New President of Syria: Ahmed al-Sharaa

00:48:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaB3ke4SHKE

Ringkasan

TLDRThe interview features a dialogue between Rory Stewart and Al Galani, the newly appointed president of Syria, formerly a fighter for Al-Qaeda. They discuss the evolution of Al Galani’s role from a militant to the president amidst the Syrian revolution and the drastic political changes in the region. Al Galani reflects on his past experiences in Iraq, his views on governance, the need for peace, and economic recovery as critical for Syria's future. He also talks about the challenges of leading a divided nation, the importance of avoiding civilian harm, and his commitment to the people of Syria.

Takeaways

  • 🤝 Both sides discuss their unexpected paths from combatants to leaders.
  • 🕌 Al Galani emphasizes the need for national peace and security.
  • 📜 His government plans to draft a new constitution and hold national dialogue.
  • 🌍 Al Galani asserts the importance of changing Western policies regarding the Middle East.
  • ⚔️ He stresses avoiding civilian harm while fighting the regime.
  • 👨‍👩‍👦 He confirms having a family but keeps details private for security reasons.
  • 💼 Al Galani aims to rebuild Syria's economy and institutions.
  • ✊ He rejects any form of sectarian conflict in Syria.
  • 🕊️ Al Galani expresses a desire for constructive relationships with surrounding nations.
  • 🌱 He believes in adapting successful economic models to fit Syria’s unique context.

Garis waktu

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The interview begins with Rory Stewart recalling his past in Iraq where he was part of the American British occupation, while the interviewee fought for Al-Qaeda against that very occupation. They meet in Damascus, now under the leadership of Ahmed Al Shara, reflecting on the irony of their past roles.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Ahmed Al Shara discusses his personal journey which began in Saudi Arabia, emphasizing his desire for his first presidential visit to be significant, thus traveling to Saudi Arabia following an invitation from Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman. He expresses his respect for the importance of Saudi Arabia in regional politics.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Reflecting on his transition from a fighter to a president, Ahmed Al Shara explains that his leadership is a response to the suffering of Syrians under oppression and devastation. He notes that the regime rejected political solutions, leading to a societal collapse over fourteen years.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Ahmed Al Shara shares insights about his childhood and upbringing in a politically aware family. Despite living a privileged life, he was motivated by widespread oppression in the region, prompting his later activism and decision to fight against the regime.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    The discussion touches on the failed Damascus Spring and the lack of political engagement in Arab societies, with Ahmed Al Shara noting that the lack of experience in practical politics contributed to the failure of reform movements in Syria and the inability of ordinary citizens to effect change.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    The interview delves into Ahmed Al Shara's experience in Iraqi prisons, where he witnessed a deep political awakening amid the sectarian violence unraveling in Iraq, prompting him to refocus on returning to Syria to fight against the regime rather than joining in sectarian warfare.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Ahmed Al Shara talks about the evolution of Al-Qaeda in Iraq and his resistance to its more extreme factions, focusing instead on uniting his forces in Syria to fight the regime, thus leading to internal conflicts and losses among his group.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The interview reflects on the oddity of the two interviewing, given their past affiliations in Iraq, with Rory Stewart emphasizing the need to reevaluate past policies. There is a juxtaposition between their prior stances and the current dialogue focusing on peace.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:48:06

    The conversation shifts to Ahmed Al Shara’s goals as president, focusing on stabilizing the government, ensuring a comprehensive national dialogue, and setting clear timelines for a new constitution, elections, and future governance by emphasizing a collective national effort.

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Peta Pikiran

Video Tanya Jawab

  • What was the purpose of Al Galani's visit to Saudi Arabia?

    Al Galani wanted to establish diplomatic relations and express his aspirations as the new leader of Syria.

  • How does Al Galani view his past as a fighter for Al-Qaeda?

    He acknowledges his past but emphasizes the need for change and moving towards peace in Syria.

  • What challenges does Al Galani face as president?

    He faces a shattered economy, security threats, and the need for political stabilization.

  • What are Al Galani’s views on Western policies regarding Syria?

    He believes that past Western policies created instability and need to be reassessed for future peace.

  • How does Al Galani plan to ensure civilian safety in Syria?

    He expresses a commitment to avoid targeting civilians in warfare, focusing on regime forces instead.

  • What is Al Galani's timeline for political reforms and elections?

    He outlines a phased approach towards constitutional reforms and national dialogue after stabilizing the government.

  • How does Al Galani define his revolutionary mindset?

    He believes that revolution is necessary for change but stresses the importance of governance and development afterward.

  • What does Al Galani say about his family?

    He confirms having one wife and three children but is reluctant to share more personal details.

  • What is Al Galani's stance on lifting sanctions against Syria?

    He argues that sanctions should be lifted now that the previous regime has been dismantled.

  • How does Al Galani view his role in the future of Syria?

    He sees himself as a builder of peace and a leader focused on economic development and stability.

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Teks
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Gulir Otomatis:
  • 00:00:00
    Mr President it's strange for me sitting
  • 00:00:01
    with you because we were both in Iraq
  • 00:00:04
    together in 2003 but we were on
  • 00:00:06
    different sides I was part of the
  • 00:00:09
    American British occupation and you were
  • 00:00:11
    fighting for Al-Qaeda against the
  • 00:00:13
    occupation and I never imagined I would
  • 00:00:15
    sit down uh like this to talk to you in
  • 00:00:18
    this
  • 00:00:18
    [Music]
  • 00:00:26
    way welcome to the rest this politics
  • 00:00:29
    leading with me Rory Stewart and with me
  • 00:00:32
    alist Campbell and you're about to
  • 00:00:34
    listen to an interview that Rory and I
  • 00:00:36
    did a few days ago in Damascus in the
  • 00:00:40
    Palace of the people as Bashar
  • 00:00:42
    al-assad insisted on calling it which is
  • 00:00:46
    now occupied by a man that many of you
  • 00:00:48
    will know as Al galani but actually is
  • 00:00:52
    called now president Ahmed Al Shara and
  • 00:00:56
    a really really interesting interview
  • 00:00:59
    [Music]
  • 00:01:00
    you've just been in Saudi Arabia tell us
  • 00:01:03
    what you were doing there what you were
  • 00:01:04
    hoping to achieve and what you did
  • 00:01:09
    achieve in the name of Allah the most
  • 00:01:11
    beneficent the most merciful welcome to
  • 00:01:14
    Damascus to begin with Saudi Arabia is
  • 00:01:18
    where I was born and I had always
  • 00:01:21
    dreamed of going back there that's at a
  • 00:01:24
    personal level speaking as a head of
  • 00:01:26
    state I wanted my first visit to to be
  • 00:01:30
    to a major Arab country and so when I
  • 00:01:34
    received an urgent invitation from the
  • 00:01:36
    Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman I took
  • 00:01:40
    him up on it right away because I
  • 00:01:43
    thought it was a good idea for my first
  • 00:01:46
    visit to be to Saudi Arabia it's a
  • 00:01:49
    country with a special status and
  • 00:01:52
    influence in our
  • 00:01:55
    region does it not feel very strange to
  • 00:01:57
    be the president now you in this Palace
  • 00:02:01
    that Assad was in you've been a fighter
  • 00:02:06
    you've been a prisoner you've been a
  • 00:02:07
    warrior you've been a leader and now
  • 00:02:10
    you're president does this not feel very
  • 00:02:12
    very
  • 00:02:14
    strange I was a fighter but it wasn't
  • 00:02:17
    because I wanted to fight and today I am
  • 00:02:21
    the president but it's not because I
  • 00:02:23
    wanted to be president syrians endured
  • 00:02:27
    terrible oppression for 60 years
  • 00:02:30
    during the past 14 years their society
  • 00:02:33
    has been systematically destroyed people
  • 00:02:37
    were displaced murdered killed with
  • 00:02:40
    chemical weapons and tortured in the
  • 00:02:43
    regime's presence the regime did not
  • 00:02:46
    take up on any of the political
  • 00:02:48
    solutions that were offered to it it
  • 00:02:51
    refused to meet any of the people's
  • 00:02:54
    demand after things escalated and
  • 00:02:57
    fighting began it was offered lots of
  • 00:03:01
    political solutions from Regional
  • 00:03:02
    countries and the International
  • 00:03:04
    Community but it refused any political
  • 00:03:07
    solution and continued to destroy Syrian
  • 00:03:14
    Society so we say in English that the
  • 00:03:18
    child is Father of the man and sometimes
  • 00:03:22
    we feel that our childhood helps to make
  • 00:03:25
    us can you share anything about your
  • 00:03:28
    childhood and the Val of your childhood
  • 00:03:31
    that helped you become the person you
  • 00:03:32
    are
  • 00:03:35
    today my family comes originally from
  • 00:03:38
    the gulan now occupied by the Israeli
  • 00:03:41
    State I was born in Saudi Arabia I lived
  • 00:03:44
    in Damascus then went to Iraq and
  • 00:03:47
    finally came back to Syria for the sake
  • 00:03:50
    of the Blessed Syrian Revolution so my
  • 00:03:53
    life had many stages and during this
  • 00:03:56
    journey I was introduced to many ideas
  • 00:03:59
    in my childhood I was like any other
  • 00:04:02
    child I lived in a neighborhood that was
  • 00:04:05
    well off middle class or upper middle
  • 00:04:08
    class I went to elementary school in
  • 00:04:11
    Damascus then middle school and high
  • 00:04:14
    school after that during my first year
  • 00:04:17
    in college war broke out in Iraq I felt
  • 00:04:21
    that I had to go there our region
  • 00:04:23
    generally back then was going through a
  • 00:04:26
    difficult time this was when the antifa
  • 00:04:29
    was happening in occupied Palestine and
  • 00:04:32
    many Palestinians were killed especially
  • 00:04:35
    in 2000 and 2001 and 2002 I'm from a
  • 00:04:40
    sort of a political family my father had
  • 00:04:43
    been a political Refugee in Iraq and he
  • 00:04:46
    wrote about political issues for Saudi
  • 00:04:49
    and Syrian newspapers we talked about
  • 00:04:52
    politics in our
  • 00:04:56
    home your father was a uh a leading
  • 00:05:00
    figure in the uh Damascus spring and in
  • 00:05:04
    the end the Damascus spring was not
  • 00:05:08
    successful what lessons did you learn
  • 00:05:11
    from that failure was the problem for
  • 00:05:13
    the Damascus spring ideological or
  • 00:05:18
    tactical generally there is a strong
  • 00:05:21
    political culture in Arab societies but
  • 00:05:24
    ordinary people have no experience of
  • 00:05:27
    practical politics because regimes don't
  • 00:05:31
    let them take part in it and without
  • 00:05:34
    that experience they can't have a
  • 00:05:36
    correct practical understanding of
  • 00:05:39
    political reality also in a country like
  • 00:05:43
    Syria there wasn't any forum for
  • 00:05:46
    engaging in Practical politics so the
  • 00:05:49
    Damascus spring was born
  • 00:05:53
    dead you were in Iraq as a fighter for
  • 00:05:57
    three years and then in prison for 5
  • 00:05:59
    years what was it like being in a prison
  • 00:06:02
    how did that change you what did it
  • 00:06:04
    teach you and how did you become this
  • 00:06:07
    figure that Rose so quickly through the
  • 00:06:10
    ranks of the various organizations then
  • 00:06:12
    involved in
  • 00:06:15
    Insurgency as I mentioned back then I
  • 00:06:19
    was 19 years old or so when I started to
  • 00:06:22
    realize just how much oppression there
  • 00:06:25
    was in Syria and The Wider region the
  • 00:06:28
    Palestinian in father had a big impact
  • 00:06:31
    on me psychologically I felt the need to
  • 00:06:35
    learn and I read a lot about Damascus
  • 00:06:38
    and Syria the incredible depth of its
  • 00:06:41
    history and the great civilization it
  • 00:06:44
    represents as it is the first city known
  • 00:06:47
    to humans I often walked through the
  • 00:06:50
    Alleyways of old Damascus and I could
  • 00:06:53
    feel history speaking from every corner
  • 00:06:57
    but at the same time I could see the
  • 00:06:59
    state of the country and the appalling
  • 00:07:02
    way that the former government was
  • 00:07:04
    running the country I felt pain for the
  • 00:07:07
    burden that Damascus carried and how the
  • 00:07:10
    regime was abusing Syrian society and
  • 00:07:14
    this ancient city I believed that this
  • 00:07:17
    regime should fall but at that time we
  • 00:07:20
    didn't have the means or the experience
  • 00:07:23
    so I decided to go to wherever I could
  • 00:07:27
    gain some experience this was a at the
  • 00:07:29
    same time that the Americans were
  • 00:07:32
    preparing to enter Iraq there was a
  • 00:07:34
    strong Arab and Islamic reaction against
  • 00:07:38
    what the Americans were doing so I had
  • 00:07:41
    two reasons for going there first I saw
  • 00:07:45
    it as an opportunity to learn and gain
  • 00:07:49
    valuable experience by witnessing a
  • 00:07:52
    total war so that I could return to
  • 00:07:55
    Syria and benefit from the knowledge I
  • 00:07:57
    would gain secondly I was driven by the
  • 00:08:01
    passion and Youthful spirit I had to
  • 00:08:04
    defend the people of Iraq from
  • 00:08:07
    occupation you may not understand that
  • 00:08:10
    but you have to remember that I was a
  • 00:08:13
    young man then and I had a particular
  • 00:08:16
    mindset so I went to Iraq and worked
  • 00:08:20
    with various different groups eventually
  • 00:08:24
    these groups one by one started to
  • 00:08:27
    shrink and merge into Al
  • 00:08:30
    and that is how I found myself with
  • 00:08:33
    alqaeda and tell us about the life in
  • 00:08:35
    prison in Iraq I was put in prison early
  • 00:08:39
    on I was sent to the infamous Abu prison
  • 00:08:43
    where people were being tortured then I
  • 00:08:45
    moved to bah prison after that I was
  • 00:08:49
    moved to Copa prison in Baghdad and
  • 00:08:52
    finally to taji prison before being
  • 00:08:55
    released so during this tour of Prisons
  • 00:08:59
    I got to know a lot of people and I was
  • 00:09:01
    myself becoming more politically
  • 00:09:04
    mature so I came to say that there was a
  • 00:09:08
    big difference between what I stood for
  • 00:09:12
    and some of the ideas that I was hearing
  • 00:09:15
    from other prisoners which were really
  • 00:09:17
    shocking to me I mean this was at a time
  • 00:09:21
    when sectarian conflict was causing a
  • 00:09:24
    lot of problems in Iraq and I had no
  • 00:09:27
    part in that at all even inside prison I
  • 00:09:31
    did not operate the same way as others
  • 00:09:35
    as a result I came in for criticism from
  • 00:09:38
    some of the other prisoners who believed
  • 00:09:41
    in what later became isis's ideology
  • 00:09:45
    during my time in Iraq especially while
  • 00:09:48
    in prison I focused on planning my
  • 00:09:51
    return to Syria even before the
  • 00:09:54
    Revolution began I took to a few people
  • 00:09:57
    particularly some serious
  • 00:10:00
    who were also in prison it was by Fate
  • 00:10:03
    that I was released just two days before
  • 00:10:06
    the Syrian Revolution started as soon as
  • 00:10:09
    I could I quickly made Arrangement and
  • 00:10:12
    went back to Syria I had set some
  • 00:10:15
    conditions beforehand first that we
  • 00:10:18
    would not repeat the Iraq experience in
  • 00:10:21
    Syria we wouldn't take part in any kind
  • 00:10:24
    of sectarian War our Focus was going to
  • 00:10:28
    be on fighting the regime I came to
  • 00:10:31
    Syria with a small group of people about
  • 00:10:34
    five or six of us in a year this number
  • 00:10:38
    grew to 5,000 and I had reach across
  • 00:10:42
    almost all Syrian provinces alqaeda in
  • 00:10:46
    Iraq were surprised to see that then
  • 00:10:50
    they wanted to do in Syria what they had
  • 00:10:53
    done in Iraq which I strongly opposed
  • 00:10:56
    this led to a major conflict between us
  • 00:10:59
    during which more than 1,200 of my
  • 00:11:02
    people were killed and I lost 70% of my
  • 00:11:06
    forces we regrouped we stayed focused on
  • 00:11:10
    fighting the regime we also had to
  • 00:11:13
    tackle some threats on the margin from
  • 00:11:15
    Isis and groups like
  • 00:11:21
    [Music]
  • 00:11:23
    that it's strange for me sitting with
  • 00:11:26
    you because we were both in Iraq
  • 00:11:28
    together in 2003 but we were on
  • 00:11:31
    different sides um I was part of the
  • 00:11:34
    American British occupation and you were
  • 00:11:37
    fighting for Al-Qaeda against the
  • 00:11:38
    occupation and I never imagined I would
  • 00:11:41
    sit down uh like this to talk to you in
  • 00:11:43
    this way um what do you reflect over
  • 00:11:46
    time on this experience and looking back
  • 00:11:49
    over these years on on that
  • 00:11:54
    moment this question needs a very long
  • 00:11:57
    answer it would take about 10 episodes
  • 00:12:00
    like this one I'm willing to have that
  • 00:12:03
    discussion but given my current position
  • 00:12:06
    a brief answer to such a large question
  • 00:12:08
    would expose Syria to much criticism I
  • 00:12:11
    don't want to put Syria in that
  • 00:12:13
    situation right now I'm fully prepared
  • 00:12:16
    to answer all your questions and also
  • 00:12:19
    add some points you may not be aware of
  • 00:12:22
    but we would need ample time to do
  • 00:12:26
    justice to this question
  • 00:12:31
    both of us have been over this very
  • 00:12:33
    strange Journey over 22 years what do
  • 00:12:36
    you think it says about the fact we can
  • 00:12:38
    now sit down and talk when 22 years ago
  • 00:12:41
    we were fighting what what does this
  • 00:12:42
    mean about the
  • 00:12:43
    world and what is crucial is that
  • 00:12:47
    policies should be looked at again
  • 00:12:50
    policies need to be reviewed if we are
  • 00:12:53
    to avoid making the same
  • 00:12:55
    mistakes I often changed my own
  • 00:12:57
    decisions based on what I saw around me
  • 00:13:00
    I saw things happening that I did not
  • 00:13:03
    like and I looked again at how we were
  • 00:13:06
    doing things I wasn't a big powerful
  • 00:13:08
    decision maker then but neither was I
  • 00:13:12
    just that passionate young man who found
  • 00:13:15
    himself a member of al-Qaeda at the same
  • 00:13:18
    time Western policies towards the Middle
  • 00:13:20
    East at that time were the wrong
  • 00:13:23
    policies and needed to be changed and we
  • 00:13:27
    don't want the peoples of of the region
  • 00:13:30
    to bear the consequences of poor
  • 00:13:32
    decisions every 10
  • 00:13:36
    years would you say now you want to
  • 00:13:38
    project yourself to the world as a man
  • 00:13:40
    of peace and how do you intend to build
  • 00:13:45
    relations with countries that remain
  • 00:13:47
    very very
  • 00:13:49
    suspicious in our region we are tired of
  • 00:13:52
    war and especially in Syria Humanity
  • 00:13:56
    cannot live without peace and security
  • 00:13:59
    that's what people look for not war so
  • 00:14:03
    there are many things that can bring
  • 00:14:05
    people together and lead to Peaceful
  • 00:14:08
    Solutions without resorting to fighting
  • 00:14:11
    what unites us as a Humanity in peace is
  • 00:14:15
    far greater than what divides Us in
  • 00:14:20
    war Mr President there's a practical
  • 00:14:22
    challenge which is inside HTS the old
  • 00:14:26
    HTS were many different movements and
  • 00:14:29
    some of them are more extreme and some
  • 00:14:31
    of them maybe would be angry that you
  • 00:14:34
    are sitting down with someone like me
  • 00:14:35
    how do you manage as you become the
  • 00:14:38
    president all these old factions even
  • 00:14:40
    the more extreme
  • 00:14:42
    ones I think saying that sitting here
  • 00:14:45
    with you wouldn't be allowed is a big
  • 00:14:47
    exaggeration it's not as bad as that I
  • 00:14:50
    used persuasion and dialogue with all
  • 00:14:53
    these people until we agreed on a proper
  • 00:14:56
    and suitable formula so that we we could
  • 00:14:59
    live side by side and achieve the goals
  • 00:15:02
    of the Revolution many people agreed on
  • 00:15:05
    this and through experience awareness
  • 00:15:09
    and extensive dialogue and discussion we
  • 00:15:12
    reached very positive results without
  • 00:15:15
    having to fight each
  • 00:15:18
    other some of the people we've been
  • 00:15:20
    talking to today think that your first
  • 00:15:23
    statements were very very
  • 00:15:25
    positive very inclusive but now want to
  • 00:15:29
    see when is the National Congress going
  • 00:15:31
    to come when can they be guaranteed a
  • 00:15:34
    constitution and when might they hope to
  • 00:15:37
    see elections do you have a a clear time
  • 00:15:40
    frame in your mind for
  • 00:15:44
    that Syria is going through many stages
  • 00:15:48
    the priority was to stabilize the
  • 00:15:50
    government to prevent the state
  • 00:15:52
    institutions from collapsing we had the
  • 00:15:55
    idlib government ready to take over once
  • 00:15:58
    we seized Damascus we allowed 3 months
  • 00:16:02
    for this then we will move to the next
  • 00:16:05
    phase involving a constitutional
  • 00:16:07
    declaration the National Congress and
  • 00:16:11
    the appointment of the presidency we
  • 00:16:13
    appointed a president through
  • 00:16:15
    International conventions after
  • 00:16:17
    Consulting constitutional experts the
  • 00:16:20
    Victorious forces appointed the
  • 00:16:23
    president abolished the previous
  • 00:16:26
    Constitution and dissolved the former
  • 00:16:28
    par parament now we will move to
  • 00:16:31
    National dialogue which will involve a
  • 00:16:34
    wide range of people leading to
  • 00:16:37
    recommendations that pave the way for
  • 00:16:40
    the Declaration of a new constitution a
  • 00:16:43
    temporary Parliament will be formed and
  • 00:16:46
    this Parliament will establish a
  • 00:16:49
    constitutional committee to draft the
  • 00:16:52
    new
  • 00:16:56
    constition Mr President it must feel to
  • 00:16:58
    you like um a miracle you've been here
  • 00:17:02
    55 days and you went from idlib suddenly
  • 00:17:06
    to running the whole country what was it
  • 00:17:08
    like in those first few days what
  • 00:17:10
    surprised you what was the most
  • 00:17:12
    difficult thing about it what have you
  • 00:17:14
    learned most about yourself in the last
  • 00:17:16
    55
  • 00:17:19
    days we established all the institutions
  • 00:17:22
    in idlib that we would need and we fully
  • 00:17:25
    prepared ourselves for government in
  • 00:17:27
    terms of security and institutions and
  • 00:17:30
    Services I was certain that a day would
  • 00:17:34
    come when we would be in Damascus two or
  • 00:17:37
    three years ago I would say in my speech
  • 00:17:40
    that we would enter Damascus and the
  • 00:17:42
    Lipo and I would say this wasn't just to
  • 00:17:45
    raise morale I was speaking based on
  • 00:17:48
    data I relied on data to analyze Our Own
  • 00:17:52
    Strength the social cohesion we had in
  • 00:17:55
    idlib and compared that with the regime
  • 00:17:58
    situation
  • 00:17:59
    its economic collapse societal
  • 00:18:02
    fragmentation and the condition of its
  • 00:18:05
    Army as well as the interference of
  • 00:18:08
    foreign countries inside
  • 00:18:13
    the Mr President when I was a politician
  • 00:18:16
    I found it very difficult to go from
  • 00:18:19
    speaking quite a theoretical way and
  • 00:18:21
    then later I realized that in the world
  • 00:18:24
    of social media Twitter Facebook I
  • 00:18:26
    needed to open up and show my
  • 00:18:28
    personality more is this something that
  • 00:18:30
    you find a challenge is it difficult
  • 00:18:32
    going from being in a secret
  • 00:18:33
    organization to then having to share
  • 00:18:36
    more of your personality with your
  • 00:18:39
    people each stage has its own
  • 00:18:42
    circumstances in idlib I engaged openly
  • 00:18:45
    with people managing their Affairs and
  • 00:18:48
    meeting all segments of society so I was
  • 00:18:51
    a political figure then too though not
  • 00:18:55
    to the extent that I am now in Damascus
  • 00:18:58
    as you know there is a different
  • 00:19:00
    discourse in times of war and in times
  • 00:19:02
    of Peace it depends on the
  • 00:19:06
    circumstances and what is needed and
  • 00:19:09
    what is required of people in each
  • 00:19:13
    stage so for example I've learned to
  • 00:19:16
    speak about my children I have two sons
  • 00:19:18
    seven and nine are you going to be able
  • 00:19:21
    to talk about your sons and your family
  • 00:19:23
    will this be part of being
  • 00:19:25
    president certainly in the position I
  • 00:19:28
    hold to today my family will naturally
  • 00:19:31
    be part of the picture I don't mean they
  • 00:19:33
    will be involved in the work itself but
  • 00:19:37
    people have the right to know who my
  • 00:19:39
    family is who my children are and how we
  • 00:19:43
    live the requirements of the presidency
  • 00:19:45
    in Syria today are different from just
  • 00:19:48
    managing idlip and I believe this is a
  • 00:19:52
    part of the
  • 00:19:54
    role can you tell us a little bit about
  • 00:19:57
    your your children
  • 00:19:59
    their personalities their
  • 00:20:03
    ages I have one wife although the media
  • 00:20:06
    often says I have more but I have just
  • 00:20:09
    one and I have three children we have
  • 00:20:12
    shared living through hardships but I
  • 00:20:14
    made sure to Shield them from any
  • 00:20:17
    potential danger before we entered
  • 00:20:20
    Damascus I kept any information about
  • 00:20:23
    them private as the situation was tough
  • 00:20:26
    the war was still ongoing and security
  • 00:20:29
    concerns required Extreme
  • 00:20:35
    Caution some of the people we've spoken
  • 00:20:37
    to today they describe you I don't know
  • 00:20:39
    if this translates well but they
  • 00:20:41
    describe you as a control freak somebody
  • 00:20:43
    who has to be in control do you identify
  • 00:20:45
    with that and do you feel that in your
  • 00:20:47
    position you have to be in
  • 00:20:50
    control a person can PR evaluate
  • 00:20:53
    themselves it's better to leave judgment
  • 00:20:55
    to others than to speak about one's own
  • 00:20:58
    question qualities I like work to be
  • 00:21:00
    done well and for those doing it to be
  • 00:21:04
    conscious of their
  • 00:21:06
    responsibilities it is not about control
  • 00:21:09
    every task needs to be guided by strong
  • 00:21:12
    moral values to be done properly given
  • 00:21:16
    the challenge we have been through if we
  • 00:21:18
    hadn't maintained those values we
  • 00:21:21
    wouldn't be where we are today for
  • 00:21:24
    example when we were advancing towards
  • 00:21:27
    Damascus through alip Hama and hums we
  • 00:21:31
    had a big force of Fighters and Syria
  • 00:21:34
    was deeply divided due to the regime's
  • 00:21:38
    actions a major issue could have easily
  • 00:21:41
    Arisen putting National peace at a great
  • 00:21:45
    risk if there hadn't been control and
  • 00:21:48
    respect for leadership decisions people
  • 00:21:52
    might have taken actions that would have
  • 00:21:55
    harmed the public and destabilized
  • 00:21:58
    social order I had multiple
  • 00:22:01
    responsibilities including military
  • 00:22:03
    leadership and Community Management
  • 00:22:06
    military leadership requires a high
  • 00:22:09
    level of discipline and control while
  • 00:22:12
    Community Management Demands a totally
  • 00:22:14
    different approach I don't rule Society
  • 00:22:18
    with military theories it is a civilian
  • 00:22:21
    matter that involves distinct methods
  • 00:22:25
    and tools unlike military tactics
  • 00:22:33
    what do you think of Donald
  • 00:22:36
    Trump in the Middle East there are many
  • 00:22:39
    different views on President Trump
  • 00:22:41
    during his return from
  • 00:22:44
    2016
  • 00:22:46
    2020 I believe that Trump has brought
  • 00:22:49
    positive message during his current
  • 00:22:52
    Administration he is focused on domestic
  • 00:22:55
    policy and revitalizing the US economy
  • 00:22:58
    he is also interested in peace building
  • 00:23:00
    in the Middle East as it has caused
  • 00:23:03
    quite a bit of instability over the past
  • 00:23:06
    two decades I view this as a promising
  • 00:23:10
    start from president Trump and a
  • 00:23:12
    positive approach to both the Middle
  • 00:23:14
    East and future US policy in the region
  • 00:23:18
    I am optimistic that if the ideas
  • 00:23:21
    proposed during his campaign become
  • 00:23:24
    reality he will play a big role in
  • 00:23:27
    achieving Global Peace
  • 00:23:29
    especially in my opinion if he ends the
  • 00:23:32
    war between Russia and
  • 00:23:35
    Ukraine two things that seem to be very
  • 00:23:38
    serious about Donald Trump number one is
  • 00:23:41
    that he seems to be talking about the
  • 00:23:44
    ethnic cleansing of Gaza he's talking
  • 00:23:46
    about moving Palestinians to Egypt and
  • 00:23:49
    Jordan and then the second is the
  • 00:23:50
    question of sanctions against Syria what
  • 00:23:52
    are your opinions on these two
  • 00:23:56
    things I believe power can drive people
  • 00:23:59
    from their land many countries have
  • 00:24:02
    tried to do it and they have all failed
  • 00:24:05
    especially during the recent war in Gaza
  • 00:24:07
    over the past year and a half the people
  • 00:24:10
    endured pain killing and destruction yet
  • 00:24:14
    they refused to leave their land over 80
  • 00:24:17
    years of this conflict all attempts to
  • 00:24:20
    displace them have failed those who left
  • 00:24:23
    have regretted their decision the
  • 00:24:26
    Palestinian lesson that every generation
  • 00:24:29
    has learned is the importance of holding
  • 00:24:32
    on to their land it would be neither
  • 00:24:35
    wise nor morally or politically right
  • 00:24:38
    for Trump to lead an effort to force
  • 00:24:41
    Palestinians out of their land in my
  • 00:24:44
    view why is he pushing Mexicans out of
  • 00:24:47
    America now he is doing the same thing I
  • 00:24:51
    believe this is a serious crime that
  • 00:24:53
    will ultimately fail
  • 00:24:58
    and sanctions sanctions against
  • 00:25:01
    Syria sanctions were imposed on the
  • 00:25:04
    previous regime during its systematic
  • 00:25:07
    crimes including mass killings some
  • 00:25:10
    documents were made public and the US
  • 00:25:13
    reacted by imposing
  • 00:25:15
    sanctions now that we have dismantled
  • 00:25:18
    the regime and its presence these
  • 00:25:20
    sanctions should be lifted as there is
  • 00:25:23
    no justification for them after the fall
  • 00:25:26
    of the regim
  • 00:25:29
    what are you doing to get those
  • 00:25:30
    sanctions lifted what's your strategy to
  • 00:25:33
    get those sanctions lifted well there is
  • 00:25:36
    a strong International consensus with
  • 00:25:38
    everyone who has visited Damascus
  • 00:25:41
    recently agreeing that sanctions should
  • 00:25:43
    be lifted Syria is currently facing
  • 00:25:46
    major security challenges and one of the
  • 00:25:50
    Direct Solutions is through economic
  • 00:25:53
    development that is what we are focusing
  • 00:25:57
    on now without economic growth there can
  • 00:26:00
    be no stability and without stability we
  • 00:26:03
    risk creating an environment that
  • 00:26:07
    Fosters Kus and insecurity all of these
  • 00:26:11
    issues are interconnected and must be
  • 00:26:14
    addressed
  • 00:26:16
    together Mr President which country's
  • 00:26:19
    economic model interests you most for
  • 00:26:22
    example Singapore Malaysia can you name
  • 00:26:25
    one country which you're looking at and
  • 00:26:27
    what are you learning from it in terms
  • 00:26:29
    of economic
  • 00:26:31
    management I've reviewed several
  • 00:26:33
    countries that have experienced economic
  • 00:26:36
    growth like Singapore Saudi Arabia
  • 00:26:40
    Brazil at certain points and Rwanda
  • 00:26:43
    which overcame significant challenges to
  • 00:26:45
    its development each country has its
  • 00:26:49
    unique context shaped by its specific
  • 00:26:52
    challenges and stage of development
  • 00:26:55
    while we can draw valuable lessons from
  • 00:26:57
    these examp numes we shouldn't blindly
  • 00:27:00
    replicate them instead we need to adapt
  • 00:27:03
    and blend these lessons to create an
  • 00:27:06
    approach that fits Syria's unique
  • 00:27:12
    situation is is there any part of you
  • 00:27:14
    that is overo overwhelmed by the scale
  • 00:27:18
    of the challenge you've got a country
  • 00:27:20
    with the shattered
  • 00:27:22
    economy electricity Supply difficult oil
  • 00:27:25
    supplies difficult public serves
  • 00:27:28
    unemployment you've got a massive
  • 00:27:30
    challenge is there not a part of you
  • 00:27:32
    that just thinks I wish somebody else
  • 00:27:34
    was doing
  • 00:27:37
    this yes we inherited an exhausted
  • 00:27:40
    country and the regime destroyed
  • 00:27:43
    everything before we took it over but
  • 00:27:46
    this is the challenge we syrians must
  • 00:27:48
    face we must rebuild our country and we
  • 00:27:52
    do not shy away from this
  • 00:27:54
    responsibility there are many issues but
  • 00:27:57
    a clear mind tells us we must separate
  • 00:28:00
    them and address them one by one and set
  • 00:28:04
    priorities so we can succeed and grow
  • 00:28:08
    nothing is impossible despite
  • 00:28:11
    difficulties with God's will we as
  • 00:28:14
    syrians are capable of rising up
  • 00:28:18
    rebuilding our country and making it a
  • 00:28:21
    regional and the global success story in
  • 00:28:24
    the future God willing
  • 00:28:29
    Mr President One Challenge is that many
  • 00:28:34
    of the people from the old Security
  • 00:28:37
    Service police and army have now left
  • 00:28:39
    and it reminds me a little bit of
  • 00:28:42
    deification in Iraq and deification in
  • 00:28:45
    Iraq was a big problem because the
  • 00:28:48
    security the Army intelligence went into
  • 00:28:50
    the resistance and started fighting the
  • 00:28:52
    government how are you going to deal
  • 00:28:53
    with this problem because even today in
  • 00:28:55
    Damascus many of the policemen are from
  • 00:28:57
    idlib
  • 00:29:00
    first of all there are big differences
  • 00:29:02
    between the situation in Syria and in
  • 00:29:05
    Iraq comparisons always show up big
  • 00:29:08
    differences first I did not dissolve the
  • 00:29:11
    Syrian Army without having an
  • 00:29:14
    alternative I brought the alternative
  • 00:29:16
    with me an existing institution and a
  • 00:29:19
    military academy that produces officers
  • 00:29:23
    there were many defected former officers
  • 00:29:26
    who are now gradually rejoining the
  • 00:29:29
    current Ministry of Defense the former
  • 00:29:32
    regime's Army did not resemble the Iraqi
  • 00:29:35
    Army it was fragmented with many
  • 00:29:37
    militias and foreign interventions from
  • 00:29:40
    Iran and Russia the Army was fragmented
  • 00:29:43
    and collapsed a large number of young
  • 00:29:46
    men were fleeing Syria to escape
  • 00:29:48
    mandatory conscription so the Army did
  • 00:29:52
    not have much significance for syrians
  • 00:29:55
    today I did not impose mandator
  • 00:29:58
    conscription in Syria instead I opted
  • 00:30:01
    for voluntary enlistment and today
  • 00:30:05
    thousands are joining the new Syrian
  • 00:30:10
    Army when you were a fighter did you do
  • 00:30:13
    anything that you
  • 00:30:16
    regret I was very careful to ensure that
  • 00:30:19
    no civilians were harmed in our battles
  • 00:30:23
    despite widespread popular calls to
  • 00:30:26
    Target the cities and Villages held by
  • 00:30:29
    the regime just as they relentlessly
  • 00:30:32
    bombed towns and cities outside their
  • 00:30:34
    control we refused to do the same for
  • 00:30:38
    nearly 14 years we endured systematic
  • 00:30:41
    bumping of our Villages and towns
  • 00:30:44
    without ever retaliating against the
  • 00:30:47
    regime in kind I focused on targeting
  • 00:30:51
    the regime's core strengths such as the
  • 00:30:54
    Army and the security forces and other
  • 00:30:57
    groups GRS it relied on to fight the
  • 00:31:00
    people I avoided any side battles all
  • 00:31:04
    together it's natural for a person to
  • 00:31:07
    make mistakes and then correct them it
  • 00:31:10
    is very important to be at peace with
  • 00:31:13
    oneself to review one's actions at every
  • 00:31:16
    stage identify mistakes and most
  • 00:31:20
    importantly not repeat them this has
  • 00:31:23
    been my approach to our work I don't
  • 00:31:26
    claim to be fre of mistakes quite the
  • 00:31:30
    opposite we made some mistakes but they
  • 00:31:33
    never reached the point of Haring
  • 00:31:40
    civilians what is the psychological
  • 00:31:44
    impact of living a life which has been
  • 00:31:47
    secret for 20 years what what does that
  • 00:31:51
    mean for your your mind your body your
  • 00:31:53
    soul to have to live a a secret life for
  • 00:31:57
    20 years
  • 00:32:01
    it wasn't secret in the sense of being
  • 00:32:03
    hidden and out of sight Around the Clock
  • 00:32:06
    I had a lot to do with daily meetings
  • 00:32:09
    all day round along with the time
  • 00:32:12
    allocated for public
  • 00:32:14
    relations I wasn't hiding in the way
  • 00:32:17
    some might imagine except in certain
  • 00:32:20
    situations involving battles or War
  • 00:32:23
    which required caution hence I did not
  • 00:32:26
    live a life isolated from people at all
  • 00:32:30
    I lived alongside them while keeping
  • 00:32:32
    some matters
  • 00:32:34
    confidential now in my new position I
  • 00:32:37
    don't mind sharing this with everyone
  • 00:32:40
    because the were conditions we faced
  • 00:32:43
    before have completely changed and we
  • 00:32:46
    are in a new phase
  • 00:32:50
    today but there was a $10 million bounty
  • 00:32:54
    on your head it must have been very
  • 00:32:55
    difficult to trust people if the
  • 00:32:57
    American government government was going
  • 00:32:58
    to pay someone $10 million for killing
  • 00:33:00
    you it must have been stressful I mean
  • 00:33:02
    stressful it must have been uh very
  • 00:33:04
    difficult
  • 00:33:06
    yeah idli was very open to people I
  • 00:33:09
    would meet with delegations from abroad
  • 00:33:11
    and had many interactions with
  • 00:33:14
    journalists I also had regular meetings
  • 00:33:17
    with universities professors and various
  • 00:33:20
    Ministries I was committed to serving
  • 00:33:23
    the people defending them building
  • 00:33:26
    Institutions and working towards
  • 00:33:29
    reaching Damascus to topple this regime
  • 00:33:32
    and set the Syrian people free while
  • 00:33:35
    performing my duties I did not give much
  • 00:33:38
    consideration to the $10 million Bounty
  • 00:33:41
    I didn't believe anyone would seek this
  • 00:33:43
    bounty by killing a person who was
  • 00:33:46
    dedicated to serving the
  • 00:33:51
    people do you still consider yourself to
  • 00:33:53
    be a revolutionary
  • 00:33:57
    I believe that a revolutionary mindset
  • 00:34:00
    cannot build a country you need a
  • 00:34:02
    different mindset when it comes to
  • 00:34:04
    building a country and managing an
  • 00:34:07
    entire Society for me the revolution in
  • 00:34:11
    its previous sense ended with the
  • 00:34:14
    overthrow of the regime now we have
  • 00:34:18
    moved on to a new phase which involves
  • 00:34:21
    rebuilding the country Economic
  • 00:34:23
    Development striving for regional
  • 00:34:26
    stability and security reassuring
  • 00:34:30
    neighboring countries and establishing
  • 00:34:33
    strategic relationships between Syria
  • 00:34:36
    and Western countries as well as
  • 00:34:39
    Regional
  • 00:34:42
    countries did you always want to be
  • 00:34:44
    president even when you a fighter were
  • 00:34:46
    you thinking this is part of politics I
  • 00:34:49
    want to go and I want to run the country
  • 00:34:51
    you thinking that back
  • 00:34:53
    then whoever lives through an experience
  • 00:34:56
    like ours doesn't care much about what
  • 00:34:59
    positions they get we are living in
  • 00:35:02
    times where the leader makes the
  • 00:35:05
    position it is not the position that
  • 00:35:07
    makes the leader we faced major
  • 00:35:10
    challenges and we needed a high level of
  • 00:35:13
    moral Integrity to reach where we are
  • 00:35:17
    today aiming for the presidency as an
  • 00:35:20
    end goal is the wrong mentality we focus
  • 00:35:24
    on serving the people regardless of the
  • 00:35:30
    position final question for me when you
  • 00:35:33
    see what the Western media says about
  • 00:35:37
    you what makes you angry and what do you
  • 00:35:40
    think they don't understand about what
  • 00:35:42
    you're doing I don't maybe have time to
  • 00:35:44
    follow Western
  • 00:35:46
    media but Syria is a crucial country
  • 00:35:49
    with a strategic location that has a
  • 00:35:52
    global impact previously the regime
  • 00:35:56
    intentionally displaced people to Europe
  • 00:35:59
    and the trafficked captagon to both
  • 00:36:01
    Europe and the region it also used
  • 00:36:04
    Damascus as a base for steering broader
  • 00:36:08
    instability in the region because of the
  • 00:36:10
    very negative role that certain other
  • 00:36:13
    countries were playing inside Syria
  • 00:36:16
    today Syria's situation has changed
  • 00:36:20
    drastically becoming a new region with a
  • 00:36:23
    promising future it will play a major
  • 00:36:26
    role in region
  • 00:36:28
    stability sustained through Economic
  • 00:36:31
    Development Syria will also be a key Hub
  • 00:36:35
    in sectors like agriculture industry and
  • 00:36:39
    trade it is situated on the historic
  • 00:36:42
    Silk Road trade between East and the
  • 00:36:45
    West will again Thrive the West should
  • 00:36:48
    reconsider its view of Syria from this
  • 00:36:55
    angle Mr President thank you we we
  • 00:36:57
    really appreciate it and very good luck
  • 00:36:59
    on your trip to Turkey tomorrow well uh
  • 00:37:02
    a discussion like this requires us to be
  • 00:37:04
    a bit more relaxed I mean more than this
  • 00:37:08
    today they took advantage of our fatigue
  • 00:37:11
    next time I will come well rested and
  • 00:37:14
    fully
  • 00:37:16
    awake inshah next time we can sit done
  • 00:37:19
    thank you so much thank you very
  • 00:37:22
    much well aliser it was quite an event I
  • 00:37:26
    mean sitting there with him and his with
  • 00:37:27
    his beautiful gold tie and suit and both
  • 00:37:30
    of us implicate in the Iraq War and him
  • 00:37:33
    as an Al-Qaeda Iraq man now become a
  • 00:37:35
    presidential leader it was also I
  • 00:37:38
    suppose probably for listeners
  • 00:37:40
    frustrating in bits I mean I think as he
  • 00:37:42
    makes this transition from Secret
  • 00:37:44
    terrorist to public
  • 00:37:45
    politician there's still many things
  • 00:37:47
    he's not opening up about I think you
  • 00:37:50
    said afterwards that one of the things
  • 00:37:51
    was striking is that we're the first
  • 00:37:54
    people I think who've got him to admit
  • 00:37:55
    on record that he has three children but
  • 00:37:59
    we still don't know you know are they
  • 00:38:01
    boys they girls what are their ages and
  • 00:38:03
    I tried a couple of times to prompt him
  • 00:38:05
    on that and boy was he not quite sharing
  • 00:38:08
    uh what the details of those things are
  • 00:38:10
    but I think this goes back to this point
  • 00:38:12
    of being on a journey he actually said
  • 00:38:14
    and you said when we were there that the
  • 00:38:17
    wives and he was very adamant he only
  • 00:38:19
    has one wife because there there are
  • 00:38:21
    still all these rumors that he has
  • 00:38:22
    several wives and he's adamant he's got
  • 00:38:24
    one wife and three children but you were
  • 00:38:27
    make the point that wives and children
  • 00:38:29
    of these leaders are seen as legitimate
  • 00:38:32
    targets and therefore he went to Great
  • 00:38:35
    length to make sure nobody knew not just
  • 00:38:37
    who they were but where they were but
  • 00:38:38
    he's now saying so for example when we
  • 00:38:41
    were there he did an event with his wife
  • 00:38:44
    his brother who's the health Minister
  • 00:38:47
    which itself raises one of two questions
  • 00:38:49
    but while we were there he and his wife
  • 00:38:52
    who is a Russian went to the Opera and
  • 00:38:57
    was sort of fated as they as they
  • 00:38:59
    arrived as they were being seen because
  • 00:39:00
    people were fascinated to see this guy
  • 00:39:02
    out with his wife so I think they accept
  • 00:39:06
    that is going to become part of this
  • 00:39:08
    what I thought was was fascinating was
  • 00:39:11
    how you said in the interview at one
  • 00:39:13
    point look this is a bit weird for me
  • 00:39:14
    because essentially I'm paraphrasing you
  • 00:39:17
    lot were trying to kill me and you felt
  • 00:39:19
    that we were trying to kill you and
  • 00:39:21
    although he says he doesn't speak
  • 00:39:23
    English I could tell that he was
  • 00:39:25
    understanding your question even before
  • 00:39:27
    The Interpreter came in but I think even
  • 00:39:30
    on stuff like that he was basically
  • 00:39:32
    saying okay I could really get into a
  • 00:39:34
    long justification of why I fought in
  • 00:39:36
    Iraq why you people were the aggressors
  • 00:39:39
    ETC but he just kind of took a deep
  • 00:39:41
    breath sat back and started to talk
  • 00:39:43
    about the future again very very
  • 00:39:45
    political and I mean doubtless uh
  • 00:39:47
    there'll be people in his team who will
  • 00:39:49
    be crossed with our tone but we really
  • 00:39:51
    hope that we can follow through on his
  • 00:39:53
    offer which is that he's offered to do a
  • 00:39:55
    10-part series with us
  • 00:39:58
    on Al-Qaeda on the history of and the
  • 00:40:00
    various formulations if he's serious
  • 00:40:02
    about that it would be unbelievable
  • 00:40:03
    because he is the most senior
  • 00:40:06
    surviving member of al-Qaeda worldwide I
  • 00:40:10
    mean he's almost the only person who can
  • 00:40:12
    give us a blowby blow I mean most of the
  • 00:40:14
    the other leadership are dead yeah
  • 00:40:16
    they've all been killed yeah his
  • 00:40:18
    immediate final boss I mean obviously
  • 00:40:19
    Baghdad he was killed Abu mus Al zaka
  • 00:40:22
    was killed Bin Laden was killed but the
  • 00:40:24
    man that he eventually pledged
  • 00:40:26
    allegiance to who was was called zahari
  • 00:40:29
    was killed by the Americans in cabal
  • 00:40:31
    quite recently after of course having
  • 00:40:34
    lost uh a wife and children in in
  • 00:40:37
    various different attacks which which
  • 00:40:39
    relates to your your previous point was
  • 00:40:40
    also I I thought going back to our days
  • 00:40:42
    in
  • 00:40:43
    government what it really reminds me of
  • 00:40:45
    these kind of interviews in their sort
  • 00:40:48
    of stiffness and their small Clues is
  • 00:40:51
    something that we used to call
  • 00:40:52
    sovietology which is when the Kremlin
  • 00:40:55
    was at its most guarded
  • 00:40:58
    you'd have people peering at exactly who
  • 00:41:00
    was appearing on the podium at the
  • 00:41:01
    national day parades and who was up and
  • 00:41:03
    who was down so we're really getting
  • 00:41:05
    into these sort of tiny micro moments
  • 00:41:08
    for example this very moving moment
  • 00:41:10
    where he talks about how beautiful the
  • 00:41:11
    history of old Damascus is and how he
  • 00:41:13
    used to walk the streets and look at the
  • 00:41:15
    buildings history pours out of every
  • 00:41:17
    wall talking in a much more sort of
  • 00:41:19
    poetical language but then when you ask
  • 00:41:22
    him to talk about his father and his
  • 00:41:23
    father's revolutionary struggle he
  • 00:41:26
    suddenly begins sound in like a sort of
  • 00:41:28
    1960s revolutionary theorist he says
  • 00:41:32
    this is not the moment I don't know how
  • 00:41:34
    how the Arabic was eventually translated
  • 00:41:35
    but something like not the moment of
  • 00:41:36
    revolutionary prais you know the the
  • 00:41:39
    hegan moment had not yet arrived rather
  • 00:41:42
    than what I was hoping I would draw out
  • 00:41:43
    which is saying you know in the end the
  • 00:41:45
    needed to be a religious element you
  • 00:41:46
    can't just do it on a secular basis Arab
  • 00:41:48
    nationalism is finished I thought what
  • 00:41:50
    he was trying to say there was that well
  • 00:41:51
    my father was wrong but he just didn't
  • 00:41:53
    realize it but he didn't want to say
  • 00:41:54
    that his father was wrong because he
  • 00:41:55
    wanted to respect his respect his his
  • 00:41:58
    father I guess the fundamental question
  • 00:42:01
    that was sort of playing around in my
  • 00:42:02
    head the whole time I did keep thinking
  • 00:42:04
    of Jerry Adams and Martin mcginness and
  • 00:42:06
    not because of Any you know sort of
  • 00:42:09
    weird comparison but just can you go
  • 00:42:12
    from b as I believe Adams and mcginness
  • 00:42:14
    did and I know that some people still
  • 00:42:16
    won't accept that and but can you go
  • 00:42:18
    from being somebody who really believes
  • 00:42:20
    that violence is the way to achieve your
  • 00:42:23
    objectives actually to saying that was
  • 00:42:26
    then now is now and with him in
  • 00:42:29
    particular and this maybe applies more
  • 00:42:31
    to Martin mcginness and Jerry Adams
  • 00:42:33
    because mcginness became an actual
  • 00:42:36
    politician with actual political power
  • 00:42:39
    is whether you can not just make that
  • 00:42:43
    move psychologically but just as
  • 00:42:45
    important can you persuade other people
  • 00:42:47
    that that is real because these world
  • 00:42:49
    leaders that he's now trying to talk to
  • 00:42:50
    and persu to LIF sanctions or going to
  • 00:42:52
    Saudi and trying to get financial
  • 00:42:53
    support whatever it might be he's got to
  • 00:42:56
    persuade them
  • 00:42:57
    that he is genuine in taking a different
  • 00:43:00
    path and I think one of the the big
  • 00:43:02
    giveaways there is is that moment when
  • 00:43:04
    I'm trying to get him to focus on his
  • 00:43:06
    experience in Iraq and he says this is
  • 00:43:09
    too complicated there's too much Nuance
  • 00:43:11
    here can we do a 10 parts series on it
  • 00:43:14
    and that I think relates to your point
  • 00:43:15
    about different audiences there is huge
  • 00:43:17
    pressure on him to say to people like us
  • 00:43:21
    I completely reject a lot of my former
  • 00:43:24
    terrorist comrades and you know he he
  • 00:43:26
    might even be tempted who knows to say
  • 00:43:28
    to people like us look these people in
  • 00:43:30
    the end went too far they were extreme
  • 00:43:32
    they were fundamentalists they were
  • 00:43:34
    unrealistic they didn't understand the
  • 00:43:35
    modern world but he can't say that
  • 00:43:39
    because he's also got another audience
  • 00:43:41
    which is his Fighters who've been with
  • 00:43:42
    him for over 20 years and he doesn't
  • 00:43:45
    want to insult them we saw that with the
  • 00:43:47
    Jerry Adams interview I noticed you know
  • 00:43:50
    when I tried to say to Jerrys look I
  • 00:43:52
    understand you know you might want to
  • 00:43:53
    have killed someone like me who was a
  • 00:43:54
    briefly a young Soldier when you were
  • 00:43:56
    fighting but do you regret killing
  • 00:43:59
    civilians in the Brighton bombing and he
  • 00:44:02
    basically said no and the reason
  • 00:44:04
    presumably he says no is that he feels a
  • 00:44:06
    huge allegiance to the people who fought
  • 00:44:09
    with him and he wouldn't want the
  • 00:44:10
    headline to be Jerry Adams says that
  • 00:44:13
    what the IRA did in the 1980s was wrong
  • 00:44:15
    so uh yeah final question for you Alisa
  • 00:44:19
    I mean I guess the obvious thing that
  • 00:44:21
    will happen with this interview is that
  • 00:44:23
    there will be a lot of people presumably
  • 00:44:25
    The Daily Telegraph and daily m predict
  • 00:44:27
    immediately will say we are terrorist
  • 00:44:29
    sympathizers who've just given a huge
  • 00:44:32
    platform to the former head of alqaeda
  • 00:44:35
    Syria and allowed him to speak and we
  • 00:44:38
    weren't Tough Enough we didn't challenge
  • 00:44:39
    him enough and that we're like a George
  • 00:44:42
    Galloway going out to see Saddam Hussein
  • 00:44:43
    what what was it Galloway said about
  • 00:44:45
    Saddam Hussein again I salute your
  • 00:44:47
    strength your courage and your
  • 00:44:49
    indefatigability that's right we didn't
  • 00:44:51
    do that we did not do that I don't know
  • 00:44:54
    about that it's his age-old problem and
  • 00:44:56
    I think one of of the one of the things
  • 00:44:57
    I like about doing this podcast and
  • 00:44:59
    doing the interviews the way that we do
  • 00:45:01
    them I've been so through the pain
  • 00:45:04
    barrier with most of our media I don't
  • 00:45:05
    care what they think about the way we do
  • 00:45:07
    the interview we got more time than we
  • 00:45:09
    expected but if we I think if we'd have
  • 00:45:12
    just sort of said okay then come on tell
  • 00:45:13
    us how many suicide bombers did you send
  • 00:45:15
    into action um he's going to say what he
  • 00:45:18
    said anyway and you know you and I both
  • 00:45:21
    raised an eyebrow when he said you know
  • 00:45:23
    I always made sure that civilian
  • 00:45:25
    population was protected Etc etc etc so
  • 00:45:27
    it's quite hard to to square all that
  • 00:45:30
    look the other thing I think people
  • 00:45:31
    should be aware of is that his past we
  • 00:45:36
    know about and the people we spoke to in
  • 00:45:38
    Syria lots of the people we spoke to in
  • 00:45:39
    Syria said listen we know who he was we
  • 00:45:42
    know what he was but let me say he is
  • 00:45:45
    better than what we had because what we
  • 00:45:48
    had we had no hope that things were ever
  • 00:45:50
    going to improve because they were just
  • 00:45:52
    a kleptocratic dictatorship what we have
  • 00:45:55
    now at least we have a a hope that it
  • 00:45:58
    can be different and so and the question
  • 00:46:00
    then is how much time does he have as a
  • 00:46:03
    quotes normal political leader to try to
  • 00:46:06
    get a country on its feet this economy
  • 00:46:08
    has been absolutely shattered and the
  • 00:46:10
    stakes couldn't be higher so my Syrian
  • 00:46:12
    friends who are
  • 00:46:14
    absolutely secular liberal utterly
  • 00:46:17
    opposed to that terrorist tradition are
  • 00:46:20
    saying give the guy a chance you've got
  • 00:46:22
    to give him a chance it's the only
  • 00:46:24
    chance we've got we have to lift
  • 00:46:27
    sanctions we have to take this
  • 00:46:29
    opportunity and as sort of warning us
  • 00:46:32
    not to spend our whole time saying
  • 00:46:35
    nobody can change this guy's a terrorist
  • 00:46:37
    because their view is if you take that
  • 00:46:39
    line Syria is completely doomed yeah
  • 00:46:41
    absolutely I think the the other thing
  • 00:46:44
    that some of the experts would have been
  • 00:46:46
    maybe listening for that they would want
  • 00:46:47
    to have heard more about is the rout to
  • 00:46:49
    elections still I think quite vague The
  • 00:46:52
    Interpreter in the room did look
  • 00:46:55
    slightly terrified when translated by a
  • 00:46:57
    question about whether he was a control
  • 00:47:01
    freak I think The Interpreter was
  • 00:47:03
    worried that they would think that was
  • 00:47:05
    their view rather than than our view but
  • 00:47:08
    we did hear that a lot didn't we we
  • 00:47:09
    heard a lot of people saying this is a
  • 00:47:10
    guy who has to be in control but when he
  • 00:47:14
    did cross the border with a handful of
  • 00:47:15
    people very interesting one of them was
  • 00:47:18
    the foreign minister that I mentioned
  • 00:47:20
    who we met in Davos and he was in the
  • 00:47:22
    room while the interview was going on
  • 00:47:23
    and they are clearly very very close I
  • 00:47:25
    mean they were they were were talking
  • 00:47:27
    before they were talking afterwards you
  • 00:47:29
    know the fact that he was there um so I
  • 00:47:32
    think that's a very very interesting and
  • 00:47:33
    important relationship that people will
  • 00:47:36
    be keeping an eye on as it were anyway I
  • 00:47:38
    hope people enjoyed that I hope that
  • 00:47:40
    they found it interesting educative and
  • 00:47:44
    anything else the hope he's sincere when
  • 00:47:46
    he says that he' like us to go back and
  • 00:47:47
    do 10 episodes on the history of
  • 00:47:49
    al-Qaeda well thank you aliser bye-bye
  • 00:47:52
    see you soon bye
  • 00:47:55
    [Music]
Tags
  • Syria
  • Al-Qaeda
  • leadership
  • politics
  • peace
  • revolution
  • interview
  • governance
  • economy
  • diplomacy