Guidewire India | TechTalks

01:36:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOczaejker0

概要

TLDRKash, CTO di Zeroda, illustra la sua filosofia di vita come 'assurdità' e la sua esperienza nel mondo della tecnologia e dei mercati finanziari. Parla di come Zeroda abbia trasformato il settore del trading in India, operando una quota significativa degli investimenti al dettaglio con un piccolo team di 35 persone, grazie all'adozione dell'open source. Zeroda utilizza tecnologie come Redis e Go, e incoraggia i suoi sviluppatori a contribuire attivamente a progetti open source. Kash riflette sul significato culturale dell'open source in India, sottolineando che mentre esistono molti sviluppatori, la loro partecipazione effettiva ai progetti open source è limitata. Propone che le direzioni aziendali debbano promuovere una cultura di condivisione e contributo. Inoltre, Kash discute le controversie che circondano la sostenibilità finanziaria dei progetti open source e le possibili soluzioni future. Con un'inclinazione all'assurdo e alla frugalità, Kash dirige un'organizzazione che pone un grande enfasi sull'efficienza e sul continuo miglioramento attraverso l'innovazione tecnologica.

収穫

  • 🚀 Zeroda ha rivoluzionato il settore del trading in India.
  • 🧩 L'open source è fondamentale per l'innovazione tecnologica di Zeroda.
  • 📈 Zeroda gestisce una significativa fetta di investimenti al dettaglio in India.
  • 🎯 La filosofia di vita di Kash è basata sull'assurdità e le coincidenze.
  • 🤝 Il contributo open source è parte integrante della cultura aziendale di Zeroda.
  • 🛠️ Tecnologie come Redis e Go sono cruciali per Zeroda.
  • 🌐 Il supporto all'open source è incentivato anche finanziariamente da Zeroda.
  • 💡 L'innovazione continua è guidata da micro innovazioni e progetti R&S.
  • 💰 La sostenibilità finanziaria dell'open source è un tema di dibattito.
  • 📚 Kash promuove una cultura di apprendimento e collaborazione.

タイムライン

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Introduzione informale con il CTO di Zeroda, Kash, e discussione sull'evoluzione del mercato azionario più accessibile tramite tecnologia, paragonando l'acquisto di azioni al fare la spesa online.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Zeroda è una grande società di brokeraggio tecnologico in India, gestendo il 20% degli investimenti al dettaglio con un forte focus su tecnologia open source.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    L'importanza dell'open source: Kash spiega come ha imparato a programmare utilizzando e contribuendo a progetti open source e l'influenza di questo sullo sviluppo di Zeroda.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Come Zeroda ha sfruttato l'open source per costruire e scalare la propria infrastruttura tecnologica, sostituendo componenti vendor-based con soluzioni open source.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    La distinzione tra il codice proprietario e quello open source presso Zeroda e le sfide normative che impediscono di open source il codice della piattaforma di trading.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Discussione sull'approccio pratico di Kash all'uso e al contributo all'open source, sottolineando il saldo tra proprietà intellettuale e condivisione delle conoscenze.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Esplorazione delle esperienze tecniche passate di Kash, come la costruzione di uno dei suoi primi progetti open source di successo, un software di blogging chiamato B Machine.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Strategie di Zeroda per incentivare l'innovazione interna utilizzando cultura open source e collaborazione tra i membri del team.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    Pratiche di assunzione presso Zeroda: importa più l'atteggiamento e l'allenabilità di un candidato rispetto alle competenze specifiche, enfatizzando il lavoro di squadra.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Discussione sulle attività ricreative dei dipendenti, come giochi come Counter Strike, e l'innovazione continua tramite progetti di ricerca e sviluppo.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:00

    Valutazione della soluzione ai problemi tecnici e valutazione continua di tecnologie emergenti, come usando Clickhouse per migliorare le prestazioni del database.

  • 00:55:00 - 01:00:00

    Strategie per incoraggiare la cultura open source nelle aziende, suggerendo l'istituzione di programmi che promuovano attivamente i contributi open source.

  • 01:00:00 - 01:05:00

    Problematiche legate al finanziamento dei progetti open source e il ruolo delle aziende nel sostenerli finanziariamente.

  • 01:05:00 - 01:10:00

    Discussione sulla governance del software open source all'interno delle organizzazioni attraverso un Ufficio Programmi Open Source (OSPO).

  • 01:10:00 - 01:15:00

    Importanza delle licenze open source, con riflessioni su diverse tipologie come GPL e MIT, e il loro impatto sull'adozione tecnologica.

  • 01:15:00 - 01:20:00

    Anticipazioni sui progetti futuri di open source da Zeroda, inclusi aggiornamenti significativi a progetti esistenti.

  • 01:20:00 - 01:25:00

    Discorso accessorio sulle esperienze negative con Kubernetes e le alternative adottate da Zeroda per la gestione delle infrastrutture tecnologiche.

  • 01:25:00 - 01:30:00

    Problemi di sostenibilità e etica nell'open source, e le sfide poste dalla crescente commercializzazione dei progetti open source.

  • 01:30:00 - 01:36:28

    I progetti di Kash e Zeroda nel supportare la comunità con risorse open source e idee future alla scoperta delle potenzialità del mondo open source.

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マインドマップ

Mind Map

よくある質問

  • Chi è Kash?

    Kash è il CTO di Zeroda, la più grande società di intermediazione tecnologica in India.

  • Qual è la filosofia di Kash sull'assurdità?

    Kash si autodefinisce un assurdo sostenitore, credendo che la vita sia una serie di coincidenze fortunate piuttosto che grandi piani.

  • Che cos'è Zeroda?

    Zeroda è una società di tecnologia finanziaria che offre piattaforme di trading e investimenti, gestendo una parte significativa degli investimenti al dettaglio in India.

  • Come ha iniziato Kash la sua carriera nell'open source?

    Kash ha iniziato copiando e modificando codice che trovava online e lo condivideva nuovamente, scoprendo poi che questo approccio era la base dell'open source.

  • Come Zeroda favorisce l'open source?

    Zeroda incoraggia attivamente i suoi sviluppatori a usare e contribuire a progetti open source, sostenendo finanziariamente progetti da cui trae valore.

  • Perché Kash non ha mai eseguito uno scambio commerciale?

    Nonostante sia il CTO della più grande società di intermediazione in India, Kash non ha mai eseguito uno scambio perché si concentra sull'innovazione tecnologica piuttosto che sui mercati finanziari.

  • Quali progetti open source sono stati cruciali per Zeroda?

    Progetti come Redis e Go sono stati fondamentali per Zeroda, fornendo le basi per il loro stack tecnologico.

  • Come Zeroda gestisce i progetti open source?

    In Zeroda, si enfatizza la cultura della condivisione e del contributo, supportando i progetti interni ed esterni logisticamente e finanziariamente.

  • Come Zeroda affronta l'innovazione continua?

    Attraverso micro innovazioni e progetti di R&S costanti, Zeroda tenta costantemente nuove soluzioni per migliorare e innovare i suoi servizi.

  • Quale è la posizione di Kash sui contribuiti open source dall'India?

    Kash crede che il contributo dei programmatori indiani all'open source debba aumentare, nonostante l'India abbia il più grande numero di sviluppatori su GitHub.

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オートスクロール:
  • 00:00:17
    good afternoon
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    people is it a heavy
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    lunch we are we are here with the CTO of
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    the largest India's largest tech broking
  • 00:00:28
    firm I'm on come on we can we can be a
  • 00:00:30
    little more chaotic than
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    that okay first question how many of us
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    in this room
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    trade I just got to know that this man
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    sitting here who's responsible for all
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    of us trading is least interested in
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    finance okay that's just an Insider tip
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    but if you have to you know if we were
  • 00:00:54
    if we were all asked to think of like
  • 00:00:56
    imagine the stock market 10 years back
  • 00:00:58
    what is the image that comes to mind
  • 00:01:01
    anyone anyone can guess like when you
  • 00:01:02
    say the word stock market what's the
  • 00:01:05
    what are some of those images that come
  • 00:01:06
    to any of I mean you know any image that
  • 00:01:08
    comes to your
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    mind like a big room lot of chaos people
  • 00:01:14
    screaming on the phone I
  • 00:01:18
    mean like anxious men BPS going up and
  • 00:01:21
    down that was the image maybe 10 years
  • 00:01:23
    back but today when we think of stock
  • 00:01:26
    market and when we think of buying or
  • 00:01:28
    selling stocks what's the image that
  • 00:01:30
    comes to our
  • 00:01:32
    mind it's as simple as buying groceries
  • 00:01:34
    on blinket or shopping on Amazon right
  • 00:01:38
    and today we have the honor of sitting
  • 00:01:40
    in the same room as that one human being
  • 00:01:43
    or one individual who has Chang the
  • 00:01:46
    perception of stock market not just for
  • 00:01:49
    us in this room but for our entire
  • 00:01:51
    country and that is Dr kashad CTO of
  • 00:01:55
    zeroda huge round of applause please
  • 00:02:00
    but what's also observed is that this
  • 00:02:03
    person who's built the Tex stack for
  • 00:02:06
    zeroda which is today a 3.6 billion
  • 00:02:08
    dollar company is not a software
  • 00:02:10
    engineer by choice he's a hobby software
  • 00:02:14
    and he built this out of his hobby of
  • 00:02:16
    you know his love for technology or as a
  • 00:02:18
    hobby software is what he has built the
  • 00:02:20
    Tex act for zeroa he's of course a BC in
  • 00:02:24
    um computer science and a doctorate in
  • 00:02:26
    habian cell assemblies Ai and
  • 00:02:28
    computational linguist dists from middle
  • 00:02:30
    sex University in
  • 00:02:32
    London he's a self-proclaimed absurdist
  • 00:02:35
    and which I definitely want to know more
  • 00:02:37
    about it when we start the conversation
  • 00:02:39
    who believes in frugality he there were
  • 00:02:41
    a I think there were a tech team of 35
  • 00:02:44
    people when he built zeroda and they had
  • 00:02:46
    about thousand customers today they are
  • 00:02:48
    still a team of 35 people and they have
  • 00:02:51
    over 13 million customers
  • 00:02:55
    so so welcome Kash it's an honor and a
  • 00:02:58
    privilege to have you amidst us as as a
  • 00:03:00
    part of our guide by Tech talk and in
  • 00:03:02
    conversation with him is our very own
  • 00:03:04
    tinkerer um you know ano gopala Krishnan
  • 00:03:07
    who's joined us uh he's a VP of
  • 00:03:09
    engineering at this is for those benefit
  • 00:03:10
    of those joining us on Zoom uh join he's
  • 00:03:13
    a VP of engineering and based out of San
  • 00:03:15
    Matthew and um lover of Open Source
  • 00:03:19
    software and loves to Tinker with it and
  • 00:03:22
    um over to you both I think today's
  • 00:03:24
    conversation is all about discovering
  • 00:03:27
    tinkering and poking at technology to
  • 00:03:28
    find out what life is on the other side
  • 00:03:30
    of what we don't see as yet yeah over to
  • 00:03:33
    both of you well first of all thank you
  • 00:03:35
    all for showing up and uh also I'm more
  • 00:03:38
    I don't know about you guys but I
  • 00:03:39
    definitely am excited to talk to Kash
  • 00:03:41
    about all the things that he has done
  • 00:03:43
    but we'll start off with where uh lxmi
  • 00:03:46
    ended why do you call yourself an
  • 00:03:49
    absurdist that's my that's my philosophy
  • 00:03:53
    of T
  • 00:03:55
    service in really simple terms I don't
  • 00:03:58
    believe in Grand plans in life and my
  • 00:04:02
    personal experience all these years I my
  • 00:04:05
    life have been sh series of Lucky
  • 00:04:08
    coincidences like like a lot of hard
  • 00:04:11
    work but
  • 00:04:14
    never I think once you read enough
  • 00:04:16
    history you realize that history is
  • 00:04:17
    always shaped by the Chinese here there
  • 00:04:21
    we have a tendency to make big plans for
  • 00:04:23
    the next 10 years 20 years 50 years plan
  • 00:04:26
    out our entire life all the things is
  • 00:04:29
    Miss get to
  • 00:04:32
    fall that's
  • 00:04:33
    myosh oh that's a good one so let's hope
  • 00:04:36
    we don't have any fiveyear plans about
  • 00:04:38
    what we need to do in G um starting off
  • 00:04:42
    again um on zeroda success uh if you
  • 00:04:45
    don't mind at least for the
  • 00:04:46
    international audience or people who are
  • 00:04:48
    not in India um can you in your words
  • 00:04:51
    explain what zeroa does getting back to
  • 00:04:53
    the manual
  • 00:04:54
    stuff yeah Zera is a is a financial
  • 00:04:58
    technology company today we're a stock
  • 00:05:00
    broker we offer Financial products and
  • 00:05:03
    services trading and investment platform
  • 00:05:06
    that allow people to easy buy and sell
  • 00:05:09
    stocks participate in the stock market
  • 00:05:11
    we are this is our 14th year we started
  • 00:05:14
    building the technology team and Tech
  • 00:05:16
    products in
  • 00:05:17
    2013 the first three years of our
  • 00:05:20
    existence was as a
  • 00:05:22
    offering lowcost Investments we continue
  • 00:05:26
    to be lowcost investment provider but
  • 00:05:28
    today we are also a large final
  • 00:05:30
    technology and by activity and volume of
  • 00:05:34
    the number of people who log in and buy
  • 00:05:37
    and sell stocks on the Indian stock
  • 00:05:39
    markets every day we' be the largest
  • 00:05:41
    stock broker handling about 20% of all
  • 00:05:44
    retail investment and
  • 00:05:47
    trading how does this compare uh to all
  • 00:05:50
    the things that happen in the world how
  • 00:05:52
    those
  • 00:05:53
    stats I think uh I can't substantiate
  • 00:05:56
    this but I'm reasonably certain that we
  • 00:05:59
    be the largest retail grer in the world
  • 00:06:01
    in terms of activity uh on June 4th when
  • 00:06:05
    the election results came out markets
  • 00:06:07
    were very volatile we handled 35 Plus
  • 00:06:10
    million orders in a single day all
  • 00:06:11
    orders punched by individuals human
  • 00:06:14
    beings retail investors and Traders so
  • 00:06:17
    that must have been the largest for any
  • 00:06:18
    broker retail broker in the world
  • 00:06:20
    awesome this is this is great to hear
  • 00:06:23
    Round of Applause
  • 00:06:27
    fora the next question I have is u
  • 00:06:30
    you're a CTO you're a member of the
  • 00:06:32
    false United Foundation you're member of
  • 00:06:34
    the rain rain matter Foundation you're
  • 00:06:37
    matter you're a member of indc digital
  • 00:06:39
    AKA Foundation you're a member of the
  • 00:06:42
    sagata
  • 00:06:43
    foundation how do you manage
  • 00:06:46
    time I have nothing else to do in life
  • 00:06:48
    this is all I do 247 seven days a week
  • 00:06:52
    but I enjoy doing it so this is all I do
  • 00:06:54
    all
  • 00:06:56
    stuff well I think we all need to take
  • 00:06:59
    some notes from him after this session
  • 00:07:01
    um on how he enjoys every all of those
  • 00:07:05
    things now coming back to the topic and
  • 00:07:08
    point right we're all here to understand
  • 00:07:11
    how we can unlock uh the potential of
  • 00:07:14
    Open Source and drive Innovation across
  • 00:07:17
    our companies and the industry as a
  • 00:07:19
    whole can you share what is your
  • 00:07:23
    personal and professional view about
  • 00:07:25
    open
  • 00:07:27
    source my entire
  • 00:07:30
    mental Foundation of being an engineer
  • 00:07:32
    uh being a developer thinker is built on
  • 00:07:36
    the idea of Open Source when I first
  • 00:07:39
    started coding or accidentally
  • 00:07:41
    discovered the idea of coding in my
  • 00:07:42
    early teenage years I I was copy pting
  • 00:07:45
    code I found on the internet IOP pasting
  • 00:07:48
    them locally making tweaks running them
  • 00:07:51
    and whatever worked I was sharing it I
  • 00:07:53
    was pasting it back on the internet and
  • 00:07:56
    I didn't at that point when I was doing
  • 00:07:58
    this I didn't realize that this was a
  • 00:08:01
    fundamental tener of Open Source where
  • 00:08:03
    code is freely available to you to do
  • 00:08:05
    whatever you'd like uh do with it and
  • 00:08:08
    you share it back and after a couple of
  • 00:08:11
    years of doing this this is how I
  • 00:08:12
    learned I think every good developer is
  • 00:08:15
    self-made self taughts uh you learn
  • 00:08:18
    through trial and error I figured this
  • 00:08:20
    this entire thing was called open source
  • 00:08:22
    and there was this concept of legal
  • 00:08:24
    artifacts open source licenses Etc that
  • 00:08:26
    I realized a couple of years later but
  • 00:08:28
    it felt so natural to me how else would
  • 00:08:30
    I learn how else would anyone learn
  • 00:08:31
    right if you can't freely uh copy paste
  • 00:08:34
    knowledge tweak it and you know share it
  • 00:08:37
    back so that's that's been my entire
  • 00:08:39
    foundation and that was 24 25 years ago
  • 00:08:43
    and that's what I've been doing ever
  • 00:08:44
    since I've been working on Hobby open
  • 00:08:46
    source projects since forever I continue
  • 00:08:48
    to work on them today almost on a daily
  • 00:08:51
    basis uh when we I have no Affinity
  • 00:08:56
    towards Finance I've never punched a
  • 00:08:58
    trade in my life so this comes from the
  • 00:09:01
    city of zeroda which is the largest
  • 00:09:03
    stock broker broker firm in India so but
  • 00:09:07
    so when I met Nan Nan is the founder of
  • 00:09:10
    zeroda it was a completely coincidental
  • 00:09:13
    meeting that happened in
  • 00:09:15
    Bangalore one of those absurd events and
  • 00:09:20
    uh stock markets Finance was a green
  • 00:09:22
    field for me as an engineer I was really
  • 00:09:24
    excited by as a developer Tinker I was
  • 00:09:27
    really excited by the prospects of
  • 00:09:29
    building new stuff and every developer
  • 00:09:31
    wants to build new stuff you know it's
  • 00:09:33
    very exciting that's how I ended up in
  • 00:09:36
    finance but what has worked for us there
  • 00:09:38
    is uh we all have our DNA we all have
  • 00:09:43
    our lenses and people with the right
  • 00:09:46
    knowledge in different domains
  • 00:09:48
    collaborate enough to produce whatever
  • 00:09:50
    we produced that's why I've never traded
  • 00:09:52
    but it doesn't matter there are people
  • 00:09:54
    who understand trading in finance there
  • 00:09:56
    with whom let's say I collaborate so
  • 00:09:58
    when we started the tech in 2013 the
  • 00:10:00
    first thing I did was download python uh
  • 00:10:04
    start writing Python scripts to slowly
  • 00:10:06
    digitize the a from within and what else
  • 00:10:09
    I didn't what else could you even do
  • 00:10:11
    right if you want a programming language
  • 00:10:13
    you'll download a python or a go or PHP
  • 00:10:16
    these are all open source systems so 10
  • 00:10:18
    12 13 years ago the world had already
  • 00:10:21
    been consumed by open source today
  • 00:10:24
    there's no question of Open Source
  • 00:10:26
    versus non-op Source in that sense right
  • 00:10:28
    any piece of technology that anybody's
  • 00:10:29
    building you start by downloading high
  • 00:10:32
    quality open source components your
  • 00:10:34
    front-end Frameworks your back end
  • 00:10:35
    Frameworks your databases your
  • 00:10:36
    programming languages your runtime
  • 00:10:38
    environments everything is open sourced
  • 00:10:40
    so at zeroda that's what we've done
  • 00:10:42
    that's all I knew and I wouldn't do
  • 00:10:45
    anything otherwise so we've slowly
  • 00:10:47
    evolved uh building we've slowly evolved
  • 00:10:51
    from a broker trying to digitized to a
  • 00:10:54
    larger Financial technology company
  • 00:10:56
    that's built a lot of tech all on open
  • 00:10:58
    source compon always contributing back
  • 00:11:02
    to the uh best possible extent and F
  • 00:11:06
    United foundation for instance that we
  • 00:11:09
    uh started in 2010 in collaboration with
  • 00:11:12
    our other open source Enthusiast that
  • 00:11:15
    was a reflection of whatever we were
  • 00:11:17
    trying to do and we continue to have
  • 00:11:19
    those initiatives today so everybody in
  • 00:11:21
    our team is encouraged to uh Produce
  • 00:11:25
    open source software to contribute back
  • 00:11:26
    to constantly think of what we what comp
  • 00:11:29
    we can open source uh and to always use
  • 00:11:33
    the best highest quality open source
  • 00:11:35
    Technologies to build whatever we
  • 00:11:37
    building so just as a followup so first
  • 00:11:40
    things first what I understand from what
  • 00:11:42
    you're saying is that you started off
  • 00:11:44
    your foundation for Zera from with open
  • 00:11:46
    source it was never it was never a
  • 00:11:48
    change from commercial off the off the
  • 00:11:51
    sh software to open source you always
  • 00:11:53
    started from a base of Open Source is
  • 00:11:54
    that correct that is right but there's a
  • 00:11:57
    Nuance here uh when when Z was started
  • 00:12:00
    in 2010 there were vendor based
  • 00:12:03
    components that a Brer had to use
  • 00:12:07
    uh backend pieces in the home system
  • 00:12:10
    order management system like the back
  • 00:12:11
    office system there were off the shell
  • 00:12:14
    products there uh but when we started
  • 00:12:18
    our Tech Team but there was no Tech Team
  • 00:12:20
    it was just something when a broker
  • 00:12:21
    started out people would come install
  • 00:12:24
    these things for a broker and that's how
  • 00:12:25
    it works so when we started our de team
  • 00:12:27
    we started out using open source
  • 00:12:30
    Technologies building everything from
  • 00:12:32
    scratch all the new things that we want
  • 00:12:34
    to be built from scratch using F green
  • 00:12:36
    open
  • 00:12:37
    source and once we found a footing we
  • 00:12:41
    started replacing the vend Bas
  • 00:12:43
    conference also with force and that
  • 00:12:45
    can't happen overnight that's been a
  • 00:12:46
    multi-year long journey so yeah
  • 00:12:49
    absolutely started with force on day one
  • 00:12:51
    buil everything using for and also
  • 00:12:53
    migrated non force dependencies over a
  • 00:12:55
    period of time awesome how do you
  • 00:12:59
    differentiate what needs to be your IP
  • 00:13:02
    versus what needs to become open source
  • 00:13:05
    that the very interesting about uh the
  • 00:13:10
    financial organization India just that
  • 00:13:14
    uh there are Dums of encumbrances and
  • 00:13:17
    propriety licenses regulations that bind
  • 00:13:21
    who you or what you can do so our
  • 00:13:23
    trading we our investment platform
  • 00:13:25
    trading platform is called kite the way
  • 00:13:28
    it should be structured option that
  • 00:13:29
    should be shown on it the version number
  • 00:13:31
    that has to be displayed on the screen
  • 00:13:33
    all of that is regulator so for anyone
  • 00:13:35
    to even offer a trading platform you
  • 00:13:37
    need need to have a special license so
  • 00:13:41
    even if you were to dump the code for a
  • 00:13:42
    trading platform on it would be usful
  • 00:13:45
    because nobody can use it legally only a
  • 00:13:48
    broker with the right licensees can can
  • 00:13:50
    use it and that's just the trading
  • 00:13:51
    platform there are n number of other
  • 00:13:52
    proprietary licenses an organization has
  • 00:13:54
    to obtain from various exchanges
  • 00:13:57
    depositories
  • 00:13:59
    Etc to even run as a broker so you can't
  • 00:14:03
    in isolation even open source that
  • 00:14:06
    concept doesn't even gel in this
  • 00:14:07
    industry doesn't work uh in the US for
  • 00:14:11
    instance you can build an open source a
  • 00:14:13
    trading platform and you can pick up any
  • 00:14:15
    platform that you'd like and you can
  • 00:14:16
    connect it to any broker that you'd like
  • 00:14:18
    and you can trade that's not even legal
  • 00:14:20
    in India so we don't look at Zera as an
  • 00:14:24
    organization that can build an open
  • 00:14:25
    source platform because you legally
  • 00:14:27
    can't but we're just looking at open
  • 00:14:30
    sourcing whatever we can that is
  • 00:14:31
    reusable by others from within our
  • 00:14:34
    stack okay so now coming back to your
  • 00:14:36
    teenage years um sorry going back uh
  • 00:14:39
    that long those were cringe
  • 00:14:42
    years I'm sure also the learning years
  • 00:14:45
    right uh so what was the project that
  • 00:14:49
    inspired you or what was the scratch
  • 00:14:50
    that you were it that you were trying to
  • 00:14:52
    um you know satisfy with open source
  • 00:14:55
    your first four RS into open source what
  • 00:14:57
    was it that you were trying to do was it
  • 00:14:58
    gaming was it you know as a teenager I
  • 00:15:02
    assume I think uh so before I started
  • 00:15:05
    tinkering with I was always tinkering
  • 00:15:07
    that much I remember I was tinkering
  • 00:15:09
    with little mechanical gadgets rubber
  • 00:15:11
    band toys wooden toys paper craft stuff
  • 00:15:13
    I was always tinkering and in in school
  • 00:15:17
    we had an Electronics club where one
  • 00:15:20
    period in a week would be dedicated to
  • 00:15:23
    electronics soering stuff building
  • 00:15:24
    circuits Etc so my tinkering immediately
  • 00:15:27
    got uh transfused into electronic
  • 00:15:30
    stinker it felt naturally and when I got
  • 00:15:34
    my first personal computer and that in
  • 00:15:36
    itself was a big coincidence in the year
  • 00:15:39
    2000 to get a personal computer in a
  • 00:15:42
    tiny unknown City where I'm from uh that
  • 00:15:47
    in itself was an impossible highly
  • 00:15:49
    improbable event that happened for
  • 00:15:51
    reasons I still don't understand and
  • 00:15:53
    that's why I'm an absurdist that changed
  • 00:15:56
    my life so when I got access to a
  • 00:15:59
    personal computer my interest in
  • 00:16:02
    tinkering with electronics and little
  • 00:16:05
    circuit boards immediately you know it
  • 00:16:07
    it shifted to uh software and that was
  • 00:16:11
    natural so I don't remember it being as
  • 00:16:15
    a singular event where I suddenly got
  • 00:16:17
    interested in software I think was a
  • 00:16:19
    natural extension of whatever I was
  • 00:16:21
    trying to do was urge to do something
  • 00:16:23
    create something you know build that
  • 00:16:26
    little thing and software is Limitless I
  • 00:16:29
    mean it's intangible Hardware is limited
  • 00:16:31
    you need to solder you need to burn your
  • 00:16:33
    hands you need to buy stuff once you use
  • 00:16:35
    a board it's done so it just felt very
  • 00:16:38
    natural and my first big breakthrough
  • 00:16:40
    came through when I managed to publish
  • 00:16:44
    my first published my first big open
  • 00:16:46
    source project it was a blogging
  • 00:16:47
    platform came out in 2002 it's called be
  • 00:16:50
    machine uh GP licensed it was and that
  • 00:16:54
    became big it had and this was the early
  • 00:16:57
    days of blogging on the internet there
  • 00:16:59
    was a thing called blogosphere blog spot
  • 00:17:01
    was there this was pre- WordPress there
  • 00:17:03
    was a wordpress's precursor was called
  • 00:17:06
    B2
  • 00:17:07
    Evolution and then B Machine came out I
  • 00:17:11
    must have been 15 years old and then it
  • 00:17:14
    found a large user base it found a
  • 00:17:15
    community it found contributions before
  • 00:17:17
    git there was a forum there were tons of
  • 00:17:19
    people there were hundreds of thousands
  • 00:17:21
    of blogs that ran on the internet using
  • 00:17:23
    this piece of software and I was working
  • 00:17:25
    on it tinkering with it building it
  • 00:17:28
    every single day after coming back from
  • 00:17:29
    school sitting in my little bedroom in
  • 00:17:31
    you know in my home and that just that
  • 00:17:35
    joy and
  • 00:17:36
    satisfaction was intense immense I never
  • 00:17:39
    looked back awesome thanks to B Machine
  • 00:17:43
    and I hope we have zeroda now uh but
  • 00:17:47
    going back to the drive for Innovation
  • 00:17:50
    within Enterprises right how do you
  • 00:17:53
    think in your experience all across how
  • 00:17:56
    can we unlock that um
  • 00:17:59
    uh that drive within Enterprises to
  • 00:18:02
    cater to open source not just by using
  • 00:18:05
    them but also contributing back what are
  • 00:18:07
    the things that youve used within zeroda
  • 00:18:09
    where you've encouraged or gotten your
  • 00:18:10
    people encouraged to contribute back to
  • 00:18:13
    open source and how how is it that we
  • 00:18:15
    could emulate that in other
  • 00:18:17
    organizations I'll be blunt you need
  • 00:18:20
    management buying it's a culture pretty
  • 00:18:23
    sure most of the products that you build
  • 00:18:24
    here you they all use open source
  • 00:18:26
    components Frameworks languages Etc all
  • 00:18:29
    open source uh I think in organizations
  • 00:18:32
    small and big the management has to
  • 00:18:35
    create room for the culture of
  • 00:18:37
    contribution and sharing to evolve it
  • 00:18:40
    has to you need constant encouragement
  • 00:18:42
    and over a period of time it becomes a
  • 00:18:43
    way of thinking way of doing so Zera
  • 00:18:46
    from day one because we are using open
  • 00:18:47
    source Technologies to build stuff and
  • 00:18:50
    I'm an open source hacker myself it was
  • 00:18:52
    a no brainer to find people who had such
  • 00:18:54
    an inclination to join the team so the
  • 00:18:57
    culture permeates and people are
  • 00:18:59
    constantly encouraged to build and give
  • 00:19:02
    out stuff now it's not an isolation from
  • 00:19:05
    work where you say you do your Z work
  • 00:19:07
    then you do other open source work and
  • 00:19:09
    push it out there it doesn't work that
  • 00:19:11
    way it's a way of thinking in any large
  • 00:19:13
    complex system you'll build so many
  • 00:19:15
    compliments uh you look at from a
  • 00:19:17
    certain lens you realize that you will
  • 00:19:20
    realize that oh other people out there
  • 00:19:22
    will also have this issue maybe I can
  • 00:19:24
    make this a little generic and push it
  • 00:19:26
    out there and that needs to be a culture
  • 00:19:29
    that way of thinking has to be
  • 00:19:31
    encouraged and instilled by technical
  • 00:19:33
    leadership and management and over a
  • 00:19:35
    period of time it just becomes culture
  • 00:19:37
    everybody does it on their own nobody
  • 00:19:38
    comes to you saying oh I have this idea
  • 00:19:40
    people just open source absolutely so it
  • 00:19:42
    has to become culture for the and it has
  • 00:19:44
    to perate through uh but if we were to
  • 00:19:47
    talk about management who are largely
  • 00:19:49
    non-technical in nature
  • 00:19:51
    tyal well that was a strong word but uh
  • 00:19:55
    how can we help those uh people in man
  • 00:19:58
    at that level to understand or let's
  • 00:20:01
    assume that they have uh the blessings
  • 00:20:04
    they given the blessings what are the
  • 00:20:05
    some of things that you followed or you
  • 00:20:07
    could suggest to companies as programs
  • 00:20:10
    that you might want to do to encourage
  • 00:20:13
    open source other than you know
  • 00:20:15
    encouraging people is not a one-time
  • 00:20:17
    thing it has to be constant and then you
  • 00:20:19
    need to have programs of some sort that
  • 00:20:20
    will sort of uh you know make it easy
  • 00:20:23
    and permeate into the culture what are
  • 00:20:25
    some of the things that you might you
  • 00:20:26
    might suggest to such non-technical man
  • 00:20:29
    I think to uh to make non-technical
  • 00:20:33
    management understand the value of false
  • 00:20:36
    you simply have to show evidence your
  • 00:20:38
    product only exists because You' picked
  • 00:20:40
    up an open source language to write the
  • 00:20:42
    product in product only exists because
  • 00:20:44
    you picked up an open source database
  • 00:20:46
    your mobile app only exists because you
  • 00:20:48
    have picked up an open source uh
  • 00:20:49
    framework otherwise the product couldn't
  • 00:20:51
    even exist so it's very easy to list
  • 00:20:54
    that down and show evidence and maybe
  • 00:20:56
    even put dollar values to it saying we
  • 00:20:59
    couldn't even have built this product if
  • 00:21:00
    it wasn't for all these open source
  • 00:21:01
    components for which we paid nothing so
  • 00:21:04
    let's pay something back it could be
  • 00:21:06
    Financial it could be code contribution
  • 00:21:08
    so this can be Quantified as a financial
  • 00:21:11
    report even if it comes to that just
  • 00:21:14
    show people what is being used how much
  • 00:21:17
    you paid for it which is zero for most
  • 00:21:19
    99.99% of F
  • 00:21:22
    and you can also institutionalize some
  • 00:21:26
    of this and you were just telling about
  • 00:21:28
    the oso idea that you have that's a
  • 00:21:30
    great way of doing it and it'll have
  • 00:21:32
    some open source program office uh it'll
  • 00:21:35
    have some programs and activities that
  • 00:21:38
    give structure to this uh you could have
  • 00:21:41
    a contribution Drive uh to contribute to
  • 00:21:44
    valuable projects projects that you
  • 00:21:46
    derive Great Value from you can do
  • 00:21:48
    Financial contributions and let the team
  • 00:21:51
    pick and choose ultimately developers
  • 00:21:53
    who work with these Technologies know
  • 00:21:54
    best they know how valuable this tiny
  • 00:21:56
    piece of library is to the stack so we
  • 00:22:00
    have a system where people who use
  • 00:22:02
    various libraries Etc in the tech team
  • 00:22:04
    they can just say that this thing is
  • 00:22:06
    really really valuable uh let's donate
  • 00:22:08
    to it and uh we have a FSE fund
  • 00:22:11
    internally we're going to expand it and
  • 00:22:13
    announce it soon next month really and
  • 00:22:16
    uh so a developer has the ability to
  • 00:22:19
    voice their support for a piece of
  • 00:22:20
    technology open source technology that
  • 00:22:22
    they really like can use and we the AUG
  • 00:22:25
    donate money to it because we deriving
  • 00:22:27
    value from it so so that also becomes
  • 00:22:30
    that gives agency to the developers who
  • 00:22:31
    are really working on these Technologies
  • 00:22:34
    firsthand and that instills the culture
  • 00:22:37
    of giving back giving back can be
  • 00:22:38
    Financial it could be fixes it could be
  • 00:22:40
    new projects themselves and just simply
  • 00:22:43
    getting together and thinking sitting
  • 00:22:45
    brainstorming and deciding what could be
  • 00:22:47
    a meaningful open- source project that
  • 00:22:49
    you could carve out of the work you're
  • 00:22:50
    doing right now in itself is a
  • 00:22:52
    collective exercise like I said over a
  • 00:22:54
    period of time it just becomes culture
  • 00:22:56
    nobody has to think of it absolutely
  • 00:22:59
    thank you very much so big round of
  • 00:23:01
    applause for zeroda announcing funds for
  • 00:23:03
    open source it's not we have to remember
  • 00:23:06
    majority of these people are working off
  • 00:23:08
    of their you know regular office hours
  • 00:23:11
    and spending times in the evenings there
  • 00:23:13
    are some hugely used open source
  • 00:23:15
    projects be it lock forj curl Etc with
  • 00:23:19
    very few uh contributors who spend a lot
  • 00:23:22
    of their personal time I'm not talking
  • 00:23:24
    about L of stols or other people but
  • 00:23:26
    just talking about even regular projects
  • 00:23:28
    so it's great that zeroda is uh find you
  • 00:23:32
    know instituting a fund U that will help
  • 00:23:35
    uh these open source projects you know
  • 00:23:36
    be more viable because you mentioned C
  • 00:23:39
    we actually sent money to C just
  • 00:23:41
    appreciating how amazing C is absolutely
  • 00:23:43
    it is amazing the best softwares
  • 00:23:46
    ever and I want to uh you know touch a
  • 00:23:49
    little bit on the opo part which is
  • 00:23:51
    about open source project management of
  • 00:23:53
    program man office uh which is about how
  • 00:23:55
    do we Institute within organizations uh
  • 00:23:59
    institu institutionalized process around
  • 00:24:03
    what and governance around open source
  • 00:24:05
    right it's about for different companies
  • 00:24:08
    the focus could be different some could
  • 00:24:10
    be about retaining talent for others it
  • 00:24:12
    could be about you know the stack is
  • 00:24:14
    important to us so we want to have a say
  • 00:24:16
    in it and third it's security all of
  • 00:24:20
    these combined could become a governing
  • 00:24:22
    Factor within osbo that would help uh
  • 00:24:26
    bring programs um as well as you know
  • 00:24:29
    Tech talks and all of the other ways
  • 00:24:31
    that you can um encourage open- Source
  • 00:24:34
    uh Drive within your
  • 00:24:37
    organization do you have an opo at
  • 00:24:40
    zeroda I think we are an
  • 00:24:43
    ospo that's you don't have a thing
  • 00:24:45
    called o because you just
  • 00:24:48
    started that's
  • 00:24:53
    great so as a CTO within your
  • 00:24:56
    organization Zara um Are there specific
  • 00:24:59
    open source projects that have been like
  • 00:25:01
    game changers for you or you know almost
  • 00:25:03
    everything you use all of them but is
  • 00:25:05
    there any one project that you might
  • 00:25:07
    think is has been absolutely critical
  • 00:25:11
    for zeroda from the open source World
  • 00:25:14
    there are multiple but I always cite
  • 00:25:16
    redis redis as an example redis has had
  • 00:25:20
    a very unfortunate turn of events in the
  • 00:25:22
    recent months uh a heavily VC backed a
  • 00:25:25
    takes over its maintenance suddenly it's
  • 00:25:27
    no longer open source it's been fked but
  • 00:25:29
    that's the beauty of Open Source the
  • 00:25:31
    community will folk it and maintain it
  • 00:25:33
    red is has been
  • 00:25:34
    instrumental I think around
  • 00:25:37
    20134 I was tinkering with go which was
  • 00:25:40
    a nent experimental programming language
  • 00:25:44
    uh from Google and I was building little
  • 00:25:47
    projects in it and for this one
  • 00:25:49
    particular use case after evaluating a
  • 00:25:51
    bunch of other languages and Frameworks
  • 00:25:53
    I decided to give goo a shot at zeroa
  • 00:25:55
    for building one component and that
  • 00:25:57
    worked out really well so we built
  • 00:25:59
    another one and another one and today I
  • 00:26:02
    think bulk of a stack is go so go has
  • 00:26:05
    been absolutely instrumental to us uh
  • 00:26:10
    when we hire a let's say we rarely hire
  • 00:26:12
    but when we hire a developer and uh
  • 00:26:15
    let's say they're a python developer
  • 00:26:16
    they're able to learn go and start
  • 00:26:19
    contributing a little bit within a
  • 00:26:21
    couple of weeks in three four months
  • 00:26:23
    they're writing fluent proficient go
  • 00:26:25
    code contributing to critical systems
  • 00:26:27
    that's the Simplicity of the language so
  • 00:26:31
    developer productivity the ability to
  • 00:26:33
    collaborate Etc and go is quite amazing
  • 00:26:37
    and like I said red is has been Rock
  • 00:26:39
    Solid it just runs forever I mean
  • 00:26:41
    nothing ever breaks and absolutely
  • 00:26:44
    stunning piece of software it is there
  • 00:26:46
    are several but these these two
  • 00:26:49
    awesome thank you so much I know we are
  • 00:26:51
    also tinkering around with go uh in
  • 00:26:53
    guidewire there's some projects out
  • 00:26:55
    there and we in in fact having a tech
  • 00:26:58
    talk next week this is a Shameless
  • 00:26:59
    plugin for the god folks uh this 24th we
  • 00:27:03
    have a tech talk on go
  • 00:27:06
    um so now you talked about hiring U what
  • 00:27:11
    are the key activists you look for in an
  • 00:27:13
    engineer uh when you hire folks into
  • 00:27:17
    Zera skills for sure but more than
  • 00:27:21
    skills uh the general attitude and
  • 00:27:24
    expectations uh so we are a very small
  • 00:27:26
    team and we started the Tech Team in
  • 00:27:28
    2013 it was it was just me and then we
  • 00:27:33
    had another hacker a first engineer and
  • 00:27:36
    slowly over 11 plus years we've built a
  • 00:27:39
    small team of very closely knit people
  • 00:27:43
    and everybody's a full stack there so
  • 00:27:47
    the ability to learn is I value that uh
  • 00:27:51
    more than their current set of skills
  • 00:27:54
    somebody doesn't know a certain language
  • 00:27:55
    but if they have that Knack of learning
  • 00:27:58
    learning meta understanding they'll pick
  • 00:27:59
    up that language in 2 three months
  • 00:28:01
    that's okay so we don't really look for
  • 00:28:03
    very specific skill sets in a certain
  • 00:28:06
    language or framework generally that
  • 00:28:08
    that's rare and expectation and general
  • 00:28:13
    attitude in life is something that is
  • 00:28:16
    weighed heavily up heavily on and uh you
  • 00:28:19
    can figure those out in a few casual
  • 00:28:21
    conversation so we don't really want
  • 00:28:25
    Rockstar 10x ninja engineers in our team
  • 00:28:29
    other words you don't want brilliant
  • 00:28:31
    jerks we don't want that sort of an
  • 00:28:33
    archetype some people are very skilled
  • 00:28:36
    some people may not really be that
  • 00:28:38
    skilled I mean that's natural but we
  • 00:28:41
    want everybody to collaborate with
  • 00:28:42
    everybody else and help everybody else
  • 00:28:45
    so that whole idea of a superstar
  • 00:28:49
    developer becoming a silo in themselves
  • 00:28:51
    is not something that we want so we have
  • 00:28:54
    a small team of developers who all
  • 00:28:56
    collaborate with each other irrespective
  • 00:28:58
    of how skilled they are and expectations
  • 00:29:03
    also I mean every person that I've hired
  • 00:29:06
    I've told them that 80 90% of the work
  • 00:29:09
    that we're going to do here is super
  • 00:29:10
    boring but that is true in any company
  • 00:29:13
    anywhere in the world there is
  • 00:29:14
    misconception that at Google you get to
  • 00:29:17
    work on Cutting Edge Innovation every
  • 00:29:19
    single day that's not true for any or in
  • 00:29:21
    the world yeah 80% of it is really
  • 00:29:23
    boring maintenance stuff 20% would be
  • 00:29:26
    those bouts of excitement and Innovation
  • 00:29:29
    engineering so I set the expectations
  • 00:29:31
    very very clearly and
  • 00:29:34
    that these are the risk that you deal
  • 00:29:36
    with we are in a heavily regulated
  • 00:29:38
    industry so the people who are okay with
  • 00:29:40
    all of that and not some world changing
  • 00:29:42
    whatever those are the kind of people
  • 00:29:44
    who have come on board and they've all
  • 00:29:46
    stuck around because they're there for
  • 00:29:48
    the right reasons and right expectations
  • 00:29:50
    so that's how we hire typically okay
  • 00:29:53
    that's awesome what do you guys do for
  • 00:29:56
    fun lots of things we play Counter
  • 00:29:59
    Strike every
  • 00:30:00
    day we still playing I think counter we
  • 00:30:03
    play condition Z 1.6 I think it's 25
  • 00:30:06
    years old low poly you know MSP level
  • 00:30:10
    Graphics but it's so much fun we still
  • 00:30:11
    play it every single day we're very
  • 00:30:13
    competitive about it that's
  • 00:30:16
    yeah all kinds of things with this
  • 00:30:18
    specific and I am the best at
  • 00:30:22
    CS I I I can
  • 00:30:24
    imagine how about hackathons do you guys
  • 00:30:27
    do anything of that sort you know
  • 00:30:29
    sometimes hackathons can
  • 00:30:31
    help uh if you look at a way to mutate
  • 00:30:34
    your thinking right otherwise you going
  • 00:30:36
    in one strand all the time and this
  • 00:30:38
    helps you mute it what's your idea and
  • 00:30:41
    thought about hackathons and running
  • 00:30:42
    them on a regular basis what do you do
  • 00:30:45
    them in the first place we don't we
  • 00:30:47
    don't have structured hackathon but we
  • 00:30:49
    have lots of R&D projects and that R&D
  • 00:30:53
    run or Sprint to replace something or
  • 00:30:56
    try something out in itself becomes kind
  • 00:30:58
    of like a hackathon thing for a small
  • 00:31:01
    number of people it may run for a couple
  • 00:31:03
    of days few weeks or even months so
  • 00:31:05
    there are constant we constantly have a
  • 00:31:07
    large number of small little R&D
  • 00:31:09
    projects running evaluating a whole new
  • 00:31:11
    way of doing something and every team
  • 00:31:15
    teams are tiny two to three four people
  • 00:31:18
    and these projects constantly have
  • 00:31:21
    overlaps between people from teams so no
  • 00:31:24
    structured hackathons but actual stuff
  • 00:31:28
    that has to be built for the or which is
  • 00:31:30
    a part of our uh ideas of improvement or
  • 00:31:33
    future plans or whatever they become
  • 00:31:36
    small little hackathon like R&D projects
  • 00:31:39
    and either they fail or they succeed and
  • 00:31:41
    become a part of the uh mainstream
  • 00:31:44
    that's how we do it it's it's become
  • 00:31:45
    cultural we don't even think of it like
  • 00:31:48
    a hackathon it's just something we do so
  • 00:31:50
    something like an innovation Sprint that
  • 00:31:51
    you do once in a while or is it like no
  • 00:31:53
    it's fluid it happens on a daily basis
  • 00:31:55
    it's a part of all projects it's a part
  • 00:31:57
    of a workflow
  • 00:31:58
    and when you approach any of these
  • 00:31:59
    projects um is it with the intent that
  • 00:32:02
    uh you ask yourself is this open
  • 00:32:04
    sourceable is this idea open sourceable
  • 00:32:06
    or you focus first on solving the
  • 00:32:09
    problem and then looking it after if
  • 00:32:11
    it's open
  • 00:32:12
    sourceable I think problem first if you
  • 00:32:15
    go with the is it open sourceable angle
  • 00:32:18
    first before the problem is well
  • 00:32:20
    understood I don't think it will work
  • 00:32:22
    either way uh we understand the problem
  • 00:32:25
    first we arrive at a certain solution
  • 00:32:27
    after our then we realize oh this is
  • 00:32:30
    generic and it can be open sourced or it
  • 00:32:32
    can't be so it's like that and to give
  • 00:32:35
    you an example of an R&D project let's
  • 00:32:37
    say we have a large database with
  • 00:32:39
    humongous amounts of data some process
  • 00:32:41
    is taking an hour it used to take 30
  • 00:32:44
    minutes 2 years ago now it's taking an
  • 00:32:45
    hour and that is a signal for us to
  • 00:32:50
    relook at it and it's possible to keep
  • 00:32:52
    it at 1 hour AF it's affordable for us
  • 00:32:55
    to do it at 2 hours 3 hours 4 hours and
  • 00:32:57
    6 or 7 years down the line it might end
  • 00:32:59
    up being uh 8 hours but unmanageable
  • 00:33:03
    amounts of data so we always look for
  • 00:33:05
    those stress points within the system
  • 00:33:08
    and then suddenly there's a small little
  • 00:33:09
    experiment you know what there's this
  • 00:33:11
    new database called click house that
  • 00:33:13
    we've been reading about why don't we do
  • 00:33:15
    a PO in it and somebody will pick that
  • 00:33:17
    up as a project do a POC spend days
  • 00:33:19
    weeks or months on it and the outcome
  • 00:33:21
    will determine the future of this
  • 00:33:23
    project so every single large technical
  • 00:33:25
    change in Innovation we've done has come
  • 00:33:27
    like this so today click house is a
  • 00:33:29
    great example we've inducted click house
  • 00:33:32
    heavily into our stack we' benefited
  • 00:33:33
    from it immensely and it started out as
  • 00:33:36
    a experiment as an experiment so what
  • 00:33:38
    I'm hearing is that micro innovations
  • 00:33:40
    that happen every time is is a is a way
  • 00:33:43
    of life at zero that is how everything
  • 00:33:45
    works at zero and micro can become Mega
  • 00:33:48
    in no time in no time and how how does
  • 00:33:51
    this a start is it usually something
  • 00:33:54
    that is bottom up in terms of uh people
  • 00:33:58
    realizing the time or is it more like
  • 00:33:59
    from your level down identifying you
  • 00:34:03
    know at a higher level things are
  • 00:34:04
    untenable at this the space or how how
  • 00:34:07
    does innovation happen it's mostly from
  • 00:34:10
    the ground up uh we don't really have a
  • 00:34:14
    hierarchy we don't have any hierarchy in
  • 00:34:16
    the tech team so everybody's kind of
  • 00:34:17
    clued on
  • 00:34:19
    everything everything just enough and
  • 00:34:22
    people who own certain products and
  • 00:34:24
    projects it's again it's become a part
  • 00:34:26
    of our culture to question when
  • 00:34:28
    something slows down look for those
  • 00:34:30
    signals something's taking one hour but
  • 00:34:32
    it ideally shouldn't you know that
  • 00:34:33
    nagging feeling uh so somebody just
  • 00:34:36
    brings that up like this could be better
  • 00:34:38
    a bunch of us sit together and look at
  • 00:34:40
    possible Pathways and somebody picks up
  • 00:34:43
    the picks it up as a project and does it
  • 00:34:46
    feel so the count the counter that I
  • 00:34:48
    have seen my experience is people tend
  • 00:34:50
    to get into a stockh home syndrome this
  • 00:34:52
    is how it's worked all the while so this
  • 00:34:55
    is probably the way it should go how do
  • 00:34:57
    you tackle that so you asked us you said
  • 00:35:00
    this great thing about question
  • 00:35:01
    everything right and that again is a
  • 00:35:04
    cultural aspect that has to I think
  • 00:35:06
    permeate from the top question
  • 00:35:08
    everything even and allow the bottom to
  • 00:35:11
    question uh upward too absolutely how do
  • 00:35:14
    you how do you encourage this on a
  • 00:35:16
    regular basis is it by I mean probably
  • 00:35:18
    by uh demonstrating it yourself or what
  • 00:35:21
    other methods do you follow is there any
  • 00:35:24
    management method method to this or is
  • 00:35:25
    it you know as as you said regarding
  • 00:35:29
    absurdus being an absur is just do it I
  • 00:35:33
    I think it's very difficult to create a
  • 00:35:35
    program around this think then it'll end
  • 00:35:37
    up being something like agile where it
  • 00:35:39
    backfires and doesn't work uh as
  • 00:35:42
    originally intented you have to set
  • 00:35:45
    examples you have to show success
  • 00:35:47
    stories obviously and that would have
  • 00:35:48
    been for when we were a young old I do
  • 00:35:51
    this myself uh and I've also learned
  • 00:35:54
    quite a bit over the years and people
  • 00:35:55
    around me people who sit with me and
  • 00:35:57
    work work with they also learn by
  • 00:35:59
    example and at some point it becomes a
  • 00:36:02
    muscle now if you question absolutely
  • 00:36:04
    everything nothing gets done so it's a
  • 00:36:07
    trade-off this isn't right it's okay
  • 00:36:09
    it's acceptable for it to continue like
  • 00:36:11
    this for a while and this isn't right
  • 00:36:13
    but this this can't go along you know
  • 00:36:15
    that sense it becomes a muscle in the
  • 00:36:18
    collective conscious of the team and it
  • 00:36:20
    starts emerging but yes absolutely this
  • 00:36:22
    has to be set from the top just like all
  • 00:36:25
    culture is set from the early days until
  • 00:36:27
    becomes a muscle in the
  • 00:36:29
    team so I'm assuming that zeroda has
  • 00:36:32
    some open- Source projects that that are
  • 00:36:35
    heavily used by other organizations as
  • 00:36:37
    well yeah so what's your experience
  • 00:36:40
    managing those projects is it more like
  • 00:36:42
    uh hurting cats or conducting a
  • 00:36:45
    symphony it's a bit of both uh some
  • 00:36:49
    projects have a lot of users and no
  • 00:36:52
    issues such projects are G nobody bugs
  • 00:36:54
    you uh some projects will have last
  • 00:36:57
    number of users and therefore large
  • 00:36:59
    number of questions large number of
  • 00:37:01
    complaints or large number of questions
  • 00:37:03
    just questions not even complaints
  • 00:37:05
    people don't nobody wants to read the
  • 00:37:06
    manual everybody will come post an issue
  • 00:37:08
    saying tell me or teach me how to use
  • 00:37:10
    this or this so it's a bit of both and
  • 00:37:13
    that load is shared between the
  • 00:37:15
    principal project maintenance of those
  • 00:37:17
    respective projects or in general if
  • 00:37:19
    it's a shared project somebody or the
  • 00:37:21
    other from the team will go respond Etc
  • 00:37:23
    so their experience will I think in the
  • 00:37:25
    open source World it'll always be mixed
  • 00:37:28
    it will depend on the kind of audience
  • 00:37:30
    you have if you have a Dev tool
  • 00:37:32
    something that's in that developers
  • 00:37:34
    it'll have a different kind of respons
  • 00:37:35
    if you have something that is aimed at
  • 00:37:37
    non-technical people of projects that'll
  • 00:37:39
    have a whole different kind of uh
  • 00:37:41
    Dynamic about it so it's a mix of
  • 00:37:44
    everything
  • 00:37:47
    mix okay so now um for most of people
  • 00:37:52
    here I I can say at least a tech folks
  • 00:37:55
    is that everybody's use open source
  • 00:37:58
    almost every engineer in here and on
  • 00:38:01
    Zoom I'm sure has used open source but
  • 00:38:05
    then the challenge comes to how do you
  • 00:38:06
    contribute open source um I've obviously
  • 00:38:10
    heard a lot of my share of you know uh
  • 00:38:13
    reasons but what are some of the reasons
  • 00:38:14
    that you thought were sort of
  • 00:38:16
    interesting on why people don't
  • 00:38:19
    contribute back into the open source
  • 00:38:21
    World there are there are many reasons
  • 00:38:24
    for me personally it's a matter of value
  • 00:38:26
    and principles if you're taking
  • 00:38:28
    something and using it heavily for free
  • 00:38:30
    if you're deriving value it's only
  • 00:38:33
    ethical and moral that you give back I'm
  • 00:38:35
    a hacker I enjoy giving back that's
  • 00:38:37
    another uh contributing that's another
  • 00:38:41
    another thing but generally uh the
  • 00:38:44
    apprehension stems from Mostly
  • 00:38:46
    misunderstandings uh how do you
  • 00:38:48
    contribute to a large project will your
  • 00:38:51
    contribution match up to the Quality
  • 00:38:53
    expected by the project will it be
  • 00:38:57
    will there be a rebuke all of these
  • 00:38:59
    feelings are very natural and a lot of
  • 00:39:02
    Open Source projects have douchebag
  • 00:39:04
    maintainers and you sent I named one in
  • 00:39:08
    this so these are all valid reasons and
  • 00:39:12
    you build something but it's too tiny
  • 00:39:14
    why should I do this there are so many
  • 00:39:15
    people doing bigger things why should I
  • 00:39:16
    even contribute
  • 00:39:18
    like I one of the JavaScript library
  • 00:39:22
    that I recently open sourced was 500
  • 00:39:24
    lines of 500 bytes some 100 lines of
  • 00:39:26
    coal really tiny it was a cool hack and
  • 00:39:30
    I was happy open sourcing it I'm pretty
  • 00:39:32
    sure a bunch of people use it for
  • 00:39:33
    various things now so whether something
  • 00:39:36
    is useful to others or not uh I think
  • 00:39:39
    it's very hard to predict even the most
  • 00:39:41
    Niche obscure tiny thing that you end up
  • 00:39:43
    building may end up being useful to a
  • 00:39:46
    lot of other people and you can't
  • 00:39:48
    predict that future or its trajectory so
  • 00:39:51
    you have to put it out there so you have
  • 00:39:53
    to lose some of your inhibition of
  • 00:39:55
    opening up and and even the tiniest
  • 00:39:59
    contribution even documentation
  • 00:40:01
    contribution in fact I would love
  • 00:40:02
    documentation contribution developers
  • 00:40:04
    hate writing documentation even those
  • 00:40:06
    are extremely useful I mean I want
  • 00:40:09
    documentation contribution more than
  • 00:40:10
    code contribution because reviewing code
  • 00:40:13
    contribute contribs are a huge mental
  • 00:40:16
    Rin so you should just push that tiny
  • 00:40:20
    little thing out and some of my biggest
  • 00:40:22
    projects have started out as tiny little
  • 00:40:24
    projects that have just changed and
  • 00:40:26
    that's true for every single open source
  • 00:40:28
    developer in the world and just to add
  • 00:40:30
    for everyone in here GitHub has labels
  • 00:40:33
    for uh many of these issues that are
  • 00:40:36
    there in the open source world you could
  • 00:40:37
    search for good first contribution label
  • 00:40:40
    or things like that where you can easily
  • 00:40:42
    contribute back U I've heard reasons
  • 00:40:45
    where people said um you
  • 00:40:48
    know the open source maintainance could
  • 00:40:50
    be judgmental that's one like he said
  • 00:40:53
    any like he said but that shouldn't stop
  • 00:40:56
    you from you know uh having a having
  • 00:40:58
    that conversation in fact I feel that
  • 00:41:01
    the more conversations you have with
  • 00:41:03
    open source and diverse open source not
  • 00:41:04
    just focus on one project is you improve
  • 00:41:07
    your own uh developer Capital you
  • 00:41:10
    improve your own ideas and thoughts that
  • 00:41:13
    uh you know that that could help you
  • 00:41:14
    become a better developer um and that
  • 00:41:17
    you should you should never look at it
  • 00:41:18
    as oh it's about you know somebody
  • 00:41:21
    judging me for the contribution uh I've
  • 00:41:24
    made or the comment I've put in it's
  • 00:41:27
    it's okay to get rejected your PR is
  • 00:41:28
    rejected it's fine you can always raise
  • 00:41:30
    a new one based on the feedback they've
  • 00:41:32
    given so you're always improving
  • 00:41:34
    yourself right think of yourself as a
  • 00:41:38
    you know versioning system that is
  • 00:41:40
    incrementing your patch version one
  • 00:41:42
    after the other I I'd like to site an
  • 00:41:44
    example here uh so it doesn't have to be
  • 00:41:46
    a contribution this is not the example
  • 00:41:48
    that comes next there not it's not
  • 00:41:51
    really about contributing to large
  • 00:41:52
    projects you can
  • 00:41:54
    always open source your little hacks and
  • 00:41:57
    most open- Source projects including
  • 00:41:59
    Linux itself has been the result of
  • 00:42:01
    somebody's frustration you get so pissed
  • 00:42:03
    off with this problem nothing really
  • 00:42:04
    works for you you do that Library you do
  • 00:42:07
    that little tool you write that bad
  • 00:42:08
    script because you're so pissed off so
  • 00:42:11
    the origin story of some of the biggest
  • 00:42:14
    if not the most if not most Open Source
  • 00:42:16
    Products out there would be pist off
  • 00:42:18
    people and my example is from 2010 when
  • 00:42:21
    I was in the University uh I'm a I'm a
  • 00:42:24
    malum speaker that's my native language
  • 00:42:26
    and I was
  • 00:42:27
    really pissed off at the lack of a
  • 00:42:29
    quality mum dictionary online and there
  • 00:42:32
    were a few ones Su ridden spammy
  • 00:42:35
    horrible websites You' search for a word
  • 00:42:37
    it take 15 seconds for it to load and
  • 00:42:40
    this would drive me nuts for years so in
  • 00:42:43
    2010 I got so pissed off that I sat down
  • 00:42:45
    and I think took an English dictionary
  • 00:42:47
    and typed out some 5,000 English to
  • 00:42:49
    marum words and I was in Rage in pure
  • 00:42:52
    rage then I made a little web app around
  • 00:42:55
    it and I published
  • 00:42:58
    then uh for myself because I was so
  • 00:43:00
    pissed off then I scraped together a
  • 00:43:03
    bunch of more words and more words and
  • 00:43:06
    people added a little contribution form
  • 00:43:08
    people started contributing to it and
  • 00:43:10
    this was an open source project and the
  • 00:43:11
    data was also open data and the
  • 00:43:15
    Project's been running for it's called
  • 00:43:16
    olum the project has been running for 14
  • 00:43:19
    years now and today it's used by 2 and a
  • 00:43:23
    half million malayalis every month so
  • 00:43:26
    awesome
  • 00:43:29
    it's an open source open data project uh
  • 00:43:31
    it's out there and over the last many
  • 00:43:34
    years I've greatly enjoyed working in it
  • 00:43:37
    and that's Al also been spun off to a
  • 00:43:40
    Canada dictionary called aler which is
  • 00:43:41
    also now gaining lot of usage but I
  • 00:43:44
    couldn't have foreseen where this would
  • 00:43:46
    go but when I look at this project and I
  • 00:43:49
    think of the value it brings to so many
  • 00:43:52
    people right such a simple thing a
  • 00:43:54
    dictionary that is I mean that can't be
  • 00:43:57
    replaced this could not have been
  • 00:43:58
    planned if I wasn't pissed off back then
  • 00:44:02
    or if I hadn't channeled my rage and
  • 00:44:04
    angs to a simple open source hack like a
  • 00:44:07
    tool it wouldn't have happened the moral
  • 00:44:09
    of the story is not to get pissed off
  • 00:44:11
    but what
  • 00:44:12
    happens if you get pissed off make sure
  • 00:44:15
    you make a open source contribution uh
  • 00:44:18
    but that's that's awesome to hear and
  • 00:44:20
    the other thing is that you never know
  • 00:44:21
    how big your contribution can become
  • 00:44:23
    right when you start off you're being a
  • 00:44:25
    harbinger of an issue that you're facing
  • 00:44:29
    and then you never know how others are
  • 00:44:30
    going to take it from there and that's a
  • 00:44:33
    great feeling um if you are especially
  • 00:44:35
    an open source author um so again like
  • 00:44:39
    he said be pissed but then don't just
  • 00:44:41
    remain pissed uh fix it open source your
  • 00:44:46
    anger uh now talking about instances
  • 00:44:50
    where you've use open source projects
  • 00:44:51
    has there been projects where you know
  • 00:44:54
    you've had to take you took some project
  • 00:44:56
    that seemed cursed from from the
  • 00:44:57
    beginning of sorts uh we can all relate
  • 00:44:59
    to some of those things uh and then
  • 00:45:02
    suddenly you had to take ownership or
  • 00:45:05
    Zer have to take ownership and turn it
  • 00:45:06
    around has there been any such projects
  • 00:45:09
    are you talking about
  • 00:45:11
    Gates could be
  • 00:45:13
    anything uh thankfully not too many
  • 00:45:16
    that's because before we pick up a piece
  • 00:45:18
    of technology and induct it we do this
  • 00:45:21
    R&D thing we test it out we build a p we
  • 00:45:25
    we batter it
  • 00:45:27
    and we get to a certain level of
  • 00:45:29
    confidence before saying oh this looks
  • 00:45:31
    good enough uh it seems like a safe bet
  • 00:45:34
    so thankfully because we've done that
  • 00:45:36
    with almost everything we haven't really
  • 00:45:39
    been uh hurt much but there have been a
  • 00:45:42
    few libraries Etc that have completely
  • 00:45:45
    backfired which we've had to you know
  • 00:45:46
    which we've had to firefight but the
  • 00:45:48
    trick is to do a proper technical
  • 00:45:50
    objective evaluation and decide based on
  • 00:45:53
    that level of confidence that has saved
  • 00:45:55
    us over the last decade it's
  • 00:45:59
    awesome do you worry about the economics
  • 00:46:01
    of Open Source projects is that
  • 00:46:04
    something that comes your you know as as
  • 00:46:06
    you know we all agree here about the
  • 00:46:09
    amount of impact open source projects
  • 00:46:11
    have uh in our lives is you know in our
  • 00:46:14
    lives because everything right from our
  • 00:46:15
    phone to a lot of things that we do um
  • 00:46:19
    are shaped by open source but then there
  • 00:46:22
    are there are not as many contributors
  • 00:46:24
    back into the open source world as there
  • 00:46:27
    needs to be um do you worry about the
  • 00:46:30
    fact that it is um it is becoming a
  • 00:46:34
    problem of pandemic proportions of uh
  • 00:46:36
    you know corporates mostly just using
  • 00:46:40
    and consuming and not giving
  • 00:46:42
    back yes I do and the question of
  • 00:46:47
    sustainability Financial sustainability
  • 00:46:49
    in the open source world has been a it's
  • 00:46:51
    been a really big question mark uh
  • 00:46:53
    forever and over the last few years the
  • 00:46:55
    debate has become extremely Ed elastics
  • 00:46:59
    licensing Fiasco mongod and the most
  • 00:47:01
    recent hashicorp and redis right these
  • 00:47:03
    are all symptoms of this particular
  • 00:47:06
    problem way back open source technology
  • 00:47:09
    was built by Enthusiast put out there
  • 00:47:12
    and users individuals use them small
  • 00:47:14
    little logs use them other hackers use
  • 00:47:17
    them and contributed back then with the
  • 00:47:21
    massive
  • 00:47:22
    commercialization of the internet uh and
  • 00:47:25
    all of us are part of it you know
  • 00:47:27
    uh over the last decade or so more over
  • 00:47:30
    the last 10 15 years it has become a
  • 00:47:32
    really big problem when you have
  • 00:47:33
    trillion dollar corporations consume
  • 00:47:36
    open source built by two people who were
  • 00:47:38
    struggling to pay their bills and they
  • 00:47:40
    build multi-billion dollar Enterprise on
  • 00:47:42
    top of force again uh built by people
  • 00:47:45
    who have nothing that's that's unethical
  • 00:47:48
    outright unethical but there's no legal
  • 00:47:50
    boundary of it so for licenses the
  • 00:47:53
    ideology was crafted in an era that
  • 00:47:55
    didn't really foresee
  • 00:47:57
    all of this this it was mostly about
  • 00:47:59
    developer freedoms but users today are
  • 00:48:03
    not individuals they are trillion dollar
  • 00:48:05
    corporations billion dollar corporations
  • 00:48:07
    right and that disparity is a huge huge
  • 00:48:10
    problem thankfully it's a big
  • 00:48:12
    uh point of discussion and contention
  • 00:48:15
    also and we're seeing you know things
  • 00:48:18
    like open Collective GitHub sponsorship
  • 00:48:20
    etc etc uh these are all slow models
  • 00:48:24
    that are emerging uh there's widespread
  • 00:48:27
    criticism of large organizations
  • 00:48:29
    consuming and extracting from open
  • 00:48:31
    source it's all out there in the
  • 00:48:32
    mainstream so I'm hoping that some of
  • 00:48:34
    these models will emerge or some of the
  • 00:48:36
    other model will that will emerge that
  • 00:48:38
    will address this to a large extent so
  • 00:48:41
    even the false fund I said we're going
  • 00:48:43
    to announce we've been we as an OG in
  • 00:48:47
    our organizational capacity have been
  • 00:48:49
    sending money to products that we derive
  • 00:48:51
    value from stuff that we use that we
  • 00:48:53
    like but uh our next step is to do this
  • 00:48:56
    F fund that's open to all F projects in
  • 00:48:58
    the world where you can request for
  • 00:49:00
    funding globally so I'm hoping more
  • 00:49:03
    companies will do it it's yet another
  • 00:49:05
    model we need a large number of models
  • 00:49:08
    that will start tackling this problem
  • 00:49:10
    and I'm hoping it will happen in the
  • 00:49:12
    next five years uh do you see your uh
  • 00:49:16
    yourself in zeroda leading that effort
  • 00:49:18
    to build a collective not just of each
  • 00:49:21
    company giving you know having siloed
  • 00:49:24
    programs but having One Singular program
  • 00:49:26
    prog at the top that will help uh fund
  • 00:49:29
    these open source projects or do you
  • 00:49:30
    expect every company to sort of like
  • 00:49:33
    have their own siloed processes around
  • 00:49:35
    funding I think it should be a mix of
  • 00:49:37
    both any sort of One Umbrella one model
  • 00:49:41
    that is large and centralize will not be
  • 00:49:43
    good we need all kinds of models to
  • 00:49:45
    emerge we need multiple collectives to
  • 00:49:47
    emerge we need multiple individual
  • 00:49:49
    efforts to emerge so our hope with this
  • 00:49:52
    is of course we want to genuinely fund
  • 00:49:54
    open source projects which is why we're
  • 00:49:56
    doing it
  • 00:49:57
    but uh our other big hope is that that
  • 00:50:01
    this maybe pressurizes or inspires other
  • 00:50:04
    organizations to also I love the word
  • 00:50:07
    inspire I like the word
  • 00:50:09
    pressurized to also try stuff like this
  • 00:50:12
    these are all models being
  • 00:50:15
    tried and you talked a little bit about
  • 00:50:17
    licenses this is also where I think you
  • 00:50:20
    know we have the strong copy left uh
  • 00:50:24
    licenses versus the permissive licenses
  • 00:50:26
    be lgpl GPL to MIT P
  • 00:50:31
    um where do your thoughts recite because
  • 00:50:35
    sometimes the lgpl GPL also becomes uh
  • 00:50:38
    in a way it is it is to it will prevent
  • 00:50:41
    these other companies coming in and
  • 00:50:43
    taking over things but it also sometimes
  • 00:50:46
    prevents um adoption itself for legal
  • 00:50:49
    reasons uh whatever be so U where where
  • 00:50:53
    where do your thoughts lie on these
  • 00:50:55
    licensing uh models with present within
  • 00:50:57
    the open source
  • 00:50:58
    world I don't really have a set view on
  • 00:51:02
    this I think different scenarios context
  • 00:51:05
    projects uh environments have different
  • 00:51:07
    licensing requirements I have personal
  • 00:51:09
    projects that are AGP licensed I also
  • 00:51:12
    have personal projects that are uh MIT
  • 00:51:14
    licensed and I pick based on some loose
  • 00:51:18
    criteria that I have in my head but
  • 00:51:20
    people should pick the licenses that
  • 00:51:22
    they want uh and you yes all of us want
  • 00:51:26
    adoption for our projects but you
  • 00:51:28
    shouldn't be
  • 00:51:31
    uh you shouldn't be candy wrapping your
  • 00:51:33
    project for some hypothetical trillion
  • 00:51:36
    dollar Corporation to or multibillion
  • 00:51:38
    dollar Corporation to come pick up your
  • 00:51:39
    project and use it uh I think you should
  • 00:51:42
    really forget about that and focus on
  • 00:51:44
    quality that's been my experience this
  • 00:51:46
    AGP licensed project it's called lism
  • 00:51:48
    it's a new manager uh I've been working
  • 00:51:50
    on it for six years it's agpl and I
  • 00:51:53
    think Google has an explicit policy that
  • 00:51:55
    says that
  • 00:51:57
    uh we will not use agpl products right
  • 00:52:00
    but the Recently I found out that uh one
  • 00:52:03
    of the Departments of the US federal
  • 00:52:06
    government has a lism installation I
  • 00:52:08
    think they send newsletters I don't know
  • 00:52:10
    so it doesn't matter you should focus on
  • 00:52:13
    you should have a decent license that is
  • 00:52:15
    appropriate like you shouldn't have an
  • 00:52:17
    egpa license on a CSS library that would
  • 00:52:19
    make no sense you should focus on the
  • 00:52:21
    quality and usability of your product
  • 00:52:23
    and have a decently appropriate license
  • 00:52:25
    and will always be user
  • 00:52:27
    and the large organizations or
  • 00:52:29
    corporations who have a problem with the
  • 00:52:30
    license they don't have to use it they
  • 00:52:31
    can make their own or fork or whatever
  • 00:52:33
    so I that's that's my viewpoint and this
  • 00:52:37
    I've seen it play
  • 00:52:39
    out what what is your loose criteria
  • 00:52:41
    that you Ed to you know make sure
  • 00:52:44
    project agpl or
  • 00:52:46
    MIT so uh MIT for instance if it's a
  • 00:52:50
    small little library and few hundred
  • 00:52:52
    lines or whatever Mi MIT makes more
  • 00:52:55
    sense Take It remix do whatever you want
  • 00:52:58
    but if I'm putting in tons of effort
  • 00:53:00
    into a project and if somebody's making
  • 00:53:03
    improvements to it I'd rather see those
  • 00:53:05
    improvements come out in the open uh so
  • 00:53:08
    list monk is agpl because it's also a
  • 00:53:10
    web app it's a networked service network
  • 00:53:13
    serviced app which is why it's a agpu uh
  • 00:53:16
    and AG is specifically for networked uh
  • 00:53:19
    projects you know things that can
  • 00:53:21
    operate as s and I like working on it I
  • 00:53:23
    spend a lot of time on it if somebody's
  • 00:53:25
    using it if any ra is using it and they
  • 00:53:28
    make changes I I'd rather see those
  • 00:53:30
    improvements come back into the main uh
  • 00:53:32
    project itself
  • 00:53:35
    yeah so we've talked a lot about what
  • 00:53:38
    zeroa is doing and what it plans to do
  • 00:53:40
    in the future um what trends are you
  • 00:53:43
    seeing out in the open with regards to
  • 00:53:45
    open source and you know anything that's
  • 00:53:48
    on the bright side and what do you think
  • 00:53:50
    are some of the things that that concern
  • 00:53:52
    you in general uh but from your Vantage
  • 00:53:56
    Point what what are the things that you
  • 00:53:57
    think are going to be great for open
  • 00:54:00
    source open source has completely
  • 00:54:03
    consumed the world so that is that's
  • 00:54:05
    great everything runs on open source
  • 00:54:07
    there's no denying absolutely everything
  • 00:54:08
    is built on open source the number of
  • 00:54:11
    Open Source Products that come out every
  • 00:54:13
    year is immense the quality of false is
  • 00:54:16
    just unimaginably it's amazing back in
  • 00:54:19
    the day they used to be this thing that
  • 00:54:20
    oh it's open source it's not user
  • 00:54:22
    friendly this other thing is user
  • 00:54:23
    friendly all of that is flipped the best
  • 00:54:25
    quality ux today is in F products and
  • 00:54:29
    Microsoft is the biggest Global
  • 00:54:31
    supporter of f right now that should
  • 00:54:33
    tell you something so
  • 00:54:36
    uh there is massive amounts of money
  • 00:54:39
    coming into Force I don't know if it's
  • 00:54:41
    good or bad I mean the jury is still out
  • 00:54:44
    uh there are entire Venture capitalists
  • 00:54:46
    who started false portfolios they'll
  • 00:54:48
    only there are VCS who go on GitHub
  • 00:54:51
    sought by stars and write to project
  • 00:54:53
    developers saying I'm a VC I'd like to
  • 00:54:55
    fund your project so money coming into
  • 00:54:57
    for is great the sustainability question
  • 00:54:59
    but we see money coming in what sort of
  • 00:55:02
    money what's its Dynamic what the
  • 00:55:03
    outcome is I don't really know uh but
  • 00:55:06
    yeah these are the trends and then of
  • 00:55:08
    course we have amazing Force projects
  • 00:55:11
    flip and become uh open core and non
  • 00:55:14
    Force like red Etc that's
  • 00:55:18
    concerning cool one last question do you
  • 00:55:21
    have any open source projects or ideas
  • 00:55:23
    that are still in the crazy phase or
  • 00:55:25
    you're thinking about to open source
  • 00:55:28
    anything that you would like all of us
  • 00:55:30
    to
  • 00:55:32
    follow I have a to-do list that
  • 00:55:36
    stretches back 17 18 years every
  • 00:55:38
    developer has one day I will work on
  • 00:55:41
    this it's a text file it keeps on
  • 00:55:43
    growing and I never look back I really
  • 00:55:45
    don't liking at that file so there's
  • 00:55:46
    that but uh with there's a large update
  • 00:55:51
    to the dictionary coming very large
  • 00:55:53
    update but what I've spent quite a bit
  • 00:55:56
    of time over the last two months is on
  • 00:55:57
    version four of this monk uh with
  • 00:56:00
    multi-user multi- tency IDC etc
  • 00:56:04
    etc I like working on it I don't even
  • 00:56:06
    know why but I keep working on it but uh
  • 00:56:09
    that is something that I'm very excited
  • 00:56:10
    about and I think this will make it
  • 00:56:12
    organization friendly so leson could
  • 00:56:15
    only had one super user you could log in
  • 00:56:17
    as one user and maintain your
  • 00:56:19
    newsletters Etc but I I see that a lot
  • 00:56:22
    of companies use it government
  • 00:56:23
    departments use it NGS use it and you
  • 00:56:26
    need multi-user access so that's what
  • 00:56:28
    I've been working on it come out
  • 00:56:29
    hopefully this month so that's been
  • 00:56:32
    quite a lot of work good to hear about
  • 00:56:36
    that and thank you so much for all the
  • 00:56:38
    questions you patiently answered uh
  • 00:56:40
    we're not done yet because we now we're
  • 00:56:42
    going to turn it over to the audience to
  • 00:56:44
    be able to ask questions um so do we
  • 00:56:47
    have a mic that we could pass on please
  • 00:57:07
    I was saying the other day drinking
  • 00:57:08
    water during interviews is a very
  • 00:57:10
    sensitive thing to do these
  • 00:57:14
    days I won't ask the reason we can talk
  • 00:57:17
    after this is a this is a question for
  • 00:57:19
    both of you since both of you are open
  • 00:57:21
    source St words you know no I don't
  • 00:57:24
    compare me to him um my question is
  • 00:57:26
    about uh so adoption of uh you know High
  • 00:57:29
    maturity projects is you know always an
  • 00:57:31
    easy decision right but uh organization
  • 00:57:34
    adoption of low maturity products is
  • 00:57:35
    something that I'm you know curious
  • 00:57:36
    about like what is your you know view on
  • 00:57:39
    you know how it gets absolved especially
  • 00:57:41
    when there is no support right how it
  • 00:57:43
    eventually matures into something how
  • 00:57:45
    would it even mature into something that
  • 00:57:46
    is you know like a
  • 00:57:48
    spring that's so if I may repeat your
  • 00:57:53
    question you're asking about low
  • 00:57:54
    maturity open source projects
  • 00:57:57
    spring is one of the most supported
  • 00:57:59
    projects in the world I'm seeing you how
  • 00:58:01
    does the low maturity open source
  • 00:58:02
    project you know eventually what is the
  • 00:58:04
    trends been like it how does it
  • 00:58:05
    eventually become a spring okay I'll let
  • 00:58:07
    him are you also asking about one's
  • 00:58:10
    decision how do you decide to use yes I
  • 00:58:12
    mean so how does an organization you
  • 00:58:14
    know because there's no support for it
  • 00:58:16
    right so then the organization has spend
  • 00:58:18
    their own you know sweat capita into
  • 00:58:20
    that right so both it's a tradeoff and
  • 00:58:24
    it's a risk but there are a bunch of
  • 00:58:25
    things that you can look at you can do a
  • 00:58:28
    technical evaluation of the project
  • 00:58:29
    itself to kind of gauge its quality its
  • 00:58:32
    extensibility and then you can uh if you
  • 00:58:35
    really need to use it and doesn't have
  • 00:58:37
    support you can evaluate whether worst
  • 00:58:40
    case scenario you can FOC it and
  • 00:58:42
    maintain it yourself and if you have the
  • 00:58:44
    ability to do that that's the biggest uh
  • 00:58:47
    sense of Liberty you can derive from a
  • 00:58:49
    project and uh one example I could site
  • 00:58:52
    is uh flutter Google's mobile fra uh
  • 00:58:57
    mobile
  • 00:58:58
    framework we started evaluating flutter
  • 00:59:02
    in 2017 when it was pre-alpha and I
  • 00:59:05
    don't think there was any uh flutter
  • 00:59:07
    serious flutter project in the world on
  • 00:59:09
    the App Store and our trading platform I
  • 00:59:12
    think was the first serious flutter
  • 00:59:13
    project ever to hit the markets we spent
  • 00:59:17
    several days in fact we have a very long
  • 00:59:19
    blog post on this particular topic
  • 00:59:21
    describing the entire journey of
  • 00:59:23
    evaluation so we had such a big issue
  • 00:59:26
    with react native there we'd rather you
  • 00:59:28
    know it was okay to bet on a on an
  • 00:59:32
    experimental pre-alpha project than live
  • 00:59:35
    with react native so you have all those
  • 00:59:37
    trade-offs then we did a technical
  • 00:59:38
    evaluation and realized that even if
  • 00:59:40
    Google killed the project Google Never
  • 00:59:42
    Kills projects
  • 00:59:43
    right just need to go to the
  • 00:59:46
    graveyard even if Google killed the
  • 00:59:48
    project we'd still be okay to run
  • 00:59:50
    flutter in that version for at least 3
  • 00:59:52
    four years which would give us ample
  • 00:59:54
    time to figure something else out we
  • 00:59:56
    also figured that some of the quirks it
  • 00:59:58
    had then we could put in some effort and
  • 01:00:01
    you iron those out so it's a trade-off
  • 01:00:03
    and you have to look at it very
  • 01:00:05
    contextually and take that
  • 01:00:07
    bet just to add to what kalash said also
  • 01:00:10
    if your question is about open source
  • 01:00:12
    projects let's say started within
  • 01:00:14
    guidewire or is it outside so then I
  • 01:00:16
    subscribe to the same view if it's
  • 01:00:17
    critical to your your application then
  • 01:00:20
    you better have contributors into that
  • 01:00:22
    open source ecosystem if it is critical
  • 01:00:24
    to what you're doing example is we have
  • 01:00:26
    CUA which is something that we have been
  • 01:00:29
    now contributing to very uh consciously
  • 01:00:32
    as the maintainers of sort of step down
  • 01:00:35
    uh to some extent so if it is critical
  • 01:00:38
    make sure it's part of your regular
  • 01:00:39
    development
  • 01:00:46
    effort so thanks Kash for the inspiring
  • 01:00:49
    stories my question is on where do you
  • 01:00:52
    see the Indian developer Community
  • 01:00:53
    contributing to this open
  • 01:00:56
    source
  • 01:00:59
    software question what else do you
  • 01:01:02
    expect the developers a lot of IND out
  • 01:01:04
    here so what do you expect uh where do
  • 01:01:06
    you see India these building starting
  • 01:01:10
    projects uh rather than rather than know
  • 01:01:12
    expecting someone else to build it and
  • 01:01:14
    contributing to it so if I may also just
  • 01:01:17
    tag on to that question I think I saw
  • 01:01:20
    some um survey results we have large
  • 01:01:24
    amount of developers I don't think we
  • 01:01:25
    have that as many amount of Open Source
  • 01:01:27
    contributions so that reflects from the
  • 01:01:29
    question that you're he's asking you've
  • 01:01:32
    just triggered me this is a
  • 01:01:34
    very this is a very touchy topic for me
  • 01:01:36
    and one of the reasons why we set up the
  • 01:01:38
    entire for nonprofit foundation in 2020
  • 01:01:42
    was to address this one particular issue
  • 01:01:44
    so on GitHub there are about I think 16
  • 01:01:47
    million developers from India which
  • 01:01:50
    represent the single represents the
  • 01:01:52
    single largest developer demographic on
  • 01:01:54
    GitHub in the world
  • 01:01:56
    but you look at the number of projects
  • 01:01:58
    that come out of India on GitHub we rank
  • 01:02:00
    amongst the among the lowest and that
  • 01:02:04
    disparity that it's so disproportionate
  • 01:02:06
    it's sad it makes me angry uh should
  • 01:02:10
    make all of us angry
  • 01:02:11
    too uh and I've I've been thinking about
  • 01:02:14
    this for a for many years why is it so
  • 01:02:17
    right we and and the entire Indian
  • 01:02:20
    startup ecosystem the mega boom over the
  • 01:02:22
    last decade plus has been built on top
  • 01:02:24
    of every Indian startup has developers
  • 01:02:27
    working on react native or flutter or
  • 01:02:30
    python or whatever whatever right
  • 01:02:31
    everything is open source why don't we
  • 01:02:32
    contribute anything back and uh
  • 01:02:36
    anecdotally lots of thinking lots of
  • 01:02:38
    interactions with industry folks startup
  • 01:02:40
    folks developer communi students I think
  • 01:02:44
    maybe the key to this is a cultural
  • 01:02:46
    problem at the management level in the
  • 01:02:49
    industry because
  • 01:02:51
    uh engineering students uh students in
  • 01:02:56
    colleges typically the ones doing
  • 01:02:57
    engineering they're so excited to
  • 01:02:59
    contribute they participate in
  • 01:03:01
    hackathons they they so excited to build
  • 01:03:05
    stuff keep asking the people keep asking
  • 01:03:08
    how do I contribute Etc so where where
  • 01:03:10
    do they go uh where does their
  • 01:03:12
    enthusiasm go to die in the Indian
  • 01:03:14
    industry is what I've understood so
  • 01:03:16
    defin jobs they end up in large large
  • 01:03:19
    and small company startups Etc but then
  • 01:03:22
    they they vanish there's nothing coming
  • 01:03:24
    back how can that be right it goes back
  • 01:03:26
    to our early conversation this has to be
  • 01:03:28
    a culture that is set from the top a
  • 01:03:32
    tech company's management should that
  • 01:03:35
    users Force should have this culture
  • 01:03:38
    ingrained from day one or they should
  • 01:03:40
    make an attempt at least give developers
  • 01:03:43
    and Engineers an Avenue at least an
  • 01:03:45
    encouragement to contribute back most
  • 01:03:48
    augs like 9.99% of Indian alls don't
  • 01:03:51
    have it and something that pains me
  • 01:03:53
    greatly so yes it's a it's actually kind
  • 01:03:57
    of a shame that we represent the single
  • 01:03:59
    largest developer community in the world
  • 01:04:02
    and yet we also produce practically no
  • 01:04:06
    open source contributions
  • 01:04:08
    relatively well let's hope we the people
  • 01:04:11
    here in this room are going to be agents
  • 01:04:13
    to change that we pissed
  • 01:04:17
    off hi Rahul great to have you here uh
  • 01:04:20
    my question is around licensing we were
  • 01:04:22
    talking about it bit earlier uh I ran
  • 01:04:25
    into this one while contributing to
  • 01:04:28
    something last week it was uh CLA
  • 01:04:30
    agreement that I had to sign up uh so
  • 01:04:33
    what's your view on that and more
  • 01:04:35
    importantly would you encourage uh
  • 01:04:37
    contributions to projects that force you
  • 01:04:40
    to sign a CLA and would zeroda ever uh
  • 01:04:44
    make something open source that requires
  • 01:04:46
    a CLA I'm not a fan of clas but I
  • 01:04:49
    wouldn't outright dismiss them certain
  • 01:04:52
    projects uh CLA is an agreement where
  • 01:04:55
    the developer says that I'm contributing
  • 01:04:57
    something but the maintainers and owners
  • 01:04:59
    of the project are free to relicense the
  • 01:05:01
    contribution at a later Point that's
  • 01:05:03
    what a CA is and many large projects
  • 01:05:05
    force you to sign a CLA before you
  • 01:05:08
    contribute something and it's not a
  • 01:05:09
    great sign why would a project that has
  • 01:05:11
    a good open source license need a CLA
  • 01:05:13
    from others unless they have a plan to
  • 01:05:15
    change contingency to relicense at some
  • 01:05:18
    point so I'm not a fan of CLA but I
  • 01:05:20
    think there could be those rare
  • 01:05:21
    occasions where some projects may have
  • 01:05:23
    to have a CLA uh open street map
  • 01:05:27
    relicensing was a big example of like a
  • 01:05:30
    legit CA thing they had to go after
  • 01:05:32
    thousands of developers and get their
  • 01:05:34
    consent later to do a change that was
  • 01:05:36
    really warranted but generally for large
  • 01:05:40
    projects it's it's not the case we would
  • 01:05:42
    never do a CLA I mean I I'm not a fan of
  • 01:05:44
    clas and I don't have CLA on any of my
  • 01:05:48
    projects thank
  • 01:05:51
    you behind behind you
  • 01:05:56
    okay so uh my question is Rel to
  • 01:05:59
    learning can you can you hold the mic
  • 01:06:01
    near yeah as a so my question is related
  • 01:06:04
    to machine learning uh I found out in
  • 01:06:07
    intro that they introduced like you have
  • 01:06:10
    done your PhD in machine learning which
  • 01:06:12
    is really great like in 2011 around that
  • 01:06:15
    area but since you've been working zero
  • 01:06:19
    so this question is for both of you what
  • 01:06:21
    do you think this machine learning in uh
  • 01:06:23
    fintech or in Zera
  • 01:06:26
    I have seen like in Z you guys are not
  • 01:06:29
    using machine learning so is there any
  • 01:06:32
    plan about using machine learning in
  • 01:06:35
    zeruda in future or again this question
  • 01:06:37
    to both of you do you think machine
  • 01:06:40
    learning or open- Source uh projects
  • 01:06:42
    that we have currently will be useful in
  • 01:06:46
    either zeruda or in guide I know there
  • 01:06:49
    are couple of projects in guide but any
  • 01:06:52
    major PL in Z guide
  • 01:06:55
    machine learning and make it more uh
  • 01:06:58
    user friendly or make it to reach more
  • 01:07:04
    uh
  • 01:07:06
    people answer um so at least for guide I
  • 01:07:11
    know Douglas isn't here so I can't speak
  • 01:07:13
    for his department but that said our aim
  • 01:07:16
    is to use a lot of Open Source projects
  • 01:07:18
    right I mean machine learning and if I
  • 01:07:19
    look at models in general there's a lot
  • 01:07:21
    of growth that is happening in the open
  • 01:07:23
    source world you go to hugging face you
  • 01:07:25
    can you you can download lot of models
  • 01:07:26
    in there these are all found most of
  • 01:07:29
    these are foundational models you'll
  • 01:07:30
    have to build things that are contextual
  • 01:07:32
    to your industry your uh you know how
  • 01:07:36
    your company Works
  • 01:07:38
    Etc I do feel over time that this will
  • 01:07:41
    also expand to such an extent that
  • 01:07:43
    there's a lot of things that would be
  • 01:07:45
    common in nature that you could give
  • 01:07:47
    back to the um uh to the to the industry
  • 01:07:50
    or to the open source world there's
  • 01:07:52
    always going to be a danger in how how
  • 01:07:55
    much you open source there some of this
  • 01:07:57
    could be IP related could be regulatory
  • 01:07:59
    could I mean insurance is also one of
  • 01:08:01
    the most regulated um Industries in the
  • 01:08:03
    world um so there could be those
  • 01:08:06
    restrictions in play but if you look at
  • 01:08:08
    the ecosystem around it you know be it
  • 01:08:11
    like for example running models in a
  • 01:08:14
    smaller models in let's say K8 I you
  • 01:08:16
    don't like K but still U I love KS so uh
  • 01:08:20
    there could be things like that so
  • 01:08:21
    there's tools like bent ml Etc how you
  • 01:08:23
    could run simple models so we could we
  • 01:08:25
    could expand our footprint into those
  • 01:08:28
    ecosystem to make it easy to use and run
  • 01:08:32
    models for developers right right now
  • 01:08:34
    you have to handle a lot of
  • 01:08:36
    infrastructural components to be able to
  • 01:08:38
    get there so I think in that area you
  • 01:08:40
    will see an explosion of Open Source
  • 01:08:42
    tools and then over time it'll
  • 01:08:44
    consolidate into a few good ones that
  • 01:08:47
    everybody can use uh but that's that's
  • 01:08:49
    what I
  • 01:08:50
    feel I think uh the question shouldn't
  • 01:08:55
    idly be framed from that perspective
  • 01:08:58
    will Zera use machine learning that's
  • 01:09:00
    like asking will Zera use databases or
  • 01:09:03
    will Z use machine learning is a very
  • 01:09:05
    very broad term it's an entire field
  • 01:09:07
    it's an entire Spectrum so it would be a
  • 01:09:10
    very
  • 01:09:11
    solution
  • 01:09:12
    first problem second sort of a
  • 01:09:15
    question if there's a certain business
  • 01:09:18
    use case that requires the use of a
  • 01:09:20
    certain machine learning technology then
  • 01:09:22
    any company including Zera would use it
  • 01:09:25
    uh over the last 10 years we haven't had
  • 01:09:30
    to use any sort of machine learning
  • 01:09:32
    models or AI models despite my
  • 01:09:35
    background uh in research being that but
  • 01:09:38
    over the last two years uh since the
  • 01:09:41
    really big Transformer llm breakthroughs
  • 01:09:43
    we found some very interesting use cases
  • 01:09:45
    after the release of a lot of Open
  • 01:09:47
    Source models where we can sell for
  • 01:09:49
    certain models and solve certain
  • 01:09:51
    problems much much much better uh
  • 01:09:56
    which than what was possible before
  • 01:09:58
    certain problems that had no Solutions
  • 01:10:00
    today suddenly have Solutions down to
  • 01:10:03
    some of these models so we've been
  • 01:10:04
    experimenting internally so it should be
  • 01:10:07
    like any other technology if there's a
  • 01:10:08
    specific problem it will solve you can
  • 01:10:11
    use it you will definitely end up using
  • 01:10:12
    it but it shouldn't be really looked at
  • 01:10:15
    from a top down uh
  • 01:10:18
    manner answer your question Kare does
  • 01:10:20
    have machine learning models that we use
  • 01:10:22
    we have an entire team model so
  • 01:10:28
    Yeah question yeah so actually I wanted
  • 01:10:32
    to ask are you sure the mic is on yeah
  • 01:10:35
    am I AUD yes uh so you said that zeroa
  • 01:10:40
    kind of operates uh millions of orders
  • 01:10:43
    each day uh so how the fall tolerance
  • 01:10:46
    works like uh because it is quite time
  • 01:10:49
    sensitive right uh in in between I was
  • 01:10:52
    hearing about some orders were getting
  • 01:10:55
    placed but not executing so how do you
  • 01:10:59
    kind of uh work around that I just I was
  • 01:11:03
    just curious it's extremely complex uh
  • 01:11:06
    there was an issue last week I think
  • 01:11:08
    July 12th where for 30 minutes BC The
  • 01:11:12
    Exchange couldn't fulfill orders orders
  • 01:11:15
    were going through but they hung there
  • 01:11:18
    and to even figure out that it was a
  • 01:11:20
    market-wide issue with the exchange it
  • 01:11:22
    took a while so every single client Ross
  • 01:11:25
    a number of brokers who were trading
  • 01:11:26
    that particular segment had their ORD
  • 01:11:28
    stuck but we got murdered on social
  • 01:11:30
    media it got incorrectly attributed to
  • 01:11:33
    us because the fast feedback happens to
  • 01:11:35
    Zera where is slow and it's natural
  • 01:11:37
    because we have a large number of people
  • 01:11:39
    trading and uh it's natural so this was
  • 01:11:44
    one of those rare occasions where orders
  • 01:11:46
    went and hung in the exchange and then
  • 01:11:48
    everybody had to wait for 30 minutes for
  • 01:11:50
    the orders to be unlocked and Brokers
  • 01:11:52
    couldn't do anything nobody could do
  • 01:11:54
    anything it was a new scenario
  • 01:11:56
    so the markets are so complex the level
  • 01:11:59
    of activity in the Indian markets have
  • 01:12:00
    skyrocketed so much in the last four
  • 01:12:02
    years that every few months we see a new
  • 01:12:04
    scenario that has never played out
  • 01:12:06
    before across exchanges across Brokers
  • 01:12:10
    uh the week prior to that we had an
  • 01:12:13
    issue unfortunate issue in a in an old
  • 01:12:15
    Legacy component that uh affected a
  • 01:12:19
    small thankfully it's a distributed
  • 01:12:21
    architecture so there's an issue it's
  • 01:12:23
    contained to that Shard of and user are
  • 01:12:25
    shed there which lasted 20 minutes where
  • 01:12:29
    your order updates wouldn't refresh and
  • 01:12:33
    it happened in a manner that was never
  • 01:12:35
    seen before so it's very difficult and
  • 01:12:39
    uh you have to try and envision all
  • 01:12:42
    possible edge cases you have to learn
  • 01:12:45
    from whatever goes wrong and to and you
  • 01:12:47
    have to keep building these metrics so
  • 01:12:48
    we have we have an automated test Suite
  • 01:12:50
    of some 860 or 900 tests that run again
  • 01:12:55
    a bunch of parameters throughout the day
  • 01:12:57
    trying to these systems try to give us
  • 01:12:59
    early warnings so any issue that happens
  • 01:13:01
    in our stack uh is despite all of this
  • 01:13:07
    despite all the rigorous testing despite
  • 01:13:09
    all the whatever technology we built all
  • 01:13:11
    the mechanisms we have despite an
  • 01:13:14
    860 rule test speed running constantly
  • 01:13:18
    trying to warn us so it's extremely
  • 01:13:20
    complex and the Indian Indian industry
  • 01:13:22
    uh the stock markets the scale it's seen
  • 01:13:25
    in the last four years is unlike ever in
  • 01:13:27
    the history of the markets the entire
  • 01:13:29
    landscape including all the large
  • 01:13:31
    institutions like exchanges Brokers are
  • 01:13:33
    all evolving and I'm hoping that in the
  • 01:13:34
    next 2 three years you would all have
  • 01:13:40
    stabilized
  • 01:13:42
    yeah Kash thank you so much for all your
  • 01:13:44
    stories they were very inspiring for
  • 01:13:46
    sure sorry who's speaking I
  • 01:13:49
    can't um KES my my my question is uh
  • 01:13:53
    pertaining to you you you shared many
  • 01:13:55
    stories about how small projects were
  • 01:13:57
    hosted as open source and it helped a
  • 01:13:59
    lot of people out there right and um
  • 01:14:02
    this is where my question comes from
  • 01:14:04
    from this publishing strategy
  • 01:14:05
    perspective one of the fears that many
  • 01:14:08
    developers or many open source
  • 01:14:10
    contributors or want to contribute have
  • 01:14:12
    is that they put out something there but
  • 01:14:15
    it may not reach the Right audience or
  • 01:14:17
    right Community to get the necessary
  • 01:14:19
    feedback it's similar to the pressure a
  • 01:14:21
    content creator feels on a social media
  • 01:14:23
    platform right now do you have some tips
  • 01:14:25
    to tackle that from a publishing and
  • 01:14:27
    marketing strategy
  • 01:14:29
    perspective the reality is that
  • 01:14:33
    99.99999% of the projects that are
  • 01:14:35
    published don't find any users so we
  • 01:14:38
    just have to accept that the odds are so
  • 01:14:41
    the odds hinge entirely on the quality
  • 01:14:43
    and usability of a project but if a
  • 01:14:46
    project finds 50 users that in itself is
  • 01:14:48
    a big deal that puts you in the top 10
  • 01:14:50
    of all cost projects out there so you
  • 01:14:52
    have to you have to have a realistic
  • 01:14:55
    view of the landscape and uh the best
  • 01:14:59
    Discovery platform are today's big code
  • 01:15:02
    sharing platforms like GitHub GitHub in
  • 01:15:04
    itself is slowly transforming into a
  • 01:15:05
    social media like system which I'm not a
  • 01:15:08
    fan of but if you have a good read me if
  • 01:15:10
    you tagged it properly GitHub has
  • 01:15:13
    categories tags Etc if you have images
  • 01:15:16
    if you have a demo Etc it brings users
  • 01:15:19
    in so list monk this example that I
  • 01:15:22
    cited the only thing I done I did was
  • 01:15:25
    was I had a demo I click here to see the
  • 01:15:27
    product in action demo setup on day one
  • 01:15:30
    I had a nice read me documentation Etc
  • 01:15:33
    and uh I remember also posting it on
  • 01:15:35
    product hunt and somehow it got 100
  • 01:15:38
    users then word of mouth and over many
  • 01:15:40
    years it's picked up a lot of users but
  • 01:15:42
    when I released it it was in a very very
  • 01:15:44
    raw shape uh it was a pre-alpha version
  • 01:15:48
    and it took one and a half years or two
  • 01:15:49
    years for it to even become stable at
  • 01:15:51
    1.0 so just put an effort into making a
  • 01:15:55
    project presentable and using the
  • 01:15:58
    utilities of things like GitHub that are
  • 01:16:01
    there for Discovery and that works
  • 01:16:03
    GitHub itself drives traffic to
  • 01:16:05
    projects yeah so so the trucks of the
  • 01:16:08
    matter is being persistent right like
  • 01:16:10
    you said
  • 01:16:11
    99.9% in life with everything yes
  • 01:16:13
    exactly thank you so
  • 01:16:17
    much I think question
  • 01:16:21
    there hi kalash my name is f I'm from
  • 01:16:24
    manuk
  • 01:16:25
    or uh I would like to know why you don't
  • 01:16:28
    like
  • 01:16:30
    kubernetes and what is the specific
  • 01:16:32
    reason behind that because again the
  • 01:16:35
    kubernetes is a mammoth of among the the
  • 01:16:38
    question yourself it's a mammoth and
  • 01:16:40
    yeah but there is a huge community
  • 01:16:42
    support and it's doing well um almost
  • 01:16:45
    most of the uh companies using
  • 01:16:48
    kubernetes for their infrastructure
  • 01:16:50
    deployment and what do you guys use I'm
  • 01:16:52
    presuming that you are not using kuber
  • 01:16:55
    for your infrastructure deployment so
  • 01:16:56
    what you guys use so one other thing
  • 01:16:58
    before you answer is that just because
  • 01:17:00
    everybody is using something it should
  • 01:17:01
    never be the reason why we we tend to
  • 01:17:03
    use it correct right it has to be
  • 01:17:04
    contextual so um let's erase that for a
  • 01:17:08
    second and then I'll let him
  • 01:17:10
    answer yeah I would like to know his
  • 01:17:12
    perspective why not using kubernetes so
  • 01:17:15
    You' ask me that question what were
  • 01:17:17
    those failures false project failures
  • 01:17:18
    Kates was one of those we actually used
  • 01:17:20
    it piloted it slowly extended it over a
  • 01:17:22
    period of 2 years and it just didn't
  • 01:17:24
    work out so our goal uh wasn't really to
  • 01:17:28
    scale uh the features of gates that
  • 01:17:31
    allow you to scale Etc that wasn't
  • 01:17:33
    really the goal our goal was to have a
  • 01:17:35
    uniform developer deployment packaging
  • 01:17:39
    experience and we started moving small
  • 01:17:42
    little projects and we ended up with a
  • 01:17:45
    nightmarish hell of nested yaml files
  • 01:17:48
    yaml within yaml in fact we had to open
  • 01:17:51
    source build an open source multiple
  • 01:17:53
    tools that will that would help help us
  • 01:17:55
    handle the an and this is despite our
  • 01:17:57
    programs having very few dependencies
  • 01:17:59
    having it designed in the old school you
  • 01:18:01
    know 12 Factor whatever way Etc and at a
  • 01:18:04
    point it became a drain we wanted
  • 01:18:06
    developers to quickly write manifest so
  • 01:18:08
    that they could do you know participate
  • 01:18:11
    in the uniform abile is tell that no no
  • 01:18:15
    that's that that smile is because that's
  • 01:18:16
    exactly the problem that we're trying to
  • 01:18:18
    solve uh through though by extending
  • 01:18:20
    kubernetes in our way uh but please go I
  • 01:18:23
    think it's unsolvable that's the way
  • 01:18:24
    nature of K so uh it backfired for us
  • 01:18:27
    maybe it works for mins I have no
  • 01:18:29
    problems with that but at Zera it failed
  • 01:18:32
    spectacularly and we put in so much
  • 01:18:34
    effort over two years then we switched
  • 01:18:36
    to Nomad Hashi cops NAD and it's such a
  • 01:18:40
    simple system everybody can see what
  • 01:18:42
    goes on instantly it is a it takes like
  • 01:18:46
    a minute to install deploy uh your app
  • 01:18:48
    goes and runs in a Docker container or a
  • 01:18:51
    raw instance or a CH root ship
  • 01:18:55
    and the Manifest for an average app is
  • 01:18:58
    like 25 lines and I can read somebody
  • 01:19:00
    else's deployment manifest the XL file
  • 01:19:03
    and understand it in 10 seconds and
  • 01:19:05
    nobody to today complains of deployments
  • 01:19:07
    anymore that's the greatest sign nobody
  • 01:19:09
    spends time on writing deployment
  • 01:19:11
    manifests and it's a super super simple
  • 01:19:14
    system with much fewer abstractions to
  • 01:19:18
    uh run I also remember Cades some weird
  • 01:19:21
    Cades quirks it has a proxy Cube proxy
  • 01:19:24
    proxy Q proxy thing uh we have to
  • 01:19:27
    transmit massive files among services at
  • 01:19:29
    the end of the day huge data Dums that
  • 01:19:32
    it would just there would be TCP breaks
  • 01:19:34
    there would be TCP failures where Q
  • 01:19:36
    proxy would just stop transmitting a
  • 01:19:38
    fire what do you do where do you go
  • 01:19:39
    debug it's such a rabbit hole of layers
  • 01:19:43
    and layers of complexity and we really
  • 01:19:46
    shun complexity like that with Nomad you
  • 01:19:48
    know exactly what's going on it'll go
  • 01:19:50
    around your app wherever and it's very
  • 01:19:52
    easy to understand visualize
  • 01:19:55
    yeah our use case was setting a platform
  • 01:19:58
    for our customers right so a context
  • 01:20:00
    where we started using kuet is very
  • 01:20:03
    different from where he's coming from uh
  • 01:20:06
    his is mostly a SAS plat SAS level
  • 01:20:09
    application is how I would see we were
  • 01:20:10
    like selling platforms to customers to
  • 01:20:13
    develop on top of um and we buil the
  • 01:20:15
    abstractions there but that is not
  • 01:20:18
    saying that kubernetes is not complex it
  • 01:20:20
    is complex hence we built abstraction
  • 01:20:23
    now the question is how do we build non-
  • 01:20:26
    leaky abstractions um it is it is an
  • 01:20:29
    effort it isn't it isn't done in a day I
  • 01:20:32
    think we've we've gotten to some you
  • 01:20:34
    should set up a small Sprint R&D team
  • 01:20:36
    that evaluates Nomad we we use NAD
  • 01:20:39
    before we move from Nomad to kubernetes
  • 01:20:42
    for certain cases um yeah absolutely
  • 01:20:46
    like I said it's Case by case basis I'm
  • 01:20:48
    sure yeah it didn't work for us it may
  • 01:20:50
    work for others
  • 01:20:57
    35 member team is buil and man can you
  • 01:21:00
    hold the mic closer so you mentioned 35
  • 01:21:03
    member team is you know built and
  • 01:21:05
    maintaining so just curious what is the
  • 01:21:08
    development process the testing process
  • 01:21:10
    how that efficiency is
  • 01:21:13
    POS automation huh automation yeah tons
  • 01:21:18
    of automation uh and you have to write
  • 01:21:22
    software that is simple to understand
  • 01:21:24
    and maintain extend so that somebody can
  • 01:21:27
    pick it up and work on it so it's not
  • 01:21:29
    one thing it's not one framework it's a
  • 01:21:31
    collection of a lot of principles built
  • 01:21:33
    over a period of time you have to make
  • 01:21:36
    every single service that you write so
  • 01:21:37
    simple that it requires very little
  • 01:21:40
    maintenance automate absolutely
  • 01:21:43
    everything uh that things run on their
  • 01:21:46
    own keep have software engineering
  • 01:21:49
    principles you know architectural
  • 01:21:50
    patterns Etc that help you keep
  • 01:21:54
    everything
  • 01:21:55
    small and simple so we don't have
  • 01:21:56
    microservice heals we don't have dozens
  • 01:21:58
    and dozens and dozens of microservices
  • 01:22:00
    the entire trading and investment
  • 01:22:01
    platform is a collection of probably
  • 01:22:02
    four five Services meaningfully split so
  • 01:22:05
    it's a lot of those practices that come
  • 01:22:08
    together that uh allow a small team to
  • 01:22:11
    build maintain and run large systems and
  • 01:22:15
    this is the same team that runs uh
  • 01:22:18
    installs maintains and runs all kinds of
  • 01:22:20
    internal applications also even our
  • 01:22:22
    employee interet portal where people log
  • 01:22:24
    in and apply for you that's also an open
  • 01:22:26
    source system that we uh maintain in in
  • 01:22:30
    house uh our support ticketing system we
  • 01:22:32
    don't use a SAS in fact we don't use any
  • 01:22:35
    sort of a SAS product for any of these
  • 01:22:37
    things that's also another open source
  • 01:22:38
    system that we install and Main do you
  • 01:22:40
    have teams that manage these internal
  • 01:22:42
    applications as well or is it like more
  • 01:22:44
    shared responsibility there are teams
  • 01:22:47
    but there uh so it's an open source
  • 01:22:49
    system called OS ticket it's a support
  • 01:22:51
    titing system we picked it up in install
  • 01:22:54
    called it 10 years ago it still runs we
  • 01:22:56
    upgrade it once in a while it requires
  • 01:22:57
    so little maintenance that two people
  • 01:22:59
    who are responsible for it they have to
  • 01:23:01
    log in once a year or once a bus wants
  • 01:23:03
    to look at it so you make those choices
  • 01:23:06
    to get Battle tested Technologies you
  • 01:23:10
    don't have a mesh of 100 things that
  • 01:23:12
    talk to each other you have a you have
  • 01:23:13
    five things so you have to simplify your
  • 01:23:16
    you don't use something like yaml or
  • 01:23:18
    sorry nested Yamin Kates so all those
  • 01:23:21
    choices matter
  • 01:23:25
    oh testing is standard you have unit
  • 01:23:28
    tests yeah you have unit tests you have
  • 01:23:31
    integration tests then we get our
  • 01:23:34
    extended support Etc teams to test these
  • 01:23:37
    things there are first beta testers for
  • 01:23:38
    any uh any product release then we also
  • 01:23:42
    release user phasing products on a
  • 01:23:44
    private Forum to selected customers also
  • 01:23:47
    so many layers of automated testing unit
  • 01:23:49
    testing integration testing human
  • 01:23:51
    testing before something actually goes
  • 01:23:53
    right
  • 01:23:57
    not a fan of those labels they're just
  • 01:23:59
    too rigid and they always backfire so
  • 01:24:02
    DDD forces you to think in terms of
  • 01:24:05
    tests which I don't think is a great way
  • 01:24:07
    of doing it yes you need tests but you
  • 01:24:09
    can't think your worldview entire
  • 01:24:11
    worldview can't be test first I that's
  • 01:24:14
    my
  • 01:24:19
    view depends we sometimes feature freeze
  • 01:24:23
    to make an improvement for weeks and
  • 01:24:25
    months also it it's all it all is
  • 01:24:27
    contextual but thankfully in our in our
  • 01:24:30
    industry there's a silver lining uh
  • 01:24:32
    there are aftermarket hours there are
  • 01:24:34
    weekends so a lot of things we reserve
  • 01:24:37
    for weekends so that's the Silver Lining
  • 01:24:39
    we have in this otherwise real time
  • 01:24:41
    industry okay we take two more questions
  • 01:24:44
    one from this row anybody here yeah yeah
  • 01:24:49
    uh go ahead we take two more this is
  • 01:24:52
    rajes there are two I want to share one
  • 01:24:55
    is appreciation for the Zera one
  • 01:24:57
    personal experience I would like to
  • 01:24:58
    share it here last month I just went to
  • 01:25:01
    my bank where I have my salary account
  • 01:25:04
    to open the second trading
  • 01:25:06
    account maybe during the conversation I
  • 01:25:09
    found that one it's taking a lot of time
  • 01:25:12
    comped sitting into the same bank
  • 01:25:15
    reception I just opened the Zer account
  • 01:25:18
    in 12 minutes it is the last month I
  • 01:25:21
    really appreciate the simplicity
  • 01:25:25
    user friendly how exactly a common man
  • 01:25:28
    or whoever it may be having having on
  • 01:25:29
    mobile phone can open the trading
  • 01:25:31
    account only thing I was about to need
  • 01:25:33
    that one white paper some code I need to
  • 01:25:35
    write and make that selfie I really
  • 01:25:37
    appreciate for that thank you second
  • 01:25:39
    thing um I also understand that fors and
  • 01:25:43
    Rain matter you open that foundations
  • 01:25:46
    any thought process why you could not
  • 01:25:48
    able to put it into kind of a Zera
  • 01:25:50
    Foundation which is a more branding
  • 01:25:52
    perspective or maybe user acceptable
  • 01:25:54
    perspective rather than that having the
  • 01:25:56
    two different foundations to support our
  • 01:25:59
    community it's it's it's a choice it's
  • 01:26:03
    by Design it's rain matter Foundation by
  • 01:26:05
    zeroda but uh corporate foundations do
  • 01:26:09
    amazing work but there's a bit of a
  • 01:26:11
    problem there we want all of these
  • 01:26:13
    institutions to have their own identity
  • 01:26:15
    have their own philosophy that really
  • 01:26:17
    permeates from our philosophies we don't
  • 01:26:19
    want everything to be everything we do
  • 01:26:21
    to be tied to a corporate
  • 01:26:25
    at the end of the day we are a
  • 01:26:25
    for-profit corporate entity and we don't
  • 01:26:29
    really know what happens tomorrow so
  • 01:26:32
    it's it's our choice to not mix our
  • 01:26:35
    corporate identity with every other uh
  • 01:26:38
    project that we do especially in the
  • 01:26:39
    social sector but I think people know
  • 01:26:42
    that it's rain matter Foundation by Z
  • 01:26:43
    and that's
  • 01:26:44
    enough and the last maybe you also
  • 01:26:47
    mentioned that this month or next month
  • 01:26:48
    something is going to be given for the
  • 01:26:50
    NGO space perspective for uh something
  • 01:26:53
    you mentioned talk I think a false fund
  • 01:26:56
    okay yeah which can be used by noos to
  • 01:26:59
    have a platform not noos uh it was
  • 01:27:01
    family for open source projects yeah
  • 01:27:05
    Okay cool so there was one question here
  • 01:27:09
    okay somebody pass the mic okay we'll
  • 01:27:13
    come to
  • 01:27:14
    you we'll come to you
  • 01:27:17
    after let let him finish the question
  • 01:27:20
    and then go ahead
  • 01:27:28
    and wow so there are lot ofg in
  • 01:27:33
    Z lot
  • 01:27:37
    ofs so for an open source like Community
  • 01:27:42
    even start
  • 01:27:44
    to what what are
  • 01:27:46
    the you have in mind uh uh like there is
  • 01:27:52
    data related things and uh like lot of
  • 01:27:55
    insights into the
  • 01:27:57
    market so what what criteria do you have
  • 01:28:01
    for integrating
  • 01:28:03
    those so all of the Integrations that
  • 01:28:06
    you see are also startups that we've
  • 01:28:08
    funded so since we launched our rain
  • 01:28:11
    matter Capital Financial Fund in 2016
  • 01:28:14
    and uh this sector this industry didn't
  • 01:28:17
    exist so we've been funding startups to
  • 01:28:20
    create this ecosystem uh of technologies
  • 01:28:22
    that provide value around financial
  • 01:28:24
    markets so uh confidence and trust is a
  • 01:28:29
    is the biggest Factor we can't I mean we
  • 01:28:32
    evaluate it based on that and because
  • 01:28:35
    these are all integration that you see
  • 01:28:36
    are startups that we ourselves have
  • 01:28:37
    funded we've known them from from day
  • 01:28:39
    one and we also have skin in the game so
  • 01:28:43
    the ab the ability to trust that
  • 01:28:46
    integration uh because of the very
  • 01:28:48
    sensitive nature of the entire thing is
  • 01:28:51
    the single biggest Factor
  • 01:28:55
    okay can you pass the mic okay this is
  • 01:28:58
    the last
  • 01:28:59
    question so hey Kash I had a question
  • 01:29:02
    about open source contribution like so
  • 01:29:05
    I'm sure a lot of people would have
  • 01:29:07
    Innovations about like you already
  • 01:29:08
    mentioned about you know maybe lack of
  • 01:29:12
    Competency whether my contribution would
  • 01:29:15
    be good enough or am I good enough to
  • 01:29:18
    contribute or not did you when you were
  • 01:29:20
    starting did you face that or if you did
  • 01:29:24
    how did you like kind of overcome
  • 01:29:28
    it he was contributing while he was a
  • 01:29:30
    teenager so there was less inhibition
  • 01:29:32
    then I think I didn't even my first
  • 01:29:35
    false contributions came when I was 13
  • 01:29:37
    years old I think so I don't think I
  • 01:29:41
    even had that mental markup of maturity
  • 01:29:44
    to even uh think of this like no
  • 01:29:47
    inhibitions and I thought everything I
  • 01:29:49
    was making was the best thing in the
  • 01:29:51
    world plastered it all over the Internet
  • 01:29:53
    that's why I said those so cringe years
  • 01:29:55
    now that I look back at some of the
  • 01:29:57
    things I posted Etc I mean it's but
  • 01:29:59
    that's what a young pre- teenager would
  • 01:30:01
    do so I guess that turned out to be like
  • 01:30:05
    a
  • 01:30:07
    very that turned out to be like a huge
  • 01:30:10
    factor of luck for me that I started out
  • 01:30:12
    in an era where nobody had Innovations
  • 01:30:15
    on the internet you just plaster there's
  • 01:30:16
    no G there's no force was a hacker it
  • 01:30:20
    was a proper hacker space
  • 01:30:21
    sourceforge.net Source yeah
  • 01:30:24
    it still exists still ex that used to be
  • 01:30:26
    the GitHub back then Mercurial there was
  • 01:30:29
    Mercurial yeah yeah so I'm glad I got
  • 01:30:33
    lucky that I that was my mental markup
  • 01:30:35
    and I came from that era and by the time
  • 01:30:37
    I had matured as a developer I I I
  • 01:30:40
    thought I figured was okay you can
  • 01:30:41
    publish whatever yeah um so then what do
  • 01:30:45
    you suggest that one should I mean
  • 01:30:47
    obviously there's you should just put
  • 01:30:50
    it be
  • 01:30:52
    young be pissed
  • 01:30:55
    young pleas please completely so what
  • 01:30:58
    what do you think that any let's say a
  • 01:31:01
    person was spent five seven years in the
  • 01:31:03
    industry what do they think I mean what
  • 01:31:06
    do they what do you suggest they should
  • 01:31:08
    do to come out of that you know that
  • 01:31:10
    shell that okay you're competent enough
  • 01:31:12
    you should do it you should try at least
  • 01:31:15
    you should try that's the only thing no
  • 01:31:17
    amount of lecturing or inspiration will
  • 01:31:19
    work you need to build and break every
  • 01:31:21
    engineer has to build and break and
  • 01:31:23
    learn by trial and error you need to
  • 01:31:25
    public publish projects if they fail
  • 01:31:27
    they fail but you need to keep
  • 01:31:28
    publishing so uh she was asking me
  • 01:31:31
    earlier there's like 50 plus projects
  • 01:31:33
    listed on my website but I was telling
  • 01:31:36
    here telling her there are thousands of
  • 01:31:37
    projects that I haven't listed all the
  • 01:31:39
    tiny little failures over the last two
  • 01:31:41
    plus decades right I I've only published
  • 01:31:43
    listed what I really liked that I was
  • 01:31:45
    proud of but there were countless little
  • 01:31:47
    hacks and projects that have just failed
  • 01:31:49
    so there's a big survivorship bias at
  • 01:31:52
    play there it's not that all my projects
  • 01:31:54
    are you know big most of them are not
  • 01:31:56
    but the ones that did well I've shared
  • 01:31:59
    them uh and lots of projects that I
  • 01:32:01
    published also have just faded away I've
  • 01:32:03
    forgotten about them on the Internet
  • 01:32:05
    doesn't matter I think one other thing
  • 01:32:08
    I'd like to add is that you're most
  • 01:32:10
    likely using a lot of Open Source
  • 01:32:11
    projects within your own team right why
  • 01:32:14
    not look at some of those projects and
  • 01:32:16
    see what they've listed as issues that
  • 01:32:18
    you could take up right things that are
  • 01:32:20
    important to your team um instead of
  • 01:32:22
    waiting for somebody else to do it for
  • 01:32:23
    you
  • 01:32:24
    you could contribute that back find a
  • 01:32:27
    find a teammate you you want to pair
  • 01:32:29
    with or do it independently but I think
  • 01:32:31
    take the plunge there uh there's no
  • 01:32:34
    shortcut to that that's the best place
  • 01:32:37
    to start fixing problems in technologies
  • 01:32:39
    that you can relate to that you're very
  • 01:32:41
    familiar with uh you can't just go pick
  • 01:32:44
    a random project on GitHub and
  • 01:32:45
    contribute because you don't understand
  • 01:32:47
    it so look around you look for problems
  • 01:32:49
    that P see of and solve
  • 01:32:51
    them thank you yeah so I just one last
  • 01:32:55
    question yeah here we'll take the last
  • 01:32:58
    one yeah okay so this Arjun here so I
  • 01:33:01
    just want to know whether zero is
  • 01:33:04
    planning to get into web3 space building
  • 01:33:06
    anything on that no crypto exchange I
  • 01:33:09
    don't like the word web3 I've written a
  • 01:33:11
    blog post saying the entire thing is a
  • 01:33:12
    sham okay web3 is a sham it's dead also
  • 01:33:16
    okay can you elaborate a little bit like
  • 01:33:18
    why it's see web
  • 01:33:20
    3 there's no clear definition for what
  • 01:33:23
    web three even is what is web3 I mean
  • 01:33:26
    who came up with that term right how do
  • 01:33:28
    you where is the clear spec or
  • 01:33:30
    definition is some blockchain here
  • 01:33:32
    there's some NFD there's some token you
  • 01:33:34
    combine all of that suddenly your web
  • 01:33:36
    three it makes no sense so my entire
  • 01:33:39
    view on this whole web3 it's on my
  • 01:33:40
    website there's a full blog post that
  • 01:33:42
    should idly answer your questions and
  • 01:33:44
    it's also been riddled with scam and
  • 01:33:47
    spam and the entire blockchain stuff has
  • 01:33:51
    had now 10 14 years to prove itself
  • 01:33:54
    there are some use cases it's a piece of
  • 01:33:55
    technology at the end of the day this
  • 01:33:57
    whole web3 thing has a huge marketing F
  • 01:33:59
    and where is web3 now I don't even hear
  • 01:34:01
    of it anymore the last 24 months it's
  • 01:34:03
    just filed
  • 01:34:05
    out I'll go through your blog yeah I'll
  • 01:34:08
    piss you
  • 01:34:09
    off I think web3 I felt it was at in
  • 01:34:12
    very early stages just to bring it to
  • 01:34:14
    frusion and there are uh folks who are
  • 01:34:18
    really not uh you know having confidence
  • 01:34:20
    on the fiat currency and looking more
  • 01:34:21
    into a decentralized economy and stuff I
  • 01:34:24
    thought it's very early stages just
  • 01:34:25
    wanted to know your point of view I mean
  • 01:34:28
    yes fiat currency uh foreign Reserve
  • 01:34:31
    centralization these are all large
  • 01:34:33
    problems but blockchain and nfts are not
  • 01:34:37
    really the solution to that it could
  • 01:34:38
    have been but it's been over overrun by
  • 01:34:41
    spammers multi-billion dollar scams FTX
  • 01:34:45
    collapsing was a big deal right so those
  • 01:34:48
    are different sociopolitical discussions
  • 01:34:51
    Fiat versus distributed but I think web3
  • 01:34:54
    blockchain is the solution yeah you
  • 01:34:55
    decentralize the uh the currency along
  • 01:34:59
    with that you decentralize the problems
  • 01:35:00
    too and which government in the world
  • 01:35:03
    would want to lose the power of
  • 01:35:04
    maintaining the currency right it's a
  • 01:35:06
    political problem not a tech problem
  • 01:35:08
    okay thank you cool with that thank you
  • 01:35:12
    very much Kash let's all give him a
  • 01:35:14
    round of applause it was amazing having
  • 01:35:16
    you and uh this a wonderful talking to
  • 01:35:19
    about all the open source stuff I hope
  • 01:35:22
    everybody here and on Zoom sufficiently
  • 01:35:24
    inspired to pick up opest to pick up the
  • 01:35:28
    next uh contribution into the open
  • 01:35:30
    source world thank you all
  • 01:35:33
    thanks thank so much coming down I've
  • 01:35:37
    been following with Kyla for quite a
  • 01:35:39
    long period of time almost two years you
  • 01:35:42
    don't remember to get him to to to a
  • 01:35:46
    venue again thanks for coming
  • 01:35:49
    down we have a
  • 01:35:59
    spelled my name right spell wrong yeah
  • 01:36:02
    just taken care
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