The FBI Secretly Ran a Massive Money Laundering Ring

00:56:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUAuEtirP8E

Resumo

TLDRIn this episode of the 404 Media podcast, the hosts discuss the ongoing issue of data breaches and the role of Delete Me, a service that helps protect personal information by removing it from data broker websites. They delve into a story about an individual using the username "Elon Musk" who was involved in money laundering for hackers and drug traffickers, detailing the FBI's investigation and eventual takeover of his operations. The conversation also covers the impact of tariffs on technology companies, particularly regarding the manufacturing of products like the Nintendo Switch and iPhones, and the challenges of reshoring manufacturing to the U.S. The hosts explore the accelerationist perspective on technology and regulation, emphasizing the need for rapid innovation in a globalized economy.

Conclusões

  • 🔒 Data breaches are common, affecting even secure companies.
  • 🧹 Delete Me helps protect personal information from data brokers.
  • 💰 The "Elon Musk" case highlights the complexities of cybercrime.
  • 📈 Tariffs can lead to increased costs for technology products.
  • 📦 Nintendo Switch 2's release may be delayed due to tariffs.
  • 📱 Manufacturing iPhones in the U.S. is a complex challenge.
  • 🌍 Reshoring requires significant investment and time.
  • ⚖️ Accelerationists advocate for reduced regulation to foster innovation.
  • 🔍 The FBI's undercover operations reveal the intricacies of law enforcement.
  • 💡 Global competition is crucial for technological advancement.

Linha do tempo

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    In today's world, data breaches are common, and even secure companies struggle to protect employee information. Delete Me offers a solution by removing sensitive data from data broker websites, making it harder for attackers to target employees with phishing and scams. The service regularly scrubs employee details, ensuring ongoing protection against exposure.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    The 404 Media podcast introduces its hosts and discusses a story about a user named 'Elon Musk' who was involved in money laundering for hackers and drug traffickers. The discussion highlights the underground economy and the challenges criminals face in converting cryptocurrency to cash without revealing their identities.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    The investigation into 'Elon Musk' began with undercover buys by the FBI, leading to the discovery of cash hidden in children's books. The FBI's efforts to track down the money launderer involved physical surveillance and ultimately led to the arrest of a suspect who became a confidential informant for further investigations.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The FBI's investigation revealed a larger money laundering operation, with significant amounts of cash being moved. The informant helped the FBI monitor ongoing transactions, uncovering a network that facilitated the laundering of millions in cryptocurrency.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    The FBI eventually identified the real 'Elon Musk' and lured him to the U.S. under the pretense of a travel authorization. After his arrest, the FBI took over his money laundering operation, running it for nearly a year to gather intelligence on his customers and the broader criminal network.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    The FBI's operation raised ethical questions about facilitating criminal activity while attempting to investigate it. The discussion touches on the complexities of undercover operations and the balance between law enforcement and enabling crime.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The podcast discusses the implications of the FBI's actions, comparing them to previous operations where the agency infiltrated criminal organizations. The conversation highlights the ongoing investigations and the potential for more revelations in the future.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The hosts reflect on the challenges of regulating technology and the impact of tariffs on innovation. They discuss how tariffs can hinder technological progress and the broader implications for the economy and global competition.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    The conversation shifts to the impact of tariffs on consumer electronics, specifically the Nintendo Switch 2. The uncertainty surrounding tariffs has led to delays in pre-orders and potential price increases for consumers.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Framework, a laptop manufacturer, announces it will stop selling its entry-level laptop in the U.S. due to tariff concerns, highlighting the broader impact of tariffs on tech companies and consumer choices.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:56:27

    The podcast concludes with a discussion on the feasibility of manufacturing iPhones in the U.S. The hosts emphasize the complexity of the iPhone's supply chain and the challenges of reshoring manufacturing, suggesting that tariffs will create more obstacles for companies like Apple.

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Vídeo de perguntas e respostas

  • What is Delete Me?

    Delete Me is a service that removes sensitive employee information from data broker websites to protect against data breaches.

  • How does Delete Me help businesses?

    It scrubs employees' personal details regularly, making it harder for attackers to find contact information.

  • Who was the individual using the username "Elon Musk"?

    He was a money launderer for hackers and drug traffickers, operating on dark web marketplaces.

  • What did the FBI do regarding the "Elon Musk" case?

    The FBI conducted undercover operations, identified the individual, and eventually took over his money laundering business.

  • What impact do tariffs have on technology companies?

    Tariffs can increase production costs, lead to price hikes for consumers, and complicate supply chains.

  • Why is it difficult to manufacture iPhones in the U.S.?

    The iPhone's components are sourced globally, and the U.S. lacks the necessary manufacturing infrastructure and expertise.

  • What are the implications of the tariffs on the Nintendo Switch 2?

    The tariffs may lead to increased prices or delays in the release of the Switch 2 in the U.S.

  • What is the accelerationist view on technology and regulation?

    Accelerationists advocate for rapid technological progress and reduced government regulation to foster innovation.

  • What challenges do companies face when trying to reshore manufacturing?

    Reshoring requires significant time and investment in training and infrastructure, which the U.S. currently lacks.

  • What is the significance of the FBI's undercover operations?

    They highlight the complexities of law enforcement's approach to tackling cybercrime and money laundering.

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Rolagem automática:
  • 00:00:00
    in today's world data breaches happen
  • 00:00:02
    all the time and even the most secure
  • 00:00:04
    companies can't always protect their
  • 00:00:06
    employees personal information from
  • 00:00:08
    ending up in the wrong hands That's
  • 00:00:11
    where Delete Me comes in Delete Me is a
  • 00:00:13
    service that removes your employees
  • 00:00:15
    sensitive information from hundreds of
  • 00:00:17
    data broker websites sites where hackers
  • 00:00:20
    can find phone numbers and emails within
  • 00:00:22
    seconds Rachel Tobach CEO of Social
  • 00:00:25
    Proof Security says attackers use this
  • 00:00:28
    data to target employees with fishing
  • 00:00:30
    messages and AI powered phone scams But
  • 00:00:33
    delete me makes it harder for these bad
  • 00:00:35
    actors by scrubbing your employees
  • 00:00:37
    details regularly It's simple Attackers
  • 00:00:40
    are lazy If it's too hard to find
  • 00:00:42
    contact info they'll move on to easier
  • 00:00:45
    targets Delete Me takes care of this for
  • 00:00:47
    you doing the heavy lifting so you don't
  • 00:00:50
    have to And over time they keep removing
  • 00:00:53
    the information so it stays down
  • 00:00:55
    protecting your team from constant
  • 00:00:57
    exposure If your business has a social
  • 00:01:00
    presence or deals with clients you need
  • 00:01:02
    Delete Me Visit
  • 00:01:05
    deleteme.com/404media and start
  • 00:01:07
    safeguarding your team's information
  • 00:01:09
    today That's
  • 00:01:12
    deleteme.com/44 media
  • 00:01:15
    [Music]
  • 00:01:18
    Hello and welcome to the 404 media
  • 00:01:20
    podcast where we bring you unparalleled
  • 00:01:23
    access in worlds both online and IRL 404
  • 00:01:26
    media is a journalist founded company
  • 00:01:28
    and needs your support To subscribe go
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    to
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    404media.co as well as bonus content
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    every single week Subscribers also get
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    access to additional episodes where we
  • 00:01:37
    respond to the best comments Gain access
  • 00:01:40
    to that content at 404media.co I'm your
  • 00:01:43
    host Joseph and with me are two of the
  • 00:01:45
    other 404 media co-founders The first
  • 00:01:48
    being Emanuel Mayberg Hello And Jason
  • 00:01:51
    Kebler Hey good to be here Yeah Good to
  • 00:01:55
    not be hosting Oh is that what you did
  • 00:01:57
    last time
  • 00:02:00
    no when when you're not here we just
  • 00:02:01
    don't do it at all So we have a robot
  • 00:02:04
    ask us questions I mean yeah I go on
  • 00:02:07
    holiday you outsource me to a robot That
  • 00:02:10
    sounds that sounds fine to me Uh I'm
  • 00:02:13
    back Jason what is this um first story
  • 00:02:17
    we're gonna talk about so this is your
  • 00:02:19
    story It's called Elon Musk And Elon
  • 00:02:22
    Musk is in quotes here because it's a
  • 00:02:23
    username which we'll get into Elon Musk
  • 00:02:26
    was a prolific moneyaunderer for hackers
  • 00:02:28
    and drug traffickers It was secretly the
  • 00:02:31
    FBI Uh Joseph this was a really great
  • 00:02:34
    story based on a lot of court documents
  • 00:02:37
    and just like sourcing and reporting
  • 00:02:38
    that you did over the course of a few
  • 00:02:40
    weeks Um so this person was named Elon
  • 00:02:45
    Musk
  • 00:02:46
    WHM So who was he and I guess what is uh
  • 00:02:51
    WHM yeah And look straight up I'm not
  • 00:02:54
    going to say Elon Musk WHM for the
  • 00:02:56
    entire podcast I'm just going to say
  • 00:02:58
    Elon Musk You all know we're not talking
  • 00:03:00
    about the actual Musk Uh it's a username
  • 00:03:04
    that this person um took But the WHM
  • 00:03:08
    refers to White House Market which is
  • 00:03:10
    one of these dark web marketplaces like
  • 00:03:14
    Silk Road like Alphab Bay And to be
  • 00:03:16
    honest I covered those places a lot back
  • 00:03:19
    in 2013 14 15 Um but they're still going
  • 00:03:24
    You know I just don't think people pay
  • 00:03:26
    that much attention to them anymore Um
  • 00:03:28
    I'm not sure about the size of these
  • 00:03:30
    ones but you know some of them got
  • 00:03:32
    pretty substantial after Silk Road and
  • 00:03:34
    actually a lot lot bigger But that was
  • 00:03:35
    just one of these marketplaces where
  • 00:03:37
    Elon Musk advertised his services And
  • 00:03:40
    what he offered was something which I
  • 00:03:43
    think is really overlooked um by a lot
  • 00:03:45
    of the technology press which is this
  • 00:03:47
    crucial cog in the underground economy
  • 00:03:51
    So let's say you're a drug trafficker or
  • 00:03:53
    a hacker and you have all of this
  • 00:03:55
    Bitcoin that you've got from selling
  • 00:03:57
    your drugs or hacking into companies
  • 00:03:59
    That's all well and good but you can't
  • 00:04:01
    really do anything with it you know you
  • 00:04:03
    can't go up to every Lamborghini
  • 00:04:06
    dealership or whatever and try to buy
  • 00:04:08
    with Bitcoin or Monero Uh they're
  • 00:04:10
    probably not they're not going to accept
  • 00:04:11
    it and that looks pretty weird anyway
  • 00:04:13
    right so you need to convert that crypto
  • 00:04:16
    into cash That presents a real problem
  • 00:04:19
    for criminals because if they just go do
  • 00:04:22
    it at Coinbase or something they're
  • 00:04:25
    going to ask for ID and then you know
  • 00:04:27
    maybe get a fake ID whatever But there's
  • 00:04:29
    a lot of friction there and Coinbase or
  • 00:04:32
    Binance are going to give information to
  • 00:04:33
    the authorities So what Elon Musk offers
  • 00:04:35
    is you send me your Bitcoin and I will
  • 00:04:39
    just send you cash physically in the
  • 00:04:41
    mail No know your customer KYC no ID and
  • 00:04:45
    you can anonymously cash out um your
  • 00:04:48
    crypto So one thing one detail in this
  • 00:04:51
    story that I thought was really good is
  • 00:04:52
    that a lot of the times the cash was
  • 00:04:55
    sent within the pages of children's
  • 00:04:57
    books Is that that's right yeah So what
  • 00:05:01
    happened at the start of the
  • 00:05:03
    investigation is the FBI start doing all
  • 00:05:06
    of these undercover buys because you
  • 00:05:08
    know Elon Musk is advertising this stuff
  • 00:05:10
    on the dark web but we have no idea
  • 00:05:11
    where he is So they do a bunch of buys
  • 00:05:14
    for $1,000 here $2,000 there It all goes
  • 00:05:17
    to this post box um somewhere in
  • 00:05:19
    Kentucky Um and they open it up and it
  • 00:05:23
    just looks like children's books or in
  • 00:05:25
    some cases the pages of children's books
  • 00:05:28
    sort of taped together Sort of you know
  • 00:05:30
    relatively innocuous looks somewhat
  • 00:05:33
    normal You then open those up and there
  • 00:05:35
    are envelopes inside two envelopes one
  • 00:05:37
    inside the other You get through those
  • 00:05:39
    and then that's where the cash is Now
  • 00:05:42
    obviously whoever's shipping this money
  • 00:05:44
    has done that to try to mask it so it
  • 00:05:47
    doesn't get caught in transit um that
  • 00:05:50
    sort of thing But it is pretty funny
  • 00:05:52
    that yeah they were shipped in
  • 00:05:53
    children's books and I really tried to
  • 00:05:54
    do that with this article because as you
  • 00:05:57
    say the vast majority is based on court
  • 00:06:00
    documents and it wasn't like I just went
  • 00:06:01
    to PAC the US court records uh website
  • 00:06:05
    and just downloaded a bunch of records
  • 00:06:06
    and wrote it This was spread across
  • 00:06:09
    dozens and dozens of dockets that
  • 00:06:11
    weren't immediately obviously connected
  • 00:06:13
    I had to figure out oh this case is
  • 00:06:16
    actually part of this case And there's
  • 00:06:17
    sort of a spiderweb of all of these
  • 00:06:19
    different dockets going on And you get
  • 00:06:21
    lots of details like that like the
  • 00:06:22
    children's books um some of the money
  • 00:06:24
    mules we'll talk about the guy buying
  • 00:06:27
    Mercedes all of that sort of thing right
  • 00:06:30
    so the FBI wasn't just investigating
  • 00:06:33
    Elon Musk WHM or I mean maybe that was
  • 00:06:35
    their ultimate target but they like they
  • 00:06:40
    in the start they identified a single
  • 00:06:43
    person How did they do that and then
  • 00:06:45
    what happened after they sort of
  • 00:06:47
    identified this one I guess you'd call
  • 00:06:49
    him a money launderer or an accused
  • 00:06:52
    money launderer but how uh how did they
  • 00:06:54
    identify him yeah So with all of these
  • 00:06:57
    undercover buys where all of this cash
  • 00:07:00
    is arriving at the post box they they
  • 00:07:02
    find that it keeps being shipped from
  • 00:07:04
    different places in New York like these
  • 00:07:08
    villages and towns sort of in upstate
  • 00:07:10
    New York Um and they kind of gloss over
  • 00:07:13
    this in the court record so I'm not 100%
  • 00:07:15
    sure but what seems to have happened is
  • 00:07:17
    that they zeroed in on that area because
  • 00:07:19
    all of these packages keep coming from
  • 00:07:21
    there and then eventually they managed
  • 00:07:22
    to perform physical surveillance on this
  • 00:07:25
    person who they believe is shipping the
  • 00:07:27
    packages Um this person uh they arrest
  • 00:07:31
    him a little while later They burst into
  • 00:07:33
    his apartment They shout his name He
  • 00:07:35
    then comes out from the bedroom he's
  • 00:07:37
    living with a parent or his parents it
  • 00:07:40
    seems Uh we don't actually name him in
  • 00:07:43
    the article because it turns out later
  • 00:07:45
    that he actually flips and becomes a
  • 00:07:47
    confidential human source for the FBI
  • 00:07:50
    and for the authorities Um and you know
  • 00:07:53
    it just didn't seem right naming that
  • 00:07:55
    person even though you can figure it out
  • 00:07:56
    if you piece all of the pull the
  • 00:07:58
    different documents together But what
  • 00:08:00
    they do there is almost like a very old
  • 00:08:03
    school investigation right you think
  • 00:08:05
    about the dark web and all this
  • 00:08:07
    technical stuff and actually there is a
  • 00:08:10
    real world component because there are
  • 00:08:12
    real people moving physical cash around
  • 00:08:14
    and they've identified someone shipping
  • 00:08:15
    this cash They then flip him and then
  • 00:08:18
    that's a way to investigate the rest of
  • 00:08:21
    the money laundering ring and this
  • 00:08:23
    person who we call Eric puts on a camera
  • 00:08:26
    I think a microphone as well and they go
  • 00:08:29
    and continue basically laundering money
  • 00:08:32
    while the FBI is monitoring them and
  • 00:08:35
    that would often involve going to a
  • 00:08:38
    grocery store car park or something like
  • 00:08:41
    that and picking up or moving $100,000
  • 00:08:44
    to
  • 00:08:44
    $300,000 at once So while the FBI was
  • 00:08:48
    buying a grand or two here or there it's
  • 00:08:51
    obvious that the money laundering ring
  • 00:08:54
    is actually much much bigger and and
  • 00:08:57
    moving much much more money And there's
  • 00:09:00
    that physical part and then also in
  • 00:09:01
    these conversations with Elon Musk
  • 00:09:03
    because of course with um the undercover
  • 00:09:05
    buys the FBI is posing as a drug
  • 00:09:07
    trafficker online They follow the
  • 00:09:09
    blockchain which shows all of the
  • 00:09:11
    Bitcoin transactions and they're able to
  • 00:09:14
    figure out or estimate I guess that
  • 00:09:17
    something like 90 million is moving
  • 00:09:19
    through this guy's cryptocurrency
  • 00:09:21
    accounts So it's a huge um
  • 00:09:24
    moneyaundering ring Um and well this was
  • 00:09:28
    actually a long time ago now I think in
  • 00:09:30
    2013 but longtime readers and listeners
  • 00:09:32
    may remember an article we wrote way
  • 00:09:35
    back then about a moneyaundering ring in
  • 00:09:38
    New York and oh that was really
  • 00:09:40
    interesting cuz they were exchanging
  • 00:09:42
    cryptocurrency for cash and all that
  • 00:09:43
    sort of thing It turns out it was this
  • 00:09:45
    one We didn't know that at the time but
  • 00:09:48
    now I've pieced together all of these
  • 00:09:50
    other court documents and it's oh this
  • 00:09:52
    is an even bigger case than that somehow
  • 00:09:55
    right and so they eventually
  • 00:09:58
    identify who they believe to be Elon
  • 00:10:02
    Musk and they essentially trick him into
  • 00:10:06
    flying to the United States Is that
  • 00:10:09
    right yeah Um and I was kind of blown
  • 00:10:11
    away by this but through the
  • 00:10:14
    confidential human source in the money
  • 00:10:17
    laundering organization they get a
  • 00:10:19
    WhatsApp number and they get they
  • 00:10:21
    actually get a lot of phone numbers and
  • 00:10:23
    all that sort of thing which is one of
  • 00:10:25
    the main numbers he communicates with
  • 00:10:27
    They then do all of these different
  • 00:10:29
    search warrants and court orders They do
  • 00:10:30
    one with Uber I think PayPal
  • 00:10:34
    um Binance for sure as well and they
  • 00:10:37
    eventually um identify this 30-year-old
  • 00:10:41
    or late 20s uh Indian national with the
  • 00:10:44
    surname Mora I hope I'm pronouncing that
  • 00:10:47
    correctly Apologies if I'm not But they
  • 00:10:49
    they figure out it's him and he's off in
  • 00:10:52
    India Um and they're figuring out well
  • 00:10:55
    how do we get him here and it turns out
  • 00:10:57
    he'd made a ton of applications to visit
  • 00:11:00
    the US um over the years And they always
  • 00:11:03
    denied We don't really know why they
  • 00:11:05
    were denied but they always were And now
  • 00:11:07
    this time when he makes another
  • 00:11:09
    application the FBI clearly communicates
  • 00:11:11
    with the State Department and says "Hey
  • 00:11:14
    approve it." And you go through the
  • 00:11:16
    court documents and it says the only
  • 00:11:18
    reason the State Department approved
  • 00:11:20
    this travel authorization was because
  • 00:11:23
    the agency knew that this person was
  • 00:11:24
    going to be arrested Now I'm sure that
  • 00:11:27
    happens you know I'm sure there are
  • 00:11:29
    cases if you just look around but that
  • 00:11:31
    was the first time I seen that in a
  • 00:11:33
    court record where it's like well we're
  • 00:11:34
    just going to approve him So he comes to
  • 00:11:36
    the country um and then we're going to
  • 00:11:39
    arrest him but they lure him over and of
  • 00:11:42
    course it's after they arrest him the
  • 00:11:44
    the story actually gets really really
  • 00:11:45
    interesting Yeah I mean that I know that
  • 00:11:48
    was a lot of leadup but basically they
  • 00:11:50
    they arrest this person who is
  • 00:11:52
    supposedly Elon Musk WHM and then
  • 00:11:57
    they basically take over his persona
  • 00:12:00
    and they they run his moneyaundering
  • 00:12:03
    business for a year Yeah So I guess I
  • 00:12:08
    guess to back up briefly I came across
  • 00:12:11
    this case because somebody sent me a
  • 00:12:13
    court record that we'll talk about in a
  • 00:12:14
    second And then I worked it backwards I
  • 00:12:16
    was trying to figure out huh who is this
  • 00:12:18
    money launderer that the FBI took over
  • 00:12:20
    and that led me to the Elon Musk case It
  • 00:12:23
    was announced in January but didn't
  • 00:12:25
    really get much coverage um at all Um so
  • 00:12:29
    I went back from that and then brought
  • 00:12:31
    all the court records together and
  • 00:12:33
    figured it out And what happened is that
  • 00:12:37
    the FBI takes it over and I managed to
  • 00:12:42
    actually have the prosecutor's office
  • 00:12:44
    confirmed to me that they ran it for 11
  • 00:12:46
    months nearly a year And honestly I was
  • 00:12:50
    pretty surprised by that Um from reading
  • 00:12:52
    the court records I was estimating with
  • 00:12:54
    the timeline I had in front of me well
  • 00:12:56
    it looks like they they ran it for at
  • 00:12:59
    least 3 four maybe 6 months something
  • 00:13:02
    like that But it really blew me away
  • 00:13:05
    that they said um that they ran it for
  • 00:13:08
    11 and during that time they
  • 00:13:11
    investigated Elon Musk's customers or I
  • 00:13:13
    guess the FBI's customers uh now and the
  • 00:13:17
    FBI didn't get back to me I did speak to
  • 00:13:19
    the prosecutor's office as I said and
  • 00:13:21
    they were quite hazy on the details but
  • 00:13:23
    they did say the investigation looked
  • 00:13:25
    into um drug traffickers in Miami a
  • 00:13:29
    robbery a knife point in San Francisco
  • 00:13:32
    and then lots of hacking investigations
  • 00:13:34
    as well The prosecutors wouldn't say
  • 00:13:37
    whether those are investigations were
  • 00:13:39
    specifically before they took over the
  • 00:13:41
    account or after they took over the
  • 00:13:43
    account They just said there were
  • 00:13:44
    investigations both before and after So
  • 00:13:47
    right I I mean there's shades here of
  • 00:13:50
    Darkwire the incredible true story of
  • 00:13:52
    the largest sting operation ever uh a
  • 00:13:55
    book by Joseph Cox where the FBI we've
  • 00:13:58
    talked about it a lot but the FBI took
  • 00:14:00
    over a an encrypted cell phone company
  • 00:14:03
    And this is just the latest of like the
  • 00:14:05
    FBI secretly running criminal
  • 00:14:07
    organizations for like sometimes months
  • 00:14:10
    or years at a time And in the in the
  • 00:14:12
    meantime it's like crimes are being
  • 00:14:14
    committed it sometimes takes them quite
  • 00:14:17
    a while to start arresting people Can
  • 00:14:19
    you talk about some of the the other
  • 00:14:21
    ones that you've covered yeah So yes
  • 00:14:24
    there is the Anom case
  • 00:14:26
    NOM where as you say they took over an
  • 00:14:29
    embryionic encrypted phone company put a
  • 00:14:31
    back door in and then used that to
  • 00:14:32
    wiretap the world That was thousands of
  • 00:14:35
    devices something like 9 to 12,000
  • 00:14:38
    depending at the point in time You have
  • 00:14:41
    that you have when the FBI launched its
  • 00:14:44
    own
  • 00:14:45
    cryptocurrency secretly You know they
  • 00:14:47
    didn't come out and say this is the FBI
  • 00:14:48
    coin It was uh it was a covert operation
  • 00:14:51
    to catch people doing pump and dump
  • 00:14:53
    schemes Um I didn't cover that at the
  • 00:14:56
    time but I definitely took notice when
  • 00:14:57
    it came out and there was a press
  • 00:14:58
    release about it And the other one is
  • 00:15:01
    one I got obsessed with years ago back
  • 00:15:03
    when we were at Motherboard uh writing
  • 00:15:06
    there when the FBI took over a child
  • 00:15:09
    abuse website on the dark web and they
  • 00:15:11
    ran it for 2 weeks in order to deliver
  • 00:15:15
    malware to visitors of that website All
  • 00:15:19
    of these cases are shades of gray You
  • 00:15:22
    know it's not black and white You can on
  • 00:15:23
    one side see oh well the f you would see
  • 00:15:26
    why the FBI would do that They want to
  • 00:15:28
    flip criminal infrastructure against
  • 00:15:30
    criminals and then use that as an avenue
  • 00:15:31
    to target them On the other side they
  • 00:15:33
    are arguably facilitating criminal
  • 00:15:36
    activity at least for a period of time
  • 00:15:38
    So with the dark web child abuse site
  • 00:15:41
    they were serving child abuse material
  • 00:15:43
    to um child abusers and allowing them to
  • 00:15:46
    access that With a nom they were
  • 00:15:48
    facilitating drug trafficking and
  • 00:15:51
    assassinations And in my book that you
  • 00:15:53
    mentioned you know at least one person
  • 00:15:55
    was killed through an assassination
  • 00:15:56
    planned on that app Um I guess the pump
  • 00:15:59
    and dump one is a little bit uh sort of
  • 00:16:02
    not as extreme as those although I need
  • 00:16:04
    to look into it But here if all of the
  • 00:16:08
    cases we've connected are accurate I
  • 00:16:11
    mean the FBI is running the
  • 00:16:13
    moneyaundering operation and in order to
  • 00:16:15
    do that you have to send criminals money
  • 00:16:17
    So you obviously so they don't suspect
  • 00:16:19
    it but also that you get their physical
  • 00:16:21
    address and there's one case in there
  • 00:16:23
    which um it at least lines up on the
  • 00:16:26
    timeline uh and they say that this
  • 00:16:28
    alleged hacker from Scattered Spider the
  • 00:16:32
    um prolific hacking
  • 00:16:34
    collective communicated with a money
  • 00:16:36
    laundering service on Telegram that they
  • 00:16:40
    didn't realize was an undercover FBI
  • 00:16:42
    operation And this uh alleged hacker
  • 00:16:44
    originally asked for $50,000 and they
  • 00:16:46
    upped it to
  • 00:16:48
    $75,000 and the FBI mailed the cash to
  • 00:16:51
    them He got their physical address and
  • 00:16:53
    whatever And this person went on to
  • 00:16:56
    flash a bunch of cash on Snapchat And
  • 00:16:58
    these are violent criminals They do um
  • 00:17:02
    very highprofile hacking operations They
  • 00:17:05
    steal a lot of money and they also
  • 00:17:06
    conduct physical violence against one
  • 00:17:08
    another and members of the public And
  • 00:17:10
    yes of course this operation was done in
  • 00:17:14
    order to investigate these people but
  • 00:17:16
    you can't dance around the fact that it
  • 00:17:19
    facilitated them in some way as well And
  • 00:17:21
    there's a and there's a tension there
  • 00:17:23
    And you know some people will fall on
  • 00:17:24
    one side some people fall on the other
  • 00:17:26
    maybe some in the middle but you have to
  • 00:17:28
    like address that tension cuz this is
  • 00:17:30
    wild You know it's really really crazy
  • 00:17:33
    Yeah So I mean in this case there's drug
  • 00:17:35
    trafficking uh prosecutions in Miami a
  • 00:17:39
    robbery in San Francisco and then you
  • 00:17:41
    know a lot of hacking and then
  • 00:17:45
    um you know some some like pretty
  • 00:17:47
    high-profile
  • 00:17:49
    um hackers
  • 00:17:50
    were wrapped up in this right yeah I
  • 00:17:53
    mean the main one that we point to is
  • 00:17:55
    the scattered spider uh investigation
  • 00:17:59
    but the authorities are remaining very
  • 00:18:02
    very tight-lipped on this And of course
  • 00:18:06
    originally when they started to figure
  • 00:18:07
    out the contours of this um operation I
  • 00:18:11
    you know I would love to speak to the
  • 00:18:13
    agents even if it's the agents at the US
  • 00:18:15
    Post and Inspection Service who were
  • 00:18:17
    part of the undercover buys or of course
  • 00:18:18
    the FBI or the prosecutors And I would
  • 00:18:20
    love to talk to the um the money mules
  • 00:18:23
    as well Uh it's been a while since I
  • 00:18:26
    covered a case where
  • 00:18:29
    everybody basically doesn't talk except
  • 00:18:32
    the prosecutors very very briefly in a
  • 00:18:34
    in a in a few um emails with me Defense
  • 00:18:37
    lawyers wouldn't get back to me Um the
  • 00:18:40
    people uh who actually did some of the
  • 00:18:42
    crimes didn't get back to me FBI didn't
  • 00:18:46
    US PIS um didn't either And I've figured
  • 00:18:50
    out why that is It's cuz when you go
  • 00:18:52
    through the court transcripts the
  • 00:18:54
    prosecutors explicitly say "We haven't
  • 00:18:57
    done a press release about this because
  • 00:18:59
    there's ongoing investigations." And now
  • 00:19:02
    the Elon Musk persona um has retired I
  • 00:19:06
    sent it a DM on Telegram and it doesn't
  • 00:19:08
    it doesn't look like it delivered So
  • 00:19:10
    whoever is in control of that FBI hasn't
  • 00:19:13
    responded um to my request for comment
  • 00:19:16
    But that so this is going to maybe not
  • 00:19:20
    snowball but more will come out about
  • 00:19:22
    this you know give it I don't know
  • 00:19:24
    couple of months something like that I'm
  • 00:19:26
    sure there'll be a big splashy press
  • 00:19:28
    release saying how the FBI did this but
  • 00:19:30
    they really don't want to talk about it
  • 00:19:31
    for the moment and I guess just the last
  • 00:19:32
    thing I'll say before we go to the next
  • 00:19:34
    segment is that another reason they may
  • 00:19:37
    not want to talk about it is because
  • 00:19:38
    authorities did some pretty
  • 00:19:40
    controversial stuff here beyond running
  • 00:19:42
    the moneyaundering operation um while
  • 00:19:45
    conversing with Elon Musk in an
  • 00:19:47
    undercover capacity They sent the person
  • 00:19:51
    some YouTube links in an attempt to you
  • 00:19:53
    know build rapport that sort of thing
  • 00:19:55
    The authorities then demanded that
  • 00:19:57
    Google turn over the IP addresses and
  • 00:20:00
    identifying information of everybody who
  • 00:20:02
    watched those YouTube videos um over
  • 00:20:05
    like an 8day period something like that
  • 00:20:07
    And Forbes actually covered that demand
  • 00:20:09
    a while ago because they found an
  • 00:20:11
    unsealed court record but they didn't um
  • 00:20:14
    they didn't have all of the context
  • 00:20:15
    which now we've built upon after Forbes
  • 00:20:17
    reporting as well And experts that
  • 00:20:20
    Forbes spoke to at the time is like well
  • 00:20:21
    that's unconstitutional because you may
  • 00:20:24
    have just done basically some search
  • 00:20:27
    warrant or court order that implicates a
  • 00:20:29
    bunch of people because they happen to
  • 00:20:30
    watch a YouTube video which thousands of
  • 00:20:32
    people have already watched So there's a
  • 00:20:35
    ton of stuff in this story I definitely
  • 00:20:37
    recommend people go read the full thing
  • 00:20:39
    because we're almost just scratching the
  • 00:20:41
    surface It's a 3,500word
  • 00:20:44
    um piece But yeah it it was a fun one
  • 00:20:47
    I'm glad we could get it out Yeah I mean
  • 00:20:49
    the last thing I'll say is just like you
  • 00:20:52
    know you as you mentioned you've covered
  • 00:20:53
    the FBI doing like kind of secretly
  • 00:20:56
    running these criminal organizations or
  • 00:20:58
    posing as criminals or running like
  • 00:21:00
    criminal infrastructure over the years
  • 00:21:03
    And every time you do it I'm like "Oh
  • 00:21:04
    well they've they've done everything
  • 00:21:06
    now." And it it was funny when you wrote
  • 00:21:09
    this piece I was like "Oh I guess they I
  • 00:21:11
    hadn't thought about them running a dark
  • 00:21:13
    web moneyaundering operation." And
  • 00:21:15
    surely the next time this happens I will
  • 00:21:18
    be surprised again But I I mean I have
  • 00:21:20
    to say
  • 00:21:21
    like I'm running out of ideas for things
  • 00:21:24
    that the the FBI can can run secretly
  • 00:21:27
    without people knowing in order to
  • 00:21:29
    entrap criminals Yeah I guess a VPN or
  • 00:21:33
    something would be a good one Like I
  • 00:21:35
    feel like that must have happened and we
  • 00:21:36
    just don't know about it But you're
  • 00:21:37
    right they will they will leverage any
  • 00:21:40
    criminal infrastructure they can to um
  • 00:21:42
    flip it against them and that brings up
  • 00:21:44
    all Haven't they tried to run tour exit
  • 00:21:46
    nodes before possibly Yes Well or they
  • 00:21:50
    the Carnegie Melon thing maybe we don't
  • 00:21:52
    shouldn't get into it but years ago they
  • 00:21:53
    they tried to unmask tour traffic by
  • 00:21:56
    doing something with Carnegie Melon
  • 00:21:59
    which had control of some tour exit
  • 00:22:02
    nodes I believe Yeah back in around 2014
  • 00:22:04
    And that's how they unmasked Silk Road 2
  • 00:22:06
    I was actually looking back into that
  • 00:22:08
    case because I feel like it's been long
  • 00:22:09
    enough Uh if you're listening you know
  • 00:22:11
    more about that please let me know It's
  • 00:22:13
    it's you know 10 years at this point so
  • 00:22:14
    I think we should go back and uh try and
  • 00:22:16
    get the full story on that Um let's
  • 00:22:18
    leave that there cuz we have a
  • 00:22:22
    jam-packed segment about tariffs and
  • 00:22:25
    Trump Uh deliberately didn't put at the
  • 00:22:27
    front of the show cuz people be like "Oh
  • 00:22:29
    good We're going to have a podcast not
  • 00:22:31
    about politics." Well now you're here
  • 00:22:32
    We're going to bait and switch you
  • 00:22:34
    because we actually have a ton of stuff
  • 00:22:35
    that I think that other people aren't
  • 00:22:36
    really covering or at least from our
  • 00:22:38
    perspective Um we'll be right back after
  • 00:22:42
    this
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    [Music]
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    [Music]
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    shopify.com/media All right and we are
  • 00:27:34
    back Um let's keep these stories short
  • 00:27:37
    because there's a a lot to get through
  • 00:27:38
    from a lot of different angles Um the
  • 00:27:41
    first one is uh written by both Emanuel
  • 00:27:45
    and Jason I think big tech backed Trump
  • 00:27:48
    for acceleration They got a del
  • 00:27:51
    president instead Um Emanuel I I guess
  • 00:27:54
    you can start us off here Who backed
  • 00:27:57
    Trump in big tech and and why did they
  • 00:28:00
    do that and then we'll get to the detail
  • 00:28:01
    part Like what who did it and what were
  • 00:28:03
    they after initially obviously Elon Musk
  • 00:28:05
    who is in the administration uh at Doge
  • 00:28:09
    doing all the slashing of government
  • 00:28:11
    agencies but also Andre Horowitz uh the
  • 00:28:16
    venture capital firm backing some of the
  • 00:28:18
    biggest tech companies in the world Uh
  • 00:28:20
    Mark Andre specifically is very vocal
  • 00:28:22
    and is advising the administration
  • 00:28:26
    Um David Saxs who is one of the PayPal
  • 00:28:30
    mafia people and has a podcast about
  • 00:28:33
    tech and is also in the administration
  • 00:28:36
    now as a cryptocurrency and AIS are And
  • 00:28:39
    as you can tell by me saying they all
  • 00:28:41
    have some kind of role in the
  • 00:28:42
    administration and what they do there
  • 00:28:45
    The reason they back Trump is well their
  • 00:28:48
    stated reason is that they are for
  • 00:28:52
    technological progress They're for
  • 00:28:54
    innovation They are very focused on AI
  • 00:28:57
    right now both in terms
  • 00:29:00
    of their ideals and their their their
  • 00:29:03
    politics but their business as well and
  • 00:29:07
    they thought that the Biden
  • 00:29:09
    administration Lena Khan's FTC
  • 00:29:12
    uh various laws that they tried to pass
  • 00:29:15
    and executive orders that the Biden
  • 00:29:17
    administration tried to pass on uh
  • 00:29:19
    regulating AI all of that
  • 00:29:21
    was not helping AI develop wasn't making
  • 00:29:26
    America very competitive globally and AI
  • 00:29:29
    and Trump who is anti-regulation
  • 00:29:31
    anti-bay government
  • 00:29:33
    anti-welfare is not very concerned about
  • 00:29:36
    the energy and carbon costs of training
  • 00:29:40
    huge AI models He would be better for
  • 00:29:44
    the cause and they backed him
  • 00:29:47
    financially they backed him uh
  • 00:29:50
    publicly and they all got to play a role
  • 00:29:55
    in the administration in some fashion or
  • 00:29:58
    a lot of them did Uh
  • 00:30:01
    but that I don't think worked out like
  • 00:30:04
    they wanted No right now we have these
  • 00:30:08
    mounting tariffs As we're recording
  • 00:30:10
    there's more than 100% tariff on China
  • 00:30:13
    and then all all of this other all of
  • 00:30:14
    this other stuff as well But what do you
  • 00:30:17
    mean that Trump is Del and I think you
  • 00:30:20
    should probably define that because I
  • 00:30:21
    don't think most people know that
  • 00:30:23
    service is Yeah So all the people I
  • 00:30:25
    describe fall into this camp in
  • 00:30:29
    technology but more specifically around
  • 00:30:32
    AI that's all about acceleration And the
  • 00:30:34
    idea there is that humanity has sort of
  • 00:30:39
    stagnated in innovation And the way for
  • 00:30:43
    us to make society better and make
  • 00:30:45
    everybody prosper is to really push
  • 00:30:48
    forward on developing technologies
  • 00:30:51
    faster than we have been in the past few
  • 00:30:54
    decades and with a particular focus on
  • 00:30:58
    AI And in order to do that they think
  • 00:31:01
    you have to lift a lot of the government
  • 00:31:03
    regulations sort of upend how we do a
  • 00:31:05
    lot of things in in in this country and
  • 00:31:08
    globally So that's the accelerationist
  • 00:31:11
    camp and they use the term del as a
  • 00:31:18
    derogatory term to refer to anyone who
  • 00:31:20
    stands in their way So they want to
  • 00:31:22
    accelerate and push form push forward
  • 00:31:26
    and broadly speaking liberals democrats
  • 00:31:30
    the left people who are worried about
  • 00:31:32
    climate change people who are for some
  • 00:31:37
    sort of austerity when it comes to uh
  • 00:31:40
    energy they are all decelerating and are
  • 00:31:44
    referred to as del And then there's also
  • 00:31:46
    this big concept of degrowth where you
  • 00:31:50
    don't want to just slow things down You
  • 00:31:52
    want to kind of scale back humanity's
  • 00:31:55
    footprint as a whole Um which I mean
  • 00:31:58
    this is a more extreme position but it's
  • 00:32:00
    one
  • 00:32:01
    that they point out a lot which is
  • 00:32:04
    they're like pro-natalist and they want
  • 00:32:06
    more people because we're going to max
  • 00:32:09
    out the population of of the planet and
  • 00:32:11
    then go to other planets and all this is
  • 00:32:13
    going to be possible because of space
  • 00:32:14
    travel and AI and infinite energy and
  • 00:32:16
    yada yada yada And then there are some
  • 00:32:18
    camps in the left that are like well
  • 00:32:20
    actually we're not going anywhere this
  • 00:32:22
    is our only planet and the only way to
  • 00:32:23
    make it sustainable in the long term is
  • 00:32:26
    to reduce the population
  • 00:32:28
    uh of humanity on the planet overall Um
  • 00:32:33
    and yeah that that's also obviously like
  • 00:32:35
    a del degrowth position Yeah And Trump
  • 00:32:40
    isn't exactly promoting growth right now
  • 00:32:44
    with company stocks tumbling free trade
  • 00:32:48
    being a thing of the past And of there's
  • 00:32:50
    a fant the sub headline of the article
  • 00:32:52
    which I'll just read out because it's so
  • 00:32:54
    good Effective accelerationists didn't
  • 00:32:56
    just accidentally shoot themselves in
  • 00:32:58
    the foot They methodically blew off each
  • 00:33:00
    of their toes with a 50 caliber sniper
  • 00:33:02
    rifle Who came up with a 50 caliber
  • 00:33:04
    sniper rifle i couldn't decide if it was
  • 00:33:06
    Emanuel or Jason Obviously me Obviously
  • 00:33:08
    it's me the gamer but I was corrected
  • 00:33:10
    and I was told that um you would not be
  • 00:33:13
    able to do that with the 50 cal You
  • 00:33:14
    you'd blow off your whole leg
  • 00:33:15
    immediately with a Yeah but I think I
  • 00:33:17
    think you know that I know Whatever It's
  • 00:33:19
    okay It's all good I appreciate I
  • 00:33:21
    appreciate the gun nuts who pointed that
  • 00:33:24
    out to me Yeah Okay Sure I mean we'll
  • 00:33:27
    get into it in the other stories I think
  • 00:33:29
    they're they're all kind of tied
  • 00:33:30
    together but like a a big part of of you
  • 00:33:33
    know del versus
  • 00:33:35
    accelerationism versus you know
  • 00:33:37
    globalism versus not is
  • 00:33:40
    like even with something like clean
  • 00:33:43
    energy you know you have like really
  • 00:33:45
    cheap solar panels coming out of China
  • 00:33:48
    for example and that that has like led
  • 00:33:49
    to like a a huge increase in capacity uh
  • 00:33:53
    in the United States and elsewhere And
  • 00:33:55
    you have like this kind of global
  • 00:33:57
    competition where there's a theory that
  • 00:34:00
    and it's a pretty good theory I think
  • 00:34:02
    that you have like American companies
  • 00:34:04
    competing against companies from all
  • 00:34:06
    over the world and tariffs are like an
  • 00:34:09
    artificial barrier on that And so if you
  • 00:34:14
    are trying to get like the best and
  • 00:34:16
    brightest ideas to rise to the top you
  • 00:34:19
    sort of want free trade you want
  • 00:34:21
    American companies to be able to take
  • 00:34:22
    advantage of you know inexpensive labor
  • 00:34:26
    the manufacturing capabilities of other
  • 00:34:28
    countries etc etc You have a more like
  • 00:34:31
    interconnected world And you know
  • 00:34:35
    there's a there's some good and some bad
  • 00:34:36
    that comes with that but I think that
  • 00:34:40
    sort of putting
  • 00:34:41
    up across the board tariffs means
  • 00:34:45
    there's like more hurdles to that And so
  • 00:34:48
    if you are an accelerationist who says
  • 00:34:50
    we really need to invest in the future
  • 00:34:52
    of technology broadly speaking um you
  • 00:34:56
    know that you have kind of these Silicon
  • 00:34:59
    Valley folks who will complain about
  • 00:35:01
    competition from China but like a new
  • 00:35:05
    innovation from China in artificial
  • 00:35:07
    intelligence for example that can
  • 00:35:09
    quickly become incorporated into
  • 00:35:12
    American artificial intelligence or and
  • 00:35:14
    you can take that across like any sort
  • 00:35:16
    of technology
  • 00:35:18
    And by putting up tariffs like you're
  • 00:35:20
    making all that kind of a lot harder And
  • 00:35:23
    you have an entire you know class of
  • 00:35:26
    people who say if we're going to stop
  • 00:35:27
    climate change like you sort of need a
  • 00:35:29
    race toward like a technological utopia
  • 00:35:33
    And I'm not saying that that is what we
  • 00:35:35
    need because I think it's like far more
  • 00:35:37
    complex than that
  • 00:35:40
    But Trump is
  • 00:35:43
    undoubtedly decelerationist with these
  • 00:35:46
    tariffs uh as opposed to the alternative
  • 00:35:48
    Yeah So you asked about like what Trump
  • 00:35:50
    said and I
  • 00:35:51
    think as we've said since 2016 or 2015
  • 00:35:55
    it really doesn't matter what he says
  • 00:35:57
    it's what he's doing And I think when he
  • 00:35:59
    was talking in the campaign he was
  • 00:36:00
    aligning himself with these people and
  • 00:36:02
    it was like "Yeah I'm pro AI and I'm pro
  • 00:36:04
    cryptocurrency and I'm pro innovation
  • 00:36:05
    and all this stuff." So in terms of what
  • 00:36:08
    he says he's for this stuff They're on
  • 00:36:10
    the same page But in reality this has
  • 00:36:13
    been a disaster And it's a disaster for
  • 00:36:16
    reasons that Jason could get into in a
  • 00:36:18
    in a moment and and that he covers very
  • 00:36:20
    well in his stories
  • 00:36:23
    But you're just the the the
  • 00:36:26
    protectionist isolationist policies that
  • 00:36:30
    Trump is implementing even on a long
  • 00:36:33
    enough timeline where they do unsure a
  • 00:36:36
    lot of these jobs that over the decades
  • 00:36:39
    have been exported to other countries
  • 00:36:42
    It's like it's fundamentally a world
  • 00:36:44
    view that is incompatible with this kind
  • 00:36:47
    of utopian
  • 00:36:48
    technoutopian techno optimist utopian uh
  • 00:36:52
    vision that these people have because in
  • 00:36:55
    order to colonize other planets and do
  • 00:36:58
    cold fusion and cloning and biotech and
  • 00:37:02
    all this stuff It's it's a global effort
  • 00:37:04
    It's a
  • 00:37:06
    societywide effort that requires free
  • 00:37:09
    trade It requires all these special
  • 00:37:12
    specialized manufacturing hubs right
  • 00:37:14
    it's like you get chips coming out of
  • 00:37:16
    Taiwan and you get the rare earth mil uh
  • 00:37:19
    uh minerals coming out of parts of
  • 00:37:20
    Africa and it's just like we can't build
  • 00:37:22
    this stuff without leveraging all of
  • 00:37:27
    humanity And then on top of that as
  • 00:37:30
    we've reported over the last few weeks a
  • 00:37:34
    lot of this development comes from
  • 00:37:37
    academia and it comes out of government
  • 00:37:39
    agencies and like the all all the
  • 00:37:42
    technologies that we are now leveraging
  • 00:37:44
    nuclear
  • 00:37:46
    uh
  • 00:37:48
    semiconductors they're all originally
  • 00:37:51
    born out of like
  • 00:37:53
    government project or government
  • 00:37:55
    subsidies and certainly the greatest
  • 00:37:59
    minds in the world who are coming to
  • 00:38:02
    this country in order to go to the the
  • 00:38:04
    best universities in the world and all
  • 00:38:06
    the policies about um cutting funding to
  • 00:38:10
    universities and deporting students for
  • 00:38:13
    their politics Uh that's just also
  • 00:38:16
    inherently incompatible with with uh
  • 00:38:19
    accelerationism
  • 00:38:21
    And I'm checking Twitter all day just to
  • 00:38:24
    see if like all these people that I
  • 00:38:26
    mentioned have said anything about this
  • 00:38:28
    And they either have not said anything
  • 00:38:30
    They're just like totally quiet Mark
  • 00:38:32
    Andre has not tweeted in more than a
  • 00:38:34
    week Or they're starting to say like
  • 00:38:35
    "Hey these tariffs are not good Like
  • 00:38:37
    let's find a way out of this tariff
  • 00:38:40
    strategy as soon as possible because
  • 00:38:43
    this is going to destroy my value It's
  • 00:38:45
    going to destroy my companies and it's
  • 00:38:47
    going to destroy our vision for the
  • 00:38:49
    future." Yeah And I mean last thing on
  • 00:38:51
    this and then you know some of the other
  • 00:38:53
    stories will be quicker is that I think
  • 00:38:55
    a lot of Silicon Valley has been
  • 00:38:57
    expecting deregulation across the board
  • 00:39:00
    which is very good for stock prices
  • 00:39:02
    usually and there's not been that many
  • 00:39:05
    IPOs in Silicon Valley you know in
  • 00:39:08
    recent years So I think you had a lot of
  • 00:39:10
    venture capitalists really like pushing
  • 00:39:12
    for Trump waiting for all these like
  • 00:39:16
    tech companies to be deregulated and
  • 00:39:19
    they have been in some ways but then you
  • 00:39:21
    add tariffs on top of it and you have
  • 00:39:23
    all this uncertainty that Emanuel is
  • 00:39:25
    talking about So people don't want to
  • 00:39:27
    IPO so they don't get their exit so they
  • 00:39:29
    don't get their money and then the other
  • 00:39:31
    thing is that tariffs are like worse
  • 00:39:34
    than regulations They're they're a type
  • 00:39:36
    of regulation in many ways but um if you
  • 00:39:39
    know what the regulations are the
  • 00:39:41
    argument goes you can like work around
  • 00:39:43
    them you can capture them you can lobby
  • 00:39:45
    against them and you know if you're big
  • 00:39:47
    enough you can kind of continue doing
  • 00:39:49
    your business Whereas if you have a
  • 00:39:52
    tariff one day and then no tariff the
  • 00:39:54
    next day and then a different tariff the
  • 00:39:56
    next day it's like you don't know where
  • 00:39:57
    to build your factory You don't know how
  • 00:39:59
    to do your supply chains And so it ends
  • 00:40:02
    up having the effect of being like worse
  • 00:40:06
    than any sort of regular regulation
  • 00:40:08
    because you don't even know what the
  • 00:40:09
    rules are going to be and therefore you
  • 00:40:11
    can't run your business Yeah Um and
  • 00:40:15
    that's all very important especially you
  • 00:40:18
    know about academic and health research
  • 00:40:20
    and all of that but the switch too is
  • 00:40:22
    going to probably get more expensive And
  • 00:40:24
    I think we need to we need to focus on
  • 00:40:26
    that This is a story from Jason Sea of
  • 00:40:29
    idiocy Uh economists say Trump tariffs
  • 00:40:32
    will raise price of switch 2 and
  • 00:40:34
    everything else You actually wrote this
  • 00:40:35
    like pretty early on in the first batch
  • 00:40:38
    of the tariff announcement And look I
  • 00:40:39
    know I said 100% earlier who knows what
  • 00:40:42
    the tariffs are when you're listening to
  • 00:40:43
    this right now I'm not even going to get
  • 00:40:44
    specific It could change in literally 20
  • 00:40:46
    minutes I don't know So there's no point
  • 00:40:47
    Just imagine there's tariffs okay there
  • 00:40:49
    probably is Um how's it going to affect
  • 00:40:51
    the price of the Switch 2 Jason yeah So
  • 00:40:55
    I mean it sounds frivolous but like the
  • 00:40:57
    day that the uh tariffs were announced
  • 00:41:00
    Liberation Day was also the day that the
  • 00:41:02
    Switch 2 was announced which is just you
  • 00:41:03
    know massively anticipated consumer tech
  • 00:41:06
    product And notably Nintendo shifted a
  • 00:41:10
    lot of its manufacturing from China to
  • 00:41:12
    Vietnam and Cambodia in part seemingly
  • 00:41:16
    to try to avoid tariffs which tariffs on
  • 00:41:19
    China which a lot of tech companies have
  • 00:41:21
    done Like Apple has moved a lot of its
  • 00:41:23
    manufacturing to Vietnam India other
  • 00:41:26
    countries that are not China because
  • 00:41:28
    there's less tariffs there And actually
  • 00:41:30
    a lot of Chinese companies have set up
  • 00:41:32
    like I I guess you'd call them
  • 00:41:34
    subsidiaries or shell corporations in
  • 00:41:36
    like Mexico Vietnam etc So a lot of
  • 00:41:39
    these um factories like in Vietnam are
  • 00:41:42
    sort of like assembling Chinese products
  • 00:41:45
    and then importing them to the US at
  • 00:41:47
    lower rates So in any case it's just
  • 00:41:50
    like I I emailed a bunch of economics
  • 00:41:52
    professors uh you know I talked to
  • 00:41:54
    someone at Harvard I talked to someone
  • 00:41:55
    at Princeton and I said like what is
  • 00:41:57
    going to happen here because I thought
  • 00:41:59
    it would be an interesting uh like
  • 00:42:02
    microcosm of what is going to happen to
  • 00:42:04
    a lot of other things and you know with
  • 00:42:06
    the caveat that all of them said we
  • 00:42:08
    aren't sure what's going to happen with
  • 00:42:10
    any individual product they said you
  • 00:42:13
    know like even though Nintendo announced
  • 00:42:15
    a release date and a price which is $449
  • 00:42:19
    in the United States They were maybe
  • 00:42:23
    planning on having some tariffs but they
  • 00:42:25
    certainly weren't planning on having
  • 00:42:26
    like 50% tariffs 80% tariffs Like who
  • 00:42:29
    knows what the tariffs are going to be
  • 00:42:32
    And so some of the professors I spoke to
  • 00:42:34
    said like it's entirely possible that
  • 00:42:36
    Nintendo will increase the price And
  • 00:42:39
    others said you know maybe Nintendo will
  • 00:42:42
    eat the tariffs like take a a less uh
  • 00:42:45
    like a hit on the profitability of the
  • 00:42:48
    Switch or take a bigger loss on the
  • 00:42:50
    Switch We don't know how much it costs
  • 00:42:53
    to make a Switch too But traditionally
  • 00:42:55
    video games consoles have been sold at a
  • 00:42:58
    loss and then companies make up that
  • 00:43:00
    price with from all the games that you
  • 00:43:02
    buy And so there's some people saying
  • 00:43:04
    like "Oh well maybe they'll just like
  • 00:43:06
    take even a bigger loss on the Switch to
  • 00:43:08
    hardware and and make money." And then
  • 00:43:10
    lo and behold the next day Nintendo
  • 00:43:12
    announces that it's you know canceling
  • 00:43:14
    not canceling pre-orders but it's not
  • 00:43:16
    going to it's going to delay
  • 00:43:18
    pre-ordering for the Nintendo Switch 2
  • 00:43:21
    And so in the US in the US in the US and
  • 00:43:24
    so presumably like we don't really know
  • 00:43:29
    um you know if the console itself is
  • 00:43:32
    going to be delayed if Nintendo is going
  • 00:43:35
    to try to shift manufacturing somewhere
  • 00:43:38
    else if it's going to raise the price if
  • 00:43:40
    it's going to release the Nintendo
  • 00:43:42
    Switch 2 globally but not in the US to
  • 00:43:46
    start which would seem crazy but I mean
  • 00:43:48
    these are kind of unprecedented times
  • 00:43:50
    times I think historically Nintendo is
  • 00:43:54
    the only console maker that doesn't sell
  • 00:43:56
    at a loss They either break even or make
  • 00:43:59
    a small profit and that just has been
  • 00:44:02
    their strategy for several cycles It's
  • 00:44:04
    cuz they're selling old hardware Am I
  • 00:44:06
    right i mean they they they push power
  • 00:44:10
    uh less than their competitors and in
  • 00:44:14
    order to like you know make cleaner
  • 00:44:18
    margins Um but uh so so that's a good
  • 00:44:22
    like it might cost around what is it
  • 00:44:24
    $450 is the price Yeah Right now So it's
  • 00:44:27
    like it's probably it probably costs
  • 00:44:29
    something around that But for them to
  • 00:44:32
    say all they want at this point is to
  • 00:44:36
    get as many pre-orders as possible in
  • 00:44:38
    order to start counting on that
  • 00:44:40
    money to come in once the console
  • 00:44:44
    launches So for them to pull out of what
  • 00:44:48
    I assume is the biggest market in the
  • 00:44:50
    world for their business is so so dire
  • 00:44:55
    And Nintendo was the first to do it but
  • 00:44:59
    as like some of our other stories show
  • 00:45:02
    not the last Yeah let's mention the
  • 00:45:05
    Framework um laptop here So Framework is
  • 00:45:08
    a repairable upgradeable laptop that is
  • 00:45:12
    made by a California company but
  • 00:45:14
    manufactured in Taiwan And they
  • 00:45:16
    announced on Monday that they're going
  • 00:45:19
    to stop selling the entrylevel framework
  • 00:45:23
    uh laptop in the United States because
  • 00:45:26
    they said like they straight up said
  • 00:45:27
    that they planned for a world where
  • 00:45:29
    there was zero tariff on Taiwan And that
  • 00:45:32
    that's the world that they existed in
  • 00:45:33
    previously and they can't count on that
  • 00:45:35
    anymore So they're no longer selling it
  • 00:45:37
    to people in the US I think Razer just
  • 00:45:40
    announced the the laptop manufacturer
  • 00:45:42
    that that they're going to pull some
  • 00:45:46
    Razer pauses direct laptop sales in the
  • 00:45:48
    US as new tariffs loom was a headline
  • 00:45:51
    just before we started recording Razer
  • 00:45:54
    manufacturer of
  • 00:45:56
    like high-end gaming PC hardware Yeah Um
  • 00:46:02
    so you have those and I'm sure look
  • 00:46:04
    while we're recording there's probably
  • 00:46:05
    another one we've missed and there's
  • 00:46:06
    going to be more in the coming days Um
  • 00:46:09
    the Nintendo delaying of the pre-orders
  • 00:46:11
    was insane and I think unprecedented at
  • 00:46:14
    least in my memory I don't remember
  • 00:46:16
    something like that And then we're
  • 00:46:17
    seeing it in the high-end consumer
  • 00:46:20
    electronics and then maybe it's going to
  • 00:46:21
    trickle down to other stuff right um and
  • 00:46:23
    talking about other stuff you know much
  • 00:46:26
    more widely used technology uh is the
  • 00:46:30
    iPhone obviously And there's this idea
  • 00:46:34
    um and I don't have it verbatim in front
  • 00:46:35
    of me so correct me if I'm wrong Jason
  • 00:46:36
    but generally the idea is that with
  • 00:46:38
    these tariffs of course manufacturing
  • 00:46:40
    will move to the US At least that's the
  • 00:46:42
    Trump administration's hope And that
  • 00:46:44
    could include Apple and magically a
  • 00:46:47
    magically a factory is going to appear
  • 00:46:49
    And then Americans are all going to be
  • 00:46:51
    screwing the screws into iPhones and
  • 00:46:53
    that sort of thing Um you wrote this
  • 00:46:55
    piece Um which was very good A US-made
  • 00:46:58
    iPhone is pure fantasy Why is that yeah
  • 00:47:03
    So maybe let's play the clip here Uh
  • 00:47:05
    it's Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnik
  • 00:47:08
    on CBS's Face the Nation Um so here's
  • 00:47:11
    the clip Great American workers You know
  • 00:47:13
    we are going to replace other armies of
  • 00:47:16
    millions of people Well remember the
  • 00:47:18
    army of millions and millions of human
  • 00:47:21
    beings screwing in little little screws
  • 00:47:23
    to make iPhones That kind of thing is
  • 00:47:25
    going to come to America And then like
  • 00:47:29
    immediately after I published this
  • 00:47:31
    article Trump said that he believes that
  • 00:47:33
    iPhones can be made in the United States
  • 00:47:36
    And this is like an idea that pops up
  • 00:47:39
    every couple years Uh there was a big
  • 00:47:41
    push to uh try to make Mac Pros in the
  • 00:47:45
    United States And Apple did do that for
  • 00:47:48
    a little while Like it's been a goal of
  • 00:47:50
    every president since I believe Obama to
  • 00:47:54
    for Apple to like bring some
  • 00:47:55
    manufacturing back to the US And it has
  • 00:47:58
    brought some assembly back to the US It
  • 00:48:01
    has a factory in Austin Texas where you
  • 00:48:05
    know they do some Mac Pros but not all
  • 00:48:08
    Mac Pros which are like the very
  • 00:48:09
    high-end like $5,000 desktop computers
  • 00:48:14
    And you know I've reported on supply
  • 00:48:17
    chains on mining on the iPhone in
  • 00:48:20
    particular and the repair industry for a
  • 00:48:23
    long time and also Apple's sort of like
  • 00:48:25
    environmental record how the iPhone is
  • 00:48:28
    made like labor issues around it so on
  • 00:48:30
    and so forth And it's just ludicrous to
  • 00:48:34
    suggest that Apple is going to somehow
  • 00:48:37
    move iPhone manufacturing to the United
  • 00:48:39
    States And it's not clear what that
  • 00:48:41
    would even mean
  • 00:48:43
    Um you know you could possibly
  • 00:48:47
    bring iPhone assembly to the United
  • 00:48:50
    States like that is theoretically
  • 00:48:53
    possible I guess where you would hire a
  • 00:48:55
    bunch of Americans to do the little
  • 00:48:57
    screws
  • 00:48:58
    Um but the components in the
  • 00:49:02
    iPhone like I think that you need to
  • 00:49:05
    realize the iPhone is one of the most
  • 00:49:07
    complicated and just miracle of modern
  • 00:49:11
    engineering and modern supply chains
  • 00:49:14
    It's the most complicated device like
  • 00:49:17
    ever made at the scale that it's made
  • 00:49:19
    It's just like this tiny little box that
  • 00:49:22
    has you know hundreds of different types
  • 00:49:24
    of metals and minerals and sensors and
  • 00:49:27
    components inside of it Uh my friend our
  • 00:49:31
    friend Brian Merchant wrote this book
  • 00:49:33
    called The One Device that's about all
  • 00:49:35
    of the components that are inside the
  • 00:49:36
    iPhone and where they came to be and
  • 00:49:38
    where they come from And it's truly just
  • 00:49:40
    like a global thing Um you know every
  • 00:49:44
    year Apple releases information about
  • 00:49:47
    its suppliers Uh this is like a 28page
  • 00:49:52
    PDF like tiny tiny type that just says
  • 00:49:56
    here are all the manufacturers that we
  • 00:49:58
    work with Almost all of them are in
  • 00:50:01
    countries that are not the United States
  • 00:50:02
    And you're talking about you know the
  • 00:50:04
    circuit boards the superconductors the
  • 00:50:08
    uh the chips the memory like the
  • 00:50:12
    Bluetooth
  • 00:50:13
    um whatever like all that stuff You know
  • 00:50:16
    what I'm talking about the inside of the
  • 00:50:18
    phone is being made by like hundreds of
  • 00:50:22
    companies all over the world And so even
  • 00:50:26
    if it was ultimately assembled in the
  • 00:50:29
    United States it still all these
  • 00:50:31
    components are going to be subject to
  • 00:50:32
    tariffs Um you know they have to release
  • 00:50:35
    information about all of the mines that
  • 00:50:37
    they work with where all of the metals
  • 00:50:40
    and rare earth minerals come from So the
  • 00:50:43
    United States has one single mine in
  • 00:50:45
    California that does rare earth minerals
  • 00:50:48
    which you know these are things like
  • 00:50:50
    neodymium and other things that I'm
  • 00:50:52
    blanking on the names of right now that
  • 00:50:54
    do like touchscreen
  • 00:50:56
    um capacitive touch and things like that
  • 00:50:59
    And it's like these come from largely
  • 00:51:02
    China but all over the world they uh
  • 00:51:06
    released this document that says that
  • 00:51:08
    they get tin gold and two other minerals
  • 00:51:12
    from 79 different countries 200
  • 00:51:15
    different refineries and smelters all
  • 00:51:18
    over the world And so the idea that just
  • 00:51:21
    you're going to snap your fingers and
  • 00:51:23
    suddenly be able to do all of that in
  • 00:51:25
    the United States is ludicrous Um I
  • 00:51:28
    think that you know tariffs may very
  • 00:51:32
    well push Apple to make more of the
  • 00:51:36
    phone in the United States and to try to
  • 00:51:38
    do more in the United States but that's
  • 00:51:40
    a really long process
  • 00:51:44
    And there's been reports that Apple flew
  • 00:51:47
    like three giant planes full of iPhones
  • 00:51:49
    to the United States today to avoid
  • 00:51:52
    tariffs because the um deadline for when
  • 00:51:55
    these go into effect is Wednesday And so
  • 00:51:59
    it's just like this is there's going to
  • 00:52:02
    be a lot of pain regardless of of sort
  • 00:52:04
    of what happens here Yeah Uh apparently
  • 00:52:08
    it's five planes filled with filled with
  • 00:52:11
    iPhones which is nuts And then last
  • 00:52:14
    thing I'll say just before we started
  • 00:52:15
    recording the US pre uh press secretary
  • 00:52:18
    said you know these jobs could quote
  • 00:52:20
    absolutely come to the US Um and this
  • 00:52:25
    was specifically about iPhone
  • 00:52:26
    manufacturing Quote Trump believes we
  • 00:52:28
    have the labor we have the workforce we
  • 00:52:30
    have the resources to do it And then you
  • 00:52:32
    know the press press secretary said
  • 00:52:34
    Apple's investments in the US well they
  • 00:52:36
    wouldn't have done those if they didn't
  • 00:52:37
    think there was potential for growth in
  • 00:52:39
    the US Uh they might just do that one
  • 00:52:42
    because they were already doing it
  • 00:52:43
    actually before the Trump administration
  • 00:52:45
    There was already a lot of movement
  • 00:52:46
    there Also [ __ ] it What else are you
  • 00:52:48
    going to do you got to do it otherwise
  • 00:52:50
    you're going to get completely screwed
  • 00:52:51
    Right So I mean let me let me talk about
  • 00:52:53
    the labor part really quickly because uh
  • 00:52:56
    you know Howard Lutnick was like "Oh
  • 00:52:58
    we're just going to make robots that uh
  • 00:53:00
    will assemble the iPhones and Americans
  • 00:53:02
    will make those robots." Oh first of all
  • 00:53:05
    it's like the like we don't have that
  • 00:53:08
    expertise here like TSMC who makes um
  • 00:53:11
    you know superconductors and famously
  • 00:53:14
    now has a factory in Arizona had to
  • 00:53:17
    import people from Taiwan on special
  • 00:53:20
    visas which you know not a great time to
  • 00:53:24
    immigrate to the United States right now
  • 00:53:26
    In order to build that factory Fox Con
  • 00:53:29
    was supposed to build a factory in
  • 00:53:30
    Wisconsin spent billions of dollars
  • 00:53:32
    doing it and it never went into effect
  • 00:53:35
    And half of the people who work at TSMC
  • 00:53:37
    now that it is open are Taiwanese And
  • 00:53:40
    the reason for that is like there
  • 00:53:43
    there's just not the expertise in the
  • 00:53:44
    United States right now And so you know
  • 00:53:47
    it's possible that you know with
  • 00:53:50
    reskilling and you know it's it's called
  • 00:53:52
    reshoring where you're bringing
  • 00:53:53
    manufacturing back to the United States
  • 00:53:55
    I think it's like a lotable goal and
  • 00:53:57
    there's ways of doing it and you know
  • 00:53:59
    Joe Biden's uh chips act was doing a lot
  • 00:54:01
    of that There's been a lot of incentives
  • 00:54:03
    over the years where people are bringing
  • 00:54:05
    that sort of expertise to the US and are
  • 00:54:07
    training people how to do it But that's
  • 00:54:09
    a long it's a long process It's like
  • 00:54:12
    China Vietnam Cambodia etc They've been
  • 00:54:14
    doing this for decades at this point And
  • 00:54:17
    that is they have a an education system
  • 00:54:19
    and a training system that um you know
  • 00:54:23
    has allowed them to make really
  • 00:54:26
    high-tech factories over there We don't
  • 00:54:28
    have that to the same extent here And
  • 00:54:31
    right now Apple still like Apple's
  • 00:54:33
    manufacturing partners because it has a
  • 00:54:35
    lot of different companies that make
  • 00:54:36
    different components There's 1.4 million
  • 00:54:39
    people who do that and it's like you
  • 00:54:43
    have one you have essentially one
  • 00:54:45
    factory in uh Arizona TSMC and they
  • 00:54:49
    can't even find enough Americans to
  • 00:54:51
    staff that one factory at this point So
  • 00:54:55
    laudable goal but it's just like I don't
  • 00:54:57
    see it It's It's going to take a really
  • 00:54:59
    long time for something like this to
  • 00:55:01
    come fully back to the United States And
  • 00:55:03
    what happens in the meantime it's like
  • 00:55:05
    you have Apple flying five planes worth
  • 00:55:07
    of iPhones here Well what happens when
  • 00:55:09
    the new phone is supposed to come out in
  • 00:55:11
    September uh or next year or the year
  • 00:55:13
    after that like this is a multi-year
  • 00:55:15
    process and the tariffs are here now So
  • 00:55:19
    I don't know what's going to happen but
  • 00:55:21
    it it doesn't seem good Yeah Stuff's
  • 00:55:24
    going to get crazy Um All right We'll
  • 00:55:26
    leave that there If you're listening to
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    the free version of the podcast on now
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    is trying to silence and why Jason in
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Etiquetas
  • data breaches
  • Delete Me
  • money laundering
  • FBI
  • tariffs
  • technology
  • Nintendo Switch
  • iPhone
  • accelerationism
  • manufacturing