00:00:00
an tests who have been warning about
00:00:05
unlimited growth in a finite planet for
00:00:08
40 years and an insight into their point
00:00:11
of view today concerning the present
00:00:13
crisis and the future of the world this
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is the first u.s. presentation of an 18
00:00:21
month study of global limits to growth
00:00:25
sponsored by the Club of Rome with
00:00:27
Volkswagen Foundation funding by an
00:00:30
international team of 17 scientists at
00:00:33
the Massachusetts of Institute of
00:00:35
Technology under the direction of dr.
00:00:37
Dennis L meadows forty years ago I stood
00:00:42
up and presented a question how can
00:00:46
global society organize itself to
00:00:49
provide a just peaceful equitable decent
00:00:54
living for its people now after 40 years
00:00:59
finally the question is starting to be
00:01:03
considered seriously but I'm
00:01:06
apprehensive I have to say that all of
00:01:08
the question is still important the
00:01:10
answer is different than it was 40 years
00:01:13
ago 40 years ago it was still
00:01:17
theoretically possible to slow things
00:01:18
down and come to an equilibrium now
00:01:22
that's no longer possible
00:01:52
today crises are considered to be
00:01:56
independent of each other and when
00:01:58
there's some problem a hurricane or a
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financial collapse or chaos in the
00:02:04
eurozone or bankruptcy in some company
00:02:08
or whatever people focus on that is so
00:02:12
somehow the causes of it were inside our
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book and our field generally says no I
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mean the the causes often are far away
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in time and place from the symptoms of
00:02:29
the problems and indeed my opinion is
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that all of these things are really not
00:02:37
problems in themselves they're a symptom
00:02:41
the problem is physical growth in a
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finite planet the problem is that we
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have taken human population food
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consumption energy use material
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consumption and so forth two levels
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which cannot be sustained looking at
00:03:01
separate crises as symptoms of a global
00:03:03
crisis was also the anticipatory vision
00:03:06
of the man behind the limits to growth
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our leop che the founder of a mysterious
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think tank called the Club of Rome
00:03:17
Kluber film is a group of scientists
00:03:21
humanists educators and businessmen who
00:03:26
is very much concerned about the state
00:03:29
of the world we cannot say that we have
00:03:32
economic and ecological and other
00:03:35
psychological and security problems each
00:03:38
problem is a multi-faceted problem
00:03:41
interconnected and each one interconnect
00:03:44
interacts with the others and that many
00:03:46
of these interactions are explosive
00:03:56
purva montaner ailamma Sima Libertad yet
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in order to ensure the greatest freedom
00:04:03
of thought and action for the Club of
00:04:05
Rome members p'chai established the Club
00:04:08
of Rome as a non organization rather
00:04:11
than an organization I started by
00:04:16
writing to people whose names had
00:04:18
appeared in newspapers and I filed
00:04:21
copies of all those letters in a binder
00:04:23
which I labeled Club of Rome
00:04:28
Pichai told me to leave some room on
00:04:31
that shelf because he expected there
00:04:33
would be more to fill it soon Costa
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practica see multiply Cara presto
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fetch a was one of the first to realize
00:04:45
that the new problems humanity was
00:04:46
facing were global and he was looking
00:04:49
for a scientific model to understand
00:04:51
possible futures
00:04:54
money was needed to start the research
00:04:57
project but there was a problem at that
00:05:01
first meeting in Bern being new and
00:05:04
being an American I thought the best
00:05:07
thing for me to do was to have nothing
00:05:10
to say and just to listen and for the
00:05:14
first time about six o'clock in the
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evening it was stated that the money was
00:05:20
not available from the Volkswagen
00:05:21
Foundation because no methodology had
00:05:25
been settled on for doing the research
00:05:28
so now suddenly you had a project with
00:05:32
new methodology and no money which was
00:05:35
very close to no project Jay Forrester
00:05:39
from MIT one of the pioneers of the
00:05:42
modern computer age was also the founder
00:05:44
of system dynamics the science that
00:05:47
studies the interconnection between
00:05:48
complex systems he was probably the only
00:05:52
person in the world able to give an
00:05:55
answer to the chaise willingness to
00:05:57
understand the future and he was in that
00:06:00
room that day and I told them they could
00:06:03
come to MIT and learn more about this
00:06:05
but they would have to come for two
00:06:07
weeks or not at all because I knew they
00:06:10
would take two weeks for them to really
00:06:12
understand and they agreed that they
00:06:17
would come three weeks from that day so
00:06:19
it was on the airplane coming back Air
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France I think where I had nine coach
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seats to myself I converted them into an
00:06:28
office to spread papers around and begin
00:06:31
to work on a system dynamic simulation
00:06:35
model
00:06:35
what they have been talking about the
00:06:40
problem here is that these systems are
00:06:43
what we have come to call counter
00:06:45
intuitive they do not behave the way we
00:06:48
think they do and there are reasons for
00:06:50
this the human mind has gathered its
00:06:55
intuition and its experience in dealing
00:06:57
with simple systems driving an
00:06:59
automobile is about the most complex
00:07:01
system that the human mind thoroughly
00:07:04
grasps as we come to these more complex
00:07:07
systems we apply to them the lessons
00:07:11
that we've learned in simple systems but
00:07:13
the more complex systems do not behave
00:07:15
in the same way and it's the structure
00:07:18
of the entire system that gives it the
00:07:21
behavior this my friend is my
00:07:29
recollection of the first couple of
00:07:31
years that MIT this is MIT this is how
00:07:35
it looked this is the sunset this from
00:07:38
our apartment so I came to MIT in
00:07:41
January 1972 30 physics I discovered in
00:07:46
two months time that this was not the
00:07:48
point I happen to hear Forrester give a
00:07:52
talk I understood simply from listening
00:07:55
in that this was life I managed to
00:07:57
transfer into the management school then
00:08:00
I got a desk in your group you know and
00:08:03
then basically it came to June meeting
00:08:05
dig for silica lee gave you the
00:08:08
responsibility to execute the program or
00:08:10
how's that done well so on the way back
00:08:13
from the Bern meeting Forster almost
00:08:16
literally on a napkin but on some sort
00:08:18
of paper drew a crude flow diagram for a
00:08:22
global model and he got home and you
00:08:25
know in his home computer over the
00:08:27
weekend programmed a model and had
00:08:31
some was they were not scaled correctly
00:08:33
I remember they were about 25 feet long
00:08:35
but you know typing out typing horses in
00:08:38
the days of selective typewriters
00:08:40
affected then executive committee came
00:08:43
and I remember after about a week I came
00:08:48
home to Danella one night I said you
00:08:51
know this is would be an interesting
00:08:52
project I think I know how to do it so I
00:08:55
wrote a 2-3 page proposal gave it to the
00:08:58
Club of Rome people the next day and
00:09:00
indeed that club decided to take it and
00:09:02
then I put together the team sixteen
00:09:07
people five sectors and so forth Jane
00:09:14
Forester handed over the baton to Denis
00:09:16
meadows and the average age of the
00:09:18
international team of researchers
00:09:19
meadows put together was 26 and a half
00:09:35
a lot of material from back in those
00:09:40
days all right there I am as a graduate
00:09:49
student at MIT there came out a piece of
00:09:54
paper among all the graduate students in
00:09:57
that system dynamics Research Group
00:09:59
saying there is an opportunity here we
00:10:01
have some funding we have some couple of
00:10:02
positions to work on this research
00:10:04
program I ran in Dennis's office as a
00:10:09
graduate student and said this is
00:10:11
fascinating I would like to be on that
00:10:12
team then I said great you were the
00:10:14
first one in here you get to be on the
00:10:16
team
00:10:31
two members of the team nominated by a
00:10:34
senior member of the Club of Rome came
00:10:37
from Germany at a milling and Air exam
00:10:43
the Denison is done Dennis and I were
00:10:46
welcomed into the inner circle of the
00:10:48
Club of Rome the whole project was
00:10:51
financed by the Volkswagen Foundation
00:10:53
witness teams to allow the team to get
00:10:55
to work immediately aralia pacce wrote a
00:10:57
check for over fifty thousand dollars so
00:11:00
we could buy tables and chairs which
00:11:02
were set up in an old factory building
00:11:03
on the MIT campus grounds I typically
00:11:06
call a lack of an MIT calendar a
00:11:09
beginning column
00:11:13
you
00:11:15
so we were eating sleeping and
00:11:18
everything in the officer and an inmate
00:11:21
fun we played frisbee in the office
00:11:36
our envision vadas McClung over fun it
00:11:40
was essentially a group of six people
00:11:41
under the directorship of Denis meadows
00:11:44
and deputy eros Sun and we mustn't
00:11:48
forget the really outstanding
00:11:49
contribution it must be said of Donella
00:11:52
Meadows vanilla middles Donella Meadows
00:11:57
was the main author of the limits to
00:12:00
growth she was not only a scientist but
00:12:03
also a humanist a brilliant writer and
00:12:06
the team's link to the green movement
00:12:07
that was growing at the beginning of the
00:12:10
1970s I think we're one step one
00:12:16
contribution to a change which is indeed
00:12:18
taking place largely among young people
00:12:21
who are trying many experiments some of
00:12:24
which may turn out to be very useful in
00:12:26
an equilibrium society and I think the
00:12:29
thing that encourages me I work in a
00:12:31
university with some of these young
00:12:33
people is that they are discovering with
00:12:36
the alternate lifestyles that they are
00:12:38
trying are not sacrifices they're not
00:12:41
unpleasant and in many ways they're more
00:12:44
satisfying and their lives are more
00:12:46
fulfilling than they would have been if
00:12:49
they followed the pattern which we have
00:12:51
come to regard as the cultural pattern
00:12:52
of America
00:12:58
at that time we were all optimists every
00:13:03
single one of us believed that the
00:13:06
research that we were doing in the book
00:13:08
that we were writing was a prescription
00:13:13
for optimism because we saw that these
00:13:16
plant these planetary issues were
00:13:19
totally solvable totally manageable all
00:13:23
it took all it would take would be human
00:13:28
action
00:13:35
eventually I want to understand
00:13:37
population and one influence on
00:13:40
population is deaths
00:13:43
the limits to growth put together twelve
00:13:46
possible scenarios of the future varying
00:13:49
from collapse scenarios to equilibrium
00:13:51
ones and I've assumed that that's a
00:13:54
function of food per capita the
00:13:56
difference between collapse and
00:13:57
equilibrium came from human choices
00:14:02
professor John Sterman still teaches the
00:14:05
content of the book at the MIT today
00:14:08
what did the limits to growth really say
00:14:11
so what we have here is a very simple
00:14:14
qualitative diagram showing the limits
00:14:17
to growth concepts over here we have
00:14:20
population which grows exponentially
00:14:23
unless restrain unless people reduce
00:14:25
their fertility and here's the growth of
00:14:27
the economy which also grows
00:14:28
exponentially all that growth is
00:14:30
happening in the context of a finite
00:14:33
planet important parts of the global
00:14:36
system are basically structured to give
00:14:42
exponential growth population and
00:14:44
industrial growth are inherently
00:14:47
exponential it's not an accident that
00:14:49
they show this explosive growth pattern
00:14:52
that's built into the nature of the
00:14:55
systems when we approach the limits of
00:14:59
the earth we will not basically move
00:15:03
towards those limits and then smoothly
00:15:05
fit in the world population and activity
00:15:09
under the carrying capacity of the of
00:15:12
the planet we will because of Decision
00:15:16
delays shoot through the sustainable
00:15:19
level and then move into unsustainable
00:15:23
territory
00:15:24
from which there is only one way back
00:15:26
either organized adduction managed
00:15:30
decline or nature takes over and forces
00:15:33
us down back to sustainable territory
00:15:40
obviously if there are a lot of harmful
00:15:43
side effects of our technologies if
00:15:45
there are long delays in the response of
00:15:48
the social and technical system to
00:15:50
scarcity if the price system if markets
00:15:53
don't work effectively we're in trouble
00:15:56
but the real lesson of limits to growth
00:15:58
is that even if all of those things work
00:16:01
it still doesn't solve the problem as
00:16:04
long as everybody wants more the limits
00:16:13
to growth was a huge success worldwide
00:16:16
it was translated into more than 30
00:16:19
languages and sold more than 10 million
00:16:21
copies and the warning from the book
00:16:24
soon began to spark huge public
00:16:26
discussion if you don't have the idea
00:16:31
that growth is desirable and possible
00:16:33
you don't have economics and so as soon
00:16:37
as the book came out all the economists
00:16:39
were just outraged the first major
00:16:44
criticism came out just a few weeks
00:16:47
after the limits to growth it appeared
00:16:49
in the New York Times Book Review
00:16:51
a whole page first page and it was
00:16:54
written by three macro economists we're
00:16:57
the forerunners of 30 years or 40 years
00:17:01
of criticism really mystical it's
00:17:02
continuing to this day you know most my
00:17:04
classical macroeconomists thinks this is
00:17:07
a piece of [ __ ] a projection for
00:17:12
disaster and this is so typical of the
00:17:16
time here's a here's an article entitled
00:17:19
starvation specter world's future faith
00:17:25
or suicide that brings back the feelings
00:17:29
of that times like guys you're not
00:17:32
getting our message if we have 30 days
00:17:36
to say
00:17:37
of the world would we act before the
00:17:39
29th now that one actually got the
00:17:44
message we're dealing with dynamic
00:17:48
systems with long time constants don't
00:17:50
try to do it on the 29th day do it on
00:17:54
the first or second day and don't waste
00:17:56
the 1st 2nd 3rd and all the way the 26
00:17:58
days talking about whether or not the
00:18:00
science says we shed in June 1972 a few
00:18:08
months after the publication of the
00:18:09
limits to growth world leaders gathered
00:18:12
in Stockholm
00:18:13
for the very first environmental
00:18:14
conference chaired by the Canadian
00:18:17
Morris strong who was deeply influenced
00:18:19
by the books message a compromise
00:18:24
between the interests of all countries
00:18:26
was very difficult to find but the
00:18:28
global concern about the state of the
00:18:30
planet was marked by the Stockholm
00:18:32
declaration and if it were to contain
00:18:35
nothing more than that principle that
00:18:37
nations must accept responsibility for
00:18:39
the consequences of their actions on
00:18:41
others it would be a historic document
00:18:44
and an extremely important base on which
00:18:46
to build the limits to growth had a
00:18:51
strong impact in Germany as well as in
00:18:53
many other countries
00:18:54
dividing politicians and public opinion
00:18:58
in my hidden hide a cup of home after
00:19:01
all the Club of Rome was awarded the
00:19:03
Peace Prize of the German book trade for
00:19:05
the limits to growth the book was on
00:19:09
Spiegel's bestseller list for several
00:19:11
years and was also positively received
00:19:13
in industry I think I gave over 60
00:19:18
presentations during the first year and
00:19:21
most of them were to people from
00:19:23
business and industry we in London Eamon
00:19:27
revenants yes he warned some tylium
00:19:30
cleansiness because we claimed there
00:19:32
were limits to growth that we'd have to
00:19:34
limit population growth we'd have to
00:19:35
reduce the consumption of resources and
00:19:37
to limit the environmental impact
00:19:39
we were labeled communists advocates of
00:19:41
planned economy and all sorts of things
00:19:43
that we certainly are not and never were
00:19:46
dr. cinema nice in don't varlam given
00:19:49
offered by feeling we also participated
00:19:52
in many discussions we sat in a row and
00:19:55
were bombarded with questions from
00:19:57
journalists and experts in various
00:19:59
fields there were plenty of adverse
00:20:02
positions many unreflective but
00:20:05
interestingly some actually got a better
00:20:07
understanding of what we were trying to
00:20:08
express because a lot of them hadn't
00:20:10
even read the book or only superficially
00:20:13
on Jesus and I thought this is total
00:20:16
disinformation and not a good style for
00:20:18
political leadership
00:20:30
imagine being in your twenties and
00:20:32
finding yourself in the middle of a
00:20:34
global controversy how did the authors
00:20:39
react the response they met was
00:20:43
particularly in the US was really harsh
00:20:46
and severe calling them Malthusian or
00:20:49
doomsday prophets and things like that
00:20:52
and that was a surprise and each of the
00:20:56
authors dealt with that and the and the
00:21:00
following controversy that came up
00:21:04
around the book in different ways when
00:21:10
we wrote the limits the wrote I thought
00:21:12
that once we told the world that the
00:21:15
planet is small and that it's a great
00:21:17
challenge for Humanity to fit a large
00:21:20
population and a large economy onto this
00:21:22
tiny little planet
00:21:23
I had thought naively that the world
00:21:27
would listen and say yes you know
00:21:30
clearly this is good advice and we're
00:21:32
going to follow this advice it didn't
00:21:36
take long before I really understood
00:21:39
that that was not the case and after ten
00:21:43
years of trying to push the message
00:21:45
during the 1970s I basically gave up and
00:21:49
and said that this is too early you know
00:21:52
we have to wait another 20 years or so
00:21:54
until the real world problems become
00:21:57
more acute and more easily absurd by
00:22:00
most people and then we can start once
00:22:02
more and try to assist a shift in the
00:22:05
direction of sustainable development
00:22:11
and Dana had left MIT started up a
00:22:14
research program at Dartmouth their
00:22:16
interest was similar to mine create
00:22:18
sustainable communities on a small scale
00:22:21
I essentially followed them went up to
00:22:24
Dartmouth started teaching and research
00:22:26
at Dartmouth and after one semester four
00:22:29
months roughly decided that I had to
00:22:32
make a right-hand turn my life choice
00:22:42
bought a small log cabin in the
00:22:46
foothills of Vermont that had no power
00:22:49
no telephone ran on kerosene lights
00:22:53
heated with burning firewood created an
00:22:56
organic garden started raising animals
00:22:59
you know on a personal level I'm going
00:23:02
to do this and see what it takes to live
00:23:04
in harmony and with a low carbon
00:23:07
footprint that term wasn't even
00:23:10
developed by that at that time by the
00:23:12
way
00:23:12
but that's what we were talking about
00:23:16
Donella Meadows reaction was to continue
00:23:19
teaching and writing columns and essays
00:23:22
motivating people to envision the future
00:23:26
I've been working on this vision of a
00:23:28
sustainable world for a long time I can
00:23:30
literally see it a sustainable world
00:23:33
that isn't a sacrifice or a bunch of
00:23:35
difficult regulations a sustainable
00:23:38
world that I would love to live in and
00:23:41
having such a vision alive in me
00:23:44
prevents me from selling out to
00:23:47
something less that someone else may be
00:23:50
offering me such as the vision of
00:23:52
Perpetual economic growth which is
00:23:54
pretty much the vision that the whole
00:23:55
field of economy economics gives us
00:23:58
growth isn't what I want
00:24:00
growth has nothing to do with what I
00:24:02
want and I think the only reason growth
00:24:05
which is a terribly abstract and when
00:24:07
you think about it stupid vision of the
00:24:10
future I think the only reason that can
00:24:13
be sold so easily in every policy arena
00:24:17
is that there's nothing there's no
00:24:19
alternative vision in recent years so
00:24:23
many claim that we live in a world of
00:24:26
limits where all nations even those as
00:24:28
bountiful as our own must learn to live
00:24:30
with less perhaps you remember a report
00:24:33
published a few years back called the
00:24:35
limits to growth that title limits to
00:24:38
growth said it all why did President
00:24:42
Reagan attack a little book more than 10
00:24:44
years after its publication because the
00:24:48
limits to growth had become the bone of
00:24:50
contention between Republicans and the
00:24:52
previous carter administration by the
00:24:56
end of this century I want our nation to
00:24:58
derive 20% of all the energy we use from
00:25:02
the Sun direct solar energy and
00:25:05
radiation and also renewable forms of
00:25:08
energy derive more indirectly from the
00:25:10
Sun this is a bold proposal and it's an
00:25:14
ambitious goal but it is attainable if
00:25:19
we have the will to achieve it a short
00:25:21
termism it really rules the world in the
00:25:24
sense that most people most politicians
00:25:26
most businesses you know are more
00:25:29
interested in the short term interest
00:25:31
than in doing creating a better world
00:25:33
for our grandchildren
00:25:39
they are the living image of the young
00:25:43
people I have always in mind while in
00:25:46
work I think that we have prepared for
00:25:48
them a very ugly world we have to do
00:25:52
something to correct what we have done
00:25:54
so far and in some ways surprising it's
00:25:57
rather incredible that in this day of
00:26:01
superpowers of multinational
00:26:05
corporations of demagogues and of mass
00:26:09
media as a single man with a few
00:26:12
companions should have any influence to
00:26:17
the extent that the Club of Rome and
00:26:19
aralia have had even though their mentor
00:26:27
or le opha was not there any longer in
00:26:30
1992 20 years after the publication of
00:26:33
the limits to growth Dennis and Donella
00:26:36
Meadows and jörgen Randers decided to
00:26:38
test their scenarios these are pictures
00:26:41
of Jurgen and Dennis and Dana mostly
00:26:46
taken at foundation farm in Plainfield
00:26:49
New Hampshire and the whole team bill
00:26:52
came over from Maine for this picture
00:26:54
the team reassembled again 20 years
00:26:57
after the limits to growth my role was
00:27:01
as a researcher digging up numbers on
00:27:05
world trends so food production
00:27:09
per-capita food production population
00:27:11
changes and there was really an open
00:27:15
question
00:27:15
bringing the scenarios forward by 20
00:27:20
years what were our options and through
00:27:24
that work the title for the new book
00:27:27
emerged which was beyond the limits
00:27:31
1992 was also the year of the Rio United
00:27:35
Nations conference on the environment
00:27:37
and twenty years after Stockholm the
00:27:40
limits to growth was still the enemy to
00:27:42
fight twenty years ago some spoke of the
00:27:46
limits to growth and today we realize
00:27:49
that growth is the engine of change and
00:27:52
the friend of the environment this world
00:27:56
leaders have gathered 18 more times
00:27:58
since Rio and decisions are still being
00:28:01
delayed now I give the floor to European
00:28:05
Union Thank You mr. president
00:28:08
although good progress in various
00:28:11
strikes so far has been done including
00:28:13
on the finance and we really strongly
00:28:15
feel that time is running out
00:28:26
Pichai and the limits to growth team
00:28:28
tried their best to warn decision-makers
00:28:31
about the risks of unlimited growth but
00:28:35
even when apparently everyone agrees the
00:28:37
risk is serious as with climate change
00:28:40
action is still not taken when I was 27
00:28:45
and just did the limits of growth I had
00:28:49
a very different understanding of the
00:28:51
world you see there's two general
00:28:59
mentalities about policy scientists
00:29:05
gather data and say oh my goodness the
00:29:07
sea levels going up intensive storms are
00:29:10
becoming worse droughts and
00:29:11
precipitation patterns are becoming more
00:29:13
difficult there's climate change we need
00:29:15
to change our greenhouse gas emissions
00:29:17
the other mentality says I don't believe
00:29:20
climate change because the glaciers are
00:29:22
actually getting bigger and then the
00:29:25
scientists do some studies they say no
00:29:26
actually the glaciers are getting
00:29:28
smaller around the world and then the
00:29:31
climate skeptics say well actually I
00:29:33
don't care about the glaciers so much I
00:29:34
don't believe in climate change I refuse
00:29:37
to take action now because the polar
00:29:39
bears are actually better off than they
00:29:42
used to be then the scientists do some
00:29:45
work and they say no actually the polar
00:29:46
peers for terrible trouble now they're
00:29:48
drowning they don't have any food
00:29:49
anymore the ice is going away from them
00:29:51
and the climate skeptic says well
00:29:53
actually I don't care so much about
00:29:55
polar bears really I mean I don't
00:29:58
believe in climate change because there
00:30:00
was a lot of snow in Washington DC last
00:30:02
winter
00:30:14
when I was a child
00:30:16
this licking Valley was full of small
00:30:20
deciduous trees crowded and then over
00:30:23
the last 50 to 60 years they have died
00:30:26
out due to competition and the biomass
00:30:28
is then concentrated into big trees
00:30:31
likely this is a Norwegian spruce and
00:30:34
it's very big you know for being this
00:30:36
far north you know people think what
00:30:40
about plus 2 degrees centigrade that's
00:30:43
so little it doesn't really matter but
00:30:45
it actually moves timber lines 300 350
00:30:49
meters vertical so what you have in the
00:30:52
Alps at a certain level will move 350
00:30:55
metres up what you have at the top will
00:30:58
move into the heaven and remain there
00:31:01
and and these are tremendous shifts and
00:31:06
at the same time the climate zones are
00:31:10
moving towards the North Pole you know
00:31:13
by essentially five kilometres per year
00:31:16
science depends on agreement you know
00:31:21
that that we can't we can't ever be
00:31:25
100.000 percent certain about any
00:31:28
anything on the planet but we can be
00:31:32
99.99 percent certain and that's where
00:31:35
we are about global climate change won't
00:31:39
do the limits to growth authors think
00:31:41
about the future now bill barons choice
00:31:47
to act has led to him personally
00:31:49
installing solar panels all over New
00:31:51
England for the last 20 years
00:31:55
solar energy worldwide is the most
00:31:59
abundant form of energy it's the lowest
00:32:02
cost form of electrical energy now on
00:32:05
the planet solar energy in my view has
00:32:10
the greatest chance for us as a as a
00:32:14
species of climbing back out of the hole
00:32:18
that we've put ourselves into
00:32:23
juergen Randers answer is in a book
00:32:25
entitled 2050 to his forecast for the
00:32:28
next 40 years
00:32:30
the real challenge that I see the real
00:32:33
problem is the possibility of self
00:32:36
reinforcing climate change in the second
00:32:39
half of this century I think that man
00:32:42
will continue his emissions of
00:32:45
greenhouse gases at such a rate that we
00:32:47
will reach plus 3 degrees centigrade in
00:32:50
2018 and that's possibly enough to start
00:32:55
melting the tundra or at least it will
00:32:57
move the border of the tundra further
00:33:00
north which releases methane and carbon
00:33:04
dioxide from the frozen moss which is
00:33:07
essentially the tundra and the our
00:33:10
strong greenhouse gases which of course
00:33:11
then makes the temperature even higher
00:33:14
which then melts more Tundra which then
00:33:16
releases more methane into the
00:33:18
atmosphere and if this process starts
00:33:22
there is then nothing man can do it will
00:33:25
go all the way until all the tundra is
00:33:27
melted and all the methane is in the
00:33:30
atmosphere dennis Meadows keeps
00:33:34
traveling the world as he has been doing
00:33:37
for the past four decades updating and
00:33:40
warning decision-makers about the
00:33:41
perspectives for the future from his
00:33:44
point of view this is from if an
00:33:47
aggressor baek-moo it's a great pleasure
00:33:48
to be here in Berlin I'm afraid I'll
00:33:52
have to switch to English due to the
00:33:54
limitations of my German I'd rather
00:33:56
speak intelligently in English then
00:33:58
sounds stupid in German auf Deutsch
00:34:08
the limits to growth story shows that 40
00:34:12
years were lost what are the actions we
00:34:15
could take now according to your ghen
00:34:17
Randers and Dennis Meadows global
00:34:21
problems affect everyone Claud you only
00:34:25
solve these problems if everybody works
00:34:27
together you can't solve climate change
00:34:30
in Bucharest if they don't solve it in
00:34:33
Beijing and grow New York and so forth
00:34:38
and a problem with these problems is
00:34:41
that you see if you want to take action
00:34:44
you pay now here and the benefits come
00:34:47
later
00:34:47
over there universal problems give a
00:34:50
different possibility they affect
00:34:52
everybody but like air pollution soil
00:34:56
erosion flooding deforestation you can
00:34:59
solve them here for you and the benefits
00:35:03
come here soon the second way we have to
00:35:08
change is to quit imagining we're going
00:35:12
to get sustainability and start seeking
00:35:15
resilience it's moving from sustainable
00:35:18
development to survivable development
00:35:24
resilience is the ability to absorb a
00:35:26
shock and to keep giving essential
00:35:29
functions so for example in Fukushima
00:35:31
the resilient cities were rather quick
00:35:34
able to start giving it again food and
00:35:36
water to their people the ones that
00:35:40
which didn't do it we're not resilient
00:35:42
we say they were brittle
00:35:46
all we need to do in order to solve the
00:35:49
climate problem is to shift of the order
00:35:52
of one to two percent of the world's
00:35:55
employment and capital from dirty
00:35:58
sectors to clean sectors so we ask the
00:36:00
capitalist system can capitalism
00:36:02
actually help us shift the investments
00:36:05
flows and of course the answer is no
00:36:07
capitalism is made in order to allocate
00:36:09
capital to the most profitable project
00:36:11
not to the projects that our society
00:36:14
beneficial so capitalism will not solve
00:36:17
this problem couldn't then society
00:36:20
regulate capitalism in such a manner
00:36:23
that what is societally beneficial also
00:36:27
becomes the most profitable and answer
00:36:29
is of course yes in principle you know
00:36:31
society could agree that for instance
00:36:34
putting a price on climate gas emissions
00:36:37
a carbon price which will make it
00:36:39
profitable to invest in electric cars
00:36:41
rather than in fossil cars but of course
00:36:44
that requires Parliament's to pass this
00:36:47
regulation and Parliament's is composed
00:36:49
of politicians who have voters and
00:36:52
voters are also short term in the sense
00:36:55
that voters are not in favor of
00:36:57
increased gasoline prices or increased
00:36:59
power prices so the core problem is
00:37:02
short termism in the individual
00:37:06
reflected in democracy and reflected in
00:37:10
capitalism which are true systems of
00:37:12
governance that we have chosen to guide
00:37:14
our lives
00:37:15
that's the programmatic the programmatic
00:37:18
sits in you and I and everyone else is
00:37:21
the short-term nature of the human being
00:37:24
the first chart in the limits to growth
00:37:27
book in 1972 was called human
00:37:30
perspectives and it's caption read
00:37:33
although the perspectives of the world's
00:37:35
people vary in space and time every
00:37:38
human concern falls somewhere on the
00:37:41
space-time a graph
00:37:44
the majority of the world's people are
00:37:47
concerned with matters that affect only
00:37:49
family or friends over a short period of
00:37:51
time
00:37:53
others look further ahead in time or
00:37:56
over a larger area a city or a nation
00:37:59
only a very few people have a global
00:38:03
perspective that extends far into the
00:38:05
future
00:38:16
it is amazing we have no lived for 40
00:38:19
years with shock after shock after shock
00:38:21
after shock and in most cases even in
00:38:25
the financial crisis which was
00:38:27
mishandled as badly as any crisis will
00:38:31
be you know the system is surprisingly
00:38:34
resilient and you know them is
00:38:36
surprisingly resilient now especially
00:38:39
for the rich yeah you're for sure but I
00:38:41
mean there are people who still today
00:38:44
are totally devastated by the
00:38:47
consequences of the 2008 crisis from our
00:38:50
perspective yes it was resilient but
00:38:53
there are all billions of people who say
00:38:55
no it was not Brazilian it was a
00:38:56
disaster now let me see on the other
00:38:58
hand in your book I admired that you
00:39:01
start to raise some issues that people
00:39:03
don't talk about very often it's
00:39:05
democracy really an effective governance
00:39:08
form from coping with these problems I
00:39:11
don't say anything about my preference
00:39:14
for it or the morality of it but we can
00:39:17
just say objectively democratic nations
00:39:20
are not getting in control of co2
00:39:23
emissions they're not getting in control
00:39:25
of environmental damage from global
00:39:27
perspectives and so forth and so it's
00:39:31
important to raise those issues get
00:39:33
people to start thinking about you that
00:39:35
you did I thought that was fine did you
00:39:38
know that the Norwegian Parliament
00:39:41
unbelievably allocated you know 50
00:39:46
million dollars or something like this a
00:39:48
fairly high amount of money to build
00:39:51
this seed Walt
00:39:55
they found a cool hillside where there
00:39:59
is permafrost to keep this at minus 35
00:40:03
degrees centigrade for as long as they
00:40:06
can and they have been offered to all
00:40:08
nations to store whatever they want in
00:40:11
the form of genetic material and it's
00:40:13
interesting in my mind very
00:40:16
forward-looking I would not have thought
00:40:18
that the democracy would be willing to
00:40:20
do that type of thing which is for some
00:40:23
kind of undefined group some time for in
00:40:26
the future so luckily in some cases I am
00:40:29
wrong Donella Meadows passed away in
00:40:36
2001 but her memory is still inspiring
00:40:39
many people around the world among them
00:40:43
are the members of Cobb Hill farm in
00:40:45
Vermont
00:40:45
a project started by John Ella some
00:40:52
dreams come true
00:40:56
so what is your vision what do you
00:41:01
really want
00:41:11
what will make this a world that would
00:41:13
make you excited to get up in the
00:41:15
morning and go to work in it that would
00:41:19
make you feel wonderful about the
00:41:23
possible future for your children and
00:41:25
your grandchildren excited at what they
00:41:28
will have the opportunity to bring forth
00:41:31
what kind of worlds would that be
00:42:28
you