The 7 SURPRISING Ways To Heal Trauma WITHOUT MEDICATION | Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk

01:31:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrOBHyDRS-c

Summary

TLDRThe video contains an in-depth discussion with Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, focusing on trauma's impact on individuals and society. It highlights how trauma leads to a lack of self-control due to intense emotional reactions, unlike stress which is temporary. The social environment is crucial in supporting trauma recovery as it helps individuals feel safe and secure. Dr. van der Kolk emphasizes the prevalence of trauma, affecting a significant portion of the population through abuse, violence, and other traumatic experiences. Treatment approaches explored include yoga, which aids in calming the body, EMDR, which helps in reprocessing traumatic memories, neurofeedback for brain organization, theater for expressing different roles, and psychedelics for expanding the mind and processing trauma. The conversation also challenges conventional treatments for chronic conditions like fibromyalgia, urging a view of them linked to trauma. A holistic approach to treatment and the importance of feeling safe within one's body are central themes. Finally, the importance of not shaming victims and recognizing their survival methods is underscored.

Takeaways

  • 🧠 Trauma impacts both the mind and body and can lead to a sense of losing control.
  • 🤝 Strong social connections are vital for recovery from trauma.
  • 🔄 Trauma differs from stress as it involves ongoing reactions.
  • 🧘 Yoga and other body-focused therapies help calm intense reactions.
  • 💭 EMDR and neurofeedback can effectively aid in trauma treatment.
  • 🎭 Theater and movement help restore a sense of agency in individuals.
  • 🌿 Psychedelics are being explored as a novel approach to trauma therapy.
  • 📊 Trauma is prevalent, and recognizing it can foster compassionate understanding.
  • 👥 Trauma's secrecy often impedes healing, awareness needs to increase.
  • 💡 Many chronic conditions are intertwined with trauma and need holistic care.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    In "The Body Keeps the Score," trauma is described as an internal reaction to external events, leaving individuals with intense emotional reactions. They often feel emotionally out of control, blaming their responses and struggles on external circumstances. The challenge is recognizing and controlling these reactions, as shutting down emotionally can distance oneself from others.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    The conversation highlights that trauma is common, with many individuals experiencing abuse, domestic violence, and attacks, yet many remain silent due to shame and secrecy. The speaker emphasizes how reactions vary based on temperament and social support, with community connections vital for recovery and resilience, especially in shared traumatic events like wartime.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Discussing the need for societal awareness of trauma, it is suggested that we need to create trauma-informed environments that focus on safety and agency. The speaker elaborates on how even seemingly minor incidents in relationships can trigger reactions rooted in past traumas, leading to disproportionate responses due to unresolved childhood issues.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Emphasizing the societal impact, the speaker notes the importance of understanding trauma beyond individual symptoms, affecting various systems like schools and workplaces. The discussion compares trauma responses to stress and highlights how unresolved trauma perpetuates heightened reactivity and health issues like autoimmune disorders, and chronic conditions, calling for patience and multifaceted treatment approaches.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    The speaker addresses frustrations within the medical community about treating conditions linked to trauma, like fibromyalgia. There's a call to understand the deep connections between trauma and enduring health problems, urging a shift from dismissive attitudes by developing specific, holistic care strategies to help patients, highlighting issues in doctor-patient interactions and the need for more compassionate approaches.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    They explore the way trauma impacts perceptions of safety in one’s own body, affecting emotional states. Yoga is highlighted as a powerful intervention, helping individuals become calm and focused, opening pathways for self-examination and resilience. The therapeutic impact of yoga is acknowledged as a method for reintegrating and reconnecting with both the self and others.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    Yoga and other physical practices, such as martial arts or dance, are recommended to individuals to reestablish comfort in their bodies. The impact of breath-work and mindful movement is shown to help regulate neurological responses, assisting trauma survivors to manage physiological reactions more effectively and remain present in daily life.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    The body's learned responses to stress and trauma can inhibit recovery if not addressed. Movement-oriented practices encourage physiological changes that aid recovery by activating brain areas tied to sensory experience. The speaker underscores the individual need to find suitable practices to reestablish safety and pleasure in one's physical existence.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    There is a recognition of movement’s fundamental role in human experience, underlined by the social nature of historically shared and communal activities. The shared aspects of movement transform trauma recovery in group settings, challenging culturally individualistic approaches found in Western medicine, particularly through social engagements like group exercises.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Theater is highlighted for its transformational ability in trauma recovery, enabling individuals to explore new identities and express repressed emotions. Engaging in role-playing allows people to embody and visually experience different facets of humanity, offering a therapeutic space for empowerment and tonal shifts from internalized defeat to renewed agency.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:00

    The conversation transitions into evidence-based practices with the importance of research validation. Movement-based interventions are linked to studies supporting their efficacy, advocating for broader implementation in therapeutic settings, particularly focusing on the importance of community and collective healing for holistic recovery.

  • 00:55:00 - 01:00:00

    EMDR is discussed as an unconventional yet effective therapy for trauma, emphasizing its role in reorganizing neural networks to alleviate traumatic triggers and memories. EMDR's success is tied to its capacity to transform traumatic memories into non-threatening past events, underscoring the need for evidence-based treatment validation.

  • 01:00:00 - 01:05:00

    The discussion shifts to the challenges of treating complex trauma with methods like EMDR, laying out its capabilities and limitations. EMDR is posited as particularly effective for acute, single-incident trauma, though it faces challenges in broader applications, stressing the critical need to understand treatment suitability for varied trauma contexts.

  • 01:05:00 - 01:10:00

    The speaker praises dance, drama, and movement practices in trauma therapy, emphasizing how they facilitate emotional release and personal growth. Strengthening these practices through scientific inquiry could amplify their integration into mainstream therapy, providing meaningful paths for trauma survivors.

  • 01:10:00 - 01:15:00

    Technology's role in trauma work is acknowledged with neurofeedback and digital applications emerging as tools to bridge brain connectivity consciously. These methods promote harmony within brain functioning, potentially offering targeted, adaptive interventions to support diverse psychological needs in trauma recovery.

  • 01:15:00 - 01:20:00

    Psychedelic therapy is presented as a compelling intervention undergoing study, illustrating its potential by broadening perspectives and nurturing self-compassion. Ensuring safety through stringent controls validates these therapies’ benefits in altering entrenched trauma responses, although care is advocated to avoid misuse.

  • 01:20:00 - 01:25:00

    Reflecting on trauma's societal lessons, the speaker affirms survivors’ resiliency and adaptive strategies, even if problematic, as crucial insights into human endurance. While often arising from painful experiences, such transformations can contribute to larger cultural understandings of compassion and innovative coping.

  • 01:25:00 - 01:31:27

    The conversation wraps by contemplating on trauma’s role in inspiring resilience and creativity, acknowledging those who channel transformative experiences into art and knowledge, ultimately enriching humanity. It's emphasized that while trauma can yield profound insights, individual and collective responsibility toward healing and support remains indispensable.

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Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • What did Dr. Bessel van der Kolk mean by saying trauma robs you of feeling in charge of yourself?

    He explained that trauma causes people to have intense emotional reactions that are hard to control, making them feel that their lives are out of control.

  • What is the primary difference between stress and trauma according to Dr. van der Kolk?

    Stress ends once the stressful event is over, but trauma results in ongoing intense emotional reactions long after the event.

  • How common is trauma?

    Trauma is extremely common, with many people experiencing abuse, violence, or traumatic events during their lives.

  • Why does Dr. van der Kolk emphasize the importance of a social environment after trauma?

    He suggests that having a supportive social environment helps individuals feel safe and recover from traumatic experiences.

  • What can be effective treatments for trauma according to the video?

    Yoga, EMDR, neurofeedback, theater, and psychedelics are mentioned as effective treatments that help individuals manage and heal from trauma.

  • What role does movement and theater play in healing trauma?

    Movement and theater allow individuals to experience different states and roles which can help in re-establishing their sense of self and agency.

  • How does the video describe the societal understanding of trauma?

    Trauma is often hidden due to shame and secrecy, and there needs to be a shift towards compassionate understanding and management.

  • What potential does psychedelics hold in trauma treatment?

    Psychedelics can open up the mind to new possibilities and might help individuals process trauma by not feeling engulfed by it.

  • How should chronic illnesses like fibromyalgia be viewed according to Dr. van der Kolk?

    These conditions are often linked to trauma and require a multi-faceted approach for treatment rather than being dismissed as psychological issues.

  • What importance does Dr. van der Kolk place on bodily sensations in relation to trauma?

    He stresses that trauma is experienced in the body, and healing involves reconnecting with the body's sensations to feel safe again.

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  • 00:00:00
    I wanted to start with a quote from your
  • 00:00:03
    iconic book the body keeps the score
  • 00:00:06
    trauma robs you of the feeling that you
  • 00:00:09
    are in charge of yourself
  • 00:00:11
    oh that's that's a true statement what
  • 00:00:15
    did you mean by that
  • 00:00:17
    um
  • 00:00:18
    where you get traumatized
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    it's not the external event but your
  • 00:00:24
    reaction to that external event is that
  • 00:00:27
    you uh you cannot cope with it and then
  • 00:00:31
    You're vulnerable to react to other
  • 00:00:34
    things as if they're catastrophes so you
  • 00:00:37
    may suddenly find yourself very scared
  • 00:00:40
    or very angry or very aroused a very
  • 00:00:44
    panicky or you can shut down and so you
  • 00:00:48
    really have no control over this intense
  • 00:00:50
    emotional reactions that happen after a
  • 00:00:53
    trauma yeah so in many ways people who
  • 00:00:57
    are traumatized feel that their lives
  • 00:01:01
    are out of control that life is I guess
  • 00:01:04
    happening to them rather than them being
  • 00:01:07
    in control of their lives yeah they they
  • 00:01:10
    keep reacting to stuff and
  • 00:01:14
    things are disorganized and then
  • 00:01:17
    oftentimes they start off blaming the
  • 00:01:19
    people around them for having caused
  • 00:01:22
    them to be so angry or Panic or
  • 00:01:24
    something or another but after a while
  • 00:01:26
    people start realizing oh it's really my
  • 00:01:30
    reactions that uh that make life so
  • 00:01:33
    difficult and so how do I control these
  • 00:01:35
    reactions becomes a major issue and
  • 00:01:39
    oftentimes people learn to sort of shut
  • 00:01:41
    themselves down and learn to not react
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    but with that they they become very uh
  • 00:01:47
    distant to themselves and the people
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    around them
  • 00:01:51
    I think what you said there was really
  • 00:01:53
    quite poignant for me that we often
  • 00:01:56
    think it's the people around us that are
  • 00:01:58
    causing us
  • 00:01:59
    to feel a certain way without that deep
  • 00:02:02
    realization that actually
  • 00:02:04
    we're generating those emotions we may
  • 00:02:06
    not know why we're generating them but
  • 00:02:08
    ultimately it's coming from within us
  • 00:02:10
    isn't it yeah that the whole story had
  • 00:02:13
    like because you know negotiating your
  • 00:02:16
    ways to the world is complex
  • 00:02:18
    um people will say things that may not
  • 00:02:22
    be pleasant or they may not respect you
  • 00:02:24
    as much as you'd like it to be but the
  • 00:02:27
    core issue is how do I react to adverse
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    issues and I cannot change everybody
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    else I have to actually
  • 00:02:37
    learn to manage my own arousal and my
  • 00:02:42
    own reactivity yeah
  • 00:02:46
    what's the difference between trauma and
  • 00:02:49
    stress
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    the big difference is when stress is
  • 00:02:53
    over
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    it's over
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    and so when you sit for an exam you're
  • 00:02:58
    working hard and you may not be able to
  • 00:03:00
    sleep but once you take the exam you can
  • 00:03:03
    go for a walk you can go do whatever you
  • 00:03:06
    want to do and the the stress disappears
  • 00:03:10
    and stress it's not bad for people
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    because we really are
  • 00:03:17
    programmed to deal with very adverse
  • 00:03:19
    circumstances
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    that people can deal with a great deal
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    of stress but the critical thing is when
  • 00:03:26
    the stress is over and you've done
  • 00:03:28
    whatever you need to do to deal with it
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    then your body resets itself you become
  • 00:03:33
    calm and you stop being hyper focused or
  • 00:03:36
    whatever but you get trauma test those
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    reactions don't stop
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    so trauma is almost like a severe stress
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    response
  • 00:03:46
    that never ends and that starts to
  • 00:03:49
    change our nervous system and how we
  • 00:03:52
    view the world how we react to the world
  • 00:03:54
    is that is that one way of putting it no
  • 00:03:57
    it's not it's not as cognitive as view
  • 00:03:59
    the world as really how we react to the
  • 00:04:01
    world a reactivity uh changes and we may
  • 00:04:07
    become too intensely uh aroused by minor
  • 00:04:11
    issues so actually so Trump we're
  • 00:04:15
    talking from a neuro
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    Neuroscience point of view we have some
  • 00:04:20
    networks in the brain that help us to
  • 00:04:23
    select what's important what's an
  • 00:04:25
    important is called the salience network
  • 00:04:27
    and after you get traumatized the
  • 00:04:30
    salience network makes you react to
  • 00:04:33
    minor issues as if it's a catastrophe
  • 00:04:37
    yeah
  • 00:04:39
    how common is trauma would you say oh
  • 00:04:42
    extremely common and there's of course
  • 00:04:44
    all kind of radiations but things like
  • 00:04:47
    being abused by your own parents uh
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    being uh brutalized in your personal
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    Relationships by somebody uh is
  • 00:04:58
    extremely common and it is really ironic
  • 00:05:02
    that when we first defined PTSD we said
  • 00:05:05
    this is an extraordinary event outside
  • 00:05:08
    the usual range of human experience and
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    we were completely wrong about it but
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    because when we started to look at it we
  • 00:05:16
    found out that at least one out of four
  • 00:05:19
    women but out of five or six men sexual
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    abuse
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    experiences before the onset of
  • 00:05:28
    adulthood for example that a very large
  • 00:05:32
    number of women get raped a very large
  • 00:05:35
    numbers of people are involved in
  • 00:05:37
    domestic violence situations
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    so it's in fact it's turned out to be
  • 00:05:42
    much more common than we ever thought it
  • 00:05:44
    would be
  • 00:05:46
    I mean those statistics are really
  • 00:05:47
    alarming when you put it like that I
  • 00:05:49
    imagine uh Dr vandercoat that some
  • 00:05:53
    people who were listening or watching
  • 00:05:55
    right now will think wow is it that many
  • 00:05:57
    people they will think well I know loads
  • 00:06:01
    of women and loads of guys and I've
  • 00:06:04
    never heard about this happening to them
  • 00:06:06
    which potentially speaks to
  • 00:06:08
    secrecy shame the fact that many people
  • 00:06:12
    have suffered this and are continuing to
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    suffer because of the traumatic imprints
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    but they're not talking about it right
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    that is on the mark that uh when you
  • 00:06:25
    after you get try if you after you get
  • 00:06:27
    salted or after you get Vaped you don't
  • 00:06:29
    go around telling people about it
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    there's always this issue of I I must be
  • 00:06:34
    to blame for what happens or if you're
  • 00:06:37
    in the domestic violence situation you
  • 00:06:40
    don't tell people oh my my boyfriend or
  • 00:06:43
    my girlfriend just beat me up because
  • 00:06:45
    that reflects badly on you and so shame
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    and secrecy is very much part of trauma
  • 00:06:52
    situations it's very striking when
  • 00:06:54
    there's a public trauma uh my example in
  • 00:06:59
    the culture I live in is 9 11 had a
  • 00:07:02
    technical Trade Center when there's an
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    over trauma people tend to be very
  • 00:07:06
    generous in terms of coming to people's
  • 00:07:09
    helps but these private dramas of abuse
  • 00:07:12
    Etc uh become hidden and people try to
  • 00:07:17
    go on with their lives but they keep
  • 00:07:19
    reacting as if it's still going on yeah
  • 00:07:21
    now when I think about trauma and
  • 00:07:25
    traumatic events
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    I think about the fact that different
  • 00:07:30
    people being exposed to the same trauma
  • 00:07:32
    will react in different ways some people
  • 00:07:35
    will end up becoming heavily traumatized
  • 00:07:38
    yeah whereas some people won't so what
  • 00:07:42
    are the factors then that determine if
  • 00:07:45
    someone is going to
  • 00:07:47
    have that chronic imprint of trauma or
  • 00:07:50
    whether they're going to be able to deal
  • 00:07:51
    with it you know deal with that stress
  • 00:07:53
    response and return back to Baseline do
  • 00:07:55
    we know what those factors are well
  • 00:07:57
    there certainly is an issue of
  • 00:07:58
    temperament
  • 00:07:59
    anybody who has more than one child
  • 00:08:02
    knows that we all come into the world
  • 00:08:04
    with very different reactivity and
  • 00:08:07
    different responses so that is one
  • 00:08:10
    factor but the other major factor is the
  • 00:08:13
    uh is the social environment and who is
  • 00:08:16
    there for you when something bad happens
  • 00:08:18
    by and large if you go through a
  • 00:08:22
    terrible experience and you have a
  • 00:08:24
    partner a spouse a parent a boss who
  • 00:08:28
    says oh my God how can I help you I'll
  • 00:08:31
    be there for you but in your social
  • 00:08:33
    environment helps you to protect
  • 00:08:36
    yourself and to feel safe again that
  • 00:08:39
    makes a huge difference so the the
  • 00:08:41
    principle for example after natural
  • 00:08:44
    disasters or after accident since uh War
  • 00:08:49
    situation the first thing you do is you
  • 00:08:51
    reconnect people with the people they
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    love and care for because that is really
  • 00:08:57
    what for human beings is the main source
  • 00:09:00
    of comfort and so as long as you have
  • 00:09:03
    people around you who acknowledge the
  • 00:09:05
    reality of what you went through and who
  • 00:09:08
    are with you in a very deep way you
  • 00:09:10
    probably will be okay yeah and that of
  • 00:09:14
    course is what happens in like wartime
  • 00:09:17
    situations when people are at War like
  • 00:09:20
    what's happening in Ukraine right now uh
  • 00:09:22
    is that people feel very close to each
  • 00:09:25
    other and that's sort of a natural
  • 00:09:28
    biological thing almost that when we are
  • 00:09:31
    under extreme stress we really become
  • 00:09:33
    very dependent on each other and we form
  • 00:09:36
    very close bonds and that's how people
  • 00:09:38
    survive but if the people who are your
  • 00:09:43
    most intimate people are deserved to
  • 00:09:44
    determine you lose that sense of
  • 00:09:46
    connection and protection and then they
  • 00:09:50
    oftentimes that is when people go over
  • 00:09:52
    the edge yeah it's interesting it's
  • 00:09:53
    always preparing for this conversation
  • 00:09:55
    and I was reading in your work the
  • 00:09:57
    importance of human connection at making
  • 00:09:59
    us I guess generally more resilient but
  • 00:10:03
    in many ways insulating us from
  • 00:10:07
    the likelihood that a traumatic event is
  • 00:10:10
    going to leave a chronic imprint inside
  • 00:10:12
    yes it's it's insulin is a bit of an
  • 00:10:16
    extreme word here okay it helps it's uh
  • 00:10:20
    it makes a significant contribution yeah
  • 00:10:23
    but instead no it's true total a word
  • 00:10:26
    but overall when your kid for example
  • 00:10:30
    and you need to go through an operation
  • 00:10:32
    or uh terrible things happen to you and
  • 00:10:36
    your parents are there for you and
  • 00:10:38
    acknowledge it then that kid is likely
  • 00:10:40
    to be okay yeah huh yeah really really
  • 00:10:43
    interesting
  • 00:10:45
    yeah I think one of my aims with having
  • 00:10:48
    this conversation with you uh is to
  • 00:10:52
    try and raise awareness of trauma
  • 00:10:55
    certainly to my audience and as you've
  • 00:10:58
    already touched on it's much more common
  • 00:11:01
    than we might think I certainly feel
  • 00:11:03
    that the word is now much more commonly
  • 00:11:07
    known about spoken about potentially
  • 00:11:10
    in settings that you may not regard as
  • 00:11:12
    trauma like we can maybe talk about that
  • 00:11:15
    but I do think this affects everyone on
  • 00:11:19
    some level whether individually or
  • 00:11:21
    judging from your statistics that you
  • 00:11:23
    shared there's there's absolutely going
  • 00:11:26
    to be someone in our life who we
  • 00:11:28
    interact with who has been traumatized
  • 00:11:31
    so I think it's imperative that we all
  • 00:11:33
    have a deeper and more compassionate
  • 00:11:35
    understanding
  • 00:11:37
    of what it is and therefore what we can
  • 00:11:39
    do to help people
  • 00:11:41
    absolutely uh and it's true that people
  • 00:11:45
    are beginning to it the concept gets
  • 00:11:47
    inflated
  • 00:11:48
    people's pin too much on trauma also in
  • 00:11:51
    some ways at the same time uh
  • 00:11:54
    a time is a very real issue let me give
  • 00:11:58
    you an example I I live in a couch in
  • 00:12:00
    the mountains of Western Massachusetts
  • 00:12:01
    and they gave a big public talk and
  • 00:12:04
    after the school principles of this area
  • 00:12:07
    invited me to meet with them and they
  • 00:12:09
    say can you set up a clinic retirement
  • 00:12:12
    as kids
  • 00:12:13
    and I asked him so many how many of the
  • 00:12:16
    kids in our County see domestic violence
  • 00:12:19
    witness people overdosing on drugs uh uh
  • 00:12:24
    get beaten up at home and the School
  • 00:12:27
    principles said about half of our kids
  • 00:12:32
    and my response then was then you should
  • 00:12:35
    not have a clinic for termites kids you
  • 00:12:37
    should have a school system that helps
  • 00:12:39
    traumatized because
  • 00:12:41
    which is at least about half of your
  • 00:12:43
    population to really learn to regulate
  • 00:12:45
    our bodies and to and to you need to
  • 00:12:48
    have a trauma informed school and not
  • 00:12:50
    read it as an individual problem because
  • 00:12:52
    it's largely social problems and so once
  • 00:12:55
    you understand trauma you change the
  • 00:12:58
    workplace you change your schools you
  • 00:13:00
    change your hospitals and you really
  • 00:13:02
    start paying more attention to the issue
  • 00:13:05
    of individual safety and agency to help
  • 00:13:08
    people to function yeah
  • 00:13:11
    now with the same trauma
  • 00:13:13
    I think most of the public would
  • 00:13:15
    understand
  • 00:13:16
    intuitively if someone's been to war
  • 00:13:19
    let's say we would say that's a
  • 00:13:21
    traumatic experience yeah but what about
  • 00:13:24
    something that I think
  • 00:13:26
    pretty much anyone who's ever been in a
  • 00:13:29
    relationship will experience something
  • 00:13:31
    like this at some point when their
  • 00:13:32
    partner says something to them that may
  • 00:13:35
    well be on the surface quite trivial but
  • 00:13:38
    for some reason the other partner
  • 00:13:42
    disproportionately reacts maybe they're
  • 00:13:44
    being reminded of when a parent
  • 00:13:46
    criticized them when they were five
  • 00:13:47
    years old and when their partner says
  • 00:13:49
    something it isn't about what the
  • 00:13:51
    partner said it's about the feeling that
  • 00:13:53
    evokes very similar to what you just
  • 00:13:55
    mentioned that happened when you were a
  • 00:13:58
    child can we say that is trauma as well
  • 00:14:02
    well no I would say it's about an
  • 00:14:05
    experience but I'm glad you borders are
  • 00:14:08
    of this example because you know about a
  • 00:14:11
    third of all couples engage in violence
  • 00:14:14
    violent interactions so uh
  • 00:14:17
    a lot of people carry a lot of trauma
  • 00:14:19
    and in relationships it comes out and uh
  • 00:14:24
    but once you get become intimate with
  • 00:14:26
    somebody else you live with that
  • 00:14:28
    triggered behavior and some things may
  • 00:14:30
    be extremely upsetting for your partner
  • 00:14:33
    who may become very angry or shut down
  • 00:14:35
    in response to things that you have no
  • 00:14:39
    idea but was so awful about it and at
  • 00:14:42
    that point once you become a sensitive
  • 00:14:45
    you can go like oh my partner is still
  • 00:14:48
    being just being nasty mean and horrible
  • 00:14:50
    my partner gets upset by something it
  • 00:14:53
    has very little to do with me
  • 00:14:55
    and you can really just take a step back
  • 00:14:59
    and say honey let's go for a walk before
  • 00:15:02
    we address this or let's play some
  • 00:15:05
    tennis together or let's uh sit in this
  • 00:15:08
    for a moment or talk to somebody who
  • 00:15:10
    else about what's going on here so you
  • 00:15:13
    get the heat of the situation uh you
  • 00:15:16
    could you decrease the heat of what's
  • 00:15:18
    going on but the relationships all the
  • 00:15:20
    time of course yeah in fact in my
  • 00:15:23
    experience at least I see this playing
  • 00:15:25
    out in people's close personal
  • 00:15:27
    relationships all the time it's of
  • 00:15:30
    course it could be about what's
  • 00:15:31
    happening in their relationship but in
  • 00:15:33
    my experience it's very rarely about
  • 00:15:34
    what happened in that moment it's what
  • 00:15:37
    that is making that other person feel
  • 00:15:41
    um which is why I think your work is so
  • 00:15:42
    important both for people who have
  • 00:15:44
    experienced trauma but also for people
  • 00:15:47
    who want to help their loved ones who
  • 00:15:49
    have been traumatized yeah yeah
  • 00:15:52
    and indeed it comes out intimidating
  • 00:15:55
    issues most people are able to
  • 00:15:59
    to organize themselves pretty well under
  • 00:16:03
    in neutral conditions have for example I
  • 00:16:06
    have no idea that whether you become
  • 00:16:09
    violent in your personal relationships
  • 00:16:10
    or not and you don't know about me
  • 00:16:13
    because we don't have the sort of
  • 00:16:15
    relationship where we will get triggers
  • 00:16:17
    about these very core issues so it's not
  • 00:16:20
    until you really negotiate very complex
  • 00:16:23
    issues about that happens in close
  • 00:16:25
    relationships that these issues come out
  • 00:16:28
    uh uh so it gets it gets contained
  • 00:16:32
    within relationships and I keep urging
  • 00:16:35
    my colleagues who do outcome studies to
  • 00:16:38
    always not only ask people themselves
  • 00:16:41
    but how do you react but as their
  • 00:16:44
    spouses or their loved ones because they
  • 00:16:46
    oftentimes can be say more about
  • 00:16:48
    people's emotional reactions yeah
  • 00:16:52
    yeah
  • 00:16:53
    so if we think about
  • 00:16:56
    trauma we're saying it's very common
  • 00:16:57
    it's more common than many of us realize
  • 00:17:01
    as a medical doctor
  • 00:17:04
    I'm incredibly fascinated stroke
  • 00:17:08
    frustrated that trauma is not really
  • 00:17:12
    spoken about that much to medical
  • 00:17:13
    students because I think about
  • 00:17:15
    particularly in general practice
  • 00:17:18
    you know the sort of chronic conditions
  • 00:17:21
    that often come in to primary care
  • 00:17:23
    doctors
  • 00:17:25
    you know anxiety depression addictions
  • 00:17:28
    uh migraines fibromyalgia all you know a
  • 00:17:32
    whole host of issues autoimmune problems
  • 00:17:35
    actually that the scientific research
  • 00:17:37
    seems to suggest that trauma could well
  • 00:17:40
    play a role in a significant number of
  • 00:17:42
    these conditions
  • 00:17:43
    absolutely and indeed
  • 00:17:46
    um
  • 00:17:47
    you know it's given a temperamental
  • 00:17:49
    issue that most people go into medicine
  • 00:17:53
    want to have clear answers and clear
  • 00:17:56
    paradigms and we go to medical school we
  • 00:18:00
    learned about all these diseases
  • 00:18:02
    and their diseases and we don't to start
  • 00:18:06
    talking about social context would make
  • 00:18:09
    it even more complicated so you don't
  • 00:18:11
    learn about it and actually right now I
  • 00:18:14
    was meeting with some old friends from
  • 00:18:16
    my medical school days is that we
  • 00:18:19
    oftentimes did Terrible Things to
  • 00:18:20
    patients and did not really understand
  • 00:18:23
    how terrified they were of let's say
  • 00:18:27
    white doctors and how they would be
  • 00:18:30
    neglected neglecting their physical care
  • 00:18:33
    because they were too terrified about
  • 00:18:35
    doctors to actually bring it up with
  • 00:18:37
    them and so uh yeah I'm very glad that
  • 00:18:41
    some people in some medical schools and
  • 00:18:43
    medical settings are beginning to pay
  • 00:18:45
    attention to it because the title of my
  • 00:18:47
    book the body keeps the score is not
  • 00:18:50
    just a cute title
  • 00:18:51
    actually that it affects your immune
  • 00:18:55
    system it affects your stress responses
  • 00:18:58
    and people who have long-term histories
  • 00:19:00
    oftentimes have multiple medical
  • 00:19:02
    problems you have to do with their body
  • 00:19:05
    they get stuck in uh fear fight and
  • 00:19:09
    flight
  • 00:19:10
    and so fibromyalgia is a very good
  • 00:19:13
    example fibrology is pretty much related
  • 00:19:17
    to trauma but it's so diffuse that like
  • 00:19:22
    I am friends with very old men who used
  • 00:19:26
    to the National Institute for
  • 00:19:27
    Rheumatology in America and they say so
  • 00:19:30
    do you guys study fibromyalgia he says
  • 00:19:32
    no how does a disease of crazy people
  • 00:19:34
    yeah and here's the guy who's the top
  • 00:19:37
    rheumatologist in America who just
  • 00:19:39
    dismisses this very complex and very
  • 00:19:42
    debilitating illness because the people
  • 00:19:45
    who have it are just too complex to deal
  • 00:19:48
    with and difficult and resistance yeah
  • 00:19:51
    and so get nice clean illnesses yeah Hey
  • 00:19:55
    listen I I'm I want to just pause on
  • 00:19:57
    this point because I think it's really
  • 00:19:59
    important first of all I do think
  • 00:20:02
    medicine
  • 00:20:03
    uh for all its benefits for all the
  • 00:20:06
    conditions that we do manage to help
  • 00:20:07
    with there's many conditions that we
  • 00:20:09
    don't do a very good job with and I
  • 00:20:11
    think we can be quite condescending as a
  • 00:20:14
    profession sometimes to certain
  • 00:20:16
    sufferers of certain conditions like
  • 00:20:18
    fibromyalgia because they don't fit in a
  • 00:20:20
    neat box that we can do oh this is the
  • 00:20:23
    problem this is the pill it's going to
  • 00:20:25
    get better and so I think doctors often
  • 00:20:28
    feel quite frustrated and Powerless as
  • 00:20:31
    well I don't think they're necessarily
  • 00:20:32
    wanting to be derogatory I think they
  • 00:20:34
    thought they were going to learn what
  • 00:20:36
    they needed to treat these patients and
  • 00:20:38
    then they're faced with people who keep
  • 00:20:40
    coming back and they don't know what to
  • 00:20:42
    do so I think that's one point I wanted
  • 00:20:44
    to raise absolutely you also mentioned
  • 00:20:47
    something that I think we should just
  • 00:20:48
    explore a little bit you said
  • 00:20:50
    fibromyalgia
  • 00:20:51
    it's a condition uh that that is I don't
  • 00:20:55
    know if you said often or always related
  • 00:20:57
    to trauma now I think we let's just
  • 00:20:59
    clarify what we mean there because there
  • 00:21:01
    will be people listening with
  • 00:21:02
    fibromyalgia this may be the very first
  • 00:21:04
    time they've heard it so can we just
  • 00:21:06
    just broaden that out a little bit so
  • 00:21:09
    that they can understand what you mean
  • 00:21:10
    by that
  • 00:21:12
    yeah
  • 00:21:13
    but you study fragment and you do a
  • 00:21:17
    trauma history on people you usually
  • 00:21:18
    find a severe trauma history usually
  • 00:21:21
    within the attachment system often not
  • 00:21:24
    feeling safe and
  • 00:21:26
    what happens I think is very much what
  • 00:21:28
    happens with all of us to some degree
  • 00:21:30
    when we come to be scared we become
  • 00:21:33
    uptight and we start physically becoming
  • 00:21:37
    defensive and hold on to ourselves and
  • 00:21:40
    that uptightness and trying to control
  • 00:21:44
    things made them uh eventually get
  • 00:21:47
    expressed as fibromyalgia but you become
  • 00:21:51
    a very anxious and currently upset
  • 00:21:52
    person and uh
  • 00:21:55
    the Hardesty for medicine is there is no
  • 00:21:58
    clear answer it's not like oh let's let
  • 00:22:01
    me give you a pill and you feel better
  • 00:22:03
    you really need to go through a whole
  • 00:22:04
    process uh that might very well involve
  • 00:22:08
    body oriented therapy maybe massages
  • 00:22:11
    maybe really working with bodily
  • 00:22:14
    reactions which of course in medicine we
  • 00:22:16
    never do uh that that really need much
  • 00:22:20
    more intervention that we are capable of
  • 00:22:22
    or that our systems allow us to
  • 00:22:24
    intervene with I know quite a few people
  • 00:22:26
    who have resources in America with
  • 00:22:29
    fibromyalgia who find the right people
  • 00:22:31
    to work with who know about bodily
  • 00:22:34
    reactions but they're very hard to find
  • 00:22:36
    yeah I would agree with I've seen many
  • 00:22:38
    patients with conditions like
  • 00:22:40
    fibromyalgia and and I found what can be
  • 00:22:42
    effective is when you take this
  • 00:22:44
    multi-pronged approach you do lots of
  • 00:22:46
    different things it's not just one thing
  • 00:22:47
    different patients will need different
  • 00:22:49
    things different things are going to
  • 00:22:50
    appeal to them but it's in my experience
  • 00:22:53
    at least Dr vandika can I appreciate
  • 00:22:55
    you've got vast amount of experience in
  • 00:22:57
    this area I have found that you just
  • 00:23:01
    have to experiment and you need to try
  • 00:23:03
    different things but I also would say
  • 00:23:05
    you know I would share with you that if
  • 00:23:08
    I think back to a lot of my patients who
  • 00:23:10
    I've seen in the past with fibromyalgia
  • 00:23:12
    when you explore deep enough yes it's
  • 00:23:16
    It's Not Unusual to find some history of
  • 00:23:19
    trauma there as well I would definitely
  • 00:23:21
    agree with that
  • 00:23:22
    see and then you say the right thing
  • 00:23:24
    here you need to be patient to try
  • 00:23:26
    multiple times but probably NHS
  • 00:23:30
    and our insurance system doesn't give us
  • 00:23:33
    the time to really explore these things
  • 00:23:35
    because I think all Physicians really
  • 00:23:38
    are on a video of pressure to alleviate
  • 00:23:41
    get rid of their patients and move on
  • 00:23:43
    and so these patients are time consuming
  • 00:23:46
    and require a team approach and our
  • 00:23:50
    assistance may not be prepared for that
  • 00:23:53
    yeah and then the next thing happens we
  • 00:23:56
    become frustrated and then we start
  • 00:23:59
    being mean and nasty to the people who
  • 00:24:02
    suffer for only aggravating their
  • 00:24:05
    condition and so I I think the places
  • 00:24:08
    start for us as caregivers is if we get
  • 00:24:11
    particularly mad at a particular person
  • 00:24:13
    or feel frustrated by a particular
  • 00:24:16
    person to really Mark that and say oh
  • 00:24:19
    this person is really driving me mad
  • 00:24:22
    let's see what's going on with the
  • 00:24:24
    patient that the patient makes me feel
  • 00:24:27
    so helpless so the natural sing then is
  • 00:24:31
    to become somewhat abusive with people
  • 00:24:33
    like that yeah because they make us feel
  • 00:24:37
    bad and they take our time and they they
  • 00:24:40
    don't follow the rules and so when when
  • 00:24:43
    you have people like that it's really
  • 00:24:44
    important for us to have our capacity to
  • 00:24:47
    step back with our colleagues and to
  • 00:24:49
    really reassess what's going on here
  • 00:24:52
    yeah is it so I think our own reactions
  • 00:24:55
    are a very important Bell weather of
  • 00:24:58
    whether we're dealing with a traumatized
  • 00:25:00
    person and I think as Physicians we have
  • 00:25:03
    an amazing capacity to help recreate
  • 00:25:06
    trauma for our patients
  • 00:25:07
    wow they hear that all the time for
  • 00:25:09
    people who go to Medical Systems you
  • 00:25:11
    know I know people who have breast
  • 00:25:13
    cancer and heart disease and they tell
  • 00:25:16
    me about the exquisitely good care they
  • 00:25:19
    got in our systems and how great the
  • 00:25:22
    nurses were and how great the doctors
  • 00:25:23
    were and then you deal with people with
  • 00:25:25
    trauma histories who have served these
  • 00:25:28
    unknown issues and they always tell us
  • 00:25:30
    tell me how terrible they get treated by
  • 00:25:34
    the system and I go yep that's what
  • 00:25:35
    happens yeah that's very very profound
  • 00:25:39
    because what we're saying is that
  • 00:25:43
    us the medical system Healthcare
  • 00:25:46
    professionals
  • 00:25:48
    as you just put it on re-traumatizing
  • 00:25:51
    patients who are already traumatized we
  • 00:25:54
    may not realize we're doing it but
  • 00:25:56
    because of the lack of understanding the
  • 00:25:58
    lack of knowledge the lack of time
  • 00:26:00
    those patients who were already
  • 00:26:02
    struggling
  • 00:26:03
    these are a lot of the time the ones who
  • 00:26:07
    they feel lost they don't know where to
  • 00:26:09
    go they're seeking out books or new
  • 00:26:12
    information just to see what can I do I
  • 00:26:15
    don't want to stay like this forever and
  • 00:26:17
    it's not just you know the conditions
  • 00:26:19
    you mentioned even a lot of people with
  • 00:26:20
    autoimmune illness you know I've I've
  • 00:26:22
    found that they also respond very well
  • 00:26:24
    to this kind of multi-pronged approach
  • 00:26:26
    um
  • 00:26:27
    I really want to get to
  • 00:26:29
    a central uh philosophy of your work
  • 00:26:32
    that I take from it at least which is
  • 00:26:34
    about the body keeping the score that's
  • 00:26:37
    the title of your book but this idea
  • 00:26:39
    that the body keeps a record of what has
  • 00:26:42
    happened and that one of the goals of
  • 00:26:44
    therapy is to help people feel safe in
  • 00:26:47
    their bodies yeah now I think a lot of
  • 00:26:50
    people may not understand what that
  • 00:26:52
    means what do you mean when you say we
  • 00:26:54
    need to feel safe in our bodies
  • 00:26:57
    well you know I think Darwin already
  • 00:27:00
    back in 1872
  • 00:27:02
    wrote a beautiful book in which she
  • 00:27:04
    talks about trauma actually he calls it
  • 00:27:06
    getting stuck in fight or flight or
  • 00:27:09
    stuck in avoidance and defensive
  • 00:27:11
    reactions which is not a bad definition
  • 00:27:13
    and he talks about how these experiences
  • 00:27:17
    are expressed in the course of the vagus
  • 00:27:20
    nerve he Darwin goes to pneumogastric
  • 00:27:23
    nerve back then and that you experience
  • 00:27:25
    your emotions as God wrenching and
  • 00:27:29
    heartbreaking physical Sensations
  • 00:27:32
    and I think we all are familiar with
  • 00:27:34
    that have been something hurtful happens
  • 00:27:37
    we do feel it in our chest and we feel
  • 00:27:39
    it in our bodies and so our bodies
  • 00:27:42
    respond to these things and when you get
  • 00:27:45
    traumatized that feeling of uh of
  • 00:27:48
    a gut venge and heartbreak really stays
  • 00:27:52
    with you and there's becomes you become
  • 00:27:54
    an intolerable person to yourself
  • 00:27:58
    [Music]
  • 00:27:59
    ring a bell with you because I you know
  • 00:28:02
    I I make it a point whenever I travel
  • 00:28:04
    and I go to a place where I don't know
  • 00:28:06
    the language I always ask in your
  • 00:28:08
    language to have a do they have a word
  • 00:28:10
    for gutwench and every language has a
  • 00:28:13
    word for it yeah it's a universal
  • 00:28:14
    response that you experience deep
  • 00:28:17
    disappointment and betrayal and fear in
  • 00:28:21
    your body yeah
  • 00:28:23
    I think people have experienced that if
  • 00:28:25
    anyone's ever been through heartbreak
  • 00:28:27
    before
  • 00:28:28
    they which we all have which yeah pretty
  • 00:28:31
    much everyone has been through on some
  • 00:28:32
    level you feel it
  • 00:28:34
    yeah in your hearts like you literally
  • 00:28:37
    can feel it the pain the discomfort
  • 00:28:39
    there so I think when we start thinking
  • 00:28:41
    about it it's like oh yeah that's in our
  • 00:28:43
    body like Something's Happened up here
  • 00:28:45
    in our mind we've perceived it a certain
  • 00:28:46
    way and then our body is expressing a
  • 00:28:48
    symptom of that so I think this is a
  • 00:28:52
    really good point to talk about
  • 00:28:54
    some of these practical things that
  • 00:28:56
    people can start doing to help
  • 00:28:59
    themselves I mean frankly the things
  • 00:29:01
    you're talking about are helpful for
  • 00:29:02
    anyone but can we start with yoga right
  • 00:29:05
    I know yoga is something you talk about
  • 00:29:07
    as a really fantastic way for many
  • 00:29:09
    people to start feeling that safety
  • 00:29:12
    within their bodies how did you come
  • 00:29:15
    across yoga and why do you think it's so
  • 00:29:18
    effective for so many people
  • 00:29:20
    well you know these things are usually
  • 00:29:24
    an issue of accidents that you happen to
  • 00:29:27
    meet somebody who does yoga and who says
  • 00:29:29
    come and do yoga class with me and then
  • 00:29:32
    you do that and then you feel that your
  • 00:29:35
    body feels calmer and your mind is more
  • 00:29:37
    focused afterwards you see all this
  • 00:29:39
    thing so actually so I went to Nationals
  • 00:29:42
    with mental health and got the money to
  • 00:29:45
    study yoga as a way of calming that body
  • 00:29:48
    down uh but now people say oh yoga is
  • 00:29:51
    treatment of choice I don't know maybe
  • 00:29:53
    some other people Qigong may be better
  • 00:29:56
    or Tai Chi or some other musical
  • 00:29:59
    practice has but for me going to yoga
  • 00:30:03
    was really a way of exploring to what
  • 00:30:06
    degree people can change their
  • 00:30:07
    relationship to their bodily Sensations
  • 00:30:09
    and yoga turned out to be very good for
  • 00:30:12
    that but certainly It's Not The Only Way
  • 00:30:14
    Studios still love to do someday is see
  • 00:30:18
    how Tango dancing works for time
  • 00:30:20
    theoretically
  • 00:30:22
    that would make a lot of sense as being
  • 00:30:24
    a really good time achieve it actually
  • 00:30:25
    and so so as and what I see all the time
  • 00:30:29
    is that the people who are in my life
  • 00:30:32
    who are traumatized they go and start
  • 00:30:34
    exploring different things that help
  • 00:30:37
    them
  • 00:30:38
    uh and uh some people find it let's say
  • 00:30:42
    acupuncture is very helpful other people
  • 00:30:45
    say it doesn't do his thing for me and
  • 00:30:46
    so we don't know precisely what is right
  • 00:30:49
    for whom but it's very important for us
  • 00:30:51
    to have an open mind about uh and you
  • 00:30:55
    need to have an open mind for yourself
  • 00:30:56
    also to really see what can help me to
  • 00:31:00
    feel alive in the body that they live in
  • 00:31:04
    to make sure you're taking action after
  • 00:31:06
    watching this video I have created a
  • 00:31:08
    free breathing guide that's going to
  • 00:31:10
    help you reduce stress calm your minds
  • 00:31:12
    and boost your energy in this guide I
  • 00:31:15
    share with you six really simple
  • 00:31:17
    breathing practices that work
  • 00:31:20
    immediately even just one minute a day
  • 00:31:23
    will start to make a big difference to
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    receive your free guides all you have to
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    description box below
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    so is that the commonality then you
  • 00:31:33
    mentioned a few things here let's say
  • 00:31:34
    yoga and Qigong for example
  • 00:31:37
    um you're saying that for many people
  • 00:31:40
    who are traumatized
  • 00:31:42
    they don't feel safe in their body they
  • 00:31:44
    don't experience everything that's
  • 00:31:46
    happening within their body they shut
  • 00:31:47
    down in certain ways and you're saying
  • 00:31:50
    one method that may work for some people
  • 00:31:53
    is through something like yoga or Qigong
  • 00:31:56
    or martial arts for example
  • 00:31:59
    um what is it that's going on you're
  • 00:32:01
    starting to connect to your body you're
  • 00:32:03
    starting to connect to your breath and
  • 00:32:04
    how do you put it what do you think may
  • 00:32:06
    be happening there that's helpful
  • 00:32:09
    what happens there is that you are stuck
  • 00:32:13
    in the stress response syndrome and for
  • 00:32:16
    example when you start breathing more
  • 00:32:18
    slowly and more deeply and you change
  • 00:32:21
    your breath you change your heart rate
  • 00:32:23
    variability which is a way of measuring
  • 00:32:25
    how the heart and the central nervous
  • 00:32:27
    system relate to each other and then you
  • 00:32:30
    get a sense of relief and openness once
  • 00:32:34
    you are able to do things that calm that
  • 00:32:36
    system down and so initially having
  • 00:32:40
    somebody work with your breath you go
  • 00:32:42
    like I don't want to do that and and
  • 00:32:44
    then if you learn to breathe much more
  • 00:32:46
    slowly and much more deeply you get a
  • 00:32:48
    sense of oh I feel calm I feel clear and
  • 00:32:51
    what you do actually at this point is
  • 00:32:54
    you open up some Pathways in the brain
  • 00:32:56
    between your parts of your frontal lobe
  • 00:33:00
    and your insula apart your brain that's
  • 00:33:03
    connected with your bodily Sensations
  • 00:33:05
    and you open up new Pathways of
  • 00:33:07
    self-experience basically yeah it's so
  • 00:33:10
    fascinating I know when I was reading
  • 00:33:13
    the section on treatment in your book
  • 00:33:16
    um after you wrote about what trauma is
  • 00:33:18
    he said when you're
  • 00:33:20
    starting to treat trauma there was one
  • 00:33:23
    part we spoke about this these four
  • 00:33:25
    things that need to happen one you need
  • 00:33:27
    to find a way to become common focused
  • 00:33:29
    two you need to be able to maintain that
  • 00:33:31
    calm in response to things and events
  • 00:33:34
    and people that trigger you to the Past
  • 00:33:36
    then the third thing I think was being
  • 00:33:39
    present you had to find a way of being
  • 00:33:41
    present in your life and with the people
  • 00:33:43
    in your life and then the fourth thing
  • 00:33:45
    there was you have to not keep secrets
  • 00:33:48
    from yourself now the reason I bring
  • 00:33:50
    that up there thank you that's I had
  • 00:33:53
    forgot there's four approaches yeah it
  • 00:33:55
    was it was it was really beautiful the
  • 00:33:57
    way you wrote about it in your book and
  • 00:34:00
    I think what you just said about yoga
  • 00:34:02
    there speaks to the first one there
  • 00:34:04
    which is number one you've got to find a
  • 00:34:06
    way to become calm and focused yeah so
  • 00:34:09
    for people who are traumatized if you're
  • 00:34:10
    stuck you won't go into certain parts of
  • 00:34:12
    their body who don't want to do certain
  • 00:34:14
    poses or positions because it doesn't
  • 00:34:16
    feel good it sounds as though what
  • 00:34:20
    you're saying is that when people can
  • 00:34:22
    find some sort of practice that helps
  • 00:34:24
    them feel safe in their body whether
  • 00:34:25
    it's yoga or something else
  • 00:34:27
    that it's gonna start to help them
  • 00:34:31
    experience what does calm feel like
  • 00:34:34
    because I guess many of these people
  • 00:34:35
    don't actually know what it feels like
  • 00:34:37
    to be calm even for just 10 or 15
  • 00:34:39
    minutes right I think that people mainly
  • 00:34:43
    learn is how to cut off their feelings
  • 00:34:47
    I said some many people learn to not
  • 00:34:50
    feel and of course Psychiatry is very
  • 00:34:53
    good at it also because like things like
  • 00:34:55
    Prozac makes you feel less
  • 00:34:58
    yeah and so you get less overwhelmed by
  • 00:35:01
    your feelings but by blunting your
  • 00:35:03
    feelings you also lose your capacity for
  • 00:35:06
    pleasure
  • 00:35:07
    and enjoyment yeah so so by a very
  • 00:35:11
    common adaptation to trauma is to just
  • 00:35:13
    shut yourself down and becoming that
  • 00:35:16
    uptight person that manages somehow to
  • 00:35:20
    make it through your day but uh it's in
  • 00:35:22
    order to recover you need to open up
  • 00:35:25
    these Pathways of self-experience and
  • 00:35:28
    that you need somebody who really gently
  • 00:35:31
    helps you to to reconnect with yourself
  • 00:35:33
    I think you published a study did you
  • 00:35:36
    know on yoga and PTSD from Recollections
  • 00:35:39
    three of them yeah yeah what do they
  • 00:35:41
    show
  • 00:35:42
    they showed us uh if you do yoga for
  • 00:35:45
    eight or twelve weeks that your PTSD
  • 00:35:48
    scores go down we did some newer Imaging
  • 00:35:51
    and we see some new linkages in the
  • 00:35:53
    brain coming online particularly having
  • 00:35:55
    to do with areas that brain have to do
  • 00:35:57
    with uh self-experience self sensory
  • 00:36:01
    experience and what the study showed is
  • 00:36:04
    that when people do yoga they are more
  • 00:36:07
    open uh to being with other people less
  • 00:36:10
    frightened of being with other people
  • 00:36:12
    and less afraid of themselves most of
  • 00:36:15
    all yeah wow very very powerful it's
  • 00:36:18
    interesting but I want to say it's
  • 00:36:20
    really then people say oh yoga is the
  • 00:36:23
    answer no yoga was a paradigm that
  • 00:36:26
    helped us to understand how engaging
  • 00:36:28
    with your body in a particular way is
  • 00:36:30
    helpful but it's not the final word on
  • 00:36:34
    the story yeah I love that I mean that
  • 00:36:36
    is speaking to my heart you're really
  • 00:36:38
    touching on I think one of the big
  • 00:36:40
    problems I see around and
  • 00:36:42
    today in terms of thinking about how we
  • 00:36:44
    treat people with chronic health
  • 00:36:45
    problems whether it's trauma or anything
  • 00:36:47
    else it's like what does that narrow
  • 00:36:50
    reductionist study show up oh great oh
  • 00:36:52
    it works and that's okay great that
  • 00:36:54
    means that's the treatment for every
  • 00:36:56
    patient and it's like if you see real
  • 00:36:59
    people with real problems you realize
  • 00:37:00
    that actually there's no one-size-fits
  • 00:37:02
    all like for someone that might be
  • 00:37:04
    brilliant but for someone else it may be
  • 00:37:07
    it isn't the right thing for them but I
  • 00:37:10
    feel like I I say this a few times on
  • 00:37:12
    the podcast I think science is important
  • 00:37:14
    it's very important
  • 00:37:16
    but I think we
  • 00:37:18
    make inferences and we draw conclusions
  • 00:37:21
    that we then think are applicable to all
  • 00:37:24
    whereas as you say that just simply
  • 00:37:26
    showed us that this Paradigm here
  • 00:37:29
    therapies like yoga which help us
  • 00:37:33
    experience our bodies more have the
  • 00:37:34
    potential to help so but you know in my
  • 00:37:37
    travels I meet a lot of people who claim
  • 00:37:39
    that they do amazing things by doing
  • 00:37:42
    let's say Equine Therapy working with
  • 00:37:45
    horses and I say interesting and so I
  • 00:37:50
    collect these people and on my website
  • 00:37:52
    the term Research Foundation website we
  • 00:37:54
    had these people talk about their
  • 00:37:56
    systems sometimes and then we do need
  • 00:37:59
    the evidence so that the next step is
  • 00:38:01
    always for me to say so let's help you
  • 00:38:05
    to do a study where we can really see
  • 00:38:07
    which is effective for it who it's not
  • 00:38:09
    effective for I think evidence is
  • 00:38:12
    terrible importance but but we've seen
  • 00:38:14
    our field oftentimes that we close the
  • 00:38:16
    Barn Door prematurely yeah we find it if
  • 00:38:20
    project Works some of the time for some
  • 00:38:22
    people say oh cheap project is treating
  • 00:38:24
    of choice no sometimes project works for
  • 00:38:27
    particular people let's see for whom
  • 00:38:29
    it's very person for whom it doesn't
  • 00:38:30
    work yeah I love that I think it's a
  • 00:38:33
    really nice way of putting it
  • 00:38:35
    um moving on to another therapy or I
  • 00:38:37
    know when I've heard you speak before
  • 00:38:38
    you talk about theater and movement you
  • 00:38:41
    put those two things together and I I
  • 00:38:43
    first of all I find it interesting that
  • 00:38:45
    you put theater and movement together
  • 00:38:46
    when you're when certainly what I heard
  • 00:38:48
    you talk about it but can you elaborate
  • 00:38:51
    a little bit on what's so powerful about
  • 00:38:54
    theater and movement and how it can help
  • 00:38:56
    people with trauma yeah I'd like to
  • 00:38:59
    tease this apart a little bit so the
  • 00:39:02
    movement issue is terribly important and
  • 00:39:04
    that's not really part of how we think
  • 00:39:06
    in psychologist Psychiatry or even
  • 00:39:09
    medicine but basically uh we express our
  • 00:39:13
    aliveness through the body the movements
  • 00:39:15
    we make and when you work with children
  • 00:39:18
    for example they explore their movement
  • 00:39:21
    and their relationship of how their body
  • 00:39:23
    affects the growth around them and how
  • 00:39:25
    the world of also affects their body and
  • 00:39:28
    many
  • 00:39:30
    hypothesis studies over the past 150
  • 00:39:33
    years show the term oftentimes is
  • 00:39:35
    related to physical immobility
  • 00:39:38
    when you get attacked by somebody it's
  • 00:39:42
    very important to activate your fight
  • 00:39:44
    flight system and to fight and to punch
  • 00:39:47
    back but at the core of much trauma is
  • 00:39:50
    people being unable to do something to
  • 00:39:53
    change the situation and so people go
  • 00:39:55
    into a
  • 00:39:57
    state of where the agency no longer
  • 00:40:00
    matters and so and some very good
  • 00:40:03
    studies in Neuroscience also you're the
  • 00:40:05
    doors but done some of that as long as
  • 00:40:08
    you can move in response to a really uh
  • 00:40:11
    challenging situation and do something
  • 00:40:13
    you're going to be all right headed at
  • 00:40:17
    the core of but make something dramatic
  • 00:40:19
    is oftentimes an inability to do
  • 00:40:22
    anything and many times there's people
  • 00:40:25
    as you again probably know as a
  • 00:40:27
    physician yourself tend to become very
  • 00:40:29
    passive and tend to sort of ask us for
  • 00:40:34
    pills and stuff to make their Fitness go
  • 00:40:36
    away but it becomes very hard for them
  • 00:40:38
    to do things and to activate their
  • 00:40:41
    bodies and so movements and doing
  • 00:40:45
    something that makes your body feel
  • 00:40:48
    alive and capable is a very important
  • 00:40:51
    part of being alive yeah I've heard you
  • 00:40:54
    speak previously about
  • 00:40:55
    hurricanes that have happened you know
  • 00:40:57
    big natural disasters and
  • 00:41:01
    you were speaking about the fact that
  • 00:41:03
    yes
  • 00:41:05
    a lot of people are affected you know
  • 00:41:07
    not big natural disaster has happened
  • 00:41:11
    but the fact that
  • 00:41:13
    people are coming together they're
  • 00:41:14
    helping others they're moving you were
  • 00:41:17
    saying that in many ways that helps them
  • 00:41:19
    to process the trauma can you speak to
  • 00:41:21
    that a little bit at all please yeah
  • 00:41:22
    exactly exactly that we are you know we
  • 00:41:26
    are an extremely resilient species you
  • 00:41:29
    know we are everywhere we have we're
  • 00:41:31
    almost as good as cockroaches like human
  • 00:41:33
    beings are very stressful it's just and
  • 00:41:36
    so we can adapt ourselves as long as
  • 00:41:39
    we're doing things with other people and
  • 00:41:41
    making things happen and we were we're
  • 00:41:43
    building very homophobic we're people
  • 00:41:46
    who do things and as long as you can do
  • 00:41:48
    something you get a sense of yep that
  • 00:41:51
    hurricane sucked and I really miss my
  • 00:41:52
    house and it's very terrible but my
  • 00:41:54
    friends came over and helped me to build
  • 00:41:56
    a house and wasn't it great that I was
  • 00:41:59
    able to
  • 00:42:00
    put a roof over my head again and help
  • 00:42:03
    people to get supplies Etc so doing
  • 00:42:07
    something to to uh to overcome your
  • 00:42:10
    helplessness is terribly important
  • 00:42:12
    actually
  • 00:42:13
    and and of course the medicine tends to
  • 00:42:15
    be very passive you have people go to a
  • 00:42:18
    doctor and they have to be compliant
  • 00:42:20
    with their doctor's orders I don't like
  • 00:42:22
    the word compliance very much because
  • 00:42:24
    people really need to own what they do
  • 00:42:26
    and experience what they do yeah a few
  • 00:42:28
    years ago I wrote a book on stress and
  • 00:42:30
    when I
  • 00:42:31
    um talking about stress to companies or
  • 00:42:35
    to people or groups of people one of the
  • 00:42:37
    things I often say is that
  • 00:42:39
    you've got to understand the stress
  • 00:42:41
    response on one level is preparing your
  • 00:42:43
    body to move right it's you know the
  • 00:42:47
    Predator The Lion The Tiger whatever it
  • 00:42:49
    it was
  • 00:42:50
    you're getting ready to move but if it's
  • 00:42:53
    your
  • 00:42:54
    if you're sat on your bottom and it's
  • 00:42:56
    your email inbox that's stressing you
  • 00:42:58
    out under your workload and the fact
  • 00:43:00
    that you're on Zooms for 10 hours in a
  • 00:43:02
    row
  • 00:43:03
    your body is is getting primed and ready
  • 00:43:05
    to move but because you're not moving
  • 00:43:07
    that it almost gets stuck and you're not
  • 00:43:10
    processing the stress energy that's
  • 00:43:12
    built up yeah do you think that's
  • 00:43:15
    accurate well I I think it's accurate I
  • 00:43:18
    think it's a very very important issue
  • 00:43:20
    in our current culture yeah we become
  • 00:43:23
    more and more virtual living a virtual
  • 00:43:26
    reality secluding you and me I really
  • 00:43:28
    enjoy talking with you but if you sat in
  • 00:43:30
    the same room together we would actually
  • 00:43:31
    have a relationship afterwards yeah we
  • 00:43:33
    don't really form this sort of bond the
  • 00:43:36
    ordinary form with other people by
  • 00:43:38
    interacting the way we do and I I think
  • 00:43:41
    it's a major challenge for us to uh to
  • 00:43:45
    really look at at the impact of that and
  • 00:43:48
    I think it's going to have a major
  • 00:43:50
    negative impact on us as human beings to
  • 00:43:53
    become to sitting on our butt and living
  • 00:43:55
    through a virtual reality and virtual
  • 00:43:58
    yeah with people it's it's a very big
  • 00:44:01
    issue I don't think we know very much
  • 00:44:03
    about it because it's relatively decent
  • 00:44:05
    phenomenon but it's something worthy of
  • 00:44:08
    a great deal of attention yeah it's
  • 00:44:10
    really interesting as I think about
  • 00:44:12
    your writings about trauma about
  • 00:44:15
    movements like yoga for example that can
  • 00:44:18
    help us feel safe in our bodies and then
  • 00:44:20
    what we're just talking about the stress
  • 00:44:22
    response and actually without Movement
  • 00:44:23
    we can't really discharge that energy
  • 00:44:26
    it's very hard
  • 00:44:28
    and I'll be thinking about this for a
  • 00:44:29
    few months now it's very hard to not
  • 00:44:31
    draw the conclusion
  • 00:44:33
    that movement
  • 00:44:36
    and exercise whatever you want to call
  • 00:44:37
    it
  • 00:44:38
    for many years has been talked about
  • 00:44:41
    through the lens of physical health and
  • 00:44:43
    I think we're now becoming more and more
  • 00:44:45
    aware that yes movement is very
  • 00:44:46
    important for our mental health as well
  • 00:44:48
    but I but actually think it goes beyond
  • 00:44:50
    that it feels to me as though if we're
  • 00:44:53
    not moving our bodies in a whole variety
  • 00:44:55
    of different ways
  • 00:44:57
    we can't actually Express and tap into
  • 00:45:01
    our full potential as a human being
  • 00:45:03
    right it's that important to who we are
  • 00:45:05
    I believe
  • 00:45:07
    yeah I I miss you on that that's
  • 00:45:10
    something uh that we get that sense of
  • 00:45:12
    pleasure
  • 00:45:13
    from being engaged with our body the
  • 00:45:16
    pleasure is very somatic response and I
  • 00:45:19
    think people don't talk much about
  • 00:45:21
    pleasure but I think pleasure is a very
  • 00:45:23
    important part of life you need to have
  • 00:45:25
    a sense of having a get together with a
  • 00:45:27
    friend oh like you did this weekend
  • 00:45:29
    numbers and you have arguments about
  • 00:45:31
    stuff and you move together and then you
  • 00:45:33
    get a feeling of wow life is worth
  • 00:45:36
    living because I really made that
  • 00:45:37
    connection with that person I distance
  • 00:45:39
    together with that person and the I I'm
  • 00:45:42
    very concerned about the virtual world
  • 00:45:45
    that we're moving into here in that
  • 00:45:47
    regard
  • 00:45:48
    let's talk about theater yeah I'm good
  • 00:45:53
    because we've mentioned you know yoga
  • 00:45:55
    then movements in terms of really
  • 00:45:57
    practical things that people can take
  • 00:45:59
    away from this conversation go oh I
  • 00:46:00
    wonder if this will work for me I wonder
  • 00:46:02
    if this is useful for someone in my life
  • 00:46:05
    theater and Shakespeare that I've heard
  • 00:46:08
    you talk about is fascinating so tell
  • 00:46:11
    tell us what's going on there what
  • 00:46:13
    what's you know what how can this be
  • 00:46:15
    helpful
  • 00:46:16
    well you know let's start and we've
  • 00:46:19
    development of the person hadn't
  • 00:46:20
    actually just spent some times with
  • 00:46:22
    grandkids and they're always playing
  • 00:46:23
    different roles and now I'm going to be
  • 00:46:26
    an astronaut and they try it out and now
  • 00:46:29
    I'm going to be a hunter and try it out
  • 00:46:31
    and that's how human beings learn uh
  • 00:46:35
    what it feels like in your body to have
  • 00:46:37
    different roles but struck me with
  • 00:46:40
    traumatized people is at some point that
  • 00:46:43
    identity becomes an identity of defeat I
  • 00:46:48
    used to be a warrior but now I cannot
  • 00:46:49
    move anymore I used to be a sexy woman
  • 00:46:52
    but now I'm frozen in my body uh or a
  • 00:46:56
    sexy man for that matter and and so
  • 00:46:58
    Thomas of fixates people in a particular
  • 00:47:01
    role in life of which has to do with
  • 00:47:04
    helplessness and uh when I look at my
  • 00:47:08
    kids and then we have this wonderful
  • 00:47:10
    theater in the area where I live called
  • 00:47:12
    Shakespeare in the court where uh where
  • 00:47:16
    they teach juvenile delinquents were all
  • 00:47:19
    of terrible trauma histories to
  • 00:47:21
    six people play Shakespeare roles and
  • 00:47:24
    they get to feel oh this is what it
  • 00:47:27
    feels like to be a king this is what it
  • 00:47:29
    feels like to feel powerful this but it
  • 00:47:31
    feels like to be a murderer and then you
  • 00:47:34
    get to on a visceral level uh experience
  • 00:47:38
    the very different
  • 00:47:40
    multi-modality of ourselves and we get
  • 00:47:43
    to really feel oh I can be powerful and
  • 00:47:46
    that's what it feels like but you cannot
  • 00:47:49
    be powerful until you actually hold it
  • 00:47:52
    in your body and so playing Macbeth
  • 00:47:57
    gives you a feeling oh that's what it
  • 00:47:59
    feels like to be a boring and nasty
  • 00:48:01
    person and then and you can play these
  • 00:48:04
    different roles and theater helps you to
  • 00:48:07
    really viscerally experience other ways
  • 00:48:09
    of moving in the world and you then you
  • 00:48:12
    ordinary habitual responses is it right
  • 00:48:14
    there where you live that juvenile
  • 00:48:16
    delinquents when they're up before the
  • 00:48:19
    judge they're often given the choice but
  • 00:48:21
    between you know jail time or detention
  • 00:48:25
    center time
  • 00:48:27
    and learning Shakespeare that's what's
  • 00:48:29
    actually happening
  • 00:48:31
    to act in a play it is doing you learn
  • 00:48:36
    sword fighting and that's a very very
  • 00:48:40
    complex thing to do is to learn to all
  • 00:48:42
    that sort of but when you do that you
  • 00:48:44
    feel like wow I can defend myself I
  • 00:48:47
    could really be a powerful person so you
  • 00:48:50
    need to have a visceral experience of
  • 00:48:52
    power and control that has been taken
  • 00:48:55
    away from you by your trauma are we
  • 00:48:57
    seeing that those kids then are
  • 00:48:58
    improving I mean can you tell us any
  • 00:49:00
    stories what's happened that the to
  • 00:49:02
    these kids because I think it sounds
  • 00:49:05
    I can believe that rationally it's you
  • 00:49:07
    know I think we we all know maybe we
  • 00:49:10
    don't think about it but if you stand up
  • 00:49:13
    tall with your chest puffed out exactly
  • 00:49:16
    you feel completely differently you feel
  • 00:49:18
    powerful and strong and if you roll your
  • 00:49:21
    shoulders and compress your ribs you
  • 00:49:23
    yeah you feel a bit insecure and you
  • 00:49:27
    know I think we can get that so it
  • 00:49:28
    totally makes sense to me that as you
  • 00:49:31
    said a lot of people who are traumatized
  • 00:49:32
    get stuck they get stuck
  • 00:49:35
    in I guess certain body positions as
  • 00:49:37
    well right yes absolutely yeah body
  • 00:49:39
    positions of
  • 00:49:41
    of defensiveness of collapse uh and and
  • 00:49:47
    the way you hold your body and you put
  • 00:49:50
    it very well because the research shows
  • 00:49:52
    social exactly what you say is that when
  • 00:49:55
    you put yourself in a position of let's
  • 00:49:56
    say there's a body position uh that
  • 00:49:59
    denotes Joy every culture in the world
  • 00:50:02
    you raise your hands you open your mouth
  • 00:50:04
    you open your rib cage and when you
  • 00:50:07
    freeze people in a bodily position of
  • 00:50:09
    joy and you say to them now I want you
  • 00:50:12
    to be angry they say I can't be angry as
  • 00:50:16
    long as it stands like this because in
  • 00:50:17
    order to be angry and there's steps like
  • 00:50:19
    that yeah and so it's really important
  • 00:50:22
    to to honor that piece of knowledge by
  • 00:50:26
    helping people to experience different
  • 00:50:28
    states of being by the way you hold your
  • 00:50:31
    body so on that then what happens like
  • 00:50:36
    you know I love the idea that around the
  • 00:50:38
    world uh people you know juveniles who
  • 00:50:41
    have committed crimes who've been
  • 00:50:43
    traumatized are offered this or other
  • 00:50:46
    modalities as a way of rehabilitating
  • 00:50:48
    themselves experiencing different
  • 00:50:50
    feelings and Sensations like how did it
  • 00:50:53
    get to the point where
  • 00:50:55
    the judge is now saying this I mean was
  • 00:50:58
    were trials done was there you know
  • 00:51:01
    growing evidence space what happened to
  • 00:51:03
    make that a reality because that sounds
  • 00:51:05
    really quite profound these things
  • 00:51:07
    always start
  • 00:51:09
    with individuals who are charismatic who
  • 00:51:12
    convince some other people to work with
  • 00:51:14
    them on something yeah so we always this
  • 00:51:17
    always starts before there's evidence
  • 00:51:20
    and I see this all over the world that
  • 00:51:23
    wherever I've gone I see amazing
  • 00:51:25
    programs done by charismatic and
  • 00:51:27
    individuals but then when the
  • 00:51:29
    charismatic individual dies it becomes
  • 00:51:31
    old it does something else the programs
  • 00:51:33
    die yeah and so but I'm very much in
  • 00:51:36
    favor of and trying to promote is when
  • 00:51:39
    you have this good method then we do the
  • 00:51:41
    research and we make it evidence-based
  • 00:51:43
    but for example I've never been able to
  • 00:51:46
    get money to do a Tango study I've never
  • 00:51:49
    gotten the money to uh see what Coral
  • 00:51:53
    singing does for people but I have a
  • 00:51:55
    friend in Russia we studied choral
  • 00:51:56
    singing yeah and showed was a change how
  • 00:51:59
    it changes the brain but as long as
  • 00:52:01
    you're Frozen in that feed that disorder
  • 00:52:05
    the singing and theater and yoga and all
  • 00:52:09
    kinds of other things may not cross your
  • 00:52:11
    mind as being effective say oh there's
  • 00:52:13
    there's woozy and so I'm very much in
  • 00:52:15
    favor of people actually studying a
  • 00:52:18
    whole bunch of different things and see
  • 00:52:20
    how effective it is yeah it's it's it's
  • 00:52:22
    kind of what you're saying before about
  • 00:52:24
    you may hear someone saying that Equine
  • 00:52:26
    Therapy is working for this group of
  • 00:52:28
    patients so you're going okay that's
  • 00:52:29
    interesting so you start off open-minded
  • 00:52:31
    you believe people and go okay that's
  • 00:52:33
    interesting let's now study that let's
  • 00:52:36
    let's and I think that's what the
  • 00:52:38
    scientific method should be really good
  • 00:52:40
    for is like we we listen to humans and
  • 00:52:43
    real people who are experiencing things
  • 00:52:46
    and a set of poo pooing it going isn't
  • 00:52:49
    that interesting why don't we try and
  • 00:52:51
    get some real scientific validity behind
  • 00:52:53
    that so we can expand it out I think
  • 00:52:55
    that's a really beautiful approach to
  • 00:52:57
    take that would help so many more people
  • 00:53:00
    it's a paradigm issue and so right now
  • 00:53:04
    if you're a psychiatrist or an other
  • 00:53:06
    medical person and you start talking
  • 00:53:08
    about theater your colleagues will go
  • 00:53:10
    he's gone off to deep end
  • 00:53:12
    it's amazing how many people how many
  • 00:53:15
    times my colleague who said oh he used
  • 00:53:17
    to be quite good but now he's studying
  • 00:53:19
    in yoga so he's gone off the deep end uh
  • 00:53:22
    oh he used to be good but he's now
  • 00:53:23
    studying EMDR his crazy masturbate your
  • 00:53:26
    familiar oh he has the gun off the d-pad
  • 00:53:28
    I've been accused of having gone off the
  • 00:53:30
    d-pad so many times by academic career
  • 00:53:32
    and so most people are
  • 00:53:35
    most academicians want to be respectable
  • 00:53:37
    and get money for their research and if
  • 00:53:40
    you go this route it's not very likely
  • 00:53:43
    that you'll get lots of financial
  • 00:53:45
    support on an individual level how did
  • 00:53:49
    you cope with that kind of criticism
  • 00:53:52
    because a lot of things you're talking
  • 00:53:53
    about
  • 00:53:55
    are certainly things that are not
  • 00:53:57
    conventionally taught to Western Medical
  • 00:53:59
    Doctors but how was it for you as a
  • 00:54:02
    respected academic clinician when you
  • 00:54:05
    started getting this pushback well I
  • 00:54:07
    used to be a respected academic
  • 00:54:09
    clinicians but I studied drugs I did the
  • 00:54:12
    first started some Prozac and Zoloft and
  • 00:54:15
    at that time
  • 00:54:16
    my star was high but once you started
  • 00:54:19
    doing other things uh but you know
  • 00:54:22
    that's a character logical issue I'm
  • 00:54:25
    just a guy who is curious who likes to
  • 00:54:29
    explore new things and so
  • 00:54:32
    respectability was not my most important
  • 00:54:35
    thing in my life and so characters
  • 00:54:39
    Destiny and so I'm a person who likes to
  • 00:54:42
    explore many different things I'm a
  • 00:54:43
    person who speaks several different
  • 00:54:45
    languages and so I can think in
  • 00:54:47
    different paradigms and so that made it
  • 00:54:50
    possible for me to look at different
  • 00:54:52
    options uh and that's just the question
  • 00:54:55
    of character Yeah Yeah you mentioned
  • 00:54:59
    EMDR EMDR of course is another therapy
  • 00:55:02
    that I've heard you speak about that can
  • 00:55:05
    be helpful for certain people with with
  • 00:55:08
    trauma uh what is the MDR and can you
  • 00:55:12
    explain a little bit about your
  • 00:55:13
    experience with it you know when did you
  • 00:55:15
    find out about it what can it be helpful
  • 00:55:17
    for how do people do it they do it
  • 00:55:19
    themselves with a therapist maybe speak
  • 00:55:22
    to EMDR a little bit please
  • 00:55:24
    look EMDR is indeed a very strange
  • 00:55:27
    treatment where you call ask people to
  • 00:55:29
    call up the stuff that really bothers
  • 00:55:32
    them but not to talk about it to just
  • 00:55:35
    say remember what you saw remember we
  • 00:55:38
    just felt in your body remember what he
  • 00:55:41
    was thinking back then so become aware
  • 00:55:44
    of that and then you ask people so stay
  • 00:55:47
    there and you ask people to you move
  • 00:55:50
    your fingers in front of people's eyes
  • 00:55:51
    from side to side and you say just
  • 00:55:54
    follow my fingers now if there was a
  • 00:55:56
    crazy treatment that's a crazy treatment
  • 00:55:58
    so my and everybody else first reaction
  • 00:56:01
    is like that's bizarre don't listen to
  • 00:56:04
    that stuff and then some of my own
  • 00:56:06
    patience where it works with start
  • 00:56:08
    coming back and says I did an EMDR and I
  • 00:56:11
    see profound transfer informations and
  • 00:56:13
    some of my colleagues are doing it and
  • 00:56:15
    they showed me their video tapes and I
  • 00:56:17
    go that's a dramatic change and so I see
  • 00:56:21
    my patients I see the videos of my
  • 00:56:23
    colleagues I say this clearly changes
  • 00:56:26
    the brain in very profound ways and
  • 00:56:29
    being sort of a neuroscientist uh
  • 00:56:31
    oriented person I was became fascinated
  • 00:56:34
    by studying what does eye movements do
  • 00:56:37
    to the brain it took us 15 years to get
  • 00:56:40
    enough money together to begin to do
  • 00:56:42
    that study but it started off by doing a
  • 00:56:45
    simple study comparing EMDR with Prozac
  • 00:56:49
    and it turned out that these eye
  • 00:56:51
    movements caused a very significant
  • 00:56:53
    change in most people and so that was
  • 00:56:57
    the first time I studied a method that
  • 00:57:00
    didn't fit in with the Western Paradigm
  • 00:57:02
    and the Western Paradigm is you yak or
  • 00:57:06
    you take a drug
  • 00:57:07
    and now you did something else and then
  • 00:57:10
    from EMDR I learned that things that
  • 00:57:13
    don't fit it's in our cultural Paradigm
  • 00:57:15
    may work and certain some other people
  • 00:57:18
    say tapping acupressure points may be
  • 00:57:21
    helpful and they say what's the evidence
  • 00:57:23
    for that there is no evidence for that
  • 00:57:25
    and maybe study it and it turns indeed
  • 00:57:27
    turns out that tapping these Chinese
  • 00:57:29
    acupuncture Parts indeed seems to have
  • 00:57:31
    an effect on people's physiological
  • 00:57:33
    arousal and so uh but EMDR was
  • 00:57:37
    particularly important here for me both
  • 00:57:40
    because it was my first foray into
  • 00:57:43
    something that didn't fit for the
  • 00:57:44
    Paradigm and our results were
  • 00:57:46
    extraordinary that we had a
  • 00:57:49
    sixty percent cure rate with EMDR in a
  • 00:57:54
    trauma sample now nobody's ever received
  • 00:57:56
    60 cure let all the symptoms were gone
  • 00:57:59
    and I think because it's so strange it
  • 00:58:03
    doesn't fit with our paradigms uh many
  • 00:58:06
    people tend to still poo poo it even
  • 00:58:08
    though the evidence how well it works is
  • 00:58:10
    very clear but
  • 00:58:13
    so uh
  • 00:58:15
    so e and Dr helps you to actually
  • 00:58:18
    neutralize the memory her part of being
  • 00:58:21
    traumatized is that certain
  • 00:58:23
    remembrances certain events freak you
  • 00:58:26
    out to make you obsess and but EMDR
  • 00:58:28
    specifically does is there's particular
  • 00:58:31
    triggers to passive as get get calmed
  • 00:58:34
    down and you no longer get freaked out
  • 00:58:38
    by the memory of particular Thomas
  • 00:58:40
    uh and then people have a message and
  • 00:58:43
    then they say oh let's use it for
  • 00:58:45
    children who are chronically uh abused
  • 00:58:49
    and orphanages I said no that's probably
  • 00:58:51
    not the right treatment for them so so
  • 00:58:53
    it's important to also know for whom it
  • 00:58:57
    works and for whom it doesn't work and
  • 00:58:59
    what we showed in our research is that
  • 00:59:02
    people with long-standing histories of
  • 00:59:04
    child abuse it didn't work all that well
  • 00:59:07
    for them at least in the way that we did
  • 00:59:09
    it yeah
  • 00:59:10
    you know in your book which I think was
  • 00:59:12
    it published in 2014 for the first time
  • 00:59:14
    yeah it first came out 2014 yeah 2014
  • 00:59:17
    right and I've got the page up in front
  • 00:59:19
    of me while we don't yet know precisely
  • 00:59:21
    how EMDR works the same is true of
  • 00:59:24
    Prozac sorry since interrupt if you are
  • 00:59:27
    enjoying this content there's loads more
  • 00:59:29
    just like it on my channel so please do
  • 00:59:31
    take a moment to press subscribe hit the
  • 00:59:33
    notification Bell and now back to the
  • 00:59:36
    conversation and it's it's a very
  • 00:59:38
    powerful paragraph that at the end of
  • 00:59:40
    chapter 15
  • 00:59:42
    um whereas that was you know what eight
  • 00:59:45
    nine years ago now when you wrote that
  • 00:59:46
    so certainly when it was published you
  • 00:59:48
    probably read it 10 11 years ago that
  • 00:59:49
    section
  • 00:59:51
    um do we now know how EMDR Works
  • 00:59:54
    compared to when you actually wrote that
  • 00:59:56
    book yes we so my colleague Serene
  • 01:00:01
    herzarian and ruslanias and I did a
  • 01:00:04
    study uh where we put people on the
  • 01:00:06
    scanner and made and you saw that it
  • 01:00:09
    activates certain circuitry in the brain
  • 01:00:12
    and the circuitry in the brain that
  • 01:00:14
    particularly activates a Sicilians
  • 01:00:17
    Network the part of your brain that
  • 01:00:19
    determines whether something is relevant
  • 01:00:22
    or not and so but if you see with the
  • 01:00:24
    people who lie in the scanner is that
  • 01:00:27
    their their brain organizes the
  • 01:00:29
    experience in a different way by
  • 01:00:31
    creating new circuits of experience
  • 01:00:34
    yeah and so it is not about
  • 01:00:36
    understanding or Insight you just sort
  • 01:00:38
    of tweaked the brain circuits in a way
  • 01:00:41
    that helps you to not be overwhelmed by
  • 01:00:43
    it you don't get raises but it becomes a
  • 01:00:45
    memory yeah so so a traumatic experience
  • 01:00:49
    is not a memory because the moment you
  • 01:00:51
    go there you relive it and that's the
  • 01:00:55
    nature of traumatic stuff and if if you
  • 01:00:57
    have been raped you get really upset
  • 01:00:59
    thinking or talking about your Vape but
  • 01:01:02
    it is not a memory of something
  • 01:01:03
    belonging to the Past it's a you're
  • 01:01:06
    currently right now
  • 01:01:08
    recreate the physiological state of that
  • 01:01:12
    past event and what EMDR and to some
  • 01:01:16
    degree yoga and neurofeedback and our
  • 01:01:18
    psychedelics all seem to help us to do
  • 01:01:21
    is to go there and to reorganize our
  • 01:01:25
    perception of it and and become aware on
  • 01:01:29
    a very deep level of this happened to me
  • 01:01:31
    back then it's not happening right now
  • 01:01:34
    and so are some circuits in the brains
  • 01:01:36
    change that allow you to put it in the
  • 01:01:39
    past to say yes it happens it's awful
  • 01:01:42
    but I'm not feeling it today yeah yeah
  • 01:01:45
    very clear very clear thank you
  • 01:01:48
    um would you say EMDR should always be
  • 01:01:50
    done with a therapist and the follow-up
  • 01:01:53
    from that is there's a lot of what are
  • 01:01:55
    called EMDR music tracks available now
  • 01:01:58
    on streaming platforms which I know
  • 01:02:00
    people like listening to I don't know if
  • 01:02:03
    you have any experience of the music
  • 01:02:05
    what it might do for people
  • 01:02:07
    is that something quite different from
  • 01:02:09
    what you're talking about in terms of
  • 01:02:10
    seeing a seeing an EMDR therapist to
  • 01:02:12
    take you through that process I wonder
  • 01:02:14
    if you can speak to that a little bit
  • 01:02:15
    please
  • 01:02:16
    interesting actually I cannot speak
  • 01:02:18
    about it because I've not studied that
  • 01:02:20
    and see I'm so
  • 01:02:23
    aware that time is about shame and about
  • 01:02:27
    being disconnected for other people that
  • 01:02:29
    I actually love the work of joining
  • 01:02:33
    somebody and yeah helping me to deal
  • 01:02:36
    with it in the context of a relationship
  • 01:02:38
    with somebody with whom you no longer
  • 01:02:41
    are ashamed about what happened to you
  • 01:02:43
    so I'm not really a fan of mechanical
  • 01:02:45
    devices because a lot of recovery from
  • 01:02:49
    trauma is to re-establish Your Capacity
  • 01:02:52
    connected to people around you and uh
  • 01:02:55
    but that's that's my particular
  • 01:02:57
    Prejudice in a way yeah I probably would
  • 01:03:00
    have that slight bias as well in general
  • 01:03:03
    and I do want to get to psychedelics and
  • 01:03:07
    neurofeedback that you just mentioned
  • 01:03:08
    but just to sort of close that Loop a
  • 01:03:11
    little bit
  • 01:03:12
    yoga which we started off talking about
  • 01:03:15
    when we're talking about the the sort of
  • 01:03:17
    things that people can do to heal from
  • 01:03:19
    trauma
  • 01:03:21
    I guess you would encourage people to do
  • 01:03:22
    yoga
  • 01:03:24
    as part of a group rather than by
  • 01:03:27
    yourself on YouTube right
  • 01:03:31
    yeah absolutely I'm really impressed I'm
  • 01:03:35
    not a natural yoga person but if I'm a
  • 01:03:39
    group of other people who are much more
  • 01:03:41
    limber than I am and do much better job
  • 01:03:44
    now I sort of absorb their limberedness
  • 01:03:47
    and I enjoy doing it with other people
  • 01:03:50
    um I think that's true for many things a
  • 01:03:53
    psychedelic therapies also these days we
  • 01:03:55
    sometimes do psychedelics in groups and
  • 01:03:58
    I like it a lot because you experience
  • 01:04:01
    this I have one particular experience
  • 01:04:03
    and you have a different experience and
  • 01:04:05
    then you really get to see that I'm part
  • 01:04:07
    of mankind and I'm holding something
  • 01:04:10
    that we all hold in different ways and I
  • 01:04:13
    think the feeling of emotional isolation
  • 01:04:16
    or the word I used in the previous book
  • 01:04:19
    a lot not in this one is the the feeling
  • 01:04:22
    of being God forsaken is very important
  • 01:04:25
    part of trauma so I I think doing it in
  • 01:04:27
    groups of other people uh as a dimension
  • 01:04:31
    of humanity to the whole thing yeah and
  • 01:04:34
    just before we get to neurofeedback just
  • 01:04:36
    on that point
  • 01:04:38
    talking about the Western Medical system
  • 01:04:40
    and how it's set up
  • 01:04:42
    it's very individualistic you know we
  • 01:04:44
    see a patient in isolation we say this
  • 01:04:47
    is what's wrong with you and this is
  • 01:04:49
    what you need to do and I touched on
  • 01:04:52
    this in my last book a little bit that
  • 01:04:54
    maybe we've got the whole setup
  • 01:04:56
    wrong for certain people because there's
  • 01:04:59
    a movement in the UK called social
  • 01:05:01
    prescribing that's growing massively
  • 01:05:03
    where people are healing in communities
  • 01:05:07
    they're they're going to let's say
  • 01:05:09
    cooking classes or reading things or you
  • 01:05:12
    know there's something called park run
  • 01:05:13
    in the UK where people go
  • 01:05:15
    every every Saturday morning in all the
  • 01:05:17
    villages and towns you know maybe 50 100
  • 01:05:19
    300 people get together and they
  • 01:05:22
    complete 5K together some walk some run
  • 01:05:25
    but it's a very Community
  • 01:05:26
    orientated environment people are
  • 01:05:29
    healing in communities not in isolation
  • 01:05:32
    which I think really speaks to what
  • 01:05:33
    you're talking about we're all watching
  • 01:05:36
    the British baking show around the world
  • 01:05:39
    of people cooking together making food
  • 01:05:41
    together and
  • 01:05:43
    it's interesting this point so when Tom
  • 01:05:48
    was sort of reinvented or rediscovered
  • 01:05:50
    I'd like to say Boston versus trial mode
  • 01:05:53
    Vienna wants what's the music and we had
  • 01:05:56
    a group of people in Boston like do the
  • 01:05:58
    Herman you know new burger and turkey
  • 01:05:59
    another people who all were into deeply
  • 01:06:02
    into town where you talk to each other
  • 01:06:03
    and our initial treatment was always
  • 01:06:06
    group treatments because we didn't know
  • 01:06:09
    what it had been like to be raped or to
  • 01:06:11
    be Marine in Iraq or Afghanistan but
  • 01:06:15
    they did and so we founded getting
  • 01:06:18
    people in a group who really have been
  • 01:06:20
    there decreased people's shame and also
  • 01:06:24
    gave a lot of recognition to people it
  • 01:06:26
    is actually quite horrifying to me how
  • 01:06:29
    group treatment has sort of become a
  • 01:06:32
    very tertiary treatment of course in the
  • 01:06:35
    addiction community group treatment and
  • 01:06:38
    self-step programs is still Central and
  • 01:06:41
    the sense of community of people who
  • 01:06:43
    have had similar experiences is terribly
  • 01:06:45
    important and and I'm actually sort of
  • 01:06:49
    pushing people to go back to do much for
  • 01:06:52
    group treatment where if let's say you
  • 01:06:55
    have been molested and you deal with it
  • 01:06:57
    by cutting yourself
  • 01:06:59
    it's shameful to cut yourself but when
  • 01:07:02
    you're a group of other people say no
  • 01:07:04
    but I get really upset I cut myself or I
  • 01:07:06
    I put a burning cigarette out of my arm
  • 01:07:10
    uh you don't go other people don't got
  • 01:07:12
    it you should never do that you're gonna
  • 01:07:14
    like oh yeah I cope it's in the same way
  • 01:07:18
    and I also feel very embarrassed about
  • 01:07:19
    it but what does it do for you it
  • 01:07:22
    actually helps you when I do that yeah
  • 01:07:23
    so you meet you have the potential of
  • 01:07:26
    meeting people who are in much more
  • 01:07:28
    understanding about what you go through
  • 01:07:29
    then somebody who's gone to medical
  • 01:07:32
    school yeah no 100 and they can all help
  • 01:07:35
    each other of course probably in a much
  • 01:07:37
    more powerful way than a doctor or
  • 01:07:40
    Healthcare professional who's never
  • 01:07:41
    experienced that
  • 01:07:43
    um neurofeedback what is it I know you
  • 01:07:46
    think it's or you've shown that it's a
  • 01:07:48
    it's a powerful therapy potentially for
  • 01:07:51
    people suffering from trauma can you
  • 01:07:54
    explain what exactly it is does it help
  • 01:07:56
    us rewire our brain who is it helpful
  • 01:07:58
    for all kinds of things like this so
  • 01:08:01
    neurofeedback is a method that you can
  • 01:08:04
    put electrodes on people's skulls and
  • 01:08:07
    our technology is good enough right now
  • 01:08:09
    that despite the fact that the skull is
  • 01:08:11
    quite sick you can actually Harvest
  • 01:08:13
    these electrical brain wastes that are
  • 01:08:15
    on the Nissan skull and by putting a
  • 01:08:17
    number of electrodes on people's heads
  • 01:08:19
    you can project the brain's electrical
  • 01:08:22
    if the activity on a computer screen and
  • 01:08:25
    you can sort of see what part of the
  • 01:08:27
    brain is talking to what part of the
  • 01:08:29
    brain and what is most active and what's
  • 01:08:31
    most inactive and we have pretty good
  • 01:08:33
    ideas about uh what sort of electrical
  • 01:08:37
    activity helps with optimal functioning
  • 01:08:40
    and oftentimes when we do this what's
  • 01:08:42
    called quantitative eegs on termites
  • 01:08:45
    people my reaction is oh my God how can
  • 01:08:49
    you have a life for yourself because
  • 01:08:50
    your brain is really messed I don't say
  • 01:08:52
    it to people but you see some very
  • 01:08:55
    serious disconnection between different
  • 01:08:57
    parts of the brain which people think
  • 01:08:59
    can and sometimes compensate for but by
  • 01:09:02
    having a map of debate you can say okay
  • 01:09:05
    we can now play computer games with your
  • 01:09:07
    own brain waves where whenever you bring
  • 01:09:10
    creates a sort of brain connections that
  • 01:09:13
    are good for you uh a little color
  • 01:09:16
    changes or some music changes so you you
  • 01:09:18
    play back feedback to people's brains of
  • 01:09:22
    that's good and if you don't make the
  • 01:09:24
    right brain forms and certain forms that
  • 01:09:27
    uh make you angry or hyper aroused you
  • 01:09:30
    don't get feedback so you can sort of
  • 01:09:32
    subtly give people a little sensory
  • 01:09:35
    feedback through sounds and images of
  • 01:09:38
    yeah make more of that so you can train
  • 01:09:40
    the brain to make different connections
  • 01:09:42
    it's not the trauma treatment it's a
  • 01:09:45
    brain organization treatment I'm
  • 01:09:48
    astounded that this is not done more
  • 01:09:51
    widely and more often because it makes a
  • 01:09:54
    lot of sense
  • 01:09:55
    uh from a scientific point of view is
  • 01:09:58
    that you can actually uh visualize these
  • 01:10:01
    things and you can actually sort of
  • 01:10:02
    nudge the brain to organize itself in a
  • 01:10:05
    different way and so what's been
  • 01:10:07
    stunning to me is that uh there's a guy
  • 01:10:11
    in London uh John kruzelier who has done
  • 01:10:14
    good research uh some people in Belgium
  • 01:10:17
    uh some people in Germany and Ruth
  • 01:10:20
    lanius and we are among the few people
  • 01:10:22
    actually have studied this brain
  • 01:10:24
    computer interface methods and I think
  • 01:10:27
    it's enormously powerful and uh we have
  • 01:10:31
    done studies with kids who are just
  • 01:10:33
    completely off the wall unable to go to
  • 01:10:36
    school unable to to learn and we can
  • 01:10:39
    calm their brains down so they can
  • 01:10:40
    actually focus and not get out of
  • 01:10:42
    control so this can be for many of us
  • 01:10:45
    with depression anxiety chronic stress
  • 01:10:48
    kids who feel out of control it's just a
  • 01:10:51
    way of
  • 01:10:52
    harmonizing yourself a little bit with
  • 01:10:54
    your brain right yeah right and I you
  • 01:10:58
    know my dream is that every school in
  • 01:11:00
    America has a newer feedback
  • 01:11:03
    system and a neurof capacity so when
  • 01:11:05
    kids come to school and they're just off
  • 01:11:08
    the wall and terrified and angry because
  • 01:11:10
    they have all these experiences they
  • 01:11:12
    have just had at home that you can help
  • 01:11:14
    these kids to calm their brains down so
  • 01:11:17
    they can actually learn and get along
  • 01:11:19
    with other kids
  • 01:11:21
    yeah I wish every Medical Clinic had
  • 01:11:23
    neurofeedback it is such a nice simple
  • 01:11:26
    way of just helping you to smooth out
  • 01:11:30
    your brain functioning yeah I like you
  • 01:11:33
    I'm a fan of people healing with others
  • 01:11:36
    in real life you know I get it there's a
  • 01:11:39
    lot of Great Tech out there to help but
  • 01:11:41
    I think we've got to be not too reliant
  • 01:11:43
    on that web hustle make sure we're
  • 01:11:45
    experiencing things in the real world
  • 01:11:46
    but there are some apps I think now
  • 01:11:49
    where they help with things like
  • 01:11:51
    coherent breathing and you can you know
  • 01:11:54
    they can help you harmonize various
  • 01:11:56
    parts of your body and your brain
  • 01:11:58
    through different methods so I think
  • 01:12:01
    technology is going to potentially
  • 01:12:02
    revolutionize this have you experienced
  • 01:12:04
    that as well have you come across apps
  • 01:12:06
    like that oh absolutely and I know those
  • 01:12:09
    apps and actually have those apps on my
  • 01:12:10
    phone
  • 01:12:11
    well I'm also impressed with is how I
  • 01:12:15
    don't use them
  • 01:12:16
    even though
  • 01:12:18
    I know how helpful they could be and
  • 01:12:21
    sometimes I do get a little unfocused or
  • 01:12:24
    whatever and I know and but I'm
  • 01:12:27
    impressed with is that if a feds of my
  • 01:12:29
    Cosby are you going to come to this
  • 01:12:31
    class or you're going to go for a walk
  • 01:12:32
    then that's rewarding enough for me and
  • 01:12:35
    I will actually do it but apps in and of
  • 01:12:39
    themselves
  • 01:12:40
    most people just don't love their
  • 01:12:42
    absence to say let me just as I said
  • 01:12:45
    it's an interpersonal process it's still
  • 01:12:49
    very rewarding yeah so so doing it in a
  • 01:12:53
    group of people who say where were you
  • 01:12:55
    last night when we did this uh uh that's
  • 01:12:59
    who we are assuming yeah do you know
  • 01:13:01
    what's really interesting Dr Savannah
  • 01:13:02
    Cook is if I
  • 01:13:04
    this is not relating to trauma at all
  • 01:13:06
    but a few months ago
  • 01:13:08
    I spoke to this chap called Elliot
  • 01:13:10
    kipchogee on this podcast the Kenyan
  • 01:13:14
    marathon runner the only person to have
  • 01:13:16
    ever run under two hours in a marathon
  • 01:13:18
    he's considered the fastest marathon
  • 01:13:20
    runner of all time and you know it was a
  • 01:13:23
    beautiful conversation with him about
  • 01:13:24
    all kinds of things and one thing he
  • 01:13:27
    said well many things but one particular
  • 01:13:29
    thing really struck me he never trains
  • 01:13:33
    alone ever he never goes to a run alone
  • 01:13:36
    whereas in the west we often run alone
  • 01:13:38
    where you know we do it to de-stress or
  • 01:13:40
    unwind by ourselves he goes no no we
  • 01:13:42
    always run together and he says if
  • 01:13:44
    you're you know if you're not showing up
  • 01:13:46
    or your motivation's not there for a few
  • 01:13:47
    days one of your buddies is going to be
  • 01:13:49
    on the phone and say hey Elliot where
  • 01:13:51
    are you what's going on is everything
  • 01:13:52
    okay and it really struck me how much
  • 01:13:54
    culture plays a role here I thought wow
  • 01:13:57
    this incredible athlete the fastest
  • 01:14:01
    marathon runner on the planet never goes
  • 01:14:04
    for a run by himself it's always in a
  • 01:14:06
    group yeah
  • 01:14:08
    and I think that's who we are you know
  • 01:14:11
    uh I I just uh uh was lucky enough to go
  • 01:14:16
    on a to the Serengeti Plains I got to
  • 01:14:18
    see all these animals yeah they're all
  • 01:14:20
    living groups you know mammals live in
  • 01:14:22
    groups human beings live in groups yeah
  • 01:14:24
    that's how we Define ourselves as our
  • 01:14:27
    identities our reward system and you
  • 01:14:30
    know there may be people out there who
  • 01:14:32
    just love their little apps but they
  • 01:14:35
    don't know many of them they're
  • 01:14:37
    absolutely quite wonderful yeah but I
  • 01:14:40
    guess you wouldn't know them because
  • 01:14:41
    they're at home on their apps so you
  • 01:14:43
    wouldn't be interacting with them
  • 01:14:44
    potentially but I I think it's a very
  • 01:14:46
    very important point we must just
  • 01:14:48
    briefly touch on psychedelics you
  • 01:14:50
    mentioned group psychedelic therapy and
  • 01:14:52
    of course psychedelics are getting a lot
  • 01:14:54
    of media they're all the rage
  • 01:14:57
    um they're still illegal of course in
  • 01:14:59
    many countries I have to say that
  • 01:15:02
    um where do you stand at the moment on
  • 01:15:04
    the use of certain psychedelics as a
  • 01:15:08
    treatment or as part of the treatment
  • 01:15:10
    for people suffering from trauma or
  • 01:15:12
    other mental health issues you know what
  • 01:15:14
    where does what does the evidence say at
  • 01:15:16
    the moment and who do you think it might
  • 01:15:17
    be useful for and who should be cautious
  • 01:15:19
    would you say so luckily this is not
  • 01:15:22
    just an issue of opinion my lab actually
  • 01:15:25
    does psychedelic studies and I'm really
  • 01:15:28
    very happy to be part of this
  • 01:15:30
    burgundy thing and we do be a part of
  • 01:15:33
    the studies and uh one of my papers will
  • 01:15:37
    come out of it specifically about what
  • 01:15:39
    circular can do all the basic research
  • 01:15:41
    and uh so uh
  • 01:15:44
    I have a license to give MDMA actually
  • 01:15:47
    to people and part of a larger study
  • 01:15:50
    that's almost done uh and so I have good
  • 01:15:54
    data and the only psychedelic like
  • 01:15:58
    substance that's legal in America right
  • 01:15:59
    now is ketamine and I'm involved in
  • 01:16:02
    training people in ketamine assistance
  • 01:16:05
    Psychotherapy oh so I know ketamine
  • 01:16:07
    quite well I know MDMA quite well I
  • 01:16:10
    don't know psilocybin from a research or
  • 01:16:12
    personal experience well but we all talk
  • 01:16:15
    to each other and I see the beautiful
  • 01:16:16
    work that's been done started at Johns
  • 01:16:19
    Hopkins
  • 01:16:20
    um and let me give you an example A
  • 01:16:24
    friend of mine
  • 01:16:26
    who is a very major person in trauma
  • 01:16:29
    field and the person who we are deeply
  • 01:16:31
    love has developed severe cancer eight
  • 01:16:34
    years ago and he was angry bitter as one
  • 01:16:37
    could would be but he had the diagnosis
  • 01:16:40
    he joined the psilocybin study at uh at
  • 01:16:44
    Hopkins and
  • 01:16:47
    I visit him and he said he started to
  • 01:16:50
    cry he said it's an amazing experience
  • 01:16:52
    my friend doesn't have a mystical bone
  • 01:16:54
    in his body and he said I was blasted in
  • 01:16:58
    the universe and I had these visions of
  • 01:17:01
    little villages with smoke coming out of
  • 01:17:03
    these chimneys and all my ancestors were
  • 01:17:06
    there and they were waving at me and
  • 01:17:08
    said hi yes could you join us we oh
  • 01:17:12
    we're all here and we all die and it's
  • 01:17:15
    part of life and my friend had this
  • 01:17:17
    mystical experience and he accepted his
  • 01:17:20
    death
  • 01:17:21
    except he's still alive eight years
  • 01:17:23
    after we all thought he was going to die
  • 01:17:25
    which really makes me very intrigued we
  • 01:17:28
    really should study whether the
  • 01:17:30
    psychedelics changed the immune system
  • 01:17:32
    to actually change some of the bodily
  • 01:17:35
    stuff this is an interesting issue but
  • 01:17:37
    if it happened to my friend Frank was a
  • 01:17:39
    very important inspiration for me to
  • 01:17:41
    look at how psychedelics can be helpful
  • 01:17:44
    and one of the reasons I got intrigued
  • 01:17:47
    with it is of course I'm from the 60s
  • 01:17:51
    generation I I had good experience with
  • 01:17:54
    the LSD when I was a young man and then
  • 01:17:56
    it became all straight and have done it
  • 01:17:58
    for a long time
  • 01:17:59
    but I do remember from taking LSD back
  • 01:18:02
    then is how it opens up your minds and
  • 01:18:06
    makes you aware of that the reality that
  • 01:18:09
    I've constructed for myself is just a
  • 01:18:11
    very small part of the overall reality
  • 01:18:14
    that surround us and you become really
  • 01:18:16
    aware of that your reality is your own
  • 01:18:20
    personal Construction
  • 01:18:21
    and by having this academic experience
  • 01:18:23
    you see that the universe is much larger
  • 01:18:26
    than the universe that you have that you
  • 01:18:29
    actually live in and that's actually
  • 01:18:31
    what we see when people do psychedelic
  • 01:18:34
    therapy is their mind becomes open to
  • 01:18:36
    new possibility to become more curious
  • 01:18:39
    about exploring new things
  • 01:18:42
    I have a number of friends who are very
  • 01:18:46
    famous scientists and I've asked all of
  • 01:18:48
    them they're all about my age I said did
  • 01:18:51
    you take our thing in college also I
  • 01:18:53
    said yeah of course I did I said how do
  • 01:18:55
    you think it affected your career and
  • 01:18:58
    every one of them says you know I think
  • 01:19:00
    I became a good scientist because the
  • 01:19:03
    psychedelics made me realize that the
  • 01:19:06
    reality that we have defined for
  • 01:19:07
    ourselves is just a small part of butter
  • 01:19:10
    is and it's making a more open-minded
  • 01:19:13
    and curious person yeah and that's very
  • 01:19:16
    much of a PC in our secondary treatments
  • 01:19:19
    and people oftentimes go into their
  • 01:19:21
    Obama and it's no picnic it's actually
  • 01:19:24
    can be very painful and people may lie
  • 01:19:27
    there and cry and say oh my God oh my
  • 01:19:30
    God but it opens them up to actually see
  • 01:19:34
    themselves and to visit themselves and
  • 01:19:37
    what our research shows uh will come out
  • 01:19:41
    before too long is that the secretaries
  • 01:19:44
    lead to a dramatic increase in
  • 01:19:46
    self-compassion
  • 01:19:48
    other people really feel for themselves
  • 01:19:51
    and have a feeling of compassion for
  • 01:19:54
    themselves it also makes people much
  • 01:19:56
    more aware of who they are it also makes
  • 01:20:00
    people more aware of how who other
  • 01:20:02
    people are so they're much better able
  • 01:20:04
    to negotiate interpersonal conflicts and
  • 01:20:07
    interpersonal relationships because they
  • 01:20:09
    really get exposed through a larger
  • 01:20:13
    reality than they ordinarily are locked
  • 01:20:15
    into so for a person who has suffered
  • 01:20:18
    trauma
  • 01:20:20
    when they go through a psychedelic
  • 01:20:23
    experience let's say in your lab or in
  • 01:20:25
    your studies you know
  • 01:20:28
    it opens up their minds they see what
  • 01:20:32
    that the story they've constructed is is
  • 01:20:34
    just one story there are multiple other
  • 01:20:37
    stories they could construct around
  • 01:20:39
    Dimensions also that visiting your
  • 01:20:42
    trauma I guess you're always stuck
  • 01:20:44
    because your body keeps a square and the
  • 01:20:46
    moment you go back there you feel that
  • 01:20:48
    agitation you feel that Terror and you
  • 01:20:50
    want to get away from it as fast as you
  • 01:20:52
    can and there's something about
  • 01:20:54
    both suicide and ketamine and MDMA
  • 01:20:58
    because we have seen it in all three the
  • 01:21:00
    large people to go to these dark places
  • 01:21:01
    and to not get engulfed by it to not get
  • 01:21:06
    hijacked by it and to plunge into a
  • 01:21:09
    dramatic state but to also get a few
  • 01:21:12
    different dimensions and to understand
  • 01:21:14
    things in a different way yeah yeah and
  • 01:21:16
    that self-compassion piece you mentioned
  • 01:21:18
    of course very very important for any
  • 01:21:20
    healing is if you come out of that
  • 01:21:22
    feeling more compassion for yourself
  • 01:21:24
    less shame less guilt and of course
  • 01:21:26
    that's going to help in anything further
  • 01:21:28
    that you do are there any
  • 01:21:31
    downsides you know as these things
  • 01:21:33
    become more and more
  • 01:21:35
    um in the mainstream and people talk
  • 01:21:38
    about them and you know more and more
  • 01:21:40
    people are trying psychedelics and of
  • 01:21:42
    course there's plenty of good research
  • 01:21:43
    showing how helpful it can be can it be
  • 01:21:46
    harmful for some people you know I'm so
  • 01:21:48
    glad you bring this up I tell my
  • 01:21:50
    colleagues we're in the honeymoon phase
  • 01:21:53
    and so I have a team of people who I had
  • 01:21:55
    20 30 years younger than I am and they
  • 01:21:58
    say we're part of the Revolution and I
  • 01:22:00
    say to them you're part of the second
  • 01:22:02
    revolution because I was I had Timothy
  • 01:22:05
    Leary's old office at Harvard at some
  • 01:22:07
    point wow there was a tail end of that
  • 01:22:10
    last Revolution
  • 01:22:11
    and the death Revolution collapsed in
  • 01:22:14
    part because of politics but also in
  • 01:22:16
    part because people got way too careless
  • 01:22:18
    and uh it really got out of control and
  • 01:22:23
    I'm really afraid these things will get
  • 01:22:24
    out of control again these are very very
  • 01:22:27
    powerful substances the way we do our
  • 01:22:29
    study is extraordinarily careful we get
  • 01:22:32
    to know people really well they have two
  • 01:22:35
    therapists who are with them the whole
  • 01:22:37
    time uh set and setting is everything uh
  • 01:22:40
    we have relationships with the people
  • 01:22:42
    who who we treat and they feel safe with
  • 01:22:45
    us and so right now in our study we just
  • 01:22:49
    opened up the second study uh first one
  • 01:22:52
    I was 891 people the last one is 103
  • 01:22:56
    people and again we have no significant
  • 01:22:59
    side effects but we have no significant
  • 01:23:01
    side effects because we pay so much
  • 01:23:04
    attention to certain setting and what
  • 01:23:06
    you see already as as there's money at
  • 01:23:09
    the end our Hills you can go to academy
  • 01:23:12
    infusion Clinic where you go to little
  • 01:23:14
    cubicle get the infusion and nobody is
  • 01:23:17
    there with you and you can bring a panic
  • 01:23:19
    battle button if you become really upset
  • 01:23:21
    that horrifies me yeah because blowing
  • 01:23:25
    your mind is a potentially very
  • 01:23:28
    dangerous thing and and very painful and
  • 01:23:31
    horrible things can become manifested
  • 01:23:33
    and you need to really create a very
  • 01:23:37
    careful container for it yeah okay thank
  • 01:23:40
    you I'm worried it will blow up again
  • 01:23:42
    yeah yeah I just would love to
  • 01:23:46
    um
  • 01:23:48
    just think about
  • 01:23:50
    what can trauma teach us as members of
  • 01:23:55
    the society because you said something
  • 01:23:58
    very profound once victims are members
  • 01:24:01
    of society whose problems represent the
  • 01:24:04
    memory of suffering rage and pain in a
  • 01:24:08
    world that longs to forget
  • 01:24:11
    you know when you quoted me I always go
  • 01:24:13
    like I wish I'd written that it's so
  • 01:24:15
    good and then in terms I've written like
  • 01:24:18
    yeah I mean they're your words and I
  • 01:24:21
    think they are so profound because look
  • 01:24:24
    let's be really clear trauma traumatic
  • 01:24:27
    experience is a horrible they're causing
  • 01:24:28
    all kinds of problems to people
  • 01:24:30
    hopefully the conversation we've had the
  • 01:24:32
    work you are doing is going to help
  • 01:24:34
    people first of all become aware of that
  • 01:24:36
    and then start to make changes maybe
  • 01:24:39
    some of the modalities we've already
  • 01:24:40
    spoken about but
  • 01:24:43
    I do wonder what can we as a society
  • 01:24:46
    learn from trauma traumatic you know
  • 01:24:48
    traumatized individuals
  • 01:24:50
    you know is there any upside is there
  • 01:24:52
    anything that you know for a society is
  • 01:24:54
    that
  • 01:24:55
    I've got a very sensitive how I say this
  • 01:24:57
    but I'm I'm just saying every every bit
  • 01:25:00
    of adversity in life tends to have an
  • 01:25:02
    upside at some point whether we're ready
  • 01:25:04
    to see it or not and I just wonder with
  • 01:25:07
    all your experience
  • 01:25:09
    are there any upsides and what can we
  • 01:25:11
    learn as a society from looking at
  • 01:25:15
    people suffering from trauma I think I
  • 01:25:18
    think the big message is people
  • 01:25:20
    generally do the best they can yeah
  • 01:25:23
    and that's very important and so one of
  • 01:25:26
    the things that's very gratifying about
  • 01:25:28
    work that I do I see a lot of people who
  • 01:25:31
    have gone through experiences that I
  • 01:25:33
    cannot imagine having been able to
  • 01:25:35
    survive and you see what people have
  • 01:25:37
    done to survive and they may have done
  • 01:25:40
    weird things like become addicted to
  • 01:25:42
    heroin in order to survive but it does
  • 01:25:44
    their way of survival and so I think but
  • 01:25:47
    trauma really teaches us is that people
  • 01:25:49
    do the best they can to survive and that
  • 01:25:53
    being punitive and nasty to people who
  • 01:25:57
    do things that you don't like it's
  • 01:25:59
    probably not the best way to help them
  • 01:26:01
    and that you need to really it's very
  • 01:26:04
    important that that people do get
  • 01:26:07
    traumatized if you yell at them if you
  • 01:26:09
    screen them if you uh put them in
  • 01:26:11
    seclusion and to become aware of the
  • 01:26:15
    potential damage we can do to each other
  • 01:26:17
    but also how being heard and being in
  • 01:26:20
    connection with people is terribly
  • 01:26:23
    important for all of us at every stage
  • 01:26:25
    of our lives and that uh that that to
  • 01:26:29
    honor people's reality also
  • 01:26:31
    I think many of us are familiar with
  • 01:26:34
    certain pieces of art or songs or some
  • 01:26:38
    just quite beautiful pieces of music
  • 01:26:42
    that have come
  • 01:26:43
    from trauma so yes that individual has
  • 01:26:46
    had extreme pain and suffering but what
  • 01:26:49
    has come out of that has brought
  • 01:26:53
    such joy to so many people uh I I don't
  • 01:26:57
    know I I again I I'm very cautious as I
  • 01:27:00
    say that because I don't want to at all
  • 01:27:02
    come across as someone who is
  • 01:27:03
    undermining how painful those
  • 01:27:06
    experiences are
  • 01:27:08
    I'm just trying to maybe at the end of
  • 01:27:10
    this conversation leave a slightly
  • 01:27:11
    uplifting uh sort of tone there
  • 01:27:14
    yeah
  • 01:27:15
    you know there's not a scientific
  • 01:27:16
    statement but I think most really truly
  • 01:27:20
    Innovative things in our world are are
  • 01:27:23
    discovered by traumatized people because
  • 01:27:26
    they live in the world that's unbearable
  • 01:27:28
    and so they have no choice but to fight
  • 01:27:31
    new ways of coping with things that is
  • 01:27:34
    different from where you live because if
  • 01:27:36
    they would say keep doing the same thing
  • 01:27:38
    uh they would die a great example is
  • 01:27:43
    Isaac Newton
  • 01:27:44
    uh the greatest physicist who ever lived
  • 01:27:47
    uh and the uv's biography this guy had
  • 01:27:51
    the worst possible childhood
  • 01:27:53
    and so he hid himself into mathematics
  • 01:27:57
    and physics and that was his safe place
  • 01:28:00
    that allowed him to create things uh JK
  • 01:28:04
    Rowling the author of uh Harry Potter uh
  • 01:28:08
    she was a very traumatized person who I
  • 01:28:12
    I wrote Don't details I've never met her
  • 01:28:14
    but she was a very messed up trying to
  • 01:28:17
    test person until she started to put it
  • 01:28:19
    together in these Harry Potter stories
  • 01:28:21
    that actually come from the visions of A
  • 01:28:24
    time test person and she gave this
  • 01:28:27
    unbelievable gift to the whole world of
  • 01:28:29
    people to him to be able to imagine uh
  • 01:28:32
    new possibilities and you see this over
  • 01:28:35
    and over again and part of the of the
  • 01:28:38
    pleasure of my job is when I really get
  • 01:28:40
    to know people I get to see how they
  • 01:28:43
    have found their particular ways of
  • 01:28:45
    surviving uh they don't all become like
  • 01:28:48
    Isaac Newton or JK Rowling you know it's
  • 01:28:52
    still an exceptional Talent becomes but
  • 01:28:55
    uh the termites people have new ways of
  • 01:28:59
    pointing things out to us we can learn
  • 01:29:01
    from them
  • 01:29:03
    Dr Monica you are doing a great service
  • 01:29:05
    to the world all your work the book
  • 01:29:07
    literally is such a phenomenal read I
  • 01:29:10
    can see why it keeps selling gear on
  • 01:29:13
    year and it keeps spreading through Word
  • 01:29:15
    of Mouth
  • 01:29:16
    it's absolutely incredible thank you for
  • 01:29:17
    making time thank you just you know
  • 01:29:20
    yourself also I'm really impressed with
  • 01:29:22
    the depth of the questions you asked me
  • 01:29:24
    I really really liked it a lot yeah oh
  • 01:29:26
    thank you I appreciate that just just
  • 01:29:27
    very very finely
  • 01:29:29
    um
  • 01:29:32
    for anyone who's listening right now
  • 01:29:35
    or he's watching
  • 01:29:36
    who feels stuck in their life who feels
  • 01:29:40
    the way that they are right now is the
  • 01:29:42
    way that they have to stay the way they
  • 01:29:44
    have to remain
  • 01:29:46
    and they feel no hope no possibilities
  • 01:29:49
    for the future
  • 01:29:51
    what would you say to them
  • 01:29:57
    I would talk about
  • 01:30:00
    might be available
  • 01:30:02
    have you tried yoga have you ever seen a
  • 01:30:05
    choir and in family I always take very
  • 01:30:07
    careful histories about when these
  • 01:30:10
    things work for you what were you doing
  • 01:30:12
    but you did not feel this way what's the
  • 01:30:14
    relationships were you in and I tried to
  • 01:30:17
    help people to not only remember the
  • 01:30:20
    horrors of the past but also that kid a
  • 01:30:23
    long time ago who was able to do this
  • 01:30:25
    and who coped somehow and to really
  • 01:30:28
    revisit yourself as a Survivor to see
  • 01:30:32
    what has birth to him what hasn't worked
  • 01:30:34
    what gave you a glimber of Hope and then
  • 01:30:36
    to look around in your environment uh
  • 01:30:39
    would sing in a choir work we're doing
  • 01:30:41
    martial arts work we'd go to yoga studio
  • 01:30:43
    work to really look at what it is in
  • 01:30:47
    your culture that might help your body
  • 01:30:50
    to feel uh at home or safe or a feeling
  • 01:30:56
    of pleasure and engagement
  • 01:30:59
    that's around the code that's the coming
  • 01:31:00
    on the show
  • 01:31:02
    thank you very much it's a pleasure if
  • 01:31:05
    you enjoyed that conversation I think
  • 01:31:06
    you are really going to enjoy this one
  • 01:31:08
    all about addiction trauma and why so
  • 01:31:11
    many of us feel lost addiction is the
  • 01:31:13
    most human thing there is all addictions
  • 01:31:15
    the attempts to gain pain relief
  • 01:31:17
    emotional pain relief or something or
  • 01:31:19
    another then this whole society is so
  • 01:31:21
    expert at selling us stuff to fill those
  • 01:31:24
    holes temporarily this is the whole
  • 01:31:26
    ethic of this culture
Tags
  • trauma
  • healing
  • EMDR
  • neurofeedback
  • yoga
  • psychedelics
  • theater
  • emotional health
  • social connection
  • chronic illness