Cintoo's $37M Series B, Reality Capture Market Growth, Partech's Investment Strategy How Cintoo Is

00:52:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhThxx07eYs

概要

TLDREn aquest episodi del podcast Bricks Bucks and Bites, s'exploren diverses notícies significatives dins dels sectors d'arquitectura, enginyeria i construcció. Comença amb una discussió sobre la ronda de finançament sèrie B de 37 milions liderada per Partech Growth per a l'empresa SC 2, que es dedica a la compressió de dades de captures de realitat per a obres de construcció. Es comenta l'augment de les solucions d'escaneig de realitat i les projeccions de mercat per al 2030. Es menciona l'impacte de les eleccions als EUA en la confiança del mercat, amb previsió d'un augment en les IPOs tecnològiques el 2025. També es destaca una reflexió sobre la lògica dels VCs i les seves relacions amb els fundadors, fent èmfasi en la importància de la transparència i la veritat en les interaccions empresarials.

収穫

  • 🎧 Podcast setmanal sobre arquitectura i tecnologia
  • 📊 SC 2 assegura finançament per avançar en tecnologia 3D
  • 🌐 Influència de les eleccions americanes als mercats
  • 🤝 Importància de la transparència en la inversió
  • 🏗️ Creixement del mercat de l'escaneig 3D cap al 2030
  • 🗣️ Discussió sobre el metavers i el seu potencial futur
  • 🎯 Estratègies de VCs en rondes de finançament
  • 🇪🇺 Impacte de les eleccions en l'economia europea
  • 💼 Cas d'estudi sobre la captura de realitat en construcció
  • 📈 Expectatives d'IPOs tecnològiques en els propers anys

タイムライン

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Benvinguts al podcast Bricks, Bucks i Bytes, un lloc per a notícies sobre finançament, mercat i inversió en arquitectura, enginyeria i construcció. Els fundadors de startups i innovadors en AEC trobaran útil el nostre butlletí sobre tecnologia en el sector, incloent-hi AI, robòtica i programari de disseny. Subscriviu-vos a bricksbt.com.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Els presentadors, Patrick i Owen, discuteixen temes d'actualitat en AEC. Owen està de vacances, així que Patrick parla amb el seu convidat sobre viatges recents i experiències culturals. Patrick destaca la seva estada als EUA i la seva gravació d'entrevistes per a un documental amb Edify.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    El podcast tracta sobre Choctaw, una startup que ha aconseguit 37 milions en finançament sèrie B liderats per Partech. Choctaw treballa per reduir la mida dels arxius per a escaneig i dades 3D. La discussió se centra en com això pot afectar el mercat de captura de la realitat, que està en creixement.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Els hostes parlen sobre els antecedents i l'històric de Choctaw, una empresa fundada el 2013. La seva tecnologia ajuda a comprimir dades de núvols de punts per millorar la captació de realitat en sectors com la construcció. El mercat és més favorable ara i Choctaw ha crescut des de la seva fundació.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Es discuteix el mercat de captura de realitat i com ha evolucionat amb noves tecnologies que faciliten l'ús d'eines com núvols de punts. El mercat es projecta per créixer àmpliament, encara que hi ha competència important d'empreses com Hexagon.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Un nou finançament de 37 milions de dòlars liderat per Partech Growth permetrà a Choctaw escalar el seu negoci. Esmenten les estratègies de Partech, que inclouen diversos fons d'inversió, i la possibilitat que part del finançament podria haver assolit fons de fundadors secundaris.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Es debat sobre el paper de Partech Growth en l'estratègia d'inversió a Choctaw, distingint entre finançament primari i secundari. Les estratègies inclouen la compra d'accions als fundadors actuals, ajudant possiblement a reduir les dilucions.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Patrick explica com algunes empreses esdevindran òbvies després de cert creixement, el què permet a inversors genèrics invertir. La informació avantatjosa dels especialistes en tecnologia de construcció pot desaparèixer a mesura que una empresa es fa marcadament viable.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    El podcast toca el tema del 'metavers', amb opinions diverses i poca substància tangible observable actualment. Per ara, no veuen valor significatiu, però no descarten canvis en els propers anys quan la tecnologia pugui madurar.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:52:55

    Un altre tema és la potencial onada d'OPIs (IPO) de tecnologia en els EUA, especialment després d'eleccions clares. Això podria portar a un ressorgiment en confiança de mercat i inversions tant en mercats digitals com tecnològics.

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マインドマップ

ビデオQ&A

  • De què tracta el podcast Bricks Bucks and Bites?

    Tracta sobre notícies de finançament, mercat i inversions en arquitectures, enginyeria, construcció i la cadena de subministrament.

  • Quina empresa va assegurar 37 milions en una ronda de finançament sèrie B?

    SC 2 va assegurar 37 milions en una ronda de finançament sèrie B.

  • Quina és la projecció del mercat de l'escaneig 3D per al 2030?

    Es projecta que el mercat de l'escaneig 3D arribi als 16.7 mil milions per al 2030.

  • Quin és el paper de Partech Growth en la ronda de finançament de SC 2?

    Partech Growth va liderar la ronda de finançament de 37 milions de SC 2.

  • Què discuteixen sobre les eleccions als EUA i el seu impacte en el mercat?

    Discuteixen que després de les eleccions hi ha una sensació de confiança en els mercats que pot impulsar les IPOs tecnològiques el 2025.

  • Quin va ser l'impacte de les eleccions sobre l'economia del Regne Unit?

    Va portar claredat i confiança, augmentant les consultes en el negoci de l'entrevistador.

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    inbox and now for the episode welcome
  • 00:01:01
    everyone and good morning Patrick
  • 00:01:04
    morning sir how are you I'm pretty good
  • 00:01:06
    pretty good Owen is not with us today as
  • 00:01:09
    he took the family on holidays he's back
  • 00:01:11
    in the next few days so there's just two
  • 00:01:14
    of us today yeah but judging by his
  • 00:01:16
    WhatsApp messages he seems to be in a
  • 00:01:19
    mix of enjoying and not enjoying the
  • 00:01:21
    part of the world that he traveled to
  • 00:01:23
    well oh yes yes yes yes yes so that that
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    part are you talking about yeah yeah you
  • 00:01:30
    is an interesting place especially
  • 00:01:31
    nowadays but you traveled recently a lot
  • 00:01:34
    too yeah I like it I like I like duai
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    particularly I've been maybe twice to
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    Abu Dhabi I what I like there is that
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    actually it reminds me of America a
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    little bit from um attitude of people um
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    from this point of view and how people
  • 00:01:51
    want to get stuff done and uh without
  • 00:01:55
    making excuses and just pushing forward
  • 00:01:57
    that's what that's what I like nice yeah
  • 00:02:00
    and then you've you've just come back
  • 00:02:01
    from Boston didn't you yeah we did uh we
  • 00:02:04
    went for to SLE construction to record
  • 00:02:08
    actually maybe eight hours of uh of
  • 00:02:10
    interviews with edify and then boost
  • 00:02:14
    cohort it was very good time actually U
  • 00:02:17
    yeah I love the American vibeage I
  • 00:02:20
    already I already mentioned so yeah very
  • 00:02:22
    good time nice and Boston in November is
  • 00:02:24
    certainly very different experience than
  • 00:02:26
    Boston in January I can tell you yeah
  • 00:02:28
    you know what I was very surprised that
  • 00:02:30
    we actually came and was minus one and
  • 00:02:32
    the next day was plus 20 so that's on
  • 00:02:34
    the on the weather side but it's like a
  • 00:02:36
    ghost town it's it's beautiful but
  • 00:02:38
    there's no one no one in there compared
  • 00:02:40
    to London for example so that was a
  • 00:02:43
    little bit weird um but overall very
  • 00:02:46
    good experience and how was the um uh so
  • 00:02:49
    you guys if I remember correctly you did
  • 00:02:50
    yet another documentary now with with
  • 00:02:52
    edify Dustin's company how was that yeah
  • 00:02:55
    so we did four hours with uh Dustin and
  • 00:02:58
    Mike um and that was brilliant you know
  • 00:03:01
    we've been actually learning this
  • 00:03:03
    estimation space because well all is uh
  • 00:03:05
    involved in estimating me not but um
  • 00:03:08
    well seems like there's no there's a
  • 00:03:11
    bunch of incumbents maybe five five or
  • 00:03:13
    six firms uh which are out there in the
  • 00:03:16
    market and they are leading it uh but
  • 00:03:18
    the the stuff that they are the edify is
  • 00:03:20
    doing is super Innovative and it's kind
  • 00:03:23
    of breaks the status quo in lots of
  • 00:03:26
    areas so um so that's exciting and also
  • 00:03:30
    um Dustin is a great founder so much
  • 00:03:32
    wisdom there so you guys watch out what
  • 00:03:36
    is going to come out of that nice when
  • 00:03:38
    when will that be that will be so we'll
  • 00:03:42
    have it done by the end of this year uh
  • 00:03:45
    but it probably will be released January
  • 00:03:47
    2025 okay marking my calendar okay very
  • 00:03:50
    good all right so let's go back to
  • 00:03:52
    business uh so today we are discussing
  • 00:03:54
    three things uh we have uh funding news
  • 00:03:58
    of SC 2 I guess that's how I should
  • 00:04:01
    pronounce it then we will go into Thrive
  • 00:04:02
    capital and some sentiment in the um I
  • 00:04:07
    don't know Capital markets or like
  • 00:04:09
    that's probably right way of putting it
  • 00:04:11
    and the third one we will have Nico
  • 00:04:14
    Bonos post uh that uh we'll ask Patrick
  • 00:04:18
    to get some comments
  • 00:04:20
    on uh okay so let's start with uh CTO
  • 00:04:24
    secures 37 million in serious B funding
  • 00:04:27
    rant led by partk
  • 00:04:30
    um so I did a little bit of research and
  • 00:04:32
    seems like they are trying they are
  • 00:04:35
    trying to what they are trying to do is
  • 00:04:37
    to
  • 00:04:38
    uh reduce the size of the files uh for
  • 00:04:41
    scanning and for 3D uh
  • 00:04:45
    data um and seems like a I don't know if
  • 00:04:49
    it's called
  • 00:04:50
    infrastructure type of uh application or
  • 00:04:53
    solution um so I just wanted to get your
  • 00:04:56
    thoughts uh about about the product what
  • 00:04:58
    you think about this founding
  • 00:05:00
    um and let's go from there awesome so c
  • 00:05:03
    um I think you got it exactly right in a
  • 00:05:06
    nutshell that's exactly what CNU is um
  • 00:05:08
    but let's set the broader context Martin
  • 00:05:10
    right so the broader context for sinu is
  • 00:05:14
    um reality capture in and around either
  • 00:05:16
    construction sides could also be
  • 00:05:19
    industrial sides um and I believe if I
  • 00:05:21
    remember correctly you could
  • 00:05:23
    theoretically also applies into in an um
  • 00:05:27
    existing building context um though the
  • 00:05:31
    uh frequency at which you capture would
  • 00:05:33
    be way different than from a
  • 00:05:35
    construction side a project at an
  • 00:05:37
    industrial side Etc so that's that's the
  • 00:05:39
    broader context and in that context that
  • 00:05:42
    uh capture of reality has grown a lot I
  • 00:05:45
    I wouldn't call it exploding I think
  • 00:05:46
    that would be a little bit too U uh
  • 00:05:49
    Sensational but it is growing fast these
  • 00:05:52
    past few years um and centu is
  • 00:05:55
    originally it's an 11year old company it
  • 00:05:57
    was founded in in 2013 and I would argue
  • 00:06:00
    that over the first maybe 8 years um of
  • 00:06:03
    their existence the underlying Market
  • 00:06:06
    context wasn't as favorable as it is now
  • 00:06:09
    so that's a very exciting thing here
  • 00:06:10
    potentially for for our good friends
  • 00:06:13
    actually at ptek who led this race um so
  • 00:06:16
    I think the overall Market context for
  • 00:06:18
    them is um much better now than it ever
  • 00:06:20
    was in a firm's history it's favorable
  • 00:06:22
    it's growing Etc and with that comes a
  • 00:06:25
    problem the problem is that every scan
  • 00:06:27
    creates gigabytes in data and in total
  • 00:06:30
    they amount to terabytes of data and
  • 00:06:33
    that data is supposed to be used for
  • 00:06:35
    something you don't capture it only in
  • 00:06:37
    order to capture it you capture it
  • 00:06:38
    because you want to have the is as built
  • 00:06:41
    documentation and ideally you want to
  • 00:06:44
    automate the as buil documentation there
  • 00:06:46
    are players working on that and for a
  • 00:06:48
    while I think sinu has been working on
  • 00:06:50
    that part the the basically the ASU
  • 00:06:53
    comparison as well but their core
  • 00:06:55
    product like you said is about the data
  • 00:06:57
    compression to help people actually do a
  • 00:06:59
    lot of reality capture um in various
  • 00:07:02
    different forms and methods usually
  • 00:07:04
    Point clouds um and compress that data
  • 00:07:06
    in order to build much faster data
  • 00:07:08
    pipelines to do the ASU comparison by
  • 00:07:11
    hand or automated and that's where CNU
  • 00:07:14
    sits um we have spoken first with the
  • 00:07:17
    company in 2019 then again in 2020 when
  • 00:07:20
    um for a firm that age it wasn't very
  • 00:07:22
    advanced in commercial revenue and they
  • 00:07:24
    had just made a Founders switch which is
  • 00:07:27
    never a good time to kind of engage with
  • 00:07:29
    with VCS if your commercial traction is
  • 00:07:32
    a bit behind where you should be and you
  • 00:07:35
    just switched uh out the the original
  • 00:07:37
    founder in this case against an angel so
  • 00:07:40
    an angel investor in syu then became the
  • 00:07:42
    new CEO um oh wow yeah yeah that that
  • 00:07:45
    that's it doesn't happen a lot we have
  • 00:07:47
    seen it a few times in constr um so back
  • 00:07:50
    then it wasn't a good time for us to get
  • 00:07:51
    involved and I think for them also to
  • 00:07:53
    find investors um and then amavi I think
  • 00:07:56
    LED around in 2021
  • 00:07:59
    if I remember
  • 00:08:01
    correctly um and uh and so now they
  • 00:08:05
    raise this uh round with partech growth
  • 00:08:08
    and it's important that it's partch
  • 00:08:10
    growth I'll explain to you hey listeners
  • 00:08:12
    I want to take a quick break to remind
  • 00:08:13
    you about the bricks and bites
  • 00:08:15
    newsletter if you're interested in
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    learning about the technology shaping
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    the future of construction you won't
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    want to miss the valuable insights we
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    share each week to get this exclusive
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    content delivered straight to your inbox
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    head over to www. Bricks by
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    tees.com and sign up today link is in
  • 00:08:33
    the show notes back to the show uh in a
  • 00:08:35
    minute um and of 37 million in order to
  • 00:08:39
    scale the business and from what I can
  • 00:08:41
    see they have grown since the days we
  • 00:08:43
    talked to them to where they are today
  • 00:08:46
    quite nicely and I think that is a
  • 00:08:47
    reflection of a great product good
  • 00:08:49
    leadership good management and an
  • 00:08:52
    underlying Market that is growing mhm uh
  • 00:08:54
    so interesting few questions to that so
  • 00:08:58
    maybe I'll start from you mentioned that
  • 00:09:00
    the underlying Market context wasn't
  • 00:09:02
    favorable back then it is now what is
  • 00:09:06
    that is it there's a more need for
  • 00:09:08
    scanning just simply that or something
  • 00:09:09
    else yeah so um it's more a need for
  • 00:09:12
    scanning and more scanning Solutions
  • 00:09:14
    more advanced scanning Solutions so if
  • 00:09:15
    you remember the episode we did with Mo
  • 00:09:17
    from holobuilder um Mo was basically one
  • 00:09:20
    of the for example solutions to reality
  • 00:09:23
    capture with holobuilder um and and
  • 00:09:25
    besides Hol Builder um a bunch of other
  • 00:09:28
    new tech Solutions came up we we
  • 00:09:30
    discussed if you remember open you had
  • 00:09:31
    Jan here open space doel build dos uh
  • 00:09:35
    Indus AI which is a company that we sold
  • 00:09:37
    to procore um there's um more and more
  • 00:09:41
    companies uh evercam in Ireland uh in
  • 00:09:45
    Germany there are companies that are
  • 00:09:47
    specialized it it's a very very abundant
  • 00:09:51
    sorry it's a space abundant with
  • 00:09:52
    Technology Solutions for reality capture
  • 00:09:54
    and not to forget the incumbents hexagon
  • 00:09:56
    has products for this Rico has products
  • 00:09:59
    for this Etc so as a that's the first
  • 00:10:01
    effect right so as a let's say general
  • 00:10:04
    contractor if you use that example you
  • 00:10:06
    have abundance of choice you can really
  • 00:10:08
    make more informed choices today than
  • 00:10:11
    you could in 2013 or even 15 or 17 so
  • 00:10:15
    that's one and two um overall the space
  • 00:10:19
    of capturing or or working with as buil
  • 00:10:22
    in your Bim model has just matured in
  • 00:10:24
    terms of adoption and process Readiness
  • 00:10:27
    then it was you know maybe 10 or 11
  • 00:10:30
    years ago so that's the second reason
  • 00:10:32
    why the industry is just more able to
  • 00:10:36
    adopt such technology interesting so is
  • 00:10:39
    it like infrastructure type of service
  • 00:10:41
    that they would provide uh that my very
  • 00:10:43
    lame understanding of it that's my
  • 00:10:45
    understanding as well I think that's
  • 00:10:46
    what they are today selling okay
  • 00:10:48
    interesting I like that because it's an
  • 00:10:50
    offshoot of something else growing and
  • 00:10:52
    then they they are able to uh provide
  • 00:10:54
    for these people like that okay as so I
  • 00:10:57
    research and what they uh what I found
  • 00:11:00
    is that um the 3D uh scanning Market is
  • 00:11:03
    projected to reach 16.7 billion by
  • 00:11:08
    20130
  • 00:11:10
    um do you have a SIM well maybe I will
  • 00:11:15
    ask that so do you have companies which
  • 00:11:18
    do similar thing uh to sinu uh and if
  • 00:11:22
    yes did you assess them based on this
  • 00:11:25
    kind of projection of the growing market
  • 00:11:28
    and uh total addressable Market perhaps
  • 00:11:31
    as well um so not something currently in
  • 00:11:34
    the reality capture or the um data
  • 00:11:37
    infrastructure data processing for Point
  • 00:11:39
    clouds not currently we used to have
  • 00:11:41
    Indus AI like I said we sold that to
  • 00:11:43
    procore um at a good profit and I looked
  • 00:11:47
    at a Finnish company last year called
  • 00:11:50
    Lumi DB Lui DB which is roughly in the
  • 00:11:55
    same space um we felt good about Lumi in
  • 00:11:58
    the end didn't move forward forward with
  • 00:11:59
    it but that's a company I'm I'm
  • 00:12:01
    continuing to track however the um 500b
  • 00:12:05
    gorilla in the space is hexagon you you
  • 00:12:07
    cannot dismiss hexagon because hexagon
  • 00:12:09
    has similar Solutions inhouse farro has
  • 00:12:12
    Solutions like that so this is a space
  • 00:12:15
    where um usually as a VC when I hear
  • 00:12:19
    data infrastructure I typically listen
  • 00:12:21
    two three or more times my ears prop up
  • 00:12:24
    in the digital twin space for data
  • 00:12:27
    infrastructure for the real
  • 00:12:29
    world I always have to make a case to
  • 00:12:32
    myself how faroh hexagon and let's say
  • 00:12:36
    two degree even Trimble don't have that
  • 00:12:39
    solution inous already you have to show
  • 00:12:41
    me a vastly differentiated technology um
  • 00:12:46
    so that's something I would always keep
  • 00:12:47
    my eyes open for interesting I was
  • 00:12:50
    listening a few days ago a podcast and
  • 00:12:53
    uh my favorite one V not kosla said
  • 00:12:55
    something that they invested in tcpip
  • 00:12:57
    protocol when he was in CL cler perkings
  • 00:13:00
    or somethingone like that uh and um kind
  • 00:13:04
    of no one wanted to change the um
  • 00:13:07
    current status quo in terms of the
  • 00:13:09
    infrastructure or how internet was going
  • 00:13:11
    and they saw that being a a future um
  • 00:13:15
    and uh yeah that was interesting like
  • 00:13:18
    how how people can spot this uh future
  • 00:13:20
    Trends uh which are infrastructure um
  • 00:13:24
    Trends uh how how do you view it well I
  • 00:13:27
    think the comparison here here um is
  • 00:13:30
    tilted much more in favor of a Internet
  • 00:13:34
    Protocol than an industrial protocol and
  • 00:13:37
    and by the way CNU is not a protocol but
  • 00:13:39
    but I get your I get your comparison but
  • 00:13:41
    just just to get it clear it's not a
  • 00:13:42
    protocol um but the reason why it's
  • 00:13:44
    slightly tilt or actually massively
  • 00:13:46
    tilted in favor of the tcpip example is
  • 00:13:49
    because the user base is highly
  • 00:13:51
    fragmented and highly Tech competent so
  • 00:13:54
    you're selling them a better solution to
  • 00:13:56
    use that c that their technology and and
  • 00:13:59
    engineering capabilities um to do
  • 00:14:01
    something they can adopt on a micro
  • 00:14:04
    level for their self in a case like cinu
  • 00:14:08
    you won't have a ton of Highly technical
  • 00:14:11
    users and these highly technical users
  • 00:14:13
    will need other approvals or need to
  • 00:14:15
    make it work with other processes that
  • 00:14:17
    they don't have influence over so the
  • 00:14:19
    adoption rate is is a much much
  • 00:14:21
    different one compared to trying to uh
  • 00:14:23
    in in the whatever 1980s or when it was
  • 00:14:26
    uh implement the tcpip protocol starting
  • 00:14:29
    with you know software developers mm
  • 00:14:31
    okay thank you for that so let's touch
  • 00:14:33
    base on the round itself so it was led
  • 00:14:38
    by part Tech uh and there was also
  • 00:14:41
    existing investors amavi capital and
  • 00:14:44
    arar Venture
  • 00:14:46
    Partners uh as far as I'm aware partch
  • 00:14:50
    is not uh construction Tech
  • 00:14:54
    specialist yes um I feels like it's a
  • 00:14:58
    quite a big run but that's just my
  • 00:15:00
    feeling 37 million led by non um
  • 00:15:04
    construction Tech specific uh VC what
  • 00:15:07
    are your thoughts here right so um let
  • 00:15:10
    me give a disclaimer a preface Martin
  • 00:15:13
    everything I'm about to say in the next
  • 00:15:14
    minute or two is speculation I I have no
  • 00:15:17
    Insight I haven't talked to again PK are
  • 00:15:19
    very good friends of mine but I haven't
  • 00:15:21
    talked to them here also AR amavi
  • 00:15:24
    irregularly with shed I also haven't
  • 00:15:26
    sheded to him about this everything is
  • 00:15:28
    speculated that I'm about to say and it
  • 00:15:30
    could be absolutely untrue let me first
  • 00:15:32
    give you context about PK so park is
  • 00:15:35
    actually one of the world's oldest VC
  • 00:15:37
    firms it's a 40 plus year old VC firm
  • 00:15:40
    today headquartered in France but
  • 00:15:42
    actually it originated in San Francisco
  • 00:15:44
    it was founded in San Francisco 40
  • 00:15:46
    something years ago um and it still has
  • 00:15:50
    uh us office um
  • 00:15:52
    Etc so it's a very revered and
  • 00:15:55
    successful uh VC firm the way it is
  • 00:15:59
    structured is it's not unique but it is
  • 00:16:03
    uncommon compared to how other VC firms
  • 00:16:05
    structure themselves paltech has a seed
  • 00:16:08
    strategy it has a series a strategy and
  • 00:16:11
    it has a growth strategy and seed
  • 00:16:14
    seriesa and growth all have different
  • 00:16:18
    funds and they have different investment
  • 00:16:21
    committees and that is important in this
  • 00:16:23
    case because the investment here came
  • 00:16:24
    from the growth fund and not from the
  • 00:16:27
    seed and series a fund the growth fund
  • 00:16:30
    the as far as I can tell is a fund that
  • 00:16:34
    um plays a multiple game that means that
  • 00:16:38
    in growth rounds you're not saying hey I
  • 00:16:41
    expect you necessarily to be a
  • 00:16:44
    unicorn um I don't need you to play
  • 00:16:46
    Power law for me um but I need you to
  • 00:16:50
    deliver a steady x times return after
  • 00:16:54
    dilution as far as I can tell that's
  • 00:16:56
    what partic Ross does as far as I can
  • 00:16:58
    tell from other Investments that I know
  • 00:17:01
    that partk growth has done they
  • 00:17:04
    typically shoot for 2 and A2 to 3x at
  • 00:17:07
    least if it's more years or in 10 years
  • 00:17:09
    or or great question so no probably not
  • 00:17:13
    so this I'm not knowing but typically if
  • 00:17:16
    you shoot for 2 and a half to 3x you
  • 00:17:18
    would shoot for something 3 to 5 years
  • 00:17:21
    to an exit because that gives you the 20
  • 00:17:24
    plus something uh IR that you want right
  • 00:17:27
    so that that would be um considered a
  • 00:17:30
    good Venture fund um that wouldn't be
  • 00:17:32
    top desile or anything but that would be
  • 00:17:34
    good that's investable right so now you
  • 00:17:37
    go in with that in order to get that out
  • 00:17:40
    of a company like CNU again I'm
  • 00:17:43
    speculating um you probably need to get
  • 00:17:45
    cinu to 20 million in AR right now
  • 00:17:50
    they're so I know their numbers I will
  • 00:17:52
    not share them but they are not yet at
  • 00:17:53
    20 million ARR um but I think they can
  • 00:17:56
    get there in three to five years and I
  • 00:17:59
    even think they can probably get there
  • 00:18:00
    in three to four years is my personal um
  • 00:18:03
    outside in uh observation um so now
  • 00:18:07
    partch growth does one thing they need
  • 00:18:09
    ownership because they need to put
  • 00:18:11
    relatively large checks to work they
  • 00:18:14
    need to make the Assumption hey at 20
  • 00:18:16
    million AR how much can I sell you for
  • 00:18:19
    many people will say maybe 10x AR that
  • 00:18:22
    could be plus or minus um so maybe I can
  • 00:18:25
    sell you for 200 to 300 million again
  • 00:18:28
    I'm spe
  • 00:18:30
    outside um and so I need to put a lot of
  • 00:18:34
    money to work because I'm a gross fund
  • 00:18:36
    and by definition I write much less
  • 00:18:38
    checks much fewer checks by a lot of
  • 00:18:40
    money to work you mean this 37 million
  • 00:18:42
    investment or something like that
  • 00:18:44
    exactly right um and
  • 00:18:48
    typically again not specific to CNU a
  • 00:18:51
    fund like part grow would make it a mix
  • 00:18:54
    of primary and secondary so primary is
  • 00:18:57
    the company Issues new shares and you
  • 00:18:59
    buy direct shares in the company and the
  • 00:19:01
    company receives the money a secondary
  • 00:19:04
    is an existing shareholder often times a
  • 00:19:06
    Founder sells their shares so the
  • 00:19:08
    company doesn't get the money but the
  • 00:19:10
    founder or the other shareholder gets
  • 00:19:12
    the money and typically a fund like
  • 00:19:13
    partch row in a strategy like this would
  • 00:19:16
    make it a mix of primary and secondary
  • 00:19:18
    so the 37 million again that is
  • 00:19:22
    speculation might not be money that only
  • 00:19:24
    CNU has received it might be a mix of
  • 00:19:27
    hey maybe a portion of that was received
  • 00:19:30
    by the by the company to grow I'm I'm
  • 00:19:32
    pretty sure at you know that is the case
  • 00:19:35
    and potentially another part of the
  • 00:19:37
    funding went to the founders which for a
  • 00:19:39
    founding team that has been 11 years in
  • 00:19:41
    is a completely rational thing to do and
  • 00:19:44
    and it is very fair like sh and I
  • 00:19:46
    recently talked about it on practical
  • 00:19:48
    nerds how you can make Arguments for uh
  • 00:19:52
    secondaries to make the for for Founders
  • 00:19:54
    that have been at the company for a long
  • 00:19:56
    time to reer write another era of growth
  • 00:20:00
    and a larger outcome so my speculation
  • 00:20:03
    here is you know I I know partk growth I
  • 00:20:05
    know these strategies it's probably in
  • 00:20:08
    my mind a mix of primary and secondary
  • 00:20:10
    part of it went to the company to grow
  • 00:20:12
    part of it went to the founders and that
  • 00:20:14
    way Park can underwrite a relatively
  • 00:20:17
    large check for a company you know
  • 00:20:20
    perhaps to be exited um north of 200
  • 00:20:23
    million not necessarily a unicorn that's
  • 00:20:26
    again not saying that's not the case
  • 00:20:28
    here I'm just saying that's typically
  • 00:20:29
    typical of such a strategy um and then
  • 00:20:32
    that way you get substantial ownership
  • 00:20:36
    and you reduce the dilution for the
  • 00:20:38
    company because normally and that's the
  • 00:20:40
    final Point here Martin when someone
  • 00:20:42
    reads a 37 million series B they will
  • 00:20:45
    say Okay serus B maybe 15% dilution so
  • 00:20:50
    it could be like 200 pre Etc I'm saying
  • 00:20:53
    that's not what it was that's my
  • 00:20:55
    speculation I'm saying the dilution only
  • 00:20:57
    happened on the primary portion which
  • 00:20:59
    let's say was half of it right and the
  • 00:21:03
    other half maybe was was secondary so um
  • 00:21:06
    it could be and part growth typically
  • 00:21:10
    wants a relatively large
  • 00:21:12
    ownership so so that means that this
  • 00:21:16
    company was potentially valued far below
  • 00:21:19
    what you would typically guesstimate to
  • 00:21:21
    be a 37 million round just because of
  • 00:21:24
    the strategy that you are following
  • 00:21:25
    doesn't take anything away from the
  • 00:21:26
    company but I'm trying to provide
  • 00:21:29
    context here how to read such
  • 00:21:31
    announcements yeah so without the SEC uh
  • 00:21:35
    so so we so you are speculating that
  • 00:21:37
    there some primary and secondary but so
  • 00:21:39
    without the secondary that you think
  • 00:21:41
    that wouldn't
  • 00:21:45
    happen so I'm privy to to where the
  • 00:21:49
    company stands in terms of scale and no
  • 00:21:51
    I think where where it is in terms of
  • 00:21:54
    scale that probably would value the
  • 00:21:56
    company too highly
  • 00:21:59
    understand so I I think I get a feeling
  • 00:22:01
    of uh of this now so second um speaking
  • 00:22:06
    of this secondary shares or secondary
  • 00:22:08
    what's the name of secondary purchase
  • 00:22:10
    secondary shares secondary purchase um
  • 00:22:12
    is it in general a way to boost or
  • 00:22:14
    motivate Founders U to the green so
  • 00:22:18
    that's a rabbit hole now um I I'm really
  • 00:22:20
    sorry this is not Shameless plug but go
  • 00:22:21
    go to our practical nerds episode 48 or
  • 00:22:24
    49 sh and I talked for an hour just
  • 00:22:27
    about secondaries but the the tldr is
  • 00:22:29
    Martin there are different reasons why
  • 00:22:32
    you should do a secondary or why you
  • 00:22:34
    should not do a secondary and there's a
  • 00:22:36
    bull case and there's a be case um I
  • 00:22:40
    will not reveal my position on this
  • 00:22:42
    because I don't want Founders to reverse
  • 00:22:43
    engineer my thinking but I will say
  • 00:22:46
    there are bull arguments and there are
  • 00:22:47
    bare arguments sounds good let's go to
  • 00:22:50
    practicalness episode
  • 00:22:53
    4849 we'll find out
  • 00:22:55
    more um okay uh one more question on
  • 00:23:00
    because that seemed to be quite
  • 00:23:01
    interesting when you mentioned that the
  • 00:23:03
    angel became a Founder uh or replace the
  • 00:23:08
    founder was it to well obviously I don't
  • 00:23:11
    know how you know or how much you can
  • 00:23:13
    speculate on this is this typically the
  • 00:23:15
    case where Angel replaces the founder
  • 00:23:19
    because the found existing founder is
  • 00:23:21
    not as great in their job or they and
  • 00:23:23
    they are trying to save the business
  • 00:23:25
    that I they have like vested interest as
  • 00:23:27
    an angel
  • 00:23:29
    or or that's that might be completely
  • 00:23:30
    different uh different scenario that's
  • 00:23:33
    difficult to answer for me Martin um so
  • 00:23:35
    because in the case of sinu I'm actually
  • 00:23:37
    not privy to to that I don't know how it
  • 00:23:39
    came to it we only got to inter act um
  • 00:23:42
    once Dominique um replaced the former
  • 00:23:45
    founder CEO um because when we first
  • 00:23:48
    talked the company was already five
  • 00:23:49
    years five years old and and that had
  • 00:23:51
    just happened um so I don't know what
  • 00:23:53
    led to it um so in the case of cinu I I
  • 00:23:56
    cannot comment to it if your question is
  • 00:23:58
    more General I I I don't think I have a
  • 00:24:00
    general um pattern here I I think
  • 00:24:04
    there's very different reasons why it
  • 00:24:07
    sometimes happens um usually a shakeup
  • 00:24:11
    like
  • 00:24:13
    that is hard to make a case that it's a
  • 00:24:17
    good thing at first it can turn out to
  • 00:24:20
    be a good thing and I think in the case
  • 00:24:22
    of C to that is proven because the
  • 00:24:23
    company has grown very well these past
  • 00:24:26
    few years it has a terrific product um
  • 00:24:28
    you you really have to to work with it
  • 00:24:30
    to appreciate it it's a it's a very very
  • 00:24:32
    good product um obviously well managed
  • 00:24:35
    these past few years so it can turn out
  • 00:24:38
    to be a good thing but the moment it
  • 00:24:40
    happens it never feels like a good thing
  • 00:24:43
    so that that's pretty tough to swallow
  • 00:24:44
    for everyone the founders the
  • 00:24:46
    shareholders Etc and every case is
  • 00:24:49
    specific okay I will ask ask last last
  • 00:24:52
    one question on the on the round which
  • 00:24:55
    is why why we don't have uh specialist
  • 00:24:59
    investors investing in this growth
  • 00:25:02
    rounds for example in construction Tech
  • 00:25:04
    that is a very very good question Martin
  • 00:25:07
    um and one that I have a strong thesis
  • 00:25:09
    on um so it has to do with when
  • 00:25:13
    companies become obvious um we always
  • 00:25:16
    talk at fundamental about hidden in
  • 00:25:18
    spite of obvious
  • 00:25:21
    opportunities right and you remember
  • 00:25:23
    that one right so um that means that
  • 00:25:26
    some opportunities in nuance quirky
  • 00:25:28
    markets which ours might be the most
  • 00:25:31
    nuanced and most quirky architecture
  • 00:25:33
    engineering construction and its Supply
  • 00:25:35
    chains you can find generational
  • 00:25:38
    opportunities by looking under a million
  • 00:25:40
    rocks and appreciating those quirks but
  • 00:25:44
    that is not possible by pattern
  • 00:25:46
    recognition you can't do that by saying
  • 00:25:48
    hey I saw this in that market and Ergo I
  • 00:25:50
    should find it in construction it it
  • 00:25:52
    rarely leads to Glory it rarely leads to
  • 00:25:55
    generational outcomes and a famous
  • 00:25:58
    example of that is how people realize
  • 00:26:00
    that SAS should not be the default
  • 00:26:02
    initial model for companies it could
  • 00:26:04
    actually be outcome as a service um that
  • 00:26:07
    that's due to the idiosyncrasies and and
  • 00:26:10
    works of construction so that allows you
  • 00:26:13
    to to spot hidden in spite of obvious
  • 00:26:15
    when companies are not obvious yet to
  • 00:26:17
    the generic people but they are obvious
  • 00:26:19
    to the Insiders so hidden to the
  • 00:26:21
    generics obvious to the inside now here
  • 00:26:24
    comes the flip at some point the company
  • 00:26:27
    has so much traction has so much product
  • 00:26:30
    so much customer love so much validation
  • 00:26:32
    on distribution that it has just matured
  • 00:26:35
    to obviousness to generic people that
  • 00:26:38
    can be a series a round sometimes it can
  • 00:26:40
    be a series B round like in cnu's case
  • 00:26:43
    and at that point the generic investors
  • 00:26:46
    have no disadvantage anymore at that
  • 00:26:48
    point when it is obvious it's obvious
  • 00:26:52
    and so you don't need any knowledge of
  • 00:26:54
    the quirks in order to appreciate it you
  • 00:26:56
    have other signals that you can use in
  • 00:26:58
    the business as I said traction
  • 00:27:00
    distribution Etc product um to to judge
  • 00:27:05
    that it is a very good and very good
  • 00:27:08
    company with lots of potential left and
  • 00:27:10
    at that point because that um
  • 00:27:12
    information Advantage for the specialist
  • 00:27:15
    vanishes the capital Advantage for
  • 00:27:18
    someone that has a lot of capital under
  • 00:27:19
    management becomes more dominant and
  • 00:27:22
    that's why I think personally that you
  • 00:27:24
    don't see uh construction Tech growth
  • 00:27:26
    funds necess neily have a huge
  • 00:27:30
    information advantage over generic funds
  • 00:27:32
    now just to be clear Martin last
  • 00:27:34
    sentence I do think that there is a
  • 00:27:36
    space for construction Tech growth funds
  • 00:27:39
    in the future but the edge is not an
  • 00:27:41
    information Edge
  • 00:27:43
    anymore
  • 00:27:46
    interesting what will have to happen for
  • 00:27:49
    um for these uh growth funds in
  • 00:27:52
    construction specialized growth funds in
  • 00:27:54
    construction Tech to to become a reality
  • 00:27:58
    um in my opinion the best strategy to do
  • 00:28:01
    that it has to do with uh having access
  • 00:28:04
    so in our portfolio let let me give you
  • 00:28:06
    a very practical example because it's
  • 00:28:08
    very public and known so infam Market is
  • 00:28:10
    filing for its IPO currently the firm is
  • 00:28:13
    at about 3 billion uh of annualized
  • 00:28:15
    Revenue um it's obvious to everyone that
  • 00:28:18
    it's an an amazing company it's as
  • 00:28:20
    obvious as hey let's file for an IPO and
  • 00:28:23
    get as broad a capital base as possible
  • 00:28:26
    from highly professional investors
  • 00:28:28
    nevertheless the company only has four
  • 00:28:30
    or five shareholders and fundamental was
  • 00:28:32
    one of the earliest ones now we have
  • 00:28:35
    access or had access to continue pouring
  • 00:28:38
    money into the company but the the
  • 00:28:40
    company has not brought on NEP new
  • 00:28:42
    investors from outside because why
  • 00:28:43
    should it it has terrific execution and
  • 00:28:47
    the existing cap table had enough
  • 00:28:49
    capitalization to keep pouring into it
  • 00:28:51
    so at that point your access into the
  • 00:28:54
    best companies from the early days of
  • 00:28:56
    the company is true advantage pouring
  • 00:28:58
    gross Capital into it whereas using
  • 00:29:01
    gross Capital to buy into net new
  • 00:29:03
    relationships in construction check
  • 00:29:05
    that's better done for a generic
  • 00:29:06
    investor okay got it all right last more
  • 00:29:09
    last one question on uh SC 2 I've got uh
  • 00:29:12
    is um so they are part of this money
  • 00:29:17
    will be spent to accelerate its Ai and
  • 00:29:21
    here is the point metaverse efforts okay
  • 00:29:24
    so I'll skip term uh I'll I'll skip but
  • 00:29:28
    I'm very curious about your thoughts on
  • 00:29:30
    the metaverse efforts right now where we
  • 00:29:34
    have again crypto currency is booming
  • 00:29:37
    metaverse is actually reminding me of
  • 00:29:39
    the of the crypto space so is it there
  • 00:29:42
    is is there any substance that you
  • 00:29:44
    seeing there in terms of metaverse uh or
  • 00:29:47
    that's just some offsho that they are
  • 00:29:49
    trying to go into and that might not
  • 00:29:51
    necessarily be um lucrative thanks for
  • 00:29:55
    asking the question the way you did so
  • 00:29:57
    no I don't see substance in the
  • 00:29:58
    metaverse just yet it doesn't mean keep
  • 00:30:00
    in mind one thing the VC's job is not to
  • 00:30:03
    make predictions our job is just to
  • 00:30:04
    observe so my observation right now is
  • 00:30:07
    no I don't see substance in the
  • 00:30:09
    metaverse but that's the point of
  • 00:30:11
    Technology um it can be a different case
  • 00:30:14
    in two years down the line so maybe in
  • 00:30:15
    two years my answer is hey now I observe
  • 00:30:18
    substance in the metaverse right now
  • 00:30:20
    2024 I don't
  • 00:30:22
    and um I would say the whole web three
  • 00:30:28
    that happened in late 2020 and
  • 00:30:30
    throughout
  • 00:30:31
    2021 my God was that a fraudulent Market
  • 00:30:34
    unbelievable speculative I would say
  • 00:30:37
    sorry come again I would say
  • 00:30:39
    speculative yeah unbelievable very
  • 00:30:42
    speculative yes yeah okay anything else
  • 00:30:45
    on C to it's a great company um
  • 00:30:50
    and I think if you're not working with
  • 00:30:52
    them you should give them a serious look
  • 00:30:53
    and also congratulations to ARA at amavi
  • 00:30:56
    this um you know it it serves the
  • 00:30:58
    company very very well this
  • 00:31:00
    round okay very good let's move on to uh
  • 00:31:05
    to the next one
  • 00:31:07
    so um so we started chatting about um
  • 00:31:11
    the fact that perhaps um us so us
  • 00:31:15
    elections are by this time sorted and
  • 00:31:17
    seems like the last uh week week and a
  • 00:31:20
    half week actually uh the markets have
  • 00:31:22
    been have been booming being very
  • 00:31:24
    positive about what happened U and I
  • 00:31:27
    wanted to GA your thoughts on what it
  • 00:31:29
    means to uh construction Tech investor
  • 00:31:33
    and you brought up this uh example so
  • 00:31:37
    let's elaborate so trive capital is in
  • 00:31:40
    talks to invest around 1 billion in uh
  • 00:31:43
    data bricks how how should we interpret
  • 00:31:47
    that so the reason why I brought this
  • 00:31:49
    forward Martin as an example is um so
  • 00:31:52
    this literally from this morning um they
  • 00:31:55
    are proposing a deal at about a 55
  • 00:31:58
    billion pre-money valuation the round
  • 00:32:01
    size is less important here 1 billion
  • 00:32:02
    round size is very minimal dilution um
  • 00:32:05
    obviously uh at this stage round about
  • 00:32:08
    what is that 2% maybe um so the round
  • 00:32:11
    side is not that important but the
  • 00:32:12
    valuation is because if you put it in
  • 00:32:14
    the context of data bricks ARR
  • 00:32:17
    annualized recurring Revenue the ARR
  • 00:32:20
    currently is at about 2.5 billion ARR um
  • 00:32:25
    and that means that this is an AR
  • 00:32:27
    multiply of above 20x about
  • 00:32:30
    22x uh if if the 2.5 million ER are that
  • 00:32:33
    were reported and rumored is correct so
  • 00:32:35
    about
  • 00:32:36
    22x now that signals something because
  • 00:32:40
    22x is very rarely how you would get
  • 00:32:44
    valued in the public markets for a
  • 00:32:47
    software business now data bricks is a
  • 00:32:49
    little bit more infrastructure than
  • 00:32:51
    software and that can sometimes help you
  • 00:32:53
    with the AR multiple but there are also
  • 00:32:55
    examples in the public markets where it
  • 00:32:57
    was actually punished for that um most
  • 00:33:00
    investors at this stage would not
  • 00:33:03
    believe that long-term longterm you can
  • 00:33:06
    maintain a 22x ARR multiple for a
  • 00:33:09
    business like this in the public markets
  • 00:33:12
    unless you're generating a lot of cash
  • 00:33:15
    then the multiple could be closer to
  • 00:33:18
    this and not necessarily this but closer
  • 00:33:20
    to this now the question is is data
  • 00:33:22
    bricks making money or burning money I
  • 00:33:24
    don't know that right now let's assume
  • 00:33:27
    it's burning money
  • 00:33:29
    um for a moment and then I'll come to
  • 00:33:30
    the other case if it's burning money
  • 00:33:33
    right now then most likely the uh
  • 00:33:35
    long-term public markets valuation is
  • 00:33:38
    far below
  • 00:33:39
    22x that would signal in that scenario
  • 00:33:43
    that would signal that thrive is betting
  • 00:33:46
    that there's an IPO in the next 12
  • 00:33:49
    months maybe 18 months if data bricks is
  • 00:33:54
    uh printing cash it's profitable and
  • 00:33:56
    it's generating cash
  • 00:33:58
    um it could still signal the same thing
  • 00:34:00
    that thrive things here can be an IPO
  • 00:34:02
    but it could also be in that case that
  • 00:34:05
    it's more of a long-term holding
  • 00:34:06
    investment because they think that hey
  • 00:34:08
    potentially if they keep growing a
  • 00:34:09
    little bit and they keep printing cash
  • 00:34:11
    it might actually be closer to this
  • 00:34:13
    multiple in the long-term valuation and
  • 00:34:15
    then this is a value investment not a
  • 00:34:17
    narrative investment I'm not privy to
  • 00:34:20
    the to the uh profit and cash uh
  • 00:34:22
    generation of data bricks currently um
  • 00:34:25
    but if it is the first then this is a
  • 00:34:28
    clear signal that thrive expects pended
  • 00:34:32
    a thriving IPO Market in the next year
  • 00:34:34
    and I have a secondary data point here
  • 00:34:36
    that makes me believe that um so someone
  • 00:34:39
    in the foundamental family recently had
  • 00:34:42
    a as recently as a few days ago had a
  • 00:34:44
    call with one of the world's largest and
  • 00:34:47
    most reputed investment
  • 00:34:49
    banks that investment Bank told that
  • 00:34:53
    foundamental family member hey and and
  • 00:34:56
    that call happened right after the Trump
  • 00:34:57
    election MH now we think there will be a
  • 00:35:00
    flurry of tech IPOs in the US in
  • 00:35:05
    2025 those two data points together tell
  • 00:35:08
    me that cash is abundant again and
  • 00:35:09
    Thrive is betting on a tech IPO of data
  • 00:35:12
    bricks mhm interesting is it not like
  • 00:35:16
    very spec speculative
  • 00:35:18
    again that the cand candidates are
  • 00:35:21
    sorted now you know who is taking the
  • 00:35:24
    office and uh suddenly like
  • 00:35:28
    more confidence and can this become a
  • 00:35:31
    bubble or or is it or is it as it should
  • 00:35:34
    be uh okay so there's a few questions in
  • 00:35:37
    there so let let me just take the
  • 00:35:39
    speculative and the bubble part so
  • 00:35:41
    speculative so first principle Martin
  • 00:35:43
    speculative is only when you don't have
  • 00:35:46
    um benefit of foresight when you don't
  • 00:35:49
    have benefit of future information the
  • 00:35:52
    founder of Thrive is Josh kushna do you
  • 00:35:56
    remember the kushna name
  • 00:35:58
    uh Kushner Kushner Kushner uh no remind
  • 00:36:02
    me so the other Kushner is the
  • 00:36:03
    son-in-law of Mr
  • 00:36:06
    Trump okay so I'm not I'm not saying
  • 00:36:10
    that they have any political
  • 00:36:11
    affiliations here or that that there is
  • 00:36:13
    benefit of foresight uh Etc but it might
  • 00:36:17
    Thrive is a very successful uh firm um
  • 00:36:20
    one of the most high performant Venture
  • 00:36:23
    funds of that scale uh in the US um and
  • 00:36:27
    it has a terrific track record and I can
  • 00:36:29
    only assume it has a terrific Network as
  • 00:36:31
    well so when someone like me has
  • 00:36:33
    discussions with these big investment
  • 00:36:35
    Banks and they tell me their uh their
  • 00:36:37
    estimation that there will be a bunch of
  • 00:36:39
    tech IPOs next year just imagine what
  • 00:36:41
    someone like Josh here would have in
  • 00:36:43
    terms of these kinds of conversations so
  • 00:36:45
    overall he's collecting probably data
  • 00:36:47
    points to make up his mind whether he
  • 00:36:48
    thinks there will be IPOs or not and the
  • 00:36:51
    more benefit of that foresight you can
  • 00:36:53
    have the less speculative it is that
  • 00:36:56
    you're doing so that's on the spec
  • 00:36:57
    cative part on the bubble part look uh
  • 00:37:00
    economies are always booming and busting
  • 00:37:04
    there is no steady growth in economies
  • 00:37:07
    and that has to do because the economy
  • 00:37:09
    is always human sentiment um what I
  • 00:37:12
    value an asset today and what I value an
  • 00:37:14
    asset tomorrow is completely subjective
  • 00:37:17
    sentiment and that sentiment in the age
  • 00:37:19
    of social media and in the age of um
  • 00:37:23
    hyperf frequency trading is constantly
  • 00:37:26
    manipulated so that obviously leads to
  • 00:37:29
    constant boom and bus Cycles so um is it
  • 00:37:32
    a bubble at some point yes but I don't
  • 00:37:35
    know if that's a bubble right now or
  • 00:37:36
    next year no that's fair that's fair on
  • 00:37:39
    this on the IPO think I think JD V if I
  • 00:37:43
    remember correctly is vice president and
  • 00:37:46
    I listened to I think it was a all in
  • 00:37:49
    podcast that uh these guys are hoping uh
  • 00:37:53
    and there is a in the industry there is
  • 00:37:55
    a feeling that uh if he at that time it
  • 00:37:58
    was that if he becomes a vice president
  • 00:38:02
    then there will be lots of lots of ipets
  • 00:38:05
    probably uh I'm hearing it's from
  • 00:38:07
    different different Avenues so seems
  • 00:38:10
    like might be something in
  • 00:38:11
    it
  • 00:38:13
    um okay uh do you think that this uh
  • 00:38:16
    well I guess positive news for in the US
  • 00:38:19
    is going to spill over uh to Europe in
  • 00:38:22
    any good way who there's so many VCS
  • 00:38:27
    engaged in in political conversation um
  • 00:38:30
    and it REM as I said to you in the
  • 00:38:32
    pre-brief it reminds me of the co days
  • 00:38:34
    when everybody thought entitled to have
  • 00:38:37
    an opinion on a scientific matter I
  • 00:38:39
    don't feel entitled to give my opinion
  • 00:38:42
    on Politics on the public platform there
  • 00:38:44
    are people far more doesn't mean I don't
  • 00:38:46
    have an opinion I do but it also doesn't
  • 00:38:49
    mean that I'm qualified to use my
  • 00:38:51
    platform to tell other people what I
  • 00:38:53
    think they should think about this
  • 00:38:55
    personally what I will say say is just
  • 00:38:58
    from a purely business and economic
  • 00:39:00
    point of view no morals no ethics
  • 00:39:02
    personal preferences whatever just
  • 00:39:04
    purely business and economics I'm glad
  • 00:39:07
    that the election is over I'm very glad
  • 00:39:10
    that Europe had elections this year and
  • 00:39:12
    and Europe's largest economy Germany
  • 00:39:14
    will have an election in February I'm
  • 00:39:16
    very glad that we remove
  • 00:39:18
    uncertainty for the business economy and
  • 00:39:20
    I think that will help us again
  • 00:39:24
    flourish so I guess where I was going
  • 00:39:27
    like is it is it not the case that for
  • 00:39:29
    for you guys when you're thinking about
  • 00:39:31
    deploying money in uh startups in the EU
  • 00:39:34
    or us uh that that was like significant
  • 00:39:37
    thing the the clarity I guess it was
  • 00:39:39
    right yeah exactly that's a good thing
  • 00:39:42
    okay okay good uh what I mean you're
  • 00:39:45
    you're a small business owner in the
  • 00:39:46
    construction stage what what do you make
  • 00:39:47
    of
  • 00:39:48
    it uh what do well so I make of it this
  • 00:39:53
    that us does within my lifetime us does
  • 00:39:55
    everything first and then everyone
  • 00:39:57
    follows and it's beautifully uh
  • 00:39:59
    illustrated by Central BS announcement
  • 00:40:02
    if F cat rates uh 25 Bank of England
  • 00:40:07
    that similarly exactly the same day the
  • 00:40:09
    next day does the same thing if they
  • 00:40:11
    raise they do the same the same thing
  • 00:40:13
    the next day um it's it's so it's
  • 00:40:15
    actually funny so I think the sentiment
  • 00:40:18
    have to will will kind of project onto
  • 00:40:21
    us uh I well I think you know with my
  • 00:40:25
    with what with what we do is um the
  • 00:40:28
    interest rates are are the key really so
  • 00:40:31
    um I take it all as a positive thing
  • 00:40:33
    because there's less uncertainty as you
  • 00:40:36
    kind of mentioned yeah do do you notice
  • 00:40:38
    any sentiment change in the UK e economy
  • 00:40:42
    not not like whatever general public or
  • 00:40:44
    anything uh since the change of the
  • 00:40:46
    government
  • 00:40:47
    yeah I actually think it was positive
  • 00:40:50
    from the amount of inquiries I get uh in
  • 00:40:53
    my business it was positive because I
  • 00:40:57
    get before the the period before the
  • 00:40:59
    election time everyone is like oh I
  • 00:41:01
    don't know I don't know I don't know
  • 00:41:02
    then once it happens okay it's it's not
  • 00:41:04
    like we want I'm not saying that it's
  • 00:41:07
    not like someone wants but it's not like
  • 00:41:08
    we want it but anyway we now know so we
  • 00:41:10
    can uh plan accordingly so it's clear
  • 00:41:13
    clean clean shirt at least
  • 00:41:15
    yeah yeah glad to hear it okay um I
  • 00:41:20
    think anything else on this one or
  • 00:41:22
    should we move on to the last one I'm um
  • 00:41:25
    I'm I'm just saying I read as a signal
  • 00:41:28
    that people believe there's going to be
  • 00:41:30
    a flurry of tech IPOs in 2025 in the US
  • 00:41:33
    and by the way in India that's already
  • 00:41:35
    happening uh sorry we we could have
  • 00:41:36
    picked this as Market sentiment too
  • 00:41:38
    market news too so there was a swiggy
  • 00:41:40
    IPO this this week in India 12 billion
  • 00:41:44
    uh IPO valuation raised up 10 8% I think
  • 00:41:47
    on the first day and it was a 1.4
  • 00:41:50
    billion money raised in that IPO and
  • 00:41:53
    then I believe let me double check that
  • 00:41:56
    blackbuck um which is the Convoy or
  • 00:41:59
    sender of India wanted to IPO this week
  • 00:42:02
    as
  • 00:42:03
    well
  • 00:42:06
    um yeah it ipoed yesterday so blackbug
  • 00:42:11
    ipoed
  • 00:42:13
    um 2.7 times
  • 00:42:18
    subscribed can't find the valuation
  • 00:42:20
    right
  • 00:42:21
    now but the overall point is that
  • 00:42:24
    actually the
  • 00:42:25
    um the overall IPO Market even if we
  • 00:42:30
    look always to the US in India has
  • 00:42:32
    already been super healthy um and this
  • 00:42:35
    week just we had the swiggy and the
  • 00:42:37
    blackb uh IPOs so that's
  • 00:42:40
    great very good um need to catch up with
  • 00:42:43
    shup as well to find out what's been
  • 00:42:45
    going on there we have him on for one of
  • 00:42:47
    these Fridays actually yeah yeah yeah
  • 00:42:49
    that's a good point to see how how India
  • 00:42:52
    is
  • 00:42:52
    doing okay uh good so let's move on to
  • 00:42:58
    Nico Bono's post um and let's see what
  • 00:43:02
    you can say about this so uh Nico says
  • 00:43:06
    actually he's quoting I don't know VC
  • 00:43:08
    logic um so you can only say no to a
  • 00:43:12
    great Founders twice if you turn them
  • 00:43:14
    down more times they will never engage
  • 00:43:16
    with your VC firm in the future let's
  • 00:43:19
    stop rejecting Founders from now on so I
  • 00:43:22
    will the way I read it so what I
  • 00:43:25
    actually like it but I don't like let's
  • 00:43:27
    stop rejecting Founders from now on like
  • 00:43:28
    that's doesn't sound reasonable but a
  • 00:43:32
    rejection of a good uh of good Founders
  • 00:43:36
    what does it what does it mean to you
  • 00:43:38
    what does it say to you so n Nik is
  • 00:43:40
    being sarcastic here he forgot SLS but
  • 00:43:42
    he's being sarcastic here and and the VC
  • 00:43:44
    logic um uh hashtag here is is the
  • 00:43:48
    sarcastic one so um okay yeah Nico says
  • 00:43:51
    that in a sarcastic tone I think the
  • 00:43:53
    real idiotic comment is from the second
  • 00:43:56
    comment here on the screen where this
  • 00:43:58
    guy says hey there's zero incent and and
  • 00:44:00
    this is not sarcastic so he means this
  • 00:44:02
    there's zero incentive for a VC to say
  • 00:44:04
    no to a startup unless it's outside of
  • 00:44:06
    the Mandate saying no blocks optionality
  • 00:44:08
    saying not yet keeps them in place so
  • 00:44:09
    this is
  • 00:44:10
    dumb but it's the reality so the guy
  • 00:44:13
    making this comment is making a dumb
  • 00:44:16
    statement but he's observing the truth
  • 00:44:18
    um what he's saying is actually the
  • 00:44:21
    go-to mode for 99% of um investors
  • 00:44:27
    employed investors or general Partners
  • 00:44:29
    in the VC industry they they typically
  • 00:44:32
    when they pass on a Founder um or on a
  • 00:44:34
    team they try to say something not
  • 00:44:38
    harmful not hurtful not necessarily
  • 00:44:41
    speaking the whole truth and more trying
  • 00:44:43
    to keep the optional thinking sorry I
  • 00:44:46
    should clarify thinking they keep the
  • 00:44:48
    optionality of further engagement with
  • 00:44:49
    the founder Down the Line open by saying
  • 00:44:52
    something that is not truthful not
  • 00:44:54
    transparent Etc and and then sending
  • 00:44:57
    monikers like hey cheering from the
  • 00:44:58
    sidelines next round we will bring the
  • 00:45:00
    rocket fuel all of these kinds of
  • 00:45:03
    meaningless statements and I say that is
  • 00:45:05
    numb it's not how how I operate it's not
  • 00:45:07
    how we operate I have actually made the
  • 00:45:10
    experience that a Founders are tired of
  • 00:45:13
    it be F the mature Founders they of
  • 00:45:16
    course they are immature people
  • 00:45:17
    everywhere in society also among
  • 00:45:19
    Founders but I'm talking about the
  • 00:45:20
    mature Founders buture Founders will
  • 00:45:23
    respect you and appreciate you much much
  • 00:45:26
    more if you follow follow my my function
  • 00:45:28
    and that is truth plus transparency
  • 00:45:31
    equals trust so that's how I treat
  • 00:45:33
    Founders when I pass on a company which
  • 00:45:35
    I do several times a week I write long
  • 00:45:39
    emails or I get on phone calls and and
  • 00:45:41
    make long explanations of what I'm
  • 00:45:44
    currently seeing in the business I'm
  • 00:45:46
    telling them what I what I'm seeing as
  • 00:45:49
    strengths assets thesis I'm also telling
  • 00:45:53
    them why I can't come across the line
  • 00:45:55
    right now and I don't say that in a way
  • 00:45:59
    where um I'm playing the option game I'm
  • 00:46:02
    only saying it in a truthful way but
  • 00:46:05
    with a respectful tone and mature
  • 00:46:07
    Founders 10 out of 10 times respect me
  • 00:46:11
    for it as well and re-engage with me the
  • 00:46:13
    immature Founders they might not but
  • 00:46:15
    they are not found that that's adverse
  • 00:46:17
    uh dis selection so that way I'm
  • 00:46:19
    actually weeding out immature Founders
  • 00:46:21
    the mature Founders find that very
  • 00:46:24
    refreshing and it's surprisingly
  • 00:46:26
    differentiating margin as a VC if you
  • 00:46:28
    don't do what this guy in the comment
  • 00:46:30
    here is observing because nobody else
  • 00:46:32
    plays it that way they all think they
  • 00:46:35
    better um don't don't say the
  • 00:46:39
    truth uh so I actually read it in a very
  • 00:46:43
    with my autistic brain slightly
  • 00:46:45
    differently um that um the good
  • 00:46:50
    Founders like that the VCS cannot spot
  • 00:46:53
    uh good Founders the good word uh kind
  • 00:46:56
    of let me wrong that VCS cannot spot uh
  • 00:47:00
    good Founders and they uh they reject
  • 00:47:03
    them and they finally they when they try
  • 00:47:05
    to engage with them then they um they
  • 00:47:09
    will not be taken seriously but uh um
  • 00:47:13
    yes you had this trust plus transparency
  • 00:47:16
    equals truth plus transparency TR Tru
  • 00:47:19
    truth plus equals uh trust right can you
  • 00:47:23
    elaborate on that because I think it's a
  • 00:47:24
    very very good statement or rule or law
  • 00:47:28
    um yeah can you elaborate on this with
  • 00:47:31
    the context of uh dealing with Founders
  • 00:47:35
    yeah sure I mean um yesterday I wrote a
  • 00:47:38
    rejection email to to a founding team
  • 00:47:40
    and I said to them hey this part of the
  • 00:47:42
    market I don't believe I don't believe
  • 00:47:44
    in I don't think it will Thrive and your
  • 00:47:46
    product can literally only address this
  • 00:47:49
    part of the market there is an adjacent
  • 00:47:51
    part of the market that I think your
  • 00:47:53
    approach can address that I would find
  • 00:47:55
    very very interesting but the problem is
  • 00:47:57
    your product the way it is set today
  • 00:47:59
    cannot address it it can only address
  • 00:48:01
    this first part of the market and right
  • 00:48:03
    now I told them in that email I cannot
  • 00:48:06
    think I thought about it for half a day
  • 00:48:08
    I cannot think of a way for you to break
  • 00:48:10
    out with your product to address that
  • 00:48:12
    other part of the market there's no
  • 00:48:14
    Synergy it seems adjacent but there's no
  • 00:48:16
    product Synergy for you to naturally
  • 00:48:19
    evolve there it requires a different
  • 00:48:20
    approach it requires a different product
  • 00:48:23
    so the subset of a market that you
  • 00:48:24
    address with your approach I'm not
  • 00:48:26
    interested in the other part I am and so
  • 00:48:28
    that's something where I'm I'm you know
  • 00:48:31
    I'm giving the founders an honest view
  • 00:48:34
    into my um thinking and I completely
  • 00:48:37
    make myself vulnerable because the
  • 00:48:39
    founder could also react very negatively
  • 00:48:41
    to it they they could throw a temper
  • 00:48:42
    tantum right they they could tell me
  • 00:48:44
    that I'm an idiot that I don't get it
  • 00:48:46
    Etc of course mature people be mature
  • 00:48:48
    yeah exactly mature people great
  • 00:48:50
    Founders will never do it they they will
  • 00:48:52
    thrive in give having someone actually
  • 00:48:56
    engage in an honest intellectual
  • 00:48:58
    conversation with them that's I mean in
  • 00:49:00
    the end that's scientific method it
  • 00:49:02
    doesn't mean that we think we're right
  • 00:49:04
    it's only means I'm telling you what I
  • 00:49:06
    observe and the logic I apply to my
  • 00:49:09
    observations that still means I can be
  • 00:49:11
    wrong about it and then we can all be
  • 00:49:13
    mature but I try to help you also
  • 00:49:15
    pressure test your own company and and
  • 00:49:19
    that's adverse dis selection if you want
  • 00:49:22
    so I'm I'm that way weeding myself out
  • 00:49:24
    from those Founders who cannot deal with
  • 00:49:26
    it and most likely they will never be
  • 00:49:28
    great Founders okay spot question um did
  • 00:49:31
    you come across situations when you
  • 00:49:33
    rejected someone TW founder twice and
  • 00:49:35
    then for the third time or fourth time
  • 00:49:37
    you ended up
  • 00:49:40
    investing oh great
  • 00:49:43
    question snap tro actually so that was
  • 00:49:46
    sh's steal but snap tro sh makes fun
  • 00:49:48
    right so I think we turned down ala five
  • 00:49:50
    times oh really yeah so snap TR probably
  • 00:49:54
    um for me
  • 00:49:59
    probably not but it's also a function of
  • 00:50:02
    how early um I invest so typically I
  • 00:50:05
    lead preed and Seed rounds and it's
  • 00:50:07
    tough to turn down someone twice for a
  • 00:50:10
    for for preed it's practically
  • 00:50:11
    impossible for a seed round um also
  • 00:50:15
    impossible it can happen with repeat
  • 00:50:17
    Founders so previously they built
  • 00:50:18
    something else that you didn't like and
  • 00:50:20
    now they're starting new company MH um
  • 00:50:23
    yeah I think I think ala is the funny
  • 00:50:25
    example for us mhm okay shout out to uh
  • 00:50:29
    ala and sttu then yeah very mature yes
  • 00:50:32
    yeah we we had him a few times really
  • 00:50:35
    really like him actually okay
  • 00:50:39
    um anything else on this one um I I mean
  • 00:50:43
    I would just say all VCS keep going the
  • 00:50:45
    way you're doing it because that way my
  • 00:50:47
    Approach is healthily
  • 00:50:50
    differentiated okay okay uh so um to
  • 00:50:54
    wrap this up I have a few well maybe
  • 00:50:56
    last question actually uh for you so
  • 00:50:59
    we've been now 10 and a half months in
  • 00:51:01
    the year um I don't know if you can
  • 00:51:04
    share or not how many Investments have
  • 00:51:05
    you guys made uh so far this year oh
  • 00:51:07
    this sorry I don't have the number right
  • 00:51:09
    now in front of me um first checks my
  • 00:51:12
    guess is five or six um including follow
  • 00:51:16
    ones 10 to 15
  • 00:51:20
    probably okay and what what's this time
  • 00:51:23
    of the year looks like for VC's uh is
  • 00:51:26
    get are you guys getting ready for
  • 00:51:28
    Christmas parties or like what's the per
  • 00:51:32
    what's the what's the that was a joke by
  • 00:51:34
    the way oh
  • 00:51:36
    man what's uh what's in plans in the
  • 00:51:38
    next let's say six weeks uh till the end
  • 00:51:41
    of this year like how are you started
  • 00:51:43
    thinking about next year or what's
  • 00:51:45
    what's how does it work do you want a
  • 00:51:48
    short answer be because what you asking
  • 00:51:50
    right now unintentionally is actually a
  • 00:51:53
    big big topic on my mind that I
  • 00:51:54
    discussed also with my wife last night
  • 00:51:56
    do you want short or long yeah let's do
  • 00:51:58
    the short one and maybe closer to the
  • 00:52:00
    end of the year we will touch on uh this
  • 00:52:02
    properly uh fully it's the busiest time
  • 00:52:06
    of the year so Q4 has the most
  • 00:52:08
    fundraisings going on it has the most
  • 00:52:11
    fundraising announcements that um
  • 00:52:13
    obviously influence also it's propaganda
  • 00:52:15
    right so it it it works on everybody's
  • 00:52:17
    mind um so this is the the busiest time
  • 00:52:20
    of the year no I mean the the year end
  • 00:52:21
    is far far away from me good so no
  • 00:52:24
    thinking of Christmas parties as yet
  • 00:52:27
    well anyway I'm atheist so um it's a
  • 00:52:30
    family party that's fine okay uh very
  • 00:52:34
    good uh I enjoyed Patrick thank you very
  • 00:52:36
    much uh and
  • 00:52:39
    um yeah I'll see you next week I guess
  • 00:52:42
    thank you Martin and I hope you can
  • 00:52:43
    recover from your jet leg quickly I will
  • 00:52:46
    I am thank you
  • 00:52:52
    [Music]
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