A brush with... Charline von Heyl

00:58:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyzC1W9LGK0

Resumo

TLDRIn this episode of 'A Brush With,' host Ben Luke interviews artist Charlene Von Hil, known for her original and complex paintings that defy traditional categorization. Charlene discusses her artistic influences, including her experiences in Germany during the 1980s and 1990s, and how they shaped her approach to painting. She emphasizes the importance of emotional engagement in her work, the interplay of various artistic styles, and her fascination with the act of painting itself. Charlene shares insights into her creative process, the significance of solitude, and how she navigates the balance between choice and chance in her art. The conversation also touches on the role of titles, the influence of historical artists, and the relationship between art and creativity, highlighting Charlene's belief that art should inspire and trigger creativity in the audience.

Conclusões

  • 🎨 Charlene Von Hil's art defies traditional definitions.
  • 🖌️ Her paintings aim for emotional and intellectual engagement.
  • 🌍 Influenced by her experiences in Germany and beyond.
  • 🧘‍♀️ Solitude is essential for her creative process.
  • 🔄 She balances choice and chance in her work.
  • 📚 Titles reflect her thoughts and emotional context.
  • 🧪 Experimentation is key to her artistic expression.
  • 🖼️ Historical artists influence her, but she maintains a unique style.
  • 💡 Art should trigger creativity in the audience.
  • 🌟 Charlene believes in the transformative power of art.

Linha do tempo

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The podcast 'A Brush With' is introduced, sponsored by Bloomberg Connects, an app that connects users to cultural institutions worldwide. Host Ben Luke welcomes artist Charlene Von Hil, known for her unique and complex painting style that defies traditional categorization.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Charlene Von Hil's art is described as emotionally and intellectually engaging, with layers of forms and a mix of styles. Her work resists a signature style, revealing more depth the longer one observes it. She is part of a group of contemporary artists exploring new possibilities in painting.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Born in Germany in 1960, Charlene's early career was shaped by a vibrant art scene in the 1980s. She studied painting in Hamburg and later in Dorf, where she developed her practice amidst debates about the role of painting. Her work reflects a fascination with paint and the act of painting itself.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Charlene's paintings often feature recognizable shapes alongside abstract forms, with a focus on color relationships and texture. She avoids seriality, instead exploring contrasting forms and techniques, which keeps her work fresh and engaging.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    In the mid-2000s, Charlene began incorporating hard-edged graphic elements into her work, creating dynamic compositions that challenge traditional narratives. Her approach involves a balance of choice and chance, allowing the painting to dictate its direction.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    Charlene discusses her creative process, emphasizing the importance of solitude in the studio. She often spends time visualizing and contemplating before physically painting, allowing intuition to guide her decisions.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The artist explains her use of rules in her practice, which can lead to moments of wild creativity. She often starts with fast collages to stimulate her visual thinking before transitioning to painting, blending speed with meticulousness.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    Charlene reflects on the moment she becomes the audience for her work, noting that declaring a painting finished can take time. She describes the satisfaction of revisiting older works and finding new ways to bring them to life.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    The conversation touches on the influence of historical artists and the importance of personal memory in Charlene's work. She acknowledges the impact of various cultural experiences and the role of solitude in her artistic development.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Charlene shares her admiration for contemporary artists and the importance of community in her practice. She values the exchange of ideas and inspiration among her peers, which fuels her creativity.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:58:01

    The podcast concludes with a discussion on the nature of art and its role in triggering creativity in both the artist and the audience, emphasizing the necessity of art in human expression.

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Vídeo de perguntas e respostas

  • What is the main theme of the episode?

    The episode explores Charlene Von Hil's unique approach to painting and her artistic influences.

  • Who is the guest artist in this episode?

    The guest artist is Charlene Von Hil.

  • What does Charlene Von Hil say about her painting style?

    Charlene's painting style defies traditional definitions, aiming for emotional and intellectual engagement.

  • What influences Charlene's work?

    Charlene is influenced by various artists, cultural experiences, and her childhood memories.

  • How does Charlene describe her creative process?

    She describes her process as a balance between solitude, experimentation, and the interplay of choice and chance.

  • What role does solitude play in Charlene's work?

    Solitude is essential for her creative process, allowing her to explore her thoughts and ideas without distractions.

  • What is the significance of titles in Charlene's paintings?

    Titles often reflect her thoughts and the emotional context of the work, sometimes referencing literature or personal experiences.

  • How does Charlene view the relationship between art and creativity?

    She believes art should trigger creativity in the audience, fostering a loop of inspiration and expression.

  • What is the importance of experimentation in Charlene's practice?

    Experimentation allows her to discover new possibilities and push the boundaries of her artistic expression.

  • What does Charlene say about the influence of historical artists on her work?

    She acknowledges the impact of historical artists but emphasizes her unique interpretation and personal style.

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  • 00:00:00
    [Music]
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    [Music]
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    content hello I'm Ben Luke and welcome
  • 00:00:26
    to a brush with the podcast from the art
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    newspaper in which I'm talk to artists
  • 00:00:30
    about their influences from writers to
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    musicians filmmakers and of course other
  • 00:00:34
    artists and the cultural experiences
  • 00:00:36
    that have shaped their lives and work
  • 00:00:39
    and in this episode it's a brush with
  • 00:00:40
    Charlene Von Hil one of the most
  • 00:00:42
    original painters working today her art
  • 00:00:45
    deliberately defies description evading
  • 00:00:47
    Orthodox definitions like abstract or
  • 00:00:49
    figurative by attempting to reach a
  • 00:00:51
    space in which the viewer is emotionally
  • 00:00:53
    and intellectually engaged to the extent
  • 00:00:55
    that such terms are meaningless a place
  • 00:00:57
    she has said where thoughts and feelings
  • 00:00:59
    meet her canvases are complex with
  • 00:01:01
    multiple layers of forms applied with
  • 00:01:03
    apparently contradictory languages from
  • 00:01:05
    intricately applied patterns and hard
  • 00:01:07
    edges to free flowing painterly passages
  • 00:01:10
    the images she paints are similarly
  • 00:01:11
    disperate with identifiable shapes
  • 00:01:13
    alongside more loose lyrical in coert
  • 00:01:16
    forms and while some patterns motifs
  • 00:01:18
    techniques color relationships and
  • 00:01:20
    structures might repeat particularly
  • 00:01:22
    among discrete clusters of paintings
  • 00:01:24
    Charlene resists having a signature
  • 00:01:26
    style she keeps herself and us as
  • 00:01:28
    viewers guessing her paint paintings are
  • 00:01:30
    the opposite of one liners instead
  • 00:01:32
    revealing more the longer they're
  • 00:01:33
    absorbed while she's entirely individual
  • 00:01:36
    in her language Charlene is one of a
  • 00:01:38
    number of artists internationally who
  • 00:01:39
    are testing the possibilities of
  • 00:01:41
    painting in the 21st century Charlene
  • 00:01:44
    was born in 1960 in the German City
  • 00:01:47
    mines she lives today between New York
  • 00:01:49
    and Marfa in Texas from where she joined
  • 00:01:51
    me for this conversation she studied
  • 00:01:53
    painting first at the Haw Schuler for
  • 00:01:55
    build and de kiner in Hamburg and then
  • 00:01:57
    at the kst Academy in Dorf as we'll hear
  • 00:02:00
    these early years of her career in the
  • 00:02:02
    1980s began against the backdrop of a
  • 00:02:04
    tumultuous debate in Germany about the
  • 00:02:06
    discipline of painting with starkly
  • 00:02:08
    different factions from heroic Neo
  • 00:02:10
    expressionists like gaor baslet and anel
  • 00:02:12
    kefir to Maverick figures taking a more
  • 00:02:15
    ironic approach to the medium and the
  • 00:02:16
    role of the artist like Martin
  • 00:02:18
    kienberger as Charlene has said she
  • 00:02:20
    started out as a painter in an
  • 00:02:22
    environment where painting was something
  • 00:02:24
    powerful and has never lost that feeling
  • 00:02:26
    the work she made in dorf in the early
  • 00:02:28
    1990s established many of the conditions
  • 00:02:30
    that apply to her practi day seemingly
  • 00:02:33
    any form and means of application are up
  • 00:02:35
    for grabs and while they're questioning
  • 00:02:37
    and irreverent they also evidence a
  • 00:02:39
    profound Fascination and I would argue
  • 00:02:41
    even a passion for paint and the act of
  • 00:02:43
    painting at the center of an Untitled
  • 00:02:45
    painting from 1995 for instance is the
  • 00:02:48
    rear end of a horse but it's set within
  • 00:02:50
    a composition that's far from
  • 00:02:51
    conventional narrative painting a Morin
  • 00:02:54
    to the fragmentation of collage shapes
  • 00:02:56
    suggest recognizable things the blade of
  • 00:02:58
    a knife perhaps or hints of heads and
  • 00:03:00
    bodies even a much larger horses who
  • 00:03:02
    rendered entirely differently from those
  • 00:03:04
    at the heart of the canvas elsewhere
  • 00:03:06
    there are nods to decorative pattern and
  • 00:03:07
    shape the structures of an interior
  • 00:03:09
    space perhaps and even what looks to me
  • 00:03:11
    like a btic spider meanwhile the
  • 00:03:14
    painterly gestures vary from Flat
  • 00:03:15
    Plaines of color most prominently in an
  • 00:03:17
    arc of yellow to repetitive hatching and
  • 00:03:20
    drips evocative of abstract
  • 00:03:22
    expressionism Charlene moved to New York
  • 00:03:24
    from Germany in the mid 1990s and over
  • 00:03:26
    the years whilst toning and expanding
  • 00:03:29
    her practice she's maintained the
  • 00:03:30
    plurality and curiosity of those early
  • 00:03:32
    years the paintings of the late 1990s
  • 00:03:35
    became more abstract while never quite
  • 00:03:36
    shaking off suggestions of recognizable
  • 00:03:39
    shape by 2000 she had begun introducing
  • 00:03:41
    playful and evocative titles that hinted
  • 00:03:43
    at the thoughts that underpinned her
  • 00:03:45
    work but also confirmed a guiding poetic
  • 00:03:47
    sensibility a love of elusive and
  • 00:03:49
    Elusive language unlike a lot of artists
  • 00:03:52
    engaged with abstraction Charlene avoids
  • 00:03:54
    seriality and though some pieces possess
  • 00:03:57
    shared elements different paintings
  • 00:03:58
    appear preoccupied with entirely
  • 00:04:00
    contrasting forms of Mark making color
  • 00:04:02
    harmonies and texture looking at her
  • 00:04:04
    pictures I have flashes of recognition
  • 00:04:06
    of historic and modern painting as she
  • 00:04:08
    engages consciously and unconsciously
  • 00:04:11
    with the long trajectory of her medium
  • 00:04:13
    she's called paintings time tunnels and
  • 00:04:15
    has pondered the strange and beautiful
  • 00:04:16
    fact of their survival across centuries
  • 00:04:19
    from the mid 2000s hard-edged graphic
  • 00:04:22
    elements have increasingly featured in
  • 00:04:23
    her work she enjoys the Collision of
  • 00:04:25
    starles and methods always finding novel
  • 00:04:27
    ways to choreograph them across the
  • 00:04:29
    canvas in pink Vendetta from 2009 the
  • 00:04:32
    central form is like a cartoon explosion
  • 00:04:34
    defined at least it appears by painting
  • 00:04:37
    opaque white over a loose pink abstract
  • 00:04:39
    field flushed stains are overlaid in red
  • 00:04:42
    with broken lines and clusters of marks
  • 00:04:43
    that appear to have been made by
  • 00:04:45
    dragging paint Laden fingers across the
  • 00:04:47
    surface but then over them there are
  • 00:04:49
    geometric curves and circles and a run
  • 00:04:51
    of triangles that suggests the tooth
  • 00:04:53
    edge of a cog or a wheel the composition
  • 00:04:55
    at once bursts forward and Retreats
  • 00:04:58
    Charlene is a supreme inv Center of
  • 00:05:00
    complex spatial Dynamics in the last
  • 00:05:02
    decade that's been particularly evident
  • 00:05:04
    in her use of what appear to be collaged
  • 00:05:06
    elements yet are in fact painted shapes
  • 00:05:08
    that were initially stuck to the canvas
  • 00:05:10
    but subsequently executed in paint to
  • 00:05:12
    look like collage as we'll hear as an
  • 00:05:14
    intentional strategy charene will set
  • 00:05:16
    about the painstaking rendering of these
  • 00:05:17
    forms and repetitive patterns as a means
  • 00:05:19
    of building up to moments where she can
  • 00:05:21
    unleash what she's called wild energy
  • 00:05:23
    for Bolder moves the template forms
  • 00:05:25
    which she called stickers can vary from
  • 00:05:27
    five-pointed stars to human heads and
  • 00:05:29
    profiles stylized flam likee forms
  • 00:05:32
    bottles and bowling pins with every use
  • 00:05:34
    they're reinvented as if Charlene is
  • 00:05:36
    pushing herself always to see them a new
  • 00:05:39
    but also engaging in a kind of
  • 00:05:40
    automatism where the painting dictates
  • 00:05:43
    where it will lead and it's this with
  • 00:05:44
    which I began our conversation Charlene
  • 00:05:47
    has said that she wants her paintings to
  • 00:05:48
    invent themselves but also to keep
  • 00:05:50
    surprising her so I asked her how does
  • 00:05:53
    she create the conditions for this to
  • 00:05:54
    happen
  • 00:05:57
    [Music]
  • 00:06:01
    what I think a painting should do it
  • 00:06:03
    should trigger something creative in the
  • 00:06:07
    person looking at it it should not be a
  • 00:06:10
    fact that is all sealed in itself it
  • 00:06:14
    should actually be something that is
  • 00:06:16
    open and have different ways of being
  • 00:06:19
    seen that means that a painting is
  • 00:06:22
    something that I want to trigger things
  • 00:06:25
    in me that I didn't know before you like
  • 00:06:27
    that several options in the painting
  • 00:06:29
    that it's not an idea that I have that
  • 00:06:32
    will be Illustrated but that it actually
  • 00:06:35
    does to me what I wanted to do to other
  • 00:06:38
    people that I'm the first audience so it
  • 00:06:41
    needs to surprise me and to even have
  • 00:06:44
    you like this weird in between of a
  • 00:06:47
    certain uncomfortable alienation and
  • 00:06:51
    sparking curiosity in me where I'm sure
  • 00:06:54
    you have heard that before from artists
  • 00:06:57
    especially painters that there is a
  • 00:06:59
    point offer painting and I think that's
  • 00:07:01
    the most interesting one and that's
  • 00:07:02
    where I want to get to where the
  • 00:07:04
    painting Works despite itself you like
  • 00:07:08
    that you look at a painting and you
  • 00:07:09
    think this cannot possibly work as a
  • 00:07:12
    painting you like there are so many
  • 00:07:14
    elements in there that are contradictory
  • 00:07:16
    or they're just not jelling as a natural
  • 00:07:20
    choice or whatever might be colors might
  • 00:07:22
    be lines might be Vibes might be moods
  • 00:07:26
    but it does work and I think that's
  • 00:07:28
    actually also The Works that we as
  • 00:07:31
    artists look at is trying to find those
  • 00:07:34
    Works you're like what is it that makes
  • 00:07:36
    it so I want to make those paintings and
  • 00:07:39
    I can imagine that getting there is
  • 00:07:41
    difficult to manufacture in a sense that
  • 00:07:43
    the whole process of painting there is
  • 00:07:46
    this kind of fraught balance I like the
  • 00:07:48
    fact that you talk about choice and
  • 00:07:50
    chance and this balance between those
  • 00:07:52
    two factors in the work yeah that's why
  • 00:07:55
    I need to be alone in the studio you
  • 00:07:57
    like my practice really involves itude
  • 00:08:00
    very much and it might look as if I'm
  • 00:08:03
    just lounging but the reality is that
  • 00:08:06
    I'm carrying that your like visual
  • 00:08:08
    computer around my head and I'm just
  • 00:08:12
    shooting through gazillions of
  • 00:08:14
    possibilities before I get up and do
  • 00:08:17
    exactly the thing that I thought I I
  • 00:08:19
    wouldn't do and it's weird because it's
  • 00:08:22
    really using the head to fool the
  • 00:08:25
    intuition into acting up you're like
  • 00:08:28
    it's it's something very interesting
  • 00:08:30
    because it's not in the end what I came
  • 00:08:32
    up with by thought that is going to
  • 00:08:35
    happen it is something that just the
  • 00:08:37
    mere sitting there and looking and
  • 00:08:40
    imagining brought up from somewhere else
  • 00:08:43
    and can there be days when you'll go to
  • 00:08:45
    the studio and will not paint but you'll
  • 00:08:47
    sit there painting in your head if you
  • 00:08:49
    like so in other words you're working
  • 00:08:52
    but you're not necessarily picking up a
  • 00:08:53
    brush and applying paint to a
  • 00:08:56
    surface yeah that's basically all the
  • 00:08:58
    time I mean I mean it's just I'm
  • 00:09:01
    probably like 5 hours or so not much
  • 00:09:03
    longer actually my attention span is not
  • 00:09:05
    the greatest in the studio and of that
  • 00:09:08
    time the actual painting time will be
  • 00:09:11
    maybe 1 hour or so so most of the time
  • 00:09:14
    is really looking and it's not just
  • 00:09:17
    making a painting in my head it really
  • 00:09:18
    is also literally looking at images you
  • 00:09:21
    know like opening the computer and just
  • 00:09:23
    going through really weird old blogs or
  • 00:09:26
    there are fantastic painters Tumblr
  • 00:09:29
    accounts which I love because it's not
  • 00:09:31
    about personality it's just really about
  • 00:09:33
    finding idiosyncratic choices and so I
  • 00:09:36
    just get stimulated by that and then I
  • 00:09:39
    will see this one weird little orange
  • 00:09:42
    Corner that triggers desire in me and
  • 00:09:44
    then I want to have something similar it
  • 00:09:46
    doesn't have to be that orange corner
  • 00:09:48
    but it has to be something that renders
  • 00:09:51
    me excited in the same way that that did
  • 00:09:53
    you're like and it might be a
  • 00:09:54
    conventional move or it might be
  • 00:09:55
    something bizarre doesn't matter but the
  • 00:09:58
    time in the studio is really a time of
  • 00:10:00
    visual manufacturing and I also know
  • 00:10:03
    that you set yourself rules at times and
  • 00:10:05
    these can be quite painstaking to follow
  • 00:10:07
    through but they perform all sorts of
  • 00:10:10
    functions right in the sense that yes
  • 00:10:11
    there's a formal function in terms of
  • 00:10:13
    the painting right but also I love this
  • 00:10:16
    idea that you said that because of the
  • 00:10:17
    tedium sometimes in following rules that
  • 00:10:20
    can then prompt a sort of wild period
  • 00:10:22
    that actually gives you access to a
  • 00:10:24
    different kind of making which actually
  • 00:10:26
    completes the work or or pushes it into
  • 00:10:28
    a new Direction yes and I actually love
  • 00:10:30
    doing that my work has always been about
  • 00:10:32
    those two different speeds the
  • 00:10:34
    meditative speed of uh either you like
  • 00:10:37
    filling out a pattern that might be a
  • 00:10:40
    background that I might completely
  • 00:10:41
    overpaint I mean the things that I
  • 00:10:43
    usually start a body of work with before
  • 00:10:45
    I even get to painting is uh works on
  • 00:10:48
    paper and that very often involves
  • 00:10:51
    scissors it's often collage because
  • 00:10:54
    collage is the fastest way that you can
  • 00:10:55
    visually think you like it's just and
  • 00:10:58
    it's also the most extreme way because
  • 00:11:00
    it allows you to check out how much the
  • 00:11:05
    eye can take and so for me it is a way
  • 00:11:07
    to crank up the old eye motor to make
  • 00:11:11
    really fast collages and be getting uh
  • 00:11:13
    geared up for that visual extreme so to
  • 00:11:18
    speak and uh it is something that I at
  • 00:11:20
    some point in the last year started to
  • 00:11:23
    do with painting as well that I would
  • 00:11:24
    make very fast paintings on paper and
  • 00:11:27
    cut them out so that they're totally
  • 00:11:29
    random pieces and then you like go with
  • 00:11:33
    those pieces into the painting and stick
  • 00:11:35
    them on with tape there's always this
  • 00:11:37
    moment where a piece like that gets
  • 00:11:39
    sucked into the painting and like in the
  • 00:11:42
    way that in the computer you're like the
  • 00:11:44
    image suddenly merges with the rest and
  • 00:11:47
    then I stick it there and
  • 00:11:50
    painstakingly copy it into the painting
  • 00:11:52
    afterwards so you have those two
  • 00:11:54
    elements of total speed and total
  • 00:11:57
    intuition with actually also an idea of
  • 00:12:00
    Mastery because then I get really nerdy
  • 00:12:02
    and want it to look exactly like that
  • 00:12:04
    piece of paper even though that was like
  • 00:12:06
    a slobbery weird kind of junky two
  • 00:12:10
    seconds move so it's almost like
  • 00:12:12
    trumploy it's almost a visual trick yes
  • 00:12:15
    it is it totally is a visual trick I
  • 00:12:18
    think that at some point anything very
  • 00:12:21
    visual has to be also tricky but you
  • 00:12:24
    also resist virtuoso Behavior so on the
  • 00:12:27
    one hand there's great moments of skill
  • 00:12:29
    as you say in that copying of a colage
  • 00:12:31
    that's a skillful act right but I
  • 00:12:33
    suppose the trick is there is to resist
  • 00:12:36
    the appearance of overt skill or kind of
  • 00:12:39
    showing off in a way yeah to hide it
  • 00:12:42
    yeah but then in the end it's not hidden
  • 00:12:45
    because in the end you have a painting
  • 00:12:47
    that nobody else could copy basically
  • 00:12:50
    actually you're like I could copy it
  • 00:12:53
    right you have an entity of a painting
  • 00:12:55
    that is its own world and it's not about
  • 00:12:58
    that anymore it's not about the trickery
  • 00:12:59
    it's not about the uh proving a point in
  • 00:13:03
    one way or the other it really is about
  • 00:13:05
    the image and what it adds to the world
  • 00:13:07
    and how somebody will make it their own
  • 00:13:11
    when they stand in front of it yeah how
  • 00:13:13
    it is going to put oxygen in their brain
  • 00:13:16
    and can you always pinpoint the moment
  • 00:13:18
    where you become the audience rather
  • 00:13:20
    than the maker for the work is there
  • 00:13:22
    always an end point which is very
  • 00:13:24
    recognizable yes and it is very
  • 00:13:26
    recognizable even in so far that I might
  • 00:13:29
    have made this decision to not touch a
  • 00:13:31
    painting anymore but then there will be
  • 00:13:33
    months before I declare it actually done
  • 00:13:36
    and in that month at the end there might
  • 00:13:39
    actually be something happening more
  • 00:13:42
    often than what it actually is there are
  • 00:13:44
    also moments where I finish a painting
  • 00:13:46
    and it's just their bang and uh even
  • 00:13:49
    faster than I could say finished it's
  • 00:13:51
    finished but that's not a rules it
  • 00:13:54
    really takes as much work to declare a
  • 00:13:57
    painting finished as to finish it but I
  • 00:14:01
    was really intrigued to read that there
  • 00:14:02
    can be paintings which you've set aside
  • 00:14:04
    for a number of years even but they can
  • 00:14:07
    kind of be redeemed or brought into the
  • 00:14:09
    present by a single Motif yes so I think
  • 00:14:11
    it was with the Poetry machine paintings
  • 00:14:13
    you had three very disperate paintings
  • 00:14:15
    which because you had a particular Motif
  • 00:14:17
    you wanted to use you could change them
  • 00:14:18
    and then they would gain a new sort of
  • 00:14:20
    impetus yes and that's very satisfying
  • 00:14:24
    you're like it's it's almost like I have
  • 00:14:26
    those zombies those bodies laying in the
  • 00:14:29
    studio and and know that they're there
  • 00:14:31
    and they actually they have a certain
  • 00:14:32
    weight you like they they are an
  • 00:14:34
    annoying presence and uh so I hide them
  • 00:14:38
    away in the studio storage but I know
  • 00:14:41
    that they are there because they're
  • 00:14:42
    clumping up the studio and it is
  • 00:14:45
    actually in moments when I have finished
  • 00:14:47
    a body of works or when I start a new
  • 00:14:49
    body of works I look at them again and
  • 00:14:51
    it's true over years I can look at them
  • 00:14:53
    again and again and think no this is
  • 00:14:55
    just sucking energy out of me right now
  • 00:14:57
    I will not be able to de deal with it
  • 00:14:59
    and then there will be the one moment
  • 00:15:01
    where I'm really understanding the move
  • 00:15:04
    and it wants to happen and there it is
  • 00:15:06
    and that's very very satisfying to
  • 00:15:08
    suddenly have it be completely alive and
  • 00:15:12
    unpredicted yeah it must be a fantastic
  • 00:15:14
    feeling the beginning of each painting I
  • 00:15:16
    know that you don't have a a very clear
  • 00:15:18
    plan but is it right that line is always
  • 00:15:21
    the way you begin with a line even
  • 00:15:23
    though of course other factors become
  • 00:15:26
    prominent in the work line is the
  • 00:15:28
    beginning a drawing if you like is the
  • 00:15:29
    beginning well actually it's sometimes
  • 00:15:32
    also just a color or a mood it's almost
  • 00:15:36
    as if I'm tuning myself into a certain
  • 00:15:39
    Vibe before I even start with the color
  • 00:15:41
    or line for example I will have this
  • 00:15:44
    feeling that I want to have a painting
  • 00:15:47
    that really has a heart of tenderness so
  • 00:15:50
    I will have a different way of holding
  • 00:15:52
    the brush or you like the charcoal
  • 00:15:55
    drawing will be very slow lines where
  • 00:15:57
    this tenderness kind of suffuses the
  • 00:16:00
    image and it will be a beginning and it
  • 00:16:03
    might be not there at the end but I
  • 00:16:05
    think it starts a desire for something
  • 00:16:08
    to happen that gives me something back
  • 00:16:10
    that I need at that time or it might be
  • 00:16:13
    something about Freedom you're like
  • 00:16:14
    where I'm just celebrate the gesture as
  • 00:16:17
    such you know and and put that down as
  • 00:16:20
    an energy and then you like the painting
  • 00:16:23
    comes out of an energy and not out of
  • 00:16:26
    meditation and that's a completely
  • 00:16:28
    different painting yeah it has something
  • 00:16:30
    to do with who I am in the studio at
  • 00:16:32
    that point it has something to do with
  • 00:16:35
    all the synchronicities that lead to it
  • 00:16:37
    the way that the stuff that I've been
  • 00:16:38
    reading the way the work that I have
  • 00:16:41
    been looking at the way the world has
  • 00:16:44
    treated me in that moment but it's just
  • 00:16:46
    a start in the end the painting might
  • 00:16:49
    have nothing to do with that anymore
  • 00:16:51
    there's a really lovely phrase that I
  • 00:16:52
    read actually that you used about some
  • 00:16:54
    of the sort of strategies that you use I
  • 00:16:57
    think it's hacken schlagen
  • 00:16:59
    Haren schlag yes yeah basically when
  • 00:17:02
    prey changes Direction so when a rabbit
  • 00:17:04
    changes Direction yeah when a rabbit is
  • 00:17:06
    running and rabbits are famous for that
  • 00:17:08
    that they suddenly change direction
  • 00:17:11
    completely John corett came up with that
  • 00:17:13
    image and I thought it was perfect and
  • 00:17:16
    that is I think one of my underlying
  • 00:17:18
    character traits is impatience I have
  • 00:17:22
    this attention span that only goes that
  • 00:17:24
    far so I think I have made myself into
  • 00:17:28
    an AR who uses that rather than bemon it
  • 00:17:32
    and that's where the change of Direction
  • 00:17:34
    comes in if something doesn't seem to
  • 00:17:36
    work even if I have just spent three
  • 00:17:38
    hours on it I'm going to sacrifice it
  • 00:17:40
    immediately for another turn just
  • 00:17:43
    because this is the thing that will keep
  • 00:17:45
    the painting going no matter what so to
  • 00:17:47
    speak and it implies a certain urgency
  • 00:17:50
    of course if a painting becomes sluggish
  • 00:17:52
    in some way that by changing direction
  • 00:17:54
    in that way exactly you immediately
  • 00:17:56
    inject a certain urgency I mean there so
  • 00:17:59
    many things that I love in paintings and
  • 00:18:01
    that are important to me I'm a total
  • 00:18:03
    sucker for composition for example and I
  • 00:18:06
    like to go over the top with it and then
  • 00:18:09
    it's super satisfying but then there
  • 00:18:10
    might be the point where that really
  • 00:18:12
    goes on my nerves and then I'm going to
  • 00:18:14
    paint let's say half of that composition
  • 00:18:16
    I overpainted completely white so I I'm
  • 00:18:18
    there with a senseless half of
  • 00:18:21
    completely crazy composition that of
  • 00:18:23
    course becomes an object at that moment
  • 00:18:26
    and then I deal with that as a collage
  • 00:18:29
    part of an image that might be there
  • 00:18:31
    later and so it is hug and schlag and it
  • 00:18:34
    seems to me that a lot of the most
  • 00:18:35
    exciting parts of your paintings are in
  • 00:18:38
    the moments where you have hidden
  • 00:18:40
    passages like I'll be looking at a work
  • 00:18:42
    and I'll see using exactly that strategy
  • 00:18:43
    that you've used as in covering a whole
  • 00:18:45
    section with a particular color with
  • 00:18:47
    white or whatever it seems to me there's
  • 00:18:48
    a hell of a lot that goes on beneath the
  • 00:18:50
    surface and you kind of Honor that yes
  • 00:18:52
    you don't hide it entirely it's a key
  • 00:18:54
    almost like a hum beneath the painting
  • 00:18:56
    if you like yes in most paint things
  • 00:18:59
    that probably is the case things that
  • 00:19:01
    are faint are as important as things
  • 00:19:03
    that are in your face but because I
  • 00:19:06
    don't have a space of Illusion or
  • 00:19:08
    illusional space in the painting it is
  • 00:19:10
    more about traces the shapes are all on
  • 00:19:14
    the surface and the faint ones are
  • 00:19:16
    traces that are as much on the surface
  • 00:19:19
    as the other ones and they play a part
  • 00:19:21
    yes I wanted to just pick up on
  • 00:19:24
    something which you said which I really
  • 00:19:25
    loved because it connects painting with
  • 00:19:28
    a kind of more casual discipline but it
  • 00:19:29
    seems important to me you said that you
  • 00:19:31
    used oil over acrylic like you might use
  • 00:19:34
    creme fresh in a stew
  • 00:19:36
    and and and I thought that was really
  • 00:19:38
    interesting because apart from anything
  • 00:19:40
    else some of the time I imagine one of
  • 00:19:42
    the things that you have to do as an
  • 00:19:43
    artist is to try not to be too precious
  • 00:19:46
    and to therefore make it more like
  • 00:19:48
    cooking than it is like making a very
  • 00:19:49
    important
  • 00:19:52
    artwork absolutely yeah that's really
  • 00:19:55
    funny and now that I'm getting older I
  • 00:19:58
    realized that the real Mastery is to use
  • 00:20:00
    acrylic over oil to actually manipulate
  • 00:20:03
    the mistakes where you know it's going
  • 00:20:05
    to fall off but you also know exactly
  • 00:20:08
    how it is going to fall off and to
  • 00:20:11
    actually play with those things but of
  • 00:20:13
    course those are recipes I mean uh
  • 00:20:15
    painting is there's nothing mysterious
  • 00:20:17
    about it it's just materials acting in
  • 00:20:19
    certain ways and especially my
  • 00:20:21
    generation who grew up without being
  • 00:20:24
    taught how to paint just also grew up
  • 00:20:27
    experimenting like crazy because we had
  • 00:20:29
    to find out ourselves what things do and
  • 00:20:32
    how they act and it was a lot of trial
  • 00:20:34
    and error and this trial and error is
  • 00:20:37
    now actually part of the energy and we
  • 00:20:40
    are still using it not as trial and
  • 00:20:43
    error but as Witnesses of the times of
  • 00:20:46
    trial and error and of quotations of
  • 00:20:48
    trial and error
  • 00:20:52
    [Music]
  • 00:21:05
    so let's move on to the questions that
  • 00:21:06
    we ask all our guests who was the first
  • 00:21:08
    artist whose work you loved as a child I
  • 00:21:11
    was so installed by images that I cannot
  • 00:21:15
    pinpoint where the exact moment is where
  • 00:21:18
    it turned into art or painting like
  • 00:21:21
    there are some lines that are tattooed
  • 00:21:23
    in my brain from very early childhood
  • 00:21:26
    memories of seeing images that triggered
  • 00:21:29
    desire I know that the first artist that
  • 00:21:31
    I was conscious as a painter that
  • 00:21:34
    triggered that same feeling was vs the
  • 00:21:37
    blue Phantom in the museum Ludwick in
  • 00:21:41
    Cologne and I actually had a small show
  • 00:21:43
    in the Rose Museum charene fil and vs
  • 00:21:46
    where that very painting was the
  • 00:21:48
    centerpiece they landed which is kind of
  • 00:21:50
    insane yeah tell me how that felt
  • 00:21:52
    because I know you were very young when
  • 00:21:54
    you saw that painting weren you when we
  • 00:21:55
    first encountered it and were so struck
  • 00:21:57
    by it yes it was like the Sunday family
  • 00:21:59
    outing Museum it felt like all the
  • 00:22:02
    images have felt it started a
  • 00:22:04
    cannibalistic urge you like this kind of
  • 00:22:07
    feeling of I wanted to have it be it be
  • 00:22:09
    in it absorb it and strangely enough it
  • 00:22:13
    was never the feeling of I want to make
  • 00:22:15
    it it was really this I want to own it I
  • 00:22:19
    want to be it and I I still have that
  • 00:22:21
    with images that do something to me that
  • 00:22:24
    it triggers this feeling in my body that
  • 00:22:26
    I want to to be close to it to to eat it
  • 00:22:29
    I don't know it's
  • 00:22:31
    weird that's really wonderful to
  • 00:22:34
    properly absorb it yeah I also wanted to
  • 00:22:36
    pick up here on fairy tales and you
  • 00:22:38
    mentioned that illustrations and things
  • 00:22:39
    are important to you as a child and I
  • 00:22:41
    know that there's a work where you use a
  • 00:22:43
    kind of dictionary phonetic title which
  • 00:22:45
    is called Val in Zam from 2016 that was
  • 00:22:49
    inspired by a fairy tale right and I I
  • 00:22:51
    believe that was a big part of your
  • 00:22:53
    childhood yes I I really had a good
  • 00:22:56
    childhood with a younger brother are
  • 00:22:58
    just young enough that we were partners
  • 00:23:01
    in crime and a big garden and a house
  • 00:23:04
    close to the woods and from the
  • 00:23:06
    beginning of a lot of books and images
  • 00:23:09
    so I think that space of imagination
  • 00:23:13
    that you create in such a played out
  • 00:23:16
    literally played out childhood we had
  • 00:23:18
    this key word do the were this would be
  • 00:23:22
    where you designate every object to be
  • 00:23:24
    something else and that's what children
  • 00:23:26
    do I guess and I think that
  • 00:23:29
    has been important in the making of me
  • 00:23:31
    somehow but I'm not
  • 00:23:33
    sure effectively you're talking about a
  • 00:23:35
    kind of transformative urge yes and
  • 00:23:37
    that's right at the heart of painting
  • 00:23:39
    isn't it yes absolutely that's true I
  • 00:23:41
    didn't need an imaginary friend because
  • 00:23:43
    I had that and then I always had great
  • 00:23:45
    play friends friends that I could roam
  • 00:23:47
    the woods with and we did in the
  • 00:23:49
    summertime we would go out there and we
  • 00:23:51
    had to be back for dinner but we would
  • 00:23:53
    just really literally have a lot of work
  • 00:23:55
    to do rearranging the rivlets and and
  • 00:23:59
    building dams and tree houses and I
  • 00:24:01
    don't know it was
  • 00:24:03
    just it was really great it sounds
  • 00:24:06
    idilic which historical artist do you
  • 00:24:08
    turn to the most today it's
  • 00:24:10
    transactional if I start with a line I
  • 00:24:12
    will be looking at the artists that are
  • 00:24:14
    really important to me in what they have
  • 00:24:16
    been doing with lines like Picasso or B
  • 00:24:19
    buffet or or if it's composition it's
  • 00:24:21
    going to be Lu poova or Toretto or
  • 00:24:25
    something that I come back to all the
  • 00:24:27
    time strangely enough is L and that has
  • 00:24:30
    to do also with this thing that we were
  • 00:24:32
    talking about before this idea of why
  • 00:24:35
    does a painting work what makes a
  • 00:24:37
    painting work and where is that painting
  • 00:24:39
    that shouldn't work but does work but
  • 00:24:42
    I'm also interested in the opposite
  • 00:24:44
    which is why is there a painting that
  • 00:24:47
    should work but doesn't work and there
  • 00:24:49
    are some other artists like that where
  • 00:24:51
    you think why doesn't it work it's those
  • 00:24:54
    insane compositions it's really the line
  • 00:24:57
    is so perfect
  • 00:24:58
    there is a great strange humor in them
  • 00:25:01
    and I'm really thinking about it the
  • 00:25:02
    whole world seems to agree that this is
  • 00:25:04
    not art in the way Picasso is Art even
  • 00:25:07
    though it is just line and color and
  • 00:25:09
    composition and I find that interesting
  • 00:25:12
    and in a certain way I almost want to
  • 00:25:13
    get to those paintings that should work
  • 00:25:16
    but don't so it's complicated and then
  • 00:25:20
    there's also the fact that Kier his
  • 00:25:23
    cousin was Louis Sutter who's almost
  • 00:25:26
    like a shadow image of him he's a
  • 00:25:28
    so-called Outsider artist who has been
  • 00:25:31
    making his paintings in an institution
  • 00:25:34
    in Switzerland and we wouldn't even know
  • 00:25:36
    about him if L Kier himself wouldn't
  • 00:25:39
    have seen what that artist is about and
  • 00:25:42
    he is the one who kind of introduced it
  • 00:25:44
    to the world and I happen to really love
  • 00:25:47
    Louis suter's work and have actually
  • 00:25:49
    also referenced it in my work before so
  • 00:25:51
    this the to me between those two artists
  • 00:25:54
    there is something that really I find
  • 00:25:57
    over and over again
  • 00:25:58
    stimulating so and also ker paintings
  • 00:26:01
    are just so unbelievably funny and he
  • 00:26:03
    made tons of them so just for you're
  • 00:26:06
    like getting the joy in my head I I just
  • 00:26:08
    go there are websites that are dedicated
  • 00:26:10
    to his work and and you actually don't
  • 00:26:12
    find books much I got a catalog Ron and
  • 00:26:15
    it's treasured but it's very hard to get
  • 00:26:18
    yeah it's interesting I mean it's not
  • 00:26:19
    quite the same but I think it's similar
  • 00:26:21
    in a sense because you mentioned Picasso
  • 00:26:23
    was I know that you're a big fan of Juan
  • 00:26:25
    Greece and amongst high-minded IST
  • 00:26:28
    people juang is a lesser artist than
  • 00:26:31
    Picasso and BR because his work isn't as
  • 00:26:33
    difficult or whatever because it's
  • 00:26:34
    somehow decorative or whatever but I
  • 00:26:35
    know that you like that fact that
  • 00:26:37
    there's something in his compositions in
  • 00:26:39
    that ease that you find in Greece that
  • 00:26:41
    is really super powerful yes and I find
  • 00:26:44
    it also if you think about Picasso's
  • 00:26:46
    work Picasso's work is not difficult in
  • 00:26:48
    the end he is really an artist who
  • 00:26:51
    depends on the drawing and then he
  • 00:26:53
    colors it in and he does it in such an
  • 00:26:56
    anarchistic and free ways that he has so
  • 00:26:59
    many good moves and they're so funny and
  • 00:27:03
    there that it's really easy to be
  • 00:27:05
    seduced by him and especially the
  • 00:27:07
    analytic cubism of the later Huang gri
  • 00:27:11
    where he introduces those pop colors are
  • 00:27:14
    extremely sophisticated in a way that
  • 00:27:16
    actually Picasso never would give
  • 00:27:18
    himself the time to do and maybe that is
  • 00:27:21
    the point that people are just so in
  • 00:27:24
    love with this idea of the genius
  • 00:27:26
    gesture that they cannot move that to
  • 00:27:30
    the idea of a genius composition or a
  • 00:27:33
    genius concept because in the end K and
  • 00:27:37
    are more conceptual paintings than
  • 00:27:39
    gestural paintings one of the things I
  • 00:27:41
    pick up on in your painting is that you
  • 00:27:43
    can see or detect certain references you
  • 00:27:46
    see hints of deiro or you see hints of
  • 00:27:48
    other artists but there are very few
  • 00:27:50
    clear absolute sort of pinpointed
  • 00:27:52
    references if you like there's no direct
  • 00:27:54
    quotations or very rare ones I guess the
  • 00:27:56
    closest you get to a direct quotation is
  • 00:27:58
    by using the numbers from Melancholia by
  • 00:28:01
    dur in your painting of the same title
  • 00:28:03
    but generally you avoid quotation would
  • 00:28:05
    that be fair it's not even that I avoid
  • 00:28:07
    it it's just that because I really
  • 00:28:10
    literally have no memory when I'm in
  • 00:28:12
    front of the canvas it doesn't come up
  • 00:28:15
    it's just not a conscious choice that I
  • 00:28:17
    could do of course I am completely
  • 00:28:20
    utterly contaminated with quotations so
  • 00:28:24
    they will pop up from the underbelly and
  • 00:28:27
    I will recog recognize them later and
  • 00:28:29
    then I will leave them or not but I
  • 00:28:31
    think yeah that is actually the right
  • 00:28:33
    word some paintings I leave to be
  • 00:28:35
    contaminated by the vibe of another
  • 00:28:37
    artist and that gives my painting at
  • 00:28:40
    that moment the skeleton it needs or the
  • 00:28:43
    statement it needs or the vibe it needs
  • 00:28:46
    but actually never
  • 00:28:48
    consciously and then of course often in
  • 00:28:50
    the titles you will play with historic
  • 00:28:53
    titles of artworks like I noticed
  • 00:28:55
    there's one work which is called conto
  • 00:28:57
    SP
  • 00:28:58
    so it's using font so I think that's
  • 00:29:01
    really interesting because it's about
  • 00:29:02
    language but it's also about the naming
  • 00:29:05
    and that seems to me to be a really
  • 00:29:06
    productive area for you yes the naming
  • 00:29:09
    comes so much after the fact and it
  • 00:29:12
    really is the last layer I take it very
  • 00:29:15
    serious and it's not easy to do and
  • 00:29:18
    sometimes it is just like moving into
  • 00:29:20
    the same space as another artist as a
  • 00:29:23
    possibility of opening up a painting and
  • 00:29:26
    of course Fontana is one of my absolute
  • 00:29:28
    favorite artists also of that breed of
  • 00:29:32
    artists that I'm most envious about the
  • 00:29:35
    ones that can make clear
  • 00:29:38
    statements and he does it in a really
  • 00:29:41
    funny and interesting way and also
  • 00:29:43
    formally absolutely uh beautiful and
  • 00:29:45
    seductive way so uh he has it all in my
  • 00:29:48
    opinion but it's interesting that you
  • 00:29:50
    don't try and emulate that you say he's
  • 00:29:52
    one of your favorite artists but there's
  • 00:29:54
    no sense in which one would look at your
  • 00:29:56
    work and directly say well of course
  • 00:29:59
    there's Fontana so present in her work
  • 00:30:01
    you know because you admire an artist it
  • 00:30:02
    doesn't mean you have to then try and
  • 00:30:04
    emulate them in any way no that's just
  • 00:30:07
    not how it works that's also why I think
  • 00:30:10
    this idea of influence is always a kind
  • 00:30:13
    of a misunderstanding and a fiction on
  • 00:30:16
    the side of the audience and it's
  • 00:30:18
    actually making the lives of the artist
  • 00:30:21
    more difficult and not more easy because
  • 00:30:23
    the outside critic will be so happy to
  • 00:30:27
    find any clues that might give a key to
  • 00:30:32
    another artist and they always looking
  • 00:30:34
    for a linage but the artists are people
  • 00:30:37
    who are filtering you like there is of
  • 00:30:40
    course influence but is active influence
  • 00:30:43
    where you just filter what you need and
  • 00:30:44
    you uh put it away somewhere where you
  • 00:30:47
    forget it before it comes out again I
  • 00:30:49
    mean there is of course also passive
  • 00:30:51
    influence which is the contamination and
  • 00:30:54
    that's a really funny often disturbing
  • 00:30:56
    almost like really strange thing for
  • 00:31:00
    example I I just found out by looking at
  • 00:31:02
    it it was such a revelation I went to a
  • 00:31:05
    funeral last year in my hometown in the
  • 00:31:08
    old church near the village where I grew
  • 00:31:10
    up which is kind of like a brutalist box
  • 00:31:14
    in that church I I had spent like
  • 00:31:17
    hundreds of Sundays bored out of my
  • 00:31:21
    pants but the one thing about that
  • 00:31:24
    church is that one whole wall of it is
  • 00:31:26
    one big window and it is one big image
  • 00:31:30
    and the image is the burning bush the
  • 00:31:33
    burning thorn bush and I realized that
  • 00:31:36
    for example there is a painting of mine
  • 00:31:38
    called The Burning lemon and suddenly
  • 00:31:40
    the title also makes real sense that's
  • 00:31:43
    in the brost collection which is
  • 00:31:45
    basically the same image those Flames
  • 00:31:48
    that shape that I always thought that I
  • 00:31:50
    had chosen because it's a perfect shape
  • 00:31:53
    that has the curlycue of the wrist and
  • 00:31:55
    the arm and it's loaded as a shape it
  • 00:31:58
    has content but it's also just a Barack
  • 00:32:01
    sort of celebration of line it's so
  • 00:32:03
    useful in so many ways and I have used
  • 00:32:05
    it over and over again I thought that
  • 00:32:06
    was totally my invention and suddenly I
  • 00:32:09
    realized that that damn shape has been
  • 00:32:12
    tattooed in my
  • 00:32:16
    brain many many
  • 00:32:19
    ago let's talk about contemporary which
  • 00:32:21
    contemporary artist you most admire well
  • 00:32:23
    again what I admire is what I can do
  • 00:32:26
    myself it's a big statements and to be
  • 00:32:29
    in the studio and work with a lot of
  • 00:32:30
    people for example when Cara Walker did
  • 00:32:33
    these giant things called a subtlety you
  • 00:32:37
    like that blew my mind or when Laura
  • 00:32:40
    Owens did this Vango installation in the
  • 00:32:42
    Vango Museum in Arles room after room
  • 00:32:45
    after room of things that connect and
  • 00:32:48
    wallpaper and paintings on there and the
  • 00:32:50
    paintings in there and the books like so
  • 00:32:52
    unbelievably generous but also so much
  • 00:32:55
    work and such a visual understanding of
  • 00:32:57
    the whole thing something like that just
  • 00:32:59
    blows my mind that's pure admiration and
  • 00:33:02
    then there are of course all the artists
  • 00:33:04
    that are my friends that I'm talking to
  • 00:33:06
    like jacen humph or Yota CA they are
  • 00:33:09
    really good friends where there's an
  • 00:33:11
    ongoing conversation and there will be
  • 00:33:13
    the one work where I'm just coming into
  • 00:33:16
    the studio and got like oh that's
  • 00:33:19
    great you're
  • 00:33:23
    like but is is there any sense of
  • 00:33:25
    competition because I know that you are
  • 00:33:26
    very much part of an artistic community
  • 00:33:28
    and lots of painters actually and
  • 00:33:30
    therefore is there any sense of like you
  • 00:33:32
    know you go oh and then do you go
  • 00:33:34
    back to the studio and think I've got to
  • 00:33:35
    out my game here of
  • 00:33:38
    course but it's really because we are
  • 00:33:40
    all nerds in the end you like I that are
  • 00:33:42
    really thinking about painting and doing
  • 00:33:44
    something and or like met Conners or
  • 00:33:46
    rich alri or Alex quer I go to their
  • 00:33:49
    Studios and then I'm just like yes
  • 00:33:52
    that's what we are thinking about you're
  • 00:33:53
    like you did it this way it's completely
  • 00:33:55
    different from mine you have inhaled
  • 00:33:57
    other things and you have transformed
  • 00:33:59
    them in different ways but it adds so
  • 00:34:02
    much to my understanding of what
  • 00:34:03
    painting can do and it is such a good
  • 00:34:07
    place to be to have that communication
  • 00:34:09
    and to just take part in it and I'm
  • 00:34:12
    super grateful for that I just have the
  • 00:34:14
    best
  • 00:34:16
    friends one of the things I think so
  • 00:34:18
    interesting about that now is of course
  • 00:34:20
    you emerg from a scene in 1990s Germany
  • 00:34:23
    where you made this very important point
  • 00:34:25
    that because of the stakes in Germany in
  • 00:34:28
    the ' 80s and '90s painting was never
  • 00:34:30
    not important right and that's never
  • 00:34:33
    left you you said that the sense of
  • 00:34:34
    painting is an important and powerful
  • 00:34:36
    thing has always been part of you since
  • 00:34:38
    you were a young artist yeah and I think
  • 00:34:40
    that what it meant was that I didn't
  • 00:34:42
    have to spend a lot of energy into
  • 00:34:46
    fighting the outside I could transfer
  • 00:34:49
    the fight into my studio and fight with
  • 00:34:51
    myself to get to the best conclusion in
  • 00:34:53
    a painting I really had the freedom to
  • 00:34:56
    do the best that I could without having
  • 00:34:59
    to make any statements outside yeah that
  • 00:35:02
    that was important and of course also
  • 00:35:05
    people like Albert an or kienberger were
  • 00:35:08
    just doing something with painting that
  • 00:35:10
    was so incredibly fresh so just as a
  • 00:35:13
    possibility of a painting not having to
  • 00:35:16
    have that weight of reference but to
  • 00:35:19
    actually be in the future and not in the
  • 00:35:21
    past that in itself was a predicament
  • 00:35:25
    that probably gave me a real boost
  • 00:35:28
    I mean now I know I would always have
  • 00:35:30
    painted if life would have thrown me
  • 00:35:32
    into a different time and a different
  • 00:35:33
    space I would have probably made the
  • 00:35:35
    exact same paintings but maybe not maybe
  • 00:35:38
    I am where I am because I actually was
  • 00:35:40
    lucky enough to be at the right time at
  • 00:35:42
    the right moment and place over and over
  • 00:35:46
    again what's so interesting again about
  • 00:35:49
    that is about the different places you
  • 00:35:51
    in in Germany because of course you were
  • 00:35:52
    in Cologne and then you also were in y
  • 00:35:54
    gundor studio in dorf right so so you
  • 00:35:58
    had experience of different scenes and I
  • 00:36:00
    I believe that when you went to dorf
  • 00:36:02
    because of the different nature of the
  • 00:36:04
    debate there that again freshened your
  • 00:36:05
    look at painting in that period it's
  • 00:36:08
    even more than that because I started
  • 00:36:09
    out in Hamburg and hambur kst Academy
  • 00:36:12
    was very media oriented so my very first
  • 00:36:16
    mind blown experiences with art were
  • 00:36:19
    actually in Hamburg so the very first
  • 00:36:21
    crit I had was with France erard Walter
  • 00:36:24
    absolutely hardcore minimalist formalist
  • 00:36:27
    and what he did was he took my works on
  • 00:36:30
    paper which is what I made at the time
  • 00:36:32
    20 years old and he turned them around
  • 00:36:36
    and he said now we're talking and just
  • 00:36:38
    the traces that you saw on the other
  • 00:36:39
    side and that immediately just really
  • 00:36:42
    blew my mind it was like he's so right
  • 00:36:45
    this is so much better on the other side
  • 00:36:48
    so there were those triggers over and
  • 00:36:50
    over again where I would be confronted
  • 00:36:52
    with somebody or something that was just
  • 00:36:55
    new and exciting of course of as a
  • 00:36:58
    person was just a really entertaining
  • 00:37:02
    Larger than Life entity it was just
  • 00:37:05
    being together with some really baffling
  • 00:37:09
    slightly monstrous but also actually the
  • 00:37:13
    word that comes in my mind now is
  • 00:37:14
    tenderness because there was an
  • 00:37:16
    incredible generosity in him and he was
  • 00:37:20
    mind you the guest teacher in Hamburg
  • 00:37:23
    and so he was my first painting teacher
  • 00:37:25
    right and so when I came to D off I went
  • 00:37:29
    to art school and I was in the scha
  • 00:37:32
    surrounding and class where a lot of
  • 00:37:34
    good artists came out like Katarina FR
  • 00:37:36
    was in my class but IM he just blew my
  • 00:37:38
    mind and I went there every morning and
  • 00:37:41
    worked for him I don't even know it
  • 00:37:43
    wasn't that many years but it was just
  • 00:37:49
    great a brush withd is sponsored by
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    Bloomberg connects the arts and culture
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    app the free app offers access to more
  • 00:37:55
    than 500 cultural organizations through
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    a sing Le download with new guides being
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    added regularly among the latest
  • 00:38:00
    additions are a range of British
  • 00:38:02
    organizations including the Roberts
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    Institute of Art tobert Rice Gallery in
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    Edinburgh and the wolver Hampton art
  • 00:38:07
    gallery among the guides on the app are
  • 00:38:09
    numerous museums and galleries in the US
  • 00:38:11
    that have shown and collected Charlene
  • 00:38:13
    Von hil's work from the Whitney Museum
  • 00:38:15
    of American art and the kitchen in New
  • 00:38:17
    York to the IC in Boston and the Walker
  • 00:38:19
    Art Center in Minneapolis download
  • 00:38:22
    Bloomberg connects and you'll see that
  • 00:38:23
    the guide to the Walker Art Center has
  • 00:38:25
    information on the displays of its
  • 00:38:26
    permanent colle ction in the museum and
  • 00:38:28
    in the Minneapolis Sculpture Park it
  • 00:38:30
    also has an in-depth feature on the
  • 00:38:32
    Walker's current exhibition Keith
  • 00:38:34
    Herring artist for everybody with audio
  • 00:38:36
    content in which artists respond with
  • 00:38:38
    unique insight to key works in the
  • 00:38:40
    exhibition to explore digital guides to
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    all the partnering institutions download
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    the app today it's available from the
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    App Store and Google Play and you can
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    keep up to date by following Bloomberg
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    connects on Facebook and
  • 00:38:56
    Instagram what do you have pinned to the
  • 00:38:58
    studio wall the funny thing is because I
  • 00:39:01
    am so much in this whole world of
  • 00:39:03
    looking through images on the computer
  • 00:39:05
    Tumblr and all that stuff and of course
  • 00:39:07
    I'm not on social media at all so I do
  • 00:39:10
    what all those spies do I drag the
  • 00:39:13
    images on my desktop and then I used to
  • 00:39:16
    just put them into folders that have
  • 00:39:18
    monthly dates and basically forget them
  • 00:39:20
    and never look at them again and then
  • 00:39:22
    during the pandemic when I was working
  • 00:39:24
    on the BTY Chelly remake for time of it
  • 00:39:28
    I started to actually print out every
  • 00:39:30
    single image that I dragged and wrote on
  • 00:39:33
    it what it exactly was and dat stamped
  • 00:39:35
    it and I have done that ever since so
  • 00:39:38
    I'm actually pinning those things on the
  • 00:39:40
    walls while I'm printing them out and
  • 00:39:43
    they become a slow sort of uh reference
  • 00:39:46
    to you know like a mood I'm creating and
  • 00:39:49
    all the synchronicities that play out in
  • 00:39:52
    that display and then there are some
  • 00:39:54
    images that I print out over and over
  • 00:39:56
    again I see there are certain boys
  • 00:39:58
    drawings that are just really important
  • 00:40:01
    and I think the most beautiful thing on
  • 00:40:03
    earth right there are two postcards
  • 00:40:05
    actually that travel from Studio to
  • 00:40:07
    studio and that's probably the question
  • 00:40:08
    you asked one is this weird Bona cat
  • 00:40:12
    from the M do this white cat that's oh I
  • 00:40:15
    know it it's wonderful I even painted a
  • 00:40:17
    little frame around it I just love it so
  • 00:40:19
    much it has it's so funny and has all
  • 00:40:21
    the tenderness in the world and all the
  • 00:40:23
    weirdness and it's such good painting I
  • 00:40:26
    mean Bon and vya are so important to me
  • 00:40:28
    too I love them so much yeah you've said
  • 00:40:31
    that you create a mood machine in your
  • 00:40:33
    studio when you build a new body of work
  • 00:40:36
    and it's not just about images but it's
  • 00:40:38
    about objects that you have around you
  • 00:40:40
    in other words the entire Studio setup
  • 00:40:42
    is somehow refreshed as you turn to each
  • 00:40:44
    new body of work and it's really funny
  • 00:40:46
    like uh now I just came back to mafa in
  • 00:40:49
    my studio here and I was looking at and
  • 00:40:51
    I thought why are those two dried out
  • 00:40:54
    totes on my table and of course they had
  • 00:40:57
    to do with the apocalypse and the Toads
  • 00:41:01
    that come out of the mouth of the and
  • 00:41:03
    and fall from the sky and all that stuff
  • 00:41:06
    and just because I wanted to have this
  • 00:41:07
    feeling of those toads I bought some
  • 00:41:10
    actual toads on uh
  • 00:41:14
    eBay but of course I'm also completely
  • 00:41:16
    forgetting those things and suddenly
  • 00:41:18
    it's like wait why is there this little
  • 00:41:21
    plastic figurine of a lamp with seven
  • 00:41:24
    horns and seven eyes
  • 00:41:29
    so I do have those fetish objects and I
  • 00:41:31
    I do create those surroundings that are
  • 00:41:34
    just doing
  • 00:41:35
    something which museum or Gallery do you
  • 00:41:37
    visit most frequently well it's probably
  • 00:41:39
    MAA the met the drawing Center the
  • 00:41:42
    museums in New York and it's because
  • 00:41:45
    traveling is so tedious in New York I I
  • 00:41:47
    usually make one art day where I go and
  • 00:41:50
    see all the shows that I want to see
  • 00:41:52
    it's quite rarely actually that I just
  • 00:41:54
    go into the museum it's just the
  • 00:41:56
    logistics of living in New York with
  • 00:41:58
    having a a studio in Brooklyn and the
  • 00:42:00
    whole commute thing and all this it just
  • 00:42:03
    doesn't happen that much right so in
  • 00:42:05
    other words you're seeing new things to
  • 00:42:07
    fill your memory bank if you like of
  • 00:42:09
    images exactly and when I'm in the met I
  • 00:42:11
    will always go and look at the Mane the
  • 00:42:14
    take of the crucifix painting because
  • 00:42:16
    it's my favorite painting and stuff like
  • 00:42:18
    that you know like they're my favorites
  • 00:42:20
    that I will just say hello to but uh I
  • 00:42:23
    rarely just venture
  • 00:42:25
    out which cultural experience changed
  • 00:42:27
    the way you see the world I think again
  • 00:42:31
    it is not one thing but it is when I was
  • 00:42:34
    17 that was basically the time for
  • 00:42:36
    example the first time I saw a fasbinder
  • 00:42:38
    movie like mind blown the first time I
  • 00:42:40
    saw pasolini movie mind blown the first
  • 00:42:44
    time it was a great time for Cinema so I
  • 00:42:46
    think that played a big role in my
  • 00:42:48
    changing inside the culture but I was
  • 00:42:52
    also lucky to have very very good art
  • 00:42:54
    teachers two different ones one who was
  • 00:42:56
    very contemporary and was talking about
  • 00:42:58
    boys and what it means and the art as a
  • 00:43:00
    social project and all that stuff and
  • 00:43:03
    another one older one who was very much
  • 00:43:05
    into just slideshows of classical things
  • 00:43:09
    and he let half the class sleep and the
  • 00:43:13
    four people that are excited being
  • 00:43:15
    excited and so at the end of the year
  • 00:43:19
    once we went to Florence all together
  • 00:43:20
    and I remember him basically breaking
  • 00:43:23
    out in tears in front of the
  • 00:43:24
    Annunciation of uh Simona selli in theit
  • 00:43:29
    and we were all kind of embarrassed but
  • 00:43:31
    it stuck with me so that was all early
  • 00:43:34
    things that fed into being an artist but
  • 00:43:37
    I also I was so arrogant I I was always
  • 00:43:41
    just so sure that I am an artist and
  • 00:43:44
    already as a child I was so sure that I
  • 00:43:47
    was an artist and that I was a painter
  • 00:43:49
    even though I wasn't painting and wasn't
  • 00:43:51
    even want to paint so it it's really
  • 00:43:55
    it's strange do you think that
  • 00:43:57
    conviction comes from that experience
  • 00:44:00
    you described with the vs of just having
  • 00:44:02
    to absorb that work and and wanting it
  • 00:44:04
    to be part of you and therefore the idea
  • 00:44:07
    of being an artist and wanting
  • 00:44:09
    desperately to be an artist comes from
  • 00:44:11
    something like that I actually think
  • 00:44:13
    we're all born as artists but I do think
  • 00:44:17
    some more than others if you look at a
  • 00:44:20
    lot of artists background there will be
  • 00:44:22
    the one person who almost was an artist
  • 00:44:25
    you like the mother or the father or the
  • 00:44:26
    grand father there will be the one
  • 00:44:28
    creative person that was married to
  • 00:44:32
    being visually dependent on having art
  • 00:44:36
    around themselves or there will be this
  • 00:44:38
    weird Outsider who was doing things
  • 00:44:40
    differently I think there is a
  • 00:44:42
    staggering of from both sides of almost
  • 00:44:46
    artists before there is somebody who has
  • 00:44:49
    this urgency is born with this urgency
  • 00:44:52
    to have to do it and I don't know if
  • 00:44:55
    that always plays out I get breaks my
  • 00:44:57
    heart to think about all the women in
  • 00:44:59
    history who were born like that and
  • 00:45:01
    couldn't and you like it makes me angry
  • 00:45:03
    to think about all the artworks that we
  • 00:45:06
    don't have because it was not possible
  • 00:45:09
    for women to have the same chances and
  • 00:45:13
    they would have to be so incredibly
  • 00:45:15
    energetic and determined to work against
  • 00:45:19
    the society there comes through
  • 00:45:20
    obviously there were a lot of them who
  • 00:45:22
    did it but there were so many of them
  • 00:45:24
    that could have and couldn't that's a
  • 00:45:27
    very good point which writers or poets
  • 00:45:30
    do you return to well if I do this thing
  • 00:45:33
    you're like where you go to the
  • 00:45:34
    Bookshelf and you just grab the one book
  • 00:45:36
    where you just know it's going to have
  • 00:45:38
    the killer sentence that is the sentence
  • 00:45:40
    of the day the way people used to do it
  • 00:45:42
    with the Bible I think for me it's
  • 00:45:45
    mostly Emily Dickinson like it's always
  • 00:45:47
    a perfect sentence but also Paul Valerie
  • 00:45:51
    notebooks I actually have the faximile
  • 00:45:54
    of all his notebooks which is like 20
  • 00:45:57
    seven giant volumes I got those on eBay
  • 00:46:00
    I love
  • 00:46:01
    eBay and he had all those funny drawings
  • 00:46:03
    in it which I'm doing too I'm copying
  • 00:46:06
    half of what I read into notebooks and
  • 00:46:09
    make a thousand drawings but also
  • 00:46:12
    strangely enough I just always come back
  • 00:46:15
    to Peter hka the German language in it
  • 00:46:17
    is so clear and the way that he is so
  • 00:46:20
    completely devoted to describing he is
  • 00:46:24
    one of the writers who makes me see and
  • 00:46:27
    feel at the same time there is of course
  • 00:46:29
    a certain pesos in it but that's me
  • 00:46:33
    right yeah going back to Emily Dickinson
  • 00:46:36
    is it a portrait of her in the Poetry
  • 00:46:39
    machine paintings it is simple as a
  • 00:46:41
    representation of Emily Dickinson or is
  • 00:46:43
    she a more emblematic figure to a
  • 00:46:45
    certain degree it is emblematic as more
  • 00:46:48
    in this spinster type you like it could
  • 00:46:51
    be Virginia wolf it could be Emily
  • 00:46:52
    Dickinson it could be that type of woman
  • 00:46:55
    at the time who was like stubbornly
  • 00:46:58
    insisting on their work and they were
  • 00:47:01
    always defined as not the female entity
  • 00:47:05
    that the society needed you know like
  • 00:47:07
    they were taking themselves out of the
  • 00:47:09
    equation and they were often referred to
  • 00:47:12
    as spinsters you're like putting all the
  • 00:47:15
    energy into the work and yeah you can
  • 00:47:17
    feel that absolutely especially when you
  • 00:47:19
    read biographical information about the
  • 00:47:21
    way that people saw Emily Dickinson you
  • 00:47:24
    know there she was making this
  • 00:47:25
    extraordinary important the work that
  • 00:47:27
    nobody really knew about and of course
  • 00:47:29
    the whole society around her is baffled
  • 00:47:31
    by this it's such an extraordinary
  • 00:47:33
    Endeavor that isn't it and again I think
  • 00:47:35
    there probably were so many more women
  • 00:47:38
    who were doing fantastic poetry and
  • 00:47:40
    fantastic work and you're like that just
  • 00:47:43
    uh got carelessly thrown out at some
  • 00:47:45
    point by it's sheer luck that we have
  • 00:47:48
    all that stuff that it did get preserved
  • 00:47:51
    and you say that poetry often is in the
  • 00:47:53
    backgrounds of the paintings I know that
  • 00:47:55
    in certain paintings you'll write
  • 00:47:57
    something on the canvas it we won't see
  • 00:47:58
    it in the final version but there will
  • 00:48:00
    often be quotes like your quote of the
  • 00:48:01
    day if you like will be underneath the
  • 00:48:03
    surface is that right not
  • 00:48:06
    entirely let's say it
  • 00:48:09
    it it has happened it's more in the
  • 00:48:12
    works on paper actually because there's
  • 00:48:13
    a in between thing between the poetry
  • 00:48:16
    and the paintings that plays out a
  • 00:48:18
    little bit more direct right and you
  • 00:48:20
    have these motto paintings don't you and
  • 00:48:22
    they're sort of around you as part of
  • 00:48:24
    that mood machine that we were talking
  • 00:48:25
    about yes and and right now coming back
  • 00:48:27
    to mafa I'm just thinking what's going
  • 00:48:29
    to be my motto what's going to be my
  • 00:48:31
    motto and then that's what I love about
  • 00:48:34
    synchronicity and why I love it so much
  • 00:48:36
    is there will it will suddenly be there
  • 00:48:39
    and it will be so perfect and it will
  • 00:48:41
    trigger the whole thing but that maybe
  • 00:48:44
    also because like I spent the last two
  • 00:48:47
    days now being here watching animals and
  • 00:48:49
    I realize that is a theme that I go back
  • 00:48:52
    to over and over again but uh putting
  • 00:48:54
    animals into paintings is a little bit
  • 00:48:56
    like putting writing into paintings it's
  • 00:48:59
    such an entity that's so heavy as a
  • 00:49:02
    Content that I have to find a way of
  • 00:49:04
    making it a shape like the rabbit that
  • 00:49:07
    is very often now in the paintings
  • 00:49:09
    actually did turn into a shape that I
  • 00:49:11
    can use but that's not so easy to pull
  • 00:49:14
    off with other animals I'm sure we'll
  • 00:49:18
    see
  • 00:49:22
    [Music]
  • 00:49:33
    what music or other audio do you listen
  • 00:49:34
    to while you're working I listen to
  • 00:49:39
    audiobooks a lot right now I'm listening
  • 00:49:41
    to the Memoirs of uh Vera herok which
  • 00:49:44
    are really great uh another person that
  • 00:49:48
    I very much admire just the wholeness of
  • 00:49:51
    his vision and the stubborn urgency that
  • 00:49:54
    he just pulls it through is really
  • 00:49:57
    fantastic in terms of music I mean there
  • 00:49:59
    were musical references in your titles
  • 00:50:01
    all the time there's a painting called
  • 00:50:02
    Russian Jazz for instance there's a
  • 00:50:05
    painting called guitar gangster is that
  • 00:50:07
    just word play is that just you finding
  • 00:50:09
    words or for instance will there be
  • 00:50:11
    things that you have in the studio
  • 00:50:12
    musically that will be triggering some
  • 00:50:15
    of the title some of the thoughts in the
  • 00:50:17
    work yes but it's not actually a direct
  • 00:50:21
    reflection the title Russian Jazz for
  • 00:50:23
    example gave me more like a weird
  • 00:50:26
    feeling about post-war atmosphere in
  • 00:50:29
    Russia that has also an aesthetic value
  • 00:50:32
    so that was the reason for the title it
  • 00:50:34
    was not that I was actually listening to
  • 00:50:36
    Russian Jazz so it's in a way you kind
  • 00:50:38
    of encapsulating your feeling yes
  • 00:50:41
    through words in that sense yes I wanted
  • 00:50:43
    to also ask about a very specific
  • 00:50:44
    reference that I read about which is in
  • 00:50:46
    the painting which is called lady moth
  • 00:50:48
    and I believe that's that relates to the
  • 00:50:50
    fact that your mother had died around
  • 00:50:52
    that time and her name was Marianne
  • 00:50:55
    adelene and and then there's this
  • 00:50:57
    Richard Clayderman reference in
  • 00:50:59
    particularly his ballad for adelene and
  • 00:51:02
    tell me about that how did that arrive
  • 00:51:04
    in the work well actually strangely
  • 00:51:07
    enough the motif of the The Moth
  • 00:51:10
    especially that weird moth that has a
  • 00:51:12
    death skull on its back which is such an
  • 00:51:14
    iconic image my mother was obsessed with
  • 00:51:18
    something called La Longo she was French
  • 00:51:21
    and uh she was always looking for the
  • 00:51:23
    words that are hidden in words and of
  • 00:51:26
    course the word moth is in mother so it
  • 00:51:30
    was a double reference to her and the
  • 00:51:33
    balad for adene is a I think we just had
  • 00:51:36
    it at the house because of the name and
  • 00:51:39
    it was Richard Clay and it was total
  • 00:51:41
    kitch of course but it's also extremely
  • 00:51:44
    seductive and extremely really goes
  • 00:51:46
    under your skin and you can't get it out
  • 00:51:48
    of your head forever once you hear it it
  • 00:51:51
    was a weird Kit Anem sometimes it's also
  • 00:51:55
    the surface is just what it is sometimes
  • 00:51:58
    thoughts are also really as Alva Gardner
  • 00:52:01
    said deep inside I'm very superficial I
  • 00:52:04
    always like that
  • 00:52:05
    quote right but I think also that's an
  • 00:52:08
    important point about your work is that
  • 00:52:11
    because it is effectively abstract even
  • 00:52:14
    though it has motifs that are
  • 00:52:15
    recognizable it doesn't mean that it
  • 00:52:17
    doesn't involve personal memory or
  • 00:52:19
    autobiography or whatever that's all
  • 00:52:21
    still bound up in the language yes but
  • 00:52:24
    it also comes after the fact often it's
  • 00:52:27
    a mix in the end the paintings need to
  • 00:52:29
    work visually there are no hidden
  • 00:52:31
    messages that are important the messages
  • 00:52:33
    that are in there are for my own sake
  • 00:52:36
    and they are references to
  • 00:52:38
    synchronicities and the way that the
  • 00:52:40
    world does bind together in the weirdest
  • 00:52:44
    way and uh that gets reflected in the
  • 00:52:47
    paintings that they are bound together
  • 00:52:49
    in strange ways as well but it's not
  • 00:52:51
    more than that what other media
  • 00:52:53
    influence your work of course the
  • 00:52:55
    internet
  • 00:52:57
    a big friend and I also wanted to talk
  • 00:52:59
    about film here because you've already
  • 00:53:01
    mentioned fast bender and Pelini earlier
  • 00:53:03
    on but I know that Rober Bron was a
  • 00:53:05
    useful filmmaker there's a very
  • 00:53:07
    interesting point that you made that you
  • 00:53:08
    wanted the paint in the work IIT or IG
  • 00:53:12
    to use the paint rather as he used the
  • 00:53:15
    amateur actors in his
  • 00:53:17
    films and I thought that was a really
  • 00:53:19
    intriguing reference in a way you wanted
  • 00:53:21
    to cut away the acting you somehow
  • 00:53:23
    wanted it to have a kind of Truth in
  • 00:53:25
    that language that you were using the
  • 00:53:27
    paint and I think that was a longing for
  • 00:53:32
    that tenderness that comes with
  • 00:53:34
    respecting and seeing what is instead of
  • 00:53:37
    make belief where your whole body kind
  • 00:53:40
    of accepts something a similar way of
  • 00:53:44
    seeing it was I was obsessed for a while
  • 00:53:46
    with again the studio surrounding buying
  • 00:53:49
    figurines that had been painted in a way
  • 00:53:52
    that was detached from the desire to
  • 00:53:56
    make something but that was just a
  • 00:53:58
    fabricated way of putting the paint on
  • 00:54:00
    it always looks better than the
  • 00:54:02
    intentional stuff it's actually the
  • 00:54:04
    opposite of tenderness but it it has
  • 00:54:06
    something to do with that space that
  • 00:54:08
    buffer zone that allows for something to
  • 00:54:11
    be itself but of course Bron is an
  • 00:54:14
    absolutely disciplined formalist and I'm
  • 00:54:18
    a formalist as well but I am way more of
  • 00:54:23
    course going through a trial and error J
  • 00:54:26
    position frenzy which is the opposite of
  • 00:54:30
    what he's doing you're like he has a
  • 00:54:31
    very BR didn't practice hacken
  • 00:54:34
    schlagen exactly thank
  • 00:54:40
    you is there a particular discipline in
  • 00:54:44
    your daily working life that you see as
  • 00:54:45
    an essential ritual I think Solitude is
  • 00:54:48
    just very important it limits me in a
  • 00:54:51
    certain way because I don't have a
  • 00:54:52
    thousand assistants next to me that I
  • 00:54:54
    can say print this out and do that and
  • 00:54:56
    also reflect things in or even work for
  • 00:55:00
    because you're like I don't have this
  • 00:55:02
    direct audience but I the older I get
  • 00:55:05
    the more this interior space needs to be
  • 00:55:09
    widened and furnished and it's becoming
  • 00:55:12
    more and more important and there are
  • 00:55:15
    rituals that make sure that this is U
  • 00:55:18
    possible I guess it's not really ritual
  • 00:55:21
    but it's it's a desire for a certain way
  • 00:55:24
    of being if you could live with just one
  • 00:55:27
    work of art what would it be it would be
  • 00:55:30
    a WS painting a blue
  • 00:55:32
    [Laughter]
  • 00:55:35
    Phantom I thought you might say that any
  • 00:55:38
    other WS painting as well I just saw
  • 00:55:39
    another one it's just I don't know what
  • 00:55:41
    it is but they just have everything for
  • 00:55:43
    me I don't know why and lastly what is
  • 00:55:47
    art for you know what we were talking at
  • 00:55:49
    the very beginning about that art
  • 00:55:51
    triggers creativity I think to say what
  • 00:55:54
    is art for if you say what is art it is
  • 00:55:57
    the expression of creativity and I think
  • 00:56:00
    that we are all would be completely
  • 00:56:02
    without it you like it's just and
  • 00:56:05
    not possible without it you're like I
  • 00:56:06
    think human beings have always been
  • 00:56:08
    creative that's who why we are who we
  • 00:56:11
    are in our all idiosyncratic ways and I
  • 00:56:15
    think the way that artists are creative
  • 00:56:17
    and the artwork that comes out of it
  • 00:56:19
    should be something that triggers the
  • 00:56:21
    creativity in the audience to go into
  • 00:56:25
    this Loop where something gets seen
  • 00:56:28
    differently or done differently or even
  • 00:56:31
    triggered something that has already
  • 00:56:33
    been there but gets let loose through it
  • 00:56:36
    so I think it's bound in this Loop of
  • 00:56:39
    necessity and urgency we just need
  • 00:56:46
    it well Charlene thank you so much it
  • 00:56:49
    was my pleasure entirely
  • 00:56:57
    [Music]
  • 00:57:00
    to see images of works by Charlene and
  • 00:57:01
    Von Hile and to get news of forthcoming
  • 00:57:03
    shows visit her Gallery pel's website
  • 00:57:06
    that's petzl.com
  • 00:57:10
    and that's it for this episode please
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    to Daniela Hathaway A big thank you to
  • 00:57:40
    Charlene Von H thank you for listening
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Etiquetas
  • Charlene Von Hil
  • painting
  • artistic influences
  • creative process
  • emotional engagement
  • solitude
  • art and creativity
  • experimental art
  • abstract art
  • art history