'm sorry
  • 00:48:53
    yeah go ahead I'll find it um so there
  • 00:48:57
    are lots of different textbooks and
  • 00:48:59
    which textbook you use is going to be
  • 00:49:01
    intimately connected with which teacher
  • 00:49:02
    you use because most teachers are only
  • 00:49:04
    prepared to teach out of one or at most
  • 00:49:05
    two different textbooks so i' tell them
  • 00:49:08
    to find a teacher that they get on with
  • 00:49:10
    that they feel inspired by that they
  • 00:49:12
    feel they click with and find a textbook
  • 00:49:17
    that works for that teacher um my sense
  • 00:49:21
    is that with most different textbooks
  • 00:49:24
    you can actually learn it makes it makes
  • 00:49:25
    a lot less difference which textbook you
  • 00:49:27
    use than people think but that you
  • 00:49:30
    should you should have some grammar from
  • 00:49:33
    day one because Latin is hard without
  • 00:49:35
    grammar you should have some reading
  • 00:49:38
    from day one because any language is
  • 00:49:40
    hard if it's just disembodied bits and
  • 00:49:43
    you should have some speaking from day
  • 00:49:46
    one because that engages different bits
  • 00:49:49
    of your brain um and you should work
  • 00:49:52
    with a with a teacher now for me if I
  • 00:49:54
    was going to learn Spanish um it would
  • 00:49:57
    partly depend on why I was learning
  • 00:50:00
    Spanish but assuming that I want to
  • 00:50:02
    learn like all four bits of it so I can
  • 00:50:05
    I can read it and write it and speak it
  • 00:50:08
    and hear it I would go and I would look
  • 00:50:11
    for a Spanish speaker to to help me
  • 00:50:14
    because I really think like I said
  • 00:50:16
    learning languages works better if you
  • 00:50:18
    have doesn't have to be like a
  • 00:50:20
    professional teacher but somebody I'd
  • 00:50:22
    want somebody whose Spanish was good um
  • 00:50:25
    preferably native
  • 00:50:27
    um and I would want a textbook because I
  • 00:50:32
    would want some grammar um
  • 00:50:36
    grammar doesn't doesn't bother me at all
  • 00:50:39
    I've done grammar of lots of languages
  • 00:50:40
    and I think it's
  • 00:50:42
    easier to be told how the irregular
  • 00:50:45
    verbs conjugate than to have to work it
  • 00:50:47
    out for yourself how the irregular verbs
  • 00:50:49
    conjugate so I'd want I'd want that kind
  • 00:50:52
    of information and I'd want a text um
  • 00:50:56
    and one reason I have not learned
  • 00:50:57
    Spanish is that when I was a graduate
  • 00:51:00
    student I learned Italian like I said
  • 00:51:02
    for two years solid I took Italian
  • 00:51:04
    classes it didn't do me much good I had
  • 00:51:06
    to read some Italian So eventually I go
  • 00:51:08
    off to the library and say I'm just
  • 00:51:09
    going to bash through this Italian
  • 00:51:11
    article and I sit there for two days
  • 00:51:13
    with this 80-page article and a big
  • 00:51:15
    Italian dictionary and it goes it works
  • 00:51:17
    I understand what's in this article but
  • 00:51:20
    every time I look up a word in the
  • 00:51:21
    dictionary it's never exactly the same
  • 00:51:23
    in the dictionary as it is in the text
  • 00:51:25
    and I don't really understand why until
  • 00:51:27
    I get to the very end and it says Madrid
  • 00:51:31
    and I realized that that article was not
  • 00:51:33
    in Italian that article was in Spanish
  • 00:51:37
    wow but I got through it anyway and I
  • 00:51:40
    had understood what it said even though
  • 00:51:42
    I was using an Italian dictionary
  • 00:51:43
    instead of a Spanish dictionary because
  • 00:51:46
    when it's something in your subject
  • 00:51:48
    matter and you know other romance
  • 00:51:51
    languages you can you can do it so
  • 00:51:53
    that's why I never bothered to learn
  • 00:51:55
    Spanish um but assuming that I really do
  • 00:51:58
    want to learn Spanish I would then you
  • 00:52:00
    know I'd want a text um and I'd want a
  • 00:52:04
    grammar and I'd want a a human being and
  • 00:52:08
    what I'd want from that human being
  • 00:52:09
    wouldn't be Direction so I would go
  • 00:52:12
    through the grammar and I would read the
  • 00:52:16
    text but then I'd want to meet that
  • 00:52:19
    human being for at least an hour a week
  • 00:52:21
    and speak to them in Spanish about what
  • 00:52:25
    I was doing so I could ask questions
  • 00:52:27
    about the stuff I didn't understand and
  • 00:52:29
    I'd want to do that in
  • 00:52:32
    Spanish I see uh I 100% agree it's funny
  • 00:52:36
    too just to to go to your your part on
  • 00:52:41
    grammar
  • 00:52:42
    it's utilizing it's like just enough
  • 00:52:45
    there needs to be just enough I when
  • 00:52:48
    learning German got way too caught up on
  • 00:52:51
    the grammar because I was like what is
  • 00:52:53
    this the words got to go here this verb
  • 00:52:55
    two verbs
  • 00:52:57
    this and what there what is going on I
  • 00:53:00
    got so so caught up in it that learning
  • 00:53:02
    the language stopped being the thing
  • 00:53:03
    that I was actually doing without me
  • 00:53:05
    knowing this an obsession with the rules
  • 00:53:07
    is what end up ended up happening and
  • 00:53:09
    that's what happens when you go grammar
  • 00:53:11
    extreme what was nice was when I finally
  • 00:53:14
    switched and realized what was happening
  • 00:53:16
    and started to get it the fact that I I
  • 00:53:19
    know the the the triggers for the the
  • 00:53:22
    dative case you know and the
  • 00:53:24
    prepositions and I know all that because
  • 00:53:25
    I had this weird session on German
  • 00:53:27
    grammar for for a while and it it
  • 00:53:30
    actually ended up helping me when I
  • 00:53:31
    started to formulate sentences and the I
  • 00:53:34
    know what this is and I don't feel you
  • 00:53:36
    know I'm very confident about this I
  • 00:53:37
    know the rule right and so there has to
  • 00:53:40
    be it is better you're right if I can if
  • 00:53:43
    you can tell me how to do the irregular
  • 00:53:45
    verbs or even the standard conjugation
  • 00:53:49
    yeah it's nice it's nice to know than
  • 00:53:51
    figuring it all out yourself but as a
  • 00:53:53
    list form right it's kind of not to not
  • 00:53:55
    don't get stuck on on this because
  • 00:53:57
    that's not the language isn't the
  • 00:53:58
    grammar the language grammar or the
  • 00:54:00
    rules and so I like what you've done
  • 00:54:03
    with your tutor and and specifically
  • 00:54:07
    especially because what ends up
  • 00:54:08
    happening what I've seen at least is
  • 00:54:10
    that the tutors will come in with their
  • 00:54:13
    prepackaged no understanding of you what
  • 00:54:15
    you are what your goals are what this
  • 00:54:17
    ours and they they'll give this token
  • 00:54:19
    word to yes we tailor it to you but
  • 00:54:21
    really they'll just come in with their
  • 00:54:22
    package and they'll do this and what
  • 00:54:24
    you've done is create a course in which
  • 00:54:27
    you want to talk to them about what you
  • 00:54:28
    want to talk about the subjects that you
  • 00:54:30
    are interested in that you have maybe
  • 00:54:32
    even done some work outside of obviously
  • 00:54:34
    the class to do so which is tough to get
  • 00:54:37
    in a um in a school right we can't all
  • 00:54:39
    tailor till all 20 of you but it's not
  • 00:54:42
    hard to find a speaker and you know I
  • 00:54:46
    don't need a teacher I need a speaker or
  • 00:54:49
    somebody who has the knowledge if it's a
  • 00:54:51
    if it's a non-spoken language and when I
  • 00:54:53
    was a student I used to just trade with
  • 00:54:55
    my friends so like I started learning
  • 00:54:58
    Welsh because I had a friend who was a
  • 00:55:00
    native speaker of Welsh she wanted to
  • 00:55:02
    learn ancient Greek and I wanted to
  • 00:55:06
    learn Welsh so we swapped and we met up
  • 00:55:09
    every two or three days and we spend an
  • 00:55:11
    hour where I'd help her with Greek and
  • 00:55:14
    an hour where she'd help me with Welsh
  • 00:55:16
    and it was just fun it was a nice fun
  • 00:55:19
    way to interact with one's
  • 00:55:20
    friends and and there wasn't there
  • 00:55:23
    wasn't any grind to it at all yeah yeah
  • 00:55:27
    so I and you know I like being in charge
  • 00:55:29
    of my own language learning yeah yeah
  • 00:55:32
    which is something that I I've I've
  • 00:55:33
    wanted to try in preach uh and I it's
  • 00:55:36
    kind of and I know this is two people
  • 00:55:38
    talking who enjoy language learning and
  • 00:55:40
    enjoy the process but uh we haven't um
  • 00:55:44
    delegated our responsibility to learn
  • 00:55:46
    the language to someone else or to an
  • 00:55:48
    institution you've very much taken
  • 00:55:49
    control over it and and made it work for
  • 00:55:52
    you so um I won't take any more time I
  • 00:55:56
    have other questions but I will what I
  • 00:55:58
    will what I will do is I'll find that
  • 00:56:00
    Latin book because I think it would be
  • 00:56:01
    interesting I'd love to hear your your
  • 00:56:03
    okay thoughts on it it's very popular
  • 00:56:06
    and it kind of follows the
  • 00:56:07
    comprehensible input method let's say
  • 00:56:10
    because it's very it's very basic um and
  • 00:56:12
    it gets people from absolutely no Latin
  • 00:56:15
    to understanding you know a little bit
  • 00:56:18
    and uh I definitely I'm going to have
  • 00:56:20
    some other questions I think I'll have
  • 00:56:22
    questions on
  • 00:56:23
    even what diagnostic questions you would
  • 00:56:26
    want to find out if you could run a
  • 00:56:28
    diagnosis on everybody before they you
  • 00:56:32
    know learned a language what would you
  • 00:56:35
    want to ask them so um in any case we
  • 00:56:38
    will edit this to make it look
  • 00:56:40
    tremendous uh and and break things down
  • 00:56:43
    and probably put things in little short
  • 00:56:45
    stuff but this has been utterly
  • 00:56:47
    fascinating awesome thanks again see you
  • 00:56:50
    later bye bye
Tags
  • språkopplæring
  • latin
  • gresk
  • antikken
  • motivasjon
  • memorering
  • undervisning
  • comprehensible input
  • grammatikk
  • språkferdigheter