Dave Snowden and friends - Organizational Design - Part 3

00:52:32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzkG0EBrEhY

Ringkasan

TLDRThe discussion delves into the concept of leadership seen as an emergent property, interlinked with followership in a dynamic process. Traditionally perceived as an individual-centric role, leadership here is proposed as a social practice defined by storytelling and adaptability in different contexts. The conversation critiques conventional hierarchical structures, advocating for fluid roles that adapt to particular situations within organizations. It also criticizes the homogeneity driven by big consultancies that tend to hinder genuine change by promoting one-size-fits-all models, ignoring the unique needs of each organization. The participants suggest that meaningful leadership involves understanding the organization's informal networks, learning from adaptive military strategies, and focusing on substantial decision-making processes that foster creativity and innovation. Challenges in organizational design and the need for effective transition strategies are also highlighted, emphasizing that enduring change requires accommodating tensions and constraints within systems.

Takeaways

  • 🔄 Leadership can emerge from the dynamics between leading and following roles.
  • 🤝 Leadership as a social practice involves teamwork and storytelling.
  • ⚖️ Hierarchy should provide adaptability and enable fluid roles.
  • 🕸️ Informal networks support sustainable organizational structures.
  • 📈 Focus on meaningful decision-making processes.
  • 🔍 Critique of homogenized structures promoted by consultancies.
  • 🎭 Tension can enhance creativity and innovation within organizations.
  • 🔧 Effective transition strategies are crucial for lasting organizational change.
  • 🌀 Adaptive capacity in leadership involves recognizing context-specific needs.
  • ❓ Encourage leaders to discern between necessary and unnecessary alignments.

Garis waktu

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The discussion opens with the idea of leadership as an emergent property from the interplay between leading and following, challenging the traditional notion of leadership as an individual-centric concept. It proposes leadership as a social practice, highlighting the influence of hierarchy and the role of storytelling in leadership development.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    The conversation shifts to the necessity of political leadership when critical decisions are required, pointing out the drawbacks of leaders who prioritize popularity over hard choices. It emphasizes organizational fluidity in leadership roles, related to military models and the importance of dynamic roles over static capabilities.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Discussion on fluid organizational structures explores how they can adapt to dynamic roles, contrasting with static existing hierarchies. The focus is on enabling organizational fluidity, challenging rigid structures, and dealing with traditional leadership mindsets resistant to change.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    There is critique of OD (Organizational Development) and its limitations rooted in cybernetic models. The argument is for managing constraints rather than designing endpoints because complexity requires flexibility, with a comparison to physics where theory precedes practice.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    The dialogue suggests using informal networks to form formal structures for sustainability, emphasizing the role of constraints in fostering innovation. The natural rebellion against hierarchies is seen as beneficial for creativity and adaptability.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Concepts of localized hierarchical control and its necessity in decision-making boast the organization’s adaptability. The discussion also covers how distributed leadership can improve organizational responsiveness without losing the command structure important during crises.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Integration of distributed decision-making within organizations is proposed as a solution for efficient, adaptive processes. The importance of preserving decision-making in the right context is underscored, warning against disempowering leaders who should guide rather than relinquish their duties.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The problem with hierarchy in stifling innovation compared with the flexibility in cross-functional teams is highlighted. The roles of management in decision-making are scrutinized, stressing the significance of adopting the right decision-making processes.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    The conversation critiques the role of big consulting firms in creating homogeneity in organizational design, arguing for the critical questioning of client needs over wants. It emphasizes meeting systems where they are and fostering decision-making that supports change.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:52:32

    The session concludes with an exploration of how to create scalable, sustainable change without overwhelming organizations. This includes balancing the scope of change to ensure it impacts positively while respecting the complexity within organizational structures.

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Peta Pikiran

Video Tanya Jawab

  • What is leadership considered in the video?

    Leadership is seen as a dynamic interplay between leading and following, suggesting that it emerges from interactions rather than residing in an individual.

  • How does the video suggest leadership should be developed?

    It suggests that effective leadership can emerge from teamwork, social practice, and storytelling, emphasizing adaptability and context-driven leadership roles.

  • How does the concept of tension relate to leadership?

    Tension between roles can drive innovation and creativity, as opposed to eliminating tension which can hinder adaptability and decision-making.

  • What role do informal networks play in organizational design?

    Informal networks can create sustainable structures with low energy costs and can help formalize organization structures more naturally.

  • How should hierarchy function according to the video?

    Hierarchy should allow fluidity and adaptability, forming around those with the most relevant context to decision-making and not be merely bureaucratic.

  • What critique is given about consultancies in the video?

    Consultancies may perpetuate problems by homogenizing organizational structures based on existing patterns rather than addressing unique needs.

  • What is said about decision-making in leadership?

    The discussion emphasizes the need for leaders to focus on meaningful decisions and avoid unnecessary alignment that might stifle innovation.

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Gulir Otomatis:
  • 00:00:01
    and welcome everyone back after a series
  • 00:00:05
    of would have been very entertaining
  • 00:00:07
    conversations and I think where we left
  • 00:00:10
    off last time was Sami was talking about
  • 00:00:14
    where the leaders create followers or
  • 00:00:16
    whether it's the other way around so he
  • 00:00:19
    might just hand back to Sonia to kick
  • 00:00:20
    off today yeah thanks Andrew right it's
  • 00:00:25
    um
  • 00:00:26
    we've been having a pretty lively
  • 00:00:28
    conversation on this on Twitter as well
  • 00:00:33
    I'm not entirely sure that I've gotten
  • 00:00:36
    on today but I'm definitely curious you
  • 00:00:38
    know so I think last time I also said
  • 00:00:41
    that some of this comes from the work of
  • 00:00:43
    Professor Mary o bean and I think what
  • 00:00:47
    what really struck me the first time I
  • 00:00:49
    read some of those articles was how she
  • 00:00:51
    talks about leadership as an emergent
  • 00:00:55
    property so it's almost leadership
  • 00:00:57
    emerges from the complex interplay or
  • 00:01:01
    the dynamic between leading and
  • 00:01:04
    following which are two you know
  • 00:01:06
    interrelated processes and that
  • 00:01:08
    sometimes you know it might take the
  • 00:01:11
    form of you know go find be situated in
  • 00:01:15
    an individual but not always and I find
  • 00:01:18
    that entire concept very interesting you
  • 00:01:20
    know so because we've been so almost
  • 00:01:23
    habituated into seeing leadership as
  • 00:01:26
    something that is seated in an in an
  • 00:01:28
    individual and it's there's certain
  • 00:01:30
    capacities and certain competencies that
  • 00:01:32
    you need to develop and everybody
  • 00:01:35
    leaders or only some people you know
  • 00:01:37
    we've got all these very individual
  • 00:01:41
    based discourses around it and if you
  • 00:01:43
    see it as something that is an emergent
  • 00:01:46
    process I think it completely reframes
  • 00:01:49
    the conversation
  • 00:01:55
    yeah I mean you know I've been trying to
  • 00:02:03
    like frame some of the stuff that I do
  • 00:02:04
    with leaders as leadership is a form of
  • 00:02:08
    social practice and so like the first
  • 00:02:10
    step towards kind of like in my mind at
  • 00:02:14
    least of breaking down some of the like
  • 00:02:17
    negative aspects of hierarchy but not
  • 00:02:20
    just make hierarchy bad but to break
  • 00:02:23
    down from the negative aspects of
  • 00:02:24
    hierarchy is to say leadership is
  • 00:02:28
    probably not an innate intrinsic part of
  • 00:02:32
    like something you were born with it's
  • 00:02:34
    something you learn to do and therefore
  • 00:02:36
    people who have opportunities to learn
  • 00:02:38
    these types of behaviors are the people
  • 00:02:40
    who end up in these roles right and so
  • 00:02:43
    it's more like a social practice it's
  • 00:02:45
    something that you practice with other
  • 00:02:46
    people and I think a lot of like the the
  • 00:02:51
    narratives and the storytelling that are
  • 00:02:55
    required to learn in order to perform
  • 00:02:58
    the activities of leadership are
  • 00:03:01
    developed by hearing other people tell
  • 00:03:04
    those stories and having opportunity to
  • 00:03:06
    tell those stories and having your
  • 00:03:07
    stories kind of critiqued so that you
  • 00:03:10
    learn to tell the right kinds of stories
  • 00:03:12
    for longer time spans then that
  • 00:03:16
    leadership requires so I don't know I
  • 00:03:19
    mean I do think it's a really
  • 00:03:20
    interesting question about how you how
  • 00:03:27
    do you develop this skill in people and
  • 00:03:32
    how do you kind of bridge the different
  • 00:03:35
    levels inside of an organization with
  • 00:03:37
    different forms of leadership in order
  • 00:03:39
    to kind of knit knit knit the
  • 00:03:41
    organization together effectively so I
  • 00:03:43
    don't know that's my first thoughts for
  • 00:03:45
    the day nothing about foresight you know
  • 00:03:59
    I was basically misunderstood it turned
  • 00:04:01
    out it was he did that but of course 15
  • 00:04:03
    years ago and listened to a colleague of
  • 00:04:06
    mine teach and was forming his views of
  • 00:04:08
    based on that but never mind but the
  • 00:04:12
    emergence pandal was was quite an
  • 00:04:14
    interesting idea because there is a
  • 00:04:15
    tendency in complexity you depress it
  • 00:04:17
    too fast well yeah if in doubt blame it
  • 00:04:21
    on emergence right I think one of the
  • 00:04:23
    things you see about stable leadership
  • 00:04:25
    models is their role based job and that
  • 00:04:28
    would actually go back to hunter
  • 00:04:30
    community hunter-gatherer type models
  • 00:04:32
    that there are different roles that you
  • 00:04:33
    play within in that goes back to the
  • 00:04:37
    Dunbar thing we talked about and they
  • 00:04:39
    won so there are different roles that
  • 00:04:40
    get played and fluidity between roles is
  • 00:04:44
    more important than individual
  • 00:04:46
    capability per se right so I think if
  • 00:04:49
    you look at military environments is
  • 00:04:51
    heavily role based now yes within that
  • 00:04:55
    you can have people who are more or less
  • 00:04:56
    gifted and when things go badly wrong so
  • 00:05:00
    this is the poor idea the idea that
  • 00:05:04
    decisions only become decisions where
  • 00:05:06
    every team will not work
  • 00:05:07
    oh no such thing as a decision until
  • 00:05:10
    it's it's not a process yeah yes I think
  • 00:05:13
    what we're seeing at the moment is there
  • 00:05:16
    is a time when you actually need
  • 00:05:17
    political leadership yeah most of the
  • 00:05:20
    time it doesn't matter but then every
  • 00:05:23
    now and then it matters hugely which is
  • 00:05:25
    why we got major problems in the UK the
  • 00:05:27
    us-brazil yeah because the leadership
  • 00:05:31
    opulence leaders thought leadership
  • 00:05:33
    style can't make hard decisions and
  • 00:05:36
    can't ask people to sacrifice because
  • 00:05:39
    their whole principle has been I'm the
  • 00:05:42
    leader follow me you know it will be you
  • 00:05:44
    know land overflowing with milk and
  • 00:05:46
    honey right so I think again the context
  • 00:05:49
    word comes in so I think in general
  • 00:05:51
    individuals don't matter until they do
  • 00:05:53
    matter then they matter hugely yeah and
  • 00:05:57
    you need to have organizational
  • 00:06:00
    structures which allow fluidity if who
  • 00:06:02
    occupies those roles so it's the old
  • 00:06:05
    military thing it takes two years of war
  • 00:06:07
    for the peacetime generals to die out so
  • 00:06:09
    the Watertown generals can come through
  • 00:06:11
    it's it's the same sort of principle
  • 00:06:14
    called context context matters I think
  • 00:06:19
    this this idea of fluid
  • 00:06:21
    okk structures I think is interesting
  • 00:06:23
    Dave because they it's you know just
  • 00:06:27
    just this morning I spent quite a bit of
  • 00:06:29
    time on on a client call and it seems to
  • 00:06:33
    be one of the core questions that the OD
  • 00:06:37
    community is asking right now is how do
  • 00:06:39
    we create these fluid structures you
  • 00:06:42
    know and because I think some of the
  • 00:06:45
    it's called them existing ideas of
  • 00:06:48
    leadership and the the current forms of
  • 00:06:51
    power in organizations have very much
  • 00:06:54
    related status remuneration all of these
  • 00:06:58
    things to those roles so now if you want
  • 00:07:01
    the roles to be fluid you know you you
  • 00:07:03
    almost need everything else in the
  • 00:07:06
    organization to be fluid as well and
  • 00:07:08
    then you run into you know I remember I
  • 00:07:10
    think Nigel the beginning of last time
  • 00:07:12
    you asked the question of you know how
  • 00:07:14
    do you deal with these rigid leaders
  • 00:07:16
    that won't you know I think that was
  • 00:07:17
    part of your question and you kind of
  • 00:07:19
    come full circle because the moment they
  • 00:07:21
    think you realize what this means the
  • 00:07:24
    old guard kind of it almost rigid the
  • 00:07:27
    rigidify zhing you you can't get the new
  • 00:07:30
    ideas in so it feels like you know we've
  • 00:07:33
    almost circled back to your first
  • 00:07:35
    question last last time Nigel so how do
  • 00:07:40
    we overcome this is really interesting
  • 00:07:42
    so you put me on the spot to stew so
  • 00:07:46
    whole organizational design problems now
  • 00:07:48
    I mean you've got I've got to fill it
  • 00:07:57
    with content so um I was writing down
  • 00:08:00
    some of the notes because you know when
  • 00:08:02
    we talked about leadership as an
  • 00:08:04
    emergent process I wouldn't it is it a
  • 00:08:06
    property rather than the process don't
  • 00:08:09
    know but I'm also reading some of the
  • 00:08:12
    stuff that John Turner professor Turner
  • 00:08:14
    and I wrote about boundary spanning and
  • 00:08:16
    about multi-team systems because I think
  • 00:08:19
    this is where it's starting to leaders I
  • 00:08:21
    mean some of what we talked about about
  • 00:08:23
    self-organizing organizations and
  • 00:08:25
    fluidity comes from sort of crew concept
  • 00:08:27
    from the US Navy or that type of area
  • 00:08:31
    where we have a group of people that
  • 00:08:33
    self form into so
  • 00:08:35
    organizing or self-forming teams
  • 00:08:37
    depending on the demand of the work the
  • 00:08:39
    needed activity and then they sort of
  • 00:08:43
    dissolve and reform the next time
  • 00:08:44
    there's some activity to do and it's
  • 00:08:46
    about having the right people for the
  • 00:08:48
    right job now clearly in a reasonably
  • 00:08:52
    large organization having leadership
  • 00:08:54
    sort of dissolve and reform daily isn't
  • 00:08:56
    going to be practical probably then
  • 00:08:59
    maybe people would disagree but some of
  • 00:09:01
    the notes that I'm looking at some of
  • 00:09:03
    the notes I've written previously and we
  • 00:09:05
    talked about boundary spanning because
  • 00:09:07
    most leadership models are that leader
  • 00:09:09
    follower dyad model which is what we
  • 00:09:12
    were talking about very beginning this
  • 00:09:14
    conversation and when we get into sort
  • 00:09:17
    of functional leadership we sort of get
  • 00:09:19
    into that sort of lead a team
  • 00:09:21
    relationship where we review the members
  • 00:09:24
    of a team as collective leadership for
  • 00:09:27
    the organization and this gets into the
  • 00:09:30
    whole distributed leadership
  • 00:09:31
    conversation and starts to look at how
  • 00:09:33
    we build multi team systems and how we
  • 00:09:35
    repurpose those management roles
  • 00:09:38
    remember their core leader roles in the
  • 00:09:40
    companies but they're really management
  • 00:09:42
    roles we repurpose those into functional
  • 00:09:44
    leadership and then they become the glue
  • 00:09:47
    between these multi teams sort of
  • 00:09:49
    autonomous systems helping to foster the
  • 00:09:53
    right relationships between the multiple
  • 00:09:55
    teams ensuring we've got focus on distil
  • 00:09:57
    goals and various other things and
  • 00:10:00
    Dave's going to jump in though I was
  • 00:10:02
    going to say you need to separate two
  • 00:10:04
    things one is the problem with OD which
  • 00:10:06
    is major yeah OD is just basically in a
  • 00:10:10
    very bad place and I repeat what I said
  • 00:10:13
    ages ago that they have a Stockholm
  • 00:10:14
    Syndrome relationship with the CEO the
  • 00:10:18
    CEO doesn't realize he's been held
  • 00:10:19
    captured by terrorists and he doesn't
  • 00:10:21
    have the sense to get away from it or
  • 00:10:23
    she doesn't have the sense to get away
  • 00:10:24
    from it and the second is the issue
  • 00:10:26
    about leadership and I think the bottom
  • 00:10:28
    with OD and it's been a problem of for a
  • 00:10:32
    year the cybernetics approach which came
  • 00:10:36
    after scientific management and I still
  • 00:10:38
    think need to keep emphasizing that
  • 00:10:40
    complexity is not opposed to Taylorism
  • 00:10:43
    complexity as opposed to cybernetics and
  • 00:10:46
    cybernetics was a Hegelian ante
  • 00:10:49
    is to Taylorism but that's another
  • 00:10:51
    matter I'll leave that for Jay to pick
  • 00:10:53
    up right I think the issue is it's there
  • 00:10:58
    they're focused on designing in the
  • 00:10:59
    endpoint now you can't do that in a
  • 00:11:01
    complex system so you can't design a
  • 00:11:02
    fluid system yep can do is you can
  • 00:11:05
    manage the constraints so actually the
  • 00:11:08
    current hierarchy is a constraint and
  • 00:11:11
    the ability to repel against the
  • 00:11:14
    hierarchy is actually quite important
  • 00:11:16
    because without a hierarchy there
  • 00:11:18
    wouldn't be maverick in friction in the
  • 00:11:20
    system and it's the other thing some of
  • 00:11:22
    the greatest are pros like I we used to
  • 00:11:24
    be able to watch all right where people
  • 00:11:27
    found clever ways around the sensor and
  • 00:11:30
    certainly East German opera an East
  • 00:11:32
    German theater was just incredible
  • 00:11:34
    during the crackdown of the Stasi
  • 00:11:35
    because the creativity for you know it
  • 00:11:38
    came out because of the constraint yeah
  • 00:11:40
    so rebelling against the hierarchy is
  • 00:11:43
    one thing I think the other thing is the
  • 00:11:44
    informal networks and if I go back to
  • 00:11:47
    the first art this major article I wrote
  • 00:11:50
    which was the first real version of
  • 00:11:51
    cannabic
  • 00:11:52
    it basically said you need to stimulate
  • 00:11:55
    a map your informal networks and allow
  • 00:11:57
    the formal organization to form from
  • 00:12:00
    informal stable structures so that
  • 00:12:03
    rather than trying to design it right so
  • 00:12:06
    I think the manipulation of constraints
  • 00:12:08
    is the most important thing and because
  • 00:12:11
    hierarchy is such an important
  • 00:12:13
    constraint and in a crisis will be
  • 00:12:14
    critical yeah it's no coincidence in a
  • 00:12:18
    crisis you know chain of command becomes
  • 00:12:20
    vital so you're always going to have a
  • 00:12:22
    hierarchy but the issue is where has he
  • 00:12:24
    got fluidity where has it got rebellion
  • 00:12:26
    where can you modify what can you make
  • 00:12:28
    it's like a miracle
  • 00:12:30
    waking rent rolls around it so I think
  • 00:12:32
    oh do you designing the wrong thing and
  • 00:12:35
    this is the spirit of had with Mary a
  • 00:12:36
    bit as well in that I think because
  • 00:12:39
    she's taking an empirical approach so
  • 00:12:41
    she's trying to derive a complexity
  • 00:12:43
    theory of leadership from cases and I
  • 00:12:46
    don't think you can do that I think it
  • 00:12:49
    complexity a theory of leadership has to
  • 00:12:51
    come from the theory and then the case
  • 00:12:53
    is test your methods associated with the
  • 00:12:55
    theory so to my own views is much more
  • 00:12:58
    like physics in physics you devise
  • 00:13:00
    theory then you see if it works in
  • 00:13:01
    practice you
  • 00:13:03
    don't try and derive theory from
  • 00:13:04
    practice oh if you haven't since post
  • 00:13:07
    Newton period and we need to start
  • 00:13:08
    thinking about that differently I think
  • 00:13:12
    I waiting for James to come back because
  • 00:13:17
    everything is everything Dave is talking
  • 00:13:19
    about is pushing me back to distributed
  • 00:13:22
    leadership models now we have good ideas
  • 00:13:25
    and thoughts of course could I've done
  • 00:13:26
    some work on this but Jeb you've got a
  • 00:13:29
    lot deeper understanding of this than I
  • 00:13:31
    have I mean I have I have some thoughts
  • 00:13:34
    that I don't know if there were deeper
  • 00:13:36
    shallower than yours I have thoughts on
  • 00:13:39
    it I think one of the things that I've
  • 00:13:41
    been thinking a lot recently is kind of
  • 00:13:43
    like organizational design is a form of
  • 00:13:46
    adaptive capacity like the ability for
  • 00:13:49
    an organization to adapt to a challenge
  • 00:13:51
    and adaptive capacity at least in kind
  • 00:13:54
    of resilience engineering kind of theory
  • 00:13:56
    is kind of like a budget and when you
  • 00:13:59
    spend your budget you basically lock up
  • 00:14:02
    your adaptivity you can't like anymore
  • 00:14:05
    you can think of it like getting scared
  • 00:14:07
    and freezing because you should get your
  • 00:14:09
    overly frightened by something right
  • 00:14:10
    like the organization kind of stops
  • 00:14:12
    functioning so I liked it like one of
  • 00:14:15
    the ways I kind of like to think through
  • 00:14:17
    that is that when you have low low
  • 00:14:20
    environmental pressure so we're talking
  • 00:14:22
    inside the or guys are the
  • 00:14:24
    organization's relationship to its
  • 00:14:26
    environment right
  • 00:14:26
    low low environmental pressure you can
  • 00:14:30
    actually flatten the work out quite
  • 00:14:32
    quite a bit because you just let the
  • 00:14:35
    actual distributed nature of the
  • 00:14:38
    organization adapt to the subtle
  • 00:14:41
    variations in the marketplace you don't
  • 00:14:42
    need to actually organize large groups
  • 00:14:45
    of the organization to go in a
  • 00:14:47
    particular direction because it's you
  • 00:14:49
    know stable relationship with an
  • 00:14:51
    environment let's just adapt to the
  • 00:14:52
    small changes that are happening we can
  • 00:14:53
    flatten the work out as we kind of bring
  • 00:14:57
    up ramp up the environmental pressure
  • 00:14:59
    that in other words the change in the
  • 00:15:01
    environment or the marketplace is coming
  • 00:15:03
    up then I I like to think that the way
  • 00:15:05
    that you get this to work is to replace
  • 00:15:08
    to have an evolution the flatness into
  • 00:15:11
    what it's called header our key as
  • 00:15:13
    opposed to hierarchy and header our key
  • 00:15:15
    is just keeping
  • 00:15:16
    the flavor of a hierarchy someone's in
  • 00:15:19
    charge of things but who is in charge is
  • 00:15:23
    very very contextually determined
  • 00:15:27
    because the hierarchy forms around the
  • 00:15:30
    node that has the greatest relationship
  • 00:15:32
    to the environmental change that's
  • 00:15:34
    happening right now right so what you're
  • 00:15:37
    getting there is less this flatness and
  • 00:15:39
    more like localized pickiness and one of
  • 00:15:43
    the things to point out there really
  • 00:15:44
    quickly and that they've pointed at it
  • 00:15:46
    and it'll be important for the next one
  • 00:15:48
    right is that actual hierarchy is
  • 00:15:52
    important when decisioning needs to
  • 00:15:55
    proceed at a certain pace and it's a
  • 00:15:58
    back pressure effect I think and what I
  • 00:16:01
    mean by a back pressure effect is
  • 00:16:02
    knowing that if we don't make a decision
  • 00:16:05
    the boss is going to make a decision
  • 00:16:07
    sometimes will motivate us to actually
  • 00:16:09
    you know make a decision as opposed to
  • 00:16:12
    filibustering our way through the next
  • 00:16:14
    six years of our lives
  • 00:16:15
    right so somebody's about to come down
  • 00:16:17
    and be like we're gonna do this then
  • 00:16:20
    maybe more decisions start being made
  • 00:16:22
    right and I think like that to me is the
  • 00:16:25
    difference between kind of like these
  • 00:16:26
    very flat like halong based
  • 00:16:30
    organizational structures which every
  • 00:16:33
    time I run into them are just a cesspool
  • 00:16:37
    of indecision and noise and the
  • 00:16:43
    hierarchies are kind of the peak eNOS
  • 00:16:45
    there is to kind of start making those
  • 00:16:47
    decisions now when you get extreme
  • 00:16:50
    environmental change like what we just
  • 00:16:52
    saw you know the the my favorite story
  • 00:16:58
    about what we went through right
  • 00:16:59
    recently was Dave telling you the story
  • 00:17:01
    about the bird flew in in Singapore and
  • 00:17:04
    the way that leadership there made
  • 00:17:07
    explicit radical decisions during the
  • 00:17:09
    blue bird flew in order to stabilize the
  • 00:17:12
    organization the city the state in order
  • 00:17:16
    to allow a distributed decision-making
  • 00:17:19
    network to emerge and explore other
  • 00:17:22
    options for getting us out of the fact
  • 00:17:23
    that we can't leave our houses anymore
  • 00:17:25
    right so that that is the
  • 00:17:28
    moment at which I think that the the
  • 00:17:32
    formal hierarchy as opposed to the
  • 00:17:34
    informal header are key becomes
  • 00:17:36
    incredibly valuable because it is the it
  • 00:17:40
    is the way in which we do not have the
  • 00:17:42
    time and luxury to have extended
  • 00:17:46
    conversations about this and the radical
  • 00:17:50
    nature of the environmental change means
  • 00:17:52
    that we probably actually can't make a
  • 00:17:55
    huge amount of meaningful decisions
  • 00:17:57
    right now anyway because we don't know
  • 00:17:59
    necessarily what this environmental
  • 00:18:00
    change means but we have to stabilize
  • 00:18:02
    the system very quickly and that's what
  • 00:18:05
    that real true command and control
  • 00:18:08
    hierarchy ends up being valuable for and
  • 00:18:11
    so the trick to me the fluidity of an
  • 00:18:13
    organization is more about being look
  • 00:18:15
    like flattened locally peak and then
  • 00:18:19
    snap into into command and control
  • 00:18:22
    hierarchies and know how to like release
  • 00:18:26
    them and go back to those other forms as
  • 00:18:28
    well so it's like a way of the fluidity
  • 00:18:30
    is less about the arrangement of the
  • 00:18:32
    teams and the the geekiness
  • 00:18:34
    of the hierarchies if that makes any
  • 00:18:36
    sense so I know that's my thoughts on
  • 00:18:39
    that because those horizontal structures
  • 00:18:53
    which are highly rule-based yeah and
  • 00:18:55
    that rewarding people who are good at
  • 00:18:57
    rule compliance so they've become highly
  • 00:18:59
    bureaucratized an innovation ironically
  • 00:19:02
    gets siphoned out to the system yeah and
  • 00:19:05
    I mean anybody you've looked at the
  • 00:19:06
    halacha see could have told them that up
  • 00:19:08
    front but they're now realizing it right
  • 00:19:10
    so it basically makes it impossible to
  • 00:19:12
    have decisions it's in trays differences
  • 00:19:14
    it goes down the route I think the other
  • 00:19:16
    issue is this and I'll come back to that
  • 00:19:19
    in a second I think the other issue is
  • 00:19:21
    the question of you get this desire for
  • 00:19:24
    alignment which is actually quite
  • 00:19:27
    dangerous so this comes back to the boss
  • 00:19:28
    so when I was a general manager I
  • 00:19:30
    understand that policy which HR
  • 00:19:32
    thoroughly objected to but I was the
  • 00:19:34
    most profitable business unit in the
  • 00:19:35
    company so I had power right
  • 00:19:38
    and I targeted my salespeople
  • 00:19:40
    differently from
  • 00:19:41
    production people so sales were targeted
  • 00:19:44
    on orders and production were targeted
  • 00:19:46
    on profit and sales couldn't sell in
  • 00:19:49
    this production signed it off
  • 00:19:51
    and they all got totally pissed off and
  • 00:19:54
    they kept demand in that outline now
  • 00:19:55
    said why because production now if you
  • 00:19:58
    don't make sales they're going to be out
  • 00:19:59
    of a job
  • 00:20:01
    so that's attention and you know if you
  • 00:20:03
    try and sell us down the bloody river
  • 00:20:05
    production though they can't deliver it
  • 00:20:07
    so they'll hold off and they say what
  • 00:20:09
    happens when we disagree I said what if
  • 00:20:10
    you really want you can come and see me
  • 00:20:12
    and I said if you come and see me I'll
  • 00:20:15
    adopt winnie-the-pooh strategy with owl
  • 00:20:17
    and when they look confused
  • 00:20:18
    I left them to go bring that up but
  • 00:20:21
    those of you didn't have a proper
  • 00:20:23
    childhood right he basically said yes
  • 00:20:25
    and they were alternately or around them
  • 00:20:26
    because he couldn't be bothered to
  • 00:20:28
    listen and that was a deliberate
  • 00:20:30
    creation of tension within the system
  • 00:20:32
    right and I think this is the other big
  • 00:20:33
    problem we got with OD because they've
  • 00:20:35
    taken this cybernetics model yeah and I
  • 00:20:38
    think this is the real problem it's a
  • 00:20:39
    cybernetics model it's not a natural
  • 00:20:41
    model they've been trying to eliminate
  • 00:20:43
    tension in the system as a function of
  • 00:20:45
    leadership development and
  • 00:20:46
    organizational design and from an
  • 00:20:48
    ecological point of view without tension
  • 00:20:51
    that's deeply problematic it's also
  • 00:20:53
    discovery I'm going to come back to the
  • 00:20:55
    reason I slightly sunburned at the
  • 00:20:57
    moment with two doctor friends yeah we
  • 00:21:00
    think they'll in walking in one Valley
  • 00:21:02
    in the Brecon Beacons now for six weeks
  • 00:21:05
    because there's no other part of Wales
  • 00:21:07
    which is open so we keep walking up to
  • 00:21:09
    the board and looking at the promised
  • 00:21:10
    land and coming back now what you've
  • 00:21:13
    actually got is in enabling constraint
  • 00:21:15
    because we've got it's the only place we
  • 00:21:18
    can walk above 2,000 feet within one
  • 00:21:20
    day's driving distance all right
  • 00:21:22
    we are exploring routes we who have
  • 00:21:24
    never normally explore and we've now
  • 00:21:26
    found four or five routes which are not
  • 00:21:28
    in the guidebooks which are much better
  • 00:21:30
    than the guidebook routes because
  • 00:21:32
    they're constraint and attention in the
  • 00:21:34
    system has forced us to adapt to
  • 00:21:37
    something because we didn't have free
  • 00:21:39
    full resource and I think that's the
  • 00:21:40
    other issue about my argument is you use
  • 00:21:43
    the informal network to decide the
  • 00:21:45
    formal system because something is
  • 00:21:47
    sustainable in the informal system the
  • 00:21:49
    energy costs of making it formal is very
  • 00:21:51
    low where if something isn't natural
  • 00:21:54
    in the system the energy cost of
  • 00:21:56
    creating it is very high going that day
  • 00:22:02
    I was just I was just picking out
  • 00:22:06
    nuggets from you all because Jade
  • 00:22:08
    localized peakedness that was an awesome
  • 00:22:11
    phrase so I think that's one we have to
  • 00:22:13
    make a note of and I once said to some
  • 00:22:17
    folks at 3m when I was teaching there I
  • 00:22:19
    said that you should pay your
  • 00:22:20
    salespeople on delivery not on contracts
  • 00:22:24
    or sales because that would ensure they
  • 00:22:26
    could only sell what you could deliver
  • 00:22:28
    they never adopted it of course and then
  • 00:22:32
    we were talking about needing command
  • 00:22:33
    and control when we're still in chaos
  • 00:22:35
    and I'd warrant we're still in chaos and
  • 00:22:38
    I'd ask do we really have any command
  • 00:22:40
    and control leadership right now because
  • 00:22:42
    we're in motion hello drives into it
  • 00:22:45
    Nigel we said to keep diving in you know
  • 00:22:47
    and then we keep diving back we haven't
  • 00:22:49
    realized I mean the problem is Fascists
  • 00:22:54
    thinks chaos is a feature it allows them
  • 00:22:57
    to make those radical decisions without
  • 00:23:00
    being punished for it right so they
  • 00:23:02
    don't make good decisions but they make
  • 00:23:04
    random decisions that benefit them
  • 00:23:06
    bursal basically reorganize as a sort of
  • 00:23:14
    public public funding of private
  • 00:23:16
    enterprise government and and that's a
  • 00:23:19
    danger during a crisis the fascists will
  • 00:23:21
    always come in in this project all right
  • 00:23:23
    we probably need to get away from
  • 00:23:24
    politics and back to organizational
  • 00:23:27
    design because this could get a little
  • 00:23:28
    bit messy I guarantee your Prime
  • 00:23:30
    Minister if you want yes yes we could
  • 00:23:33
    spend a lot of time there one of the
  • 00:23:35
    things I suppose I've noticed is like I
  • 00:23:39
    think Iraq is really useful in some
  • 00:23:42
    contexts but there's a couple of things
  • 00:23:44
    it does first of all it makes complex
  • 00:23:46
    change really hard and secondly it puts
  • 00:23:48
    space between the customer and the
  • 00:23:51
    outcome or the hater is more able to
  • 00:23:59
    achieve changed in the committee this is
  • 00:24:02
    true but what we kind of did me there
  • 00:24:04
    Joel we said all right so we've got this
  • 00:24:05
    cross-functional team which is really
  • 00:24:08
    optimized for complex change and now
  • 00:24:11
    what I'm seeing is an over index on the
  • 00:24:14
    cross-functional team so people are kind
  • 00:24:16
    of going alright we'll get rid of all
  • 00:24:19
    the hierarchy and turn organizations
  • 00:24:21
    into these cross-functional teams like
  • 00:24:24
    collections of cross-functional teams
  • 00:24:26
    and they're forgetting all the benefits
  • 00:24:28
    that we had with the original Iraq like
  • 00:24:33
    what one of the things I would say like
  • 00:24:36
    you know that would link what Andrew
  • 00:24:39
    just said with where Sonja started is
  • 00:24:41
    like distributed decision-making right
  • 00:24:44
    is the super interesting idea is really
  • 00:24:46
    important it comes from all sorts of
  • 00:24:47
    different places including the military
  • 00:24:49
    like how's it supposed to work what it's
  • 00:24:51
    supposed to do and one of the things I
  • 00:24:53
    used to call it the add the new agile
  • 00:24:57
    leader syndrome and in in that in that
  • 00:25:01
    realm what ends up happening is the
  • 00:25:04
    leader advocates all decisions they
  • 00:25:05
    don't they don't distribute the
  • 00:25:07
    decisions they just go I'm not supposed
  • 00:25:09
    to be making the decisions anymore this
  • 00:25:10
    is an agile organization now which is
  • 00:25:13
    like not the point at all in any way and
  • 00:25:16
    so one of the things that I like to do
  • 00:25:19
    with leaders has teach them what I call
  • 00:25:20
    decision economies and basically I say
  • 00:25:23
    to than this how big is your budget like
  • 00:25:26
    let's say your budgets like a hundred
  • 00:25:28
    dollars okay how many decisions can you
  • 00:25:31
    make in a week oh you can make a six
  • 00:25:35
    seven decisions I don't know how do you
  • 00:25:36
    how would you know how many decisions to
  • 00:25:38
    make we go how about this you should try
  • 00:25:42
    to divide your budget into let's say
  • 00:25:45
    three four or five
  • 00:25:47
    so each decision is going to be worth
  • 00:25:50
    two dollars how long will it take you to
  • 00:25:52
    prepare for a two dollar decision if you
  • 00:25:54
    if the only thing you had to spend was
  • 00:25:56
    ten dollars okay so you had now have an
  • 00:26:00
    economic structure for what the right
  • 00:26:03
    size decisions you should be making is
  • 00:26:05
    so you should try to avoid making like
  • 00:26:08
    to set decisions and the way you're
  • 00:26:11
    going to avoid that is you're going to
  • 00:26:12
    teach people in the organization how to
  • 00:26:15
    make those decisions for themselves and
  • 00:26:17
    you're going to try to point to
  • 00:26:20
    and teach the organization what types of
  • 00:26:23
    decisions should come to you right so
  • 00:26:27
    the way to do that is I you know the way
  • 00:26:29
    I used to do is you just take a little
  • 00:26:30
    piece of paper and every time someone
  • 00:26:32
    asks you a question
  • 00:26:33
    you write the question down answer the
  • 00:26:35
    question and then after they leave you
  • 00:26:37
    say what's that an interesting question
  • 00:26:38
    or is that a not interesting question an
  • 00:26:41
    interesting question is when we were
  • 00:26:42
    like glad they asked me that that was
  • 00:26:44
    really interesting and I thought I
  • 00:26:45
    contributed and made things better and
  • 00:26:48
    an interesting question is I felt like I
  • 00:26:50
    had to make that decision because of
  • 00:26:53
    reasons but I wish that I hadn't had to
  • 00:26:56
    make that decision so I needed to go and
  • 00:26:59
    work with the organization to make
  • 00:27:01
    decisions that look like yes stay inside
  • 00:27:04
    the organization to be made right and
  • 00:27:06
    that ends up being to me a really
  • 00:27:10
    critical aspect of organizational design
  • 00:27:13
    which is teaching teams to to
  • 00:27:15
    collaborate and to have productive
  • 00:27:18
    conflict in between teams because the
  • 00:27:21
    minute that that productive conflict
  • 00:27:22
    falls down it starts going up and every
  • 00:27:26
    level it goes up the information gets
  • 00:27:29
    worse and worse if the type of decision
  • 00:27:33
    that's being made is the wrong kind of
  • 00:27:36
    decision and that's those five cent
  • 00:27:38
    decisions instead of those two dollar
  • 00:27:39
    decisions right so there's perfectly
  • 00:27:42
    good things that leadership and
  • 00:27:44
    management should be making decisions
  • 00:27:46
    about they have access to information
  • 00:27:47
    they have insights and relationships
  • 00:27:50
    that other parts of the team don't have
  • 00:27:52
    so there's definitely things that
  • 00:27:54
    leaders should be making decisions about
  • 00:27:56
    the problem is I think in a lot of
  • 00:27:59
    organizations is that leaders see the
  • 00:28:01
    thing that they do is production of
  • 00:28:04
    decisions that's what they think like
  • 00:28:06
    you know productivity mindset what I'm
  • 00:28:08
    supposed to be producing is decisions
  • 00:28:10
    and so they don't stop and say should I
  • 00:28:13
    make this decision or not they just make
  • 00:28:15
    them and that's that's where I think
  • 00:28:18
    things fall down and go sideways and I
  • 00:28:21
    think you know not that I'm a particular
  • 00:28:22
    fan of scrum but you know the product
  • 00:28:27
    owner is a role that has a specific kind
  • 00:28:30
    of decision-making that it's supposed to
  • 00:28:32
    do
  • 00:28:33
    and when people don't do that or can't
  • 00:28:36
    do that inside the organization things
  • 00:28:39
    go sideways pretty quickly right and
  • 00:28:41
    that's for a long time for about two
  • 00:28:43
    years like product owner was like I
  • 00:28:45
    thought was the worst role you could be
  • 00:28:47
    assigned because it was such a [ __ ]
  • 00:28:48
    mess sorry
  • 00:29:01
    so the idea you know they got rid of the
  • 00:29:04
    whole concept of jad from the SDM which
  • 00:29:06
    was far more fluid and engaging right
  • 00:29:08
    and I think that's where you get this
  • 00:29:10
    pendulum swing so the great irony of
  • 00:29:12
    agile is they just swung the pendulum
  • 00:29:14
    right over to the other side yeah rather
  • 00:29:17
    than realizing so they make it an
  • 00:29:19
    either/or and everybody in outdoor
  • 00:29:20
    produces these 32 : tables on the left
  • 00:29:23
    perfectly sensible things which we now
  • 00:29:26
    have to abandon and on the right are a
  • 00:29:28
    bunch of new a fluffy bunny idealistic
  • 00:29:30
    statements which are never going to
  • 00:29:32
    happen anyway but we'll sell Marcus owns
  • 00:29:33
    it and the great irony of our job is it
  • 00:29:36
    claims to be distributed but it's
  • 00:29:38
    dominated by a limited number of
  • 00:29:40
    egomaniac companies trying to sell their
  • 00:29:42
    own personal certification and control
  • 00:29:45
    the fields so they don't even lead their
  • 00:29:46
    own dogfood to use that sort of phrase
  • 00:29:48
    so I think we need to get into this both
  • 00:29:51
    an or either/or and also this understand
  • 00:29:54
    the context and the context you got no
  • 00:29:58
    bloody idea what savvy leadership you
  • 00:30:00
    want anyway I'm sorry son you go on like
  • 00:30:06
    I want it in your blender I'm just gonna
  • 00:30:09
    just throw a couple let me just throw a
  • 00:30:11
    couple of things in there because we're
  • 00:30:14
    gonna put some bleeps in the video
  • 00:30:16
    before we release it obviously though
  • 00:30:17
    you came losing the Train Authority
  • 00:30:27
    completely but the product owner role
  • 00:30:30
    the product owner role is a great idea
  • 00:30:32
    the problem is that the typical
  • 00:30:34
    narcissistic leadership and I do mean
  • 00:30:36
    that when I say that because I've
  • 00:30:37
    experienced it significantly neuters the
  • 00:30:40
    whole purpose of the product down we put
  • 00:30:43
    a product owner there it's gonna make
  • 00:30:44
    the decisions based upon the
  • 00:30:46
    bike from a customer or customers and
  • 00:30:49
    he's gonna work in this sort of
  • 00:30:51
    distributed autonomous way to deliver
  • 00:30:53
    value and then the bosses come and want
  • 00:30:55
    to know everything the product town is
  • 00:30:57
    doing it overrule them more times and
  • 00:30:58
    not because the product owner is never
  • 00:31:00
    in a position of inferred seniority to
  • 00:31:03
    make decisions and to say no to the boss
  • 00:31:05
    now some organizations it works in but
  • 00:31:08
    invariably the product owner can only
  • 00:31:10
    say yes within a range of inhibiting
  • 00:31:12
    constraints not enabling constraints I
  • 00:31:17
    like the phrase production of decisions
  • 00:31:20
    the c-suite seems to be Renu Maury
  • 00:31:23
    Taedong the number of decisions they
  • 00:31:25
    make good bad or indifferent but a lot
  • 00:31:28
    of what you've just been talking about
  • 00:31:30
    sivori endorses some of the stuff I've
  • 00:31:32
    been working on again back to boundary
  • 00:31:33
    spanners intent based leadership
  • 00:31:37
    psychological safety active listening
  • 00:31:40
    these are all things that are necessary
  • 00:31:42
    to create the environment that some of
  • 00:31:45
    you have been talking about and now
  • 00:31:46
    we're not the vision they're necessary
  • 00:31:48
    but not sufficient everybody goes in
  • 00:31:51
    that key concept is one of the most
  • 00:31:53
    important ones around things Andrew you
  • 00:32:04
    spoke about how hierarchies can actually
  • 00:32:06
    be can inhibit change I think that's
  • 00:32:09
    what you say today and if you said it's
  • 00:32:12
    it's easier for a dictator to bring
  • 00:32:14
    change than by committee but I what I
  • 00:32:17
    wanted to just add to this then the
  • 00:32:19
    dictator needs to want to and I think
  • 00:32:21
    that's part of the problem because I I
  • 00:32:25
    was reminded of I think it's in so
  • 00:32:28
    heifetz in Lenski and the practice of
  • 00:32:30
    adaptive leadership they talked about
  • 00:32:32
    this notion of there's no such thing as
  • 00:32:34
    a dysfunctional system it is set up
  • 00:32:37
    perfectly to get you know to get the
  • 00:32:39
    results it's getting so it serves
  • 00:32:41
    somebody in some way or a couple of
  • 00:32:43
    somebodies for the system to be the way
  • 00:32:45
    it is and I think you know so yes it's
  • 00:32:50
    it's probably easier for a dictator to
  • 00:32:53
    mandate change but it serves the system
  • 00:32:57
    in some way to be like it is you know we
  • 00:32:58
    look at it from
  • 00:32:59
    Seiden we said that it's a super
  • 00:33:01
    dysfunctional system but it's getting
  • 00:33:03
    it's set up to get particular results
  • 00:33:05
    that it might not see as is as
  • 00:33:07
    dysfunctional China is better able to
  • 00:33:14
    act on climate change than the US and
  • 00:33:18
    that's an example there's a point where
  • 00:33:21
    you reach a level of crisis where
  • 00:33:24
    consultation is effectively an
  • 00:33:26
    inhibiting constraint not enabling
  • 00:33:28
    constraint to use that phrase there is a
  • 00:33:31
    context shifts into a level where the
  • 00:33:33
    timeframe for decision is reduced the
  • 00:33:36
    impact of decision is reduced then the
  • 00:33:39
    more engagement you have in a decision
  • 00:33:41
    the less likely the right position is
  • 00:33:43
    going to be made and that that's why
  • 00:33:46
    military environments keep strict
  • 00:33:48
    hierarchies which they will fall back to
  • 00:33:49
    if it comes to good sorry saying yeah no
  • 00:33:56
    no I just want to say I take the point
  • 00:33:58
    in crisis you know this has been in
  • 00:34:01
    conversation even before we entered this
  • 00:34:03
    level of crisis and I think just the the
  • 00:34:07
    amount of uncertainty that you know
  • 00:34:09
    leaders have to face you know and and
  • 00:34:11
    you know Jeb you said um you know
  • 00:34:14
    leaders see their role almost as making
  • 00:34:16
    decisions you know that's that's their
  • 00:34:17
    job but I've in some companies I've seen
  • 00:34:20
    the opposite where leaders in really
  • 00:34:23
    senior positions are so paralyzed almost
  • 00:34:25
    by the uncertainty that they actually
  • 00:34:28
    don't make decisions now because they
  • 00:34:30
    don't make the since that kind of
  • 00:34:32
    creates so many competing priorities
  • 00:34:34
    lower down in the organization that the
  • 00:34:36
    whole thing just grinds to training
  • 00:34:40
    which produced though it used to be
  • 00:34:44
    until the 80s leaders grew up in the
  • 00:34:47
    company they evolved with the company
  • 00:34:49
    they occupied different management roles
  • 00:34:50
    they knew how the thing worked and then
  • 00:34:53
    we created this class of professional
  • 00:34:54
    leadership where they think their
  • 00:34:56
    function is to make decisions based on
  • 00:34:58
    objective evidence based spreadsheets
  • 00:35:00
    and of course that breaks down
  • 00:35:02
    completely in a crisis so they just
  • 00:35:04
    basically try and get more data to try
  • 00:35:06
    and make a more objective decision yeah
  • 00:35:08
    because they haven't got that ability to
  • 00:35:10
    make it call and then especially often
  • 00:35:12
    give is
  • 00:35:13
    one good thing about the US Health
  • 00:35:14
    Service is that all the hospitals are
  • 00:35:17
    run by doctors if you go in and meet the
  • 00:35:20
    head of a hospital in the u.s. you meet
  • 00:35:21
    somebody in a white coat they're still
  • 00:35:23
    doing doctor work is the calories if I
  • 00:35:25
    go back to house yeah you go into the UK
  • 00:35:28
    you meet a manager with five assistants
  • 00:35:30
    and half a dozen data analytics guys
  • 00:35:32
    we've got no medical experience
  • 00:35:34
    whatsoever so they can only make
  • 00:35:37
    decisions based on the center of a
  • 00:35:38
    normal distribution so the minute you
  • 00:35:41
    hit an environment where the
  • 00:35:42
    distribution isn't normal anymore
  • 00:35:43
    they're just lost
  • 00:35:44
    whereas some do you've grown up in the
  • 00:35:46
    environment would know what to do so
  • 00:35:50
    like you know like as another version of
  • 00:35:53
    the of this metaphor
  • 00:35:55
    you know the Prussian army figures out
  • 00:35:58
    maneuver warfare and what you know what
  • 00:36:01
    people end up talking a lot about is the
  • 00:36:03
    rapidity of the decision-making inside
  • 00:36:05
    of maneuver warfare and the distributed
  • 00:36:07
    nature that of the decision making
  • 00:36:09
    pretty go look at what ver monkey was
  • 00:36:12
    actually talking about basically he what
  • 00:36:13
    he said was the previous form of war
  • 00:36:17
    making that the Prussians were taking
  • 00:36:19
    was basically a highly centralized
  • 00:36:22
    commanding control structure and the
  • 00:36:25
    problem with that wasn't just that
  • 00:36:27
    decisions couldn't get made fast enough
  • 00:36:29
    it was that the managers inside of the
  • 00:36:31
    organization had been be skilled they
  • 00:36:34
    did not know how to make decisions so
  • 00:36:37
    part of the decentralization of decision
  • 00:36:41
    making is to re-skill the individuals
  • 00:36:45
    who need to make decisions in order to
  • 00:36:48
    increase the adaptive capacity of the
  • 00:36:51
    organization for times in which
  • 00:36:53
    challenges occur because again you know
  • 00:36:56
    the way I was trying to describe it is
  • 00:36:58
    like flat is calm the middle is this
  • 00:37:01
    header are key which is responsive to
  • 00:37:02
    the actual environment and true locked
  • 00:37:06
    in command and control is a survival
  • 00:37:08
    mode you want to avoid going into
  • 00:37:11
    survival mode preferably you like like
  • 00:37:13
    to keep it in the reactive ability to
  • 00:37:17
    respond adaptive capacity mode right and
  • 00:37:21
    it doesn't mean you don't want to be
  • 00:37:23
    able to do this survival mode it's kind
  • 00:37:25
    of like having a you know
  • 00:37:26
    a lifeboat it's good to have you
  • 00:37:28
    shouldn't use it all the time and and
  • 00:37:31
    rescaling management rescaling people to
  • 00:37:34
    be able to keep the fluidity and
  • 00:37:36
    decision-making inside the organization
  • 00:37:38
    I think that's part of what we need to
  • 00:37:41
    get better at and what we need to
  • 00:37:42
    acknowledge is that the praxis of
  • 00:37:44
    management is being destroyed by
  • 00:37:48
    objective top-down control I'm I think
  • 00:37:55
    the democracy as has navigated a lot of
  • 00:37:58
    crisis seas over the years and well I
  • 00:38:03
    think that China might be currently
  • 00:38:04
    equipped I think that might be to do
  • 00:38:06
    with agents in the system that are
  • 00:38:08
    acting against democracy at the moment
  • 00:38:11
    rather than the system itself which
  • 00:38:14
    we're not thinking that organizational
  • 00:38:16
    design you kind of good alumni networks
  • 00:38:19
    that are quite rich that sit outside of
  • 00:38:22
    organizations and there is a vested
  • 00:38:24
    interest in some of those organized
  • 00:38:27
    alumni networks to create large-scale
  • 00:38:30
    change that change between organizations
  • 00:38:34
    see that the large codes are the big
  • 00:38:39
    four really do manage those networks so
  • 00:38:42
    well and make sure they're putting
  • 00:38:44
    people into organizations into
  • 00:38:46
    leadership roles and usually the intent
  • 00:38:49
    there is to follow them that follow
  • 00:38:51
    behind them with some sort of big change
  • 00:38:53
    so perhaps in the OD context there's
  • 00:38:59
    something that a little bit malicious in
  • 00:39:02
    the system that's creating large scale
  • 00:39:07
    and in inhumane and quite negatively
  • 00:39:11
    impactful change as well okay but the
  • 00:39:14
    trouble with the management consultancy
  • 00:39:16
    model is is what I call the mistletoe
  • 00:39:17
    model yeah it ends up throttling the oak
  • 00:39:21
    trees because it's monocultural so what
  • 00:39:25
    is what it's basically doing is to
  • 00:39:27
    create is craziness at a parasitical
  • 00:39:30
    relationship yeah which lacks requisite
  • 00:39:33
    diversity within the system and I think
  • 00:39:36
    that's a big problem with that model is
  • 00:39:38
    very successful
  • 00:39:39
    or it's been successful for a limited
  • 00:39:42
    period of time
  • 00:39:43
    similarly democracy can't like it
  • 00:39:46
    doesn't really start in Britain until
  • 00:39:48
    around about 1850 maybe the 19th century
  • 00:39:52
    yeah maybe the 20th century and it
  • 00:39:55
    actually starts once the population goes
  • 00:39:57
    over a certain level it starts to loses
  • 00:39:59
    capacity well the short term focus and I
  • 00:40:04
    always go back to the American
  • 00:40:05
    Constitution it says nobody should be
  • 00:40:07
    elected as president by the popular vote
  • 00:40:09
    because we'll get demagogues and yeah
  • 00:40:12
    populist but it says you need
  • 00:40:15
    involvement in this so please elect five
  • 00:40:17
    good men from your state it was men in
  • 00:40:19
    those days and they can get together and
  • 00:40:21
    decide who should be President and if I
  • 00:40:25
    look at the work we now do in our cities
  • 00:40:26
    and assemblies and citizen juries which
  • 00:40:29
    is essentially a really big thing for us
  • 00:40:31
    over the next nine months yeah that's
  • 00:40:33
    where you start to go is factory its
  • 00:40:35
    delegate of democracy now of course the
  • 00:40:38
    agile guys and the IT people on this
  • 00:40:40
    want a formula so they've gone down this
  • 00:40:43
    route about you decide who's an expert
  • 00:40:45
    you online delegate your expertise to
  • 00:40:47
    that person they then vote for you
  • 00:40:49
    that's not going to work because that
  • 00:40:51
    will be manipulated but the concept of
  • 00:40:53
    assembling a group of people to make a
  • 00:40:55
    decision yeah because then that group to
  • 00:40:59
    make a hard decision but they've got
  • 00:41:01
    legitimacy the minute somebody knows if
  • 00:41:04
    they make a decision people don't like
  • 00:41:05
    they're going to lose a vote at the next
  • 00:41:07
    election and so you've lost it yeah and
  • 00:41:09
    at the moment what the planet needs is
  • 00:41:12
    long-term decisions that our political
  • 00:41:15
    cycle is a short-term decision cycle and
  • 00:41:18
    the same is true in organizations
  • 00:41:20
    they've been forced into shorter no
  • 00:41:22
    soldier decision like cut cycles based
  • 00:41:25
    on faster and faster returns without
  • 00:41:27
    building the expertise into the system
  • 00:41:30
    that will digitize hard decisions so yes
  • 00:41:35
    that's how hard decisions legitimize
  • 00:41:37
    which matters yeah that's one big I'm
  • 00:41:43
    sorry Sonya to change the topic okay
  • 00:41:52
    thank you
  • 00:41:53
    till the end of the hour and then she
  • 00:41:55
    switches the topic yes so she can have
  • 00:41:57
    the last word I wanted to take another
  • 00:42:10
    tack but you finish your thoughts first
  • 00:42:15
    well I should have got lost a little bit
  • 00:42:17
    but I was coming back on the consultancy
  • 00:42:19
    thing that everybody was talking about
  • 00:42:21
    and they and Android risen about the big
  • 00:42:24
    four or whatever it is nowadays
  • 00:42:25
    consulting houses and we done a bit of
  • 00:42:27
    banter on Twitter about this I think
  • 00:42:29
    that in the last couple of days is that
  • 00:42:32
    what I've seen over the years is these
  • 00:42:35
    consultancies are perfectly equipped to
  • 00:42:39
    prevent an organization creating an
  • 00:42:41
    organizational design for themselves
  • 00:42:43
    because what happens is you get certain
  • 00:42:46
    leadership that abdicate their
  • 00:42:47
    responsibility and accountability by
  • 00:42:49
    outsourcing it to a large consultancy
  • 00:42:52
    organization and then that consultants
  • 00:42:55
    the organisation of once they're in
  • 00:42:57
    their whole predication is to get more
  • 00:43:00
    bums on seats more bodies in there less
  • 00:43:02
    let's get more billable hours in there
  • 00:43:05
    and so that that prevents us and so when
  • 00:43:08
    I've come up against that and I tried to
  • 00:43:10
    sort of elucidate people to date this
  • 00:43:13
    sort of what's happening then that
  • 00:43:15
    machinery pushes back with some ferocity
  • 00:43:18
    and then you get this herd mentality
  • 00:43:20
    where they all sort of suddenly suck in
  • 00:43:23
    and draw ranks and protect the wounded
  • 00:43:25
    individual that you're attacking and and
  • 00:43:27
    you fail miserably so we have to look at
  • 00:43:30
    the the whole way that organizations are
  • 00:43:34
    outsourcing their problems to these
  • 00:43:37
    gigantic consulting houses that aren't
  • 00:43:40
    actually equip and actually don't care
  • 00:43:42
    about solving your problems what the
  • 00:43:44
    care about is making money and ensuring
  • 00:43:47
    and they're parasitic comment from David
  • 00:43:49
    think which is the fact that they are
  • 00:43:51
    becoming a parasite sucking and bleeding
  • 00:43:54
    dry the organization for their own
  • 00:43:56
    survival rather than providing a
  • 00:43:59
    mechanism a scaffolding which was the
  • 00:44:02
    comment that raised some interesting
  • 00:44:04
    comments on YouTube they the dam
  • 00:44:07
    the comments but a scaffolding for the
  • 00:44:08
    ization and get them through a period of
  • 00:44:12
    time for when they can actually survive
  • 00:44:15
    themselves but you know rather than let
  • 00:44:18
    Dave come back on that comment on
  • 00:44:20
    Twitter Sonia savers I'm a but I do one
  • 00:44:29
    thing because I responded nitro really
  • 00:44:31
    quickly I think the thing to understand
  • 00:44:34
    about a lot of the big four is that to
  • 00:44:37
    use Dave's chef's metaphor hey I make
  • 00:44:41
    pizzas and the big four goes great I
  • 00:44:43
    know a lot of people who make pizzas
  • 00:44:45
    I've been in almost all their kitchens
  • 00:44:47
    have you been in their kitchens I but
  • 00:44:49
    you haven't been in their kitchens but
  • 00:44:50
    I've been in their kitchens did you know
  • 00:44:52
    that you spend 50 cents more per pizza
  • 00:44:55
    than your friend on the street Oh would
  • 00:44:59
    you like to know how their kitchens set
  • 00:45:00
    up I can come in here and set your
  • 00:45:02
    kitchen up like their kitchen setup that
  • 00:45:05
    is what they're selling what they're
  • 00:45:07
    selling is homogeneous a ssin of the of
  • 00:45:09
    your organizational design based on the
  • 00:45:13
    theory that unless your organizational
  • 00:45:16
    design is producing some sort of
  • 00:45:18
    radically massive value add you should
  • 00:45:21
    you should look exactly like everybody
  • 00:45:23
    else because then you mister manager
  • 00:45:26
    executive know that you're not spending
  • 00:45:28
    too much on labor right and that's
  • 00:45:32
    that's really what they're selling and
  • 00:45:33
    the trick that I think they have is and
  • 00:45:35
    it's not it's not actually that they try
  • 00:45:37
    to maximize this individual sale it's
  • 00:45:40
    that they intentionally clip something
  • 00:45:42
    in the kitchen that they know will have
  • 00:45:44
    to be repaired later so you have to call
  • 00:45:47
    them back every three years anyway sorry
  • 00:45:50
    I worked in one of those for long enough
  • 00:46:02
    I I think sometimes it is very much
  • 00:46:04
    deliberate but I I just basically wanted
  • 00:46:08
    to you know it's it's interesting one of
  • 00:46:12
    the other things that I feel consultants
  • 00:46:15
    don't do the big consultancies in any
  • 00:46:17
    way is to not pend that
  • 00:46:20
    client and to ask the critical questions
  • 00:46:23
    around if the client really understands
  • 00:46:26
    what it is that they need not
  • 00:46:28
    necessarily what they want and I where I
  • 00:46:33
    wanted to just take the conversation and
  • 00:46:34
    and I I think it is something to set up
  • 00:46:37
    a next one is I think we've been we've
  • 00:46:40
    had so many really interesting
  • 00:46:41
    conversations you know some about theory
  • 00:46:46
    some a little bit about practice but you
  • 00:46:47
    know I'm curious about you know one of
  • 00:46:50
    the things that that we teachers well
  • 00:46:52
    dave is we need to mean we need to meet
  • 00:46:54
    systems where they are and if I think
  • 00:46:56
    about some of the systems some of my
  • 00:46:58
    client systems that are really really
  • 00:47:00
    struggling right now they are large
  • 00:47:03
    corporates with deep hierarchies or
  • 00:47:06
    they've actually got matrices with very
  • 00:47:10
    often senior leaders at the top who do
  • 00:47:15
    not want to adopt new models who are not
  • 00:47:19
    particularly interested in what we are
  • 00:47:21
    talking about about scaffolding and
  • 00:47:22
    themes of themes and all these things
  • 00:47:24
    they are just focused on short-term
  • 00:47:26
    profit and somewhere here in the middle
  • 00:47:28
    there a couple of people either OD
  • 00:47:31
    practitioners or managers who saying we
  • 00:47:33
    need change but it's like they are you
  • 00:47:36
    know I almost want to say something
  • 00:47:38
    really rude but I want but they you know
  • 00:47:40
    it's like they struggling and I can't
  • 00:47:42
    get anything done and I'm wondering you
  • 00:47:45
    know with everything that we've spoken
  • 00:47:47
    about taking in a scenario like that how
  • 00:47:50
    do you work with a system like that and
  • 00:47:53
    actually help create change because some
  • 00:47:55
    some of it ones that I'm seeing I'll
  • 00:47:58
    take one example really large
  • 00:47:59
    multinational company they've decided
  • 00:48:01
    they are now abandoning annual
  • 00:48:04
    performance assessments and it's just
  • 00:48:07
    like a once-off now it's just gone and
  • 00:48:09
    are they're going to train all the
  • 00:48:11
    managers to become coaches so something
  • 00:48:14
    that has propped up the system that the
  • 00:48:16
    culture is kind of like a puller that
  • 00:48:18
    the culture has structured around it's
  • 00:48:20
    just being removed and all of the other
  • 00:48:23
    consultancies are basically just you
  • 00:48:24
    know clamoring to help them train their
  • 00:48:26
    managers as coaches and there's not much
  • 00:48:28
    conversation going on around how are you
  • 00:48:31
    going to scaffold this process so that
  • 00:48:33
    it doesn't actually end up doing
  • 00:48:34
    more harm than good and so I think I'm
  • 00:48:37
    really interested in exploring without
  • 00:48:40
    collective wisdom what do we how do we
  • 00:48:42
    deal with a scenario like that I think
  • 00:48:48
    no I think that's a really good topic
  • 00:48:52
    for the forth conversation I didn't know
  • 00:48:54
    there was going to be a fourth now there
  • 00:48:55
    is definitely going to be a fourth
  • 00:48:56
    Andrew but I think the other comment I
  • 00:49:01
    picked up on is what how do we stop
  • 00:49:04
    these Consulting houses - you know
  • 00:49:06
    delivering what people want rather than
  • 00:49:09
    what they need and and the reality of it
  • 00:49:12
    is and I've worked with all the big the
  • 00:49:14
    big sort of major players in the game
  • 00:49:16
    rather than the small boutiques like we
  • 00:49:18
    and they all it's always never piss off
  • 00:49:22
    the client he never never upset the
  • 00:49:24
    client give them what they want you know
  • 00:49:26
    rather than and and I've been fired more
  • 00:49:28
    times than I've been hired as a phrase I
  • 00:49:30
    often use because I tell them what they
  • 00:49:32
    need and they don't like hearing what
  • 00:49:34
    they need and but that's that's that
  • 00:49:37
    therein lies the problem and and what
  • 00:49:39
    you've just described Sonja about he's
  • 00:49:42
    majorly kind of like how do we actually
  • 00:49:46
    get the leaders to accept some level of
  • 00:49:49
    senior hierarchy to accept what they
  • 00:49:52
    need rather than what they want you said
  • 00:49:55
    something really important earlier it's
  • 00:49:57
    not that they give the client what they
  • 00:49:58
    need what they do is they have
  • 00:50:01
    modernized what they think everybody
  • 00:50:04
    else is doing to create a pattern that
  • 00:50:06
    the client falls into which they can
  • 00:50:09
    then satisfy so it's it's downward
  • 00:50:10
    spiral of conformity okay I used to call
  • 00:50:16
    it terraforming like it I have a I have
  • 00:50:20
    a great way for you all to work is
  • 00:50:22
    amazing but the first thing I have to do
  • 00:50:24
    is completely level your organisation
  • 00:50:27
    make it completely flat and then we can
  • 00:50:29
    build up from there and if I make it
  • 00:50:31
    look like everybody else's kitchen then
  • 00:50:33
    I can teach you how to do anything it's
  • 00:50:34
    like I don't know that's the right way
  • 00:50:37
    to go about it I also like you know
  • 00:50:40
    Sonia like you know you've hit on one of
  • 00:50:43
    the things I love which is transition
  • 00:50:45
    design like the actual design
  • 00:50:47
    moving from one place to another as
  • 00:50:49
    opposed to the design of the end point
  • 00:50:50
    itself and I used to say to people you
  • 00:50:54
    have a you have an imagination in your
  • 00:50:56
    head that we can make a big switch and
  • 00:50:58
    that just one day you just come and you
  • 00:51:00
    flip the switch and then everybody's in
  • 00:51:02
    the in the new thing and that will never
  • 00:51:04
    happen that's never gonna exist like
  • 00:51:07
    that that there's no organization that
  • 00:51:09
    has ever had a change that's anything
  • 00:51:11
    like that and therefore maybe you want
  • 00:51:14
    to design the transition between your
  • 00:51:16
    imagined future state which we can talk
  • 00:51:19
    about more but the transition is
  • 00:51:22
    probably more important than the end
  • 00:51:23
    state let's go with that and you should
  • 00:51:31
    then we'll show you what's working they
  • 00:51:32
    even decide what you want to do with it
  • 00:51:34
    rather than the same will redesign as if
  • 00:51:36
    you say that the big consultancies
  • 00:51:38
    moving straight away because nobody gets
  • 00:51:40
    five - implementing the Mackenzies
  • 00:51:43
    report yeah and and that's that that's
  • 00:51:46
    where their strength comes from you're
  • 00:51:48
    not gonna get fired if you do what they
  • 00:51:49
    say because you you you could you had
  • 00:51:52
    your second pair as a boutique you have
  • 00:51:55
    to get to the board and as McKinsey
  • 00:51:58
    you're already on the board one more for
  • 00:52:03
    people to think about before next week
  • 00:52:05
    they're just a tack on to that - Sonja's
  • 00:52:08
    coming is how do you make a change
  • 00:52:10
    that's big enough that it doesn't get
  • 00:52:12
    eaten by the machine but small enough to
  • 00:52:15
    be appreciative of the complexity of the
  • 00:52:17
    system that's something I'm very
  • 00:52:19
    interested in
  • 00:52:23
    he's gonna slay stick this is a good
  • 00:52:26
    place at the end record Andrew good
  • 00:52:28
    stuff
Tags
  • Leadership
  • Emergent property
  • Hierarchy
  • Social practice
  • Organizational design
  • Consultancies
  • Adaptive capacity
  • Decision-making
  • Tension
  • Change management