00:00:00
[TYPING NOISES]
00:00:09
- There is a feeling,
I think, amongst
00:00:11
most if not all
of us that, like,
00:00:13
whatever this game
turned out to be,
00:00:15
or was, had to be
at least as good
00:00:18
as Bastion, so there
was that pressure.
00:00:21
DANNY: Transistor
obviously went through
00:00:24
a pretty significant
redesign and a
00:00:26
lot of sort of, like,
creative struggles
00:00:28
to try and find
its feet.
00:00:31
DANNY: Can you tell us
about that time
00:00:33
the story it originally had,
and kind of
00:00:35
where you
ended up?
00:00:36
- [LAUGHS]
What?
00:00:38
- Yeah, but like,
how much
00:00:40
have they revealed
to you?
00:00:44
- Yeah. Ooh, boy, Um.
00:00:48
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:01:02
- We were done with
Bastion in, like, May,
00:01:04
even though it didn't
come out until July
00:01:06
in the year 2011.
So we'd been done with
00:01:09
Bastion for
a long time.
00:01:10
We only started talking
about Transistor seriously
00:01:12
in September of that year
so all this time
00:01:14
we're kind of on
pins and needles,
00:01:16
both kind of
cooling off
00:01:18
from having worked,
from having pushed ourselves
00:01:21
to make Bastion the
best it could be
00:01:23
And also, like,
realizing that
00:01:26
yeah, we could
make something else.
00:01:29
So the conversat--
The kind of
00:01:31
official conversations
about what our
00:01:33
next game would be
didn't start for
00:01:35
quite some time.
We quite quickly
00:01:37
decided that we
wanted to make
00:01:39
something new.
It might have been
00:01:41
the kind of
fiscally responsible,
00:01:45
decision to just,
like, make a Bastion 2
00:01:48
in light of the success
of the first one,
00:01:50
but we never thought
of Supergiant
00:01:53
as like, the
Bastion studio.
00:01:55
Bastion was just
our expression of
00:01:57
the kind of game
we wanted to make,
00:01:59
the kind of work
we wanted to do.
00:02:00
But it was not like,
oh, we must make
00:02:02
this one game, and
this is our, like,
00:02:04
one great idea
that we've been
00:02:07
stewing on all
our lives.
00:02:08
We, like, many of
this ideas of Bastion
00:02:11
just happened, you know,
while we were working
00:02:13
on the game, so
it's like, hey, we
00:02:16
made this thing up,
and people liked it.
00:02:19
Let's see if we could
do that again
00:02:21
and make another
game that can assert
00:02:23
its own identity strongly,
leave players with a
00:02:27
lasting and positive
impression, and have
00:02:29
like a strong world-building
and atmosphere,
00:02:32
and interesting gameplay,
and all the pieces
00:02:34
would feel complete
in their own right.
00:02:36
And yet, it would
be very distinct
00:02:38
from Bastion.
00:02:40
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:02:44
- We kind of wanted to make
a sci-fi love story,
00:02:46
and we wanted a game
that had more
00:02:49
tactical pleasures while
still building on
00:02:51
everything we learned
with Bastion.
00:02:53
Challenges of Transistor at the
beginning were twofold.
00:02:55
The first thing was
how do we make
00:02:58
a game now that all the
team members are here?
00:03:00
'Cause now our creative
process from the start
00:03:02
has to incorporate
all seven members
00:03:04
of this team. And we
actually decided we wanted
00:03:06
to grow our team, too.
So we had to incorporate more
00:03:08
voices and visions
in the room from the very
00:03:10
beginning, and we'd never
done that before.
00:03:12
And so Transistor was
the first time we had to
00:03:14
start a game together, and
that took a really long time.
00:03:16
Pre-production for the game was
like 19 or 20 months.
00:03:19
We were struggling with the
world. We were struggling
00:03:21
with the main character.
We were struggling with
00:03:23
the integration of voiceover,
with the musical
00:03:25
voice, with the gameplay,
with the meta game,
00:03:28
with the length, with the
number of characters,
00:03:31
with the process. You know,
we were working
00:03:34
out of an office in
San Francisco now.
00:03:36
Everything was different, and
how could it be so
00:03:38
different, 'cause it's all
the same people
00:03:40
working on the game?
00:03:41
- Just that litany
of really hard
00:03:46
to solve creative and
design problems
00:03:50
all throughout that game.
And part of what
00:03:52
made it hard for us
is that we were
00:03:54
so concerned with
Transistor asserting its
00:03:59
own strong identity
that really good
00:04:02
solutions that we developed
for Bastion
00:04:04
we felt were
off the table.
00:04:06
We can't do that 'cause
that's Bastion's thing.
00:04:09
We have to come up
with another solution.
00:04:11
And Bastion was, like,
our entire life experience
00:04:14
good-- Like, all the good
ideas we ever had
00:04:16
we put into Bastion.
And then it's like,
00:04:19
now try to come up with
some more good ones
00:04:21
without using any of
the ones that you did
00:04:24
on your last game.
00:04:25
AMIR: We explored, like,
a bunch of different
00:04:27
camera angles, and then
came to the one
00:04:29
we liked, and, you know
part of that was us struggling
00:04:31
with putting a game
in a city. We don't just
00:04:33
want to look at rooftops.
You know, you play RTS games,
00:04:35
you only looking at ceilings.
Like, we gotta get
00:04:37
more character into the city.
It needs to have, like, all this
00:04:40
blah, blah, blah. We
settle on a camera angle.
00:04:42
It looks almost the
same as the camera
00:04:44
angle in Bastion, and
that took forever.
00:04:46
You know? And I can't
say, oh, that's
00:04:49
Bastion's fault. You know,
that's us learning and
00:04:51
growing over time. But there was
all these kinds of pressures.
00:04:53
The second thing that was
very challenging about
00:04:55
Transistor is something we didn't
talk about much, which is like,
00:04:58
the invisible pressure
of Bastion.
00:05:00
We had made something that
turned out to be
00:05:02
really, really, well liked.
And now we didn't want
00:05:04
to let people down.
Now we had rent
00:05:06
and health insurance.
[LAUGHS]
00:05:07
And we didn't want to,
like, have our company
00:05:09
just end, 'cause
everything felt like
00:05:11
it should be something
that could last.
00:05:14
- We never spoke
about the whole
00:05:16
like, sophomore slump
thing through the
00:05:17
three years of development
on Transistor.
00:05:20
But I bet we were all,
like, in the back of our--
00:05:22
It's part of why, it was like
the elephant in the room.
00:05:24
It was like, well,
don't screw this up.
00:05:31
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:05:39
Having made a kind of
very arcadey
00:05:41
like, pick up and play
game in Bastion,
00:05:43
we were like, hey, let's
make things a little
00:05:45
bit more deliberate,
suspenseful,
00:05:47
and let's basically
see if we can
00:05:50
infuse, like, a
strategic component
00:05:52
into our action
RPG mix,
00:05:54
almost like a tactical,
turn-based tactical game.
00:05:56
You know, we were thinking about
like X-COM and Advance Wars,
00:05:59
stuff like that. Can we
infuse that type
00:06:01
of drama, where you,
like, hit that
00:06:03
enter in button, and you're like,
oh my god, am I gonna--
00:06:05
Is this going to be a total
disaster? Like, get that
00:06:07
kind of drama into the
moment to moment play.
00:06:10
- How can we get the
feelings of turn-based
00:06:13
combat without necessarily
making a turn-based
00:06:15
combat game? So that
was mostly what we were
00:06:17
going for. And we tried
a lot of different things.
00:06:19
And one of the hardest things
for us to manage
00:06:22
in that combat style
was how, like,
00:06:25
when is the enemy turn?
Like, when is the enemy phase?
00:06:28
Because if you can plan
out all your moves,
00:06:30
like, when does the enemy
have a chance to
00:06:33
to strike, and how
do you play
00:06:35
defense in a game with
the ability to
00:06:39
kind of plan out
your actions?
00:06:40
- The transistor itself
was not a
00:06:44
factor in the
story at all.
00:06:46
For a long time,
the name Transistor
00:06:49
was not there. We
were like, prototyping
00:06:51
the story and starting
to get levels
00:06:55
up and running,
and kind of--
00:06:57
But, man. It was,
it was just not
00:06:59
happening. We were
not feeling it.
00:07:01
We were trying to
kind of concept
00:07:03
this protagonist character
and this partner character.
00:07:07
- The original character was
initially meant to be
00:07:10
a boxer, someone
who fought with
00:07:12
his fists, which,
you know, I
00:07:14
think everyone was into.
Greg and I
00:07:17
were both into it.
Like, we both have
00:07:19
our favorite boxer
characters for, like,
00:07:21
Street Fighter, anime. There's tons
of awesome dudes who
00:07:24
fight with their fist.
He was a boxer
00:07:28
with a spirit friend, because,
again, we had a
00:07:34
one player game in Bastion,
or a single protagonist
00:07:37
game where you were
kind of alone
00:07:39
in the world. And
in Transistor,
00:07:41
I think we may have thought, like
this was our one where we
00:07:45
could make you feel
less alone.
00:07:47
- So Red was not the original
protagonist of the game.
00:07:49
The transistor guy was.
There is a theory that
00:07:54
maybe players were
kind of slow to
00:07:58
latch onto Bastion
because they may have
00:08:00
been dismissing it as
like, a kids' game.
00:08:03
So there sort of was the plan
with game number two
00:08:07
was like, OK, the lead
is just going to
00:08:09
be, like, a badass dude,
like many, many other
00:08:13
video games.
00:08:13
JEN: Red was actually
the deceased
00:08:15
girlfriend of the
protagonist.
00:08:19
And she was a singer
and a star
00:08:21
and it was kind of
like this more
00:08:23
noir-ish feeling
storyline, I think.
00:08:27
You know, we spent kind of
months, I think,
00:08:31
shilly shallying through
those ideas.
00:08:35
And I must have
drawn 30 or 40
00:08:39
iterations of the
character until
00:08:44
finally Greg was like,
you know,
00:08:46
do you want to
try something else?
00:08:49
- We realized that
we weren't really
00:08:51
into this kind of
story that
00:08:53
we were telling,
this character that
00:08:55
we were developing.
And so we went back
00:08:59
to an idea that
actually predates
00:09:03
even the release of
Bastion. It was
00:09:05
from an idea
that Jen Z,
00:09:07
our art director, and
I talked about
00:09:09
on the drive
back from E3.
00:09:12
It was going to be
a fantasy game.
00:09:14
There's a woman who's
just kind of like a
00:09:17
unassuming woman kind of working
at, like, a fantasy tavern.
00:09:21
And one day she
falls in love with
00:09:25
a traveling wizard, but
one day after that,
00:09:31
some people come for this
wizard and kill him
00:09:37
with a powerful kind of
demonic blade.
00:09:40
But in the struggle
the blade is lost.
00:09:42
And she picks up this blade
and miraculously hears
00:09:49
the voice of this guy
that she fell in love with
00:09:53
speaking to her from
it, and proceeds
00:09:55
to have her revenge.
00:09:58
That was an idea
that Jen and I were
00:10:00
excited about but was not
a game that we ended up
00:10:03
making, obviously. So it's
kind of like, well,
00:10:05
that was cool, but
we're just shooting,
00:10:10
shooting the breeze
driving home from E3.
00:10:13
So the surprise was
that that idea actually
00:10:16
stuck, and we came back, when we
were trying to problem solve
00:10:20
what to do with the story
of Transistor, it's like,
00:10:22
god damn it, why
aren't we doing that?
00:10:25
That was the story
that we wanted to make.
00:10:27
But to me, I was
like, Jen, like,
00:10:30
that only works because
it's fantasy.
00:10:34
Because you can't
have, like, a--
00:10:36
You can't have,
like, a demonic
00:10:39
rune sword in a science
fiction setting, right?
00:10:41
Jen is like, hold
my beer.
00:10:44
- I was like, OK,
I love drawing girls.
00:10:46
[LAUGHS]
I got this.
00:10:49
And within, like,
an hour,
00:10:51
I had reduced a
couple drawings, I think,
00:10:53
a couple concepts,
like very rough.
00:10:55
And immediately I think
both Greg and I
00:10:58
just felt like it was
so much stronger
00:11:01
and so much
more exciting.
00:11:03
- And she comes back
with the first
00:11:05
illustration of Red
and the transistor,
00:11:07
which is very, very
close to her
00:11:10
final design. She got
it basically
00:11:13
95% of the way there
on her first shot.
00:11:16
And it was one of those
things. We, like,
00:11:18
went and showed this
to the team.
00:11:20
Because everyone on the
team had their different
00:11:22
feelings about where
the game should be.
00:11:24
And we were looking for that
visceral reaction of, like,
00:11:27
whoa, like, yes.
Say no more.
00:11:30
And that's what happened.
00:11:32
- It was, like, such a
eureka moment
00:11:34
when I first
saw Jen's
00:11:36
concept art for Red
with the transistor,
00:11:40
now just wielding it.
It just made so
00:11:43
much more sense,
and just clicked immediately.
00:11:46
GREG: Even though
we made a really
00:11:48
dramatic change to
what the story of
00:11:50
Transistor was going
to be, it was still
00:11:52
working with a lot
of what we had
00:11:54
developed to that point.
'Cause we were
00:11:56
still working on a story
about, that always
00:11:59
was going to involve
a singer who,
00:12:03
whose voice was taken
from her, except
00:12:05
she was actually going
to be essentially
00:12:07
dead, and you played
as this other
00:12:09
guy who loved her,
who was in this
00:12:12
relationship with her, who was
committed to trying
00:12:15
to bring her back.
We essentially
00:12:17
role reserved that story,
where it was now
00:12:19
going to be about Red,
and this other guy was
00:12:21
the one who was dead,
and her quest
00:12:25
to bring this guy back.
So when you
00:12:27
kind of go back through
some of our earlier
00:12:29
concepts, it's for sure
we evolved the
00:12:32
characters and other aspects
of the story a great deal
00:12:34
but we didn't completely
start over from that
00:12:38
perspective. So that
gave us a lot of
00:12:41
our momentum back.
We're like, OK,
00:12:42
This is Red's story.
Got it.
00:12:45
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:12:53
- We took a lot of
iterations actually to
00:12:55
get to the point where
we kind of cracked
00:12:58
what we wanted out of
the game, which was
00:13:01
you know, Red could
stop time at any moment,
00:13:03
plan the actions. But
the actions you took
00:13:05
are the same ones you
can take in real time.
00:13:07
They're not special or
distinct in that way.
00:13:10
They take up a certain amount
of your focus bar.
00:13:12
And once you-- or that was the
development name for it,
00:13:16
the turn bar.
[LAUGHING]
00:13:18
And once you're--
Once you have
00:13:20
everything planned, you
can hit a button.
00:13:22
You watch her execute
all the moves in
00:13:24
real time, but then there's
a recovery period
00:13:26
where only, you know,
one defensive
00:13:30
power is able to be used.
And that recovery
00:13:32
period ended up being
the enemy phase.
00:13:34
It suddenly unlocked a bunch
of stuff. It meant
00:13:36
that we could actually
have hyper-aggressive
00:13:38
enemies, and it felt
thematically relevant
00:13:41
to that game, where Red
is being hunted down by
00:13:43
the Process. They could
have the kind of
00:13:45
oppressive capabilities
that even the enemies
00:13:47
in Bastion couldn't
really have, because you
00:13:49
always had in your back
pocket the ability to
00:13:51
stop the game, plan
out your actions.
00:13:53
- You know, when we're
making the AI for
00:13:55
a game, if you
focus usually
00:13:59
is not on just how
to make it really
00:14:01
good. You know, you can
make an enemy that just
00:14:03
perfectly dodges out of
the way of the player
00:14:06
at the very last second
every single time.
00:14:08
That's not going to be
a good experience.
00:14:10
So the goal is usually
to make something,
00:14:13
you know, that feels more
natural and is just
00:14:15
kind of, like, fun for the
player to fight against,
00:14:17
that kind of give natural
openings for the player
00:14:20
to attack, and, you know,
doesn't let the player
00:14:22
fall into the same pattern
over and over again,
00:14:24
but without doing things
that are unfair.
00:14:26
If you take a, you know,
shooter, for example,
00:14:29
an easier example, like
the easiest possible
00:14:31
thing is just to have,
tell the AI always
00:14:34
aim directly at the center
of the opponent's head.
00:14:37
That's really easy.
Coming up with, like,
00:14:39
what the, you know,
system or algorithm
00:14:43
or heuristic is to make
them kind of like
00:14:45
you know, miss in
a natural way,
00:14:47
that's actually a much
more difficult problem.
00:14:49
JEN: We had
talked about them
00:14:51
as being products of
what we were
00:14:53
internally calling the virus.
In speaking of it
00:14:57
as a virus, and especially
in a world where
00:15:00
we were kind of following
this more art nouveau
00:15:02
and softer look, it
just kind of felt
00:15:06
appropriate to make these feel
a little, like, fleshier.
00:15:11
And then the other side
of it is that I--
00:15:13
As mentioned, I think
a lot of the enemy
00:15:17
design in Bastion was
far too intricate.
00:15:21
And in Transistor,
I swore to myself
00:15:24
that I would simplify, so the
enemy designs are
00:15:29
far simpler in Transistor, and I
think that's for the better.
00:15:36
[WHOOSH]
00:15:40
The function system in
Transistor was like a joy
00:15:43
to make because it led to
a lot of discovery on team,
00:15:45
like you would put two
combinations together.
00:15:47
And the discovery on team is
usually like, this doesn't do anything.
00:15:50
So we have to make
it do something
00:15:53
and work, so a
lot of it was
00:15:57
trial and error, putting
stuff together,
00:15:59
figuring stuff out. And
we had a lot of people
00:16:02
on the team helping us
figure those things out.
00:16:04
- The, I mean, the whole,
you know, code
00:16:06
theme of that game
was, of course,
00:16:10
very intentional
on Greg's part.
00:16:12
Definitely throughout that project,
he would, like, ask me
00:16:15
just little things, like
the formatting of, like,
00:16:17
there was, like,
comments on some of
00:16:20
the, you know, character
inspect screens there
00:16:23
that are, you know,
look like what
00:16:25
the actual comments
in code look like,
00:16:27
and the name of
various functions.
00:16:30
Or I think there's
like a NaN,
00:16:32
a NaN in the game,
which stands for
00:16:35
not a number, which is
like a programming
00:16:37
term or math term
for when you
00:16:39
divide by zero.
So we talked about
00:16:41
that stuff, and those were
a lot of fun.
00:16:43
Fun little details to
add to the game.
00:16:46
- There was so many disastrous
versions of this
00:16:48
system that finally
culminated in
00:16:50
an idea that I believe
Gavin had about
00:16:54
consolidating our powers
and upgrades into a
00:16:56
single thing. And, you know,
Greg brought the
00:16:58
function metaphor and helped us
make sense of all of this.
00:17:01
So you would just
take a power,
00:17:03
you'd put it in
the slot,
00:17:04
you could put a power
on top of it,
00:17:05
which would change it.
And you could put a
00:17:07
power in a passive slot,
which would change it.
00:17:09
And there would only be
16 things now
00:17:11
instead of like
116 things.
00:17:12
- You know, we ended
up with, I believe,
00:17:14
the 16 functions that
could, you know,
00:17:16
interact with each other in
pretty much every different
00:17:19
combination, and just
coming up with
00:17:22
you know, what happens when
you put this function on this
00:17:26
function, or, you know,
vice versa, or put this
00:17:28
one in a passive slot.
We love when players
00:17:31
kind of have an idea
of like, oh,
00:17:33
when I see these two,
maybe if I combine
00:17:35
these in this way and
use them against,
00:17:37
you know, this monster,
then it might--
00:17:39
It might be a really
cool outcome.
00:17:42
And then having them,
you know, collect those
00:17:44
things, and put them together,
and seeing that happen.
00:17:46
- That simplification and
streamlining took a long
00:17:48
time to get to, and, you know,
when you have
00:17:52
broad, ambitious, at least
for our scale,
00:17:58
kinds of ideas, stuff
takes longer to make.
00:18:01
It takes longer to figure
out, and that was
00:18:04
just the process on Transistor.
Everything was slow.
00:18:07
- Even though this
idea of, like,
00:18:09
her and her sort of,
like, talking sword
00:18:12
seemed very clear,
at least to,
00:18:14
at least to someone like me,
it turned out to be
00:18:17
a big challenge to
convey that
00:18:19
in a video game, and
we started testing it
00:18:22
on people, and they
were like, oh,
00:18:24
you guys are doing the
narration thing again.
00:18:26
And I'm like, oh
my god.
00:18:27
They didn't know where the
voice was coming from.
00:18:30
It was a mess.
So the way we
00:18:32
where's the voice coming
from is through
00:18:34
through, like, we--
An engineer, Chris Jurney,
00:18:37
who was working with us
at the time, he
00:18:39
was able to get the
thing going,
00:18:42
I think with help from the rest
of our engineering team,
00:18:45
so that the sword would
flash in sync with
00:18:47
the speech. And like,
that, it actually
00:18:50
took quite a bit, but thankfully,
as soon as we got
00:18:52
the sword flashing in sync with
the speech, people were like,
00:18:55
oh yeah, it's the
sword talking. Duh.
00:18:57
You know, and we're like,
oh, thank god.
00:18:59
- I was excited
about the concept.
00:19:01
But I also was like
incredibly intimidated,
00:19:03
because when you
think about sci-fi,
00:19:07
like I just think
sci-fi worlds are
00:19:09
harder to execute
because they
00:19:11
require you to
kind of creatively
00:19:16
ideate around things
that are more
00:19:19
modern and therefore
things that people
00:19:22
have more expectations
around.
00:19:24
I also hate drawing
buildings.
00:19:26
But I told the guys,
you know, in isometric,
00:19:30
you know, a building in the foreground
is just going to obscure
00:19:32
100% of gameplay.
So we need to have
00:19:36
shorter buildings. We
can maybe have
00:19:38
taller buildings in
the background.
00:19:39
Well, we can sell the
idea of going
00:19:42
amongst really tall
skyscrapers,
00:19:44
but we can't
actually show it.
00:19:46
- When it comes to, like
the idea of a sci-fi
00:19:49
love story, we kind of
had to drill down
00:19:52
into what that meant.
We realized quickly
00:19:54
that we weren't interested
in the kind of
00:19:56
sci-fi that was kind of
very far-flung.
00:20:00
It wasn't going to be,
like, laser guns and
00:20:02
spaceships and
stuff like that.
00:20:03
We were much more interested
in like, kind of the
00:20:05
cyberpunk genre, something
that felt very
00:20:07
grounded, and actually
kind of modern.
00:20:10
In that respect, it would
take on some of the
00:20:12
like, anachronistic
elements of Bastion.
00:20:15
But whereas Bastion
has this, like,
00:20:17
frontiersy feel to it,
this would have like a
00:20:20
modern, almost like a
roaring twenties,
00:20:24
20th century
kind of feel,
00:20:26
but still have, like,
a high-tech
00:20:28
component running
through it.
00:20:30
Though, looking at
cyberpunk in particular
00:20:32
we realized the aspects
of it that we were
00:20:36
really interested in is
like that kind of,
00:20:38
the neon lit aesthetic
the kind of--
00:20:41
The beauty of it,
the high society
00:20:43
kind of class of it,
but less the parts
00:20:46
that are, like, really
seedy and really
00:20:49
could be really gory.
00:20:50
- It was incredible
that they were,
00:20:53
they were on board with this,
because I think
00:20:55
it's unusual to think
about cyberpunk without
00:20:59
invoking something
like Bladerunner.
00:21:01
Camilo, our 3D artist,
he came on a couple
00:21:05
months in. And then
I think like two or three
00:21:08
months laters Josh showed
up on the scene
00:21:11
and added incredible
particle effects,
00:21:15
and beautiful UI
and UI transitions,
00:21:20
and screen transitions
to everything.
00:21:22
And I was like,
oh my god.
00:21:24
This is amazing.
00:21:31
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:21:34
TRANSISTOR (VOICEOVER): Hey.
I have a favor to ask.
00:21:41
Let me go.
00:21:45
DARREN KORB: At the beginning
of transistor, I would say
00:21:47
I spent, like six months
prototyping the music.
00:21:49
I think for me, the
tone of that game
00:21:54
and the world really
crystallized when we
00:21:56
made this tone video
where we had some voiceover
00:22:00
from Logan, some incredible
concept art from Jen,
00:22:02
writing from Greg, and
this piece of music.
00:22:04
And we put it all together
in a little video.
00:22:08
And once that all came
together, that was the time
00:22:11
when I was like,
yeah, oh, this.
00:22:13
This is where we're going.
Let's go there, and
00:22:15
go there as fast
as we can.
00:22:17
TRANSISTOR (VOICEOVER): I'm
going to ask them why.
00:22:21
Why you? Why
the white walls?
00:22:27
Why end like this?
00:22:34
DARREN: Once it became
Red, I knew the music
00:22:37
had to be her music.
Red being a singer
00:22:41
and being silent, and
Red's role in
00:22:45
the world of Transistor
and Cloudbank
00:22:47
was a really important
part of my process,
00:22:50
considering that, considering--
Figuring out what kind of
00:22:54
character Red was, what kind
of music she'd make
00:22:56
what kind of lyrics she'd
write, 'cause I had
00:22:58
to try and embody
this character
00:22:59
while writing the lyrics,
and I want to make the
00:23:02
songs sort of, in a way
applicable to what's
00:23:06
happening in the story,
but I wanted Red to have
00:23:08
already written these songs
in advance of the
00:23:10
of the game.
So it was a
00:23:12
real tightrope walk.
00:23:15
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:23:19
- I moved to New York
in 2007.
00:23:22
I had a lot of friends
there who were in the
00:23:24
theater, kind of singing arena,
and they introduced me
00:23:28
to Darren. I think it was
his brother Dan
00:23:30
introduced us 'cause
I was doing some
00:23:32
singing stuff, trying to
make it in New York.
00:23:35
And he gave me a
couple fun things to
00:23:38
do outside of video
game stuff. And then
00:23:40
I remember when he started
doing Supergiant Games,
00:23:43
he came to me, and he said,
do you want to sing on a
00:23:45
video game? And I
was like, sure.
00:23:48
[HUMMING]
00:23:54
We got the VGA
nomination for
00:23:57
"Build That Wall," so there
was a lot of, like,
00:23:59
excitement around that
song in particular
00:24:02
for Bastion. So I knew
that it was, like, going
00:24:05
well, but, you know, when
they asked me to come back
00:24:08
and do some more stuff
for Transistor,
00:24:10
I was over the moon, and
so yeah. I had
00:24:13
no idea what that was
going to turn into.
00:24:15
I thought it was going to
be like another kind of
00:24:17
like one and done song, but
it felt like they kept
00:24:21
coming, like, you know, like,
we have another one.
00:24:23
We have another one, like this
is where the story's going.
00:24:26
I think we did everything
from Darren's apartment
00:24:29
in Brooklyn. He had
like a closet.
00:24:32
It wasn't even a walk-in closet.
It was just like a
00:24:34
built in closet, and
he would like
00:24:36
cover it with these
soundproof blanket things.
00:24:41
And then I would, like,
face into all of the clothes.
00:24:45
And he would have
the mic cord like
00:24:48
snaking through the other
room to his living room.
00:24:51
And then he would be
on the other side.
00:24:54
So we would have to,
like, kick Michelle
00:24:56
and Milo, his wife and
son, we'd have to
00:24:58
kick them out while
we did our recording.
00:25:00
And he would just feedback
to me, like, let's
00:25:03
do it again, but a little
differently, you know,
00:25:05
we could see each other.
It was like a very
00:25:07
hilarious setup.
00:25:08
[DANNY LAUGHS]
00:25:09
And I stared at, like,
all of his graphic tees
00:25:11
and Converse. I can
like, memorize
00:25:13
on the shelf. It
was very funny.
00:25:17
[CRASH]
00:25:20
[HUMMING]
00:25:23
- The idea to have Red
humming, for example,
00:25:28
that you could only hear when
you enter turn mode,
00:25:30
was something that I
knew I wanted to do
00:25:32
once we'd figure out
what her deal was,
00:25:35
that she was the protagonist,
that she was a singer,
00:25:38
who couldn't speak,
who'd lost her voice.
00:25:40
I knew that if we're
going to put you inside
00:25:42
as you're sort of planning out
what you're going to do,
00:25:45
there has to be some sort
of vocalization in there.
00:25:48
- Some of them are really,
like, intricately weird.
00:25:52
Like it took me a long time
to get the first take.
00:25:54
So I was like having
to hum that was
00:25:56
definitely like a project,
but I've actually heard
00:26:00
a lot of people think that,
or say that
00:26:02
they want, like, the
soundtrack of just
00:26:05
the humming, which
is really funny.
00:26:07
But I think
that that's
00:26:09
genius, like whenever I try
to tell non video game
00:26:12
people like how the
songs that I work on are
00:26:15
incorporated into the game,
that's like, always my
00:26:17
go-to.
00:26:20
[WHOOSH]
00:26:21
- For Transistor, I think
we saw that a lot of
00:26:24
people, you know, it had
this broad experimental system.
00:26:29
But I would be surprised if
the way a lot of people
00:26:31
play it is they find something
they're comfortable with
00:26:33
and they just kind of
roll with it for a long time.
00:26:36
I think that's like, pretty
common kind of action RPG
00:26:40
behavior. I think that's
like a standard
00:26:42
way for players
to play.
00:26:44
We try to do some stuff in
Transistor to push
00:26:46
their comfort zone,
so like when you
00:26:48
get defeated, instead of
just losing and
00:26:50
re-checkpointing, you lose
your highest value,
00:26:52
highest memory value
function gets
00:26:54
popped out, and you have to
finish the fight with the other three,
00:26:56
then the other two,
then the other one,
00:26:58
and then you have to
start over.
00:26:59
so we were trying to
do stuff to move people
00:27:01
off their comfort zone, and that
was part of the CCG model too.
00:27:04
But honestly, a lot of that
stuff comes from a point of view,
00:27:08
a very designery point of view,
which is like, kind of like,
00:27:11
eat your vegetables game design.
You know, it's like
00:27:14
hey, player. You always do this
fun thing you like doing.
00:27:18
But there is this interesting thing
you could be doing.
00:27:22
And let's get you
to do that
00:27:24
interesting thing. And
I think Transistor
00:27:26
struck a pretty good balance of it,
but that also means
00:27:28
a lot of players found a couple
combinations that really worked for them,
00:27:31
and they probably used
a lot of them through the game
00:27:34
even though there are
3000 combinations
00:27:36
they could be using, you know,
they were using 12.
00:27:39
But that's OK, because
we didn't, we didn't
00:27:43
make a game to just feel good
about the number of
00:27:46
function combinations in the game.
We made a game to be a
00:27:50
full experience. And if
part of their experience was
00:27:52
I'm in danger. I'm unsafe.
I want to use stuff that works
00:27:56
so that Red, like, achieves her goal,
that's totally OK.
00:28:00
There are enemies in the
later game that basically add
00:28:02
considerations to
the combat, like
00:28:04
now you need something
that can burst down
00:28:09
multiple enemies, or you could
turn on limiters that now add
00:28:12
a shield to all the cells
that you have to pick up.
00:28:15
So you need to find a way to
pop shields very easily,
00:28:19
and you can't just make
a very high damage burst build.
00:28:21
So there are things that the
game tries to do to put
00:28:23
you into different builds,
into different setups.
00:28:26
And the limiter system
in that game, which
00:28:28
like, you know, creates
these multiplicative
00:28:31
sometimes strategic and
sometimes just like
00:28:33
challenging considerations
in the fights
00:28:36
with something, well, it's
always sort of been--
00:28:39
It's been, like,
our staple to have
00:28:41
these elective difficulty
systems that you can layer
00:28:44
on into the game
so that you can
00:28:47
tailor the way in
which you want to
00:28:49
make it hard. We've
always shied away
00:28:53
from sort of
the traditional.
00:28:55
easy, medium, hard
type stuff.
00:28:58
Especially at the beginning.
If we don't think
00:29:01
the game needs it, we would
prefer to kind of
00:29:03
focus on a single
experience that you can
00:29:05
tailor as you go. And, you know,
Bastion ended up
00:29:08
having a no sweat mode where
you did have unlimited lives
00:29:10
and this type
of thing, but
00:29:14
those are, those are
sort of not our kind of
00:29:18
starting points for
a lot of this stuff.
00:29:20
Like, if you're going to
find a design
00:29:22
theme in all of our games,
it's 100%, it's player failure.
00:29:27
We're thinking about player
failure all the time.
00:29:29
We're thinking about
ways to make the
00:29:33
failure experience interesting,
or support it narratively,
00:29:39
or justify it in
the game world,
00:29:41
or make it interesting to
have a setback.
00:29:44
And all four of our games
have something like this,
00:29:47
which is a result of
dozens of hours of
00:29:50
conversation and things
we've tried that end up
00:29:52
not working.
00:29:53
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:29:58
- Before we announced that game,
we collectively as a team
00:30:02
were terrified that
we were going to
00:30:04
fall on the wrong side of,
like, similar to Bastion.
00:30:08
There's the similar to
Bastion that's like,
00:30:11
oh, awesome, it's a whole
exciting new game
00:30:14
from the creators of Bastion.
And there's a similar
00:30:16
to Bastion of, oh,
dude, they just
00:30:18
you know, swapped the kid
with a girl and kind of like
00:30:22
palette swapped all the art
and called it a day.
00:30:24
We were really afraid of that
assessment and of
00:30:27
people being really
angry that we didn't
00:30:29
just go on to make
a Bastion 2, because
00:30:31
a ton of the feedback we were
getting on Bastion was
00:30:33
oh, dude, that game was so cool.
When's the sequel?
00:30:35
And we're like, heh,
heh, heh, yeah.
00:30:37
Even for those of us
who were more
00:30:39
optimistic about how
that was going to go,
00:30:41
it wildly exceeded
our expectations
00:30:46
as far as the like, excitement,
the raw excitement over
00:30:51
the announcement. We were,
we were shocked.
00:30:54
Because just days before,
we were so concerned
00:30:58
about how the announcement
was going to go, that we were, like,
00:31:01
very close to just
pulling the plug on it.
00:31:05
Like, we should wait.
We're not done.
00:31:07
We're not ready. We need
to, we need more time.
00:31:09
So Transistor came out,
and unlike Bastion,
00:31:12
within a month, we knew it was
going to enable us
00:31:15
to make another game.
In Transistor's case,
00:31:17
you know, we self
published it, so
00:31:19
you know, we know, we had to
do all the little bits and pieces
00:31:22
to get it on the PS4
and get it up on Steam,
00:31:25
were the first two places
that it appeared.
00:31:27
It was really incredibly good
to have made a game
00:31:33
that did not
necessarily
00:31:37
make everyone hate us.
[LAUGHING]
00:31:41
So that is such a lukewarm
way to talk about
00:31:45
Transistor's accep--
So, the reason I
00:31:48
sound like this when I talk
about Transistor is 'cause
00:31:50
of how scared we were.
Like we were just terrified.
00:31:53
And so everything
I say about
00:31:55
Transistor, when I
transport myself
00:31:57
back there, is from a
completely fear-based
00:32:00
point of view, of like,
oh my god, this is
00:32:02
the game that kills the company.
And this is the game that
00:32:05
undoes the legacy of Bastion.
And this is the game
00:32:08
that you know, all these
little decisions we made,
00:32:12
maybe we made too
many ones that are
00:32:14
too esoteric, and aren't
for certain players, and
00:32:17
people were really
kind to that game.
00:32:20
And they were even more kind
to it like a year or two
00:32:24
or three years later. It's
the kind of game where
00:32:26
I feel like the reception
just got better
00:32:28
and better, and better,
and better.
00:32:29
- Five plus years after the
fact, it's actually
00:32:33
bizarre to me
that I see more--
00:32:35
I see much more love
for Transistor now,
00:32:37
even than Bastion.
I think part of it
00:32:39
is because Bastion is
just kind of old.
00:32:41
And Transistor maybe
just kind of
00:32:45
reached peak nostalgia
for people, so
00:32:47
people who are like, you know,
maybe played it at 13, they're like
00:32:51
18, 19 now. And they're
like, oh, you know.
00:32:53
So we hear from these people
for whom Transistor
00:32:56
hit them at the right place
at the right time.
00:32:58
- Like it turns out, what I
ended up really hoping for
00:33:03
from Transistor is that
it was some people's
00:33:06
favorite game of ours,
and it was. And then
00:33:10
it turned out it was many
people's favorite game.
00:33:12
And I'm not saying, oh,
we should have been fearless.
00:33:14
It's just, you know, the
best thing about Transistor
00:33:17
no matter how it would have
ended up doing, is that it
00:33:20
came out, and we were
done with it.
00:33:22
Because we needed to
do that. We needed to
00:33:25
go through whatever
that was. We needed to
00:33:28
figure out how to work together,
how to start a game
00:33:30
together, how to finish
another game together,
00:33:32
how to work in an
office together,
00:33:34
how to make big decisions
as our own publisher.
00:33:37
We needed to go through
all of that in order to
00:33:39
make the next set of decisions that we
were going to have to make.
00:33:44
[MUSIC PLAYING]
00:33:55
- I think "Paper Boats"
actually is the
00:33:58
one that I get the
most comments on.
00:34:00
Someone at a recent show who
told me that it was their
00:34:03
song for their wedding,
like during their first dance
00:34:07
or, oh, it's my lullaby,
00:34:09
for my baby to go to
sleep, or it's my
00:34:11
alarm when I wake up.
You know, it's
00:34:13
just really fun
to see how it's
00:34:15
kind of gone out
into the world.
00:34:17
I had just met my
now-husband, so I
00:34:19
remember thinking
about it as like a
00:34:21
cool song about, you know,
love, partnership.
00:34:25
Two-- in my feeling,
it has like two very
00:34:27
distinct parts, so
it's like I liked
00:34:30
kind of going from
one to the other.
00:34:32
And doing that vocally
was fun.
00:34:35
SINGING: I will always find you
like it's written in the stars.
00:34:45
You can run, but
you can't hide.
00:34:55
Try. I will always,
always find you.
00:35:05
I will always,
I will always,
00:35:15
always find you,
I will always.
00:35:24
I will always find you
like it's written in the stars.
00:35:36
We can run, but
we can't hide. Try.
00:35:48
I will always find you
like it's written in the stars.
00:36:01
We can run, but
we can't hide. Try.
00:36:12
I will always, always find you.
I will always.
