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Our
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[Music]
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main story tonight concerns gangs.
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Something Tampa police once warned
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teenagers about like this.
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Think it's cool to be a baller, shot
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caller?
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Want to end up like this? Join a gang
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and chances are you will. The choice is
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yours, so make the right choice. Open
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your eyes and wake up before it's too
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late.
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Holy
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Take it down a thousand notches. Because
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when you show a dead body pop up like a
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Jack in the Box, you're not implying
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joining a gang will kill you. You're
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implying it'll turn you into a
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flesheating zombie. And if that is true,
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gangs are the least of your problems
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right now, Tampa. Gangs have long been a
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target of law enforcement. And this
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story concerns a commonly used tool
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police have developed to thwart them.
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Gang databases. basically lists the
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police keep of people they say are
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involved in gangs. You might remember
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earlier this year the government used
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them as a justification to deport
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immigrants. Most famously in the case of
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Kilar Abrao Garcia whose deportation
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they later admitted was a mistake before
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Trump doubled down on this Microsoft
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Paint being actual evidence. He
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initially talked about the case like
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this. You're talking about ago Garcia.
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Is that the one? Yeah. is an illegal
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alien MS-13 gang member in foreign
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terrorist. This comes out of the State
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Department and very legitimate sources.
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I mean, I assume I'm reading. I'm just
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giving you what they handed to me, but
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this was supposed to be certified stuff.
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Oh, was it? Okay. Well, I'm glad it's
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certified stuff. That's reassuring.
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But, you know, you don't always have to
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read what they hand you, right? If they
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handed you mine comp, would you read it
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out loud? You know, I take that back.
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That's a terrible example. You wouldn't
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just read it. you do a fun little riff
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on it in the briefing room, but it is
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worth talking about those legitimate
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sources because one of the few pieces of
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evidence authorities have produced to
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support those MS-13 allegations is ago
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Garcia's 2019 entry into something
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called Gangnet, a regional gang
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database. Basically, back in 2019, cops
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apparently approached Garcia and three
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others at a Home Depot in Maryland,
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filled out a form identifying them as
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gang members, and submitted it to Gang
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Net. officers apparently observed he was
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wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie
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with rolls of money covering the eyes,
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ears, and mouth of the president, saying
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they know such clothing to be indicative
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of the Hispanic gang culture. And that
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wearing the Chicago Bulls hat represents
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that they're a member in good standing
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with MS-13, which is already a little
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bit weird because it implies that
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somehow if you're not up to date on your
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monthly MS-13 dues, your Bulls hat
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privileges get revoked.
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The the cop filling out that form also
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cited a past proven and reliable source
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of information who supposedly
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corroborated that Garcia was an active
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member of MS-13. Though you'd know that
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cop was suspended just a week later,
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plead guilty to misconduct on an
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unrelated issue, was ultimately fired.
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Nevertheless, that gang allegation meant
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Arbago Garcia was denied bond and spent
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months locked up in ICE detention. In
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fact, it later emerged that he is the
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guy in this local news piece from 2020
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speaking anonymously about his
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experience. I spoke with an immigrant
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who was looking for work outside of this
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Home Depot in March 2019. He tells me he
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was falsely labeled as a gang member and
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was detained for almost 8 months.
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I don't know why they noticed me.
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Perhaps because of my Latino race, they
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labeled me as a gang member, which I
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have never been, and I have no criminal
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record in my country or in the United
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States.
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Yeah, that is ridiculous. A person's
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clothing shouldn't be criteria for
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locking them up for eight months. As we
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all know, the worst consequence for
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fashion choices should be getting
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roasted by teens on TikTok. Maddie B
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from Georgia has a right to our
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opinions, but that doesn't mean that
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they don't hurt. Hey, Maddie, you.
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Congratulations on your sweet 16, but
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you.
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And notably, two separate federal judges
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have looked at the government's evidence
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and found it unconvincing with one on
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Wednesday writing that for the court to
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find that Abrago is a member of or in
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affiliation with MS-13 would border on
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fanciful. And this isn't the only story
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that brings these databases into
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question. The Trump administration also
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deported this Venezuelan man, Francisco
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Garcia Casik, to the El Salvador and
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prison, Sakott, claiming he's a member
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of Tren Aaragua, something that he and
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his family strongly deny. And while the
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government hasn't supplied any evidence
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for that claim, reporters discovered a
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Texas gang database does list him as a
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member of that gang. But that listing
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has some pretty big red flags on it,
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including that that photo is of someone
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else entirely. Those are two whole
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different genres of men. And it was only
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after this was pointed out that
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authorities removed his entry from
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Texas's database. And at that point,
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it's about as trustworthy as those ads
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at the bottom of websites with headlines
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like, "You'll never believe what Angela
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Basset looks like as a child paired with
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a photo of Little Miss Sunshine." Guys,
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I don't think that's her.
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The fact is around the country many
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local and state police departments keep
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these databases sometimes without
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disclosing them despite investigations
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repeatedly finding them to be
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notoriously inconsistent and opaque
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riddled with questionable entries and
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errors and rife with unreliable
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intelligence. So given all of that
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tonight let's talk about gang databases,
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how people end up on them and the
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massive problems they can cause. Before
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we start, let's just briefly discuss
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what a gang is. Because the word can
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conjure up media representations of
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tight, coordinated groups whose members
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are all engaged in sophisticated
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criminal conspiracies and violent
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crimes. But nowadays, a gang can look
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wildly different with many being loose
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groups of teenagers banding together for
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protection, status, or a feeling of
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community. There's a lot of variability
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here, and not all gang members may even
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be engaged in crime. As one researcher
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has put it, not all gang members are
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criminals and not all criminals are gang
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members. Unfortunately, none of that
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nuance is on display in these databases.
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And depending where you live, the
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reasons to be added to one can be
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worryingly broad. As this defense
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attorney explains,
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it is a database entirely maintained by
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law enforcement that has no scrutiny
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from any other branch of government or
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from any citizen organization or from
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anybody whatsoever. They control this
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database completely. And if they want
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you in this database, they can put you
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in this database.
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So, we don't know what they're doing or
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how they're doing it.
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Nope. As far as you know, you could be
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in that database. I could be in that
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database. Well, that is not ideal
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because in terms of lists you don't want
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to find your name on, a police gang
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database seems like one of the worst.
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Right above the Epstein client list,
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which luckily remember doesn't exist.
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And I can't believe anyone's still
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talking about it.
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The criteria to be added to a gang
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database are typically unrelated to
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criminal conduct and more focused on how
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a person looks, acts, and whom they
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associate with. Some places even have a
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point system where certain actions or
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identifiers get added up to qualify you
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for inclusion. The Boston Police
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Department uses a point system for
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identifying gang members and associates.
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For example, if you're in a group photo
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or have contact with a gang member,
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that's two points. If you use gang
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paraphernalia or other identifiers,
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that'll earn you four points. Six points
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and you're considered a gang associate.
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10 points and you are a verified gang
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member. Yeah, but that evidence seems
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pretty weak. Just being in one group
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photo with someone doesn't automatically
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mean you're meaningfully linked. There
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is a reason that we don't call the
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people in this photo the Kevin Spy gang.
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But it's not just photos and
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paraphernalia. Being in a known gang
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location or wearing gang colors can also
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land you in a database. But that can get
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very subjective as at one point the
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colors the NYPD considered to be
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associated with various gangs were
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black, gold, yellow, red, purple, green,
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blue, white, brown, khaki, gray, orange,
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and lime green. That sounds less like a
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thoroughly vetted list of game
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signifiers and more like someone naming
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what colors the Gap Factory Foreversoft
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shrunken crew neck t-shirt comes in.
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Also, for the record, lime green is just
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a terrible gang color. Nobody looks good
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in lime green, except maybe Jessica
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Chastain once. Now, as for associating
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with known gang members, that can mean
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merely talking to an alleged member,
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being seen walking next to them, or
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simply having the status of friends on a
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social media platform. In some places,
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even being the victim of alleged gang
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violence counts towards getting someone
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on the database. In Boston, that can
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earn you eight of the 10 points
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required. And the thing is, the evidence
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can get even thinner, as in many places,
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the sole criteria can be self-
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admission. And just watch as the NYPD's
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then chief of detectives gets asked a
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fairly obvious follow-up about that.
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People self- admit to us every day in
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New York City. So, self- admission will
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get you in the criminal group database.
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So, does the police officer, patrol
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officer perhaps ask, "Are you in a
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gang?" And people just willingly answer
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that question. Yeah, I I would I would
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that is not generally what happens,
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right? Of course it isn't. No one's
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going to voluntarily tell a cop that
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they're in a gang unless they just got
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kicked in the head by a police horse.
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What self admission can actually mean is
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we found something on your social media
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that we've decided constitutes you
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admitting to being in a gang. But that
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can include things like online posts
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simply using the word gang. In one
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instance, a teenager who posted a
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picture with a friend with a caption,
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"Happy birthday gang," was added to a
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database with self- admission listed as
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one of the reasons. And if the bar is
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that low, anything is basically a
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confession. A pick of you holding a
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diploma with a caption, "Killed it.
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Congratulations, grad, but guess what?
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Now you're wanted for murder."
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And while so far I've been saying anyone
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can be added to these lists, those who
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end up on them are heavily people of
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color. In DC, their database at one
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point had almost 2,000 names on it and
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only one individual was white. One in
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total. Do you know how few lists there
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are with only one white guy on them?
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It's basically this database and the
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cast of Hamilton. That is it.
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And police can cast a pretty wide net
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when it comes to flagging people as
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potential gang members. A 2023 audit of
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the NYPD's database found they
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designated entire public housing
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buildings as gang locations. And in
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California, this man was approached by
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police in what they apparently
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considered a known gang location, which
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was just a park in South Central LA.
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They jump out, they come over there to
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us. Hey, you guys, we got a call that
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y'all was drinking and your loudness. I
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said, well, ain't nothing there's
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nothing on the table. So, what what do
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you mean drinking? He says officers
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interviewed them, asked them to hand
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over their IDs, and raise their shirts
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to show any tattoos.
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You can have a tattoo and not be a gang
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member.
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About a week later,
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I got a a letter in in the mail saying
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that I'm a gang member. I'm like, "Wow."
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Yeah.
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Wow. Indeed. Having a tattoo clearly
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doesn't mean you're in a gang, and it
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definitely doesn't mean you've committed
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a crime. Lots of people have them for
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all sorts of reasons, like Adam Lavine,
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who once explained his shark tattoo by
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saying, "I've always had a strange
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fascination with sharks. I actually
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think they're the most fascinating
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creatures on Earth. I guess the tattoo
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had something to do with that." And who
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here can disagree? Adam Lavine, treating
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his body like a 10-year-old sticker book
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doesn't mean he's guilty of a crime.
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Now, DMing an Instagram model, I may
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need to see the booty,
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feels pretty close to one, but that is
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different, isn't it? And it turns out
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that man is not only not a gang member,
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he literally worked in gang intervention
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trying to prevent kids from joining them
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and make communities safer. And he is
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well aware of the irony of all this.
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You can't stereotype everybody that you
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just pull up on. I mean, you got some
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bad pets out here, but then you got some
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bad police out here that don't really
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care about nothing.
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Larry says he's never been in a gang.
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Not interested in joining. I sing. It's
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what I do.
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And he's pretty good at it. His rap name
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is LV, short for large variety. And his
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big claim to fameise,
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singing the vocals for Kulio's
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Grammyinning song, Gangsters Paradise in
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1995. It's true. He's basically music
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royalty.
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And for for anyone who doesn't know,
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Gangsters Paradise was a hit song from
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the well-meaning white teacher movie
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Dangerous Minds. And it's one of the
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rare rap songs without any cursing in it
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because it samples a Stevie Wonder song.
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and he apparently didn't want to clear
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the sample until Culio offered to take
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out all the swears and then he agreed.
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So to recap here, the police put the
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gang interventionist from the clean rap
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song about the cyclical nature of gang
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violence on California's gang database.
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And a pretty good sign these databases
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have too many names in them is just how
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quickly they get smaller as soon as
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people start asking questions. After the
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police in DC faced a spate of news
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articles and lawsuits, they suddenly
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managed to remove nearly half of the
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individuals on their database, which
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isn't surprising given it turns out a
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police lieutenant there had admonished
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his staff about weak and bad validations
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in the gang database, writing sooner or
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later the entire unit is going to get
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burned for this. And in some cases,
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people have been flagged as gang members
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seemingly out of pure spite. Take what
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happened in Phoenix just a few years
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back. Inside the state's gang member
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database, you'll find the names of 17 of
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these umbrella carrying protesters. In
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October 2020, they marched in the middle
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of downtown Phoenix streets, followed by
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many more Phoenix officers. Then they
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huddled on a street corner where they
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got arrested and eventually charged as a
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criminal street gang. To charge as a
00:13:50
street gang in Arizona, the law is
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broad. You need just two of the
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following criteria. And here are the
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ones that officials claimed for the
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protesters. They carried umbrellas. They
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wore mostly black and they chanted, "All
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cops are bastards." For those reasons,
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officials labeled them members of AAB, a
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gang of extremists.
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Yeah, that happened. The cops rounded up
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17 people at the Black Lives Matter
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protest and branded them all as a gang.
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With one police sergeant even telling a
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grand jury that they were more dangerous
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than the Crips, the Bloods, and the
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Hell's Angels, which is a pretty major
00:14:24
exaggeration given their energy doesn't
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scream violent gang so much as goth
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singing in the rain.
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As for the wearing all black, that is
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not suspicious. That's called taste. And
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that's not me talking. That's Coco
00:14:36
Chanel, honey. If you have a problem
00:14:38
with that, tell it to her grave in
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Switzerland where all true fashionistas
00:14:43
get buried. Now, in that case, the State
00:14:46
Department of Public Safety declined to
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add those people to the database, and
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for good reason, especially given some
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had never even met before that night,
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and one was this guy who just saw them
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walk by and started taking photos. But
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however you get onto these lists,
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whether it's a Facebook post, living in
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the wrong building, or just annoying the
00:15:04
cops, it can be very hard to get off.
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Few places have real mechanisms for
00:15:09
challenging your placement, assuming you
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even know you're on one in the first
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place. Because while that singer got a
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letter in the mail, California is one of
00:15:16
the few places that requires you be
00:15:18
notified if you're added to a database.
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And let's say you were in a gang, but
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you left, which is actually pretty
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common. And experts say most people who
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join gangs might just try it out for a
00:15:28
couple of years, then leave. The problem
00:15:30
is, while departments are supposed to
00:15:32
re-evaluate gang database entries at
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least every 5 years and purge those that
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officers can't reconfirm, that doesn't
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always happen. One of the first in-depth
00:15:41
looks at California's database found it
00:15:42
was rife with names that should have
00:15:44
been purged long ago. And if your name
00:15:46
is in a database, it can open you up to
00:15:49
even more interaction with police, as
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you're more likely to get stopped and
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searched or arrested for a minor
00:15:55
infraction, which is obviously
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dangerous, especially for people of
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color, who remember are the vast
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majority of those on these databases.
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Just listen to this man in New York
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explaining how an outdated gang label
00:16:07
came back to haunt him. 32-year-old
00:16:09
Victor Dempsey, a former gang member who
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served prison time at 17 years old for
00:16:13
attempted robbery, says he left his gang
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life behind more than a decade ago. But
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he claims the NYPD's gang database still
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has him listed as a known member, which
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he realized during a recent routine
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traffic stop.
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The fact that they decided to detain me
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in their squad card because I'm labeled
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a gang member is outrageous to me. And I
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did not know until that day. I happened
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to see the monitor and there was a mug
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shut on me that said security risk.
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Yeah, that's a pretty nasty surprise.
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But I will say good on that guy for
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doing what we all do, but very few are
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brave enough to admit to taking a little
00:16:46
peek at someone else's screen. If your
00:16:49
screen is out in public, I'm a peacin. A
00:16:51
four a four paragraph friend breakup on
00:16:53
the subway. Don't mind if I do.
00:16:56
Sarah has been different since the
00:16:58
fourth of July beach hang. And you're
00:17:00
right to tell her over text. And all of
00:17:02
this can have long-term effects. If
00:17:05
you're labeled a gang member, you could
00:17:06
face higher bail, tougher prosecution,
00:17:08
and even a longer sentence. For
00:17:09
instance, in California, let's say
00:17:11
you're accused of stealing a phone and a
00:17:13
charge with robbery. Your sentence might
00:17:15
be around 2 to 5 years. But if you're in
00:17:17
their database and the DA pursues a gang
00:17:20
enhancement charge, you could easily be
00:17:22
facing as much as 15 years. And that
00:17:24
crucially can push people to feel like
00:17:26
they have to take plea deals. And when
00:17:28
it comes to immigrants, the designation
00:17:30
of gang member can be truly
00:17:32
lifealtering. It it can be the reason
00:17:33
that someone's denied various pathways
00:17:35
to remain in the US. And it can make
00:17:37
someone a higher priority for
00:17:38
deportation and the target of a raid.
00:17:41
Take what happened during Trump's first
00:17:43
term. Back then, there was a real
00:17:44
presence of MS-13 in Long Island with
00:17:47
significant associated violence. But
00:17:48
that fed into a paranoia that got wildly
00:17:51
out of hand because schools there were
00:17:53
told to be on the lookout for gang
00:17:54
activity with some maddeningly imprecise
00:17:57
guidance. As both a school administrator
00:17:59
and a community activist there pointed
00:18:01
out,
00:18:02
you really don't see this guy anymore.
00:18:05
You're going to see these guys. It's
00:18:06
going to be the kid in the skinny jeans
00:18:09
and the polo shirt and maybe the Chicago
00:18:12
Bulls cap.
00:18:13
They put on a presentation. They show
00:18:16
images of bandanas or bull's horns and
00:18:21
they tell us that those are items that
00:18:23
if we see the students wearing or
00:18:26
drawing that we should be on the alert
00:18:28
because it's related to a gang.
00:18:30
I've heard things like, "Oh, well, they
00:18:32
scribble 503 in their notebooks. Duh.
00:18:36
It's the area code of of where they come
00:18:38
from."
00:18:39
Yeah. And kids are going to doodle. And
00:18:43
503 is honestly preferable to what most
00:18:46
students are drawing. Dicks. Just loads
00:18:48
and loads of dicks. Octopus with dick
00:18:50
tentacles. The Easter bunny with dick
00:18:53
ears. The school's principal with dicks
00:18:54
for arms, legs, and even hair. They are
00:18:57
lucky their students were doing area
00:18:59
coats instead. And the thing about
00:19:02
telling teachers and school police, look
00:19:03
out for a bunch of kids all wearing the
00:19:05
same thing is that wearing the same
00:19:06
thing is literally what kids do. One
00:19:10
teacher there later told the story of
00:19:11
how she was working lunch duty when a
00:19:13
school security guard told her he
00:19:15
thought it was suspicious that a lot of
00:19:16
the students were wearing the Salvadoran
00:19:18
flag. As she put it, "Thank God I was
00:19:20
there because I told him today is their
00:19:22
independence day." He had no clue. And
00:19:25
just imagine being labeled a gang member
00:19:27
because a school security guard didn't
00:19:29
have international holidays turned on on
00:19:31
his Google calendar.
00:19:33
But unfortunately, not all kids were as
00:19:35
lucky as those in that particular
00:19:37
lunchroom. Because at another high
00:19:38
school in that area, a teenager called
00:19:40
Alex got added to a gang database by a
00:19:43
school resource officer after he was
00:19:44
seen, among other things, wearing blue
00:19:46
sneakers, which school security guards
00:19:48
told him were the color of MS-13. They
00:19:51
also cited the fact that he' written the
00:19:52
numbers 504 on his backpack and a doodle
00:19:55
a devil with horns. You should know Alex
00:19:58
was a Honduran immigrant and 504 was the
00:20:00
Honduras country code. As for the devil,
00:20:02
that was literally that school's mascot.
00:20:05
This is what it looked like. Also blue,
00:20:07
by the way, the color of MS-13.
00:20:11
Nevertheless, Alex got labeled an MS-13
00:20:14
member. And a few months later, ICE
00:20:16
agents came to his house, arrested him,
00:20:18
telling him they'd heard he was a gang
00:20:19
member, and he was eventually deported.
00:20:22
And he wasn't the only one scooped up.
00:20:24
And when a police commissioner there was
00:20:26
asked why he thought collaborating with
00:20:28
ICE was a good idea, he had a pretty
00:20:29
chilling answer.
00:20:31
Why do you need to even bring in ICE
00:20:33
because the evidence isn't strong
00:20:35
enough.
00:20:36
For example, if we have intelligence
00:20:38
that they are a gang member, that's not
00:20:39
necessarily a crime, right? Certainly
00:20:41
being a gang member is not a crime and
00:20:43
the intel that we may have may not
00:20:45
indicate a significant state crime. We
00:20:48
may have something small in them, but
00:20:49
nothing is going to keep them in jail.
00:20:51
So, if we perceive someone as a public
00:20:52
safety threat, we utilize all of our
00:20:54
tools, which include immigration tools.
00:20:56
So, we'll partner with the Department of
00:20:57
Homeland Security to target them for
00:20:59
detention and removal.
00:21:00
Okay, so there is a lot there. First,
00:21:02
thank you for finally answering the
00:21:04
question, what would American dad look
00:21:06
like in real life? But second, if
00:21:08
someone's on your list of big bad
00:21:10
criminals and you can't find any big bad
00:21:12
crime to arrest them for, that suggests
00:21:14
the problem might be your list.
00:21:17
So, it is pretty clear gang databases
00:21:19
are way too easy to get on, way too hard
00:21:21
to get off, and can turn people's lives
00:21:23
upside down. So, what do we do? Well,
00:21:26
I'd argue we get rid of them. And if you
00:21:28
think, well, hold on. How will police
00:21:30
then stop gang violence? I'd say with
00:21:33
police work, they could and should do
00:21:36
actual police work, focusing on where
00:21:38
violence is concentrated instead of
00:21:39
fixating on labels. As one expert who
00:21:42
studied gangs has said, dangerous groups
00:21:44
and dangerous offenders can be tracked
00:21:46
perfectly well by ordinary law
00:21:48
enforcement intelligence methods and
00:21:50
systems. They don't need these databases
00:21:53
to do that. And for what it's worth,
00:21:55
Chicago and Portland, following
00:21:56
criticism, actually scrapped their
00:21:58
databases in recent years. And one
00:22:00
analysis found it has not resulted in an
00:22:02
increase in reported crime. Meanwhile,
00:22:04
departments in other cities, including
00:22:06
some I've mentioned, like Phoenix and
00:22:08
New York, told us they've learned from
00:22:09
the past and tightened up how people are
00:22:12
added to their databases. But that is
00:22:13
very hard to verify given how opaque all
00:22:16
of this is. And I'm not saying violence
00:22:19
associated with gangs isn't real or
00:22:21
isn't a problem. I'm just saying the
00:22:23
answer needs to go beyond policing and
00:22:25
way beyond these databases. One expert
00:22:28
we spoke with emphasized the need to
00:22:30
keep putting resources toward community
00:22:32
violence intervention workers who can
00:22:33
access spaces and networks that police
00:22:35
can't and perhaps shouldn't enter like
00:22:37
family cookouts and peace talks between
00:22:40
waring street crews as those individuals
00:22:41
have the credibility to mediate
00:22:44
disputes, mentor young people at risk
00:22:45
and guide them toward potentially
00:22:47
life-saving opportunities. But until we
00:22:49
make that paradigm shift, we may need to
00:22:52
fundamentally change our understanding
00:22:54
of what being on one of these databases
00:22:56
means. Because when you hear known gang
00:22:59
member or that something was gang
00:23:00
involved on the news, it sounds like
00:23:03
evidence. But as you've seen tonight,
00:23:05
far too often the labels sloppily
00:23:07
applied with flimsy criteria and very
00:23:09
little regard for what the consequences
00:23:11
could be. Keeping these databases as
00:23:14
they are isn't just shortsighted. It is
00:23:16
actively harmful to the communities
00:23:18
they're supposed to be helping. If only
00:23:20
there were a more elegant way to sum all
00:23:23
that up in just a sentence delivered by
00:23:25
someone with firstirhand experience of
00:23:27
this problem. Luckily, I think I may
00:23:29
know just the person to speak to that
00:23:32
point.
00:23:43
Tell me, why are we so blind to see that
00:23:50
the ones we heard are you, you and me?
00:23:55
Good point, Elsie. Spending most our
00:23:58
lives living in a gangers paradise.
00:24:02
Been spending most our lives living in a
00:24:06
gangers paradise.
00:24:08
We keep spending most our lives living
00:24:11
in a gangers paradise.
00:24:14
Keep spending most our life living in a
00:24:18
gangster paradise.
00:24:25
And now this
