Donald Savoie: Power: Where is it?

00:26:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdQzm36RmMQ

Summary

TLDRUn'intervista con Donald Saif Wah, autore di "Power, Where Is It", esplora come il potere politico sia localizzato e cambiato nel corso degli anni. Discussione su dove risiede il potere, come è distribuito tra ministeri e parlamentari e come i cittadini possano riconquistare il controllo. Temi di rilevanza includono la centralizzazione del potere nel primo ministro, la perdita di influenza dei parlamentari e la trasformazione dei partiti politici in macchine elettorali. Esamina anche come il servizio pubblico abbia perso potere e le dinamiche tra i politici e i funzionari pubblici. La discussione include critiche alla gestione del potere, suggerendo che i cittadini si impegnino politicamente per riformare e rafforzare i partiti e il loro coinvolgimento politico.

Takeaways

  • 📚 Il potere politico è cambiato profondamente nel tempo in Canada.
  • 🤔 È importante sapere dove risiede il potere per essere cittadini responsabili.
  • ⚖️ Il potere è a volte un gioco a somma zero.
  • 👥 I parlamentari hanno perso parte della loro influenza.
  • 🔍 Il 'potere sciolto' è duro da localizzare e gestire.
  • 🎯 I partiti politici sono diventati macchine elettorali senza vera anima.
  • 💡 Il sistema necessita di una riforma per riacquistare fiducia.
  • 🏛️ Il servizio pubblico ha perso parte della sua autonomia e influenza.
  • 🔄 La concentrazione del potere nel PMO ha conseguenze significative.
  • 🗣️ I cittadini dovrebbero essere più attivi nei partiti per guidare il cambiamento.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    Oresenten Pácis: in Sa Bacina è Macengada, de subratto a indehhairu de prava vanarrica. Alimentetu s'ordano ai su intullo extra chellasicca a sa tene buenos motta it portau stantia de sue futti competentis da P.C..

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Sa di fora non si est portau cutù inteqe, s' patdue contrullad con su partidu a lupernariu omentendi viando la discussion de equivalenciu un cunnot bados fiscabile o bis a spiritus or: "forma de intrigionari ést a su pustis a totala su ungn est anima singhi Erpowitz, quoronnia fact.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    Gh'astèriticamente convanta umentation de unisce cordesa dapresiore.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    Comattimbrasa su ventu di chi sia alteracuntu.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:26:05

    Sa infidia cumunit chieca è istaira di oclusione banne-i su m.prefix viidare di ___, sciate comau su dėorìo immenso.

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Mind Map

Mind Map

Frequently Asked Question

  • Chi è Donald Saif Wah?

    È un autore e accademico dell'Università di Moncton, specializzato nello studio del potere politico.

  • Qual è il tema principale del libro di Donald Saif Wah?

    Il tema principale è l'identificazione del potere politico e come esso è cambiato nel tempo.

  • Perché è importante sapere dove risiede il potere politico?

    Perché è fondamentale per i cittadini democratici sapere chi detiene il potere per esercitare una cittadinanza informata e responsabile.

  • Il potere è un gioco a somma zero?

    Secondo Saif Wah, il potere può essere considerato in parte un gioco a somma zero perché quando qualcuno perde potere, qualcun altro probabilmente lo guadagna.

  • Che cosa si intende per 'potere sciolto'?

    'Potere sciolto' si riferisce a un potere disorganizzato che non appartiene completamente ad alcuna organizzazione, ma a individui specifici.

  • Perché i parlamentari hanno perso influenza secondo Wah?

    Per via della complessità crescente delle strutture governative e dell'incapacità di incidere realmente sui processi decisionali a causa di regole e procedure complicate.

  • Come si può recuperare il ruolo del Parlamento secondo Saif Wah?

    Coinvolgendo maggiormente i cittadini nei partiti politici e spingendo per politiche più forti.

  • Come è cambiato il ruolo del servizio pubblico nel tempo?

    È diventato meno potente poiché i politici hanno cercato di accentrare il controllo.

  • Qual è la differenza tra potere e influenza?

    Il potere è la capacità di prendere decisioni ultime, mentre l'influenza riguarda la capacità di influenzare chi prende tali decisioni.

  • Quali sono le implicazioni della concentrazione del potere nell'ufficio del Primo Ministro?

    Rende difficile per i parlamentari e altre istituzioni esercitare un controllo effettivo sul governo.

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  • 00:00:00
    and joining us now Donald Saif wah from
  • 00:00:03
    the université de Moncton and the author
  • 00:00:05
    of power where is it it's good to have
  • 00:00:07
    you back here at TV oh thanks for having
  • 00:00:09
    me Steve I want to start with a great
  • 00:00:11
    quote that I plucked out of your book
  • 00:00:13
    because it's a book that examines where
  • 00:00:15
    power is located and how it's changed
  • 00:00:17
    over the years and there's the quote
  • 00:00:18
    politics is about wanting power getting
  • 00:00:21
    it exercising it and keeping it strong
  • 00:00:24
    correction said that who'd know better
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    than him back-to-back-to-back majority
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    governs do you agree as he put his
  • 00:00:29
    finger on it
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    oh he's a master of politics in is a
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    master of power and where is it how do
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    grab it and manage it so there's no
  • 00:00:35
    question that deal is right why is it
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    important as far as you're concerned to
  • 00:00:39
    know where power is well it's a
  • 00:00:42
    fundamental tenant of our system if you
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    live in a democratic state it's
  • 00:00:48
    important for voters citizens to know
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    who has power and I set out to establish
  • 00:00:52
    if we had seen some changes in recent
  • 00:00:55
    years and I think we have and I wanted
  • 00:00:57
    to point out two interested voters and
  • 00:00:59
    interested citizens here's where power
  • 00:01:01
    may lie it's not where you might think
  • 00:01:03
    it does and it's not where what was 30
  • 00:01:06
    years ago before we examine that is it a
  • 00:01:08
    given that if you've got more power I
  • 00:01:11
    necessarily have less it's a zero-sum
  • 00:01:13
    game somewhat somewhat because power
  • 00:01:16
    does shift and we've seen it over the
  • 00:01:18
    past 20 years and so on so if somebody
  • 00:01:21
    loses power chances are somebody else is
  • 00:01:23
    going to get it you tell us that it's
  • 00:01:25
    now more difficult than ever to locate
  • 00:01:27
    where it is why is that all kinds of
  • 00:01:30
    reasons but essentially we've muddled
  • 00:01:33
    organizations so much that we've made it
  • 00:01:36
    virtually impossible for an organization
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    to take an objective and run with it and
  • 00:01:40
    so we've created so many different zones
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    of power and when you say we who do you
  • 00:01:46
    mean we the system we Canadians we
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    Parliament we the officers are part of
  • 00:01:51
    me well yeah you didn't do it and I
  • 00:01:53
    didn't do it so who's the weak well I
  • 00:01:54
    think we might have I think citizens
  • 00:01:56
    applied pressure to have more
  • 00:01:58
    transparency in government to have
  • 00:02:00
    greater accountability in government and
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    we've added we've added layers of
  • 00:02:03
    accountability layers of transparency
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    and we made it very difficult for
  • 00:02:06
    government department allowing allowing
  • 00:02:08
    Department to get things done and so
  • 00:02:11
    we've created what you know what I
  • 00:02:12
    called loose power and loose power
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    belongs to only a few people
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    it can't belong to any organization and
  • 00:02:19
    who is in a position to grab that lose
  • 00:02:21
    power and run with it it used to be it
  • 00:02:23
    used to be a government department less
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    so now do these things just happen or
  • 00:02:28
    they kind of willfully done because you
  • 00:02:29
    know when the system so big sometimes it
  • 00:02:31
    just you know by inertia or whatever
  • 00:02:33
    things well I think it's a combination
  • 00:02:34
    of both I think it just happened and I
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    think we've again we've overlaid so many
  • 00:02:39
    processes and so many government
  • 00:02:40
    decision-making processes that it's very
  • 00:02:43
    difficult to grab something and run with
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    it if you want to grab something you'll
  • 00:02:47
    probably be grabbing smoke and I'm gonna
  • 00:02:49
    grab you know real unless you are in a
  • 00:02:51
    position to grab whatever loose powers
  • 00:02:53
    around and run with it and that happens
  • 00:02:55
    to be the prime minister in his
  • 00:02:56
    courtiers and so on I think most people
  • 00:02:59
    who follow this stuff well remember
  • 00:03:01
    Pierre Trudeau's view of members of
  • 00:03:02
    parliament when they were 100 feet or a
  • 00:03:04
    hundred yards or whatever he was he said
  • 00:03:05
    away from Parliament Hill he called him
  • 00:03:07
    a bunch of nobodies but let us you know
  • 00:03:10
    so the the lessening power of the member
  • 00:03:12
    of parliament is something that has been
  • 00:03:13
    tracked for several decades now but
  • 00:03:14
    here's one of the quotes from your book
  • 00:03:16
    if one is looking to locate influence
  • 00:03:18
    let alone power one needs to look
  • 00:03:20
    elsewhere than to MPs or parliamentary
  • 00:03:23
    committees can you help us just take us
  • 00:03:25
    through a bit of the history here
  • 00:03:26
    tracing the waning influence of the
  • 00:03:29
    member of parliament when did it start
  • 00:03:30
    where are we now
  • 00:03:31
    I think the critical moment was probably
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    late 60s when we changed the process to
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    table budget estimates where we struck a
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    deal not we not you and I but somebody
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    struck a deal let's Pierre Trudeau if
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    it's late 60s you're talking Trudeau and
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    mandarins and so on I think they struck
  • 00:03:48
    a deal because they wanted to get it to
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    simplify the process and get the
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    estimates through so they struck a deal
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    if it's not approved by a certain date
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    it is deemed tech and approved in
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    exchange for that they gave mp's bigger
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    budget bigger offices more staff and but
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    they lost the capacity to go after the
  • 00:04:05
    spending estimates I think if he can't
  • 00:04:07
    go after the spending estimates if you
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    can't go after how government spends and
  • 00:04:10
    where you you lose a big chunk of any
  • 00:04:13
    influence that that you might have so I
  • 00:04:15
    think the critical moment was there but
  • 00:04:17
    then we've gone on and on and on
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    and now at the moment I think political
  • 00:04:21
    parties are lost their soul I think
  • 00:04:25
    political parties don't stand for much
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    they hug the center and we've we've
  • 00:04:31
    transformed parties into the personality
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    of the leader well you've said their
  • 00:04:35
    election machines basically you crank
  • 00:04:36
    them up around election time they raise
  • 00:04:37
    money and that's it that's it
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    but if we look at that grand bargain
  • 00:04:42
    that was made back in the late 1960s if
  • 00:04:44
    members of parliament got bigger office
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    staffs and more resources bigger budgets
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    presumably that has allowed them in
  • 00:04:50
    exchange for giving up an oversight role
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    over Parliament to take care of their
  • 00:04:55
    constituents better so has that has that
  • 00:04:57
    been the trade off well I think the
  • 00:04:59
    trade off rather the news staff and
  • 00:05:01
    resources to look at the spending
  • 00:05:03
    estimates to look at government policies
  • 00:05:04
    to look at programs they've used the
  • 00:05:07
    staff and resources to play partisan
  • 00:05:08
    politics and there's you know there's a
  • 00:05:11
    deep price to pay I think that's where
  • 00:05:13
    it had they made use of those you know
  • 00:05:15
    those resources to grab whatever
  • 00:05:16
    government is doing and look at it and
  • 00:05:19
    assess it it would've been much further
  • 00:05:20
    ahead there's a story in here that the
  • 00:05:23
    the chairman of the Public Accounts
  • 00:05:25
    Committee challenged public servants to
  • 00:05:27
    say you put a blank piece of paper in
  • 00:05:30
    the estimates and see if anybody's going
  • 00:05:32
    to notice and I think he was right
  • 00:05:35
    nobody would ever know because they
  • 00:05:36
    don't read them anymore
  • 00:05:37
    they don't read them anymore they don't
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    look at it they get volumes and volumes
  • 00:05:39
    and volumes of papers and documents and
  • 00:05:41
    MPs don't look at it and step of them
  • 00:05:43
    piece it's a bit complicated because you
  • 00:05:45
    need the background to really look at it
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    and be there much more keen on looking
  • 00:05:49
    and playing partisan politics playing to
  • 00:05:51
    the media back home setting up all kinds
  • 00:05:54
    of interviews and so on rather than look
  • 00:05:56
    at the fundamental spending patterns of
  • 00:05:58
    government or fundamental policies but
  • 00:06:00
    you know you look at last week's vote in
  • 00:06:02
    the House of Commons on the gun registry
  • 00:06:04
    issue now that's a pretty good example
  • 00:06:06
    of where your average everyday Member of
  • 00:06:08
    Parliament had a lot of power so is it
  • 00:06:11
    really fair to say that these folks kind
  • 00:06:14
    of aren't relevant have no power left
  • 00:06:15
    anymore
  • 00:06:15
    well when there's an issue that pops up
  • 00:06:18
    and when that issue doesn't deal with a
  • 00:06:20
    government department or government
  • 00:06:21
    processes that it's a standalone kind of
  • 00:06:23
    issue like gun registry yeah MPs and
  • 00:06:27
    parties and Canadians you know do have a
  • 00:06:29
    say but when when a
  • 00:06:32
    question is caught into the process into
  • 00:06:34
    the into the policy making process
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    decision-making process it gets lost
  • 00:06:37
    I don't think again I think that's when
  • 00:06:39
    I remember apartment but if they want to
  • 00:06:42
    grab it I think I think most of the time
  • 00:06:44
    they would be grabbing a smoke let's
  • 00:06:46
    make sure we understand our terms here
  • 00:06:48
    power as different from influence how
  • 00:06:50
    would you make the distinction what
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    power is somebody that has the ultimate
  • 00:06:54
    power to make a decision influences the
  • 00:06:56
    person who influences the person who
  • 00:06:58
    makes that decision gordon robertson a
  • 00:07:00
    former clerk of the Privy Council
  • 00:07:01
    explained it quite well you know some
  • 00:07:03
    thirty years ago he said public servants
  • 00:07:05
    have influence politicians have power
  • 00:07:07
    but if you by that definition there's
  • 00:07:09
    only one person in Ottawa then that has
  • 00:07:10
    power and that's the Prime Minister on
  • 00:07:12
    matters on matters that matter to him
  • 00:07:14
    yes and everything else is goes by
  • 00:07:16
    osmosis everything else goes through a
  • 00:07:18
    system and you know you can go two or
  • 00:07:20
    three years you can put a process you
  • 00:07:22
    can put a program you can put any
  • 00:07:24
    question into the machinery of
  • 00:07:26
    government and it's going to go on and
  • 00:07:28
    on and on for two or three years and it
  • 00:07:30
    doesn't it doesn't it doesn't come out
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    and but if the Prime Minister grabs it
  • 00:07:34
    and said that's my issue I'm going to
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    run with it something's going to happen
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    he's the ultimate authority he's Delta
  • 00:07:39
    and we're seeing a case now quite
  • 00:07:40
    recently the g8 spending boondoggle I
  • 00:07:43
    don't think the Prime Minister was fully
  • 00:07:46
    aware I don't think that the Minister of
  • 00:07:48
    Finance was fully aware the system
  • 00:07:49
    grabbed it ran with it and made some
  • 00:07:51
    silly decisions City decisions but had
  • 00:07:53
    the Prime Minister been on top of that
  • 00:07:54
    thought it wouldn't have happened well
  • 00:07:56
    this Ridge is an issue about
  • 00:07:57
    concentration in the Prime Minister's
  • 00:07:58
    office which as we all know has been
  • 00:08:00
    increasing over the last three or four
  • 00:08:02
    decades tell me this why would any Prime
  • 00:08:06
    Minister want to increasingly
  • 00:08:08
    concentrate all the power in his or her
  • 00:08:10
    office knowing that that means that if
  • 00:08:13
    something goes wrong you really have
  • 00:08:14
    nobody else to blame but yourself for it
  • 00:08:16
    well I think it's a matter of trusting
  • 00:08:19
    your staff more than trusting your
  • 00:08:21
    cabinet ministers there's a famous story
  • 00:08:23
    quite a well-known story that happened
  • 00:08:24
    3040 years ago a minister wanted to see
  • 00:08:27
    Pierre Trudeau and said look I have a
  • 00:08:29
    Deputy Minister it's not working out
  • 00:08:30
    he's not very competent and the Prime
  • 00:08:32
    Minister looked at and said I know that
  • 00:08:34
    Deputy Minister he's more confident than
  • 00:08:36
    you so that was administered well not in
  • 00:08:39
    the position to say I blame a guy for
  • 00:08:41
    asking so
  • 00:08:44
    i-i think we've reached the point where
  • 00:08:46
    access to information transparency
  • 00:08:48
    officers our Parliament overlaid with so
  • 00:08:49
    many things there's so many things that
  • 00:08:51
    can go wrong that the Prime Minister
  • 00:08:52
    thinks that if you concentrate influence
  • 00:08:55
    in his office and makes the key
  • 00:08:57
    decisions that there's a less of a
  • 00:08:59
    chance that things are really going to
  • 00:09:00
    go wrong and what do you think the
  • 00:09:01
    implications of that trend have been
  • 00:09:03
    down well enormous I teach a graduate
  • 00:09:07
    program and we were talking last week
  • 00:09:09
    namely a few cabinet ministers my
  • 00:09:12
    students second year masters Minister of
  • 00:09:14
    Finance the prime minister after that
  • 00:09:17
    just you know tough slugging twenty
  • 00:09:19
    years ago I would have asked the same
  • 00:09:20
    students name a few minutes they would
  • 00:09:22
    have rattle off ten or twenty you know
  • 00:09:24
    the romeo blonde the album attack ended
  • 00:09:25
    on jameson these people had
  • 00:09:27
    personalities influence less so not but
  • 00:09:30
    again if at the end of the day it's all
  • 00:09:32
    about serving Canadians best does this
  • 00:09:36
    do it better than the old way I don't
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    think so I don't think supposed to I
  • 00:09:40
    think we need to we need to get a better
  • 00:09:42
    handle and Canadians need to get a
  • 00:09:43
    better handle how the system works I
  • 00:09:45
    think we need to rebuild party so they
  • 00:09:47
    mean something when you look at voter
  • 00:09:49
    turnout and something is drifting down
  • 00:09:51
    when you look at the cynicism that
  • 00:09:52
    that's really out there with politicians
  • 00:09:54
    bunch of crooks bunch of this bunch of
  • 00:09:57
    that that's not good we need a system
  • 00:09:59
    that that works and I think Canadians
  • 00:10:02
    have to have some confidence in the
  • 00:10:04
    ability of their members of parliament
  • 00:10:05
    to connect their concerns to Parliament
  • 00:10:07
    and and through that inside government
  • 00:10:10
    it's agreed but you know what's the
  • 00:10:11
    average Canadian to do about that well I
  • 00:10:14
    think they need to get involved I would
  • 00:10:17
    urge the average Canadian to become a
  • 00:10:18
    member of a political party whatever
  • 00:10:20
    party that they may want it to be and
  • 00:10:22
    then push that party to make some strong
  • 00:10:24
    policies that that would be one solution
  • 00:10:26
    we got to rebuild I think democracy
  • 00:10:28
    starts with parties and if we have
  • 00:10:31
    political parties that have no soul only
  • 00:10:33
    existed that can call it the leader
  • 00:10:35
    something is wrong here
  • 00:10:36
    at the risk of using an American
  • 00:10:38
    metaphor you want to have a tea party up
  • 00:10:39
    here well I'm not sure it would work it
  • 00:10:41
    certainly wouldn't work back home down
  • 00:10:43
    Easter say no I don't think it would
  • 00:10:44
    have much of a chance
  • 00:10:45
    okay let's talk we've talked about the
  • 00:10:48
    political side of the equation let's
  • 00:10:49
    move over to the civil service side of
  • 00:10:50
    things relatively speaking how much more
  • 00:10:52
    or less powerful today is the public
  • 00:10:55
    service than it was
  • 00:10:56
    generations ago much less powerful why
  • 00:10:59
    is that happen well again there's
  • 00:11:01
    several reasons but there was a time
  • 00:11:03
    when if you went to Ottawa as a young
  • 00:11:05
    public servant there were some key
  • 00:11:06
    departments finance Foreign Affairs
  • 00:11:08
    External Affairs the part bit of
  • 00:11:10
    industry it doesn't happen anymore
  • 00:11:13
    there's no I think every department
  • 00:11:15
    looks alike and so if you want to have
  • 00:11:18
    some influence you join the Privy
  • 00:11:19
    Council office which is at the center of
  • 00:11:21
    government I think that politicians
  • 00:11:23
    started to believe 30 years ago in the
  • 00:11:26
    Yes Minister syndrome that bureaucrats
  • 00:11:27
    had too much power and I think they've
  • 00:11:29
    done everything in their power to grab
  • 00:11:31
    that influence and grab that power and
  • 00:11:33
    bring it up and so I think the morale
  • 00:11:35
    problem that we know exists in the
  • 00:11:37
    federal public service is real I don't
  • 00:11:39
    think has anything to do with pay
  • 00:11:40
    pension not at all I think it has a lot
  • 00:11:44
    to do with the inability of public
  • 00:11:45
    servants to grab their work and own it
  • 00:11:47
    they don't own anything you know when
  • 00:11:49
    you reach a point where you you tell
  • 00:11:52
    stats can with 5,000 people
  • 00:11:54
    professionals so on we know better than
  • 00:11:57
    you if you look need a long
  • 00:11:58
    questionnaire we know better I think you
  • 00:12:01
    reached a point where we're where you
  • 00:12:03
    draw that line how do you trust a Deputy
  • 00:12:05
    Minister to make a key decision there's
  • 00:12:07
    an old theory that you separate policy
  • 00:12:09
    and management that politicians deal
  • 00:12:11
    with policy but where's management yeah
  • 00:12:14
    I think it's I think it's all right for
  • 00:12:16
    the Prime Minister Minister said we want
  • 00:12:17
    a census well once you've established
  • 00:12:19
    that and once you've funded that I think
  • 00:12:21
    you need to have trust in the public
  • 00:12:22
    servants that they can make the key
  • 00:12:23
    decision to run the census fairly well
  • 00:12:25
    you don't need to micromanage that I
  • 00:12:27
    think we've turned senior public
  • 00:12:29
    servants into short-order cooks rather
  • 00:12:32
    than sous chef but again if you want to
  • 00:12:34
    get back to trust and you mentioned the
  • 00:12:35
    terrific British series Yes Minister a
  • 00:12:38
    minute ago that what made that show
  • 00:12:40
    funny was that the politicians were all
  • 00:12:42
    a bunch of idiots and the civil servants
  • 00:12:43
    were very clever knew where the bodies
  • 00:12:45
    were buried and knew how to get stuff
  • 00:12:46
    done and more importantly knew how to
  • 00:12:48
    stop stuff isn't that the the nub of the
  • 00:12:52
    problem there is that politicians get
  • 00:12:53
    into office with an agenda to get things
  • 00:12:56
    done and they think that the civil
  • 00:12:57
    service is just warning their every will
  • 00:12:58
    I think it was much more the case 30
  • 00:13:00
    years ago and now I think politicians I
  • 00:13:03
    think a prime minister that want certain
  • 00:13:04
    things done I think the Prime Minister
  • 00:13:06
    then wants to kill a long questionnaire
  • 00:13:08
    in a census or killing
  • 00:13:10
    is somewhere in constituencies somewhere
  • 00:13:12
    in Canada he didn't want to kill the
  • 00:13:13
    questionnaire he wanted to kill the
  • 00:13:15
    notion of people going to jail to fill
  • 00:13:16
    it out just with a record low
  • 00:13:17
    well okay we can debate it but but I
  • 00:13:20
    think I think the point is we've we've
  • 00:13:22
    we've turned senior public servants into
  • 00:13:25
    people serving influence serving advice
  • 00:13:29
    that they think the ministers would want
  • 00:13:31
    to hear here's a graphic we're gonna
  • 00:13:34
    call power breakfast and again another
  • 00:13:36
    quote from your book power where is it I
  • 00:13:37
    asked a Deputy Minister in Ottawa to
  • 00:13:40
    help me locate where power currently
  • 00:13:42
    lies inside government her answer
  • 00:13:44
    actually you can find it most mornings
  • 00:13:46
    when the clerk and the prime minister
  • 00:13:48
    meet for those who are not familiar with
  • 00:13:51
    the insides and the guts of government
  • 00:13:53
    explain the significance of that quote
  • 00:13:55
    well the clerk of the Privy Council
  • 00:13:56
    we're three hats he's headed to public
  • 00:13:59
    service he's deputy minister to the
  • 00:14:01
    Prime Minister and his secretary to the
  • 00:14:03
    cabinet the real powerful part of that
  • 00:14:06
    equation is Deputy Minister Prime
  • 00:14:08
    Minister so when they meet every morning
  • 00:14:10
    or every second morning he comes to the
  • 00:14:12
    Prime Minister with his own agenda he
  • 00:14:15
    has several things that he wants to PM
  • 00:14:16
    to sign off on the Prime Minister has
  • 00:14:18
    three or four things that he wants to
  • 00:14:20
    get done so they meet and it's like a
  • 00:14:22
    share a bargaining process and the key
  • 00:14:25
    decisions happen there okay but one guy
  • 00:14:28
    works technically for the other guy so
  • 00:14:31
    why would let's use the current examples
  • 00:14:33
    why would Steven Harper need to make a
  • 00:14:34
    deal with his deputy minister to get
  • 00:14:36
    stuff done why can't he just say to him
  • 00:14:37
    I want this do it it's part of the
  • 00:14:39
    process if the coconut Privy Council
  • 00:14:40
    goes to see the Prime Minister and said
  • 00:14:41
    this diem appointment is very important
  • 00:14:43
    I think the system needs this this diem
  • 00:14:45
    appointment to administer yet sorry and
  • 00:14:47
    the Prime Minister will say okay fine
  • 00:14:49
    doesn't bother me whoever he or she is
  • 00:14:51
    if it makes the system happy fine but I
  • 00:14:54
    need somebody appointed as ambassador to
  • 00:14:55
    somewhere there's a treating process
  • 00:14:57
    there and it happens there and happened
  • 00:14:59
    to closed-door and that's where power a
  • 00:15:01
    lot of the power actually happened again
  • 00:15:03
    why would the Prime Minister need to
  • 00:15:04
    make a bargain with his deputy to get an
  • 00:15:06
    ambassador appointed he's the Prime
  • 00:15:07
    Minister he has that right sure but
  • 00:15:09
    there's a there's a big system 250,000
  • 00:15:13
    people working that big system they
  • 00:15:14
    report to the clerk of debris becomes
  • 00:15:15
    for all of them you know report to the
  • 00:15:17
    Prime Minister
  • 00:15:18
    the clerk reports the Prime Minister and
  • 00:15:19
    that's a massive system you don't want
  • 00:15:21
    to take it on Mikey
  • 00:15:22
    you take it on what it matters
  • 00:15:23
    and when the system says he'd want
  • 00:15:25
    certain things done I think Prime
  • 00:15:26
    Minister most Prime Minister said yeah
  • 00:15:28
    go so have you found in your research
  • 00:15:30
    that Prime Minister's fear of the
  • 00:15:33
    potential of a civil service uprising
  • 00:15:35
    against them they you know the potential
  • 00:15:37
    to thwart their will is that strong I
  • 00:15:38
    wouldn't use the word fear but I would
  • 00:15:40
    say that certain fight all Prime
  • 00:15:42
    Minister's would you know worry if
  • 00:15:44
    there's a brown envelope going up to to
  • 00:15:46
    you or they're journalists or so on do
  • 00:15:47
    because leaks can hurt a government and
  • 00:15:50
    we've seen it and so it's a it's a
  • 00:15:52
    process that has to be managed one of
  • 00:15:55
    the things we have seen in the last
  • 00:15:56
    probably 10 15 years is this notion of
  • 00:15:59
    the public service being urged to act
  • 00:16:03
    more like the private sector we see
  • 00:16:05
    incentives you know pay incentives
  • 00:16:07
    you'll make more money as a Deputy
  • 00:16:08
    Minister if you can make certain things
  • 00:16:10
    happen that ministers want the notion
  • 00:16:13
    that the people you work for our clients
  • 00:16:15
    as opposed to citizens what's your view
  • 00:16:18
    on this trend it's been a disaster you
  • 00:16:20
    don't like it I know because it doesn't
  • 00:16:21
    work look I you can't show me one
  • 00:16:26
    jurisdiction anywhere where paper
  • 00:16:29
    performance has worked how do you
  • 00:16:30
    establish the performance of a deputy
  • 00:16:32
    minister you set certain benchmarks and
  • 00:16:34
    if they're reached then you get so you
  • 00:16:36
    can add your bonus but there's all kinds
  • 00:16:37
    of reasons why you may or may not happen
  • 00:16:39
    there's all kinds of reasons political
  • 00:16:41
    the media budget series of consideration
  • 00:16:45
    and lack of resources it's all kinds of
  • 00:16:46
    issues we've tried this paper
  • 00:16:48
    performance in Britain in the US Canada
  • 00:16:50
    Australia and so on I know of no
  • 00:16:51
    jurisdiction that's got it right it's
  • 00:16:53
    very difficult because there are so many
  • 00:16:54
    factors that play if you tell the
  • 00:16:56
    salesman in the private sector you
  • 00:16:58
    belong and sell a thousand pages at the
  • 00:17:00
    end of the day you know if he stole it
  • 00:17:01
    if he or she sold a thousand bridges if
  • 00:17:04
    you tell the public sermons I need this
  • 00:17:06
    to happen we need to cut by 10 percent
  • 00:17:08
    clients have to be satisfied by five
  • 00:17:10
    percent there's so many factors at play
  • 00:17:12
    there's so many forces at play
  • 00:17:13
    how can you isolate that the reason why
  • 00:17:16
    you betaine those objectives or not is
  • 00:17:18
    the work of a Tiffany miss well humor me
  • 00:17:19
    here for a second I'll just give you for
  • 00:17:20
    instance and I have no idea if the
  • 00:17:21
    Deputy Minister in question has been
  • 00:17:23
    incentivized or incented whatever the
  • 00:17:25
    right word is to to do this but in the
  • 00:17:28
    last five six seven years in the
  • 00:17:29
    province of Ontario the government in
  • 00:17:31
    its wisdom decided that people needed
  • 00:17:33
    more hip and hip replacements and knee
  • 00:17:35
    operations and that kind of
  • 00:17:36
    and the system wasn't set up for it so
  • 00:17:38
    the Deputy Minister of Health presumably
  • 00:17:40
    at some point had to re-engineer the
  • 00:17:42
    system to do less of that and more of
  • 00:17:44
    this and they've got websites that show
  • 00:17:46
    that that in fact happened the hips and
  • 00:17:48
    knees are way way up and the other stuff
  • 00:17:50
    is you know not as much a priority it's
  • 00:17:52
    down could you not come to the
  • 00:17:54
    conclusion that obviously the deputy did
  • 00:17:56
    something right to make this happen and
  • 00:17:57
    therefore he or she's entitled to a boil
  • 00:17:59
    there's certain quantifiable things that
  • 00:18:00
    even look at that may well be one of
  • 00:18:02
    them but I would suggest that there's
  • 00:18:04
    all kinds of factors that wanting to
  • 00:18:05
    play there that deputy got more
  • 00:18:07
    resources and on and on and on I think
  • 00:18:09
    the fundamental point here is that the
  • 00:18:11
    public sector is unlike the private
  • 00:18:13
    sector in many ways the private sector
  • 00:18:14
    is unlike unlike the public sector in
  • 00:18:17
    many ways the two shall never meet and
  • 00:18:18
    when we tried to meet them it's very
  • 00:18:20
    simplistic and it creates all kinds of
  • 00:18:22
    problems I think it creates a kind of
  • 00:18:24
    moral problem I think the public a
  • 00:18:26
    person who joins the public service has
  • 00:18:28
    a certain sounds old-fashioned a
  • 00:18:30
    vocation in mind it's different the
  • 00:18:32
    public sector is not like the private
  • 00:18:33
    sector so calling it's it's somewhat of
  • 00:18:35
    their calling now I think it's in
  • 00:18:37
    trouble I think the calling is in
  • 00:18:39
    trouble I think there is a morale
  • 00:18:40
    problem I think they're searching for
  • 00:18:42
    proper role I think they're searching
  • 00:18:43
    for where they fit in the scheme of
  • 00:18:45
    things I think they've feel that they're
  • 00:18:47
    not valued by Canadians as much that
  • 00:18:48
    might have been the case 30 years ago so
  • 00:18:50
    there are some serious issues but the
  • 00:18:52
    public sector is not like the private
  • 00:18:54
    sector and therefore this this desire I
  • 00:18:57
    think that probably most Canadians who
  • 00:18:59
    either run a business or work in the
  • 00:19:00
    private sector and who would like to see
  • 00:19:02
    some of those private sector principles
  • 00:19:04
    let's not get too carried away here but
  • 00:19:06
    how about like efficiency you know is
  • 00:19:09
    that okay to bring to bear to the job
  • 00:19:11
    well there's different ways of doing it
  • 00:19:13
    I mean Mary Beth Thatcher said I'll
  • 00:19:15
    bring the efficiencies by cutting we
  • 00:19:17
    said you cut 150 thousand positions in
  • 00:19:19
    the civil service once you've done that
  • 00:19:22
    you're going to be far more efficient
  • 00:19:23
    there's one way of doing it it's in
  • 00:19:25
    other ways to gerrymander the whole
  • 00:19:27
    system said it looks like the private
  • 00:19:28
    sector I don't think the ladder has
  • 00:19:30
    worked
  • 00:19:30
    let me get sure to comment another one
  • 00:19:32
    of the quotes in your book and this was
  • 00:19:33
    from a recently retired deputy minister
  • 00:19:35
    who compared the way it is today to the
  • 00:19:37
    way it was 35 years ago when he first
  • 00:19:39
    joined and he said I saw economic
  • 00:19:41
    nationalism actually die in Canada while
  • 00:19:43
    serving in the public service with
  • 00:19:45
    economic nationalism came instruments
  • 00:19:47
    that the federal government had
  • 00:19:48
    in its policy and regulatory arsenal
  • 00:19:50
    which gave it an ability to exert
  • 00:19:52
    control over the business world
  • 00:19:53
    particularly foreign businesses in that
  • 00:19:56
    sense that government had more power
  • 00:19:57
    over the private sector back then than
  • 00:19:59
    it has now
  • 00:20:00
    and again I'd like your view on whether
  • 00:20:02
    or not this transition or this change
  • 00:20:05
    that he has seen has been to the benefit
  • 00:20:07
    or the detriment of the Canadian public
  • 00:20:09
    well I think there's been a great deal
  • 00:20:11
    benefit I think if you let the private
  • 00:20:13
    sector if you unleash it and get to and
  • 00:20:16
    get the kind of dynamic elements that it
  • 00:20:19
    can produce I think you get a lot of
  • 00:20:21
    benefits but it makes it makes the
  • 00:20:23
    second point and the point is if you if
  • 00:20:25
    you dislocate power you give it to the
  • 00:20:27
    courts like we've done under the Charter
  • 00:20:28
    if you give it to officers or Parliament
  • 00:20:31
    if you give it to g8 if you if you
  • 00:20:33
    dislocate power if you move it around
  • 00:20:34
    there's less lose power and if there's
  • 00:20:37
    less lose power the one who sits at the
  • 00:20:39
    top of that boost power ie the Prime
  • 00:20:41
    Minister
  • 00:20:41
    let's grab whatever loose power there is
  • 00:20:43
    because there's not as much there was a
  • 00:20:44
    been 3040 years ago there's all kinds of
  • 00:20:47
    issues that are settled outside of the
  • 00:20:49
    politics outside of Parliament outside
  • 00:20:51
    the cabinet whether it's in the courts
  • 00:20:52
    whether it's in the private sector
  • 00:20:54
    whether it's in international trade
  • 00:20:55
    agreements soap operas flowed out float
  • 00:20:57
    up and down and out so there's less
  • 00:20:59
    loose power and that's where the Prime
  • 00:21:01
    Minister I think it's made up his mind
  • 00:21:02
    look there's not enough to you know
  • 00:21:04
    really go I'm gonna grab it and run away
  • 00:21:05
    let me follow up on one of the things
  • 00:21:07
    you said there because we now have a
  • 00:21:08
    situation in Canada I think I'm like 25
  • 00:21:11
    or 50 years ago where whatever power
  • 00:21:14
    members of parliament had or credibility
  • 00:21:16
    they had to hold the government to
  • 00:21:18
    account or to provide an oversight
  • 00:21:20
    function you tell us is gone that you
  • 00:21:24
    know we've got a Parliamentary Budget
  • 00:21:25
    Officer we've got a Auditor General
  • 00:21:27
    we've got I don't know nine ten eleven
  • 00:21:28
    of these kind of 13 13 is in how you
  • 00:21:31
    count these kinds of what do you want to
  • 00:21:33
    call them watchdogs are obviously
  • 00:21:35
    Department officers of parliament power
  • 00:21:38
    has has moved to them now hasn't it in a
  • 00:21:41
    significant way influences influence not
  • 00:21:43
    power yet they always say yeah I think
  • 00:21:45
    they have much more influence I think I
  • 00:21:47
    think the media turns to them I think
  • 00:21:49
    political parties I said we can't hold
  • 00:21:52
    this crown accountable
  • 00:21:53
    let's give the steering wheel over to
  • 00:21:54
    these officers of parliament and they're
  • 00:21:56
    the ones you know the others are
  • 00:21:57
    journalists become a media star that's
  • 00:21:59
    not what she ought to be but that's what
  • 00:22:01
    it's become we've created officers of
  • 00:22:02
    parliament to oversight to overview
  • 00:22:05
    virtually every sector she's become a
  • 00:22:07
    media star because for whatever reason
  • 00:22:09
    the media has reported on what she's
  • 00:22:12
    done and the public and their wisdom
  • 00:22:13
    have decided that she's more trustworthy
  • 00:22:16
    than some of the other folks in there
  • 00:22:18
    that's fair isn't it that's fair but
  • 00:22:19
    it's also said when Parliament when when
  • 00:22:22
    when the opposition can not hold a
  • 00:22:24
    government to account when the
  • 00:22:25
    opposition takes the steering wheel over
  • 00:22:27
    and turns it over two options are
  • 00:22:29
    primacy you drive because we can't drive
  • 00:22:31
    this thing to me it said the function of
  • 00:22:33
    parliament is it's been eroded somehow
  • 00:22:35
    and they need to recapture that but
  • 00:22:37
    Sheila Fraser
  • 00:22:38
    I mean she's not gotta say this
  • 00:22:41
    carefully here I mean the public's
  • 00:22:42
    pretty good about judging BS right and
  • 00:22:44
    they've determined that she's a pretty
  • 00:22:45
    authentic not a showboat not a show-off
  • 00:22:48
    not a headline grabber that she puts her
  • 00:22:49
    head down and does her job well which is
  • 00:22:51
    why people trust her I mean that and
  • 00:22:53
    she's earned that hasn't she sure and I
  • 00:22:55
    don't want to take her oh and that's not
  • 00:22:56
    the point here the point is she's got a
  • 00:22:58
    different function how can she get it
  • 00:23:00
    wrong she goes to war and counts the
  • 00:23:02
    dead bodies she doesn't fight in the war
  • 00:23:04
    I mean if there's a big difference so if
  • 00:23:06
    you go after the fact and you look at
  • 00:23:08
    how you can always find flaws always
  • 00:23:10
    find something wrong and the public will
  • 00:23:12
    eat it up but at the end of the day
  • 00:23:14
    she's not running programs she's not
  • 00:23:15
    delivering policies she's oversight it's
  • 00:23:17
    an oversight body and sure it gains
  • 00:23:20
    brownie points in terms of Canadians
  • 00:23:22
    okay in our last minute here then I want
  • 00:23:24
    you to after this exhaustive survey that
  • 00:23:27
    you've done all the research that you've
  • 00:23:28
    done you've now seen where power was how
  • 00:23:31
    its moved how its mutated do you think
  • 00:23:35
    at the end of the day Canadians are
  • 00:23:36
    better off or worse off given how power
  • 00:23:39
    has changed worse no worse off yeah
  • 00:23:41
    we're so and I think the average
  • 00:23:42
    Canadian certainly because there was a
  • 00:23:44
    time when institutions you knew you'd go
  • 00:23:46
    to an institution you know they go to a
  • 00:23:48
    government department cabinet Parliament
  • 00:23:51
    you could figure out where influence and
  • 00:23:52
    power was at the moment it's all over
  • 00:23:54
    the place and only the well-heeled with
  • 00:23:57
    the resources to hire lobbyists can
  • 00:23:58
    figure it out and go to where power mate
  • 00:24:00
    and because power lies in the hands of
  • 00:24:02
    key people now it doesn't line and
  • 00:24:04
    departments or processes it lies in the
  • 00:24:07
    hands of several key people and if you
  • 00:24:09
    if again if you're well-heeled you go to
  • 00:24:11
    them and you get things done but if
  • 00:24:12
    you're never to do and you look to
  • 00:24:14
    Parliament to hold you know to get
  • 00:24:16
    things done or to gain answers it's not
  • 00:24:19
    going to happen it's not happening
  • 00:24:20
    anymore isn't it I don't know you know
  • 00:24:23
    this way better than I do but if you're
  • 00:24:25
    the average Joe in Canada
  • 00:24:26
    you never had any power right that
  • 00:24:28
    hasn't changed oh I think if you were
  • 00:24:29
    the average Joe forty years ago you
  • 00:24:31
    could go to your Member of Parliament
  • 00:24:32
    and you weren't grabbing smoke I think
  • 00:24:34
    the member of Partin was much more
  • 00:24:35
    connected I think you could go to a
  • 00:24:37
    cabinet minister from my negative
  • 00:24:38
    whether you could go to Romeo LeBlanc
  • 00:24:39
    tan Alger canal and Jimmy Kagan and here
  • 00:24:42
    I can think of several and you could get
  • 00:24:44
    some answers the average Joe could go in
  • 00:24:46
    that writing and talk to his member of
  • 00:24:48
    Prime Minister can you talk to that
  • 00:24:49
    Minister and get some answers I think
  • 00:24:51
    was much much easier because departments
  • 00:24:53
    had the influence the power in the
  • 00:24:55
    programs okay let me try going up back
  • 00:24:59
    at you one more time on that the average
  • 00:25:00
    Joe you know I've talked to a lot of
  • 00:25:02
    politicians too and what do they you
  • 00:25:03
    know what do they want from what a
  • 00:25:05
    constituents want from their MPs they
  • 00:25:07
    want their workers compensation claim
  • 00:25:08
    they want help with that they want some
  • 00:25:09
    help with a visa they want some help
  • 00:25:10
    with a passport they want some help
  • 00:25:12
    getting my you know my aunt my uncle
  • 00:25:14
    from overseas in here as landed
  • 00:25:16
    immigrants or whatever members of
  • 00:25:18
    parliament can still do that there's
  • 00:25:19
    nothing there's nothing about the way
  • 00:25:20
    powers change that would prevent them
  • 00:25:22
    from still doing that is there well it's
  • 00:25:23
    much more difficult it's much more
  • 00:25:25
    complicated but I think Parliament is
  • 00:25:27
    more than that I think a member of
  • 00:25:29
    Parliament's more than that I mean what
  • 00:25:31
    connects Canadians from British Columbia
  • 00:25:33
    to some John's what connects Canadians
  • 00:25:35
    its Parliament what makes me relate to
  • 00:25:39
    you its Parliament it's our political
  • 00:25:40
    institutions that's what connects
  • 00:25:42
    Canadians is not an idea there's got to
  • 00:25:45
    be an institution that brings it all
  • 00:25:46
    together and that's Parliament so it's
  • 00:25:47
    more than AI it's being the voice of
  • 00:25:51
    Canadians somewhere that needs to be
  • 00:25:53
    heard that's Parliament we've lost it
  • 00:25:55
    professor while we're always grateful
  • 00:25:57
    for your visits to us here in Upper
  • 00:25:59
    Canada to visit us again thanks so much
  • 00:26:01
    thank you very much for having me
Tags
  • potere politico
  • democrazia
  • partiti politici
  • governo
  • Canada
  • Primo Ministro
  • parlamento
  • influenza
  • servizio pubblico
  • centralizzazione