Stephen Fry and Richard Dawkins in Conversation
概要
TLDRIn an engaging discussion between Richard Dawkins and Stephen Fry, the conversation initiates with English cultural impressions, including notable figures like Churchill and Shakespeare. Dawkins, known for his work in evolutionary biology and skepticism about religion, discusses his educational background and scientific perspectives, whereas Fry, celebrated for his contributions to arts and advocacy for humanism and mental health, shares personal anecdotes about growing up with mixed heritage and his views on religion. The two delve into topics of mythology, art, and their intersections with human understanding and memory. Fry highlights the Greeks' contribution to arts through mythology and the importance of memory in creative endeavors. The discussion transitions to modern issues including monarchy, democracy, and the dichotomy between left and right political ideologies. Both express concerns over political polarities and emphasize the need for empirical approaches to ideas. The session concludes on an optimistic note, referencing works by Steven Pinker and Matt Ridley, acknowledging scientific progress yet stressing the need for alertness with looming global challenges, particularly in politics and climate change. Both speakers advocate for rational discourse and embrace intellectual curiosity.
収穫
- 🎭 Explore the dynamic between arts and sciences through iconic English figures.
- 🧪 Gain insights into Dawkins' skepticism about religion and his scientific views.
- 📚 Fry discusses his mixed heritage and its influence on his understanding of Englishness.
- 🏛️ Delve into Greek mythology's impact on arts and human memory.
- 🧠 Contemplate the intersection of science, art, and myth in forming human culture.
- 👑 Debate the symbolic role of monarchy and its perceived value in modern politics.
- 🔍 Examine political divides and the challenges of maintaining rational discourse.
- 🌍 Consider the relationship between scientific optimism and environmental concerns.
- 🗂️ Empathy for diverse opinions fosters richer discussions and understanding.
- 🚀 Emphasize the importance of playing gracefully with ideas within public discourse.
タイムライン
- 00:00:00 - 00:05:00
The speaker introduces the two distinguished individuals participating in the conversation: Richard Dawkins, a well-known evolutionary biologist and author, and Stephen Fry, a celebrated actor and writer. He humorously notes the image of British people in America and highlights the rich cultural and scientific history of Britain.
- 00:05:00 - 00:10:00
Stephen Fry reflects on his identity and upbringing, touching upon the feeling of being quintessentially English despite having foreign family origins. He relates this back to his childhood experiences in boarding school and his early fascination with religion, which was ultimately challenged by his disbelief in God.
- 00:10:00 - 00:15:00
Fry discusses his perspective on art and religion, emphasizing that appreciation of religious art does not necessitate belief in slavery or the tenets of religion. He shares insights into Greek mythology and its moral lessons, illustrating how myths reflect human experiences and societal norms.
- 00:15:00 - 00:20:00
Describing Greek myths like those of Phaeton and Icarus, Fry elaborates on the themes of hubris and ambition. He commends the Greeks for recognizing the value of progress and innovation, positioned against the backdrop of static civilizations like that of Egypt, illustrating that myths are culturally significant.
- 00:20:00 - 00:25:00
Engaging with Dawkins, Fry considers the nature of myths and their origins, examining whether Greek myths were allegorical. He reflects on how cultures personify natural phenomena as divine due to their uncontrollable nature, using Zeus' transformation as an example.
- 00:25:00 - 00:30:00
They discuss myths' role in historical belief systems, questioning whether ordinary Greek citizens took them literally. Fry proposes that myths served more as stories or artistic representations rather than literal beliefs, akin to fairy tales in modern contexts.
- 00:30:00 - 00:35:00
The conversation shifts to modern times, where Fry defends constitutional monarchy from a symbolic standpoint, using the example of the British monarchy as a non-political symbol. He presents the idea that an unbiased figurehead could act as a unifying symbol beyond politics, referencing Trump and Uncle Sam metaphorically.
- 00:35:00 - 00:40:00
Fry and Dawkins explore human cognition and societal behavior, criticizing both extreme sides of the political spectrum. Fry humorously recounts an anecdote involving Penn Jillette meeting Prince Charles, illustrating the often surreal experience of interacting with royalty.
- 00:40:00 - 00:45:00
They discuss the role of ceremony and tradition in society, with Fry expressing skepticism about dogmas while acknowledging their cultural importance. He critiques the execution of humanist ceremonies compared to traditional religious ones, emphasizing personalization in a secular context.
- 00:45:00 - 00:50:00
Addressing contemporary politics, Fry laments the ideological divide, expressing disillusionment with both regressive and aggressive movements. He envisions himself and others stuck in the middle, appreciating progressive steps facilitated by science and technology, despite current pessimistic trends.
- 00:50:00 - 00:55:10
Concluding with optimism, Fry and Dawkins recognize long-term progress despite current setbacks. They acknowledge significant social advancements, such as in education and health globally while considering future technological impacts. Fry advocates for skepticism as a means to remain alert and engaged with evolving ideas.
マインドマップ
ビデオQ&A
Who are the main speakers in this discussion?
Richard Dawkins and Stephen Fry are the main speakers.
What are some of the themes explored in their conversation?
They discuss English culture, mythology, political ideologies, the balance of science and art, and the importance of rational discourse.
How does Stephen Fry approach the topic of religion?
Stephen Fry shares his upbringing in religious contexts and expresses skepticism due to his lack of personal experience with a divine presence.
What is Richard Dawkins known for?
He is known for his work in evolutionary biology and his skepticism about religion.
How do they discuss the impact of Greek mythology?
Fry highlights Greek mythology's influence on the arts and its connection to human memory and creativity.
What is their stance on political polarization?
Both express concern over political polarities and emphasize the need for empirical approaches to ideologies.
What message do they convey about science and progress?
They acknowledge scientific progress but stress the need for vigilance in addressing global challenges like politics and climate change.
Why does Stephen Fry value the monarchy?
He sees it as a useful symbol for fostering accountability in leaders, akin to a symbolic, apolitical presence like Uncle Sam.
What is the closing note of their discussion?
The discussion ends on an optimistic note, expressing hope while urging for rational and graceful engagement with ideas.
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- 00:00:04I'm
- 00:00:05the attorney first CFI and I'm the person privileged to sit here between these two gentlemen and
- 00:00:12provide a brief introduction before the conversation and
- 00:00:15I fully appreciate none of you are here to listen to me and
- 00:00:20so
- 00:00:22What struck my mind is it's very interesting that you have three English people sat here on the stage in
- 00:00:29What is quite possibly the least English place?
- 00:00:37We in England we have Blackpool we have Skegness and you have Atlantic City in Las Vegas
- 00:00:43And there's an impression that Americans have of the British
- 00:00:48and the people you think of tends to be it tends to be Churchill and the royal family and
- 00:00:54then the the cast of Downton Abbey and
- 00:00:57Benny Hill and are you being served in that? So a Monty Python and that's Britain to you?
- 00:01:04But Britain etre and Britain and England, they these are countries with a deep history both of science and in the arts
- 00:01:11It's it's the country of Sir Isaac Newton of Charles Darwin of a Faraday and on the outside
- 00:01:18It's the country of Shakespeare of the Bronte sisters
- 00:01:22more money of Stanley Kubrick of the rolling stones of JK Rowling
- 00:01:28And what we've got here are two of them bought most for most people
- 00:01:33from our country in those two fields in the field of science and in the field of the Arts on the one hand we have
- 00:01:41Richard Dawkins, who as you know, the premier
- 00:01:44evolutionary biologist of his time a science educator
- 00:01:47Second to none the former Oxford University professor for the public understanding of science
- 00:01:53The author of such books that have changed lives as The Selfish Gene the blind watchmaker and The God Delusion
- 00:02:00And then we have Stephen Fry who described earlier and I have never heard a person who fits this better of the Renaissance man
- 00:02:07The actor on film on TV on stage the author the playwright the radio
- 00:02:14The quiz show host and if you have not watched Qi
- 00:02:18Start watching TOI
- 00:02:21The director of Norwich City Football Club
- 00:02:26But more than that
- 00:02:27this is a man who has educated us a man who's educated us in humanism and in humanity who's educated us in history in
- 00:02:35LGBT rights and those issues in mental health concerns and
- 00:02:41In the effortless superiority that comes with being English
- 00:02:50This is wonderful and and I am privileged
- 00:02:53My mother has said she will never speak to me again because I am sat here between these two gentlemen
- 00:02:58So I'm gonna pass this over to dr. Dawkins now that phrase effortless superiority
- 00:03:04Actually, you never it really comes from it comes from Bailey or College Oxford Oh
- 00:03:08The effortless superiority that marks the Bailey. Oh man well
- 00:03:13Steven is not a Bailey. Oh, man. I happen to be
- 00:03:19But um, I did worry a little bit about the same thing
- 00:03:23Nick was talking about she's got to be a terribly English party and I worry but about that
- 00:03:27Not only are we both for Oxbridge, but all three of us, I think
- 00:03:32but
- 00:03:33Steven and I both went to very similar schools as well. In fact neighbouring schools
- 00:03:37I was wrongfully word up in these our rival schools and
- 00:03:41I looked up upping among the web and it's exactly like our depressingly so
- 00:03:47And you talk about it in your autobiography and brought back horrible memories. Not that I was there, but very similar
- 00:03:56Memories, but I also got the feeling that you you back on it even though you were expelled
- 00:04:02You look back on it with a certain nostalgia
- 00:04:05I do I do and I picked up on a few things that Nick said and you mentioned also about Englishness and yes
- 00:04:12I am considered by many to be quintessentially English phrase that's often used and and I find it interesting
- 00:04:20Too of the 20th century's figures of whom you would most use that phrase are probably Winston Churchill and I Christie
- 00:04:27Who was absolutely typify everything it is to be English and in both cases like me
- 00:04:33They had foreign parents. They were only half English
- 00:04:36Churchill was half American as you probably know his mother was an American woman
- 00:04:40Agatha Christie's father was an American
- 00:04:43My parent parents my father's very English, but my mother's family was little European Jewish
- 00:04:48and I think sometimes
- 00:04:50not belonging to a culture especially one is established and as
- 00:04:55Naturally replete with its iconography of oak trees and Robin Hood
- 00:04:59Shakespeare and cricket and castles and royalty and so on but having a family who had
- 00:05:04embarrassingly foreign and swooped in from Israel and New York
- 00:05:08bearing presents and doing that thing that no Englishman could possibly abide which is talking about food and
- 00:05:15The bunch of eat we should eat what you dirty? I don't talk about eating. It's like talking about going to the lavatory
- 00:05:20You can't possibly do it
- 00:05:22so I was filled with the embarrassment of the part of me that wanted to be totally English and
- 00:05:29say, you know pretend my foreign family didn't exist and a
- 00:05:34Great self-consciousness about what it was to be Asian
- 00:05:37To move that on to our subject that begins I was sent away to boarding school when I was seven
- 00:05:43So it was like 200 miles from home which in English terms is the entire length of the country
- 00:05:49So my parents seemed to send me away very early to go and stay there and the day was marked out by
- 00:05:55religious services as they are in these schools and then it was in the public school after that again, and and I became
- 00:06:03immensely interested and immensely moved by the music the architecture the liturgy and everything to do with
- 00:06:11Religion and I wanted to be a priest an Anglican priest but high Anglican I liked it. I liked the music
- 00:06:16I liked the smells I liked
- 00:06:19Ritual I liked the feeling of belonging. I loved everything about it and it got to the stage where I
- 00:06:26Actually went to see the suffrage and Bishop of Lynne in Norfolk
- 00:06:31I didn't quite know what to suffer Gunn Bishop is it's one of those words. It's only ever applied to Bishop
- 00:06:35you never meet a suffrage and teacher or a
- 00:06:38brain surgeon something
- 00:06:40but anyway
- 00:06:40It was a suffragan digit bishop and he chatted to me and when we talked about
- 00:06:46theology and so on and then and then he asked a question about God and I said, oh, well, that's
- 00:06:53That's my one problem
- 00:06:58He said go on I said, you know, I am I
- 00:07:02never been spoken to by God or spoken to God or have any real sense that there could be such a thing that
- 00:07:09Because the beauty of the church is it's made by man
- 00:07:12The anchored Church in particular was constructed in a very short time by Archbishop Cranmer and 10 to the 8th to some extent
- 00:07:20And I liked it. I liked what it stood for
- 00:07:22I liked its breath and it's sort of tolerance as a church
- 00:07:26but the idea of there being a God just struck me as being preposterous and and in my excitement of
- 00:07:35Fondness for the a merkin Church
- 00:07:37I had forgotten that really believing in God was still a small in the case of Anglican but necessary part
- 00:07:44And he advised me to come back when God had spoken to me, and I'm still waiting for
- 00:07:51But but I I'm really I don't know how you feel about Richard
- 00:07:54I know you're sometimes accused not knowing enough about religion
- 00:07:57which is nonsense because I know you do know a lot about the history of Christianity and other religions and
- 00:08:03and
- 00:08:04Sometimes people who said to me but you love box
- 00:08:08masses the you know
- 00:08:09You love his the b-minor mass
- 00:08:11You love the you you know that it's in Matthew and this is John you you you love so much. We can't artists you love
- 00:08:19Mozart's requiem' you know, whatever you love Michelangelo and you love yes
- 00:08:25Who doesn't
- 00:08:27but there are number of things you can say about that one is
- 00:08:30obviously the church was the great employer and the time of the Renaissance and
- 00:08:35So they had artists had no one else to paint for
- 00:08:40but the other thing he said that the fact that
- 00:08:44Religious art can be beautiful doesn't make religion true. For example
- 00:08:48Without slavery, we would never have had what was called the Negro spiritual or gospel music
- 00:08:52But I thing that means you have to believe in slavery. It's it's just that sometimes, you know, there are certain ways of
- 00:09:01Mankind organizing themselves that can that artists will produce great art from and and it is one of those peculiar
- 00:09:09ideas, I mean after all most of Renaissance art after some 1520's was more likely to be based on Greek mythology and
- 00:09:17You don't ask whether or not
- 00:09:20You know whatto and and another office like that believed in Apollo
- 00:09:27Yes, yes
- 00:09:30Talking about of Greek mythology, of course, you'll let your latest book I think is on on is Miss awesome and
- 00:09:37Just register greatly enjoyed it
- 00:09:40Do you take you don't take more lessons from that? Do you know it's very unlikely top staples is there not Aesop's fables?
- 00:09:48I absolutely agree. I mean, there's no question. You can look at quite a lot of Greek myth and say that it has
- 00:09:55tropes what are known in the business is myth Eames, which will be a familiar first form of words to you and
- 00:10:02Which repeat both within Greek mythology and indeed in other mythologies, but particularly in Greek mythology again
- 00:10:09And again, you have like the Phaeton myth
- 00:10:11You know, who was the son of Apollo stroke Helios the Sun God who who demanded of his father it would be an absent father
- 00:10:18And felt guilty. He demanded that he be allowed to ride the charity of the son
- 00:10:24And having granted him. Anyway, he couldn't back off and Phaeton gets on the chariot
- 00:10:30And of course he goes to to near the Sun and the the earth freezes at the poles
- 00:10:36He plunges too deep and the the deserts get formed as he burns the earth and eventually Zeus sees that he's destroying the planet by
- 00:10:44moving the Sun up and done and and he Thunderbolt him out of existence and and
- 00:10:50You probably know the story of Icarus, too
- 00:10:52of course the son of dangerous the
- 00:10:54inventor who made the wings
- 00:10:55In the he told his son Icarus that he mustn't go too near the sea or you know
- 00:10:59the wingtips will be caught in and be made sodden and waterlogged and he'd be drowned or he mustn't fly too close to this because
- 00:11:07Because the the feathers were held on with wax which would melt and he would plummet and of course he plummeted
- 00:11:13And there are there are lots of Greek myths along those lines, which if you exhibit what you might call hubris
- 00:11:19a
- 00:11:20people overstretching indeed that the Greek for stretching too far is detainees and the
- 00:11:25Titans were the race of the sort of second race of
- 00:11:30Divine beings the Titans stretched too far and and the Greeks I think were aware that they were the first civilization
- 00:11:38through all kinds of accidents including the arrival of the alphabet and and you know
- 00:11:44Richly linear B. And then the Greek alphabet they were the first nation
- 00:11:48to believe in progress
- 00:11:50to believe that as it were a father should outdo a son a child should outdo a parent and
- 00:11:56And that's why I think Greek myths full of things like Phaeton
- 00:11:59And the the young trying to fly too close to the Sun because the Greeks had as an example
- 00:12:06Egypt you they looked across the Mediterranean and for three and a half thousand years
- 00:12:11the Egyptians hadn't invented anything new three and a half thousand years and
- 00:12:16Extremely prosperous civilization had basically stayed the same as had other
- 00:12:21Civilizations as far as we know around the world. They had established themselves. This is how we build a pylon
- 00:12:26This is how we do a lintel and entablature. This is how we worship. This is how we move food about that's it
- 00:12:33Mm-hmm. We now have a viable life and it could last for four thousand years
- 00:12:37but the Greeks with incredible speed changed everything change the way they ran their politics into deems or or
- 00:12:45city-states
- 00:12:46Changed the way they used voting and and change the way they had juries and a justice system
- 00:12:52mathematics and algebra and logic
- 00:12:55even Pythagorean rules about music and harmony
- 00:12:58all these things appeared at incredible speed and the arrival of a literature and and and
- 00:13:06It was best but by Browning I think
- 00:13:09Summing up. This Greek is stretching out. This constant feeling that there is more you can discover more
- 00:13:16it's all there to be discovered and
- 00:13:19Ignores, this is word for that they discover
- 00:13:22from within their own experience as human beings and through experiment with the world and
- 00:13:28Browning as browning put it that a man's reach should exceed his grasp or what's a heaven for?
- 00:13:34And I think Plato and the Greeks understood the idea of heaven, although they talked about God in heaven
- 00:13:39They knew them exactly as a model as an idea
- 00:13:42There is an ideal to which we strive and the Greeks are constantly striving towards something better. They don't believe
- 00:13:50you know that as
- 00:13:53Simon Raven the novelist put it the genius of the Greeks lay in this
- 00:13:57understanding of eschatology of you know, the idea of a life after death and
- 00:14:02It was put by sinon
- 00:14:04I think the Greek who said any single person who tells you that they know what happens to a human being
- 00:14:12After they have died is either a liar or a fool
- 00:14:18simple an obvious thing to say, but the Greeks had that and
- 00:14:22it's mysterious to us because
- 00:14:25We tribally and for hundreds of years almost thousand and a half years
- 00:14:31Struggled to have such a simple honest open idea anybody who tells you what happens after you die. It's hotter or alive read Stephen
- 00:14:39I've read you saying somewhere that we must believe there is no life after death
- 00:14:44Oh, yes
- 00:14:44And and because we we really live a very bad life unless we do believe
- 00:14:49It because if we think we this is this is just a preparation. Yes. Yeah
- 00:14:54I remember being shocked before he shocked us for other reasons by Mel Gibson
- 00:15:00Well, I know
- 00:15:02But he was being interviewed
- 00:15:03this is in the 80s at the very height of his young stardom when he was the coolest man on the planet virtually and
- 00:15:09I had no idea that he was belonged to this particularly severe Catholic section in Australia that his father was there was a member of
- 00:15:18But with the interview said, I believe I've read somewhere Mel that you're
- 00:15:22You you believe in
- 00:15:24life after death and in
- 00:15:26and
- 00:15:28Mel Gibson said well
- 00:15:30I know I know one thing for a fact
- 00:15:33There's got to be more to it than this
- 00:15:36What
- 00:15:38What even if you were just an ordinary guy?
- 00:15:43To say oh, yeah, this is America Australia this Europe. There's the Lake District. There's the poles there's the deserts
- 00:15:50There's the tropics. There's the bushes this if the galaxy there are units but there's gotta be more than that surely
- 00:15:57but not only that you are a star who can have as much sex as you can eat and and
- 00:16:03as much money as you could possibly demand and you feel it's somehow not enough, you know, and this idea that
- 00:16:12Of course we're all kinds of obvious ways of knowing that religion, you know uses
- 00:16:17Uses the afterlife and the threat of something better as a way of allowing people
- 00:16:22Forcing people to put up with what they've got
- 00:16:25But yes, I do believe that even on its own terms if you believe in an afterlife its limits this life
- 00:16:32You know
- 00:16:33you've got to as Oscar Wilde said
- 00:16:35try the fruit of every tree of every orchard in the world and some will be bitter and some will be a too addictive and
- 00:16:42And so on but but if you and and so I often say to religious people I said, you know
- 00:16:48It would say well suppose, you know a Calvinist
- 00:16:53Appears of the gates of heaven and some Peter says so what did you make of them?
- 00:16:59Cannabis sativa, the the plant there. Oh, I never tried that. No, no
- 00:17:04The idea how much effort went into making this very special plant
- 00:17:09I'm not saying you should have nothing, but but you didn't even try it
- 00:17:13What about wine or no, no no wine touch my lips you fucker do you know
- 00:17:20Do you know how complex the grape is unique of all fruits? You don't have to add sugar
- 00:17:26For it to turn into this remarkable and you didn't even bother to try it that's such an extraordinary idea
- 00:17:33I mean now, you know Pete you should on your deathbed you should be going damn it
- 00:17:37I I never drank milk from the armpits of a Nepalese virgin or whatever it is
- 00:17:42I never I don't know that wouldn't be my particular one that some people
- 00:17:46You know, I never climbed Kilimanjaro. I never you know, there's so much. That's so beautiful
- 00:17:53I
- 00:17:55Once asked the professor of ancient history at Oxford whether the Greeks really believed in their gods and to my surprise, he said yes
- 00:18:04Definitely did it's very interesting. I mean there's
- 00:18:08The the gods are so colored. I mean the twelve Olympian gods and there were many others
- 00:18:13I think they used the names of primal gods that had no personality and they did believe in them as
- 00:18:21abstract words Aristotle uses them a lot
- 00:18:24the Greek words for necessity cause and blame for example necessity
- 00:18:31Ananka is very strong idea in Greek philosophy
- 00:18:35and
- 00:18:36Morris Doom
- 00:18:37The ones do and literally means it's not a word you use in English, but it used to be used portion
- 00:18:43What is allotted to you?
- 00:18:45Yeah
- 00:18:45And they were the first we know of again because of their first to have writing
- 00:18:50But to go and very sophisticated ways into the question of free will
- 00:18:55Which is a very hot issue at the moment as you probably know very few philosophers now all scientists
- 00:19:01believe there is such a thing as free well and they kind of don't speak about it because it's been embarrassing because if
- 00:19:07you have to explain to people that that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as
- 00:19:11Responsibility and it doesn't mean that we don't try and live a good virtuous life
- 00:19:15According to our lights and so on but that it's a sort of intellectual point about being fairly clear
- 00:19:21There is no such thing as free well or as shop and how poor did we we we can we'll what we do
- 00:19:27But we can't will what we will
- 00:19:30there's a very important point and the Greeks were very interested in that and so they they had this idea of fate and
- 00:19:38necessity
- 00:19:39Europe your portion which they gave a kind of divine permanence that these were things that were there that were
- 00:19:46Outside our control and I think most of human history
- 00:19:50And most of myth and religion is a has been a question of refining
- 00:19:56Our understanding of things we can't control so when our ancestors were really were alone and without any
- 00:20:04Building or farming yet as being an idea
- 00:20:06We were hunter-gatherers as the Frazee's
- 00:20:09Their children looked at the mothers and fathers and they said why does what is it that pushes leaves out of trees?
- 00:20:16It's something that's beyond our control. I know if I pick a stone up
- 00:20:19The stone is picked up, but how it what is the power behind the leaf coming out of a tree happens every year?
- 00:20:26What is this fire that comes out of a mountain? What is the water that drops out of the sky?
- 00:20:30These are things over which we have no control. And so it's very natural that our ancestors gave them personality
- 00:20:36It's the first thing we do it's it's it's as much art and literature as it is
- 00:20:41religion to to to make a story out of these forces
- 00:20:45And so you you you name a god of the mountain that roars fire?
- 00:20:49You name a god of the clouds?
- 00:20:51And the Thunder and you have a God of nature and of growth and the harvest and and one of decay and you make rituals
- 00:20:58Out of it and well, then slowly you begin to understand them and each one that you understand the God disappears
- 00:21:03But this is what enemies do
- 00:21:06and them and I I get that but
- 00:21:10To believe that Zeus turned himself into an eagle in order to oh, I don't I I don't think Aristotle Plato believed
- 00:21:16Oh, I'm sure they didn't but did the ordinary
- 00:21:19Athenian in the street believe that and I suspect not but I don't think they did. I think they they
- 00:21:25Conveniently said much as we you know much as children's fairy stories do that. There was a time when
- 00:21:33men and women walked with pixies and fairies we say, you know
- 00:21:38and there was a time when men and women
- 00:21:42consorted with gods
- 00:21:42the Greek said when the gods would cut gods would come down in the form of an eagle or
- 00:21:47Whatever or they would turn human beings into flowers
- 00:21:50And a lot of these etiological myths there misdescribed to describe the causes of things
- 00:21:57and and and some of them are some of them have profound insight and some of them are just sweet stories like for example
- 00:22:04when Zeus and Hera got married
- 00:22:07Zeus had said that any any any
- 00:22:10One who or anything any creature that could come up with the best food for the for the wedding?
- 00:22:15Would be granted a wish and so you imagined this kind of Gordon Ramsay situation on these
- 00:22:21You know TV chef things were all these trestle tables and all these double, you know
- 00:22:26a young Haran had created a little sort of
- 00:22:29jelly for them to eat and they try that and then all the other animals and they come to this tiny little pot and
- 00:22:37Hiro
- 00:22:38Tasted this is delicious and Zeus tasted. So this is very good
- 00:22:41What is it in the little creature called Melissa who has made it says there if you please I've made this
- 00:22:46It's a very special process
- 00:22:48I've invented I go from flower to flower and I collect all the little bits of nectar, and I then put them together
- 00:22:54But it takes a huge amount of effort. But anyway, I've made this pot of it
- 00:22:57I call it honey and Zeus in here and say well you've won the prize. There's no question named your wish and
- 00:23:03Melissa says well, it takes so much effort and
- 00:23:08Days and days and days to make the smallest amount of my honey
- 00:23:11And and one swipe of a Foxy's
- 00:23:14Pour and one lick of a bear's tongue and all my work can be undone
- 00:23:18And you've given the scorpion a weapon and the snake of venomous bite, but I don't have any weapon
- 00:23:24So, can you give me a fatal sting so that anyone who tries to?
- 00:23:29steal steal my honey its fatal and
- 00:23:31Zeus is furious and there's a bit sound of thunder because he thinks it's such a selfish
- 00:23:36Wish this is very well says you will have a fatal sting. She squeaks in triumph fizzes, but
- 00:23:42but it will be fatal to you and as you know a wasp can sting as many times as it likes them but but a
- 00:23:49But a bee sting is barbed a honey bee sting which is melissa is honey
- 00:23:53Bee, of course
- 00:23:53And and and so they have to pull her and guts out after they've stung you and they kill themselves and that was uses
- 00:23:59punishment for her selfishness
- 00:24:00But pleasingly as Richard will know the the order of 2 which bees and wasps belong is known as Hymenoptera
- 00:24:09- - entomologists which means wedding wings
- 00:24:13Anyway, so that's just a sweet story. That's the typical mythic story
- 00:24:16But then there are I think profound insights. So I'm sure you've all heard of the muses the nine sisters who lived in
- 00:24:25And who represented each one of them one of the arts?
- 00:24:28Chapstick or a for dance and clear victory and so on and so forth
- 00:24:32But what's so interesting is that their mother my father was used of course because he was properly bit with his seed
- 00:24:38but their mother was one of the original Titan s is one of the first twelve of the Titans whose name is Mnemosyne a
- 00:24:45Man named Watson. Hey, that's difficult word to say and it simply the Greek word for memory as in mnemonic
- 00:24:52and
- 00:24:54So there the Greeks are saying there what Joseph Campbell would he called myths?
- 00:25:00He called them public dreams
- 00:25:03Which I think is a rather brother, you know, you called them the collective unconscious but whatever it is
- 00:25:09Whether it's the public dream of the Greek people or their collective unconscious
- 00:25:13They said the arts are all daughters of memory. And I think that is extremely true
- 00:25:20It's a compressed poetic idea that
- 00:25:24artists
- 00:25:25reassemble
- 00:25:26Put back together again learned experience felt emotions
- 00:25:32truthful recall of what it is to be alive and
- 00:25:36that therefore all artists are summoning that memory muses are the daughters of memory and that's
- 00:25:42an accident if you like of the beauty of human culture that a
- 00:25:47people can come up with a myth a way of
- 00:25:52Personifying I complex ideas abstract ideas, but let me ask about this
- 00:25:58I've always been fascinated by where they come from. It's it's as though we
- 00:26:03believe that somehow these things emerge from you coordinate or fight yearly and collective unconscious or
- 00:26:10but
- 00:26:11Somebody must actually have sat down and made it up in the first place. Just emerge
- 00:26:16You have a jokes, isn't it? Where did the joke?
- 00:26:19Told that joke and the campfire or something some read means one assumes around a fire. Yes. I have a I
- 00:26:27I'm because of one of my greatest is language as well. I think it's very I
- 00:26:33think it's you know, it's
- 00:26:35Clear that
- 00:26:36around a fire
- 00:26:38You know, it's cold
- 00:26:39there are animals wolves are howling and the children that can't get sleep and
- 00:26:45Full tummies and you want to tell stories and everything's mysterious
- 00:26:49and as I say you want to explain things the Greeks had this advantage that oh,
- 00:26:54No other myths up until that time and many after didn't have and that is as I say they had
- 00:27:01they had settled down as a people as the Doric people Iommi and people the various different people of the of the of the of
- 00:27:08the peninsula of Greece and so on and
- 00:27:11writing had arrived so Hesiod and Homer were able to put down and so you could have pedigrees and family histories and
- 00:27:19Chronologies of the gods which had never happened before but who first came up with them and their names? Well, you can be
- 00:27:27You know, you can be sure that they all came from further east
- 00:27:31They follow the development of mankind and civilization as we currently understand it which as you know
- 00:27:37Really seem to spring up in what they call the Fertile Crescent the Greek for between rivers the Tigris and the Euphrates
- 00:27:44and the Greek for between rivers is
- 00:27:47Mesopotamia so it's that area that what is now Iraq?
- 00:27:51huge irony being the very place where Isis has pulled down so many of those archaeological reminders of where
- 00:27:58Mankind first started to civilize itself in as much as we ever have I to settle and have roots and cities
- 00:28:05so on and and that that's where it began the first of those gods as far as we can tell they then moved west from
- 00:28:14tyre and the Lebanon
- 00:28:16The Cadmus myth which comes from the beginning of the alphabet comes from there was the Phoenicians
- 00:28:22It was Cadmus his brother, Phoenix
- 00:28:25Who had founded the Phoenician Empire and it's I know I mean, you know
- 00:28:30You will never really know because so much that we need to know comes before writing or even carving it
- 00:28:37But we can guess let's move to the modern world now
- 00:28:42you've said
- 00:28:43in defense of the royal family and
- 00:28:48Surprisingly you've
- 00:28:50Met said that you're a monarchist of a sword over and one of the points you made was that well, there's a queen has no
- 00:28:58power
- 00:28:59Officially, it's somehow good for the Prime Minister. They have to go every week. Yeah, and as it were
- 00:29:06explained herself
- 00:29:08To the monitor and if only Trump had to go to Uncle Sam, yeah, that's right
- 00:29:14Exactly. I I did I wrote an op-ed for the New York Times
- 00:29:20Which I said exactly that a couple of fourth of July ago
- 00:29:23I said
- 00:29:24you know if there if Uncle Sam was a living person this embodiment of
- 00:29:29The US and it only occurred to me when I was writing the article that Uncle Sam his initials were u.s.a did so obvious
- 00:29:38So there with his bony knees and his wispy beard and his stripy
- 00:29:41top hat and in his waistcoat with the stripes and the stars and everything all over it and and
- 00:29:47He is an embodiment a personification of what America is supposed to be
- 00:29:51Barely a real human being at all more an idea and that's what a queen is
- 00:29:56That's what a monarchy is not
- 00:29:57I mean, of course somewhere there's some real DNA real person who sits on a laboratory and all the rest of it
- 00:30:02but the Queen as far as we're concerned is an image in imago a
- 00:30:07Sort of
- 00:30:08you know a
- 00:30:10Constant a constant
- 00:30:12embodiment of an idea not a not a person and that's why when people meet
- 00:30:17Queen Anne actually a great friends of this festival and of the great amazing
- 00:30:21Randi are Penn Jillette and Teller
- 00:30:24you know Penn & Teller who kind of earned this town as magicians and great skeptics and rationalists and I was
- 00:30:31Emceeing of this is literally 20 years ago now
- 00:30:34Because I'm doing the same thing in three days time with for his 70th birthday
- 00:30:38But it was the 50th birthday of the Prince of Wales
- 00:30:41and I was M seeing the show we did at the London Palladium and Penn & Teller did some magic at it and
- 00:30:46After that curtain came down
- 00:30:49The Penn was next to me said oh no what happens now? We've got to meet the princess up right? That's it
- 00:30:55Yeah, he just comes along
- 00:30:57So later everybody and pen doctor said well, I gotta call me your majesty
- 00:31:02I said well no, he's not the monarch you technically it would be your royal highness if you wanted to come anything
- 00:31:08But don't bother just I haven't called you pen once since we've been chatting in the last day and you don't call people by their
- 00:31:13Name do you Nick do you Richard?
- 00:31:15You know, it's so just don't bother don't think about it good and do I have to bow because I'm American we don't bow
- 00:31:22He knows you're American he's heard your voice you may not know that l is American so doesn't speak but he knows you're American
- 00:31:30Honestly, it's fine. Well, I'm gonna get put in the Tower of London Oh for heaven's sake I assure you it's fine
- 00:31:38Anyway, Prince was in love. Did you see? Oh, how do you do? Thank you for coming do appreciate it
- 00:31:47He gets to Penn who fools your royal majesty Highness
- 00:31:58The Prince looks a little baffled, but he's used to it. It happens all the time
- 00:32:01he moves along and again and then of course Penton Smith said I
- 00:32:05betrayed my country
- 00:32:08Why did how do what power do they have
- 00:32:13And it is that power that exists and it's not the same as a pretend religious thing
- 00:32:19It's something we understand in minor ways
- 00:32:21we know what the power of a brand is in court in the corporate world and
- 00:32:25and in a much more concentrated an
- 00:32:27extraordinary an almost mystical way the power of a brand like a monarch is such that I have seen people who are
- 00:32:33furiously
- 00:32:35Anti-monarchist II who in the presence of the cream will melt slightly and if president Trump were not the head of state
- 00:32:42But were the servant of his people like a prime minister who?
- 00:32:46has a head of state who would be Uncle Sam and if light the Prime Minister has to every single week come what may
- 00:32:54Prime Minister has to go to back in Palace and have an audience with the Queen
- 00:32:57You'll probably remember if you ever saw the series the crown
- 00:33:00When the cream first ascended to the throne her first Prime Minister having to be Winston Churchill who had to come in to her presence
- 00:33:06And stand an old man, not that physically well
- 00:33:10Stand in her presence and explain himself to this young girl
- 00:33:14Who was the symbol of her country and she took the mantle on and she's been doing it ever since?
- 00:33:18Now if Trump had to do that had to go to some colonial mansion on the hill
- 00:33:23Where this this figure our Uncle Sam was well now well now young young young. Mr. Trump. What have you been doing this week? And
- 00:33:32And Trump had to bow his head and he's bowing
- 00:33:36He said not because he believes in monarchy or some trumped-up nonsense to do with the divinity of Kings
- 00:33:41But because he is the basing himself in front of the idea of the country
- 00:33:44He is there to serve. I think that's mentally helpful. And that's where I think
- 00:33:50myth ritual and ceremony
- 00:33:52Have real place as long as you know what they are because if you actually believed as a god or you know
- 00:33:58If you you know, as long as you understand that the most it's the Wizard of Oz operating the levers
- 00:34:02but then nonetheless the power it has over us is it we are you know as
- 00:34:09evolutionary
- 00:34:11Biology and and and so which is is, you know a hugely growing field
- 00:34:15we're beginning to understand a little more about how he evolved in terms of our feelings as well as our
- 00:34:22cognition
- 00:34:22and I'm sure many of you have read some of the popular books that have been around in the last dozen years dealing with the
- 00:34:29subject of our that the
- 00:34:31contingency of our understanding of anything at exactly the time when the world is disintegrating and the
- 00:34:39Power of the UN or the EU or other groups, however, flawed to bring people together
- 00:34:44Everyone's being propelled against and even today I noticed Trump has got rid of the 1986 or 87 is it?
- 00:34:51strategic arms
- 00:34:53Treaty with Russia. He just announced today. He's he's
- 00:34:57Terminating it. He said so as all of this happens and
- 00:35:01as
- 00:35:02Less and less Authority and understanding of our in the world happens. We are beginning to understand how little we actually know
- 00:35:10so that while
- 00:35:12Skeptics and rationalists are very keen to remind people of how we should always examine the truth and look at the truth
- 00:35:19We are the first to understand
- 00:35:21thanks to Daniel Kahneman and thanks to various others how little we know and how how how much our
- 00:35:30cognition and how much our understanding is colored and
- 00:35:33changed is
- 00:35:35Transmogrified by both what we wish and what we have experienced what our body expects us to feel or our eyes
- 00:35:41expect us to see and and we can't necessarily trust in in in everything but
- 00:35:49That's an excitement. That doesn't mean we give up trying to know things
- 00:35:54It means we try even harder to realize how
- 00:35:58you know, just how
- 00:36:00How our emotions have a huge part to play in everything we do we are immensely
- 00:36:05Emotional and being skeptical and being rational is not denying that it's understanding it
- 00:36:10it's understanding the the part emotions have to play and and ritual and ceremony and
- 00:36:16Metaphor and symbol which are the substance of art and so on
- 00:36:20Also the substance of a lot of ways humans behave. I mean, even you the comedy of me not knowing who was to take the
- 00:36:28The the award that I was given I I almost wanted to say well the one thing the church gets right is they rehearse?
- 00:36:35The bishop the bishop has told the old world we don't know what he's told the older boy
- 00:36:42But
- 00:36:44You know, there's a way you hold it here. You put it down here
- 00:36:47This goes here
- 00:36:47and and I'm sure many humanists in the room have have come across this issue of where we find the poetry and the
- 00:36:55Romance the ritual the glamour
- 00:36:57That the church has over the over hundreds of years has managed to find in order to send people away from the world
- 00:37:04and yet to come to a really good humanists funeral or
- 00:37:08wedding
- 00:37:09and some of them I was asked by a friend a concert pianist to
- 00:37:12To be the humanist preacher as it were his wedding and I did my best
- 00:37:17and one can raid and ransack the larder of of
- 00:37:20poetry and music that exists without having to adduce a creator for someone's wedding or someone's funeral but
- 00:37:28But we should learn from the fact that the church's obviously I was not present of that weddings deal
- 00:37:33But I absolutely know you did it a lot better than any
- 00:37:37Or suffered in Bishop. I
- 00:37:41Mean and I think they disagree with you about funerals, too
- 00:37:44I've been to a number of humanist funerals and they've work well have a no question about it
- 00:37:49The religious ones are not tailored to the individual
- 00:37:54they are a formula an
- 00:37:56algorithm
- 00:37:57Which is in the Book of Common Prayer and they just read out as though it was anybody
- 00:38:00The humanist ones are about the person who's died. Yes, the person who's died their favorite poetry that they read music
- 00:38:07You got eulogies
- 00:38:09Speaking about them. There's so much more is drooling
- 00:38:13I'm see writing and tailoring it and being personal rather than as you say being a being
- 00:38:18general but on the other hand this it's a good mixture because
- 00:38:22If you are married in a traditional service and you get a really dramatic
- 00:38:27Vicar or bishop and they say after the bride and groom have kissed those whom God hath joined
- 00:38:32Let no man put asunder. Yes, you think wow, that's good. That is good there
- 00:38:38You know, you really ought similarly ashes to ashes dust to dust. Yes, I think Wow
- 00:38:43I am joining in with my community in that. Yeah, that's good. But there are a few good phrases that you have gotta admit
- 00:38:49They came out
- 00:38:51Good, but we can we can match them. Yeah Shakespeare or week we can do it, but it's also it's a bit cultural
- 00:38:58You know, I I just just suddenly remembered. I was doing a filming in northern Spain and
- 00:39:04they have this amazing tradition the Basque the the chakra where the the the men cook and
- 00:39:11And and they had these male cooking clubs and all the wives and families and friends come and and the men do this
- 00:39:19Feeling outside often or if it's in winter inside and we were invited to this and it was astonishing to see
- 00:39:25And a great thing to be a part of and when it finished people got up and started singing Basque songs
- 00:39:31and there were about seven of us have
- 00:39:35English on from in the film David Suchet used to be played
- 00:39:39Poirot so successfully he was playing the Polian
- 00:39:42I was playing Wellington and there were a few of us and they turned to us and said to
- 00:39:48Sing now
- 00:39:49We thought we're gonna sing we're gonna sing we all live in a yellow submarine
- 00:39:54they've been seeing these basque songs of the mountains that are 300 years old and I said
- 00:39:59I don't know any English songs apart from pop songs
- 00:40:02I mean there is sort of early one morning just as the Sun was rising. There are few and maybe that's the problem
- 00:40:08maybe the problem with being English and
- 00:40:11Empire and everything like that is that we have no culture of our own we've just stolen so many has the world's worst national anthem
- 00:40:17Yeah, we do have pretty grog pretty grim one of those do we yeah
- 00:40:21you've said Stephen that
- 00:40:23The catastrophe of Trump and brexit is more less a triumph of the right as a failure of the left. Yes
- 00:40:30Do you recognize the phrase regressive left which I think was coined by Margit know else? Yes. I've come across it. Yeah
- 00:40:36Yeah, you have a view on that I am
- 00:40:40That there's a part of me that just wants to be mischievous and say look, you know
- 00:40:46This Grand Canyon close to where we are. Now, this Grand Canyon is opened up in America and really across the
- 00:40:53World and certainly the developed world did the chattering world if you like
- 00:40:56And it's getting wider every day and therefore P on each side of the divide
- 00:41:01they have to shout louder and
- 00:41:03gesticulate more horribly to be heard by the other side and they're not being heard by the other side and they're just making noises and
- 00:41:10screaming and
- 00:41:11hating each other deeply and thinking the other vile and and destructive and
- 00:41:18inhuman and I like to think of myself and
- 00:41:22Right-thinking people as cowering in the ravine at the bottom
- 00:41:26Unsure what to do because on the one hand you have a nativist alt right?
- 00:41:34Bringing up all kinds of nasty and unacceptable and horrifying racist thoughts and divisions, but also you have a
- 00:41:43preposterous a
- 00:41:45liberal liberal left
- 00:41:48shouting out these jargon istic and nonsense
- 00:41:51from the universities if I have to hear about the patriarchy and
- 00:41:55cisgendered white privilege
- 00:41:57Again, I did it, you know
- 00:41:59My heart has always been with the left and that makes it all the more difficult for me to think that I just cannot
- 00:42:06And I want this is at the heart of I think all we talk about being English too dramatic
- 00:42:11Spurn JK Rowling and Isaac Newton everything the one thing they all have in common is empiricism. It's not about
- 00:42:17Knowing anything. It's not about having a point of view, which is your
- 00:42:22Strict view of things. It's about finding out
- 00:42:25experimenting and trying things out and seeing what works and I think the left has a terrible problem in rhetoric and
- 00:42:32expresses itself in a way that is
- 00:42:34Precisely, it seems designed to alienate even soft right people even ordinary Republicans who?
- 00:42:41are
- 00:42:42Maddened by what they see is the nonsense of political correctness
- 00:42:46Most left people are not you know, prey to it. But unfortunately that mouthpieces on either side are so loud
- 00:42:54And you're supposed to take a stand. I'm supposed to be on one side or the other. Well, I I just
- 00:43:00Repudiate that I wouldn't be on either side. Neither means anything to me
- 00:43:04and and so we have to run I
- 00:43:11Was thinking a lot about my friend Christopher Hitchens whose spirit is occasions like this, of course
- 00:43:15It was much stronger than I was and his great hero
- 00:43:18As a political writer and thinker was George Orwell who was much stronger and more forceful about these things than as
- 00:43:25Christopher was more strong and more forceful about these things than I am. My hero really was
- 00:43:31probably em4 Stowe's better known as a novelist but as an essayist, he had a lot to say and
- 00:43:38His attitude it's probably best summed up by one of his essays which is called two cheers for democracy
- 00:43:45he was
- 00:43:46I can't quite bring myself to
- 00:43:49Sound three. Cheers
- 00:43:50He said but two cheers is about right and he and his friend Bertrand Russell and the mayor
- 00:43:57made the point about how we live in the world that
- 00:44:02Those who are stupider are so full of certainty and and those who are wise are so unsure a
- 00:44:09WB Yeats would put it most famously in the you know, the ceremony of innocence is drowned and
- 00:44:15The best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity. Well, not home
- 00:44:19The center will not hold exactly and that's the problem being in the center, which will not hold the best
- 00:44:24Which you hope you're part of the best lack all conviction. We're not certain. We're not convinced
- 00:44:29We're not sure how the world should go forward
- 00:44:33But we see we recognize ugliness when we see it
- 00:44:36And graceless honest and unkindness and brute force and and clamouring
- 00:44:42kind of binary tearing away of everything so that you know this constant you're either with us or
- 00:44:48against us attitude and and the
- 00:44:51stuck here in the middle
- 00:44:52People say well, you know
- 00:44:55That's all very well. But that's you just being a liberal
- 00:45:00You know
- 00:45:01Squashy soft, you know, there are people dying out there
- 00:45:05They'll say you know, and yes, there are and one does you know?
- 00:45:09Look at the row hinges being massacred in
- 00:45:12and
- 00:45:13Disrupted and destroyed in Burma and and and look at you know
- 00:45:17Look at what's going on in them or all over the Yemen and Syria and places like that
- 00:45:21There's all kinds of terrible things happening
- 00:45:24But I don't I don't hear the the regressive left or the liberal liberals as I gone all the right making any fuss about that
- 00:45:31and and I I'm
- 00:45:34Desperate to know what to think
- 00:45:36I really am unsure because part of me says yes, of course all my life
- 00:45:39I fought for gay rights I fought for you know, I thought for to listen
- 00:45:43To sighs even fought at all. I've sat at a desk and tapped into keyboard
- 00:45:49Done the odd interview on the subject of gay rights, so I haven't fought at all
- 00:45:53But I have at least expressed an opinion and and and you know
- 00:45:58My heart is with you know with with people being given a fair shake of the source bottle as australians put it
- 00:46:05You know and a fair shake is it seems to be good?
- 00:46:10But we now
- 00:46:12Aren't allowed
- 00:46:13really much room for
- 00:46:15conversations of any nuance or any
- 00:46:19any doubt you have to be on one side or the other and and
- 00:46:23the world I'm convinced of it America certainly Britain and Europe are crying out for something in between and
- 00:46:31unfortunately what we've had in between in the past and it's too recent to be
- 00:46:35Forgotten in America is Bill Clinton. And in Britain was Tony Blair
- 00:46:40Both of them very impressive people in terms of their grasp of history
- 00:46:44And the mechanics and process of power and all the rest of it, but who are slightly kind of I?
- 00:46:51know disreputable in our eyes in case
- 00:46:53Britain in the case of Blair because he took us into an Iraq war which most of us think is a mistake
- 00:46:58The case of Clinton all kinds of reasons have to do with his own behavior as well
- 00:47:02And so that third way that they represented a very self-conscious Third Way
- 00:47:09is
- 00:47:10its
- 00:47:11treated with suspicion
- 00:47:14My feeling is that a true satirist and some of a true insider
- 00:47:19Jonathan Swift would actually be saying to you all and I should be saying to myself
- 00:47:23Don't look to blame politicians don't look to blame the the slogan ears on either side of the culture wars. It's not their fault
- 00:47:30It's your fault
- 00:47:32We are the ones who say oh
- 00:47:34Look at politicians. They're always just disagreeing with each other and then the moment there's a third way politician
- 00:47:39You say well, they're all the same
- 00:47:41Well mark, you can have it both ways. Do you want them all the same or do you want them all different?
- 00:47:45It's actually you are the problem you and I are the problem
- 00:47:48We want to drive around in cars and we want a green clean world where you can't have both
- 00:47:53You can't square that circle there are lots and lots of circles that can't be squared in squares that can't be circled
- 00:48:00but we lay off all our guilt or our own self discussed at our greed and our
- 00:48:07rapacity as
- 00:48:08Creatures on this earth we lay off that burden on
- 00:48:12Politicians who we pay to take our disgusting filth. That should be ended us
- 00:48:23And before we finish up and move over to the book signing there was one question
- 00:48:29I wanted just would address to both of you on this and and yesterday unfortunately
- 00:48:33You were stuck somewhere on Delta
- 00:48:36When we heard Steven Pinker speak and very optimistic that we are, you know
- 00:48:41The world is getting wealthier poverty is going down
- 00:48:45Malnutrition is going down
- 00:48:47The the economy is moving forward yet on the other hand we see
- 00:48:51Not just the political
- 00:48:53catastrophes that are happening, but also the potential
- 00:48:56environmental disasters that the UN is talking of
- 00:49:00Unfolding are you both both short-term and long-term. Are you optimistic? Are you pessimistic?
- 00:49:06Where are we going as a world?
- 00:49:09well
- 00:49:10Steven Pinker and
- 00:49:12Matt Ridley both my friends are sort of the - optimists in the world at the moment
- 00:49:21And
- 00:49:23They make they both make a persuasive case that
- 00:49:27Science can do all sorts of things and we may be in trouble in all sorts of ways but science will will find a way
- 00:49:34And if you look at the broad sweep of history things are getting better. I desperately want to believe them
- 00:49:40I
- 00:49:42Would like to try to put the optimistic case say we we are in a temporary
- 00:49:48Reversal at the moment things are not going. Well at the moment. These are going extremely badly at the moment both in Britain and America
- 00:49:57But if you do take the long view of history III think it's possible to be optimistic. So
- 00:50:06Unrealistic as it sounds I'm gonna sort of slightly set aside with Pinker and Ridley. Yeah. That's very good
- 00:50:13I agree with you Richard and I think you know a lot of
- 00:50:17Human progress has been three steps forward to back or two steps forward one back whatever, but it has been forward
- 00:50:23but this may be a step back moment where things are bad, but I think there's a lot to
- 00:50:28Think about I do some work occasionally for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation who are particularly
- 00:50:35strong on the
- 00:50:37SDGs as they're called the sustainable
- 00:50:39Development goals now is one of these dull bureaucratic phrases that it began with the Millennial goals in the year
- 00:50:452000 where all the countries the United Nations signed up to certain aims and these were refined in the year 2010
- 00:50:53Into these sustainable goals 27 of them a lot to do with the female education, for example
- 00:50:58And things that people know will transform the way that the the poorest and the most disease ridden in the world those with the fewest
- 00:51:06Opportunities in the world that can most be taken out of poverty and the results there have been a standing
- 00:51:12I mean truly amazing in that period 2002 now which many people think of as the post
- 00:51:189/11 period the period of fear of terrorism and and so on which of course it has been but in that period
- 00:51:2466
- 00:51:2766 percent greater increase in
- 00:51:30women
- 00:51:31having education around the world
- 00:51:3366% 2/3. I mean that's pretty astonishing
- 00:51:36and the results against HIV and
- 00:51:40and even the
- 00:51:42You know
- 00:51:43More resistive strains of TB and other diseases these are being controlled in ways
- 00:51:48That would have seemed impossible 15 years ago. And so in that respect things are going very well
- 00:51:54but I would agree the threat to the to the climate into the world that's being offered is
- 00:52:00it's a desperate while and also as I said that lunch today and all this is ignoring the
- 00:52:06technological transformations that are coming in the next 20 or 30 years with AI and biotech and by augmentation and
- 00:52:15Gene editing and stem cell work
- 00:52:17and I mean
- 00:52:18There's so much of it each one of these technologies on its own would be transformative
- 00:52:22But together they represent what I call it tsunami that is approaching us and a lot of that will be helpful to health
- 00:52:30Extraordinarily helpful to health will create great economies of scale the data
- 00:52:35Which become the new currency rather than petrol or the dollar data is the currency will allow all kinds of medical advances
- 00:52:43I'm convinced and I hope a more rational view of
- 00:52:48You know genetic modification of crops will allow for the immense promise they offer people are very superstitious about them as if there's a
- 00:52:56monstrous as if they're new even so I think there are all kinds of scientific possibilities that will help but I
- 00:53:03We just have to be alert and it's this is what you know, skepticism really means alertness being alive to an idea
- 00:53:10That's seeing an idea as a living thing and and in honor of my rival University Oxford
- 00:53:16For which you both come and it's a carriage man that as a great admirer of Oscar Wilde
- 00:53:20I will and just by quoting and I think this is what
- 00:53:23conventions like this do and should foster and
- 00:53:26When Oscar wrote his letter to to his old lover Posey from prison
- 00:53:31it's called De Profundis from the depths and he accuses him of a lot of betrayals and things but he's also very
- 00:53:37Complimentary to him but he says when you were at Oxford you didn't get a degree
- 00:53:40That's perfectly understandable. Many fine brains have never managed to get their degree
- 00:53:44But what I find inexcusable is that you never acquired what used to be called
- 00:53:49The Oxford manner said I know that sounds a terrible phrase
- 00:53:53But I take to mean this the ability to play gracefully with ideas
- 00:53:58Is that a wonderful thing the ability to play gracefully with ideas and I think it's very important that the skeptical rationalist
- 00:54:06a secularist atheist movement remembers to be graceful
- 00:54:11Remembers that playing with these ideas is what enlightens us
- 00:54:15Individually and fulfills us as humans as well as fulfilling
- 00:54:18I hope much more of the of the public culture that you know
- 00:54:23The understanding that ideas are to be embraced and hugged and played with and licked
- 00:54:27Enjoyed and have the juice sucked out of them and you know that there's pleasure in this it's not an earnest endeavor
- 00:54:33It's not a grim piece of work. It's it's an excitement
- 00:54:37And I think that's that will that will ensure the better future being alert and playing gracefully with ideas
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