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Daily Telegraph columnist Allison
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Pearson is no stranger to outrage in
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fact it's her speciality with colum
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after column aimed at riling up the
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tempers of the paper conservative
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readers we shouldn't imply uh we
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shouldn't imply her motives actually
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which seem to be aim to rile up their
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readers um now though she's found
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herself at the center of a media storm
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after publishing this piece last week so
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it says my visit from police on
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Remembrance Sunday is living proof of
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our two tier justice system now in that
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column Pearson says she was told that
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the police had knocked at her door to
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investigate quote a non-crime hate
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incident now this does sound very odd a
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non-crime hate incident now that's a
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phrase she used again when describing
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what happened to talk TV's Julia Harley
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Brewer two young coppers and they said
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um uh we here about non-crime hate
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incident which I had which I have sort
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of vaguely heard about before and he
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said it related to a tweet of a year ago
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um which was stirring up racial hatred
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he said and I said oh that's very
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interesting what did it say the tweet
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that you think was stirring up racial
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hatred and he said I'm not allowed to
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tell you that and then I mean God forbid
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you should know what you're actually
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being accused of God forbid God forbid I
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should know exactly and then I said who
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is my accuser which is the next question
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and then he said we we're not allowed to
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tell you that either but it's not an
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accuser it's the victim so Pearson's
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story has been uh very very prominent in
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the media over the past few days the
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telegraph um ran two front pages
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featuring her tail with other right-wing
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Outlets chipping into an ex-owner Elon
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Musk got involved um posting this this
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needs to stop and he's quote tweeting
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Peter Sweden saying that police British
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police visited and questioned a
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journalist in her home because someone
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was offended by a year- Old Post on X um
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yes in Soviet Britain you get
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interrogated for posting on Twitter even
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prime minister Kia starm had a response
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to the story asked about Pearson's tweet
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at the G20 Summit in Brazil starm urged
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police to quote concentrate on what
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matters most to their communities
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potentially a smart response I think
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from him um but what had Pearson
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actually tweeted well late last week the
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guardian reported that it had spoken to
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the person who reported Pearson to the
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police and this is alleged to be the
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post in question so reposting a
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photograph of police officers standing
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with a group of people holding the flag
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of a mainstream Pakistani political
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party Pearson wrote How dare they at met
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police invited to pose with lovely
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peaceful British friends of Israel on
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Saturday police refused look at this lot
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smiling with the Jew haters now as you
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can see that the Tweet was seen over
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410,000 times before it was deleted by
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Pearson now that image didn't involve
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the Met police it was taken in
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Manchester and it had nothing to do with
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Israel's war on Gaza given it was taken
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in August
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2023 um if that is the tweet in question
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then it appears to be Allison Pearson
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just describing a random group of Asian
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people as du haters to her audience um
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the person who made the police report
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explained to the guardian why they'd
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done it saying this each time an
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influential person makes negative
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comments about people of color I as a
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person of color see an uptick in racist
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abuse towards me and the days after that
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tweet are no different so I suppose they
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actually the days after that tweet and
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no different the idea that this
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complainant
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themselves saw an uptick in racist abuse
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because of that tweet by Alison Pearson
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I can see why you know the connection
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doesn't seem completely obvious there
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although I can see the broad Point um it
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also turned out that Allison Pearson may
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have got some of the details of the
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police visit to her home and a year
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later um wrong now remember how she'd
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called it a quote non-crime haate
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incident well transcripts of body cam
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footage revealed by Essex police appear
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to tell a different story with the
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officer telling Pearson this it's gone
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down as an incident or offense of
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potentially inciting racial hatred
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online that would be the offense because
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of what's been alleged and the evidence
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that we've got I need to just ask you
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some questions so inciting racial hatred
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online that's not a non-crime that that
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would be a real crime um Essex police
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say Pearson is under investigation for
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an alleged breach of the 1986 public
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order act it's is not to say she has
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committed a crime but they were
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interviewing her not necessarily over a
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non-crime incident but there is a law
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that they were investigating whether she
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had broken it speaking to LBC Essex
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police commissioner Roger Hurst
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explained why he believed Pi's tweet was
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worthy of Investigation we can't go
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around ignoring crimes just because um
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it's politically sensitive and we
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perhaps need to just think about how our
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black and Asian communities are hearing
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this debate after all the 1986 public
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order act defines this as a
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crime and the maximum sentence the
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normal measure of of crime severity is
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on the maximum sentence the maximum
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sentence is 7 years that puts it up
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there well ahead of shoplifting it's
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fairly evident isn't it really that it's
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not been treated as a high priority it's
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taken a year uh to actually go and knock
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on the door but um nevertheless this
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this is is something which has to be
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dealt with by due process the force has
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also complain to press regulator IPO
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over um the factual accuracy of some of
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the reports on the case so they think
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that has been reported poorly the first
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thing is that if you want to talk about
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freedom of speech issues and how they
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impact British journalists I think the
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first place you've really got to look is
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the way in which counterterror laws have
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been wielded against journalists um
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regarding things they've said about or
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their coverage of the genocide in Gaza
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now one of the things that's really
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really important about the terrorism Act
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is that they do not there are not
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exemptions in the legislation for
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journalistic activity
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and how support for a prescribed Terror
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organization is defined is really really
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broadly now I know you know this Michael
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because this something that we've got to
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discuss a lot when it comes to our own
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coverage which is one of the the um
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really sticky parts of that legislation
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is that you can be uh you know arrested
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prosecuted for breaching the terrorism
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act if something that you say is
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interpreted as Reckless as to whether it
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may cause support in another person for
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a prescribed terrorist organization so
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it doesn't have to be someone like you
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or I saying oh I really think you should
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support you know Hamas or Hezbollah or
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the P it could be could someone
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interpret this thing that I'm saying
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which may include analysis of news
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events as being Reckless as to whether
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or not it would cause someone else to
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support those prescribed terrorist
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organizations now that is something uh
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you know that is a a bit of legislation
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which has been used in recent months
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journalists have been um detained
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they've been investigated it's unclear
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to me what the outcome is of of some of
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those things and I've not seen um
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mainstream newspapers you know LBC rally
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around uh a journalist saying oh look at
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this this is awful this is this is
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against Free Speech all right so that's
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the first thing which I'd really point
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out which is for me that is that is one
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of the the most egregious bits of police
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overreach that we seen in recent months
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so having said that let's get to Allison
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Pearson I'm going to separate two things
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one is what I think about
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um I guess in involving the police and
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the other is about what I think about
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Allison Pearson as journalist going to
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start with what I think about Allison
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Pearson as a journalist I think that
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Allison Pearson is everything that's
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wrong with British journalism and if she
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decided to take a nice quiet retirement
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I don't know take up chihuaha breeding
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or something I think that the industry
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would be a lot better for it I mean I
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think you look through um her opinion
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pieces for me I think that they
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demonstrate um a a degree of
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conspiracism a strong tone of
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conspiracism in my opinion uh I think
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that she has a real two-tier system of
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morality so if something involves uh
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people who are being accused of being
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far right or indeed um the the you know
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horrific events of this past summer and
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the racist rioting she goes out of her
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way to in my view minimize and humanize
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those people whereas when it comes to
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for instance transgender people uh LGBT
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activists Muslims people who are pro
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Palestine well you know it's all guns
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are blazing um I think that her work is
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awful um and I I think that part of the
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the reason why she got caught out with
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this tweet is because don't think that
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she she has particularly High
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journalistic values right you know it's
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like it fits the narrative I'm going to
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put it out now obviously everyone can
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get caught short of that uh at one time
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or another but I think that this
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particular tweet calling
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completely you know random uninvolved
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you know pakistanis Jew haters I think
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that's emblematic of of a a broader
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problem in her journalistic practice the
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next question is whether or not that's a
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matter for the police now I do think
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that a tweet like that demonstrates
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racism that's my opinion um I think that
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it shows the way in which allegations of
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anti-Semitism and Jew hatred have been
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used by sections of our press and our
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politics to smear Muslims and South
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Asians in particular it's you know a
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nice synonym for Muslim when you can't
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say that I think that that's wrong do do
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I think that that meets the
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threshold of a crime for me personally
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no right and and the reason why I say
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that the reason why I say that is
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because I think generally I want a high
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threshold for intervention uh when it
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comes to um speech acts now I I think
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that if I were a person
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photographed uh in that in that image
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and you could identify me um I would
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certainly consider suing her for liel I
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think that you might have a a civil case
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and might reach the Civil threshold but
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for for criminality maybe not for me um
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that's not a defense of Allison Pearson
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the person or Allison Pearson the
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journalist for me is about thinking
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about how you um where you set the
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threshold um on hate speech in a way
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which can facilitate
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um I guess the the maximum level of
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freedom of speech with the minimum
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amount of harm now those two things are
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obviously intention with each other and
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I I understand that people might reach
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different conclusions but for me that's
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not it I pretty much agree with
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everything you said there Ash so we're
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not going to have a debate on this one
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but um I just been looking up um ASA win
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Stanley you know he his home getting
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raided um which I you know I think was
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an outrage barely anyone covered it we
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covered it on this on this show so if
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you Google us and it you can't find it
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but if you watch our show from that day
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you you'll see that we discussed it um
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but yeah it's it's the national covered
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it the Morning Star but the guardian the
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BBC sort of no no one mentioned that and
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there's been a number of of occasions
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like this so it does definitely seem
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sort of like the outrage is is
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disproportionate when it comes to
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Allison Pearson compared to other um
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cases of journalists getting the police
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knocking on their door um but I do agree
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with you that I I don't think this
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should meet the threshold and also it
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does seem like
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a big error for the police you know
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there is a crisis of confidence in the
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police at the moment from pretty much
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all sides right um and especially there
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was a narrative building up on the right
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that the police um clamp down on on on
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on right wings and people tweeting
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offensive stuff and don't deal with
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actual crime and it is getting to a
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point now where lots of people have had
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an experience I haven't personally but
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sort of I see on Twitter people I know
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and trust sort of saying you know their
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their phone got stolen they can tell the
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cops where it is because they've got it
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on find my phone they can sort of tell
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them the address and then the police say
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well sorry there's nothing we can do
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about that and they say we we don't we
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don't go to address as if they're on
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Estates and people with bikes as well so
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bikes getting Nick they say oh we can't
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look through the whole CCTV uh because
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we don't have time and people do look at
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the police and say why the hell are they
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knocking on the door of a Daily
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Telegraph comment journalist for an
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offensive and I agree I think it's a
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racist tweet why are they doing that
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when they can't investigate actual well
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I say actual what what what most people
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think of as a sort of an actual physical
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crime let's say I mean look I think a
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couple of things the first thing is that
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I don't necessarily think that it should
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been a matter it should have been a
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matter for the police but if the
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telegraph was a serious newspaper I
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think they should have sacked her right
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I think they should have sacked her
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because if you if you hire someone as a
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journalist I think that they have to
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have you know a basic commitment to
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telling the truth all right now
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obviously that's going to be subject to
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interpretation but where facts are
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indisputable and a journalist has has
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you know I I think quite egregiously
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departed from those facts um in a way
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which I think is in this in this case
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very racist I think I think it's fine to
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say all right that passes the threshold
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I think you should be sacked especially
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if they haven't apologized for it now
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you have said yourself the tweet's been
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taken down I don't know whether she's
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apologized for this um but I think an
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apology would be the the absolute
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minimum for keeping your job there um
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you know similarly uh you know I've had
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my own experience
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with shall we say um famous journalists
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being egregiously racist and indeed
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keeping their colum writing position at
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the telegraph when that happened um I
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don't I I don't take that paper
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particularly seriously although I should
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correct myself I think it was the Sunday
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Telegraph um I don't take that paper
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seriously I don't think they take racism
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seriously and I think that they'll go as
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far as they can in in protecting their
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journalists no matter how badly they
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behave that's my take on them as an
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institution from from at least two
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instances that I can think of but I
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think when it comes to this thing about
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um the police like I've always really
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struggled um personally on on when to
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involve the police with some of the
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things that I experienced there has been
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one occasion where I've made a report to
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the police and that's when someone
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messaged me on on Instagram to say I'm
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going to come around to your house and
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and cut off your head
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um and I didn't I didn't chase it up
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maybe I should have chased it up maybe I
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should have like pushed far and tried to
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get a conviction but I think that
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ultimately when it got to the point they
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were like hey do you want to come in for
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like a really full interview I was just
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a bit like I don't know how much I want
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this hanging over my life anymore but
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that's just a completely random and
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arbitrary example right it's like you
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get so much of it and that ranges all
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the way from like you politically
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disagree with me and you're saying that
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a particularly aggressive way right
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don't I'm not going to call the police
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over that to things which are just
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outright lies so you know a couple of
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weekends just gone someone accused me of
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being a holocaust denier um he he didn't
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he said that I think that your Tweet is
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a kin to Holocaust denial said that
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publicly but dm'd me to say oh being a
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holocaust Den not a good look and I was
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like I will sue you do you
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understand I'm not around I will
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sue you um and there's that where I'm
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like this lie feels so egregious I'm
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going to take action on it and then
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there's all this other stuff where it's
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like you know like it's easy when
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someone someone calls you a Packy do you
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know what I mean like that's easy right
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it's easy when someone says I'm going to
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chop your head off that's easy but when
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you've got just like this I don't know
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how to phrase it but it's like
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contextualizing you in such a way and
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always lumping you in with like child
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sex abusers or or violent anti-sites or
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jihadists or whatever and they're
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putting your person in that context
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again and again and again it almost
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doesn't seem right to me that that's
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that's just fine that there isn't a sort
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of societal sanction for it and I can
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understand that you sort of go well that
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that does breach the you my personal
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threshold of of you know criminality
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because this is having a real impact on
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me like I can see how people get there I
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don't think that that's where the law
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should be set but I can understand why
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people turn to it when the other
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institutions aren't operate operating as
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they should I realize I'm rambling a bit
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and and maybe it wasn't right to go like
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oh this is how I try and think about it
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or this is how I try and deal with it
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but I suppose when I see something like
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that I can understand why someone made
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that report I just don't think that
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that's the threshold the law should be
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set at no I mean I didn't find that
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rambling at all I thought that was
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really really interesting and I always
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have so much time to hear about your
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experience online because I just know
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it's a thousand times worse sometimes
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I'm mildly irritated on X whereas you're
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getting vile racist misogynist abuse and
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people telling you they're going to cut
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your head off right so it's it's just a
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million miles from I think what the vast
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majority of people experience so it's
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it's very I think important and useful
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for you to speak publicly about that
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because I suppose I do have a tendency
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to think like why are the police
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occupying themselves with this let
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people say on Twitter and I think
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you have you know very expressly
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articulated how it's actually a little
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bit more complicated than that
