Prof Jeffrey Sachs: New Economics for Sustainable Development

00:55:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMKc4qESn6Y

Résumé

TLDR在讨论过去250年的经济发展史时，讲者强调工业革命及其带来的巨大变化，尤其是化石燃料的利用如何促进了现代经济的繁荣。然而，这种经济增长伴随着环境危机和社会不平等的加剧。讲者呼吁重新审视经济学的方向，以可持续发展为核心，探索财富分配、公共投资及监管政策，以实现更公平、可持续的未来，强调人类福祉应成为经济学工作的重点。

A retenir

  • 🌍 工业革命使人类经济活动进入新阶段
  • ⚡ 化石燃料的利用极大推动了全球经济增长
  • 📉 经济增长与环境污染、资源枯竭密切相关
  • 🤝 需要重新审视经济学的伦理基础
  • 💰 财富分配和公共政策对可持续发展至关重要
  • 📈 科技进步应服务于人类福祉
  • 🌱 可持续发展的目标是社会包容和环境保护
  • 🔄 需要跨学科合作解决经济和环境问题
  • 🌐 全球合作是解决不平等和环境危机的关键
  • 🛠️ 新技术是经济发展的重要驱动力

Chronologie

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    介绍了一段关于过去250年经济发展的历史背景，强调工业革命及蒸汽机的出现对现代经济的重大影响。

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    讨论了技术进步如何改变了人口增长与经济增长之间的关系，指出人类在某一水平下通过教育和技术改变了生育率的趋势。

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    回顾了工业化初期主要发生在欧美地区，而从1950年开始，很多前殖民地国家逐渐实现独立并开始追赶经济发展，尤其是东亚国家展现出强劲增长。

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    指出随着经济活动的扩大，全球面临环境危机，历史上人类对自然的征服导致了对可持续性观点的缺乏关注。

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    说明了约一个世纪以来对气候变化的初步认识，强调了二氧化碳排放对气候的影响，引入联结生态和经济危机的视角。

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    提出人类活动对生态系统的损害及人口与经济增长对环境造成的压力的累积，对未来世代的影响。

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    历史发展导致了不平等的全球经济结构并推动环境危机的加剧，探讨了如何在应对这些危机的同时实现可持续发展。

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    讨论了数字经济如何加剧贫富差距以及科技变革如何给中国及其他国家带来脱贫的机会。

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    指出国际发展机构面临困境，强调了政治意愿在推动国际合作和政策变革中的重要性。

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    分析了经济学教育的缺乏和市场原则的主导地位，提出需要一种新的以人类福祉和伦理学为基础的经济学框架来更好地应对当今世界的挑战。

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:30

    讨论了未来的经济学应如何关注人类生活的好处，而不仅仅是追求财富，同时强调了环境可持续性和社会正义。

Afficher plus

Carte mentale

Vidéo Q&R

  • 工业革命的关键影响是什么？

    工业革命标志着从有机经济向现代工业经济的转变，使得经济活动的能源利用得到了极大提升。

  • 我们如何定义可持续发展？

    可持续发展意味着社会既要满足基本经济需求，又要保证环境的可持续性。

  • 现代经济学面临的主要挑战是什么？

    主要挑战包括经济不平等、环境危机，以及如何将可持续发展融入经济学的框架中。

  • 如何看待当前的经济不平等问题？

    经济不平等是历史、政治及其他多种因素相互作用的结果，解决这一问题需要全球合作与制度改革。

  • 经济学的伦理基础应该是什么？

    经济学应围绕人类的福祉展开，关注什么是真正好的生活，而不仅仅是财富最大化。

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Sous-titres
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    of our time and uh
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    i'll get us started with a a little bit
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    of a historical
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    romp of uh economic development over
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    the last 250 years
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    to give us a little bit of
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    historical context to the current
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    challenges and then
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    say some words about sustainable
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    development
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    and then what i think this means for
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    economics as a science and how we pursue
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    economics
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    as as a profession uh
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    it is right to think uh that
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    the industrial revolution of the
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    late 18th century was a a turning point
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    of human history
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    uh there are other hinge moments of
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    history
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    but the invention of the steam engine uh
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    by james watt
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    uh in glasgow uh in the
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    1770s changed the world
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    fundamentally it was the decisive
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    breakthrough out of
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    what the economic historian wrigley
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    and others have called the organic
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    economy
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    to the modern industrial economy up
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    until the steam engine
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    our societies were inherently limited uh
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    in the energy that could be mobilized
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    to basically animal power and human
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    power
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    and a little bit of wind for
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    sail or wind and water for
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    windmills and water mills but that was a
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    decisive limiting factor to production
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    of food to
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    the overall scale of economic activity
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    then came the harnessing of fossil fuels
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    with the newcomen steam engine first at
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    the
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    first years of the 18th century and then
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    james watts steam engine
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    in the 1770s and we've never
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    looked back basically that allowed for
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    such a dramatic mobilization
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    of primary energy for the purposes
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    of uh work
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    and economic activity that it
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    essentially enabled
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    the modern global economy
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    of course it wasn't the only decisive
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    invention but it was the one that
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    triggered
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    the period of endogenous economic growth
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    since that time we're expanding markets
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    led to
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    new innovations led to further expansion
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    of markets led to new innovations
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    in ongoing uh geometric growth
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    that has now lasted for more than two
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    centuries
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    of course this period is marked by
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    uh upheavals by very different
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    paces of performance in different
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    regions and different times
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    all that constitute the subject of
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    economic development to try to explain
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    those variations across space and across
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    time
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    and it's a fascinating subject i can say
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    having practiced it for the last 40
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    years
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    there's a lot to say and a lot to think
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    about
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    but for purposes right now i just want
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    to focus
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    on uh the unleashing of modern economic
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    growth
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    among many consequences of the
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    industrial
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    age based on fossil fuels was the
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    vast increase of the capacity to grow
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    food
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    and that itself came for many reasons
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    the ability to ship food the ability to
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    open up agricultural hinterlands
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    and uh in the uh 19th century the
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    ability to
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    mobilize uh forms of fertilizer
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    like iguano deposits off the coast of
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    latin america that greatly improved crop
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    productivity
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    nitrogen content in european agriculture
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    and in the 20th century with the haber
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    bosch process
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    for fixing nitrogen
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    active nitrogen enabling
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    synthetic nitrogen-based fertilizers
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    and all of that meant a phenomenal
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    expansion in the capacity
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    to grow food and to support a growing
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    human population
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    uh we all should always recall what
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    malthus
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    said in 1798 in the principles of
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    population
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    that basically humanity was
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    doomed to subsistence because
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    any technological advance
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    would be frittered away by a
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    commensurate expansion of the population
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    until living standards were driven back
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    down to
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    subsistence but in the event
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    the capacities of technological change
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    did lead to massive increases of
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    population
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    but the technological pace outpaced
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    the population growth and something that
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    malthus didn't envision
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    after a certain level of education
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    and incomes were reached and
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    developments of contraceptive
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    technologies
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    uh richer households and then
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    richer societies voluntarily reduce
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    fertility rates to
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    subsistence levels so the technological
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    change
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    showed up increasingly in per capita
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    income growth
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    rather than simply population growth
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    suffice it to say since watts steam
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    engine
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    uh in very rough terms
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    global output has increased say a
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    hundred times
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    and per capita output roughly 10 times
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    and per capita
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    and population roughly 10 times so where
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    there were
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    around 800 million people
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    in the late 18th century now we have 8
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    billion people
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    and per capita output on
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    average worldwide it's not
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    quite meaningful to say but it's roughly
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    meaningful to say has increased about 10
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    times
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    uh of course it's a different world so
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    our
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    index numbers are not really so good at
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    comparing
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    life in uh 1780
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    and life in 2020 but suffice it to say
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    huge huge increases of both
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    living standards and populations
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    okay that brings us to uh
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    our recent world there's a lot of
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    uh history that would take us
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    many courses to discuss but
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    the first phase of industrialization uh
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    from around 1770 to
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    1950 was largely uh
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    uh accomplished in
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    europe in the united states
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    uh and to an extent in japan uh
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    so there was a a very concentrated part
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    of the world that industrialized
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    most of the rest of the world was
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    colonized
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    or subjected to imperial
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    power by virtue of this vastly
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    increased military capacity of the
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    industrial nations which took over a lot
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    of the rest of the world
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    either de jouri or de facto from
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    1950 till today
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    most of the former colonies became
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    independent
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    and broadly speaking countries that had
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    lagged far behind the industrial
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    process began to catch up and narrow the
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    gaps
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    and the most decisive uh
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    illustrations of that have been the
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    countries of east asia
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    japan korea south korea
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    china and parts of the
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    asean region as well that have
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    experienced
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    rapid economic growth since the 1950s
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    and become
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    high income countries or what we call
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    upper
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    middle income countries okay
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    the result of all of this 250 years
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    is a highly unequal world but
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    now with the three major uh
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    centers of advanced economies
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    uh north america europe
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    and east asia and other parts of the
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    world
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    either so-called middle-income or
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    low-income
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    parts of the world and again a lot of
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    development economics
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    is really designed to explain why we
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    have this
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    divergence and i think it's a matter of
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    history politics uh military
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    story physical geography
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    and uh other uh types of explanations no
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    single factor
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    uh but uh multiple interacting factors
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    that i trace
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    to an extent in a recent book uh called
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    the ages of globalization that i
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    published this year now
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    uh we face a very unequal world
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    but we also face another fundamental
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    challenge
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    and that fundamental challenge is that
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    with an expansion of world
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    output 100 fold the pressures
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    on the physical earth from all this
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    economic activity
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    have also at this point reached
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    really a boil reached a massive set of
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    interconnected environmental crises
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    and uh this uh has
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    only been realized gradually during this
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    period
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    because starting with the industrial
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    revolution
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    especially under the influence of
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    protestant ideology
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    the idea was that humanity should
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    conquer nature
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    and conquer the world and there wasn't
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    really an
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    understanding of sustainability or
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    stewardship of the planet
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    or dangers to the planet from
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    human activity uh bible reading
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    protestants
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    in the uk the u.s and elsewhere assumed
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    that
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    god had created earth for human uh
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    domination
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    and it was pretty much as
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    straightforward as that
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    take the resources that one can and it
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    was thought that the resources are
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    basically infinite to a practical extent
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    and not vulnerable to
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    degradation or depletion
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    and there are a lot of uh people in my
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    country in the united states that still
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    believe
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    that idea especially biblical
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    fundamentalists because that's what they
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    read in a
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    in a book that was written 2 000 years
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    ago
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    and unfortunately they don't read a lot
  • 00:11:42
    of modern things
  • 00:11:44
    they believe in the literal word of the
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    bible there's still a lot of americans
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    like that and they get a very strange
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    view of
  • 00:11:52
    reality as a result of that a very
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    unreal view
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    of reality well it was discovered
  • 00:11:59
    already
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    about a hundred years after the
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    watt steam engine that
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    when you burn fossil fuel and release
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    carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
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    that changes the planet's climate
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    this began to be understood around the
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    1870s
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    when it was discovered that carbon
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    dioxide is a so-called greenhouse gas
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    that took a lot of the 19th century to
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    understand
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    and by 1896 a brilliant
  • 00:12:31
    chemist spontaneous the swedish nobel
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    laureate chemist understood that human
  • 00:12:39
    burning of coal would change the climate
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    and he actually made a paper and pencil
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    calculation
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    that by doubling the carbon dioxide
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    in the atmosphere humans would increase
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    the earth's temperature
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    he calculated by about three to five
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    degrees
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    celsius and now we think that the
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    climate sensitivity to a carbon doubling
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    is about three degrees
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    celsius so arrhenius was not far
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    off in paper and pencil calculations
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    made
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    uh 124 years ago a real
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    genius it's not just uh
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    fossil fuel it's not just uh climate
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    change of course
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    uh humans uh took over
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    more and more ecosystem functioning
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    in order to direct uh food production
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    towards human use
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    either a direct consumption of
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    plant materials or indirect consumption
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    of feeding
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    grains to animals and then a massive
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    increase of meat consumption which has a
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    great multiplier effect
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    on the planet given that
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    it takes 15
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    kilograms of feed grain more or less to
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    produce
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    one kilogram of of beef
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    for final consumption given the trophic
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    difference of growing uh of
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    growing a staple grain versus raising
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    a cow or cattle and so
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    huge uh huge requisition
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    of global ecosystems for
  • 00:14:26
    human consumption that's true on land
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    with massive deforestation and land
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    clearing for
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    pastures and for farmland and it's true
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    in the oceans
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    with the massive harvesting of
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    fish and other marine life for uh marine
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    based proteins and in both cases the
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    result is an
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    incredible depletion of species
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    and incredible destruction of
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    terrestrial and marine
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    ecosystems so this has gone on now
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    for two centuries plus and
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    uh a hundred fold increase of human
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    activity
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    and we're wrecking the planet and uh
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    it's been now
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    more or less 50 years that we've
  • 00:15:16
    realized this progressively
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    but the juggernaut of economic growth is
  • 00:15:21
    so powerful
  • 00:15:22
    that we've not gotten this juggernaut
  • 00:15:26
    of global economic growth under control
  • 00:15:31
    this is for many reasons one is that
  • 00:15:34
    each individual country
  • 00:15:36
    for its national security its pride
  • 00:15:39
    its public demands wants the good life
  • 00:15:42
    irrespective of the uh global external
  • 00:15:46
    consequences of that increased activity
  • 00:15:49
    so a lot of the
  • 00:15:51
    economic damage is an international
  • 00:15:54
    spillover or
  • 00:15:56
    externality apparently even when it's a
  • 00:15:58
    domestic externality
  • 00:16:00
    those who make money off of the
  • 00:16:02
    polluting activity
  • 00:16:04
    are politically more powerful than
  • 00:16:07
    those who lose from the damage even
  • 00:16:09
    though the social losses
  • 00:16:11
    could be much larger than the economic
  • 00:16:14
    gains
  • 00:16:14
    and partly it's an intergenerational uh
  • 00:16:18
    externality in that the current
  • 00:16:19
    generations
  • 00:16:21
    with the ethical and
  • 00:16:24
    practical short-sightedness are causing
  • 00:16:27
    great damage for
  • 00:16:28
    future generations so there are many
  • 00:16:31
    many
  • 00:16:31
    reasons why the damages that are being
  • 00:16:34
    caused are not
  • 00:16:36
    caught in our economic system
  • 00:16:40
    and our ethics as individuals
  • 00:16:44
    and as societies and that globally are
  • 00:16:47
    too weak right now
  • 00:16:49
    to even realize the vast damages
  • 00:16:52
    that are being caused we've been
  • 00:16:55
    facing this collision
  • 00:16:58
    of ecology and economy
  • 00:17:01
    for about 50 years now because it was in
  • 00:17:04
    1972
  • 00:17:05
    that the first conference on the human
  • 00:17:07
    environment
  • 00:17:08
    took place in stockholm it's been
  • 00:17:12
    almost 30 years since the second main
  • 00:17:14
    conference
  • 00:17:15
    in rio de janeiro in 1992
  • 00:17:19
    i adopted the u.n
  • 00:17:23
    framework convention on climate change
  • 00:17:25
    and the convention on biological
  • 00:17:27
    diversity
  • 00:17:28
    and the convention to combat
  • 00:17:30
    desertification
  • 00:17:31
    in dry lands and
  • 00:17:35
    all of these uh principles have become
  • 00:17:38
    more understood but the juggernaut
  • 00:17:41
    basically
  • 00:17:42
    continues and the result is
  • 00:17:46
    four massive environmental crises
  • 00:17:49
    all interconnected climate change
  • 00:17:53
    uh collapse of biodiversity
  • 00:17:56
    massive chemical pollutants and
  • 00:17:59
    increasing frequency of zoonotic
  • 00:18:02
    diseases like copin 19 or sars
  • 00:18:05
    or mirs or nipa virus or h1n1
  • 00:18:10
    in other words destabilizing natural
  • 00:18:13
    ecosystems transfers pathogens or
  • 00:18:16
    recombines pathogens
  • 00:18:18
    in ways that pose profound threats to
  • 00:18:22
    humans and other species so we've got a
  • 00:18:25
    colossal
  • 00:18:26
    environmental crisis at hand
  • 00:18:30
    and we have a massive
  • 00:18:33
    crisis of inequality as well
  • 00:18:39
    economic growth is continuing at a
  • 00:18:43
    good clip even taking into account
  • 00:18:46
    this year's uh coven 19
  • 00:18:50
    disaster uh and the rate of
  • 00:18:52
    technological change is certainly not
  • 00:18:55
    slowing
  • 00:18:56
    the digital revolution is probably
  • 00:18:59
    accelerating overall economic change
  • 00:19:03
    and continuing these
  • 00:19:06
    forces of growing inequality and
  • 00:19:09
    environmental destruction and so i think
  • 00:19:12
    there's nothing in the economic system
  • 00:19:15
    which really protects us from the
  • 00:19:17
    downsides of this
  • 00:19:19
    technological machine which operates at
  • 00:19:22
    a
  • 00:19:23
    global scale and as countries distrust
  • 00:19:26
    each other
  • 00:19:28
    they battle for economic progress
  • 00:19:31
    partly because it's directly linked to
  • 00:19:34
    military capacity
  • 00:19:35
    and to what they perceive as national
  • 00:19:37
    security
  • 00:19:38
    uh irrespective of other damage
  • 00:19:42
    that's being done and we have an
  • 00:19:45
    ideology
  • 00:19:47
    that really has been led by the united
  • 00:19:50
    states a neo-liberal
  • 00:19:51
    ideology which says that what the
  • 00:19:54
    markets say
  • 00:19:55
    anyway is what we should do
  • 00:19:58
    because the markets are a reflection of
  • 00:20:00
    freedom
  • 00:20:01
    and if that freedom leads to mass
  • 00:20:04
    inequality
  • 00:20:05
    or to massive environmental destruction
  • 00:20:09
    according to this philosophy so be it
  • 00:20:12
    and since the united states has been so
  • 00:20:14
    powerful in the world
  • 00:20:16
    for the last 70 years that neoliberal
  • 00:20:19
    philosophy
  • 00:20:20
    has permeated
  • 00:20:24
    our textbooks our courses our thinking
  • 00:20:27
    our understanding of economics
  • 00:20:30
    our implicit ethics
  • 00:20:34
    our explicit ethics uh our global
  • 00:20:37
    negotiations and so on
  • 00:20:39
    uh and so uh this has been uh
  • 00:20:43
    a continuing uh crisis
  • 00:20:47
    digital revolution that we're now living
  • 00:20:50
    through
  • 00:20:50
    accelerated by covind probably
  • 00:20:54
    is uh greatly worsening
  • 00:20:57
    uh the inequalities uh
  • 00:21:00
    my guess is that 2020 is the biggest
  • 00:21:04
    transfer of wealth from the poor to the
  • 00:21:06
    rich uh
  • 00:21:07
    in a single year in peacetime history
  • 00:21:10
    uh maybe ever uh because the digital
  • 00:21:13
    world has boomed
  • 00:21:15
    this year whereas the physical economy
  • 00:21:18
    has collapsed in many places so we're
  • 00:21:22
    seeing
  • 00:21:22
    not just a
  • 00:21:26
    an economic collapse from covid we're
  • 00:21:28
    seeing a boom also from covid
  • 00:21:32
    in digital economies
  • 00:21:35
    so today
  • 00:21:38
    i happened to look it up this morning
  • 00:21:43
    five companies uh microsoft
  • 00:21:46
    amazon google facebook and i live
  • 00:21:49
    alibaba
  • 00:21:51
    uh together have a combined uh market
  • 00:21:53
    cap
  • 00:21:54
    of 5.9 trillion dollars five companies
  • 00:21:58
    this is you know the idea of a trillion
  • 00:22:00
    dollar company in the past
  • 00:22:02
    was uh mind-boggling uh
  • 00:22:06
    now this is becoming uh kind of routine
  • 00:22:09
    uh but these uh digital companies have
  • 00:22:12
    had a boom
  • 00:22:13
    of wealth their owners
  • 00:22:17
    have had wealth increases this year that
  • 00:22:19
    we can hardly imagine
  • 00:22:21
    for americans
  • 00:22:25
    uh bezos gates zuckerberg
  • 00:22:29
    and musk uh now have a net worth
  • 00:22:32
    of 540 billion dollars for
  • 00:22:36
    people uh and uh their wealth has gone
  • 00:22:39
    up
  • 00:22:40
    uh i a hundred
  • 00:22:43
    billion plus i don't remember the number
  • 00:22:45
    exactly i
  • 00:22:46
    uh actually uh
  • 00:22:49
    i can find it uh
  • 00:22:53
    their wealth has gone up by 200 billion
  • 00:22:55
    dollars
  • 00:22:56
    uh this year alone just four people
  • 00:22:59
    uh so this is a very weird world
  • 00:23:03
    uh where uh the wealth overall
  • 00:23:07
    is soaring and rising to the very top
  • 00:23:11
    the inequalities are rising right now
  • 00:23:14
    the environmental destruction
  • 00:23:16
    is uh soaring and the question is can we
  • 00:23:19
    get
  • 00:23:20
    a grip on this uh and what is the role
  • 00:23:23
    of uh
  • 00:23:24
    economists uh in in all of this uh
  • 00:23:28
    challenge so my view is that uh
  • 00:23:32
    the framework that we need is
  • 00:23:36
    a different framework that starts with
  • 00:23:38
    sustainable development
  • 00:23:40
    as the basic organizing principles
  • 00:23:43
    sustainable development means
  • 00:23:45
    that we by objective want societies that
  • 00:23:49
    are
  • 00:23:50
    socially inclusive and environmentally
  • 00:23:53
    sustainable
  • 00:23:54
    socially inclusive means that everybody
  • 00:23:56
    can meet their basic economic needs
  • 00:23:59
    environmentally sustainable means that
  • 00:24:02
    the climate and other earth systems are
  • 00:24:06
    operating on a sustainable trajectory
  • 00:24:09
    without the collapse of biodiversity
  • 00:24:12
    without mega pollution uh and without
  • 00:24:15
    human-induced climate change or
  • 00:24:17
    more precisely with human induced
  • 00:24:19
    climate change stabilized
  • 00:24:21
    by mid-century at less than 1.5 degrees
  • 00:24:24
    celsius warming
  • 00:24:25
    and then with temperatures tending to
  • 00:24:27
    reduce
  • 00:24:28
    gradually back to towards pre-industrial
  • 00:24:32
    levels
  • 00:24:33
    in the second half of the 21st century
  • 00:24:36
    so i regard that as our practical
  • 00:24:39
    direction that we have to take
  • 00:24:41
    i think the job of economics is to help
  • 00:24:44
    assess
  • 00:24:45
    how to achieve this what kinds of
  • 00:24:49
    mechanisms of
  • 00:24:50
    public investment redistribution uh
  • 00:24:54
    regulatory framework and so forth
  • 00:24:58
    can most effectively create fair
  • 00:25:01
    and sustainable societies and
  • 00:25:05
    uh how can we forge
  • 00:25:08
    a market combined with non-market
  • 00:25:13
    institutions
  • 00:25:14
    that can actually bring about the kind
  • 00:25:16
    of transformation
  • 00:25:18
    that we should want i'll just
  • 00:25:22
    end by saying a word about what we
  • 00:25:24
    should want
  • 00:25:26
    what we should want is human well-being
  • 00:25:29
    uh and uh economics should start by
  • 00:25:32
    asking the question
  • 00:25:33
    what is good for human beings uh and uh
  • 00:25:37
    that is not a utility function that's a
  • 00:25:39
    silly idea
  • 00:25:42
    what is good for human beings goes much
  • 00:25:46
    more deeply than you of c
  • 00:25:49
    and we should ask seriously the question
  • 00:25:52
    of
  • 00:25:52
    what is good for human beings that's
  • 00:25:55
    what ethics
  • 00:25:56
    uh is addressed to and
  • 00:25:59
    uh what ethics has taught us
  • 00:26:03
    over 2000 years both the
  • 00:26:06
    in asian ethics such as confucianism and
  • 00:26:11
    western ethics such as aristotelianism
  • 00:26:14
    or christian thought is
  • 00:26:18
    that we want for good lives
  • 00:26:22
    to be able to meet basic needs uh but
  • 00:26:25
    then
  • 00:26:26
    also to live with moderation
  • 00:26:29
    uh and to live with sociality uh and to
  • 00:26:32
    live with social justice
  • 00:26:34
    uh and those are quite different from
  • 00:26:37
    maximizing utility so we really need to
  • 00:26:41
    rethink in my view our economic
  • 00:26:45
    principles we got stuck on utility
  • 00:26:48
    theory
  • 00:26:50
    which is a very naive idea about human
  • 00:26:53
    well-being
  • 00:26:55
    because maybe seeking wealth or
  • 00:26:59
    maximizing preferences so-called
  • 00:27:02
    made sense when one was talking about
  • 00:27:04
    escaping from poverty
  • 00:27:06
    but it makes little sense in a world
  • 00:27:08
    that is already wealthy
  • 00:27:11
    but is uh destroying itself
  • 00:27:14
    and our goals for a good life
  • 00:27:17
    on the planet now can be more
  • 00:27:19
    sophisticated
  • 00:27:21
    than maximizing consumption goods so
  • 00:27:24
    we should think about what humans really
  • 00:27:27
    want
  • 00:27:27
    and need for healthy
  • 00:27:30
    and decent lives and rebase economics on
  • 00:27:34
    a new kind of ethical
  • 00:27:36
    foundation uh i'm writing about that
  • 00:27:39
    myself now
  • 00:27:40
    uh it's quite interesting to go back to
  • 00:27:43
    uh
  • 00:27:45
    aristotelian thought or confusion
  • 00:27:47
    thought or to
  • 00:27:48
    other ethical precepts and rethink
  • 00:27:52
    economic principles in that regard
  • 00:27:55
    because
  • 00:27:56
    it leads to very different kinds of
  • 00:27:59
    conclusions from uh what we have been
  • 00:28:03
    led to uh in the pursuit of wealth
  • 00:28:06
    as the centerpiece of uh of our
  • 00:28:09
    economics and i think we've reached the
  • 00:28:11
    point where
  • 00:28:12
    if we just blindly pursue wealth we will
  • 00:28:16
    end up destroying most of what we really
  • 00:28:19
    value
  • 00:28:20
    so let me stop there very brief
  • 00:28:24
    but should help us get started in
  • 00:28:26
    discussion
  • 00:28:29
    yeah thank you so much professor sex
  • 00:28:31
    that was a really neat summary of the
  • 00:28:33
    last 300 years and especially
  • 00:28:35
    the bit about utility function i i
  • 00:28:38
    really appreciate the discussion so
  • 00:28:41
    while uh has the questions are flooding
  • 00:28:45
    in
  • 00:28:46
    uh i would like to start off with a
  • 00:28:47
    question of mine and
  • 00:28:49
    um you know i i i really enjoyed reading
  • 00:28:52
    uh your book
  • 00:28:53
    the end of poverty and that kind of
  • 00:28:54
    triggered my interest for developmental
  • 00:28:56
    economics
  • 00:28:57
    so um how do you think that the field of
  • 00:29:00
    developmental economics have
  • 00:29:02
    changed in the last 10 years especially
  • 00:29:05
    with
  • 00:29:05
    the introduction of the sdgs in 2015
  • 00:29:09
    as well as covet and whether the
  • 00:29:12
    economic tools
  • 00:29:13
    that we have and are being taught to
  • 00:29:16
    economic students like
  • 00:29:18
    like us do you think they are sufficient
  • 00:29:21
    moving us forward i think
  • 00:29:24
    in in the practice of development
  • 00:29:28
    we can learn a lot starting with china
  • 00:29:33
    china was a country where
  • 00:29:36
    poverty rates were depending on how you
  • 00:29:39
    measure it 60 to 80 percent
  • 00:29:42
    of the population poor in 1970
  • 00:29:46
    uh and now uh this year basically
  • 00:29:49
    no person uh in extreme poverty in china
  • 00:29:53
    are almost
  • 00:29:54
    none so this is a demonstration
  • 00:29:58
    that development or end of poverty
  • 00:30:02
    is utterly feasible and
  • 00:30:05
    china created a fantastic system
  • 00:30:10
    for overcoming extreme poverty
  • 00:30:13
    by massive investments in
  • 00:30:17
    education in health and in
  • 00:30:21
    physical infrastructure uh and
  • 00:30:25
    then in integrating uh china
  • 00:30:28
    into the world economy so that china
  • 00:30:31
    became
  • 00:30:31
    basically the manufacturing center of
  • 00:30:35
    the world economy
  • 00:30:36
    and now increasingly into higher
  • 00:30:39
    technology
  • 00:30:41
    especially digital economy where china
  • 00:30:43
    is becoming a major leader in artificial
  • 00:30:46
    intelligence 5g
  • 00:30:48
    and other systems so i would start by
  • 00:30:51
    saying that we've learned
  • 00:30:53
    not only china but china and the
  • 00:30:56
    neighbors
  • 00:30:57
    uh have succeeded in ending poverty
  • 00:31:00
    and we should study those lessons how
  • 00:31:03
    that happened
  • 00:31:04
    in such a short period of time what kind
  • 00:31:07
    of
  • 00:31:07
    mix of public and private institutions
  • 00:31:11
    best facilitated that and i think what
  • 00:31:14
    we see is a
  • 00:31:15
    range of investments in
  • 00:31:18
    human capital infrastructure capital
  • 00:31:21
    business capital
  • 00:31:23
    and a range of private and public uh
  • 00:31:26
    organizational forms that combined in a
  • 00:31:30
    very sophisticated way to bring about
  • 00:31:33
    this progress
  • 00:31:35
    not everything is perfect about this
  • 00:31:37
    because china became
  • 00:31:38
    a lot more polluted and suffered
  • 00:31:42
    a lot of environmental harms and china
  • 00:31:45
    became the number one
  • 00:31:46
    greenhouse emitting country of the world
  • 00:31:49
    during this process so
  • 00:31:51
    uh that kind of dirty development now
  • 00:31:54
    needs to be
  • 00:31:54
    transformed into clean technologies
  • 00:31:57
    and uh this becomes the challenge i
  • 00:32:00
    would say of
  • 00:32:01
    the next 20 to 30 years in china
  • 00:32:05
    but the first point is uh development is
  • 00:32:08
    possible
  • 00:32:09
    at a very rapid rate and it's mainly
  • 00:32:12
    through skills and technology and
  • 00:32:14
    infrastructure
  • 00:32:16
    second we see that the digital
  • 00:32:21
    technologies are probably the main
  • 00:32:23
    drivers right now
  • 00:32:25
    of economic change and the main
  • 00:32:27
    possibilities for
  • 00:32:29
    leapfrogging in certain areas of the
  • 00:32:32
    economy
  • 00:32:32
    but there are also troubles with the
  • 00:32:34
    digital economy as well
  • 00:32:36
    on the positive side the digital world
  • 00:32:39
    enables
  • 00:32:41
    big breakthroughs in electronic payments
  • 00:32:45
    where we've seen countries that had no
  • 00:32:47
    banks essentially
  • 00:32:48
    go to almost universal online banking
  • 00:32:52
    we have seen a big
  • 00:32:55
    advances in telemedicine uh in
  • 00:32:59
    uh of course distance education
  • 00:33:02
    uh like we're living in this year
  • 00:33:06
    in e-governance uh in governments
  • 00:33:09
    for example making direct transfers to
  • 00:33:12
    households through electronic accounts
  • 00:33:15
    uh or regularizing taxation
  • 00:33:18
    uh in this way so i would say that the
  • 00:33:22
    digital technologies are a huge
  • 00:33:26
    area for advancement in
  • 00:33:29
    development and in ending poverty the
  • 00:33:32
    downside
  • 00:33:33
    is that a lot of traditional development
  • 00:33:35
    was labor intensive manufacturing
  • 00:33:38
    so when china got started or japan
  • 00:33:40
    before china
  • 00:33:43
    the work started in textiles apparel
  • 00:33:46
    electronics assembly shoemake issue
  • 00:33:49
    manufacturing and so forth
  • 00:33:51
    most of those jobs are now mechanized
  • 00:33:54
    and so
  • 00:33:55
    countries that are still poor today
  • 00:33:57
    can't really follow
  • 00:33:59
    the same path of labor-intensive
  • 00:34:02
    manufacturing they need different paths
  • 00:34:05
    of income generation and exports
  • 00:34:08
    in africa i would like
  • 00:34:12
    young africans trained in the digital
  • 00:34:15
    economy to be working
  • 00:34:17
    not in labor-intensive manufactures but
  • 00:34:20
    in the digital
  • 00:34:21
    global economy perhaps
  • 00:34:25
    working in selling
  • 00:34:29
    digital services internationally as a
  • 00:34:31
    new kind of export
  • 00:34:33
    of course we have back office
  • 00:34:36
    operations done digitally call centers
  • 00:34:40
    and so on but there's a huge scope for
  • 00:34:43
    globalizing the digital economy and
  • 00:34:45
    creating a lot of jobs in the developing
  • 00:34:48
    world as as a result of this so
  • 00:34:51
    i think the whole question of digital
  • 00:34:53
    and development is a second big issue
  • 00:34:55
    a third big issue is for me
  • 00:34:59
    it's it's always been the question of
  • 00:35:02
    how we create a global financial
  • 00:35:05
    structure
  • 00:35:06
    and political structure to enable
  • 00:35:10
    places that are desperately behind in
  • 00:35:12
    development
  • 00:35:14
    to make breakthroughs this was the point
  • 00:35:16
    of the end of poverty that helping
  • 00:35:19
    the very poorest places get on the
  • 00:35:21
    ladder of development
  • 00:35:23
    is a massive challenge and
  • 00:35:26
    everything that i've seen since i wrote
  • 00:35:29
    that book in 2005
  • 00:35:31
    it confirms for me the the usefulness
  • 00:35:35
    of international resource transfers of
  • 00:35:38
    one form or another
  • 00:35:40
    to facilitate the takeoff of economic
  • 00:35:42
    growth especially in
  • 00:35:44
    very hard hit regions so we still need
  • 00:35:48
    global governance
  • 00:35:50
    in some ways to help bring this kind of
  • 00:35:53
    change
  • 00:35:54
    about but these i would say are
  • 00:35:57
    some of the lessons you can have rapid
  • 00:35:59
    development
  • 00:36:00
    now it has to be green rapid development
  • 00:36:03
    now it has to be digital rapid
  • 00:36:05
    development
  • 00:36:06
    and it has to take place still in a
  • 00:36:09
    global context
  • 00:36:12
    yeah thank you so much you mentioned a
  • 00:36:15
    point about political world
  • 00:36:17
    so there's uh two really beautiful
  • 00:36:19
    questions uh by the audience
  • 00:36:21
    so i'm very interested in to understand
  • 00:36:23
    how do you think
  • 00:36:25
    international development agencies need
  • 00:36:27
    to change
  • 00:36:28
    in current times and also how do you
  • 00:36:31
    incent
  • 00:36:32
    provide political will to political
  • 00:36:35
    leaders within
  • 00:36:36
    developing and develop developed
  • 00:36:38
    countries to
  • 00:36:40
    to motivate them in in terms of
  • 00:36:43
    international institutions say the imf
  • 00:36:46
    or the world bank or others
  • 00:36:48
    uh the starting point of course is to
  • 00:36:50
    understand that those are
  • 00:36:51
    governed by their member states
  • 00:36:55
    and principally by a few major states
  • 00:36:59
    they were created in the case of the imf
  • 00:37:02
    and the world bank at the bretton woods
  • 00:37:04
    conference in 1944
  • 00:37:06
    and they were created as u.s led
  • 00:37:10
    institutions the u.s after world war ii
  • 00:37:13
    was
  • 00:37:14
    completely dominant politically
  • 00:37:16
    financially
  • 00:37:18
    technologically militarily and it
  • 00:37:21
    created the post-war order to a large
  • 00:37:23
    extent
  • 00:37:24
    um in washington dc
  • 00:37:28
    the white house is on 16th and
  • 00:37:31
    pennsylvania avenue
  • 00:37:33
    and the world bank is at 18th in
  • 00:37:36
    pennsylvania avenue
  • 00:37:37
    and the imf is at 19th and pennsylvania
  • 00:37:40
    avenue
  • 00:37:41
    so and the treasury is at 15th in
  • 00:37:43
    pennsylvania avenue
  • 00:37:45
    and the executive office of the
  • 00:37:46
    president is at 17th and pennsylvania
  • 00:37:48
    avenue
  • 00:37:49
    so if you think about that stretch of
  • 00:37:52
    five blocks
  • 00:37:53
    treasury white house presidential
  • 00:37:56
    offices
  • 00:37:57
    world bank imf it could not be more
  • 00:38:00
    vivid
  • 00:38:01
    the power system of 1945
  • 00:38:05
    but the world has changed a lot now the
  • 00:38:08
    us
  • 00:38:08
    is not so powerful china is
  • 00:38:11
    a lot more powerful other countries are
  • 00:38:16
    relatively more powerful and we're in
  • 00:38:19
    uh a very difficult period
  • 00:38:23
    of geopolitical shift this is a lot of
  • 00:38:26
    our problems right now
  • 00:38:28
    it's driving the u.s crazy you can see
  • 00:38:31
    uh
  • 00:38:32
    you know the us doesn't know what to do
  • 00:38:35
    about china's
  • 00:38:36
    power success uh economic
  • 00:38:40
    growth my view is we should applaud it
  • 00:38:43
    it's a great thing for the world great
  • 00:38:45
    for china great for the world as far as
  • 00:38:47
    i'm concerned
  • 00:38:48
    but for the u.s it's a for some
  • 00:38:51
    uh u.s nationalists it's horrible
  • 00:38:55
    how dare china become so powerful
  • 00:38:59
    this is supposed to be a us-led world so
  • 00:39:02
    there's a lot of
  • 00:39:03
    geopolitical tension well trump
  • 00:39:07
    was the stupidest and the worst
  • 00:39:10
    president we ever had as far as i'm
  • 00:39:12
    concerned
  • 00:39:13
    but he was also an extreme nationalist
  • 00:39:16
    and so for him
  • 00:39:18
    any gain of china was a loss for the
  • 00:39:20
    united states that's a simple-minded
  • 00:39:22
    nationalism
  • 00:39:24
    this created crisis because
  • 00:39:28
    the u.s under trump tried to stop
  • 00:39:30
    china's
  • 00:39:31
    advance and it basically paralyzed a lot
  • 00:39:34
    of these international institutions also
  • 00:39:36
    which
  • 00:39:37
    can only function if the major countries
  • 00:39:39
    within them
  • 00:39:40
    are cooperating and helping them to
  • 00:39:44
    fulfill their mandates they don't really
  • 00:39:47
    design their own actions at a
  • 00:39:49
    fundamental level though there's some
  • 00:39:51
    of course techno technical design
  • 00:39:54
    they're
  • 00:39:54
    very heavily influenced by geopolitics
  • 00:39:58
    uh and this i think is a major point
  • 00:40:01
    of course i'm interested in the
  • 00:40:03
    geopolitics of cooperation
  • 00:40:06
    because i see all the gains of
  • 00:40:08
    cooperation and i would like us to take
  • 00:40:12
    the ethical point of view of what adam
  • 00:40:15
    smith called the impartial spectator
  • 00:40:18
    that is not the point of view of any
  • 00:40:20
    individual country
  • 00:40:22
    but the point of view of an independent
  • 00:40:24
    observer who says how should the world
  • 00:40:27
    system work not how should any
  • 00:40:29
    individual country
  • 00:40:31
    work so i don't really like the
  • 00:40:33
    nationalism at all
  • 00:40:35
    i think it's a detrimental naive
  • 00:40:39
    close-minded self-destructive
  • 00:40:42
    it's the prisoner's dilemma where you
  • 00:40:44
    don't cooperate
  • 00:40:45
    what we need is the prisoner's dilemma
  • 00:40:47
    where you do cooperate
  • 00:40:49
    and the countries work together for the
  • 00:40:52
    mutual
  • 00:40:52
    gain so this is on the international
  • 00:40:55
    institutions we need them
  • 00:40:57
    they're critical uh the imf
  • 00:41:00
    has played a huge positive role in
  • 00:41:03
    the copen 19 pandemic it's uh
  • 00:41:07
    basically lent about a hundred billion
  • 00:41:09
    dollars of emergency financing
  • 00:41:12
    to 80 developing countries but i would
  • 00:41:15
    say
  • 00:41:16
    it's not close to enough uh
  • 00:41:19
    and the limits on the imf have come from
  • 00:41:23
    the united states this year
  • 00:41:25
    because the imf technical staff said
  • 00:41:28
    that there should be a new allocation of
  • 00:41:30
    special drawing rights
  • 00:41:32
    which is essentially new uh
  • 00:41:36
    money in a way high-powered money uh
  • 00:41:39
    because the sdr
  • 00:41:40
    is a is an envelope of
  • 00:41:44
    a a few major uh convertible currencies
  • 00:41:48
    including the renminbi the dollar
  • 00:41:51
    and the euro uh there should be a new
  • 00:41:53
    allocation of sdrs
  • 00:41:56
    to give liquidity to the poorest
  • 00:41:57
    countries but the united states has
  • 00:41:59
    vetoed that so far
  • 00:42:01
    so this is where technical
  • 00:42:03
    considerations in geopolitics
  • 00:42:06
    tend to conflict with each other
  • 00:42:10
    i'm hoping that under president biden
  • 00:42:14
    will have more global cooperation and
  • 00:42:17
    i think that if the u.s europe
  • 00:42:20
    china japan korea
  • 00:42:24
    could cooperate with each other
  • 00:42:27
    we could solve a lot of the current
  • 00:42:29
    crises
  • 00:42:31
    in fact it's interesting last weekend uh
  • 00:42:34
    15 countries signed an important trade
  • 00:42:37
    agreement
  • 00:42:38
    uh in what's called the regional
  • 00:42:40
    comprehensive economic partnership
  • 00:42:42
    rcep this is an agreement that brings
  • 00:42:46
    together
  • 00:42:46
    china japan korea australia
  • 00:42:50
    new zealand and the 10 asean countries
  • 00:42:53
    i really like that group of countries
  • 00:42:57
    because it's a geopolitically very
  • 00:42:59
    interesting
  • 00:43:00
    culturally diverse but all with a shared
  • 00:43:04
    asia-pacific set of interests
  • 00:43:07
    and a lot of trade amongst themselves
  • 00:43:11
    and uh when you think about it it's 2.2
  • 00:43:14
    billion people
  • 00:43:15
    in our sep it's a 25 trillion dollar
  • 00:43:19
    gdp roughly about 25 of the world
  • 00:43:23
    economy
  • 00:43:24
    and interestingly almost every country
  • 00:43:27
    in
  • 00:43:27
    our sep has succeeded in suppressing
  • 00:43:30
    covet 19
  • 00:43:31
    and so it's a region that has done quite
  • 00:43:34
    well
  • 00:43:34
    in controlling the pandemic as opposed
  • 00:43:37
    to europe and the united states
  • 00:43:39
    and so maybe our sub could become a new
  • 00:43:42
    organizing principle for the asia
  • 00:43:44
    pacific and then we'd have
  • 00:43:46
    arsep european union
  • 00:43:49
    north america as three major
  • 00:43:53
    growth centers cooperating with each
  • 00:43:56
    other
  • 00:43:57
    in a sensible way of course i don't want
  • 00:43:59
    to leave out
  • 00:44:00
    other parts of the world the the african
  • 00:44:02
    union
  • 00:44:03
    latin america and so forth but i think
  • 00:44:06
    this kind of regional
  • 00:44:08
    uh cooperation can play a very big role
  • 00:44:13
    yeah thank you so much so well uh thank
  • 00:44:16
    you so much for the overview on how
  • 00:44:18
    on how international development
  • 00:44:20
    agencies have
  • 00:44:22
    been relatively stuck in historical
  • 00:44:24
    reasons and political reasons
  • 00:44:26
    so now we have a question more towards
  • 00:44:28
    the the field of economics
  • 00:44:30
    so uh nick and uh kev asked
  • 00:44:34
    uh you know what has uh why has
  • 00:44:37
    economics been stuck
  • 00:44:38
    in in its form today and what are some
  • 00:44:42
    of the questions that economic students
  • 00:44:44
    can
  • 00:44:44
    can do to contribute to to this film and
  • 00:44:47
    to
  • 00:44:47
    make the world better
  • 00:44:51
    i think it's it's really a good question
  • 00:44:54
    uh i think
  • 00:44:58
    our field has uh
  • 00:45:01
    some very interesting strengths
  • 00:45:04
    but a lot of weaknesses also
  • 00:45:08
    the strengths are a
  • 00:45:12
    a concept of general
  • 00:45:15
    systems equilibrium i think is extremely
  • 00:45:18
    important
  • 00:45:19
    we have a natural training and capacity
  • 00:45:23
    to
  • 00:45:24
    view the material
  • 00:45:27
    life of a society in a systems way
  • 00:45:31
    what is the resource base what is the
  • 00:45:33
    technology
  • 00:45:34
    and what are modes of interaction within
  • 00:45:38
    that
  • 00:45:38
    and we have a concept of equilibrium
  • 00:45:41
    and all of this is i think very helpful
  • 00:45:46
    but it's also a very weak field
  • 00:45:49
    in a number of other ways uh first it's
  • 00:45:52
    uh our training is mostly uh
  • 00:45:56
    conceptual rather than empirical uh and
  • 00:45:59
    so uh
  • 00:46:00
    students are not given uh much of an
  • 00:46:03
    education in how economies actually
  • 00:46:06
    function
  • 00:46:07
    what their institutions are what the
  • 00:46:10
    what the empirical
  • 00:46:11
    realities are it would be
  • 00:46:14
    as if a medical student instead of
  • 00:46:16
    learning the organ systems and the parts
  • 00:46:18
    of the body were assumed
  • 00:46:20
    assume a body it has n bones
  • 00:46:23
    m kinds of proteins uh j kinds of uh
  • 00:46:27
    nutrients you know just never looking at
  • 00:46:29
    a human body just trying to make a
  • 00:46:31
    general
  • 00:46:32
    generalization it would be a very silly
  • 00:46:35
    way to teach
  • 00:46:36
    medical science because in the end
  • 00:46:38
    you're trying to
  • 00:46:39
    work with real human beings on their
  • 00:46:41
    real problems
  • 00:46:42
    but our training does not work that way
  • 00:46:46
    it the way we train
  • 00:46:49
    after you're trained then you have to
  • 00:46:52
    spend a long time
  • 00:46:53
    working on real problems to actually get
  • 00:46:56
    the quantitative and empirical sense
  • 00:46:58
    of how things work one of the huge
  • 00:47:01
    shortcomings is that
  • 00:47:03
    for us the market is the organizing
  • 00:47:06
    principle
  • 00:47:07
    but in the real world that's not true at
  • 00:47:09
    all
  • 00:47:10
    the market is one kind of exchange
  • 00:47:13
    institution
  • 00:47:14
    but there are multiple others starting
  • 00:47:16
    with the government which
  • 00:47:17
    uh in a normal european country collects
  • 00:47:21
    more than
  • 00:47:21
    40 percent of national income in taxes
  • 00:47:25
    and distributes more than 40 percent of
  • 00:47:28
    national income
  • 00:47:30
    that's not a small side effect that is
  • 00:47:33
    central uh and uh the rest of the
  • 00:47:36
    economy the uh
  • 00:47:39
    the so-called market part also is
  • 00:47:41
    divided between
  • 00:47:42
    for-profit and not-for-profit or
  • 00:47:45
    third-way
  • 00:47:46
    uh sectors and we don't study
  • 00:47:50
    this kind of economics properly
  • 00:47:53
    of course the point was made by carl
  • 00:47:55
    poyani
  • 00:47:58
    75 years ago in the great transformation
  • 00:48:01
    that real economics is about
  • 00:48:05
    multiple kinds of institutions not
  • 00:48:08
    mainly markets
  • 00:48:09
    but when we train in economics markets
  • 00:48:12
    are
  • 00:48:13
    the center of everything everything else
  • 00:48:16
    is a kind of exception
  • 00:48:17
    uh and the first thing we try to do is
  • 00:48:19
    find a market
  • 00:48:20
    solution ah stop this is not right
  • 00:48:24
    markets are helpful for certain things
  • 00:48:27
    they're not helpful for other things
  • 00:48:28
    governments are really helpful for
  • 00:48:30
    certain things
  • 00:48:31
    uh we have collective action for good
  • 00:48:34
    public goods reasons and not as minor
  • 00:48:36
    exceptions but as fundamental
  • 00:48:38
    that's one uh major problem
  • 00:48:42
    so one part problem is empirical
  • 00:48:46
    uh the historical and the quantitative
  • 00:48:50
    and the qualitative sense second is
  • 00:48:54
    uh it is uh the
  • 00:48:57
    excessive focus on markets uh as
  • 00:49:00
    drivers of resource
  • 00:49:03
    utilization and deployment and and that
  • 00:49:06
    is
  • 00:49:07
    not right third given how crucial
  • 00:49:12
    technologies are to how we live
  • 00:49:15
    and organize activity we should be
  • 00:49:18
    spending a lot more time
  • 00:49:20
    on not the theory of pure technological
  • 00:49:23
    change but on
  • 00:49:24
    the reality of digital technologies for
  • 00:49:28
    how that affects uh for example every
  • 00:49:31
    sector of the economy right now i
  • 00:49:33
    mentioned them
  • 00:49:34
    uh there isn't a sector of our lives not
  • 00:49:36
    deeply transformed by digitization now
  • 00:49:39
    uh governance finance payments
  • 00:49:43
    medicine health services
  • 00:49:46
    commerce mobility you name it
  • 00:49:49
    manufacturing agriculture mining
  • 00:49:53
    so there are too few studies
  • 00:49:58
    uh asking how will technological change
  • 00:50:01
    of a real kind that we're experiencing
  • 00:50:03
    transform
  • 00:50:04
    lives it's a central question
  • 00:50:08
    but maybe because we're waiting for 25
  • 00:50:11
    years more
  • 00:50:12
    data to run some regressions we're not
  • 00:50:14
    looking ahead
  • 00:50:15
    adequately with the tools that we have
  • 00:50:17
    to try to understand
  • 00:50:19
    better what all of this will mean and we
  • 00:50:22
    should be
  • 00:50:23
    trying to work together with engineers
  • 00:50:26
    uh and with the uh with the
  • 00:50:30
    uh i'd say engineers would be a good
  • 00:50:32
    place to start
  • 00:50:33
    uh engineers public health specialists
  • 00:50:35
    which is kind of engineering
  • 00:50:37
    of population health and economic
  • 00:50:40
    concepts to try to bring
  • 00:50:42
    these pieces together then i've already
  • 00:50:45
    mentioned
  • 00:50:46
    we don't have an adequate theory of the
  • 00:50:50
    good
  • 00:50:51
    economics should be in
  • 00:50:54
    inherently an ethical science
  • 00:50:57
    meaning ethics is the science of a good
  • 00:51:01
    life
  • 00:51:03
    we're interested in economics because we
  • 00:51:05
    think it can contribute to a good life
  • 00:51:08
    but what is a good life well i
  • 00:51:12
    we say in the first day of class
  • 00:51:15
    agent i has a utility function
  • 00:51:19
    u superscript i of c and that's the end
  • 00:51:22
    of it
  • 00:51:22
    uh and then they maximize utility we
  • 00:51:25
    have pareto improvements and we do
  • 00:51:27
    all sorts of things but that's not much
  • 00:51:29
    of a theory of the good life of agent i
  • 00:51:32
    uh and if we took seriously what is a
  • 00:51:35
    good life
  • 00:51:36
    we would have a different kind of
  • 00:51:38
    economics
  • 00:51:40
    i think because so much of our economics
  • 00:51:43
    is
  • 00:51:44
    well our economics should be organized
  • 00:51:47
    around
  • 00:51:48
    uh enabling humanity to achieve
  • 00:51:53
    a good life when people were poor
  • 00:51:57
    a good life meant more
  • 00:52:00
    wealth so it made perfect sense for adam
  • 00:52:03
    smith
  • 00:52:04
    in 1776 to write the wealth of nations
  • 00:52:08
    now we need the well-being of nations
  • 00:52:11
    because we're after not just wealth
  • 00:52:12
    we're after well-being
  • 00:52:14
    well-being is physical and mental
  • 00:52:16
    well-being
  • 00:52:17
    is a social well-being is societies that
  • 00:52:20
    function properly
  • 00:52:22
    is environmental well-being is people
  • 00:52:25
    living
  • 00:52:26
    with a good balance of work and leisure
  • 00:52:30
    because leisure is really an important
  • 00:52:32
    idea
  • 00:52:33
    not if you're impoverished uh in 1776
  • 00:52:37
    people weren't spending a lot of time
  • 00:52:39
    thinking about leisure except for a tiny
  • 00:52:41
    leisure class
  • 00:52:42
    but now people have time because
  • 00:52:45
    machines can do a lot of our work
  • 00:52:47
    so what should we be doing with our
  • 00:52:49
    lives that's a good economics question
  • 00:52:52
    both a normative one and a very
  • 00:52:55
    practical
  • 00:52:56
    one in terms of organizing work activity
  • 00:52:59
    should everybody have guaranteed
  • 00:53:01
    vacation time should everybody have
  • 00:53:03
    guaranteed leave time
  • 00:53:04
    uh how should the life cycle be
  • 00:53:07
    organized in a world in which people
  • 00:53:09
    don't really have to work
  • 00:53:11
    so many hours if we deploy these
  • 00:53:13
    technologies properly
  • 00:53:15
    in order to achieve the basic
  • 00:53:18
    economic goods but i do find it as a
  • 00:53:22
    prima facie
  • 00:53:23
    a challenge to economics that
  • 00:53:27
    here we're as rich as can be
  • 00:53:31
    and we're destroying the planet and we
  • 00:53:33
    can't figure out that
  • 00:53:35
    that's a paradox and
  • 00:53:38
    still environmental economics is a kind
  • 00:53:41
    of footnote
  • 00:53:42
    and climate change as well we should
  • 00:53:46
    have a tax on carbon dioxide
  • 00:53:49
    it's all done the most momentous
  • 00:53:52
    problems are treated as
  • 00:53:55
    footnotes uh rather than as central
  • 00:53:59
    concerns
  • 00:54:00
    for uh an ethical profession
  • 00:54:06
    yeah thank you thank you so much
  • 00:54:08
    professor x and thanks for all the
  • 00:54:10
    questions from
  • 00:54:11
    from the audience yeah personally i
  • 00:54:13
    really enjoyed the last part because it
  • 00:54:14
    really motivates me to be optimistic to
  • 00:54:17
    bring
  • 00:54:17
    knowledge from not just economics but
  • 00:54:19
    from different fields
  • 00:54:21
    like engineering technology to tackle
  • 00:54:23
    some of the most urgent problems
  • 00:54:24
    and to put important problems uh
  • 00:54:28
    including environmental economics into
  • 00:54:29
    the central part of our lives
  • 00:54:33
    so uh that will be the last question
  • 00:54:35
    from tonight
  • 00:54:36
    and before we close off for tonight i
  • 00:54:37
    would like to quickly share the details
  • 00:54:39
    of
  • 00:54:40
    two upcoming sessions happening on the
  • 00:54:42
    next mondays
  • 00:54:43
    the first one would be uh on why we need
  • 00:54:46
    pluralism
  • 00:54:47
    in economics and while the second one
  • 00:54:50
    will be in
  • 00:54:50
    the stud the study of the intersection
  • 00:54:53
    between neo
  • 00:54:54
    canadianism can keynesian economics
  • 00:54:57
    and feminism so to end off uh
  • 00:55:01
    dr uh professor sex we really enjoy the
  • 00:55:04
    talk
  • 00:55:05
    and we look forward to your new book on
  • 00:55:07
    the ethics of a good life
  • 00:55:09
    and with that uh thank you everyone and
  • 00:55:11
    we wish you a fantastic evening ahead
  • 00:55:14
    thanks to all of you zach thank you so
  • 00:55:16
    much uh for the chance
  • 00:55:18
    to be with all of you i really
  • 00:55:19
    appreciate it yeah
  • 00:55:21
    okay hope to see you soon
Tags
  • 经济发展
  • 工业革命
  • 可持续发展
  • 不平等
  • 环境危机
  • 人类福祉
  • 经济学
  • 财富分配
  • 公共投资
  • 技术变革