Dmitry Gurski: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health|E1205

01:25:53
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQS2w2kYrLU

Resumo

TLDRThe video is a detailed interview with Dimitri, the co-founder of Flo, a successful period-tracking app. Dimitri narrates his journey from difficult early years in Belarus, where he learned resilience and farming. Transitioning into technology, he initially worked in the publishing sector and then moved into app development with his brother. Their journey saw the creation of 20+ apps, ultimately leading to Flo after learning from failures. Dimitri emphasizes the importance of simplicity in product design, learning from competitors, and the uniqueness of every business story. Despite operating in a saturated and competitive market, Flo succeeded due to superior product simplicity and customer retention. Despite challenges like relocating due to political unrest in Belarus, Dimitri's philosophy rooted in delivering user value and retaining a humble, non-luxurious lifestyle stood firm. He critiques overemphasis on branding, suggesting product value naturally leads to brand development. Highlighting the importance of targeted leadership and decision-making, Dimitri reflects on his commitment to ensuring a responsible business ethos. The discussion provides a nuanced view of how different factors contribute to sustainable business growth, underscoring the belief in personal perseverance over luck.

Conclusões

  • 🏆 Dimitri attributes success to simplicity in product design.
  • 🌱 His lifestyle and work ethic root back to his humble beginnings in Belarus.
  • 📈 Flo's growth was largely organic, stemming from strong user retention.
  • 🤝 Personal perseverance and nuanced strategies overrule general advice in business.
  • 🎯 Product quality is prioritized over extensive PR and branding efforts.
  • 💪 Challenges like company relocation due to political reasons were overcome with trust.
  • 🗝️ Unique business success stories don't follow general templates.
  • 📚 Learning from competitors and own past mistakes drove Flo's evolution.
  • 💡 Each decision and investment in product is crucial for long-term success.
  • 🌍 A strong focus on creating social value is central to Dimitri's philosophy.
  • 🛠️ Continuous experimentation and optimization were key to successful monetization.

Linha do tempo

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Retention is about use case, not product. The unique use case of period tracking contributes to high retention.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Simplicity in consumer products is key to success. Various successful apps preceded Flo.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Background story of hardship and learning resilience through early life experiences and mushroom business.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Journey through publishing and transition to tech with the launch of successful apps.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    Creation of successful apps, leading to Flo's success through simplicity and focus.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    General advice is often not applicable; motivation and humility play crucial roles.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Learning from users and doctors led to Flo's success despite initial lack of knowledge.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Simplicity and product focus helped Flo compete in an existing market with many competitors.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    High retention and user acquisition through word of mouth and exceptional product quality drove growth.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Initial user acquisition was organic, but quality of product led to long-term retention and growth.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:00

    Monetization was focused on value creation and retention, enhancing user experience.

  • 00:55:00 - 01:00:00

    Monetization succeeded through product differentiation and effective communication of value.

  • 01:00:00 - 01:05:00

    Scaling involved understanding pricing and subscription dynamics to optimize revenue.

  • 01:05:00 - 01:10:00

    Challenges in maintaining product simplicity amidst growth and feature expansion were highlighted.

  • 01:10:00 - 01:15:00

    Fundraising revealed cultural challenges in perception, emphasizing persistence and resilience.

  • 01:15:00 - 01:20:00

    Discusses personal philosophy on humility, luxury, and the responsibility of wealth.

  • 01:20:00 - 01:25:53

    Insights on learning from mistakes, staying focused, and the family dynamic in business.

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Mapa mental

Mind Map

Perguntas frequentes

  • Who is Dimitri?

    Dimitri is the co-founder of the app Flo, a period-tracking app.

  • What challenges did Dimitri face growing up?

    Dimitri grew up in difficult times in Belarus during the 1990s, with financial hardships and the necessity to grow their own food.

  • How did Dimitri get into technology?

    Dimitri initially worked in book publishing, authored computer books, and later transitioned to mobile apps after the App Store was launched.

  • What is Dimitri's view on simplicity in products?

    Dimitri believes that simplicity is crucial for consumer-facing products, more so than the number of features.

  • How did Flo achieve initial growth?

    Flo achieved initial growth through a focus on product quality, leading to high retention, organic growth, and word-of-mouth referrals.

  • Why does Dimitri not prioritize PR and branding?

    Dimitri focuses on product development rather than spending on PR and branding, as he believes product quality is paramount.

  • What was a significant challenge for Flo as a company?

    A significant challenge was relocating the company due to political instability in Belarus, which affected the team emotionally and operationally.

  • What is Dimitri's take on general advice?

    Dimitri advises against following general advice, as each situation is unique and requires its own approach.

  • How does Dimitri view monetary success?

    Dimitri views money as less important than living an interesting, meaningful life and aims to give back to society.

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  • 00:00:00
    like smart people they work in McKenzie
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    and Founders they're crazy for consumers
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    Simplicity is much more significant than
  • 00:00:08
    number of features is much more
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    significant than anything what many
  • 00:00:11
    people don't understand that retention
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    is not about product retention is about
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    user case it means that you may create
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    the perfect app for gym will have
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    terrible retention why because gyms
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    themselves have terrible retention never
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    take general advice always if
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    you look on history of any company or
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    anyo you would see that everything is so
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    nuanced everything is so unique
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    thousands of ways to be successful and
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    you just should choose your way ready to
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    [Music]
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    go Dimitri I am such a fan of The
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    Incredible Journey with Flo so first off
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    thank you so much for joining me today
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    thank you for you for inviting not at
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    all listen I've wanted to make this
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    happen for a while I would love to start
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    I I read actually an interview you done
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    before and I heard that you had a single
  • 00:01:07
    mother who worked as a librarian uh you
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    got your first job at 16 take me to that
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    how did those early years shape you as
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    an
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    entrepreneur as as I see you I'm not so
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    young I'm 41 years old and uh my
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    childhood was in '90s in belus difficult
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    times like the world Soviet world was
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    destroyed
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    like everything ruined people didn't
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    have ceries shelters were empty cery of
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    my mother was maybe 30 bucks and nothing
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    to buy because shelters in shops were
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    empty and uh we were growing our own
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    food we had potato field vegetables in
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    this field we had Garden we were making
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    like hundreds of jars of pickles and
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    mostly we we're feeding ourselves by
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    this production like I still don't like
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    potato
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    honestly I can't eat anymore uh but it
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    was a good life lesson it was lesson of
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    farming and the lesson of farming teach
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    you just can't fake farming it means
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    that you should uh take potato not eat
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    it immediately even if you're hungry and
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    you should put this potato to ground and
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    uh then you must this potato next day
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    and even one month after you should WR
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    and then you should work hard and you
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    should you can't fake this job and then
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    it's like you never have 100% of chances
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    that you would get your potato back
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    because I don't know it may be hail it
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    may be froze it may bux but then if you
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    lucky and you work hard then you will
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    get your Harvest but also it's a lesson
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    of diversification because you should
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    have not just potato you also should
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    have vegetables and garden because like
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    if it's like bad Harvest of uh potatoes
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    and vegetables or apples or something
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    and like something you will have to eat
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    but you can't fake that tetri what was
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    your first business you said that you
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    know your first job was at s what was
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    your first business my first job for
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    money was uh Gathering of
  • 00:03:24
    mushrooms and uh we had uh two types of
  • 00:03:28
    kids in our Village uh gatherers of
  • 00:03:32
    berries and gatherers of mushrooms and
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    it was two different types of businesses
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    because in case of berries you're like
  • 00:03:40
    just sit on the same place in the wood
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    and approximately you may gather the
  • 00:03:45
    same volume of berries per day and
  • 00:03:47
    stable income in case of mushrooms you
  • 00:03:50
    should walk around the wood and if you
  • 00:03:52
    like you may get much mushrooms and even
  • 00:03:55
    a lot of money but another day you would
  • 00:03:58
    get nothing and and psychologically all
  • 00:04:01
    kids were divided on two categories who
  • 00:04:04
    prefer fixed income or who preferred
  • 00:04:07
    like a mushroom Gathering and I and my
  • 00:04:10
    brother we always were mushrooms
  • 00:04:12
    gatherers we've always preferred like to
  • 00:04:16
    take a chance for bigger gains and to
  • 00:04:19
    have this journey around the wood rather
  • 00:04:21
    than to sit on the place for fixed
  • 00:04:23
    income demet you how does this work how
  • 00:04:26
    do you go from mushroom Gathering and
  • 00:04:29
    farming potato potatoes and that very
  • 00:04:32
    wholesome upbringing in that respect to
  • 00:04:34
    founding one of the largest female how
  • 00:04:37
    do you get into technology first between
  • 00:04:40
    mushroom Gathering and founding of FL
  • 00:04:44
    was 20 years it means that it was a long
  • 00:04:47
    professional Journey before we founded
  • 00:04:50
    Flo uh and I spent half of my
  • 00:04:54
    professional life in book publishing and
  • 00:04:57
    uh I wrote B books by myself computer
  • 00:05:00
    books and uh then we worked with my
  • 00:05:04
    brother in for publishing house and then
  • 00:05:06
    we started our own publishing house and
  • 00:05:09
    I spent approximately 10 years in this
  • 00:05:12
    world world of books and I was
  • 00:05:14
    responsible for approximately 2,000
  • 00:05:17
    titles of educational books and H I had
  • 00:05:20
    a big pleasure from this work because it
  • 00:05:22
    was so material like you you're working
  • 00:05:25
    with something and you're getting
  • 00:05:27
    material result it's almost like you're
  • 00:05:29
    getting your baby and you may touch it
  • 00:05:30
    you like it was very physical pleasure
  • 00:05:33
    with this books and then uh very big
  • 00:05:37
    change happened when up store was opened
  • 00:05:40
    in 2008 and n and that moment we decided
  • 00:05:44
    to work with mobile apps and idea was
  • 00:05:47
    very simple to start from uh content
  • 00:05:51
    apps based on books and then gradually
  • 00:05:54
    gradually it's a longer story but we got
  • 00:05:57
    to flow well I mean Flo was the third
  • 00:05:59
    app that you did you did two before flow
  • 00:06:02
    what did you learn from the two before
  • 00:06:04
    flow not working that you took with you
  • 00:06:07
    to fly really we had much more than two
  • 00:06:10
    we had two attempts to create successful
  • 00:06:15
    Peri tracker but uh before floor we had
  • 00:06:18
    uh me and my brother and partners we
  • 00:06:23
    started two dozen of different apps some
  • 00:06:26
    of them successfully some of them less
  • 00:06:28
    successfully over all my brother and me
  • 00:06:32
    like we participate I participated in
  • 00:06:35
    different projects for different extent
  • 00:06:38
    uh um we had success uh with this apps
  • 00:06:43
    we had six exits up to this moment we
  • 00:06:46
    had exit to Google exit to Facebook uh
  • 00:06:48
    we started several companies uh um which
  • 00:06:53
    have has Revenue in 100 million 50
  • 00:06:57
    million it means that uh first like a
  • 00:06:59
    journey before Flor it was 5 six years
  • 00:07:02
    of work before FLW it was not so simple
  • 00:07:06
    than we just like decided we would
  • 00:07:08
    create successful Peri tracker and we
  • 00:07:10
    just started and it was immediate
  • 00:07:13
    success but even with our
  • 00:07:15
    experience like we got success with the
  • 00:07:19
    flaw from the thir attempt like the
  • 00:07:22
    first uh period tracker failed the
  • 00:07:26
    second period tracker failed and just
  • 00:07:29
    why did they fa
  • 00:07:30
    this apps what he complicated and what
  • 00:07:34
    we definitely learn from experience with
  • 00:07:37
    consumer facing product that for
  • 00:07:39
    consumers Simplicity is the most
  • 00:07:42
    significant it's much more significant
  • 00:07:43
    than number of features is much more
  • 00:07:45
    significant than anything Simplicity is
  • 00:07:47
    the key of success in consumer facing
  • 00:07:52
    products and uh probably we created uh
  • 00:07:55
    this uh first apps uh being
  • 00:08:00
    beautiful sophisticated but too
  • 00:08:02
    complicated for people it's my theory
  • 00:08:04
    but
  • 00:08:05
    honestly nobody knows it's always very
  • 00:08:08
    irrational at the beginning when we look
  • 00:08:10
    at flow you break many rules with
  • 00:08:13
    respect we're often told when it comes
  • 00:08:16
    to an idea choose a problem that you've
  • 00:08:19
    personally felt and can really empathize
  • 00:08:23
    with with respect dimetri you're
  • 00:08:26
    wonderful but you know you you don't
  • 00:08:28
    empathize with period tracking um is
  • 00:08:31
    that bad advice to choose a problem that
  • 00:08:34
    you know I would say that any general
  • 00:08:38
    advice is bad any general advice is
  • 00:08:40
    every time when you say some
  • 00:08:43
    like any sentence with every each like
  • 00:08:46
    like any general advice is bad any and
  • 00:08:51
    uh this advice is bad as well because
  • 00:08:54
    this advice is just like it assumes that
  • 00:09:00
    each situation is the same but no no no
  • 00:09:03
    like life is very nuanced and each
  • 00:09:06
    situation is very different and usually
  • 00:09:09
    when people ask this uh question they
  • 00:09:14
    assumed to different question one
  • 00:09:16
    question is if it's not about your own
  • 00:09:19
    pain how did you find
  • 00:09:22
    motivation and if it's not your pain how
  • 00:09:26
    did you find
  • 00:09:27
    knowledge and motivation and I always
  • 00:09:30
    wanted to do something meaningful it was
  • 00:09:35
    about books it was about our other heal
  • 00:09:37
    apps I have never had any motivation for
  • 00:09:39
    example to work in gambling if you
  • 00:09:42
    propose me one billion I would not take
  • 00:09:45
    your position in gambling company it's
  • 00:09:47
    just like I just don't want it's it's
  • 00:09:49
    against my values and I don't have any
  • 00:09:51
    interest to that and uh we understood
  • 00:09:54
    very well the size of problem because we
  • 00:09:56
    had the experience with health and
  • 00:09:58
    fitness apps
  • 00:10:00
    before uh but uh question about
  • 00:10:04
    knowledge we didn't have knowledge but
  • 00:10:07
    also we had humility to understand that
  • 00:10:10
    we didn't have knowledge and because of
  • 00:10:11
    that we started to analyze and we
  • 00:10:14
    started to listen users and doctors and
  • 00:10:17
    I remember that before starting FLW our
  • 00:10:19
    document about this market and potential
  • 00:10:22
    product had seven 100 Pages we making
  • 00:10:25
    still all decisions based on data and
  • 00:10:28
    based on user research I checked this
  • 00:10:30
    number up to this moment we have done in
  • 00:10:33
    flow more than 1,000 of user researchers
  • 00:10:35
    we have user research here in each
  • 00:10:38
    product team and we are talking with
  • 00:10:40
    users all the time then we combine that
  • 00:10:42
    with data from the app and we making
  • 00:10:45
    decisions subjectively and it was our
  • 00:10:48
    way to make a good product for users
  • 00:10:51
    without any all knowledge about this
  • 00:10:54
    field to listen users and doctors very
  • 00:10:57
    very careful and be very humble about
  • 00:11:00
    all knowledge how do you think about the
  • 00:11:02
    Henry Ford quote which is if if I listen
  • 00:11:05
    to my customers I'd be build a faster H
  • 00:11:08
    it may be right about uh absolutely new
  • 00:11:12
    category of something but uh when we
  • 00:11:15
    started our product our Market was
  • 00:11:18
    enough uh big and uh already formed we
  • 00:11:22
    had hundreds of competitors and some of
  • 00:11:24
    them big and some of them raised
  • 00:11:28
    significant capital and for example
  • 00:11:30
    let's imagine one of our competitors
  • 00:11:32
    glow it was started by Marx lein like a
  • 00:11:35
    key member
  • 00:11:36
    of ppal mafia they raised from Anderson
  • 00:11:39
    horovitz and Founders found 30 million
  • 00:11:42
    almost immediately they started 3 years
  • 00:11:44
    before floor and we had such competitors
  • 00:11:47
    and it was rather formed Market it was
  • 00:11:51
    not empty Market but it was also the
  • 00:11:53
    opportunity to learn from them it was
  • 00:11:55
    good opportunity to not to be a newcomer
  • 00:11:58
    but have advantage to learn from other
  • 00:12:01
    products what did you learn from them
  • 00:12:04
    and why did you beat them it's very
  • 00:12:06
    similar at the beginning with like race
  • 00:12:12
    like all cars starts
  • 00:12:15
    approximately at the same point or at
  • 00:12:17
    the same point and all cars are the same
  • 00:12:20
    and then you need like a little
  • 00:12:21
    Advantage but then when you making many
  • 00:12:24
    many many rounds like you're getting
  • 00:12:26
    more and more and more distance it means
  • 00:12:27
    that it's almost kind of before point
  • 00:12:29
    you getting a little Advantage at
  • 00:12:31
    beginning and then in years your
  • 00:12:33
    advantage is becoming huge and ultimate
  • 00:12:37
    reason behind that that uh it's a
  • 00:12:40
    flywheel like it's like just a
  • 00:12:42
    cumulative effect of many things and uh
  • 00:12:45
    at the beginning like U our apps were
  • 00:12:48
    honestly pretty much similar but then
  • 00:12:51
    probably we did some good product
  • 00:12:54
    decisions we got additional resources
  • 00:12:57
    and we started to invest to our prod
  • 00:12:59
    much more than our competitors we
  • 00:13:01
    invested to product just to product up
  • 00:13:04
    to this moment 150 million and uh we
  • 00:13:07
    mostly had engineers in Eastern Europe
  • 00:13:09
    like to understand that in standards of
  • 00:13:11
    UK or United States you should multiply
  • 00:13:13
    that on two and then we created this big
  • 00:13:16
    floor this super app because of this
  • 00:13:19
    investment and this product became so
  • 00:13:22
    good so much better than competitors and
  • 00:13:25
    it won naturally but at the beginning
  • 00:13:27
    all our products were was the same and
  • 00:13:30
    difference was very tiny so I'm an
  • 00:13:32
    investor and we chatted before about
  • 00:13:33
    some of your views on BS which was
  • 00:13:35
    entertaining um I don't like competitive
  • 00:13:38
    markets Demetri because I think it's
  • 00:13:41
    very hard to stand out I think your
  • 00:13:42
    customer acquisition costs are high your
  • 00:13:44
    churn is high product marketing is
  • 00:13:46
    difficult and I find them challenging to
  • 00:13:49
    invest in what would you say to me with
  • 00:13:52
    that mindset it's good to have good
  • 00:13:54
    competitors because uh uh you have much
  • 00:13:57
    opportunity to learn from them and good
  • 00:14:01
    competition speed up your own company
  • 00:14:03
    because you just feel this competition
  • 00:14:06
    your team feel this competition team is
  • 00:14:08
    not getting uh complacent but also it's
  • 00:14:12
    like pretty much like a fixed P
  • 00:14:14
    mentality that I like I should have a
  • 00:14:17
    monopoly to take this Pi no when you
  • 00:14:19
    have good competition Pi is getting
  • 00:14:21
    bigger because products are better like
  • 00:14:24
    customers are more educated and the
  • 00:14:25
    total Market is getting bigger of course
  • 00:14:29
    nobody wants to be in this like kind of
  • 00:14:31
    red blood like red blood Ocean Market
  • 00:14:35
    when you have tiny margin and a ton of
  • 00:14:37
    competition but uh in case if it's
  • 00:14:41
    normal competition it's it's good when
  • 00:14:43
    you first launched this V3 of flow
  • 00:14:46
    having had the two which didn't work so
  • 00:14:48
    well and the simplified flow did you
  • 00:14:51
    have immediate product Market fit take
  • 00:14:53
    me to that that moment when we launched
  • 00:14:57
    floor maybe one month ago go I
  • 00:14:59
    immediately understood that itth had
  • 00:15:02
    chance to become really big because of
  • 00:15:05
    retention I saw like a retention I had
  • 00:15:10
    never seen before and we had many apps
  • 00:15:13
    and uh I just combined two numbers like
  • 00:15:17
    total rest bar Market women and
  • 00:15:21
    retention and I understood that
  • 00:15:24
    potential is tremendous by combination
  • 00:15:26
    of this two metrics and retention is
  • 00:15:30
    really rare in health and fitness pretty
  • 00:15:32
    naturally because retention is not about
  • 00:15:34
    product retention is about user case
  • 00:15:36
    it's what many people don't understand
  • 00:15:38
    that retention is not about product
  • 00:15:40
    retention is about user case it means
  • 00:15:42
    that you may create the perfect app for
  • 00:15:44
    gym fitness app and perfect app for gym
  • 00:15:47
    will have terrible retention why because
  • 00:15:50
    gymss themselves have terrible retention
  • 00:15:53
    you know this like a gym business model
  • 00:15:56
    like to sell 1,000 membership for gym
  • 00:15:59
    with capacity in 100 people because gy
  • 00:16:01
    know that like 900 people would never
  • 00:16:04
    visit and and why apps would work better
  • 00:16:07
    than gyms of course they it's about n of
  • 00:16:10
    people they wouldn't and uh it's so rare
  • 00:16:13
    to see good retention and health and
  • 00:16:15
    fitness and when I saw that I understood
  • 00:16:18
    that it will be very huge what was it
  • 00:16:20
    about the retention numbers that you can
  • 00:16:22
    share that gave you such confidence was
  • 00:16:25
    it the D7 which is the day7 the D14 the
  • 00:16:28
    D28 was it the daily usage what was it
  • 00:16:31
    which made you go wow we have something
  • 00:16:34
    that's about longterm retention long
  • 00:16:37
    time retention it means that uh how many
  • 00:16:40
    users stays for six months and more so
  • 00:16:44
    okay so d180 which is 6 months what was
  • 00:16:47
    it it's again retention is user case
  • 00:16:50
    like you may improve retention by good
  • 00:16:53
    product or you may destroy retention by
  • 00:16:56
    bad product but the essence of attention
  • 00:16:59
    is the natural user case and natural
  • 00:17:02
    user case based
  • 00:17:04
    on natural nesty for women to organize
  • 00:17:09
    life around cycle what's you can't skip
  • 00:17:12
    that you may skip gym but you can't skip
  • 00:17:14
    period and because of that retention is
  • 00:17:17
    uh very good but then our big idea was
  • 00:17:21
    okay if it's so unique and retention is
  • 00:17:23
    so high could we build something more
  • 00:17:26
    available than period tracker based on
  • 00:17:28
    that and the ultimate reason why Flo
  • 00:17:30
    became so successful was this idea of
  • 00:17:32
    like kind of super app let's take period
  • 00:17:35
    tracker as a core product and let's
  • 00:17:38
    surround this Spirit trer by deeper
  • 00:17:41
    available Health features and content
  • 00:17:44
    and the Peri tracker would become driver
  • 00:17:47
    of requisition and more significant
  • 00:17:49
    retention but all the features around
  • 00:17:51
    would create value it's something
  • 00:17:53
    similar on Gmail ecosystem like G mail
  • 00:17:57
    itself drives acquisition retention but
  • 00:18:00
    this apps for documents editing for
  • 00:18:03
    calls Etc drives value but if you take
  • 00:18:05
    out email it would not work and the same
  • 00:18:08
    with Spirit tracker but if you don't
  • 00:18:09
    have this ecosystem is not monetizable
  • 00:18:12
    because the value is just too tiny did
  • 00:18:14
    you know that from day one I think uh we
  • 00:18:19
    concluded that uh very very early and uh
  • 00:18:24
    significantly because of our deep
  • 00:18:25
    analysis of the market I remember that
  • 00:18:28
    uh I recently reviewed my first deck for
  • 00:18:32
    our SE round in in 2016 and this idea of
  • 00:18:35
    bigle super app based on P trer was
  • 00:18:38
    already in this document it means that
  • 00:18:40
    it was very e
  • 00:18:42
    idea it just took like a n9ine years and
  • 00:18:45
    150 million of just product investment
  • 00:18:47
    he created and probably that moment we
  • 00:18:50
    didn't anticipate that it would take so
  • 00:18:52
    long and so much money so then you have
  • 00:18:55
    this moment of wow we actually have
  • 00:18:57
    something six month retention is
  • 00:19:00
    incredible how are you acquiring
  • 00:19:02
    customers at that point customer
  • 00:19:04
    acquisition from Z to a million is very
  • 00:19:06
    hard you have little brand you have
  • 00:19:08
    little word of mouth how were you
  • 00:19:10
    acquiring customers and what did that
  • 00:19:11
    look like the most significant uh was to
  • 00:19:14
    create the best product and the best
  • 00:19:16
    product means that uh users uh were
  • 00:19:20
    happy and they were providing good uh
  • 00:19:24
    ratings and then uh like system of uh
  • 00:19:28
    promo otion of App Store and Google Play
  • 00:19:30
    started to work because they have
  • 00:19:32
    algorithms which promotes good apps and
  • 00:19:34
    they usually look on retention average
  • 00:19:37
    rting other parameters and if your app
  • 00:19:39
    is really good it's like your like
  • 00:19:41
    algorithm promoting your app at the top
  • 00:19:44
    the same as this website and because the
  • 00:19:46
    product was good we got our first
  • 00:19:49
    traffic uh just organically but it was
  • 00:19:52
    General traffic based on uh like kind of
  • 00:19:55
    searches like period tracker but then
  • 00:19:58
    when because of retention we started to
  • 00:20:00
    get bigger and bigger and bigger
  • 00:20:02
    audience then Vol of mouse started to
  • 00:20:06
    work and Vol of mouse is probably the
  • 00:20:10
    single predictable way how to get
  • 00:20:11
    organic traffic because if you have a
  • 00:20:13
    big M then people would advise your
  • 00:20:16
    product and then you would start to get
  • 00:20:19
    organic traffic and now we have mostly
  • 00:20:22
    organic traffic because of va of mouse
  • 00:20:24
    rather than because of such General
  • 00:20:27
    generalistic search like uh Peri tracker
  • 00:20:30
    but again if you ask me what's
  • 00:20:33
    prerequisite of organic traffic I would
  • 00:20:35
    say retention is prerequisite of organic
  • 00:20:37
    traffic because first you need to get
  • 00:20:40
    active audience users should get happy
  • 00:20:43
    they will start to advise your product
  • 00:20:45
    and then you will get organic traffic
  • 00:20:47
    and and probably the biggest question is
  • 00:20:49
    how to get like initial audience in our
  • 00:20:51
    case we got them organically but in your
  • 00:20:55
    reality probably you must buy them it's
  • 00:20:58
    less realistic nowadays to get initial
  • 00:21:00
    audience organically so that was going
  • 00:21:02
    to be my question which is like do you
  • 00:21:04
    believe then if you build it they will
  • 00:21:06
    come or is that not the case and you
  • 00:21:09
    actually have to have a completely paid
  • 00:21:10
    strategy today it's much more difficult
  • 00:21:12
    nowadays and it used to be 10 years ago
  • 00:21:15
    much more difficult sometimes it happens
  • 00:21:18
    and very often because of
  • 00:21:21
    reality uh but in most of cases you need
  • 00:21:24
    to start this process by paid user
  • 00:21:28
    quisition but if your product is shitty
  • 00:21:31
    it will not be helpful how long did it
  • 00:21:33
    take you to get to a million users one
  • 00:21:35
    year one year was that much quicker than
  • 00:21:38
    you anticipated probably uh but also the
  • 00:21:42
    I remember again from this uh first deck
  • 00:21:47
    for uh Sid and as I understood you met
  • 00:21:50
    with our first investor FL Capital
  • 00:21:52
    Andrew yeah Andrew from Flint capital in
  • 00:21:55
    this deck you know like you're always
  • 00:21:57
    exaggerating your future in Dex from for
  • 00:22:00
    Venture capitals and of course uh like
  • 00:22:03
    we put like arrogant arogant lies to
  • 00:22:07
    this uh uh document we didn't believe in
  • 00:22:10
    this numbers um and you probably
  • 00:22:13
    shouldn't uh when you're like presenting
  • 00:22:15
    that investors and we say that ah like
  • 00:22:18
    in 2020 or 2022 we will have three or 4
  • 00:22:23
    million mon users and 3 million in
  • 00:22:26
    revenue and Company will cost uh 20
  • 00:22:28
    million probably real numbers like 10
  • 00:22:33
    times bigger at
  • 00:22:35
    least why did you get it so wrong what
  • 00:22:38
    did you not see I didn't think that uh
  • 00:22:43
    uh we would get big share of the market
  • 00:22:46
    so fast because Market was uh formed and
  • 00:22:50
    competitive and I didn't have hope to
  • 00:22:54
    get big share of this Market with
  • 00:22:56
    hundreds of competitors uh easily and uh
  • 00:23:00
    but it happened do you really think that
  • 00:23:02
    is just because you had a better product
  • 00:23:04
    ultimately yes ultimately yes because uh
  • 00:23:07
    up to the very recent times we we didn't
  • 00:23:11
    spend money for pay to requisition it
  • 00:23:13
    was organic growth and it was organic
  • 00:23:15
    growth because uh users liked our
  • 00:23:18
    products and the metrics of our product
  • 00:23:21
    were so good that App Store and Google
  • 00:23:23
    Play were promoting it but we we started
  • 00:23:26
    to spend like more or less significant
  • 00:23:28
    money for PID us acquisition maybe 2020
  • 00:23:32
    2021 before that it was like rather
  • 00:23:34
    minuscule volume why did you decide to
  • 00:23:37
    spend on paid then uh because we started
  • 00:23:39
    monetization and uh when we got
  • 00:23:42
    monetization it was just like kind of
  • 00:23:45
    you put money and you get money back you
  • 00:23:47
    put money you get money
  • 00:23:49
    back absolutely this is the case while
  • 00:23:52
    we're on that I spoke to some of your
  • 00:23:54
    team and they said well not a weakness
  • 00:23:57
    but you know something interesting about
  • 00:23:59
    Demetri is he doesn't love brand or PR
  • 00:24:02
    um and it's an interesting point because
  • 00:24:05
    most do actually why don't you like
  • 00:24:08
    brand or PR I don't understand what is
  • 00:24:12
    brand and once I try to understand uh
  • 00:24:15
    maybe two years ago I was in process of
  • 00:24:17
    hiring of Chief marketing officer and I
  • 00:24:20
    had uh maybe 30 different candidates to
  • 00:24:22
    meet and uh I was asking the same
  • 00:24:25
    question what's the brand by your
  • 00:24:27
    opinion to 30
  • 00:24:29
    and I got 30 different answers can I can
  • 00:24:32
    I give you mine yeah I think it's like
  • 00:24:34
    the way that it makes the customer feel
  • 00:24:36
    how they feel when they see your logo
  • 00:24:39
    when they touch your product that is
  • 00:24:41
    your brand what they what they say when
  • 00:24:42
    you're out of the room yeah but uh I
  • 00:24:45
    just uh don't feel that I understand
  • 00:24:49
    well this uh topic and very often people
  • 00:24:54
    they there are two words people used for
  • 00:24:59
    everything and for any situation and we
  • 00:25:01
    often without any meaning two
  • 00:25:03
    placeholders is brand and culture you
  • 00:25:06
    may describe everything by brand and you
  • 00:25:08
    may describe everything by culture but
  • 00:25:09
    usually it doesn't have any sense and
  • 00:25:11
    you need to ask clarifying questions
  • 00:25:14
    because you always may say our situation
  • 00:25:16
    is bad because we have bad brand or our
  • 00:25:18
    situation is bad because we have bad
  • 00:25:20
    culture yeah it describes everything and
  • 00:25:22
    nothing is the brand that you have with
  • 00:25:25
    flow and they talking about P I think I
  • 00:25:28
    think it's slightly different it's uh
  • 00:25:31
    it's mostly about my internal belief
  • 00:25:36
    that uh product defines everything and
  • 00:25:41
    uh I always very frugal in spending
  • 00:25:46
    money out of product it means I'm very
  • 00:25:48
    generous in spending money for product
  • 00:25:50
    and I'm very frugal very greedy to spend
  • 00:25:53
    money not for product and when I see
  • 00:25:55
    kind of budget for something like
  • 00:25:57
    several ,000 and I don't understand the
  • 00:26:00
    impact I bet I would spend this money
  • 00:26:02
    for product and I take this money and
  • 00:26:05
    move this money to product sometimes
  • 00:26:07
    even up to the up to extremes for
  • 00:26:09
    example I never use business class
  • 00:26:12
    because all the time and I I'm Running
  • 00:26:14
    Company with 200 million in Revenue
  • 00:26:16
    probably like it's the time to start
  • 00:26:18
    using business class for the COO but I
  • 00:26:21
    never use uh business class even in my
  • 00:26:24
    trips to United States even to Seattle
  • 00:26:26
    or San Francisco because all the time
  • 00:26:28
    I'm thinking okay 5 10,000 I would
  • 00:26:31
    better to pay one month of salary to
  • 00:26:34
    developer in lania then to waste this
  • 00:26:37
    money for my comfort and I was like take
  • 00:26:39
    this money and put this money Che
  • 00:26:41
    product It's My Philosophy that uh
  • 00:26:44
    product defines everything I don't think
  • 00:26:46
    I've ever had a CEO Like You on the
  • 00:26:49
    show honestly you are one of the most
  • 00:26:51
    humble people I've ever had on their
  • 00:26:53
    show and I've done 10 years of this show
  • 00:26:56
    like this is fascinating
  • 00:26:58
    do you think there's ever a point where
  • 00:27:01
    that holds you back you know flow is a
  • 00:27:03
    massive brand now people care about the
  • 00:27:06
    flow brand do you think that the uh
  • 00:27:09
    hesitation to spend money on billboards
  • 00:27:11
    brand marketing is going to hold you
  • 00:27:13
    back maybe but you know there are many
  • 00:27:17
    ways to be successful it's a very
  • 00:27:20
    simplistic way of thinking that uh there
  • 00:27:22
    is manual how to run a company like and
  • 00:27:25
    Page 100 do that
  • 00:27:28
    page 110 do that if you look on history
  • 00:27:32
    of any company or any Co you would see
  • 00:27:35
    that everything is so nuanced everything
  • 00:27:37
    is so unique every journey is so unique
  • 00:27:40
    and uh there are just nothing you may
  • 00:27:44
    say like kind of you should do that and
  • 00:27:46
    you shouldn't do that like you just
  • 00:27:48
    should understand your strength you
  • 00:27:49
    should understand your way you should
  • 00:27:51
    not do something what's natural not
  • 00:27:53
    natural for you and but then like there
  • 00:27:55
    are thousands of ways to be SU
  • 00:27:58
    successful and you just should choose
  • 00:27:59
    your weight to be successful and uh make
  • 00:28:03
    your company successful one big piece of
  • 00:28:05
    advice that's often given in startups
  • 00:28:07
    Demetri is speed is everything and
  • 00:28:10
    you've got to move really fast and
  • 00:28:13
    that's the secret to success in the
  • 00:28:14
    early days do you agree with that the
  • 00:28:17
    most significant early days is uh not to
  • 00:28:21
    die to early because usually you need to
  • 00:28:24
    iterate uh several times to find
  • 00:28:27
    something what works and uh you increase
  • 00:28:30
    speed but you waste your resources on
  • 00:28:32
    the way probably it's a b advice if you
  • 00:28:35
    combine your speed is the right spending
  • 00:28:38
    of resources and you just uh you have
  • 00:28:40
    your 1 million and it's enough to make
  • 00:28:43
    three four five iterations rather than
  • 00:28:44
    one then speed is the right word but I
  • 00:28:47
    would not say that it's about speed it's
  • 00:28:49
    about uh right distribution of resources
  • 00:28:52
    to have several chances for Success that
  • 00:28:55
    means that you need to raise in often
  • 00:28:57
    cases with consumer
  • 00:28:58
    a quite a large seed round how big was
  • 00:29:01
    your seed round it was 300,000 valuation
  • 00:29:05
    was 3 million but remember company was
  • 00:29:07
    in belus and it was 10 years ago like
  • 00:29:10
    it's everything was much cheaper but you
  • 00:29:12
    may believe that it's extremely good uh
  • 00:29:16
    300,000 at 3 million yeah yeah and
  • 00:29:18
    Company now costs like more than 1
  • 00:29:20
    billion it means that it's 300 X or yeah
  • 00:29:24
    300 x to this investment if I'm
  • 00:29:26
    calculating well
  • 00:29:29
    oh my
  • 00:29:30
    god wow okay um take me to that how was
  • 00:29:35
    the seed round they just uh decided to
  • 00:29:39
    invest to us because we had
  • 00:29:43
    successful success before with apps and
  • 00:29:46
    it was not like a so big belief in our
  • 00:29:48
    idea but more belief that ah these guys
  • 00:29:50
    will figure out something because they
  • 00:29:52
    had success before but uh and I think
  • 00:29:56
    they had arguments uh because it was so
  • 00:29:59
    contrarian idea but probably it was the
  • 00:30:03
    best or one of the best investment for
  • 00:30:06
    the fund in history of this fund like
  • 00:30:08
    you're like a a SE round investor or
  • 00:30:11
    Real Estate Investors you just need one
  • 00:30:13
    investment like that in your life and
  • 00:30:15
    you're done mean like you will be rich
  • 00:30:19
    yeah that that's the business model of
  • 00:30:20
    venture capital toet you that's why it's
  • 00:30:23
    a very good business it's one of the
  • 00:30:24
    only businesses in the world where you
  • 00:30:26
    can do a hundred things and mess up 99
  • 00:30:29
    of them can you imagine if I told you
  • 00:30:31
    you can do 99 versions of flow and 99
  • 00:30:34
    can be 98 can be
  • 00:30:35
    one's good but uh it's a to the
  • 00:30:39
    question what is the most required trait
  • 00:30:43
    of the founder and my personal opinion
  • 00:30:46
    that founder must be crazy because uh if
  • 00:30:50
    you are smart and you may understand
  • 00:30:52
    your odds like how would you do that why
  • 00:30:56
    would you decide to start something with
  • 00:30:58
    chances of success like 1 2 3 4 5% like
  • 00:31:02
    it's uh it's better to play Lottery like
  • 00:31:04
    smart people they work in McKinzie and
  • 00:31:08
    Founders they're
  • 00:31:10
    crazy because it's not rational it's
  • 00:31:12
    you're just crazy like you can't justify
  • 00:31:14
    that by any rational thinking why would
  • 00:31:17
    you do something with odds of success in
  • 00:31:19
    one person I worry that that is no
  • 00:31:22
    longer the case I agree with you crazy
  • 00:31:24
    and obsessed yeah I'm I'm I'm not too
  • 00:31:28
    dissimilar to you in these ways I'm
  • 00:31:29
    crazy and obsessed you know uh I could
  • 00:31:32
    have been a lawyer and paid very happily
  • 00:31:35
    and instead I decided to a
  • 00:31:36
    podcast which made no money but I love
  • 00:31:39
    what we do My worry is there's so much
  • 00:31:42
    money in Venture Capital that if you're
  • 00:31:45
    smart enough you can be a Founder play
  • 00:31:48
    the founder game play startups get paid
  • 00:31:53
    quite well and try it it's a free option
  • 00:31:57
    all we didn't have such luxury in our
  • 00:32:00
    days because uh but do you do you see
  • 00:32:03
    what I mean do you worry that it's the
  • 00:32:04
    same now where we don't have crazy
  • 00:32:06
    Founders like you I think uh times have
  • 00:32:11
    come back it means there was a period of
  • 00:32:14
    time between
  • 00:32:15
    approximately 2019 to 2022 when it was
  • 00:32:20
    true but nowadays it's quite difficult
  • 00:32:23
    Tois Capital it's quite difficult and I
  • 00:32:26
    think it's a it's again the same was
  • 00:32:30
    there ever an easy round to raise no
  • 00:32:33
    it's never easy but your numbers were so
  • 00:32:36
    good I saw your numbers in sensor Tower
  • 00:32:39
    I tweeted about our show and like I got
  • 00:32:42
    all of these data providers send me your
  • 00:32:43
    numbers and they are consistently great
  • 00:32:47
    because uh venture capital investment is
  • 00:32:51
    uh default no game and you may be very
  • 00:32:55
    good but in any case you will get 100
  • 00:32:59
    NOS to get one yes and what's the most
  • 00:33:03
    difficult for Founders is that she be in
  • 00:33:06
    this mindset when you every day you're
  • 00:33:09
    getting no no no no no and it's Soul
  • 00:33:12
    breaking it's really difficult even
  • 00:33:15
    layoffs are simpler because layoffs is
  • 00:33:17
    like computation cut and you just in two
  • 00:33:20
    or three weeks and you continue your
  • 00:33:22
    work but fundraising it's like just like
  • 00:33:25
    it's each day you're getting no no no no
  • 00:33:29
    no no no and you're stting to lose a
  • 00:33:34
    belief in yourself and you starting to
  • 00:33:36
    feel that maybe
  • 00:33:39
    I'm I had moments when I doubted that
  • 00:33:45
    maybe we are doing something wrong and
  • 00:33:47
    maybe I'm not a right person and for me
  • 00:33:51
    fundraising was also much more difficult
  • 00:33:53
    because of my Origins my accent and
  • 00:33:56
    because I'm kind of not kind of right
  • 00:33:59
    profile and I was pretty weird type for
  • 00:34:02
    investors it made my job of fundraising
  • 00:34:05
    much more difficult do you think that
  • 00:34:06
    made your job much more difficult do you
  • 00:34:08
    think respectfully if you sounded like
  • 00:34:10
    me as we said L not toilet uh do you
  • 00:34:14
    think that would have been easier much
  • 00:34:15
    easier much easier because uh investors
  • 00:34:20
    they especially in big fans uh uh you
  • 00:34:24
    usually start your conversation not with
  • 00:34:28
    like Partners or management Partners but
  • 00:34:30
    with analysts or with principles and uh
  • 00:34:34
    this uh people usually have profile kind
  • 00:34:37
    of graduated in Harvard and be in stford
  • 00:34:40
    or gradated in Stanford and be in
  • 00:34:42
    Harvard and they believe in people like
  • 00:34:46
    them and they don't believe in people
  • 00:34:49
    like me and it's really difficult to
  • 00:34:53
    bridge this barrier of uh this Elite
  • 00:34:58
    because they really kind of sort you out
  • 00:35:01
    and uh and uh I understand like there's
  • 00:35:04
    like many tokens about this problem that
  • 00:35:07
    mean it's so difficult to minorities of
  • 00:35:10
    any kind to race and I may say that it's
  • 00:35:13
    it's a true it's uh true because you
  • 00:35:16
    just uh sort it out at this uh level of
  • 00:35:21
    right people so I'm going to get in
  • 00:35:23
    trouble for this I think you are much
  • 00:35:25
    less fundable than
  • 00:35:28
    um a minority woman from
  • 00:35:31
    Stanford oh yeah yeah of course of
  • 00:35:33
    course of course and uh it's
  • 00:35:37
    easier nowadays when we have proven that
  • 00:35:42
    uh our product is monetizable and we may
  • 00:35:45
    achieve success but it was really
  • 00:35:48
    difficult at the beginning when I had
  • 00:35:51
    combination of my kind of weird
  • 00:35:54
    personality and all the combination of
  • 00:35:58
    disbelief in our model in our product
  • 00:36:01
    because we didn't have benchmarks to
  • 00:36:02
    show that I look like this like success
  • 00:36:05
    and we will make the same success
  • 00:36:07
    because uh it was first product of such
  • 00:36:10
    kind and nobody believed that it's
  • 00:36:12
    possible to build something monetizable
  • 00:36:14
    or successful my question to you is okay
  • 00:36:16
    so then we start monetization that's a
  • 00:36:18
    new game we got to prove that we can
  • 00:36:20
    make money now we proved that we've got
  • 00:36:22
    users who love it how did monetization
  • 00:36:25
    go like we turn it on how how did it go
  • 00:36:28
    monetization is uh interesting because
  • 00:36:31
    uh and I'm coming back
  • 00:36:34
    to uh our discussion about brand and PR
  • 00:36:37
    like our big mistake at the very
  • 00:36:40
    beginning was belief that uh it's enough
  • 00:36:43
    to create value and people would buy but
  • 00:36:46
    then we started to understand that also
  • 00:36:48
    we need to sell we need to explain
  • 00:36:50
    product we need to
  • 00:36:52
    experiment and uh we started to do that
  • 00:36:55
    and just one number conversion premium
  • 00:36:58
    on on boarding increased in several
  • 00:37:01
    years eight times 800% because of
  • 00:37:05
    optimization because of hundreds of ab
  • 00:37:07
    tests and because of this approach that
  • 00:37:09
    we should not just create value we need
  • 00:37:11
    to explain value we need to sell and it
  • 00:37:14
    was huge mind huge shift in mindset in
  • 00:37:17
    the company because before that you kind
  • 00:37:19
    of ah it's significant is just to create
  • 00:37:22
    the best product and people will see and
  • 00:37:24
    buy no no you also should explain why
  • 00:37:27
    they should buy even Apple spend the
  • 00:37:30
    much resources to explain that uh you're
  • 00:37:32
    not like arriving to shop and you're
  • 00:37:35
    getting your iPhone in gray box it
  • 00:37:37
    should be beautiful it should be very
  • 00:37:40
    attractive and the same with
  • 00:37:41
    monetization it's a balance between
  • 00:37:43
    value and how you sell this value and uh
  • 00:37:47
    uh you should find proper balance
  • 00:37:49
    between that you may be too focused on
  • 00:37:52
    uh selling and uh like over promise or
  • 00:37:57
    you may may be like as we did at the
  • 00:37:59
    beginning you may create value but you
  • 00:38:02
    may unell and everything should be right
  • 00:38:04
    it should be right BS I think you
  • 00:38:06
    consistently undersell I spoke to many
  • 00:38:09
    of your investors and they said that
  • 00:38:10
    you're their best founder but you
  • 00:38:12
    undersell yourself consistently when you
  • 00:38:15
    think about how to sell value and you
  • 00:38:18
    produce value and then there's how to
  • 00:38:20
    sell it what did you learn about how to
  • 00:38:22
    sell value through the monetization
  • 00:38:24
    process what I am some like maybe I
  • 00:38:28
    first question about this comment that
  • 00:38:31
    uh I can't sell myself no can't you
  • 00:38:34
    unell that's uh you're too humble it's
  • 00:38:37
    pretty natural because of uh my imposter
  • 00:38:40
    syndrome and inferiority complex and I'm
  • 00:38:43
    not even playing it's my PR Natural
  • 00:38:45
    State but also I think it's my
  • 00:38:47
    superpower because I'm always so I can
  • 00:38:51
    insecure about uh my position position
  • 00:38:55
    of the company that I'm always trying to
  • 00:38:57
    to do my job the best because I never
  • 00:39:00
    feel comfortable and uh it's a my pral
  • 00:39:04
    state and I believe that big part of my
  • 00:39:06
    success is just because of my imposter
  • 00:39:08
    syndrome and it's a like strange way you
  • 00:39:12
    get your superpower but what is uh true
  • 00:39:16
    has that got better with time Flo now
  • 00:39:19
    does 200 million in Revenue it is is
  • 00:39:22
    worth over a billion dollars do you have
  • 00:39:25
    less impostor inm no
  • 00:39:28
    no I would even say that I'm getting
  • 00:39:31
    more anxiety because now my
  • 00:39:33
    responsibilities are even bigger I
  • 00:39:35
    always like for me this round was kind
  • 00:39:37
    of you may imagine that this like a
  • 00:39:39
    sport when you're jumping like through
  • 00:39:41
    the bar and and when when you're
  • 00:39:44
    progressing you put your bar high and
  • 00:39:45
    high and one moment like my bar became 1
  • 00:39:50
    M high and I look on this bar and this
  • 00:39:54
    and Waring like could I jump so high
  • 00:39:57
    could don't I at least I will make the
  • 00:39:59
    best
  • 00:40:01
    attempt I I love it it's just so rare
  • 00:40:03
    you know we interview a lot of American
  • 00:40:05
    Founders Demetri and the humility that
  • 00:40:07
    you have is is not shared by a lot of
  • 00:40:09
    them what were the biggest challenges
  • 00:40:12
    then as you started to scale
  • 00:40:13
    monetization what really became tough
  • 00:40:16
    what really changed what we didn't
  • 00:40:19
    understand uh when we started
  • 00:40:20
    monetization 7 years ago that habit to
  • 00:40:23
    pay of people for subscription is
  • 00:40:26
    changing because when we we started
  • 00:40:28
    monetization our dream was maybe we
  • 00:40:31
    would monetize 5% of American audience
  • 00:40:34
    because that time it was quite a bar now
  • 00:40:37
    we monetized maybe if you exclude
  • 00:40:39
    teenagers 25 30% of our American
  • 00:40:42
    audience and we don't see that uh our
  • 00:40:46
    monetization is slowing down but it's
  • 00:40:48
    not just because the product is becoming
  • 00:40:50
    better what's true it's not just because
  • 00:40:52
    of our experimentation what's true it's
  • 00:40:54
    also because people accepted idea to pay
  • 00:40:57
    for subscriptions and it was huge
  • 00:40:59
    cultural change it uh uh and without
  • 00:41:02
    that uh it would be impossible cultural
  • 00:41:05
    shift did you test pricing a lot I know
  • 00:41:08
    what a data driven culture you have when
  • 00:41:10
    you look at the pricing that you have
  • 00:41:12
    what are your biggest lessons that you
  • 00:41:14
    have from pricing the biggest lesson
  • 00:41:16
    from pricing that uh you should not make
  • 00:41:19
    your decision just based on price you
  • 00:41:21
    should understand uh the full funnel
  • 00:41:25
    because uh uh you may increase your
  • 00:41:27
    price but you would decrease retention
  • 00:41:29
    or activation or you would destroy your
  • 00:41:31
    user acquisition and then your ultimate
  • 00:41:34
    Revenue would be small it means that
  • 00:41:36
    ultimately you should decide based on
  • 00:41:38
    Top Line and bottom line in your pel and
  • 00:41:41
    optimized for that and then all this
  • 00:41:44
    internal parameters you should look on
  • 00:41:47
    them together because you should
  • 00:41:49
    optimize the function of many variables
  • 00:41:52
    if you talk about mathematics because uh
  • 00:41:54
    it's not just about optimizing of price
  • 00:41:56
    it's about optimizing of five six
  • 00:41:59
    variables simultaneously and you should
  • 00:42:01
    optimize them to find like the best
  • 00:42:03
    combination when you're getting the most
  • 00:42:06
    revenue from your product can I ask on
  • 00:42:08
    the premium versus premium split what
  • 00:42:11
    have been some big lessons in how to
  • 00:42:13
    provide enough value in premium where
  • 00:42:16
    they retain and they love your product
  • 00:42:19
    but also keep enough value in premium
  • 00:42:22
    where they're willing to pay for it and
  • 00:42:23
    make that transition I think just
  • 00:42:25
    experimentation uh usually we deciding
  • 00:42:29
    that based on experiments we when we
  • 00:42:32
    creating something and they're deciding
  • 00:42:34
    to make it free or put behind pay wall
  • 00:42:37
    we testing to see how it would influence
  • 00:42:40
    Revenue but also how it would influence
  • 00:42:42
    retention and uh for us it's always
  • 00:42:45
    balance of two metric and we would never
  • 00:42:48
    accept uh uh experiment which would
  • 00:42:51
    increase Revenue a lot but also which
  • 00:42:54
    would destroy retention and it's a
  • 00:42:57
    combination of this two metrics the best
  • 00:42:59
    is like when retention is the same but
  • 00:43:02
    revenue is growing so when did we know
  • 00:43:05
    monetization was working when did you
  • 00:43:07
    look at it and go okay we've got a good
  • 00:43:09
    machine here in Cas of subcription
  • 00:43:11
    monetization the most significant is the
  • 00:43:14
    retention because uh if you are very
  • 00:43:17
    good in selling probably you may
  • 00:43:20
    convince people to pay for almost
  • 00:43:23
    anything uh but uh much more tricky is
  • 00:43:26
    that he provides so good service then
  • 00:43:29
    they would continue paying and uh uh
  • 00:43:33
    retention should be good and uh it's the
  • 00:43:36
    main sign of success of this business
  • 00:43:38
    model but this business model I believe
  • 00:43:40
    is the best model to create good product
  • 00:43:43
    because your incentives are aligned with
  • 00:43:45
    user because user pay just when you
  • 00:43:49
    create long-term value and it motivates
  • 00:43:52
    you to create long-term value because if
  • 00:43:53
    for example you monetize your product I
  • 00:43:55
    don't know by onetime payment then you
  • 00:43:58
    would optimize for conversion if you
  • 00:44:00
    monetize your product by advertising
  • 00:44:02
    probably you would try to increase
  • 00:44:04
    engagement as possible what we see in
  • 00:44:05
    media but in case of subscription you're
  • 00:44:08
    real optimized for Value because your
  • 00:44:10
    model works just when users stay and
  • 00:44:12
    continue to pay for years or it would be
  • 00:44:14
    just a trade meal and you would exhaust
  • 00:44:17
    grow very very fast so we have that
  • 00:44:20
    monetization engine working how long did
  • 00:44:22
    it take to get to a million in in
  • 00:44:24
    Revenue million is very simple it's
  • 00:44:27
    I don't million is very simple like 100
  • 00:44:31
    million is much more difficult so
  • 00:44:33
    Millions is very very simple how long
  • 00:44:36
    did it take to get to 100 million in
  • 00:44:37
    Revenue four years maybe wow but we had
  • 00:44:42
    the substantial audience when we started
  • 00:44:44
    monetization because we started
  • 00:44:45
    monetization in
  • 00:44:47
    2018 and product existed for three years
  • 00:44:50
    up to this how many users did you have
  • 00:44:52
    when you started that mation Journey
  • 00:44:55
    maybe 15 20 million w
  • 00:44:58
    w wow that's incredible is there
  • 00:45:01
    anything that you do differently about
  • 00:45:02
    how you launched monetization now you
  • 00:45:05
    know everything that you do I would do
  • 00:45:07
    that much earlier because uh start of
  • 00:45:11
    monetization unlocked for us fly whe of
  • 00:45:14
    value creation and it's very simple when
  • 00:45:16
    you start monetization you're getting
  • 00:45:18
    revenue and you may use this Revenue to
  • 00:45:21
    build product or to raise big around and
  • 00:45:23
    then you create better product and fly
  • 00:45:26
    whe starts to work but then you invest
  • 00:45:28
    more and more and more and distance
  • 00:45:30
    between you and competitors is getting
  • 00:45:32
    bigger and bigger and when you don't
  • 00:45:34
    have monetization you should be very
  • 00:45:36
    Scrappy and development is uh like very
  • 00:45:39
    frugal and development is very slow I
  • 00:45:42
    completely hear you on retention being
  • 00:45:44
    so important to any consumer app my
  • 00:45:46
    question to you is you know bluntly
  • 00:45:49
    given the use case being periods um it's
  • 00:45:52
    probably one of the only use cases in
  • 00:45:54
    consumer that is literally you you can't
  • 00:45:58
    avoid it you know anything from like
  • 00:46:00
    eating you can fast you can gym you can
  • 00:46:04
    not go to the gym is this a oneof case
  • 00:46:08
    that can't be replicated in health and
  • 00:46:10
    fitness uh it's difficult to find the
  • 00:46:14
    cases with good retention there are some
  • 00:46:16
    cases for example variable devices they
  • 00:46:20
    have very good retention just because
  • 00:46:21
    you have physically them and have you
  • 00:46:23
    thought about doing devices no no no no
  • 00:46:26
    no because because you always should be
  • 00:46:29
    focused you always should be focused
  • 00:46:31
    once I got very good lesson
  • 00:46:35
    from vard host like a founder of Hosta
  • 00:46:39
    Adventures many years ago and uh that
  • 00:46:43
    moment our company was uh big enough and
  • 00:46:46
    we had many ideas how to build our
  • 00:46:49
    product and many ideas for monetization
  • 00:46:51
    like because audience was big and I was
  • 00:46:54
    speeching to him describing we may do
  • 00:46:56
    that that and that and that and at the
  • 00:46:57
    end of my pach I asked him like V uh you
  • 00:47:01
    have experienced could you give me just
  • 00:47:03
    one advice but like the most valuable
  • 00:47:05
    you think for me and he said like young
  • 00:47:08
    man business and product building is
  • 00:47:12
    very similar to marriage you have many
  • 00:47:14
    opportunities before your marriage but
  • 00:47:16
    to be happy you should choose one and
  • 00:47:18
    really focus and my advice to you choose
  • 00:47:21
    one business model and be really focused
  • 00:47:24
    and uh I learned this lesson and was
  • 00:47:27
    very focused since and I I had a huge
  • 00:47:30
    resistance to all proposals to take any
  • 00:47:34
    other
  • 00:47:34
    opportunities I love that and vard's
  • 00:47:37
    fantastic my question to you is does the
  • 00:47:39
    super app not go against Focus because
  • 00:47:41
    with the super app mentality you are
  • 00:47:43
    building multiple products in in the
  • 00:47:45
    same time simultaneously versus purely
  • 00:47:48
    focusing on one product at a time are
  • 00:47:52
    are they paradoxical yeah for some
  • 00:47:54
    extent but you may solve this problem by
  • 00:47:57
    orc structure you may create teams which
  • 00:48:00
    solely focused on own part of the
  • 00:48:03
    product and for them it's a single
  • 00:48:05
    product and they have full focus on this
  • 00:48:07
    product and in our company each team has
  • 00:48:10
    own part of product to own then you have
  • 00:48:13
    like a difficulty to combine all this
  • 00:48:16
    parts to the single experience and it's
  • 00:48:18
    not easy it's very challenging but it's
  • 00:48:20
    the way how to have focus in the case of
  • 00:48:23
    super app what have been the biggest
  • 00:48:25
    lessons in how to create that
  • 00:48:27
    synchronicity between the different
  • 00:48:28
    parts it's extremely difficult we still
  • 00:48:32
    struggling is that the biggest weakness
  • 00:48:34
    that you have today do you think I think
  • 00:48:36
    it's really significant to save
  • 00:48:40
    Simplicity of our product because each
  • 00:48:43
    year we have deep research of our user
  • 00:48:45
    base what is the most significant for
  • 00:48:47
    them in our product and for seven or
  • 00:48:50
    eight years in a row the most popular
  • 00:48:52
    answer Simplicity Simplicity nothing
  • 00:48:54
    else and the biggest
  • 00:48:57
    uh mistake we might do is we might do is
  • 00:49:01
    to destroy this Simplicity because it's
  • 00:49:03
    the essence of our success and is the
  • 00:49:05
    essence of success for any product and
  • 00:49:08
    it's really difficult to have Simplicity
  • 00:49:11
    when you have so many features and when
  • 00:49:13
    you have this concept of super app it is
  • 00:49:15
    it's it's one of the hardest things it's
  • 00:49:16
    how do you prevent feature creep with
  • 00:49:18
    time and stay simple over time so we
  • 00:49:21
    have that success with
  • 00:49:23
    monetization now we get to the series a
  • 00:49:26
    and the the B I think how was the series
  • 00:49:29
    A's and B's it was always uh difficult
  • 00:49:34
    did you enjoy the meetings or not
  • 00:49:35
    already no because uh you need to meet
  • 00:49:39
    hundreds of investors and repeat the
  • 00:49:41
    same and at some moment it's just boring
  • 00:49:45
    like you're just repeating the same the
  • 00:49:46
    same again again again again it's just
  • 00:49:49
    boring was there one or two that stood
  • 00:49:51
    out I'm not trying to flutter them but
  • 00:49:54
    uh uh and my answer is honest but I was
  • 00:49:57
    really impressed by General Atlantic and
  • 00:50:00
    at the end of this process we had five
  • 00:50:03
    biders and I had really big hope that J
  • 00:50:07
    Atlantic would not provide a bad term sh
  • 00:50:10
    because they showed so much better
  • 00:50:13
    understanding of our business model and
  • 00:50:14
    show so deep approach then they really
  • 00:50:18
    impressed me by the depth of uh work and
  • 00:50:22
    I'm really happy by this outcome I'm not
  • 00:50:24
    even flattering it's not my nature but I
  • 00:50:27
    was kind of what did they do to impress
  • 00:50:29
    you so much firstly they had very deep
  • 00:50:34
    understanding of our business model
  • 00:50:36
    because of previous investment to Dingo
  • 00:50:38
    and CH and similar companies and it's
  • 00:50:41
    really rare to see investor with deep
  • 00:50:44
    understanding of consumer subscriptions
  • 00:50:45
    because there are not so many successful
  • 00:50:48
    consumer subscriptions and just several
  • 00:50:50
    public companies based on this business
  • 00:50:51
    model and most investors they just don't
  • 00:50:54
    understand this business model they
  • 00:50:55
    confuse it with some s and they're
  • 00:50:58
    making very wrong conclusions because of
  • 00:51:00
    that what are the wrong conclusions that
  • 00:51:02
    I would make comparing it SAS for
  • 00:51:05
    example you may
  • 00:51:07
    apply the idea that uh retention should
  • 00:51:12
    be very high because if you lose your
  • 00:51:14
    customer you lose it forever and it uh
  • 00:51:17
    it's the fact for B2B but it's not the
  • 00:51:19
    fact for b2c because in b2c in case of
  • 00:51:21
    consumer face naaps customers come
  • 00:51:24
    customers go customers come back
  • 00:51:26
    customers go we already have maybe 40%
  • 00:51:29
    of installs from users who used our app
  • 00:51:32
    previously and uh because of that you
  • 00:51:34
    should analyze not like retention itself
  • 00:51:38
    but uh retention of revenue for example
  • 00:51:40
    you should analyze how Cort behave in
  • 00:51:42
    time and what you what Revenue you
  • 00:51:45
    getting because of this behavior that
  • 00:51:47
    people are coming back and forth they
  • 00:51:49
    stop subcription they start subscription
  • 00:51:51
    and you just can't apply this very
  • 00:51:53
    simplistic logic of business s that if
  • 00:51:55
    people pay
  • 00:51:57
    and then they CH they will never come
  • 00:51:59
    back or they will never start paying
  • 00:52:01
    again it means that logic in analysis of
  • 00:52:04
    retention should be very different do
  • 00:52:06
    you think the consumer multiple hit that
  • 00:52:09
    happens with consumer revenue is fair so
  • 00:52:12
    if we look at say flow 200 million at a
  • 00:52:15
    billion that's a 5x that is much lower
  • 00:52:19
    than traditional enterprise software
  • 00:52:21
    companies would be afforded you know I
  • 00:52:24
    I'm sad to admit that I'm inv invested
  • 00:52:26
    in a SAS business that is at 7 million
  • 00:52:28
    in AR and valued at 1.3 billion I think
  • 00:52:32
    U for current market v may check this
  • 00:52:35
    number but uh average multiple to
  • 00:52:38
    revenue for public SAS at this moment is
  • 00:52:41
    close to eight and it was five last year
  • 00:52:45
    and it was 30 or so in 2021 it means
  • 00:52:48
    that it's declined five or six times as
  • 00:52:51
    well it means that uh do you think
  • 00:52:54
    that's right like
  • 00:52:57
    it's Market but do you think we
  • 00:52:59
    underappreciate consumer Revenue do do
  • 00:53:02
    you agree that uh in rational world
  • 00:53:05
    world rational world you can't have uh
  • 00:53:09
    in 2021 multiple 30 40 and in
  • 00:53:14
    2022 multiple five for the same company
  • 00:53:18
    like it's Market is not rational there's
  • 00:53:20
    a brilliant statement which is the
  • 00:53:22
    market can stay irrational longer than
  • 00:53:24
    your company can stay solvent
  • 00:53:27
    uh yeah yeah it's a it's and because of
  • 00:53:30
    that like even kind of conversation
  • 00:53:33
    about like what's fair price it's
  • 00:53:36
    useless because markets are irrational
  • 00:53:38
    like nothing is rational that there's
  • 00:53:40
    like a two years difference between uh
  • 00:53:43
    two events and uh in one event this
  • 00:53:46
    company cost 30 revenues and in another
  • 00:53:48
    event like five revenues and like you
  • 00:53:51
    may understand crisis you may understand
  • 00:53:52
    that rate was 2% higher or 2% lower but
  • 00:53:56
    it's not like a reason why company would
  • 00:53:58
    cost like five or six times uh higher or
  • 00:54:01
    lower it means that it's just reflection
  • 00:54:04
    that markets are very irrational and
  • 00:54:06
    price is irrational as well and again
  • 00:54:09
    it's a question when you're making
  • 00:54:11
    justification of future value of the
  • 00:54:13
    company based on current uh Market
  • 00:54:16
    multiples are you trying to lie to
  • 00:54:18
    yourself or so so because uh like uh who
  • 00:54:21
    knows if markets change Dynamic five
  • 00:54:24
    times in few years do you think in five
  • 00:54:26
    years time we'll have five plus $10
  • 00:54:29
    billion consumer subscription companies
  • 00:54:31
    we have duelingo today which is kind of
  • 00:54:33
    9 N and a half I believe maybe today 10
  • 00:54:35
    I need to check yesterday it was almost
  • 00:54:37
    10 okay so let's give it a 10 let's say
  • 00:54:40
    we give it a 10 but that's kind of it I
  • 00:54:42
    think uh we will have them because uh
  • 00:54:46
    this business uh model is growing and
  • 00:54:50
    you may just check numbers of apple and
  • 00:54:53
    you may see that uh Apple got from
  • 00:54:57
    consumer subscription in 2017 I know 5
  • 00:54:59
    billion and it's projected that we'll
  • 00:55:02
    get maybe 100 billion or so next year
  • 00:55:05
    like model is growing and because model
  • 00:55:08
    is growing then we'll have huge
  • 00:55:10
    companies do you think VC's provide
  • 00:55:12
    value of course what value do you think
  • 00:55:15
    we provide we have one uh I not maybe I
  • 00:55:21
    may share because he joked in Twitter we
  • 00:55:25
    have a
  • 00:55:27
    like early stage investor Nikita beer
  • 00:55:30
    very nice product you have nik's an
  • 00:55:32
    investor yeah yeah like a small investor
  • 00:55:34
    but he invested early and uh he joked
  • 00:55:38
    recently that uh the single role of
  • 00:55:42
    investor is that he outrage entrepreneur
  • 00:55:46
    and then entrepreneur have the full
  • 00:55:48
    energy to prove investor that he's wrong
  • 00:55:51
    and of course it's a joke but it's
  • 00:55:53
    partly true but I would say that good
  • 00:55:56
    investor May create ton of value by
  • 00:55:59
    proper work in the Bo and good board
  • 00:56:02
    brings ton of value and the biggest
  • 00:56:05
    value from the board that uh you're just
  • 00:56:08
    accountable and you have moments of
  • 00:56:10
    Truth like board meetings when you need
  • 00:56:12
    to make proper reflection prepare proper
  • 00:56:15
    materials and explain future explain
  • 00:56:18
    past and without board meetings you
  • 00:56:19
    would never have uh patience or energy
  • 00:56:22
    to do that but when you have such
  • 00:56:24
    moments of reflection then your business
  • 00:56:25
    is getting better because you're just
  • 00:56:27
    reflecting all the time and good
  • 00:56:29
    investors they been part of the board
  • 00:56:31
    they may provide good advice they may
  • 00:56:34
    make you bet it's almost kind of uh if
  • 00:56:36
    you have like a like coach like like
  • 00:56:39
    what's the difference between having
  • 00:56:40
    coach or visiting gym by
  • 00:56:43
    yourself accountability accountability
  • 00:56:46
    accountability is really significant for
  • 00:56:47
    Success what do annoying VCS do I want
  • 00:56:51
    to be the best VC we Jed about me being
  • 00:56:52
    a VC in my nth year but I want to be the
  • 00:56:55
    best VC and I care passionately about
  • 00:56:57
    that if you were to advise me Harry I've
  • 00:57:00
    met hundreds of VCS who said no don't do
  • 00:57:03
    these things what would those things be
  • 00:57:05
    if you meet like a first time
  • 00:57:09
    entrepreneur start your pitch from
  • 00:57:11
    explaining that uh it's normal and it's
  • 00:57:15
    default play for V to say no and it's
  • 00:57:18
    nothing personal and uh uh like you
  • 00:57:22
    should just like understand rules of
  • 00:57:25
    games and uh and just like put on your
  • 00:57:30
    wall like kind of billboard like right
  • 00:57:33
    like I will get 100 Nos and each time
  • 00:57:35
    you're getting no like put like just one
  • 00:57:37
    line and you should be very
  • 00:57:42
    very you should understand rules of the
  • 00:57:44
    game and it should not be like a
  • 00:57:46
    personal for you because you should that
  • 00:57:49
    you per say no when you get nose I I get
  • 00:57:53
    nose I fund raise too for my funds when
  • 00:57:55
    I get no I'm like I'm going to prove you
  • 00:57:59
    wrong it's a very very
  • 00:58:01
    significant driving force for success in
  • 00:58:04
    the case of many people is it for you
  • 00:58:07
    for some extent
  • 00:58:11
    uh for some extent but uh it was more
  • 00:58:16
    significant for me at the beginning
  • 00:58:17
    because uh at the beginning all people
  • 00:58:20
    around were so skeptical about our
  • 00:58:22
    business and idea and not just investors
  • 00:58:24
    and I had this bitterness all the time
  • 00:58:28
    that I didn't have any understanding of
  • 00:58:30
    our vision and any support and then when
  • 00:58:33
    we proved that our ideas are worthy and
  • 00:58:37
    this is a good sustainable business then
  • 00:58:40
    it became easy I get that totally do you
  • 00:58:42
    feel Vindicated now for everyone who
  • 00:58:45
    didn't believe in you who was like H
  • 00:58:48
    they don't know what they're doing do
  • 00:58:49
    you feel no because I'm just uh trying
  • 00:58:54
    like look like uh like
  • 00:58:56
    being just like a rational like like
  • 00:58:59
    some like weird folks from belus
  • 00:59:02
    starting through tracker and promising
  • 00:59:05
    that it will become unicorn and there
  • 00:59:08
    are no like examples of that and uh why
  • 00:59:11
    would you believe in that like like
  • 00:59:14
    nobody who is rational would believe in
  • 00:59:16
    that it's it was now it's so evident but
  • 00:59:19
    at that moment it was pretty rational
  • 00:59:21
    not to believe I get you it's just sad
  • 00:59:23
    our job is to believe in the outliers
  • 00:59:25
    it's to believe the best in people yeah
  • 00:59:29
    that's that's how I view our job I think
  • 00:59:31
    uh the main job of uh IL EST investor is
  • 00:59:36
    to distinguish cases with 100% of fail
  • 00:59:43
    with cases 99% of failure and cases with
  • 00:59:48
    small potential outcome and big
  • 00:59:49
    potential outcome and you should find
  • 00:59:51
    cases when fail is not 100% guaranteed
  • 00:59:55
    and but potential outcome is big and it
  • 00:59:58
    means that for you the most significant
  • 01:00:00
    is to understand that the team is uh not
  • 01:00:04
    uh stupid they know what they do and by
  • 01:00:08
    that you would reduce your chances of
  • 01:00:10
    fail from 99% to 95% but then Market
  • 01:00:15
    should be big because it's impossible to
  • 01:00:17
    get the disproportional outcome from
  • 01:00:19
    small Market Big Market you have a huge
  • 01:00:21
    Market I spoke to Jesse at at G before
  • 01:00:24
    this she said ask how does flow go from
  • 01:00:27
    a$1 billion company to a 10 billion
  • 01:00:30
    company we may I may answer this
  • 01:00:33
    question just uh using like benchmarks
  • 01:00:36
    for example what's the difference
  • 01:00:38
    between Flo and
  • 01:00:40
    doing partially it's
  • 01:00:43
    a scale of Revenue we have 200 million
  • 01:00:46
    they have 600 million and it's
  • 01:00:47
    achievable in several years for us to be
  • 01:00:50
    in the range of 600 million we have
  • 01:00:53
    approximately the same why is there
  • 01:00:54
    multile so much better than you
  • 01:00:56
    because it's a public company which
  • 01:00:58
    simultaneously is growing very fast Top
  • 01:01:01
    Line and bottom line they have
  • 01:01:03
    simultaneously 40 50% of Topline growth
  • 01:01:06
    and they have very nice uh profitability
  • 01:01:08
    growth and it's extremely rare to see
  • 01:01:11
    such companies as a public companies
  • 01:01:13
    it's like just old rule of 40 and you
  • 01:01:17
    rarely see like rule of 40 like 50 60 at
  • 01:01:21
    the public markets and all the like you
  • 01:01:24
    like people believe that they still have
  • 01:01:25
    good potential for expansion because
  • 01:01:27
    there are so many Learners of foreign
  • 01:01:31
    languages in the world I think
  • 01:01:33
    combination of this two factors but I
  • 01:01:35
    think mostly is just because combination
  • 01:01:37
    of 40% Top Line growth and the 20 and
  • 01:01:40
    the growth of the proportional growth of
  • 01:01:42
    profitability is so rare and it means
  • 01:01:45
    that if you want to cost 10 billion we
  • 01:01:47
    probably should achieve 600 million in
  • 01:01:50
    revenue and then show profitability and
  • 01:01:52
    continue growing with the same Pace can
  • 01:01:54
    I invest now I know it's
  • 01:01:59
    difficult listen my job is to be a VC
  • 01:02:02
    Demetri it's going to be worth a try
  • 01:02:03
    right um can I ask you a bit of a weird
  • 01:02:05
    one on your leadership do you think
  • 01:02:07
    you're a good CEO and how have you
  • 01:02:09
    changed as a leader over time um I have
  • 01:02:12
    nice story for
  • 01:02:14
    you when I was in Stanford Business
  • 01:02:16
    School we had one lesson with famous
  • 01:02:19
    Professor of
  • 01:02:21
    management and uh he did like the next
  • 01:02:25
    exercise he started to ask people in the
  • 01:02:28
    room what is the more what is the
  • 01:02:30
    necessary trait of good C and people
  • 01:02:34
    started to say like oh
  • 01:02:37
    this good co should Co should be
  • 01:02:40
    knowledgeable good co should have
  • 01:02:42
    integrity good should provide
  • 01:02:45
    inspiration and maybe in 20 minutes like
  • 01:02:47
    whiteboard was was covered by different
  • 01:02:50
    traits of good and then this professor
  • 01:02:52
    looked on this uh whiteboard and said
  • 01:02:55
    probably even Jus Christ was worse it
  • 01:02:58
    means that this lesson that people they
  • 01:03:02
    making kind of glorification of C that
  • 01:03:05
    seos should be perfect they should be
  • 01:03:07
    almost kind of gods but seos is just
  • 01:03:09
    like the same people and they can't be
  • 01:03:12
    so perfect of people think they should
  • 01:03:15
    be you should just understand your
  • 01:03:19
    weaknesses your strengths you should
  • 01:03:21
    understand why you're useful and you
  • 01:03:23
    should uh just uh make your proper work
  • 01:03:26
    as good as you can what is your biggest
  • 01:03:28
    strength what is your biggest weakness
  • 01:03:31
    my biggest strength that uh I may
  • 01:03:36
    analyze I may make like a rather good
  • 01:03:39
    conclusions uh in very simple manner it
  • 01:03:43
    means that uh people they need Clarity
  • 01:03:46
    and simplicity and I think I may provide
  • 01:03:49
    Clarity and simplicity I'm not
  • 01:03:50
    overwheling them by information I may
  • 01:03:52
    take much of information on myself but
  • 01:03:55
    then I provide to them like a solution
  • 01:03:57
    decision description in very simple form
  • 01:04:00
    and they understand and believe and
  • 01:04:02
    follow and uh my my main
  • 01:04:06
    weakness sometimes I may be too slow for
  • 01:04:10
    Change and uh uh the biggest uh events
  • 01:04:15
    in my life happened when the life burned
  • 01:04:19
    my bridges but now I understand that I
  • 01:04:22
    should have burned my bridges by myself
  • 01:04:24
    for example I started to make apps very
  • 01:04:27
    significant reason was that because it
  • 01:04:29
    was crisis of 2008 and like book
  • 01:04:34
    publishing was in terrible
  • 01:04:36
    situation I started to focus just on Flo
  • 01:04:39
    because um my old portfolio like
  • 01:04:41
    declined because of political situation
  • 01:04:44
    in region and when everything was good I
  • 01:04:47
    was just delaying necessary change and I
  • 01:04:50
    was just white in this crisis like for
  • 01:04:52
    life to burn my bridges and then like uh
  • 01:04:55
    Nic change happened then
  • 01:04:58
    like I started to move I'm fascinated on
  • 01:05:02
    this one you know you you've been very
  • 01:05:04
    successful over the last 10 years um
  • 01:05:06
    what does money mean to you Demetri
  • 01:05:08
    you're such an analytical honestly not
  • 01:05:10
    so much because uh I have a rather
  • 01:05:14
    humble lifestyle I don't honestly I
  • 01:05:17
    despise luxurious Brands I despise
  • 01:05:20
    luxury I even don't have car and I don't
  • 01:05:23
    have any expensive uh item I don't have
  • 01:05:27
    anything would be like kind of branded
  • 01:05:30
    or
  • 01:05:31
    luxurious I I don't need uh like
  • 01:05:35
    business classes or private
  • 01:05:37
    jets I would want to have a interesting
  • 01:05:40
    and meaningful life and feel that I'm
  • 01:05:42
    useful and uh and honestly I never think
  • 01:05:45
    about my personal money is I'm
  • 01:05:47
    absolutely honest here like never never
  • 01:05:50
    because I have so
  • 01:05:53
    little uh need for myself that it's not
  • 01:05:56
    even a kind of motivation for me uh I'm
  • 01:05:59
    very motivated by the story of uh J
  • 01:06:02
    founder of J Atlantic Chu F do you know
  • 01:06:04
    this story no please tell me uh J
  • 01:06:08
    Atlantic was started by a man who like a
  • 01:06:11
    huge forun by duty free shops by
  • 01:06:14
    starting duty free shops because of this
  • 01:06:17
    uh Venture and because of J Atlantic he
  • 01:06:19
    billions 9 billion or something like
  • 01:06:21
    that and then secretly he distributed
  • 01:06:24
    all his money for charity absolutely
  • 01:06:26
    secretly nobody know and he died like
  • 01:06:30
    two years ago and then the story became
  • 01:06:33
    public that he just uh gifted away in
  • 01:06:36
    his lifetime all his money and without
  • 01:06:39
    any proud without sharing to anybody
  • 01:06:40
    absolutely secretly and uh it's a the
  • 01:06:44
    best example for me how you should live
  • 01:06:47
    your life you should create something
  • 01:06:49
    available commercially but then it's
  • 01:06:51
    your duty to return this money for
  • 01:06:54
    society and to do that very efficiently
  • 01:06:58
    and I believe that uh if you're really
  • 01:07:00
    successful second part of your life
  • 01:07:02
    should be not to ear money but to spend
  • 01:07:04
    your money for the sake of society and I
  • 01:07:07
    believe that it's a huge sin to pass
  • 01:07:10
    billions to your children have you
  • 01:07:12
    always been this good like you are
  • 01:07:14
    objectively one of like the the kindest
  • 01:07:17
    humans I've had on the show really this
  • 01:07:19
    is like shows like this is why I love
  • 01:07:20
    doing what I do I didn't expect this
  • 01:07:22
    type of show have you always been like
  • 01:07:24
    this or has it come over time I just uh
  • 01:07:28
    got better because of
  • 01:07:31
    uh many many many problems and pains I
  • 01:07:35
    had uh in my life and I have like a
  • 01:07:40
    little regrets about my professional
  • 01:07:43
    life and my biggest regret that when I
  • 01:07:47
    was young and uh when I was less
  • 01:07:50
    sensitive I fart several people without
  • 01:07:55
    decency it means in in root form and it
  • 01:07:58
    was maybe 10 15 years ago and I still
  • 01:08:01
    feel guilty because of that 10 years
  • 01:08:04
    after just because to feel empathy you
  • 01:08:08
    should uh get pain by yourself and then
  • 01:08:11
    you would start to feel pain of other
  • 01:08:15
    people and it's just like a trait of age
  • 01:08:17
    and trait of a difficult journey I was
  • 01:08:20
    not like that when I was young you also
  • 01:08:23
    work with your brother Yuri
  • 01:08:26
    I not many people know this but I work
  • 01:08:28
    with my brother he sitting upstairs now
  • 01:08:31
    um I love it but everyone says don't
  • 01:08:35
    work with
  • 01:08:36
    family what's your biggest advice to me
  • 01:08:40
    on how to make it work so successfully
  • 01:08:42
    with your brother again I repeat my
  • 01:08:44
    advice never take general advice general
  • 01:08:47
    advice is always and uh
  • 01:08:50
    everything is nuanced and uh I worked
  • 01:08:53
    with my brother
  • 01:08:56
    for 30 years or so if we start
  • 01:08:59
    considering like our work from mushroom
  • 01:09:01
    Gathering or potato field work and we
  • 01:09:05
    always work together in uh book
  • 01:09:08
    publishing in all our Ventures and I
  • 01:09:11
    remember that uh our first boss in
  • 01:09:15
    publishing house and it was 2005 or so
  • 01:09:18
    we worked together in publishing house
  • 01:09:20
    we were responsible for computer
  • 01:09:21
    literature he said that you should
  • 01:09:23
    always work together because because you
  • 01:09:26
    so different and when you combine like
  • 01:09:29
    your personalities it's almost perfect
  • 01:09:31
    because Yuri is good to make a pass and
  • 01:09:33
    you're good to make Road and you
  • 01:09:36
    understand that and that I'm maybe too
  • 01:09:38
    slow in deciding something maybe
  • 01:09:41
    incisive but then when I start doing
  • 01:09:43
    something I'm doing that perfectly and
  • 01:09:45
    you like he is the opposite he's kind of
  • 01:09:48
    idea generator he's Venture uh driver
  • 01:09:51
    but he's not operational person alog
  • 01:09:54
    together but when we have uh this
  • 01:09:56
    combination is almost perfect and it
  • 01:09:58
    works really well but also I have worked
  • 01:10:00
    all my life with my wife I married very
  • 01:10:03
    early like uh how old were you when you
  • 01:10:06
    got married 21 wow 20 years ago and uh
  • 01:10:10
    she was uh student in the same group in
  • 01:10:13
    University and Sheed my trust because I
  • 01:10:17
    was very bad student because I was
  • 01:10:18
    working and she was helping me with like
  • 01:10:21
    advice when to visit University and with
  • 01:10:24
    different home task asks and she was my
  • 01:10:27
    friend at that moment and we started to
  • 01:10:30
    work together and again we have been
  • 01:10:33
    working together for 20 years she was
  • 01:10:36
    responsible for content in FLW at the
  • 01:10:39
    beginning of FLW and she's now my
  • 01:10:41
    executive assistant and we spent
  • 01:10:44
    together like working together 20 years
  • 01:10:46
    and very successfully your wife is your
  • 01:10:48
    EA yeah how how is that that must be
  • 01:10:52
    hard no it's very effective because uh
  • 01:10:55
    we may decide like uh what to do or what
  • 01:10:58
    not to do at the
  • 01:11:01
    breakfast that is amazing I I absolutely
  • 01:11:04
    love that um y there's no way that that
  • 01:11:06
    would work for
  • 01:11:08
    me um are you a wartime leader or a p
  • 01:11:11
    time needed do you think I was pretty
  • 01:11:13
    effective in both modes because uh I
  • 01:11:16
    have one tra like you know there are
  • 01:11:20
    four types of people based on level of
  • 01:11:23
    negative and positive emotion like
  • 01:11:25
    people who have low emotions in case of
  • 01:11:30
    bad situation and uh like like slow low
  • 01:11:34
    high high low high high low like like
  • 01:11:36
    it's depends on how are your emotions
  • 01:11:38
    high or low in in case of problems and
  • 01:11:41
    in case of excitement for example if you
  • 01:11:44
    have a huge
  • 01:11:46
    excitement but also like a
  • 01:11:49
    huge stress in case of problems like
  • 01:11:54
    probably you is difficult to be a CO and
  • 01:11:57
    my advantage that I'm kind of low low
  • 01:12:00
    personality it means that I never feel
  • 01:12:02
    too much excitement but also I never
  • 01:12:05
    feel too much stress and because of that
  • 01:12:08
    I'm just uh in case of all our
  • 01:12:11
    calamities I was very very calm and I
  • 01:12:15
    didn't have much stress I just played my
  • 01:12:17
    duty what was the biggest Calamity do
  • 01:12:20
    you think when you look back now what
  • 01:12:21
    was the oh that was hard emotionally for
  • 01:12:25
    our organization was hard uh this moment
  • 01:12:29
    when uh we got political instability in
  • 01:12:32
    belus and then war in Ukraine and we had
  • 01:12:36
    to relocate urgently the all company and
  • 01:12:40
    Al the I had to relocate myself in two
  • 01:12:44
    days I spent 38 uh years in belus and I
  • 01:12:49
    built my life I had like my house my
  • 01:12:53
    Gardens and I spent many years to my
  • 01:12:55
    Gardens and then I had to make decision
  • 01:12:57
    to move out of belus in two days and I
  • 01:13:01
    have never come back and then the same
  • 01:13:04
    decision most of our people had to make
  • 01:13:08
    and uh it was really difficult could you
  • 01:13:10
    imagine that you have built all your
  • 01:13:12
    life uh in country then in two days you
  • 01:13:15
    must uh move to another country with
  • 01:13:17
    your family and this was really
  • 01:13:20
    difficult and it traumatized uh uh me
  • 01:13:23
    and our people a lot I can't imagine
  • 01:13:26
    that one um I also can't imagine having
  • 01:13:28
    to move 100 plus people which you had to
  • 01:13:31
    do I believe it one more I believe that
  • 01:13:34
    uh when War started in 20 22 we had 70%
  • 01:13:39
    of our employees in buus it was more
  • 01:13:41
    than 200 and 90% of them were relocated
  • 01:13:45
    with families in several days how was
  • 01:13:47
    that process really difficult because uh
  • 01:13:50
    borders were closed it was impossible to
  • 01:13:52
    get papers and we had to organize no
  • 01:13:55
    flights and we had to organize Charters
  • 01:13:58
    to Armenia and turkey and then organize
  • 01:14:01
    you order Charters yeah yeah because we
  • 01:14:03
    didn't have flights and it was
  • 01:14:05
    impossible to make flights to Europe
  • 01:14:07
    because all flights were prohibited from
  • 01:14:09
    from the region did the company suffer
  • 01:14:12
    in any way I mean of course for half an
  • 01:14:15
    year we almost didn't have any progress
  • 01:14:18
    with our product because all people were
  • 01:14:20
    so stressed and defocused by moving
  • 01:14:24
    families and it was a huge huge
  • 01:14:26
    destruction and it was very expensive as
  • 01:14:28
    well how much did it cost many millions
  • 01:14:32
    uh it was very expensive but uh uh it
  • 01:14:35
    was significant to do because company
  • 01:14:38
    it's a te company and it's about people
  • 01:14:41
    and uh like this company would not exist
  • 01:14:44
    without people uh and also it was our
  • 01:14:48
    responsibility to provide this
  • 01:14:49
    opportunity to our people because it was
  • 01:14:51
    quite big chance that uh belus would
  • 01:14:54
    engage to the war and uh it would mean
  • 01:14:57
    that uh men would be drafted and borders
  • 01:15:00
    would be closed and it was real risk for
  • 01:15:03
    life for for men and we had to organize
  • 01:15:06
    this uh process what did you learn about
  • 01:15:08
    managing teams and people through this
  • 01:15:10
    process trust is the most significant
  • 01:15:12
    they should trust you like you should be
  • 01:15:15
    a really trustful person or a company to
  • 01:15:18
    convince 90% of your employees to take
  • 01:15:22
    family and belongings in today and to
  • 01:15:24
    move to another country you should be
  • 01:15:27
    really trustful for that my question to
  • 01:15:29
    you is when your mother looks at you and
  • 01:15:31
    your brother you guys have achieved such
  • 01:15:33
    success and when you look back to the
  • 01:15:35
    potato farms and the mushroom picking
  • 01:15:38
    what did she say she's not especially
  • 01:15:45
    emotional but she must be proud she has
  • 01:15:48
    never said
  • 01:15:51
    that would you like her too I don't
  • 01:15:54
    think that it would be natural for
  • 01:15:56
    [Laughter]
  • 01:15:59
    you I thank you so much this has been so
  • 01:16:02
    much fun so I'm going to do a quick fire
  • 01:16:04
    round so I say a short statement and you
  • 01:16:06
    give me your immediate thoughts does
  • 01:16:07
    that sound okay okay so what do you
  • 01:16:10
    believe that most around you disbelieve
  • 01:16:13
    I don't believe in talent I believe that
  • 01:16:16
    uh all people are approximately the same
  • 01:16:19
    we have the same processor and what
  • 01:16:22
    makes people different is just a hours
  • 01:16:25
    of hard work hard focused work and when
  • 01:16:29
    people say to me that I can't accomplish
  • 01:16:31
    something asking very simple question
  • 01:16:34
    how many hours of hard work have you
  • 01:16:37
    spent for that and if it's not about
  • 01:16:40
    thousand but why you think that you
  • 01:16:43
    should achieve something without
  • 01:16:45
    thousand of hours of hard work you don't
  • 01:16:48
    think smarts has got anything to do with
  • 01:16:50
    it like brains there are always extremes
  • 01:16:52
    but most of people they have plus minus
  • 01:16:55
    the same brain and believe me I know
  • 01:16:57
    many billionaires I uh I met many many
  • 01:17:02
    many successful entrepreneurs and not
  • 01:17:04
    just entrepreneurs and I have never seen
  • 01:17:07
    genuses but uh I believe that uh what
  • 01:17:11
    really distinguish successful people and
  • 01:17:14
    people who are not successful Beyond
  • 01:17:15
    just luck luck is really significant is
  • 01:17:18
    the ability to take risk and then work
  • 01:17:22
    really really hard and persistent for a
  • 01:17:24
    long time most of people they just can't
  • 01:17:27
    work really hard for very long time and
  • 01:17:29
    it's what distinguish successful people
  • 01:17:32
    and less successful people most people
  • 01:17:34
    don't have discipline which is you need
  • 01:17:36
    to not go out and drink with your
  • 01:17:38
    friends at the end of the day and go
  • 01:17:39
    back and work you need to come back
  • 01:17:41
    after the 90th no and pitch for the 91st
  • 01:17:44
    time hardest time in my life was when I
  • 01:17:47
    was in university but also I was writing
  • 01:17:50
    my books at nights and uh I usually was
  • 01:17:54
    uh
  • 01:17:55
    like working for 18 hours per day for
  • 01:17:59
    years and was sleeping just 6 hours or
  • 01:18:02
    so and four years but then like I
  • 01:18:06
    achieved a lot because of that and uh I
  • 01:18:10
    have very interesting story about uh my
  • 01:18:14
    my books like that sometimes you need to
  • 01:18:18
    see many things in prospects and uh you
  • 01:18:22
    need to put many dots on the map of uh
  • 01:18:26
    your life I was uh in 2004 I wrote like
  • 01:18:31
    a big book about action script it's a
  • 01:18:34
    program language of Mer media flesh and
  • 01:18:38
    that time I didn't ear much from that
  • 01:18:41
    but uh approximately next year in 2005
  • 01:18:44
    this book was gifted to one young boy he
  • 01:18:47
    was maybe 12 years old by his brother
  • 01:18:50
    and he said if you learn programming
  • 01:18:52
    from this book you would become a big
  • 01:18:54
    person and he learned programming from
  • 01:18:57
    this book he started to practice flash
  • 01:19:00
    programming and then 10 years after 15
  • 01:19:03
    years after he became co-founder of msqd
  • 01:19:08
    we sold
  • 01:19:09
    to uh uh we to U Facebook and then we
  • 01:19:14
    used part of this money to finance flow
  • 01:19:17
    it means that if I didn't wrow this book
  • 01:19:20
    in 2004 then probably he would not learn
  • 01:19:25
    program programming and MSD would not
  • 01:19:28
    happen and then FL would not have money
  • 01:19:30
    to be financed but distance between
  • 01:19:33
    these two events was more than 10
  • 01:19:36
    years and in your life you very often
  • 01:19:39
    you just need much time to see how all
  • 01:19:42
    lines will be connected but you have uh
  • 01:19:45
    dots to be connected you need to have
  • 01:19:47
    dots you need to do something you need
  • 01:19:49
    to move forward what CEO do you most
  • 01:19:52
    admire and why them I would say that uh
  • 01:19:55
    I'm against uh uh glamorization and of
  • 01:20:00
    cosos and making them Heroes and I even
  • 01:20:03
    don't like glass door when glass door
  • 01:20:06
    put like a rating of C because uh I
  • 01:20:09
    believe that when compan is big is or
  • 01:20:12
    not even big it's much more teamwork and
  • 01:20:16
    so is just a role and the people are
  • 01:20:19
    just people I always I always recommend
  • 01:20:22
    not to like a book like how to be a
  • 01:20:25
    great s like you have in your like book
  • 01:20:29
    library but she read biographies about
  • 01:20:32
    cosos about business and you would see
  • 01:20:34
    that even Steve Jobs he made probably
  • 01:20:37
    90% of mistakes in all his decisions and
  • 01:20:40
    many many stupid mistakes and uh he was
  • 01:20:43
    not good Al to alt together it's a it's
  • 01:20:48
    just kind of maybe the single common
  • 01:20:50
    trade between successful and uh between
  • 01:20:53
    all successful I may found is
  • 01:20:56
    decisiveness you should make decisions
  • 01:20:59
    and because when you make decisions you
  • 01:21:00
    move forward even if decisions when
  • 01:21:02
    decisions are stupid you're moving
  • 01:21:04
    forward and you're getting new
  • 01:21:06
    information and the next decision will
  • 01:21:08
    be better the worst is just this
  • 01:21:11
    analysis par paralysis not making any
  • 01:21:14
    decisions one of my closest mentors said
  • 01:21:17
    to me the other day the heaviest things
  • 01:21:18
    in life are not iron or gold but unmade
  • 01:21:22
    decisions yeah yeah and sometimes people
  • 01:21:24
    kind of they're trying to find like a
  • 01:21:27
    perfect solution but the truth of life
  • 01:21:30
    that nobody knows future and nobody may
  • 01:21:34
    make like a perfect decisions just based
  • 01:21:36
    on information or analysis because if it
  • 01:21:40
    were the case then minin or Banks would
  • 01:21:43
    be perfect business creators but uh like
  • 01:21:46
    you can't see unicorns which were
  • 01:21:47
    created by minin or Banks why because of
  • 01:21:50
    unpredictability of the future and if
  • 01:21:53
    future is unpredictable
  • 01:21:55
    then what's the best just make any
  • 01:21:58
    decision and move forward just not stay
  • 01:21:59
    as the place decide something and move
  • 01:22:02
    forward what have you changed your mind
  • 01:22:04
    on over the last 12 months I was much
  • 01:22:07
    more optimistic about uh time which
  • 01:22:11
    would be necessary for generative AI to
  • 01:22:14
    make impact on businesses and uh because
  • 01:22:17
    maybe two maybe in two years like two or
  • 01:22:20
    three years after the beginning of this
  • 01:22:24
    hype I still don't see many examples of
  • 01:22:29
    real business success based on Genera Pi
  • 01:22:32
    it means that maybe something in
  • 01:22:34
    programming maybe something in support
  • 01:22:36
    but it's like rather tiny like we can't
  • 01:22:39
    say that there is like any big case any
  • 01:22:42
    big business which changed business
  • 01:22:45
    model or got profitability or growth
  • 01:22:47
    because of generative pi and I had the
  • 01:22:50
    hope that the change would happen much
  • 01:22:53
    faster who do not have on the board who
  • 01:22:56
    you would most like to have on your
  • 01:22:57
    board let's say Melinda Gates because
  • 01:23:00
    probably Melinda Gates is a person who
  • 01:23:02
    is doing nowadays the most for female
  • 01:23:04
    health does it hurt you but it it's okay
  • 01:23:07
    for me to ask does it hurt you when
  • 01:23:10
    people criticize a male CEO of flow I
  • 01:23:14
    understand uh uh like why is they
  • 01:23:17
    criticizing uh but uh also I feel that
  • 01:23:21
    uh our success was so beneficial for the
  • 01:23:25
    industry because you VC and you know
  • 01:23:27
    that VC are making decisions based on
  • 01:23:29
    benchmarks and now like all VC VC will
  • 01:23:32
    start believing that it's possible to
  • 01:23:35
    have a great success in this industry
  • 01:23:37
    and all founders will have much easier
  • 01:23:40
    Journey than I had I'm trying to do the
  • 01:23:44
    best like for this company and I think I
  • 01:23:48
    was rather good in that but also I would
  • 01:23:51
    want of course to see that more women
  • 01:23:55
    are becoming very successful in this
  • 01:23:57
    journey what skill would you most like
  • 01:23:59
    to improve of yours in leadership this
  • 01:24:02
    tricky
  • 01:24:04
    one why It's Tricky one because I as I
  • 01:24:07
    said I don't believe in perfect
  • 01:24:09
    seos uh uh I believe that you should
  • 01:24:12
    understand your strengths and weaknesses
  • 01:24:15
    and then argument Yourself by people
  • 01:24:18
    with different strengths and then you
  • 01:24:21
    would have like a pretty solid team
  • 01:24:27
    without def defects and uh uh I don't
  • 01:24:30
    think that uh even this mentality that
  • 01:24:33
    you should be perfect is uh is right I
  • 01:24:36
    think it's significant to understand
  • 01:24:38
    your weaknesses and your strengths but
  • 01:24:41
    uh like for example nowadays like I
  • 01:24:43
    recently hired communication coach
  • 01:24:45
    because I think I'm rather bad in
  • 01:24:49
    communication I mean that's funny I
  • 01:24:52
    think you are probably one of the best
  • 01:24:55
    interviews I've ever done so I would
  • 01:24:57
    disagree with you having done 10,000
  • 01:25:00
    hours of these but sure final one are
  • 01:25:03
    you saying that to all your everyone
  • 01:25:06
    everyone of them yeah yeah yeah everyone
  • 01:25:08
    of you is thinking wow Harry's such a
  • 01:25:09
    nice guy final one Dimitri what question
  • 01:25:13
    are you not often asked that you should
  • 01:25:15
    be asked more Dimitri would you want to
  • 01:25:20
    eat something tasty
  • 01:25:24
    you know what I'll roll with it Demetri
  • 01:25:28
    I was really looking forward to this one
  • 01:25:29
    CU i l the business I didn't know how
  • 01:25:32
    you were going to be respectfully you've
  • 01:25:34
    been fantastic like you are funny you
  • 01:25:37
    are direct thank you for being so
  • 01:25:39
    brilliant and I I really have loved this
  • 01:25:42
    thank you much
Etiquetas
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