00:00:00
when everything's included in the grade
00:00:01
it adds to stress and it creates places
00:00:03
where students can't relax this
00:00:06
conversation is so interesting because
00:00:07
we talk about the history of grading and
00:00:10
how a lot of the practices that are
00:00:11
happening in our schools haven't really
00:00:13
changed in the last 100 years welcome to
00:00:15
toddle School leaders project on today's
00:00:17
episode of the podcast I welcome Joe
00:00:19
Feldman who literally wrote the book
00:00:21
unequitable grading Joe talks about the
00:00:23
three pillars of Equitable grading and
00:00:25
we dig into what the idea of the future
00:00:27
of grading and assessment might look
00:00:29
like in schools you're not going to want
00:00:31
to miss a single second so let's jump
00:00:33
right into this conversation Joe felin
00:00:35
I'm so excited to have you here on the
00:00:36
school leaders project thanks so much
00:00:38
for joining us oh thanks for the
00:00:39
invitation so I'd love for you to set
00:00:41
the stage a little bit for our audience
00:00:43
who are you tell us about your book tell
00:00:45
us about the work that you're most
00:00:46
passionate about yeah so um I'm Joe I'm
00:00:49
a former high school English and
00:00:50
American history teacher uh I was a
00:00:52
English department chair assistant
00:00:54
principal principal of a couple
00:00:55
different high schools um I worked in
00:00:57
the central office in uh Northern
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California school district as well as in
00:01:01
New York City and after I finished those
00:01:05
jobs I wanted to try something different
00:01:07
so I started researching an aspect of my
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work that had just nagged at me uh which
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was grading I didn't feel like I really
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understood it as a teacher um as an
00:01:18
administrator at the site level I saw
00:01:21
teachers doing lots of different things
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um and just couldn't really figure out
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why they were doing different things and
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how to help them uh as a district
00:01:29
administ administrator I saw it even on
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a more widespread basis and and the more
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people I spoke with the more people told
00:01:35
me that I wasn't crazy that this is that
00:01:37
grading was a really um kind of Tangled
00:01:41
knot kind of a subject uh and so I
00:01:44
started researching grading and its
00:01:46
history in this country and found that
00:01:48
it's really just a fascinating history
00:01:50
and in many ways we're continuing to use
00:01:52
the same grading practices as a hundred
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years ago and so I looked at what is the
00:01:57
current understanding of grading and Rel
00:02:00
fields of um adolescent development and
00:02:03
motivation Theory and culturally
00:02:06
sustaining pedagogy and tried to um look
00:02:09
at what would be ways to improve the
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ways that we grade uh and started
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partnering with a couple schools and
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districts um and did that for about four
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years and then wrote the book um grading
00:02:23
for Equity based on what I had learned
00:02:26
from that work in schools and districts
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and in classrooms love that I think you
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hit the nail on the head that it's
00:02:32
something we all clearly do in schools
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but it feels almost taboo or it feels so
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valuated or uncomfortable sometimes to
00:02:38
talk about why do you think that is like
00:02:40
why is it so hard to talk about grading
00:02:43
well I think that um there's this weird
00:02:46
uh irony that's going on where um
00:02:50
teachers feel like with with all the
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mandates placed on them and all the
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expectations and roles they have to play
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um that grading is one of their last
00:02:59
Island of autonomy it's where they can
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bring their full professional judgment
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and identity to this aspect of their
00:03:05
practice and they are in the best
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position to decide where H how to report
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what students know and can do um and so
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I think that's a very protected area and
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to start opening up that conversation oh
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and it's very private you know I think
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every teacher feels like it's Unique to
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them and they've spent the work to do it
00:03:26
and you know one of the ironies is that
00:03:28
they've had no training in how to do
00:03:30
this this really important part of their
00:03:32
work um it's not in graduate programs or
00:03:34
anything like that so there's no
00:03:37
practice that we have as Educators with
00:03:39
talking about it with each other there's
00:03:41
no common language there's no common
00:03:43
research base um there's there's no real
00:03:46
um support to talk about it and when an
00:03:48
administrator comes and talks to it or
00:03:50
tries to lead a conversation there's
00:03:52
lots of power dynamics that can be felt
00:03:55
um you know around like a protection of
00:03:58
autonomy or um you know wanting to make
00:04:01
sure that my authority isn't compromised
00:04:04
and my judgment isn't questioned and and
00:04:07
it and I think grading also gets into
00:04:09
aspects of teacher identity you know who
00:04:11
am I in a classroom and what is my
00:04:13
relationship and role you know with my
00:04:16
students and so I think it's just kind
00:04:18
of fraught unfortunately with a lot of
00:04:21
Deep Emotions and and d and challenges
00:04:25
and so what I wanted to do is help
00:04:26
normalize conversations about grading
00:04:28
it's we should should be talking about
00:04:30
it as much as we talk about assessment
00:04:32
or curriculum design or you know all the
00:04:35
other aspects of our classroom and we
00:04:37
should be doing it with each other might
00:04:39
you clarify that the difference between
00:04:41
assessing and Grading yeah so um grading
00:04:45
as I think about it is the formal
00:04:48
reporting of where students are in their
00:04:51
learning progression toward meeting
00:04:53
certain course outcomes um okay and you
00:04:57
know that can be done when I say formal
00:04:59
know it doesn't have to be like the
00:05:01
transcript it could be you know saying
00:05:03
to students you know this is where you
00:05:05
are right now um and kind of getting
00:05:07
into more of a feedback sort of area uh
00:05:10
whereas assessing is really the the
00:05:13
method by which you ascertain where
00:05:16
students are in their learning question
00:05:17
because I think people get confused and
00:05:20
start you know using words in lots of
00:05:22
different ways and so and and I don't
00:05:23
even think grading is necessarily like
00:05:25
the a through f scale it could be any
00:05:27
way that you formally report students
00:05:30
are in they're learning and does it have
00:05:31
to accompany like assigning a value so
00:05:33
it doesn't have to be an ABC or D but
00:05:35
there's some Mastery or failure or is
00:05:38
there some like that's the the act of
00:05:40
grading is assigning it some kind of a
00:05:42
value yeah I think um it's essentially
00:05:46
naming where the student is in their
00:05:48
learning progression you know if I'm
00:05:50
trying to be able to you know make 10
00:05:54
free throws in a row how many have I
00:05:56
made so far where you know what's my
00:05:59
biggest sort of Gap in doing it the the
00:06:02
number that I need to make or you know
00:06:03
if I'm trying to you know demonstrate
00:06:05
that I understand the Pythagorean
00:06:06
theorem where am I in my learning
00:06:09
progression the school leaders project
00:06:11
is brought to you by toddle you're
00:06:12
all-in-one teaching and learning
00:06:13
platform made for teachers and by
00:06:15
teachers if you're interested in more
00:06:17
Equitable grading and switching towards
00:06:19
more competency or portfolio based style
00:06:22
grading todal really supports you
00:06:24
because it breaks down your curriculum
00:06:26
and it helps us to tell the learning
00:06:28
story to see the picture of what's
00:06:30
happening in our grade books and what's
00:06:31
really happening in our classrooms so if
00:06:34
you want to learn more about toddle and
00:06:35
how it can support your grading practice
00:06:37
find out at total app.com that makes a
00:06:40
lot of sense and I think that also hits
00:06:41
a nail in the head of of a potential
00:06:44
frustration in class rooms is that we
00:06:46
often don't have a clear Benchmark of
00:06:48
what success looks like and what those
00:06:50
tiers of progression of success looks
00:06:52
like so somebody says justify why this
00:06:55
is a b or a c or whatever scale you're
00:06:58
using and there's those Flags go up well
00:07:00
I just know because there's not that
00:07:02
shared like you said shared language
00:07:04
shared culture shared vernacular you
00:07:07
touched a little bit earlier on kind of
00:07:09
how the history of grading has led to a
00:07:11
lot of the the cultural aspects of
00:07:14
grading that we see now might you give
00:07:16
us a little bit of kind of like the The
00:07:17
Flash history of what we should know
00:07:19
about where grading comes from yeah I
00:07:21
mean the the ways that we grade now are
00:07:24
really almost identical to how we graded
00:07:27
a 100 years ago so this is this type of
00:07:29
grading um and when I say this type you
00:07:31
know the idea that you have a through f
00:07:35
um that you're using points to quantify
00:07:39
those ideas was really um from the
00:07:41
Industrial Revolution uh during the
00:07:43
Industrial Revolution we were um really
00:07:46
preoccupied with becoming a more
00:07:48
efficient country um we were trying to
00:07:51
compete with Europe and so we needed to
00:07:54
figure out how we were going to cultur
00:07:56
assimilate you know all these folks from
00:07:58
rural areas and from and the people from
00:08:01
overseas to be ready to work in
00:08:03
factories and so we needed to sort them
00:08:06
um and the letter system the ABCD F was
00:08:09
in large part so that we could put
00:08:12
students into academic tracks because we
00:08:14
didn't want to waste resources on Lower
00:08:16
tracks right so we were trying to get
00:08:18
efficient with who are going to be the
00:08:20
bosses and who are going to be the
00:08:21
workers and the abcdf enabled us to
00:08:24
easily label students so that we knew
00:08:28
what trajectory they were going to be on
00:08:30
um we also yeah we were also really
00:08:34
fascinated it's just so deterministic
00:08:36
you know like this is who you are and
00:08:38
this is who you will become absolutely
00:08:40
absolutely and we were also really um
00:08:43
interested in as I was saying a curating
00:08:45
and assimilating all the folks from
00:08:47
overseas that were um immigrating to the
00:08:49
country and and um you know just trying
00:08:52
to sort of establish who would be good
00:08:54
workers and so we used um behaviorism to
00:08:58
really affect effect behavior of
00:09:00
students right behaviorism is the idea
00:09:02
that you can most effectively motivate
00:09:05
through positive and negative extrinsic
00:09:07
reinforcement right rats in a cage with
00:09:09
the pellet or the electricity on the on
00:09:11
the cage and so we adopted a lot of
00:09:14
those practices in the ways that we
00:09:16
thought about um students so the whole
00:09:19
point system managing them using points
00:09:21
as an incentive strategy was all really
00:09:25
from a hundred years ago and because
00:09:28
we've teachers have never had access to
00:09:29
the research and they've never really
00:09:32
been taught how to grade most of us as
00:09:35
Educators just replicate how we were
00:09:37
graded and we just continue to use the
00:09:39
same strategies the same techniques even
00:09:43
though there's no research to support it
00:09:45
in fact the research all points against
00:09:46
what most teachers do something that
00:09:48
comes to my mind here and this is a a
00:09:50
theme or a trend that I feel across
00:09:53
educational movements like whether it's
00:09:54
No Child Left Behind or this industrial
00:09:57
revolution of education is that like
00:10:00
it came from a goodish place of
00:10:03
intention the level the goal was to you
00:10:05
know try to help people assimilate and
00:10:07
and to to prepare them for what was
00:10:10
success at that time and I think what we
00:10:12
need to remember as teachers is that
00:10:14
just because it was created that time
00:10:15
with good intentions doesn't mean that
00:10:17
those intentions serve us now and like
00:10:20
those are the questions we need to be
00:10:21
asking is is what is the function what
00:10:23
is the endgame now and are my practices
00:10:25
still in alignment with
00:10:27
that yeah I I'm I'm a little less
00:10:30
generous than you I'm a little more
00:10:32
equiv um you know I think we were you
00:10:36
know you had folks like Dewey and folks
00:10:38
who were really thinking about like how
00:10:40
can we really like build an educated
00:10:41
citizenship and then we had other folks
00:10:43
who were like we need workers we need
00:10:46
workers and we had other folks who were
00:10:48
like let's educate all kids and other
00:10:50
folks who were like nah we don't want to
00:10:52
educate all kids that's not really
00:10:54
important to us I think the biggest
00:10:56
thing is really to your point is that
00:10:58
things are different now like we have
00:10:59
different belief systems right we we
00:11:02
believe all kids can learn right and we
00:11:05
create standards that we believe just
00:11:08
about every kid can hit right and we
00:11:11
also believe that they should get to
00:11:12
decide what they want to do with their
00:11:13
lives right we don't want to sort of
00:11:15
lock them into a particular academic
00:11:17
track that they can never
00:11:20
escape and we also know that intrinsic
00:11:23
motivation is a much better motivator
00:11:25
extrinsic motivation is actually a
00:11:26
pretty bad motivator um yeah
00:11:30
so you know we've got to think about
00:11:32
what we want in our schools and what
00:11:34
what the research says about effective
00:11:35
teaching and learning and apply those to
00:11:38
every aspect of our practice including
00:11:40
grading I love that oh progress um might
00:11:46
you speak a little bit to the
00:11:47
traditional grading system and when you
00:11:49
see it happening in
00:11:50
schools what is the effect on not only
00:11:53
student performance but just kind of on
00:11:55
the culture of a school when we're using
00:11:58
those outdated practices
00:12:01
um well I mean it's one that probably
00:12:04
most of us are very familiar with
00:12:05
because we were in those schools so it's
00:12:08
where teachers use a lot of points
00:12:11
there's the points are the primary sort
00:12:13
of uh you know language of learning um
00:12:19
kids talk about points teachers talk
00:12:21
about points um you know I think that's
00:12:24
and and it can be really stressful for
00:12:27
students um at both ends of the sort of
00:12:31
ends of the success sort of trajectory
00:12:34
right the students who are you know
00:12:36
really super consumed with getting an a
00:12:39
all the time and they feel the pressure
00:12:41
and they um have oftentimes a fixed
00:12:43
mindset around who they are and what
00:12:46
mistakes might mean um and then students
00:12:48
at the other end who just generally
00:12:51
haven't been very successful in schools
00:12:53
and so they just keep seeing the same
00:12:55
thing at low points and they just can
00:12:57
never claw their way out
00:12:59
um out of a a zero to 100 scale that's
00:13:03
very demoralizing it is really
00:13:05
architecturally sort of built to
00:13:08
disproportionately punish students um so
00:13:11
there's a lot of stress and a lot of
00:13:13
talking about points um and I think that
00:13:17
there's a lot of ways in which um that
00:13:20
creates classrooms that are performance
00:13:22
spaces that you know if I go into a
00:13:24
class and I know that every day I will
00:13:27
get up to Five Points points based on
00:13:30
whether I have my materials or whether I
00:13:32
raise my hand or whether I come in on
00:13:34
time um and every discussion is included
00:13:39
in the grade and you know every T every
00:13:41
time there's classwork is included in
00:13:43
the grade when everything's included in
00:13:44
the grade it it adds to stress and it
00:13:46
creates places where students can't
00:13:48
relax and they can't have an off day
00:13:51
because everything counts um so I think
00:13:54
those are kind of two sort of cultural
00:13:57
ways and sort of atmospheric ways that
00:13:59
the ways that we we grade changes how
00:14:02
schools are in ways that we don't want
00:14:04
them to
00:14:05
be right because you extrapolate that
00:14:07
you think 10 years down the road and I
00:14:09
was one of those kids I was I loved the
00:14:11
tests and I loved you know being the top
00:14:14
performer but what does that do for your
00:14:16
sense of purpose and value
00:14:19
and identity when those things are no
00:14:21
longer there and and what does life look
00:14:23
like and how do you motivate it's we
00:14:25
leave our kids with this really big gap
00:14:28
of purpose I think when when we create
00:14:30
those kinds of
00:14:31
cultures and you know unfortunately kids
00:14:34
come into schools not talking like that
00:14:36
right when you go into kindergarten
00:14:37
classrooms first grade classrooms kids
00:14:39
are just into learning and they're they
00:14:41
make mistakes and everybody knows it and
00:14:43
they keep trying and um you know it's
00:14:46
not until really like third fourth grade
00:14:49
Upper Elementary where teachers start
00:14:51
talking about points and managing
00:14:54
Behavior through points and and that's
00:14:56
where it all starts um and I think think
00:14:59
one of the things teachers find when
00:15:00
they change how they grade to grade more
00:15:02
equitably is they find that students
00:15:04
actually haven't
00:15:06
forgotten what it means to be
00:15:08
intrinsically motivated to learn and to
00:15:10
be comfortable making mistakes and like
00:15:13
all the and to stop talking about points
00:15:15
all the time they they actually can
00:15:17
remember that and come back to that with
00:15:19
teachers help I like that might you talk
00:15:22
about some of those shifts I feel like I
00:15:24
kind of got ahead of us here of talking
00:15:25
about the culture of of both but could
00:15:28
you talk about some of the shifts that
00:15:29
lead us from this more traditional
00:15:31
approach towards a more Equitable
00:15:33
approach to
00:15:34
grading yeah so people are like well
00:15:37
what is this then you talked what is
00:15:39
it yeah um so Equitable grading is it
00:15:42
really has three pillars it's where
00:15:44
grades accurately describe where
00:15:47
students are in they're learning it
00:15:49
they're bias resistant so grading
00:15:51
counteracts some of the institutional
00:15:53
biases and prevents our own implicit
00:15:56
biases from infecting the grade
00:15:59
and then it's where grades are
00:16:01
motivational they build students
00:16:02
intrinsic motivation and their sense of
00:16:05
efficacy and self-regulation skills so
00:16:08
there's a whole lot in those three
00:16:10
pillars um you know I think one kind of
00:16:15
I'll sort of take a them one at a time a
00:16:17
little bit so around accuracy you know
00:16:19
there's I mentioned the 0o to 100 scale
00:16:22
and it's really helping us as teachers
00:16:25
better understand why the the
00:16:28
architecture of that that scale makes it
00:16:29
so mathematically unsound um to use um
00:16:33
and what are alternatives to using that
00:16:35
I'm not I don't I'm not you know saying
00:16:38
we shouldn't use numbers to describe
00:16:39
where students are or we shouldn't you
00:16:41
know have ways of um defining it in
00:16:44
gradations but there's a lot of problems
00:16:46
with the 0o to 100 scale um and we can
00:16:49
make that better using zero to four or
00:16:52
1: four um for example then there's the
00:16:55
bias resistance so in many ways
00:16:57
traditional grading
00:16:59
um
00:17:01
incorporates um things outside of
00:17:03
students's control into the grade these
00:17:05
are sort of the institutional biases so
00:17:08
you know students whose um families are
00:17:10
of lower income um you know they're less
00:17:13
likely to be able to do some of the
00:17:16
things that are traditionally included
00:17:17
in grading like extra credit assignment
00:17:20
like you know you go to the movie based
00:17:22
on the book or you you know bring in
00:17:25
cupcakes for the potluck we have at the
00:17:27
end of The Learning
00:17:29
or you know things like that that
00:17:31
require resources you know time money
00:17:34
supervision something like that um so
00:17:36
it's making sure those things aren't
00:17:38
included in the grade um as well as
00:17:41
implicit biases you know a lot of times
00:17:43
teachers will um ask students to behave
00:17:46
in certain ways whether it's you know
00:17:48
you need to sit quietly in your seat or
00:17:51
um you need to take notes um a
00:17:54
particular way um which really doesn't
00:17:57
and often times what a teacher is doing
00:17:59
is their um creates this they create an
00:18:02
archetype of what they look like when
00:18:04
they're learning effectively and compare
00:18:07
students to that and reward them if they
00:18:08
match and punish them if they don't
00:18:10
match even though there's a whole
00:18:12
universe of ways that people learn um
00:18:15
and and can be uh and then the final is
00:18:18
around motivation you know a lot of
00:18:20
times we do things in our grades that
00:18:22
demotivate students um and we can be
00:18:26
more motivational by for example um
00:18:29
looking at where students are in the end
00:18:31
of their learning rather than sort of
00:18:33
include every mistake they make along
00:18:35
the way because if you include when
00:18:37
students make mistakes and that in in
00:18:39
the grade um it's going to demotivate
00:18:41
them and instead if you said yeah make
00:18:43
mistakes those mistakes aren't going to
00:18:45
be included in the grade only how you
00:18:47
are at the end you keep students engaged
00:18:49
and motivated to keep learning and keep
00:18:51
taking risks in their learning so that
00:18:54
was like a super uh big overview you see
00:18:58
me here just like scribbling like a
00:19:00
crazy person I have so many questions
00:19:01
for
00:19:02
you well there is a whole book on this
00:19:04
there is a whole book okay
00:19:07
[Laughter]
00:19:10
Joe could you just dig a little bit more
00:19:12
into the zero to 100 because I this is
00:19:15
probably a fallacy of thinking on my
00:19:17
part but I guess when I hear 0er to 100
00:19:19
I think oh I can be more accurate
00:19:20
because kid is exactly a 78 versus a one
00:19:23
through four then I'm just jumping into
00:19:25
this you're just a three so how is it
00:19:27
more accurate to to move towards a
00:19:29
smaller
00:19:30
scale um okay so
00:19:34
I'm with
00:19:36
you you're not the first person to ask
00:19:39
let's first talk about interr
00:19:41
reliability I'm gonna get a little
00:19:43
statistical on you so when you have
00:19:47
multiple gradations right from zero to
00:19:50
100 and you ask and you ask two teachers
00:19:53
to look at a piece of student work the
00:19:55
more gradations you have the more likely
00:19:58
that those teach ERS will not agree on
00:20:00
where those those that student is right
00:20:03
because they have so many choices to
00:20:05
make in them um the fewer gradations the
00:20:08
more likely that teachers will match on
00:20:10
those right it's like if I asked people
00:20:12
to um estimate the width of the room and
00:20:15
I told them to do it in inches they're
00:20:18
going to be a lot more variance in their
00:20:20
answers than if I say measure it in
00:20:21
yards estimated in yards right they'll
00:20:24
be a lot more likely to be so there's a
00:20:27
value in having teachers having a
00:20:30
student's work be get the same grade
00:20:33
regardless of which teacher is looking
00:20:35
at it and the fewer gradations the more
00:20:38
likely you will have that consistency so
00:20:40
there's a real value in having fewer
00:20:41
rather than
00:20:43
more the so it's
00:20:46
random yeah I mean it's not random from
00:20:49
the teachers point of view right they're
00:20:50
trying to be super precise right but the
00:20:53
problem is that they're going to be much
00:20:54
more likely to be different from each
00:20:56
other which is much more confusing than
00:20:58
to the
00:21:00
student that's where the bias comes in
00:21:02
like that implicit of like oh well like
00:21:04
I was actually looking to see that your
00:21:05
handwriting was neat and that's what
00:21:07
pushed you to a 72 instead of a 79 and
00:21:09
the other teacher's like I don't care
00:21:10
about
00:21:11
handwriting yeah and that could have I
00:21:14
mean and that's also got to be figured
00:21:16
out like what do we include and not in
00:21:17
the grade and what constitutes right
00:21:19
that's that gets into calibration like
00:21:21
well what is a three what is a b what is
00:21:23
a C+ right um you're hitting you're
00:21:26
getting it all the complexity this um
00:21:29
the second reason is that it's a little
00:21:31
artificial right so if I said you know
00:21:35
uh to an English teacher tell me the
00:21:37
difference between a student who is at a
00:21:40
84 and a student who's at an 85 what's
00:21:43
the difference between those two
00:21:44
students in their writing skills right
00:21:46
one brought the cupcak Jo well well or
00:21:49
one is higher than the one is one point
00:21:51
higher than the other that that's the
00:21:53
best right um so I think that it's a
00:21:56
little artificial to believe
00:21:59
that you can really make those
00:22:01
gradations in it even you know Math
00:22:03
teachers or science teachers or
00:22:05
something that has you know I had 100
00:22:07
points and you got 86 of them you didn't
00:22:09
get 85 you got 86 right you still it's
00:22:12
still artificial because you have made
00:22:15
questions what you wanted to make them
00:22:17
and you have scored them in the way that
00:22:19
you wanted them to be so in 86 in
00:22:22
algebra two can mean anything regardless
00:22:26
you know depending on which teacher you
00:22:27
have for it when you have fewer
00:22:30
gradations you could say a b c DF right
00:22:34
let's just say in or you know one to
00:22:36
four which is the same thing I could say
00:22:39
okay I'm teaching the Pythagorean
00:22:40
theorem right what is a level
00:22:43
understanding the Pythagorean theorem
00:22:45
what's B level understanding what's C
00:22:46
Level understanding What's d level
00:22:48
understanding and then if I want I can
00:22:50
do pluses and minuses because maybe
00:22:52
there's a little bit of variance in
00:22:54
there but then we can come to agreements
00:22:57
as Math teachers right we can look at a
00:22:59
bunch of student work we can understand
00:23:02
that these are B level so now when a
00:23:05
student does a piece of work on them on
00:23:07
the Pythagorean theorem I don't have to
00:23:09
say you're eight out of 24 or 16 out of
00:23:12
90 or whatever I can look at it and be
00:23:14
you know the totality of what you've
00:23:16
just shown me shows me that you're at a
00:23:18
B level understanding and it's so much
00:23:21
simpler um you know it's it's so much
00:23:25
clear and simple and it's very similar
00:23:27
to what students have in elementary
00:23:29
school and it's the GPA scale so that's
00:23:31
a snap um the the other problem around
00:23:35
the 0100 scale is around the
00:23:37
mathematical and soundus is when because
00:23:39
we have a scale in which we have twoth
00:23:42
thirds of it um that describe gradations
00:23:45
of failure right from zero to high
00:23:50
60s is basically subpar performance
00:23:54
right and we're saying we as your
00:23:56
Educators we think that it's you know
00:23:58
really important that we distinguish a
00:24:00
19 from a 26 to a 28 to a 31 from a 32
00:24:04
like we have all these levels of
00:24:06
describing failure failure and then we
00:24:08
have about a third of the scale to
00:24:10
describing success or competence right
00:24:12
so that's weird right off the bat right
00:24:14
that doesn't send a great message to
00:24:16
students and when you've got a scale
00:24:19
that's designed like that when you get
00:24:21
low scores it it has exerts a
00:24:24
gravitational pull on everything else
00:24:27
right we teachers know that kid gets a
00:24:29
zero that's an atomic zero right that
00:24:32
will just pull down the grades
00:24:35
disproportionately because we're using a
00:24:38
scale that has this kind of architecture
00:24:39
there's nothing sacrosanct about 0 to
00:24:41
100 nobody uses 0 to 100 outside
00:24:44
education at all right anytime you have
00:24:46
to demonstrate competency bar exam
00:24:49
medical boards nursing architecture
00:24:53
nothing driver's license nobody uses 0
00:24:55
to 100 scale right they have a cut SC
00:24:58
score or cut number and that's it right
00:25:01
there's just no reason for us to use
00:25:04
that anymore that's really cool and one
00:25:07
thing I and I'm not sure if you noticed
00:25:08
this in even in your language when you
00:25:10
switch from talking to 0 to 100 to 1 to
00:25:13
four all of what you described of
00:25:15
Student Success became understanding
00:25:17
language you know instead of I think we
00:25:19
can get so pulled down into the
00:25:20
nitty-gritties of like skills and
00:25:22
acquisition of knowledge and these
00:25:23
nitty-gritty things but when you zoom
00:25:25
into those compet or zoom out into
00:25:27
competencies it becomes these higher
00:25:28
level what will students understand what
00:25:31
will they take away and we turn our
00:25:33
minds then towards transfer as opposed
00:25:35
to just like myopically focused on
00:25:37
success now which is really
00:25:39
cool I like that would you say that
00:25:41
that's the biggest shift like moving
00:25:43
away from the zero to 100 is like the
00:25:45
biggest easiest shift a school can just
00:25:48
like do right off the back and like make
00:25:50
their school more
00:25:51
Equitable I know I'm not gonna say that
00:25:54
because because it's um it's very
00:25:57
tempting for the reason you just
00:25:59
described oh what a snap
00:26:05
I piece of cake it is really difficult
00:26:10
because again like I think
00:26:14
teachers I think it's a common error
00:26:16
actually of um school and District
00:26:19
leaders is where they see this glaring
00:26:21
problem and it seems like a no-brainer
00:26:24
like why wouldn't you change it knowing
00:26:27
what you know right so they're like all
00:26:29
right I'll make a policy that'll solve
00:26:30
it and what it does is it doesn't really
00:26:33
acknowledge the the need for us to build
00:26:37
the capacity in our teachers to
00:26:39
understand the why they actually this is
00:26:42
these are not technical changes these
00:26:43
are adaptive ones and ones that are
00:26:45
based on deep Theory and ideas and
00:26:50
teachers can all get there because they
00:26:52
can learn why it's bad and why it harms
00:26:55
students and why it isn't helpful for
00:26:56
them and how it can actually improve
00:26:58
improve their practice they can learn
00:26:59
those things I mean we work with
00:27:00
teachers and help them and once they
00:27:03
work it through they have to think well
00:27:06
what do I do about if I have a minimum
00:27:07
50 do I like and a kid doesn't hand
00:27:10
something in what do I do do I make it a
00:27:12
50 I don't like that and do I do
00:27:14
something different or if I have a zero
00:27:15
to four or one to four you know now I
00:27:18
don't have as many choices and like how
00:27:20
do I explain this to te to parents and
00:27:22
what about the software like I have a
00:27:24
grading software that doesn't allow me
00:27:26
to put in one or two three four it only
00:27:28
has percentages what do I do about that
00:27:30
like there's just and then parents have
00:27:32
to be educated wait a minute why is
00:27:34
where's my kids percentage I thought
00:27:37
they were always going to get a
00:27:38
percentage what have you done why are
00:27:39
you messing with my kid so there's
00:27:42
there's so many complexities around
00:27:44
there and it requires really um
00:27:47
deliberate
00:27:48
education um and just dialogue to help
00:27:52
engage all the constituents that you
00:27:55
serve around why
00:27:58
the why of this and why improving
00:28:01
grading to be more fair and accurate is
00:28:03
really a lever for larger instructional
00:28:06
change it's not like this tiny little
00:28:08
bow on the end of the at the end of the
00:28:10
present like this will re help everybody
00:28:13
in the system better understand what
00:28:15
we're here for and what we're trying to
00:28:17
communicate and expect of our students
00:28:20
so just as Leaders we're not looking for
00:28:22
the product we're not looking for the
00:28:24
final quick fix we're looking to make
00:28:26
space and time for these valuable
00:28:28
discussions and for that
00:28:30
thinking because you could like you said
00:28:32
you could just come in and mandate
00:28:33
something but then the culture isn't
00:28:35
going to change and that's what we're
00:28:36
after as school leaders is a systemic
00:28:38
and cultural change yep and you're
00:28:40
really touching on this pressure point
00:28:42
of teachers if you start changing how
00:28:44
they grade because as I said like they
00:28:46
protect this space they are the
00:28:48
authority so you know do this at your
00:28:51
own risk leaders we've seen it I mean
00:28:54
I'm a former leader and I get it I get
00:28:55
you want to solve the problem um but
00:28:57
we've just seen too many times the
00:28:59
administrators get ahead of the teachers
00:29:01
too far ahead of them and that's when
00:29:03
the problems start happening so where do
00:29:05
you begin Joe like because it's a
00:29:07
sensitive topic it's a topic that takes
00:29:09
a lot of time and shift in practice and
00:29:12
unen trenching and grained habits so if
00:29:16
you were a school leader recognizing in
00:29:18
this chat like oh dang I think my
00:29:19
grading is a little bit more on the
00:29:21
biased side what's that first leaping
00:29:23
spot for you you start with educating
00:29:25
the people around you and coming on to a
00:29:27
getting to a common um ground with the
00:29:31
other leaders in your school or in your
00:29:34
District so that you all can agree that
00:29:38
this is something to prioritize and
00:29:41
there's a some urgency around it and it
00:29:44
actually until we do this we will never
00:29:48
get to our our the outcomes we want I
00:29:50
mean we we can have the most amazing
00:29:53
curriculum and incredible you know
00:29:56
multimodal assessment Strate strategies
00:29:59
and culturally sustaining pedagogy and
00:30:01
diverse curriculum and all kind Hands-On
00:30:04
learning and it can all get undermined
00:30:07
if we house it all within our
00:30:09
traditional grading system and I think
00:30:12
if leaders can get on the same page
00:30:14
about that why um that's step one and
00:30:18
you know they'll take time they'll spend
00:30:20
you know a semester reading the book or
00:30:22
we'll do just workshops for leaders and
00:30:24
that includes board members right and
00:30:27
maybe it's teachers union leadership as
00:30:29
well or Department chairs right we all
00:30:31
got to like agree that this is something
00:30:34
worth our time and worth our energy um
00:30:38
and then I think the next step that we
00:30:39
found most effective is where you start
00:30:41
with finding a set of teachers who are
00:30:46
interested um have the social capital
00:30:49
have capacity in terms of time or
00:30:52
experience or or stiens or something who
00:30:56
can actually go deep into this work can
00:30:58
start trying the different practices um
00:31:00
that's the primary way that we partner
00:31:03
with schools and districts is to work
00:31:04
with a cohort of teachers over a couple
00:31:07
years to build their capacity to help be
00:31:10
resources for colleagues and to generate
00:31:12
an Evidence base for the district that
00:31:15
says look this isn't just in this book
00:31:18
like when we stopped doing X great
00:31:21
things happened when I changed to a one
00:31:23
to four scale when I stopped including
00:31:25
homework in the grade which I haven't
00:31:26
talked about or when and I you know
00:31:29
stopped including extra credit and I did
00:31:31
this and I used rubrics and all these
00:31:32
kinds of things amazing things happened
00:31:36
and that's what I think is so important
00:31:38
for a district to generate and to have
00:31:41
in order to help to then start moving it
00:31:44
throughout the system that ultimately
00:31:46
leads to policy change well and what a
00:31:48
beautiful space to Center the discussion
00:31:50
on because I think it can easily all of
00:31:52
these discussions around assessment and
00:31:54
what's worth assessing can just feel so
00:31:56
big and overwhelming but but grading is
00:31:59
almost this like this Touchstone that we
00:32:00
can all come back
00:32:02
to and I think that if you were to make
00:32:04
those shifts in the in the grading
00:32:06
itself that it would trickle into those
00:32:08
other aspects of of assessment and
00:32:10
culture and
00:32:11
beliefs yeah I mean one of the one of
00:32:13
the kind of great things about talking
00:32:15
about grading is everybody everybody has
00:32:17
an opinion and they're they all feel
00:32:19
deeply invested in it right once you
00:32:21
start talking about grading people are
00:32:22
like it's about me this is this is
00:32:25
really important to me because I've
00:32:26
spent a lot of my time figuring this out
00:32:28
and I know that I haven't based it on
00:32:30
anything except what I experienced so
00:32:33
I'm engaged and even though it's about
00:32:35
grading it really is not just about
00:32:37
grading because once to your very Point
00:32:40
once you start talking about these
00:32:41
things and opening them up you start
00:32:43
opening up other discussions around
00:32:45
assessment and how do we give feedback
00:32:48
to students and how do we help engage
00:32:51
them if not through points every day for
00:32:54
every activity right it starts opening
00:32:56
up all these other discussions that are
00:32:58
really valuable um and should be had and
00:33:00
this is a this is a vehicle to get to
00:33:03
those kinds of
00:33:04
questions it reminds me of doing like a
00:33:06
home renovation project you're like I'm
00:33:08
just gonna change This little light
00:33:09
fixture and then you take it off and the
00:33:11
Box of Lies unveils
00:33:14
itself Joe we've spent a lot of the
00:33:17
conversation looking backwards you know
00:33:19
at grading and an assessment and I'm
00:33:22
curious because I'm guessing in your
00:33:23
work you've gotten to be in some cool
00:33:26
spaces where you're seeing the fure
00:33:27
future now so what are you excited about
00:33:31
in the future of grading like what
00:33:32
really Sparks you either things you've
00:33:34
seen or things that you hope to see in
00:33:36
the next few
00:33:37
years I think that
00:33:39
um you know 10 years ago when I first
00:33:43
started doing this work there weren't a
00:33:45
lot of people talking about it um there
00:33:47
was a group you know standards-based
00:33:49
grading was there and people were
00:33:51
talking about it and they you know
00:33:52
Mastery grading I mean there there were
00:33:54
there was kind of language out there but
00:33:56
I think particularly as I said because
00:33:58
of the pandemic it really accelerated
00:33:59
people's interest in it and so I think
00:34:02
there's a lot more people talking about
00:34:03
it and which I think makes it a lot
00:34:05
easier for schools and districts to
00:34:08
start having the conversations too and
00:34:09
they don't feel so alone in it um I
00:34:13
think it's really cool that um College
00:34:16
uh and University faculty are talking
00:34:18
about it too um even you know I've been
00:34:21
having conversations with folks um in
00:34:25
the college admissions world yes um and
00:34:28
they are very aware that teachers grade
00:34:32
in all kinds of different ways and
00:34:34
aren't necessarily very trustworthy
00:34:37
oftentimes and they you know we we we
00:34:41
sort of see this pendulum of um the SAT
00:34:44
and ACT standardized testing come back
00:34:47
where it's now starting to be required
00:34:49
in more College admissions processes
00:34:51
even though it kind of went away from
00:34:53
the pandemic it's now coming back and I
00:34:56
think part of it is because when
00:34:58
teachers grading is so variable and
00:35:01
we're seeing some evidence that suggest
00:35:03
there's greater grade inflation from
00:35:05
grades than there had been that
00:35:08
admissions folks need to rely on
00:35:11
something some Metric right so they can
00:35:13
trust the um the grade and I think if
00:35:18
and and they will say if we know that
00:35:21
the grade represents a student's level
00:35:22
of understanding of the course content
00:35:25
that would be so helpful but right now
00:35:28
the grade is like this um this uh
00:35:31
Omnibus grade is what um it's been
00:35:34
called where the ideaas it includes how
00:35:37
they did on homework and did they raise
00:35:38
their hand and how they do on the test
00:35:39
and how they do on this unit and did
00:35:41
they come on time and did they hand it
00:35:43
in on time like all those things get
00:35:45
compressed and collapsed into the grade
00:35:47
so it could mean anything right a
00:35:49
student could be uh could have a b
00:35:51
because they know the content super well
00:35:54
but they always came in late and every
00:35:55
assignment was late or they could have a
00:35:57
be because they didn't know the content
00:35:59
so well but they were wonderful they
00:36:02
were just an angel and they did all the
00:36:04
extra credit stuff and so and they just
00:36:07
really connected with the teacher and
00:36:08
that kid has to be and so as long as
00:36:10
that's the case I think we teachers are
00:36:13
really inviting and Licensing the
00:36:17
standardized testing world to do its
00:36:19
thing um you know I don't love
00:36:21
standardized test a lot of teachers
00:36:22
don't like standardized test but we're
00:36:24
letting it happen I think and and this
00:36:26
is actually an opportunity to to build
00:36:29
our credibility build our
00:36:30
professionalism and and build trust I
00:36:33
think in in the grade because we
00:36:35
teachers are in the best position to
00:36:37
describe students Readiness for the next
00:36:39
level not a test but until we can really
00:36:43
work out this this 100 year old problem
00:36:46
and I think we're getting better at it
00:36:47
until we work our way through it um or I
00:36:50
think and when we work our way through
00:36:52
it I think we'll really be um able to
00:36:54
push back against standardized testing
00:36:56
um and really establish ourselves um in
00:36:59
the professionalism that um we deserve
00:37:02
frankly so everybody's talking about AI
00:37:04
right now um I think that AI can
00:37:08
actually will help push Equitable
00:37:10
grading in a couple ways one I think
00:37:13
that um well one of the really big
00:37:17
aspects of the motivational pillar is to
00:37:19
make grading transparent um make the
00:37:21
expectations transparent right so if I'm
00:37:24
I'm going to go back to my Pythagorean
00:37:25
theorem if I expect you to know the
00:37:26
Pythagorean theorem I'm going to tell
00:37:28
you what level of understanding you have
00:37:30
to demonstrate that that would describe
00:37:34
your understanding as an A B C D right I
00:37:36
just it's a rubric it's a proficiency
00:37:38
scale and AI is can be really helpful in
00:37:42
generating proficiency scales right you
00:37:44
could say you know here's an here's an
00:37:47
example of an A B C DF or here's three
00:37:50
examples of each and here are the
00:37:52
criteria create a rubric right right and
00:37:55
I and then you could even have students
00:37:58
submit um uh samples of the work and
00:38:01
then have ai tell where they fit on the
00:38:04
rubric right and I think you could get
00:38:06
immediate feedback yeah immediate
00:38:08
feedback around fixed standards fixed
00:38:10
outcomes that would at least help to
00:38:13
mitigate biases would um have feedback
00:38:17
more quickly and we know how important
00:38:19
it is to have quick feedback you know I
00:38:21
don't know that I would use that for
00:38:22
summative assessment and kind of final
00:38:25
judgments um of teachers but I think
00:38:28
that in itself could be a huge driver in
00:38:32
in getting this this work to get um to
00:38:34
move a little faster
00:38:37
um yeah I think that I think there's
00:38:40
something
00:38:41
there the thing I hear from teachers are
00:38:44
a big like a bulk against AI being used
00:38:47
in that way is they're like okay so the
00:38:49
AI is going to create the assignment and
00:38:51
the student's going to use AI to
00:38:52
complete the assignment and then the AI
00:38:54
is going to assess the assignment like
00:38:56
that it becomes just this like a Loop do
00:38:58
you worry about that at all like I'm I
00:39:00
don't really worry about that that much
00:39:01
but do you worry about it or how do we
00:39:03
overcome that well I mean I think we've
00:39:06
got to think about you know when a
00:39:08
student is in front of us they have to
00:39:11
sub they have to do the work on their
00:39:13
own you know one of the one of the I
00:39:16
think one of the um reasons why teachers
00:39:21
fear AI is because there's no way that
00:39:24
they can effectively control whether or
00:39:26
not use it outside the classroom they
00:39:29
they can kind of inside but they can't
00:39:31
outside right so when they include here
00:39:33
we go when they include homework in the
00:39:36
grade they are building an incentive for
00:39:39
students to use whatever means they can
00:39:41
to complete the assignment in the most
00:39:43
effective way right right my tutor my
00:39:46
older brother my parent uh or AI right
00:39:50
because all I'm asked to do is do the
00:39:52
homework well enough so I get the
00:39:55
maximum number of points the homework is
00:39:56
essentially four for the teacher it's
00:39:58
not for me it's for the teacher I got to
00:40:00
show them that the best I can when
00:40:02
teachers stop including homework in the
00:40:04
grade and they say look it's for when
00:40:06
you go out and shoot when yeah it's for
00:40:07
you when you go out and shoot free
00:40:09
throws in the backyard nobody's counting
00:40:11
up your free throws and then bringing it
00:40:12
to the game so when I assign homework
00:40:15
it's practice you do it you want to use
00:40:18
AI I don't care you want to do it on
00:40:20
your own I don't care how do you learn
00:40:21
Best But ultimately it's there to help
00:40:24
you learn so when you have the
00:40:26
assessment in class that's going to see
00:40:28
where you are is just you so maybe I
00:40:32
even open it up and take a poll of
00:40:34
students who used AI last night who
00:40:35
didn't use it how use it yeah how' to go
00:40:39
then let's do a quiz and let's see like
00:40:41
the people who used AI did they do
00:40:42
better worse does it help you do better
00:40:45
how did you use it help us understand
00:40:48
exactly right and there might be kids
00:40:50
who used it and didn't do well oh let's
00:40:51
figure out what happened so it's not
00:40:53
like this magical ticket to like help
00:40:55
you do well you actually have to use in
00:40:57
particular ways or maybe you don't need
00:40:59
it but you do and that's okay right I
00:41:01
think all these ways of when you don't
00:41:04
include homework you open up these
00:41:07
really important metacognitive and and
00:41:09
other ways of thinking about learning to
00:41:12
build students capacity to know how they
00:41:14
learn best and what can make them
00:41:16
successful so then they go to college
00:41:18
where no one's you know dropping off
00:41:20
points if they come late or checking to
00:41:23
see where they did homework every day or
00:41:24
when they go in the professional world
00:41:25
right you didn't ask me Hey Joe how how
00:41:28
long did you prep for this interview
00:41:30
because you know I'm G to make it's
00:41:31
going to be better or worse depending on
00:41:33
how no if I do okay in this I know I
00:41:37
prepped enough if I don't do okay I
00:41:38
didn't prep enough or I didn't prep the
00:41:40
right way right that's how the real
00:41:42
professional World works and so we can
00:41:44
help equip our students to be able to be
00:41:45
successful in that world when we give
00:41:47
them the chance to do
00:41:49
it it's just I just love how it comes
00:41:52
back to this larger theme of just
00:41:53
removing punitive measures like so many
00:41:56
times we use use assessment and graded
00:41:58
grading as this punitive thing is like
00:42:00
you said like it's that points culture
00:42:02
and when we can shift
00:42:04
towards learning is something I'm
00:42:06
teaching you to do for yourself so that
00:42:08
you can go and be successful in the
00:42:09
world and this is a task I think would
00:42:11
be helpful for you to do because I've
00:42:13
know we noticed together that this is a
00:42:15
skill that you're working on how much
00:42:17
more meaningful of a conversation and a
00:42:19
task is that for a kid versus like you
00:42:21
know you're going to get more points if
00:42:23
you do this homework of course you're
00:42:25
going to use AI for that and I think
00:42:27
that is ultimately what AI does for work
00:42:30
now in schools is it challenges us to
00:42:32
ask how do we communicate the value of
00:42:34
this to our learners for themselves in
00:42:36
their lives now and Beyond school so
00:42:40
just get this beautiful thread there of
00:42:43
just purpose and and
00:42:46
intention yeah um there's this great
00:42:48
quote that um the PE
00:42:51
um the when you don't trust people you
00:42:54
try and control them more um and when
00:42:57
you control uh and when you trust people
00:43:00
more you try to control them
00:43:02
less um and I think there's really
00:43:05
something in that that um students are
00:43:08
really capable of pretty amazing things
00:43:12
and sometimes we as teachers spend a lot
00:43:14
of our time controlling their behavior
00:43:16
and really preventing ourselves from
00:43:19
seeing what students to do and certainly
00:43:20
prevent them from showing it and and
00:43:22
expressing it and growing in those areas
00:43:25
um and you know we I think particularly
00:43:28
have done that for historically
00:43:30
underserved folks you know students of
00:43:31
color black students latinx indigenous
00:43:33
students and and students of lower
00:43:35
income and have special needs I mean I
00:43:37
think we have really used grading to
00:43:40
punish those groups
00:43:42
disproportionately um because we have
00:43:44
particular ways that they should learn
00:43:46
or particular things you know agendas
00:43:47
that we're trying to or I shouldn't say
00:43:49
agendas it's really not that like
00:43:50
particular kind of ways of being that we
00:43:53
use grading to push students to or away
00:43:56
from from um and I think we can actually
00:44:00
like get Beyond a lot of that through
00:44:02
these ways you know we we we know that
00:44:05
we have these kinds of biases in our
00:44:07
grading like you know I I have students
00:44:09
write their name on the back of the
00:44:10
paper right because I know that if I see
00:44:12
their name I might you know grade them
00:44:16
differently and so I put have kids put
00:44:18
their names on the back of the paper and
00:44:20
I think that um you know this sort of
00:44:23
controlling the environment um and not
00:44:27
recognizing how I bring things into the
00:44:29
environment that that make it a more
00:44:32
controlling space I think is one that
00:44:34
that this kind of work helps interrogate
00:44:36
and open up o that is cool school
00:44:40
leaders and teachers I think if you come
00:44:42
away with one big question to to
00:44:45
continue pondering in this episode it's
00:44:47
it's what am I trying to control and who
00:44:49
is being served by that and how would
00:44:52
trust how would trust make everything
00:44:54
better Trust
00:44:57
a
00:45:00
[Music]
