How can schools make grading more equitable and effective? With Joe Feldman
概要
TLDRIn this podcast episode, Joe Feldman discusses the history and needed evolution of grading systems in schools, focusing on the shortcomings of traditional methods that have remained unchanged for over 100 years. Grading, often perceived as stressful and inequitable, is examined through Feldman's lens, advocating for ethical, just, and motivational practices. Feldman highlights the importance of accuracy, bias resistance, and intrinsic student motivation in grading. Historical insights reveal that many past grading practices were to sort students during the industrial revolution. Traditional scales like 0-100 are criticized for mathematical unsoundness and fostering stress without accurately depicting student learning. Feldman stresses the necessity for schools to shift toward more reflective and equitable systems, suggesting smaller grading scales (like 0-4) and discussing the potential role of AI in refining education. Educational leaders are encouraged to foundationally change grading practices through discussions, starting with understanding and consensus among teachers and administration.
収穫
- 📚 Current grading practices are outdated and based on industrial-era needs.
- 🔍 Equitable grading focuses on accuracy, bias resistance, and intrinsic motivation.
- ⚖️ Traditional grading methods often include biases, impacting student fairness.
- 🎯 Using a 0-4 scale may provide a clearer assessment of student understanding.
- 🚫 Homework and extrinsic incentives should not dominate grading standards.
- 🗣️ Conversations and consensus are essential for implementing grading reforms.
- 📈 AI can assist in creating more transparent and equitable grading systems.
- 🔄 Moving away from legacy systems requires patience, education, and agreement.
- 💡 Intrinsic motivation is a better driver of student success than points.
- 🕵️♂️ Teachers can start by aligning on why grading reform matters for progression.
タイムライン
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
In the podcast, Joe Feldman discusses the effects of including everything in student grades, which enhances stress and creates environments where students can't relax. He highlights the history of grading, explaining that much of the current practices have not evolved in the past century. Feldman emphasizes the need to rethink grading systems to better suit today's educational goals.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Joe Feldman outlines his background as a former teacher and administrator and how his experiences led him to research grading practices. Noticing inconsistencies and a lack of understanding among educators about grading, he embarked on studying it extensively, culminating in his book "Grading for Equity."
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Feldman describes grading as a deeply personal and controversial subject for teachers, acting as one of the last bastions of autonomy and professional judgment in their roles. This leads to a reluctance to discuss or change grading practices, which are often not addressed in teacher training, leaving teachers without a common language or support system to engage in these conversations.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Feldman explains the difference between grading and assessing, stating that grading is the formal reporting of student progress towards learning goals, while assessing is a method to determine where students are in their learning journey. He advocates for transparency and consistency and how tools like Todle are aiding in more equitable grading systems.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Feldman connects historical grading systems to the present by revealing their origins during the Industrial Revolution, showing that the purpose was to efficiently sort students into tracks using a grading system. The practices were deterministic and lacked contemporary beliefs in individual potential and the importance of intrinsic motivation, leading to outdated practices in the current educational system.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
The conversation delves into traditional grading's effects, showcasing a dichotomy where students obsess over grades or disengage entirely due to demoralization. Feldman underscores that when everything counts towards a grade, it creates unnecessary stress and discourages students from taking risks or relaxing, thus stifling genuine learning and exploration.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
Feldman introduces "Equitable Grading," focusing on three pillars: accuracy, bias resistance, and motivation. He suggests moving away from a 0-100 scale to a simpler 0-4 scale for better accuracy and reliability. This shift intends to create grading systems that resist biases and enhance student intrinsic motivation and self-regulation.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
When discussing how to implement changes, Feldman warns against quick policy changes and stresses the importance of building teacher capacity and understanding. He advocates for creating a culture of dialogue and education among educators, starting with leaders and gradually involving willing teachers through ongoing discussions and trials.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:10
Finally, Feldman envisions the future of grading systems where transparency replaces bias, and artificial intelligence could play a role in feedback and standardization. He emphasizes that grades should be trustworthy measures of student learning, advocating for more meaningful assessments that accurately reflect a student's readiness and capabilities.
マインドマップ
ビデオQ&A
Who is Joe Feldman?
Joe Feldman is a former high school English and American history teacher, department chair, assistant principal, principal, and district administrator. He has researched grading and authored a book on equitable grading practices.
What are the three pillars of equitable grading according to Joe Feldman?
The three pillars are: grades should accurately describe student learning, grading should be bias-resistant, and it should motivate students intrinsically.
Why is traditional grading considered problematic?
Traditional grading methods, like the 0-100 scale, can be mathematically unsound, induce unnecessary stress, and fail to provide an accurate representation of a student's learning and abilities.
What historical reasons have contributed to current grading practices?
Grading practices were influenced by industrial revolution needs, aiming to efficiently sort students for workforce roles using ABCDF scales and introducing behaviorism into education systems.
Why is it difficult for teachers to change traditional grading methods?
Grading is often one of the few areas where teachers feel they have autonomy. Many have not received formal training in grading, making them hesitant to adjust practices that are deeply rooted in history.
How can grading practices demotivate students?
Incorporating all mistakes in final grades or relying on points can demotivate students by not reflecting their true learning journey, focusing on points rather than understanding.
What role does AI play in future grading practices?
AI can help create transparent grading systems by generating proficiency scales and providing quick feedback to students, potentially reducing biases and enhancing learning assessment.
What changes does Feldman suggest for grading scales?
He suggests shifting away from the 0-100 scale to a simpler scale like 0-4, which increases interrater reliability and better reflects student understanding.
How do inequitable grading practices impact historically underserved students?
Inequitable practices can disproportionately punish students of color and lower-income backgrounds by imposing behaviors and requirements that do not accommodate diverse learning styles or external circumstances.
What should school leaders focus on when initiating grading reforms?
School leaders should prioritize education and dialogue with all stakeholders, creating a shared understanding of the need for reform and building consensus on new grading practices.
ビデオをもっと見る
CodeLLM: NEW AI Editor - Cursor + Windsurf Alternative! (Route Any LLM With NO LIMIT!)
The REAL Reason NATO Expanded Towards Russia’s Borders
Hell's System NEEDS to be Fixed - Helluva Boss Mastermind
Gossip Girl 2021: What The Hell Happened?
the secret life is the worst teen drama of all time
Zone 2 Training: Dose, Frequency, and Duration | Iñigo San-Millán, Ph.D. & Peter Attia, M.D.
- 00:00:00when everything's included in the grade
- 00:00:01it adds to stress and it creates places
- 00:00:03where students can't relax this
- 00:00:06conversation is so interesting because
- 00:00:07we talk about the history of grading and
- 00:00:10how a lot of the practices that are
- 00:00:11happening in our schools haven't really
- 00:00:13changed in the last 100 years welcome to
- 00:00:15toddle School leaders project on today's
- 00:00:17episode of the podcast I welcome Joe
- 00:00:19Feldman who literally wrote the book
- 00:00:21unequitable grading Joe talks about the
- 00:00:23three pillars of Equitable grading and
- 00:00:25we dig into what the idea of the future
- 00:00:27of grading and assessment might look
- 00:00:29like in schools you're not going to want
- 00:00:31to miss a single second so let's jump
- 00:00:33right into this conversation Joe felin
- 00:00:35I'm so excited to have you here on the
- 00:00:36school leaders project thanks so much
- 00:00:38for joining us oh thanks for the
- 00:00:39invitation so I'd love for you to set
- 00:00:41the stage a little bit for our audience
- 00:00:43who are you tell us about your book tell
- 00:00:45us about the work that you're most
- 00:00:46passionate about yeah so um I'm Joe I'm
- 00:00:49a former high school English and
- 00:00:50American history teacher uh I was a
- 00:00:52English department chair assistant
- 00:00:54principal principal of a couple
- 00:00:55different high schools um I worked in
- 00:00:57the central office in uh Northern
- 00:01:00California school district as well as in
- 00:01:01New York City and after I finished those
- 00:01:05jobs I wanted to try something different
- 00:01:07so I started researching an aspect of my
- 00:01:10work that had just nagged at me uh which
- 00:01:12was grading I didn't feel like I really
- 00:01:15understood it as a teacher um as an
- 00:01:18administrator at the site level I saw
- 00:01:21teachers doing lots of different things
- 00:01:23um and just couldn't really figure out
- 00:01:25why they were doing different things and
- 00:01:27how to help them uh as a district
- 00:01:29administ administrator I saw it even on
- 00:01:31a more widespread basis and and the more
- 00:01:33people I spoke with the more people told
- 00:01:35me that I wasn't crazy that this is that
- 00:01:37grading was a really um kind of Tangled
- 00:01:41knot kind of a subject uh and so I
- 00:01:44started researching grading and its
- 00:01:46history in this country and found that
- 00:01:48it's really just a fascinating history
- 00:01:50and in many ways we're continuing to use
- 00:01:52the same grading practices as a hundred
- 00:01:54years ago and so I looked at what is the
- 00:01:57current understanding of grading and Rel
- 00:02:00fields of um adolescent development and
- 00:02:03motivation Theory and culturally
- 00:02:06sustaining pedagogy and tried to um look
- 00:02:09at what would be ways to improve the
- 00:02:12ways that we grade uh and started
- 00:02:14partnering with a couple schools and
- 00:02:16districts um and did that for about four
- 00:02:20years and then wrote the book um grading
- 00:02:23for Equity based on what I had learned
- 00:02:26from that work in schools and districts
- 00:02:28and in classrooms love that I think you
- 00:02:30hit the nail on the head that it's
- 00:02:32something we all clearly do in schools
- 00:02:34but it feels almost taboo or it feels so
- 00:02:36valuated or uncomfortable sometimes to
- 00:02:38talk about why do you think that is like
- 00:02:40why is it so hard to talk about grading
- 00:02:43well I think that um there's this weird
- 00:02:46uh irony that's going on where um
- 00:02:50teachers feel like with with all the
- 00:02:52mandates placed on them and all the
- 00:02:53expectations and roles they have to play
- 00:02:56um that grading is one of their last
- 00:02:59Island of autonomy it's where they can
- 00:03:01bring their full professional judgment
- 00:03:03and identity to this aspect of their
- 00:03:05practice and they are in the best
- 00:03:07position to decide where H how to report
- 00:03:10what students know and can do um and so
- 00:03:13I think that's a very protected area and
- 00:03:16to start opening up that conversation oh
- 00:03:19and it's very private you know I think
- 00:03:21every teacher feels like it's Unique to
- 00:03:23them and they've spent the work to do it
- 00:03:26and you know one of the ironies is that
- 00:03:28they've had no training in how to do
- 00:03:30this this really important part of their
- 00:03:32work um it's not in graduate programs or
- 00:03:34anything like that so there's no
- 00:03:37practice that we have as Educators with
- 00:03:39talking about it with each other there's
- 00:03:41no common language there's no common
- 00:03:43research base um there's there's no real
- 00:03:46um support to talk about it and when an
- 00:03:48administrator comes and talks to it or
- 00:03:50tries to lead a conversation there's
- 00:03:52lots of power dynamics that can be felt
- 00:03:55um you know around like a protection of
- 00:03:58autonomy or um you know wanting to make
- 00:04:01sure that my authority isn't compromised
- 00:04:04and my judgment isn't questioned and and
- 00:04:07it and I think grading also gets into
- 00:04:09aspects of teacher identity you know who
- 00:04:11am I in a classroom and what is my
- 00:04:13relationship and role you know with my
- 00:04:16students and so I think it's just kind
- 00:04:18of fraught unfortunately with a lot of
- 00:04:21Deep Emotions and and d and challenges
- 00:04:25and so what I wanted to do is help
- 00:04:26normalize conversations about grading
- 00:04:28it's we should should be talking about
- 00:04:30it as much as we talk about assessment
- 00:04:32or curriculum design or you know all the
- 00:04:35other aspects of our classroom and we
- 00:04:37should be doing it with each other might
- 00:04:39you clarify that the difference between
- 00:04:41assessing and Grading yeah so um grading
- 00:04:45as I think about it is the formal
- 00:04:48reporting of where students are in their
- 00:04:51learning progression toward meeting
- 00:04:53certain course outcomes um okay and you
- 00:04:57know that can be done when I say formal
- 00:04:59know it doesn't have to be like the
- 00:05:01transcript it could be you know saying
- 00:05:03to students you know this is where you
- 00:05:05are right now um and kind of getting
- 00:05:07into more of a feedback sort of area uh
- 00:05:10whereas assessing is really the the
- 00:05:13method by which you ascertain where
- 00:05:16students are in their learning question
- 00:05:17because I think people get confused and
- 00:05:20start you know using words in lots of
- 00:05:22different ways and so and and I don't
- 00:05:23even think grading is necessarily like
- 00:05:25the a through f scale it could be any
- 00:05:27way that you formally report students
- 00:05:30are in they're learning and does it have
- 00:05:31to accompany like assigning a value so
- 00:05:33it doesn't have to be an ABC or D but
- 00:05:35there's some Mastery or failure or is
- 00:05:38there some like that's the the act of
- 00:05:40grading is assigning it some kind of a
- 00:05:42value yeah I think um it's essentially
- 00:05:46naming where the student is in their
- 00:05:48learning progression you know if I'm
- 00:05:50trying to be able to you know make 10
- 00:05:54free throws in a row how many have I
- 00:05:56made so far where you know what's my
- 00:05:59biggest sort of Gap in doing it the the
- 00:06:02number that I need to make or you know
- 00:06:03if I'm trying to you know demonstrate
- 00:06:05that I understand the Pythagorean
- 00:06:06theorem where am I in my learning
- 00:06:09progression the school leaders project
- 00:06:11is brought to you by toddle you're
- 00:06:12all-in-one teaching and learning
- 00:06:13platform made for teachers and by
- 00:06:15teachers if you're interested in more
- 00:06:17Equitable grading and switching towards
- 00:06:19more competency or portfolio based style
- 00:06:22grading todal really supports you
- 00:06:24because it breaks down your curriculum
- 00:06:26and it helps us to tell the learning
- 00:06:28story to see the picture of what's
- 00:06:30happening in our grade books and what's
- 00:06:31really happening in our classrooms so if
- 00:06:34you want to learn more about toddle and
- 00:06:35how it can support your grading practice
- 00:06:37find out at total app.com that makes a
- 00:06:40lot of sense and I think that also hits
- 00:06:41a nail in the head of of a potential
- 00:06:44frustration in class rooms is that we
- 00:06:46often don't have a clear Benchmark of
- 00:06:48what success looks like and what those
- 00:06:50tiers of progression of success looks
- 00:06:52like so somebody says justify why this
- 00:06:55is a b or a c or whatever scale you're
- 00:06:58using and there's those Flags go up well
- 00:07:00I just know because there's not that
- 00:07:02shared like you said shared language
- 00:07:04shared culture shared vernacular you
- 00:07:07touched a little bit earlier on kind of
- 00:07:09how the history of grading has led to a
- 00:07:11lot of the the cultural aspects of
- 00:07:14grading that we see now might you give
- 00:07:16us a little bit of kind of like the The
- 00:07:17Flash history of what we should know
- 00:07:19about where grading comes from yeah I
- 00:07:21mean the the ways that we grade now are
- 00:07:24really almost identical to how we graded
- 00:07:27a 100 years ago so this is this type of
- 00:07:29grading um and when I say this type you
- 00:07:31know the idea that you have a through f
- 00:07:35um that you're using points to quantify
- 00:07:39those ideas was really um from the
- 00:07:41Industrial Revolution uh during the
- 00:07:43Industrial Revolution we were um really
- 00:07:46preoccupied with becoming a more
- 00:07:48efficient country um we were trying to
- 00:07:51compete with Europe and so we needed to
- 00:07:54figure out how we were going to cultur
- 00:07:56assimilate you know all these folks from
- 00:07:58rural areas and from and the people from
- 00:08:01overseas to be ready to work in
- 00:08:03factories and so we needed to sort them
- 00:08:06um and the letter system the ABCD F was
- 00:08:09in large part so that we could put
- 00:08:12students into academic tracks because we
- 00:08:14didn't want to waste resources on Lower
- 00:08:16tracks right so we were trying to get
- 00:08:18efficient with who are going to be the
- 00:08:20bosses and who are going to be the
- 00:08:21workers and the abcdf enabled us to
- 00:08:24easily label students so that we knew
- 00:08:28what trajectory they were going to be on
- 00:08:30um we also yeah we were also really
- 00:08:34fascinated it's just so deterministic
- 00:08:36you know like this is who you are and
- 00:08:38this is who you will become absolutely
- 00:08:40absolutely and we were also really um
- 00:08:43interested in as I was saying a curating
- 00:08:45and assimilating all the folks from
- 00:08:47overseas that were um immigrating to the
- 00:08:49country and and um you know just trying
- 00:08:52to sort of establish who would be good
- 00:08:54workers and so we used um behaviorism to
- 00:08:58really affect effect behavior of
- 00:09:00students right behaviorism is the idea
- 00:09:02that you can most effectively motivate
- 00:09:05through positive and negative extrinsic
- 00:09:07reinforcement right rats in a cage with
- 00:09:09the pellet or the electricity on the on
- 00:09:11the cage and so we adopted a lot of
- 00:09:14those practices in the ways that we
- 00:09:16thought about um students so the whole
- 00:09:19point system managing them using points
- 00:09:21as an incentive strategy was all really
- 00:09:25from a hundred years ago and because
- 00:09:28we've teachers have never had access to
- 00:09:29the research and they've never really
- 00:09:32been taught how to grade most of us as
- 00:09:35Educators just replicate how we were
- 00:09:37graded and we just continue to use the
- 00:09:39same strategies the same techniques even
- 00:09:43though there's no research to support it
- 00:09:45in fact the research all points against
- 00:09:46what most teachers do something that
- 00:09:48comes to my mind here and this is a a
- 00:09:50theme or a trend that I feel across
- 00:09:53educational movements like whether it's
- 00:09:54No Child Left Behind or this industrial
- 00:09:57revolution of education is that like
- 00:10:00it came from a goodish place of
- 00:10:03intention the level the goal was to you
- 00:10:05know try to help people assimilate and
- 00:10:07and to to prepare them for what was
- 00:10:10success at that time and I think what we
- 00:10:12need to remember as teachers is that
- 00:10:14just because it was created that time
- 00:10:15with good intentions doesn't mean that
- 00:10:17those intentions serve us now and like
- 00:10:20those are the questions we need to be
- 00:10:21asking is is what is the function what
- 00:10:23is the endgame now and are my practices
- 00:10:25still in alignment with
- 00:10:27that yeah I I'm I'm a little less
- 00:10:30generous than you I'm a little more
- 00:10:32equiv um you know I think we were you
- 00:10:36know you had folks like Dewey and folks
- 00:10:38who were really thinking about like how
- 00:10:40can we really like build an educated
- 00:10:41citizenship and then we had other folks
- 00:10:43who were like we need workers we need
- 00:10:46workers and we had other folks who were
- 00:10:48like let's educate all kids and other
- 00:10:50folks who were like nah we don't want to
- 00:10:52educate all kids that's not really
- 00:10:54important to us I think the biggest
- 00:10:56thing is really to your point is that
- 00:10:58things are different now like we have
- 00:10:59different belief systems right we we
- 00:11:02believe all kids can learn right and we
- 00:11:05create standards that we believe just
- 00:11:08about every kid can hit right and we
- 00:11:11also believe that they should get to
- 00:11:12decide what they want to do with their
- 00:11:13lives right we don't want to sort of
- 00:11:15lock them into a particular academic
- 00:11:17track that they can never
- 00:11:20escape and we also know that intrinsic
- 00:11:23motivation is a much better motivator
- 00:11:25extrinsic motivation is actually a
- 00:11:26pretty bad motivator um yeah
- 00:11:30so you know we've got to think about
- 00:11:32what we want in our schools and what
- 00:11:34what the research says about effective
- 00:11:35teaching and learning and apply those to
- 00:11:38every aspect of our practice including
- 00:11:40grading I love that oh progress um might
- 00:11:46you speak a little bit to the
- 00:11:47traditional grading system and when you
- 00:11:49see it happening in
- 00:11:50schools what is the effect on not only
- 00:11:53student performance but just kind of on
- 00:11:55the culture of a school when we're using
- 00:11:58those outdated practices
- 00:12:01um well I mean it's one that probably
- 00:12:04most of us are very familiar with
- 00:12:05because we were in those schools so it's
- 00:12:08where teachers use a lot of points
- 00:12:11there's the points are the primary sort
- 00:12:13of uh you know language of learning um
- 00:12:19kids talk about points teachers talk
- 00:12:21about points um you know I think that's
- 00:12:24and and it can be really stressful for
- 00:12:27students um at both ends of the sort of
- 00:12:31ends of the success sort of trajectory
- 00:12:34right the students who are you know
- 00:12:36really super consumed with getting an a
- 00:12:39all the time and they feel the pressure
- 00:12:41and they um have oftentimes a fixed
- 00:12:43mindset around who they are and what
- 00:12:46mistakes might mean um and then students
- 00:12:48at the other end who just generally
- 00:12:51haven't been very successful in schools
- 00:12:53and so they just keep seeing the same
- 00:12:55thing at low points and they just can
- 00:12:57never claw their way out
- 00:12:59um out of a a zero to 100 scale that's
- 00:13:03very demoralizing it is really
- 00:13:05architecturally sort of built to
- 00:13:08disproportionately punish students um so
- 00:13:11there's a lot of stress and a lot of
- 00:13:13talking about points um and I think that
- 00:13:17there's a lot of ways in which um that
- 00:13:20creates classrooms that are performance
- 00:13:22spaces that you know if I go into a
- 00:13:24class and I know that every day I will
- 00:13:27get up to Five Points points based on
- 00:13:30whether I have my materials or whether I
- 00:13:32raise my hand or whether I come in on
- 00:13:34time um and every discussion is included
- 00:13:39in the grade and you know every T every
- 00:13:41time there's classwork is included in
- 00:13:43the grade when everything's included in
- 00:13:44the grade it it adds to stress and it
- 00:13:46creates places where students can't
- 00:13:48relax and they can't have an off day
- 00:13:51because everything counts um so I think
- 00:13:54those are kind of two sort of cultural
- 00:13:57ways and sort of atmospheric ways that
- 00:13:59the ways that we we grade changes how
- 00:14:02schools are in ways that we don't want
- 00:14:04them to
- 00:14:05be right because you extrapolate that
- 00:14:07you think 10 years down the road and I
- 00:14:09was one of those kids I was I loved the
- 00:14:11tests and I loved you know being the top
- 00:14:14performer but what does that do for your
- 00:14:16sense of purpose and value
- 00:14:19and identity when those things are no
- 00:14:21longer there and and what does life look
- 00:14:23like and how do you motivate it's we
- 00:14:25leave our kids with this really big gap
- 00:14:28of purpose I think when when we create
- 00:14:30those kinds of
- 00:14:31cultures and you know unfortunately kids
- 00:14:34come into schools not talking like that
- 00:14:36right when you go into kindergarten
- 00:14:37classrooms first grade classrooms kids
- 00:14:39are just into learning and they're they
- 00:14:41make mistakes and everybody knows it and
- 00:14:43they keep trying and um you know it's
- 00:14:46not until really like third fourth grade
- 00:14:49Upper Elementary where teachers start
- 00:14:51talking about points and managing
- 00:14:54Behavior through points and and that's
- 00:14:56where it all starts um and I think think
- 00:14:59one of the things teachers find when
- 00:15:00they change how they grade to grade more
- 00:15:02equitably is they find that students
- 00:15:04actually haven't
- 00:15:06forgotten what it means to be
- 00:15:08intrinsically motivated to learn and to
- 00:15:10be comfortable making mistakes and like
- 00:15:13all the and to stop talking about points
- 00:15:15all the time they they actually can
- 00:15:17remember that and come back to that with
- 00:15:19teachers help I like that might you talk
- 00:15:22about some of those shifts I feel like I
- 00:15:24kind of got ahead of us here of talking
- 00:15:25about the culture of of both but could
- 00:15:28you talk about some of the shifts that
- 00:15:29lead us from this more traditional
- 00:15:31approach towards a more Equitable
- 00:15:33approach to
- 00:15:34grading yeah so people are like well
- 00:15:37what is this then you talked what is
- 00:15:39it yeah um so Equitable grading is it
- 00:15:42really has three pillars it's where
- 00:15:44grades accurately describe where
- 00:15:47students are in they're learning it
- 00:15:49they're bias resistant so grading
- 00:15:51counteracts some of the institutional
- 00:15:53biases and prevents our own implicit
- 00:15:56biases from infecting the grade
- 00:15:59and then it's where grades are
- 00:16:01motivational they build students
- 00:16:02intrinsic motivation and their sense of
- 00:16:05efficacy and self-regulation skills so
- 00:16:08there's a whole lot in those three
- 00:16:10pillars um you know I think one kind of
- 00:16:15I'll sort of take a them one at a time a
- 00:16:17little bit so around accuracy you know
- 00:16:19there's I mentioned the 0o to 100 scale
- 00:16:22and it's really helping us as teachers
- 00:16:25better understand why the the
- 00:16:28architecture of that that scale makes it
- 00:16:29so mathematically unsound um to use um
- 00:16:33and what are alternatives to using that
- 00:16:35I'm not I don't I'm not you know saying
- 00:16:38we shouldn't use numbers to describe
- 00:16:39where students are or we shouldn't you
- 00:16:41know have ways of um defining it in
- 00:16:44gradations but there's a lot of problems
- 00:16:46with the 0o to 100 scale um and we can
- 00:16:49make that better using zero to four or
- 00:16:521: four um for example then there's the
- 00:16:55bias resistance so in many ways
- 00:16:57traditional grading
- 00:16:59um
- 00:17:01incorporates um things outside of
- 00:17:03students's control into the grade these
- 00:17:05are sort of the institutional biases so
- 00:17:08you know students whose um families are
- 00:17:10of lower income um you know they're less
- 00:17:13likely to be able to do some of the
- 00:17:16things that are traditionally included
- 00:17:17in grading like extra credit assignment
- 00:17:20like you know you go to the movie based
- 00:17:22on the book or you you know bring in
- 00:17:25cupcakes for the potluck we have at the
- 00:17:27end of The Learning
- 00:17:29or you know things like that that
- 00:17:31require resources you know time money
- 00:17:34supervision something like that um so
- 00:17:36it's making sure those things aren't
- 00:17:38included in the grade um as well as
- 00:17:41implicit biases you know a lot of times
- 00:17:43teachers will um ask students to behave
- 00:17:46in certain ways whether it's you know
- 00:17:48you need to sit quietly in your seat or
- 00:17:51um you need to take notes um a
- 00:17:54particular way um which really doesn't
- 00:17:57and often times what a teacher is doing
- 00:17:59is their um creates this they create an
- 00:18:02archetype of what they look like when
- 00:18:04they're learning effectively and compare
- 00:18:07students to that and reward them if they
- 00:18:08match and punish them if they don't
- 00:18:10match even though there's a whole
- 00:18:12universe of ways that people learn um
- 00:18:15and and can be uh and then the final is
- 00:18:18around motivation you know a lot of
- 00:18:20times we do things in our grades that
- 00:18:22demotivate students um and we can be
- 00:18:26more motivational by for example um
- 00:18:29looking at where students are in the end
- 00:18:31of their learning rather than sort of
- 00:18:33include every mistake they make along
- 00:18:35the way because if you include when
- 00:18:37students make mistakes and that in in
- 00:18:39the grade um it's going to demotivate
- 00:18:41them and instead if you said yeah make
- 00:18:43mistakes those mistakes aren't going to
- 00:18:45be included in the grade only how you
- 00:18:47are at the end you keep students engaged
- 00:18:49and motivated to keep learning and keep
- 00:18:51taking risks in their learning so that
- 00:18:54was like a super uh big overview you see
- 00:18:58me here just like scribbling like a
- 00:19:00crazy person I have so many questions
- 00:19:01for
- 00:19:02you well there is a whole book on this
- 00:19:04there is a whole book okay
- 00:19:07[Laughter]
- 00:19:10Joe could you just dig a little bit more
- 00:19:12into the zero to 100 because I this is
- 00:19:15probably a fallacy of thinking on my
- 00:19:17part but I guess when I hear 0er to 100
- 00:19:19I think oh I can be more accurate
- 00:19:20because kid is exactly a 78 versus a one
- 00:19:23through four then I'm just jumping into
- 00:19:25this you're just a three so how is it
- 00:19:27more accurate to to move towards a
- 00:19:29smaller
- 00:19:30scale um okay so
- 00:19:34I'm with
- 00:19:36you you're not the first person to ask
- 00:19:39let's first talk about interr
- 00:19:41reliability I'm gonna get a little
- 00:19:43statistical on you so when you have
- 00:19:47multiple gradations right from zero to
- 00:19:50100 and you ask and you ask two teachers
- 00:19:53to look at a piece of student work the
- 00:19:55more gradations you have the more likely
- 00:19:58that those teach ERS will not agree on
- 00:20:00where those those that student is right
- 00:20:03because they have so many choices to
- 00:20:05make in them um the fewer gradations the
- 00:20:08more likely that teachers will match on
- 00:20:10those right it's like if I asked people
- 00:20:12to um estimate the width of the room and
- 00:20:15I told them to do it in inches they're
- 00:20:18going to be a lot more variance in their
- 00:20:20answers than if I say measure it in
- 00:20:21yards estimated in yards right they'll
- 00:20:24be a lot more likely to be so there's a
- 00:20:27value in having teachers having a
- 00:20:30student's work be get the same grade
- 00:20:33regardless of which teacher is looking
- 00:20:35at it and the fewer gradations the more
- 00:20:38likely you will have that consistency so
- 00:20:40there's a real value in having fewer
- 00:20:41rather than
- 00:20:43more the so it's
- 00:20:46random yeah I mean it's not random from
- 00:20:49the teachers point of view right they're
- 00:20:50trying to be super precise right but the
- 00:20:53problem is that they're going to be much
- 00:20:54more likely to be different from each
- 00:20:56other which is much more confusing than
- 00:20:58to the
- 00:21:00student that's where the bias comes in
- 00:21:02like that implicit of like oh well like
- 00:21:04I was actually looking to see that your
- 00:21:05handwriting was neat and that's what
- 00:21:07pushed you to a 72 instead of a 79 and
- 00:21:09the other teacher's like I don't care
- 00:21:10about
- 00:21:11handwriting yeah and that could have I
- 00:21:14mean and that's also got to be figured
- 00:21:16out like what do we include and not in
- 00:21:17the grade and what constitutes right
- 00:21:19that's that gets into calibration like
- 00:21:21well what is a three what is a b what is
- 00:21:23a C+ right um you're hitting you're
- 00:21:26getting it all the complexity this um
- 00:21:29the second reason is that it's a little
- 00:21:31artificial right so if I said you know
- 00:21:35uh to an English teacher tell me the
- 00:21:37difference between a student who is at a
- 00:21:4084 and a student who's at an 85 what's
- 00:21:43the difference between those two
- 00:21:44students in their writing skills right
- 00:21:46one brought the cupcak Jo well well or
- 00:21:49one is higher than the one is one point
- 00:21:51higher than the other that that's the
- 00:21:53best right um so I think that it's a
- 00:21:56little artificial to believe
- 00:21:59that you can really make those
- 00:22:01gradations in it even you know Math
- 00:22:03teachers or science teachers or
- 00:22:05something that has you know I had 100
- 00:22:07points and you got 86 of them you didn't
- 00:22:09get 85 you got 86 right you still it's
- 00:22:12still artificial because you have made
- 00:22:15questions what you wanted to make them
- 00:22:17and you have scored them in the way that
- 00:22:19you wanted them to be so in 86 in
- 00:22:22algebra two can mean anything regardless
- 00:22:26you know depending on which teacher you
- 00:22:27have for it when you have fewer
- 00:22:30gradations you could say a b c DF right
- 00:22:34let's just say in or you know one to
- 00:22:36four which is the same thing I could say
- 00:22:39okay I'm teaching the Pythagorean
- 00:22:40theorem right what is a level
- 00:22:43understanding the Pythagorean theorem
- 00:22:45what's B level understanding what's C
- 00:22:46Level understanding What's d level
- 00:22:48understanding and then if I want I can
- 00:22:50do pluses and minuses because maybe
- 00:22:52there's a little bit of variance in
- 00:22:54there but then we can come to agreements
- 00:22:57as Math teachers right we can look at a
- 00:22:59bunch of student work we can understand
- 00:23:02that these are B level so now when a
- 00:23:05student does a piece of work on them on
- 00:23:07the Pythagorean theorem I don't have to
- 00:23:09say you're eight out of 24 or 16 out of
- 00:23:1290 or whatever I can look at it and be
- 00:23:14you know the totality of what you've
- 00:23:16just shown me shows me that you're at a
- 00:23:18B level understanding and it's so much
- 00:23:21simpler um you know it's it's so much
- 00:23:25clear and simple and it's very similar
- 00:23:27to what students have in elementary
- 00:23:29school and it's the GPA scale so that's
- 00:23:31a snap um the the other problem around
- 00:23:35the 0100 scale is around the
- 00:23:37mathematical and soundus is when because
- 00:23:39we have a scale in which we have twoth
- 00:23:42thirds of it um that describe gradations
- 00:23:45of failure right from zero to high
- 00:23:5060s is basically subpar performance
- 00:23:54right and we're saying we as your
- 00:23:56Educators we think that it's you know
- 00:23:58really important that we distinguish a
- 00:24:0019 from a 26 to a 28 to a 31 from a 32
- 00:24:04like we have all these levels of
- 00:24:06describing failure failure and then we
- 00:24:08have about a third of the scale to
- 00:24:10describing success or competence right
- 00:24:12so that's weird right off the bat right
- 00:24:14that doesn't send a great message to
- 00:24:16students and when you've got a scale
- 00:24:19that's designed like that when you get
- 00:24:21low scores it it has exerts a
- 00:24:24gravitational pull on everything else
- 00:24:27right we teachers know that kid gets a
- 00:24:29zero that's an atomic zero right that
- 00:24:32will just pull down the grades
- 00:24:35disproportionately because we're using a
- 00:24:38scale that has this kind of architecture
- 00:24:39there's nothing sacrosanct about 0 to
- 00:24:41100 nobody uses 0 to 100 outside
- 00:24:44education at all right anytime you have
- 00:24:46to demonstrate competency bar exam
- 00:24:49medical boards nursing architecture
- 00:24:53nothing driver's license nobody uses 0
- 00:24:55to 100 scale right they have a cut SC
- 00:24:58score or cut number and that's it right
- 00:25:01there's just no reason for us to use
- 00:25:04that anymore that's really cool and one
- 00:25:07thing I and I'm not sure if you noticed
- 00:25:08this in even in your language when you
- 00:25:10switch from talking to 0 to 100 to 1 to
- 00:25:13four all of what you described of
- 00:25:15Student Success became understanding
- 00:25:17language you know instead of I think we
- 00:25:19can get so pulled down into the
- 00:25:20nitty-gritties of like skills and
- 00:25:22acquisition of knowledge and these
- 00:25:23nitty-gritty things but when you zoom
- 00:25:25into those compet or zoom out into
- 00:25:27competencies it becomes these higher
- 00:25:28level what will students understand what
- 00:25:31will they take away and we turn our
- 00:25:33minds then towards transfer as opposed
- 00:25:35to just like myopically focused on
- 00:25:37success now which is really
- 00:25:39cool I like that would you say that
- 00:25:41that's the biggest shift like moving
- 00:25:43away from the zero to 100 is like the
- 00:25:45biggest easiest shift a school can just
- 00:25:48like do right off the back and like make
- 00:25:50their school more
- 00:25:51Equitable I know I'm not gonna say that
- 00:25:54because because it's um it's very
- 00:25:57tempting for the reason you just
- 00:25:59described oh what a snap
- 00:26:05I piece of cake it is really difficult
- 00:26:10because again like I think
- 00:26:14teachers I think it's a common error
- 00:26:16actually of um school and District
- 00:26:19leaders is where they see this glaring
- 00:26:21problem and it seems like a no-brainer
- 00:26:24like why wouldn't you change it knowing
- 00:26:27what you know right so they're like all
- 00:26:29right I'll make a policy that'll solve
- 00:26:30it and what it does is it doesn't really
- 00:26:33acknowledge the the need for us to build
- 00:26:37the capacity in our teachers to
- 00:26:39understand the why they actually this is
- 00:26:42these are not technical changes these
- 00:26:43are adaptive ones and ones that are
- 00:26:45based on deep Theory and ideas and
- 00:26:50teachers can all get there because they
- 00:26:52can learn why it's bad and why it harms
- 00:26:55students and why it isn't helpful for
- 00:26:56them and how it can actually improve
- 00:26:58improve their practice they can learn
- 00:26:59those things I mean we work with
- 00:27:00teachers and help them and once they
- 00:27:03work it through they have to think well
- 00:27:06what do I do about if I have a minimum
- 00:27:0750 do I like and a kid doesn't hand
- 00:27:10something in what do I do do I make it a
- 00:27:1250 I don't like that and do I do
- 00:27:14something different or if I have a zero
- 00:27:15to four or one to four you know now I
- 00:27:18don't have as many choices and like how
- 00:27:20do I explain this to te to parents and
- 00:27:22what about the software like I have a
- 00:27:24grading software that doesn't allow me
- 00:27:26to put in one or two three four it only
- 00:27:28has percentages what do I do about that
- 00:27:30like there's just and then parents have
- 00:27:32to be educated wait a minute why is
- 00:27:34where's my kids percentage I thought
- 00:27:37they were always going to get a
- 00:27:38percentage what have you done why are
- 00:27:39you messing with my kid so there's
- 00:27:42there's so many complexities around
- 00:27:44there and it requires really um
- 00:27:47deliberate
- 00:27:48education um and just dialogue to help
- 00:27:52engage all the constituents that you
- 00:27:55serve around why
- 00:27:58the why of this and why improving
- 00:28:01grading to be more fair and accurate is
- 00:28:03really a lever for larger instructional
- 00:28:06change it's not like this tiny little
- 00:28:08bow on the end of the at the end of the
- 00:28:10present like this will re help everybody
- 00:28:13in the system better understand what
- 00:28:15we're here for and what we're trying to
- 00:28:17communicate and expect of our students
- 00:28:20so just as Leaders we're not looking for
- 00:28:22the product we're not looking for the
- 00:28:24final quick fix we're looking to make
- 00:28:26space and time for these valuable
- 00:28:28discussions and for that
- 00:28:30thinking because you could like you said
- 00:28:32you could just come in and mandate
- 00:28:33something but then the culture isn't
- 00:28:35going to change and that's what we're
- 00:28:36after as school leaders is a systemic
- 00:28:38and cultural change yep and you're
- 00:28:40really touching on this pressure point
- 00:28:42of teachers if you start changing how
- 00:28:44they grade because as I said like they
- 00:28:46protect this space they are the
- 00:28:48authority so you know do this at your
- 00:28:51own risk leaders we've seen it I mean
- 00:28:54I'm a former leader and I get it I get
- 00:28:55you want to solve the problem um but
- 00:28:57we've just seen too many times the
- 00:28:59administrators get ahead of the teachers
- 00:29:01too far ahead of them and that's when
- 00:29:03the problems start happening so where do
- 00:29:05you begin Joe like because it's a
- 00:29:07sensitive topic it's a topic that takes
- 00:29:09a lot of time and shift in practice and
- 00:29:12unen trenching and grained habits so if
- 00:29:16you were a school leader recognizing in
- 00:29:18this chat like oh dang I think my
- 00:29:19grading is a little bit more on the
- 00:29:21biased side what's that first leaping
- 00:29:23spot for you you start with educating
- 00:29:25the people around you and coming on to a
- 00:29:27getting to a common um ground with the
- 00:29:31other leaders in your school or in your
- 00:29:34District so that you all can agree that
- 00:29:38this is something to prioritize and
- 00:29:41there's a some urgency around it and it
- 00:29:44actually until we do this we will never
- 00:29:48get to our our the outcomes we want I
- 00:29:50mean we we can have the most amazing
- 00:29:53curriculum and incredible you know
- 00:29:56multimodal assessment Strate strategies
- 00:29:59and culturally sustaining pedagogy and
- 00:30:01diverse curriculum and all kind Hands-On
- 00:30:04learning and it can all get undermined
- 00:30:07if we house it all within our
- 00:30:09traditional grading system and I think
- 00:30:12if leaders can get on the same page
- 00:30:14about that why um that's step one and
- 00:30:18you know they'll take time they'll spend
- 00:30:20you know a semester reading the book or
- 00:30:22we'll do just workshops for leaders and
- 00:30:24that includes board members right and
- 00:30:27maybe it's teachers union leadership as
- 00:30:29well or Department chairs right we all
- 00:30:31got to like agree that this is something
- 00:30:34worth our time and worth our energy um
- 00:30:38and then I think the next step that we
- 00:30:39found most effective is where you start
- 00:30:41with finding a set of teachers who are
- 00:30:46interested um have the social capital
- 00:30:49have capacity in terms of time or
- 00:30:52experience or or stiens or something who
- 00:30:56can actually go deep into this work can
- 00:30:58start trying the different practices um
- 00:31:00that's the primary way that we partner
- 00:31:03with schools and districts is to work
- 00:31:04with a cohort of teachers over a couple
- 00:31:07years to build their capacity to help be
- 00:31:10resources for colleagues and to generate
- 00:31:12an Evidence base for the district that
- 00:31:15says look this isn't just in this book
- 00:31:18like when we stopped doing X great
- 00:31:21things happened when I changed to a one
- 00:31:23to four scale when I stopped including
- 00:31:25homework in the grade which I haven't
- 00:31:26talked about or when and I you know
- 00:31:29stopped including extra credit and I did
- 00:31:31this and I used rubrics and all these
- 00:31:32kinds of things amazing things happened
- 00:31:36and that's what I think is so important
- 00:31:38for a district to generate and to have
- 00:31:41in order to help to then start moving it
- 00:31:44throughout the system that ultimately
- 00:31:46leads to policy change well and what a
- 00:31:48beautiful space to Center the discussion
- 00:31:50on because I think it can easily all of
- 00:31:52these discussions around assessment and
- 00:31:54what's worth assessing can just feel so
- 00:31:56big and overwhelming but but grading is
- 00:31:59almost this like this Touchstone that we
- 00:32:00can all come back
- 00:32:02to and I think that if you were to make
- 00:32:04those shifts in the in the grading
- 00:32:06itself that it would trickle into those
- 00:32:08other aspects of of assessment and
- 00:32:10culture and
- 00:32:11beliefs yeah I mean one of the one of
- 00:32:13the kind of great things about talking
- 00:32:15about grading is everybody everybody has
- 00:32:17an opinion and they're they all feel
- 00:32:19deeply invested in it right once you
- 00:32:21start talking about grading people are
- 00:32:22like it's about me this is this is
- 00:32:25really important to me because I've
- 00:32:26spent a lot of my time figuring this out
- 00:32:28and I know that I haven't based it on
- 00:32:30anything except what I experienced so
- 00:32:33I'm engaged and even though it's about
- 00:32:35grading it really is not just about
- 00:32:37grading because once to your very Point
- 00:32:40once you start talking about these
- 00:32:41things and opening them up you start
- 00:32:43opening up other discussions around
- 00:32:45assessment and how do we give feedback
- 00:32:48to students and how do we help engage
- 00:32:51them if not through points every day for
- 00:32:54every activity right it starts opening
- 00:32:56up all these other discussions that are
- 00:32:58really valuable um and should be had and
- 00:33:00this is a this is a vehicle to get to
- 00:33:03those kinds of
- 00:33:04questions it reminds me of doing like a
- 00:33:06home renovation project you're like I'm
- 00:33:08just gonna change This little light
- 00:33:09fixture and then you take it off and the
- 00:33:11Box of Lies unveils
- 00:33:14itself Joe we've spent a lot of the
- 00:33:17conversation looking backwards you know
- 00:33:19at grading and an assessment and I'm
- 00:33:22curious because I'm guessing in your
- 00:33:23work you've gotten to be in some cool
- 00:33:26spaces where you're seeing the fure
- 00:33:27future now so what are you excited about
- 00:33:31in the future of grading like what
- 00:33:32really Sparks you either things you've
- 00:33:34seen or things that you hope to see in
- 00:33:36the next few
- 00:33:37years I think that
- 00:33:39um you know 10 years ago when I first
- 00:33:43started doing this work there weren't a
- 00:33:45lot of people talking about it um there
- 00:33:47was a group you know standards-based
- 00:33:49grading was there and people were
- 00:33:51talking about it and they you know
- 00:33:52Mastery grading I mean there there were
- 00:33:54there was kind of language out there but
- 00:33:56I think particularly as I said because
- 00:33:58of the pandemic it really accelerated
- 00:33:59people's interest in it and so I think
- 00:34:02there's a lot more people talking about
- 00:34:03it and which I think makes it a lot
- 00:34:05easier for schools and districts to
- 00:34:08start having the conversations too and
- 00:34:09they don't feel so alone in it um I
- 00:34:13think it's really cool that um College
- 00:34:16uh and University faculty are talking
- 00:34:18about it too um even you know I've been
- 00:34:21having conversations with folks um in
- 00:34:25the college admissions world yes um and
- 00:34:28they are very aware that teachers grade
- 00:34:32in all kinds of different ways and
- 00:34:34aren't necessarily very trustworthy
- 00:34:37oftentimes and they you know we we we
- 00:34:41sort of see this pendulum of um the SAT
- 00:34:44and ACT standardized testing come back
- 00:34:47where it's now starting to be required
- 00:34:49in more College admissions processes
- 00:34:51even though it kind of went away from
- 00:34:53the pandemic it's now coming back and I
- 00:34:56think part of it is because when
- 00:34:58teachers grading is so variable and
- 00:35:01we're seeing some evidence that suggest
- 00:35:03there's greater grade inflation from
- 00:35:05grades than there had been that
- 00:35:08admissions folks need to rely on
- 00:35:11something some Metric right so they can
- 00:35:13trust the um the grade and I think if
- 00:35:18and and they will say if we know that
- 00:35:21the grade represents a student's level
- 00:35:22of understanding of the course content
- 00:35:25that would be so helpful but right now
- 00:35:28the grade is like this um this uh
- 00:35:31Omnibus grade is what um it's been
- 00:35:34called where the ideaas it includes how
- 00:35:37they did on homework and did they raise
- 00:35:38their hand and how they do on the test
- 00:35:39and how they do on this unit and did
- 00:35:41they come on time and did they hand it
- 00:35:43in on time like all those things get
- 00:35:45compressed and collapsed into the grade
- 00:35:47so it could mean anything right a
- 00:35:49student could be uh could have a b
- 00:35:51because they know the content super well
- 00:35:54but they always came in late and every
- 00:35:55assignment was late or they could have a
- 00:35:57be because they didn't know the content
- 00:35:59so well but they were wonderful they
- 00:36:02were just an angel and they did all the
- 00:36:04extra credit stuff and so and they just
- 00:36:07really connected with the teacher and
- 00:36:08that kid has to be and so as long as
- 00:36:10that's the case I think we teachers are
- 00:36:13really inviting and Licensing the
- 00:36:17standardized testing world to do its
- 00:36:19thing um you know I don't love
- 00:36:21standardized test a lot of teachers
- 00:36:22don't like standardized test but we're
- 00:36:24letting it happen I think and and this
- 00:36:26is actually an opportunity to to build
- 00:36:29our credibility build our
- 00:36:30professionalism and and build trust I
- 00:36:33think in in the grade because we
- 00:36:35teachers are in the best position to
- 00:36:37describe students Readiness for the next
- 00:36:39level not a test but until we can really
- 00:36:43work out this this 100 year old problem
- 00:36:46and I think we're getting better at it
- 00:36:47until we work our way through it um or I
- 00:36:50think and when we work our way through
- 00:36:52it I think we'll really be um able to
- 00:36:54push back against standardized testing
- 00:36:56um and really establish ourselves um in
- 00:36:59the professionalism that um we deserve
- 00:37:02frankly so everybody's talking about AI
- 00:37:04right now um I think that AI can
- 00:37:08actually will help push Equitable
- 00:37:10grading in a couple ways one I think
- 00:37:13that um well one of the really big
- 00:37:17aspects of the motivational pillar is to
- 00:37:19make grading transparent um make the
- 00:37:21expectations transparent right so if I'm
- 00:37:24I'm going to go back to my Pythagorean
- 00:37:25theorem if I expect you to know the
- 00:37:26Pythagorean theorem I'm going to tell
- 00:37:28you what level of understanding you have
- 00:37:30to demonstrate that that would describe
- 00:37:34your understanding as an A B C D right I
- 00:37:36just it's a rubric it's a proficiency
- 00:37:38scale and AI is can be really helpful in
- 00:37:42generating proficiency scales right you
- 00:37:44could say you know here's an here's an
- 00:37:47example of an A B C DF or here's three
- 00:37:50examples of each and here are the
- 00:37:52criteria create a rubric right right and
- 00:37:55I and then you could even have students
- 00:37:58submit um uh samples of the work and
- 00:38:01then have ai tell where they fit on the
- 00:38:04rubric right and I think you could get
- 00:38:06immediate feedback yeah immediate
- 00:38:08feedback around fixed standards fixed
- 00:38:10outcomes that would at least help to
- 00:38:13mitigate biases would um have feedback
- 00:38:17more quickly and we know how important
- 00:38:19it is to have quick feedback you know I
- 00:38:21don't know that I would use that for
- 00:38:22summative assessment and kind of final
- 00:38:25judgments um of teachers but I think
- 00:38:28that in itself could be a huge driver in
- 00:38:32in getting this this work to get um to
- 00:38:34move a little faster
- 00:38:37um yeah I think that I think there's
- 00:38:40something
- 00:38:41there the thing I hear from teachers are
- 00:38:44a big like a bulk against AI being used
- 00:38:47in that way is they're like okay so the
- 00:38:49AI is going to create the assignment and
- 00:38:51the student's going to use AI to
- 00:38:52complete the assignment and then the AI
- 00:38:54is going to assess the assignment like
- 00:38:56that it becomes just this like a Loop do
- 00:38:58you worry about that at all like I'm I
- 00:39:00don't really worry about that that much
- 00:39:01but do you worry about it or how do we
- 00:39:03overcome that well I mean I think we've
- 00:39:06got to think about you know when a
- 00:39:08student is in front of us they have to
- 00:39:11sub they have to do the work on their
- 00:39:13own you know one of the one of the I
- 00:39:16think one of the um reasons why teachers
- 00:39:21fear AI is because there's no way that
- 00:39:24they can effectively control whether or
- 00:39:26not use it outside the classroom they
- 00:39:29they can kind of inside but they can't
- 00:39:31outside right so when they include here
- 00:39:33we go when they include homework in the
- 00:39:36grade they are building an incentive for
- 00:39:39students to use whatever means they can
- 00:39:41to complete the assignment in the most
- 00:39:43effective way right right my tutor my
- 00:39:46older brother my parent uh or AI right
- 00:39:50because all I'm asked to do is do the
- 00:39:52homework well enough so I get the
- 00:39:55maximum number of points the homework is
- 00:39:56essentially four for the teacher it's
- 00:39:58not for me it's for the teacher I got to
- 00:40:00show them that the best I can when
- 00:40:02teachers stop including homework in the
- 00:40:04grade and they say look it's for when
- 00:40:06you go out and shoot when yeah it's for
- 00:40:07you when you go out and shoot free
- 00:40:09throws in the backyard nobody's counting
- 00:40:11up your free throws and then bringing it
- 00:40:12to the game so when I assign homework
- 00:40:15it's practice you do it you want to use
- 00:40:18AI I don't care you want to do it on
- 00:40:20your own I don't care how do you learn
- 00:40:21Best But ultimately it's there to help
- 00:40:24you learn so when you have the
- 00:40:26assessment in class that's going to see
- 00:40:28where you are is just you so maybe I
- 00:40:32even open it up and take a poll of
- 00:40:34students who used AI last night who
- 00:40:35didn't use it how use it yeah how' to go
- 00:40:39then let's do a quiz and let's see like
- 00:40:41the people who used AI did they do
- 00:40:42better worse does it help you do better
- 00:40:45how did you use it help us understand
- 00:40:48exactly right and there might be kids
- 00:40:50who used it and didn't do well oh let's
- 00:40:51figure out what happened so it's not
- 00:40:53like this magical ticket to like help
- 00:40:55you do well you actually have to use in
- 00:40:57particular ways or maybe you don't need
- 00:40:59it but you do and that's okay right I
- 00:41:01think all these ways of when you don't
- 00:41:04include homework you open up these
- 00:41:07really important metacognitive and and
- 00:41:09other ways of thinking about learning to
- 00:41:12build students capacity to know how they
- 00:41:14learn best and what can make them
- 00:41:16successful so then they go to college
- 00:41:18where no one's you know dropping off
- 00:41:20points if they come late or checking to
- 00:41:23see where they did homework every day or
- 00:41:24when they go in the professional world
- 00:41:25right you didn't ask me Hey Joe how how
- 00:41:28long did you prep for this interview
- 00:41:30because you know I'm G to make it's
- 00:41:31going to be better or worse depending on
- 00:41:33how no if I do okay in this I know I
- 00:41:37prepped enough if I don't do okay I
- 00:41:38didn't prep enough or I didn't prep the
- 00:41:40right way right that's how the real
- 00:41:42professional World works and so we can
- 00:41:44help equip our students to be able to be
- 00:41:45successful in that world when we give
- 00:41:47them the chance to do
- 00:41:49it it's just I just love how it comes
- 00:41:52back to this larger theme of just
- 00:41:53removing punitive measures like so many
- 00:41:56times we use use assessment and graded
- 00:41:58grading as this punitive thing is like
- 00:42:00you said like it's that points culture
- 00:42:02and when we can shift
- 00:42:04towards learning is something I'm
- 00:42:06teaching you to do for yourself so that
- 00:42:08you can go and be successful in the
- 00:42:09world and this is a task I think would
- 00:42:11be helpful for you to do because I've
- 00:42:13know we noticed together that this is a
- 00:42:15skill that you're working on how much
- 00:42:17more meaningful of a conversation and a
- 00:42:19task is that for a kid versus like you
- 00:42:21know you're going to get more points if
- 00:42:23you do this homework of course you're
- 00:42:25going to use AI for that and I think
- 00:42:27that is ultimately what AI does for work
- 00:42:30now in schools is it challenges us to
- 00:42:32ask how do we communicate the value of
- 00:42:34this to our learners for themselves in
- 00:42:36their lives now and Beyond school so
- 00:42:40just get this beautiful thread there of
- 00:42:43just purpose and and
- 00:42:46intention yeah um there's this great
- 00:42:48quote that um the PE
- 00:42:51um the when you don't trust people you
- 00:42:54try and control them more um and when
- 00:42:57you control uh and when you trust people
- 00:43:00more you try to control them
- 00:43:02less um and I think there's really
- 00:43:05something in that that um students are
- 00:43:08really capable of pretty amazing things
- 00:43:12and sometimes we as teachers spend a lot
- 00:43:14of our time controlling their behavior
- 00:43:16and really preventing ourselves from
- 00:43:19seeing what students to do and certainly
- 00:43:20prevent them from showing it and and
- 00:43:22expressing it and growing in those areas
- 00:43:25um and you know we I think particularly
- 00:43:28have done that for historically
- 00:43:30underserved folks you know students of
- 00:43:31color black students latinx indigenous
- 00:43:33students and and students of lower
- 00:43:35income and have special needs I mean I
- 00:43:37think we have really used grading to
- 00:43:40punish those groups
- 00:43:42disproportionately um because we have
- 00:43:44particular ways that they should learn
- 00:43:46or particular things you know agendas
- 00:43:47that we're trying to or I shouldn't say
- 00:43:49agendas it's really not that like
- 00:43:50particular kind of ways of being that we
- 00:43:53use grading to push students to or away
- 00:43:56from from um and I think we can actually
- 00:44:00like get Beyond a lot of that through
- 00:44:02these ways you know we we we know that
- 00:44:05we have these kinds of biases in our
- 00:44:07grading like you know I I have students
- 00:44:09write their name on the back of the
- 00:44:10paper right because I know that if I see
- 00:44:12their name I might you know grade them
- 00:44:16differently and so I put have kids put
- 00:44:18their names on the back of the paper and
- 00:44:20I think that um you know this sort of
- 00:44:23controlling the environment um and not
- 00:44:27recognizing how I bring things into the
- 00:44:29environment that that make it a more
- 00:44:32controlling space I think is one that
- 00:44:34that this kind of work helps interrogate
- 00:44:36and open up o that is cool school
- 00:44:40leaders and teachers I think if you come
- 00:44:42away with one big question to to
- 00:44:45continue pondering in this episode it's
- 00:44:47it's what am I trying to control and who
- 00:44:49is being served by that and how would
- 00:44:52trust how would trust make everything
- 00:44:54better Trust
- 00:44:57a
- 00:45:00[Music]
- Grading practices
- Education reform
- Intrinsic motivation
- 0-100 scale
- Bias resistance
- Student engagement
- Educational history
- School leadership
- AI in education
- Cultural impact