Theory of Architecture | #1 - Timothy Brittain-Catlin

01:53:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-CKk5BQ5ac

Summary

TLDRDr. Timothy Burton Catlin, an architect and academic at the University of Kent, delves into the realm of Neo-Gothic architecture, particularly its rise during the Gothic Revival. The discussion explores themes such as the emergence of Gothic architecture as a reaction to pre-Gothic styles and the significance of philosophical shifts that promoted 'form follows function'. Key elements like the architect's role, vertical style suitability for public buildings, and why Gothic Revival architecture didn't easily extend to domestic housing are analyzed. The conversation also navigates through the decline of Gothic Revival as modernism took over, and reflects on the current challenges in architectural education and practice. Alongside, it examines the political influences shaping architectural decisions, questioning the tangible truths in architecture across time. Critique on the architectural debate’s disconnect from public focus and media’s role in this dichotomy between high-profile avant-garde structures and everyday architecture further populates the conversation. Dr. Catlin also muses over the future trajectory of architectural theory amidst rising government interventions in design norms.

Takeaways

  • 🏰 Neo-Gothic architecture emphasizes historical context and philosophical depth.
  • 🎭 Gothic Revival architecture embodies theatricality and vertical detailing.
  • 🏛️ The movement faced limitations in adapting to domestic architectural needs.
  • 📐 'Form follows function' is a core principle influencing Gothic design.
  • 🔍 Architectural education lacks critical theory integration.
  • 🏢 The role of architects has shifted, facing marginalization challenges.
  • 🏗️ Political influences shape architectural decisions significantly.
  • 🏡 Public understanding of architecture is often shaped by media portrayals.
  • 📚 Calls for a deeper academic discourse in architectural practice.
  • 🌆 Future architectural practices may be guided by new regulatory standards.

Timeline

  • 00:00:00 - 00:05:00

    The conversation begins with an introduction to Timothy Burton Catlin, a reader in architecture at the University of Kent, whose studies focus on neo-gothic architecture. They discuss the transition from pre-Gothic Revival to Gothic Revival and the series of events that led to this architectural shift.

  • 00:05:00 - 00:10:00

    Discussion moves towards comparing Gothic and Palladian architecture, suggesting that Gothic architecture emerges from function rather than imposed theory. Questions arise about the philosophical, political, or theoretical changes that influenced the Gothic Revival.

  • 00:10:00 - 00:15:00

    The Palace of Westminster is highlighted as a place that resonates with Gothic architecture's processional feeling. The discussion suggests that architectural detailing plays a significant role in the experience of these spaces.

  • 00:15:00 - 00:20:00

    The topic shifts to the role of architects during the Gothic Revival, questioning whether the architect faced marginalization before this period. It explores the egotistical stereotype of architects during the Gothic Revival, particularly focusing on specific figures like Pugin.

  • 00:20:00 - 00:25:00

    A conversation about Gothic architecture's adaptability takes place, mentioning its prominence in public buildings due to higher budgets. There's a discussion about why Gothic Revival didn't permeate domestic architecture like Georgian did.

  • 00:25:00 - 00:30:00

    There is a contradiction noted between the vertical focus of Gothic architecture, suited for religious buildings, and the horizontal nature of domestic architecture. Discussion then includes whether prominent figures in the Gothic Revival were pioneers or building on existing ideas.

  • 00:30:00 - 00:35:00

    The Gothic Revival's decline is discussed, followed by a look at modernism's endurance. There's an exploration of architectural theory's current state and speculation about its future direction.

  • 00:35:00 - 00:40:00

    A reflection on why classicism has a cult following concludes that its symmetrical ideal appeals to a utopian vision incompatible with the Gothic philosophy, which is more emergent.

  • 00:40:00 - 00:45:00

    The adaptability of Gothic architecture is noted, contrasting with classicism's rigidity. The conversation touches on political affiliations with architectural styles and the lack of discourse about architectural motivations in education and practice.

  • 00:45:00 - 00:50:00

    Conversations on architectural theory in educational settings highlight a belated appreciation for theory, often only realized during postgraduate study. The discussion turns to government efforts in shaping architectural practice.

  • 00:50:00 - 00:55:00

    The discussion continues on the influence of the 'build beautiful' ideology and public sensitivity to it, recalled from the 1980s incidents involving Prince Charles. There are also insights into the potential effects on architectural practices and reactions.

  • 00:55:00 - 01:00:00

    Talks about provocation in architecture reference recent cases like Essex House, discussing the deliberate deviation from norms and the role of context in modern architecture's evolution.

  • 01:00:00 - 01:05:00

    The focus is on median architectural outputs, acknowledging that media visibility of high-profile buildings doesn't represent the majority. There's an emphasis on improving general quality across average designs.

  • 01:05:00 - 01:10:00

    There's a proposal to communicate architectural ideas in literary terms rather than technical exhibitions, using emerging tech like VR. The government calls for future conservation areas challenge architects to create lasting value.

  • 01:10:00 - 01:15:00

    The question of how to create valued conservation areas in the future arises, with reflections on the role of polarizing architecture in community value understanding.

  • 01:15:00 - 01:20:00

    A critique on divisions within architectural styles, such as high Victorian and mid-twentieth-century architectures, brings into discussion the need for critical, theoretical debate in current architecture.

  • 01:20:00 - 01:25:00

    Speculation on new pattern books or urban designs revives the debate around style adaptability. Connections to the land in urban housing are explored, questioning the translation value to contemporary contexts.

  • 01:25:00 - 01:30:00

    The government's new commission intends to foster public interest in architecture, aiming to increase acceptance of proposed buildings by emphasizing their aesthetic appeal. The broader implications for housing and planning are discussed, highlighting local authority roles.

  • 01:30:00 - 01:35:00

    The historical quality in architecture by entrepreneurs is examined, linking to current practices affected by policies like design/build contracts and value engineering.

  • 01:35:00 - 01:40:00

    The role of design guidelines and regulations in maintaining architectural quality is debated, contemplating where the responsibility should lie: state, local authorities, or architects themselves.

  • 01:40:00 - 01:53:57

    The last sections ponder architectural education's role in shaping future architects and consider historical influence skepticism. There’s a call for more public engagement and debate around architecture to fill current discussion voids.

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Mind Map

Video Q&A

  • What is the main focus of the discussion?

    The discussion mainly focuses on Neo-Gothic architecture, its historical context, emergence, and influence on modern architecture.

  • Who is involved in the conversation?

    The conversation involves Dr. Timothy Burton Catlin, a reader in architecture at the University of Kent, focusing on Neo-Gothic architecture.

  • What is the 'Gothic Revival'?

    The Gothic Revival refers to a movement that sought to revive Gothic architecture through emulating classical Gothic cathedrals and churches.

  • What is meant by 'form follows function'?

    "Form follows function" is a principle in architecture where the shape of a building is determined by its purpose or function.

  • What philosophical changes influenced the Gothic Revival?

    The discussion suggests that philosophical changes regarding architecture's role and the function influenced the Gothic Revival.

  • Why did the Gothic Revival not spread to domestic architecture as widely as other styles?

    Gothic Revival architecture is seen as being more suited for public or prominent buildings rather than domestic or mass housing due to its complexity and vertical style.

  • What is a significant aspect of Gothic architecture discussed?

    One significant aspect discussed is the theatrical and processional feeling space and the role of the architect's ego in its design.

  • What are some challenges faced by modern architecture discussed here?

    Challenges include the marginalization of architects, lack of theoretical debate, and the impact of market forces on design quality.

  • Is there a link between politics and architectural styles?

    Yes, the discussion touches on political elements influencing architectural style choices, implying links between political and architectural groups.

  • What is the criticism towards current architectural education?

    Current education is criticized for lacking a theoretical basis, leading to an insufficient understanding of why building styles are chosen.

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  • 00:00:04
    you are Timothy Burton Catlin dr.
  • 00:00:07
    Timothy Burton Catlin I should say you
  • 00:00:09
    are a reader in architecture at the
  • 00:00:11
    University of Kent is that correct
  • 00:00:12
    that's correct and your focus of study
  • 00:00:15
    has been on predominantly on neo-gothic
  • 00:00:17
    architecture
  • 00:03:56
    exactly was in terms of the transition
  • 00:03:58
    between pre Gothic Revival and Gothic
  • 00:04:02
    Revival so I think a lot of people are
  • 00:04:03
    fairly aware of the sort of the shift in
  • 00:04:05
    modernism perhaps because it's a more
  • 00:04:08
    recent thing but perhaps because it's
  • 00:04:10
    more relevant because because modernism
  • 00:04:11
    has for perpetuated over that time what
  • 00:04:14
    was the state of affairs before the
  • 00:04:16
    Gothic Revival came along and what were
  • 00:04:18
    the series of events that caused it to
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    occur
  • 00:09:35
    [Music]
  • 00:10:05
    [Laughter]
  • 00:10:07
    yeah when you're talking about the
  • 00:10:09
    Grange previously I don't know other
  • 00:10:12
    than whether you've said explicitly but
  • 00:10:13
    you talked about when you got sort of
  • 00:10:17
    everything comes off of one central hall
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    space and it's effectively it's an
  • 00:10:21
    emergent plan out of the function of the
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    building rather than say a Palladian
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    example of where you have a specific box
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    you have to fill in a certain set of
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    ways and so from a more theoretical
  • 00:10:32
    point of view I've and having written
  • 00:10:35
    about this previously ice or sea gothic
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    and consequently Gothic Revival as an
  • 00:10:39
    emergent philosophy in architecture
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    effectively that it's I mean it's
  • 00:10:44
    obviously a cliche to say form follows
  • 00:10:46
    function but it's a it's it comes out of
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    what the building has to do and how its
  • 00:10:51
    oriented and how its how its fulfilling
  • 00:10:54
    the function that you wanted to fulfill
  • 00:10:56
    rather than sort of a top-down imposed
  • 00:10:59
    view of the theory of the philosophy
  • 00:11:02
    behind it so would you is the was there
  • 00:11:04
    any aspect that leading up to the Gothic
  • 00:11:06
    river
  • 00:11:06
    in terms of a philosophical change or a
  • 00:11:08
    political change or a general
  • 00:11:12
    theoretical change as to why people felt
  • 00:11:14
    that this direction was the way to go at
  • 00:11:17
    that point in time
  • 00:13:53
    [Music]
  • 00:15:22
    [Music]
  • 00:15:32
    I was in the Palace of Westminster the
  • 00:16:18
    other day and you get that feeling even
  • 00:16:19
    though they're not explicitly cloisters
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    you do get that but you say processional
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    feeling of moving between spaces and
  • 00:16:25
    obstacles Barry was involved in the
  • 00:16:26
    actual planning of the building but the
  • 00:16:28
    sort of the sense you get that you are
  • 00:16:30
    entering different voids different
  • 00:16:32
    spaces and then different processions or
  • 00:16:35
    corridors between them is a very strong
  • 00:16:37
    sense and I guess Putin's detailing is a
  • 00:16:39
    large part of that
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    sounds like
  • 00:20:05
    hmm now I think it's interesting that
  • 00:20:07
    you mentioned the this idea of the
  • 00:20:09
    architect becoming the central figure
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    again because I think there's almost a
  • 00:20:14
    similar argument going on now in terms
  • 00:20:16
    of the sort of the the role of the
  • 00:20:17
    architect and the marginalization of the
  • 00:20:18
    architect
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    so was that something that was happening
  • 00:20:20
    before Huijin came along before the
  • 00:20:22
    Gothic Revival was the architect
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    becoming a more marginalized figure back
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    then as well at least not at the
  • 00:21:14
    conscious level
  • 00:21:32
    [Music]
  • 00:22:16
    was there a strong aspect to the ego too
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    as well at fusion strikes me might say
  • 00:22:20
    he wasn't a normal person in any any
  • 00:22:22
    traditional sense of normal but was was
  • 00:22:26
    that sort of sense of the egotistical
  • 00:22:28
    architect almost a stereotype I guess
  • 00:22:30
    was that a strong element in in his
  • 00:22:33
    philosophy in returning to this central
  • 00:22:36
    idea of the architect
  • 00:23:29
    [Music]
  • 00:25:44
    to that extent does the Gothic and
  • 00:25:47
    Gothic Revival only really lend itself
  • 00:25:49
    therefore to public buildings or prot
  • 00:25:52
    singular prominent buildings that have
  • 00:25:54
    apt higher budgets or where quality is
  • 00:25:56
    put in a more important place than four
  • 00:26:00
    units or cost per square meter or
  • 00:26:02
    anything
  • 00:26:33
    [Music]
  • 00:27:22
    [Music]
  • 00:28:17
    yeah you definitely get a sense of the
  • 00:28:19
    theatrical when you're in his buildings
  • 00:28:21
    well I don't know whether that's just
  • 00:28:22
    cuz we're not used to those kinds of
  • 00:28:23
    buildings anymore all that kind of
  • 00:28:25
    detailing so what was it that stopped
  • 00:28:28
    Gothic Revival architecture from
  • 00:28:30
    spreading more widely and from self from
  • 00:28:32
    leeching into a more domestic
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    architecture or mass housing or anything
  • 00:28:36
    like that in the same way that Georgian
  • 00:28:37
    did
  • 00:30:16
    tell me
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    there's almost a contradiction from what
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    I can see cuz gothic is very a very
  • 00:31:03
    vertical style eventually all sense of
  • 00:31:05
    building and then obviously lends itself
  • 00:31:07
    to ecclesiastical architecture
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    cathedrals churches because of that and
  • 00:31:10
    that the the domestic has always been a
  • 00:31:12
    more horizontal realm generally and as
  • 00:31:15
    and therefore lends itself less well
  • 00:31:17
    perhaps to Gothic architecture as a as a
  • 00:31:19
    style
  • 00:32:34
    [Music]
  • 00:33:49
    so was he the the sort of pioneer of the
  • 00:33:53
    gothic revival movement or whether did
  • 00:33:55
    he have followers around him or was he
  • 00:33:56
    sort of taking something that someone
  • 00:33:58
    else had started and developing further
  • 00:35:00
    [Music]
  • 00:35:02
    so what happened towards the end of the
  • 00:35:05
    Gothic Revival then what what drove
  • 00:35:08
    people to even become tired of it
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    because I understand it sort of got out
  • 00:35:12
    of hand effectively and there was a in
  • 00:35:14
    the Edwardian period
  • 00:36:22
    yeah and then obviously we transitioned
  • 00:36:25
    into the modernist period through
  • 00:36:28
    various means but that's I mean you talk
  • 00:36:31
    about people getting bored but modernism
  • 00:36:33
    effectively has been around for
  • 00:36:34
    effectively a hundred years now in its
  • 00:36:36
    various forms and awfully they've been
  • 00:36:38
    reactions against it temporarily with
  • 00:36:40
    post-modernism but where do you sort of
  • 00:36:43
    see architectural theory being at now in
  • 00:36:46
    terms of the status and where do you
  • 00:36:47
    think it might go and then sort of
  • 00:36:49
    coming years
  • 00:37:59
    your public houses
  • 00:39:28
    [Music]
  • 00:39:29
    what do you think there are eternal
  • 00:39:32
    truths in architecture the transcend
  • 00:39:35
    time periods
  • 00:41:40
    well I've been wondering recently about
  • 00:41:45
    why it is that classicism has this sort
  • 00:41:47
    of cult following and what it's a very
  • 00:41:48
    small number of people and why that
  • 00:41:50
    doesn't apply to whether it's gothic or
  • 00:41:52
    any other historical styles and I think
  • 00:41:54
    I think you're you're right in to touch
  • 00:41:56
    on the idea of this sort of almost
  • 00:41:58
    utopian perfect idea of or maybe
  • 00:42:00
    Arcadian idea an ideal city that's built
  • 00:42:04
    with these classical elements and maybe
  • 00:42:07
    that doesn't like say relate to a more
  • 00:42:10
    gothic philosophy which I would call
  • 00:42:12
    emergent and that doesn't fit this or
  • 00:42:15
    the perfect symmetrical laid out
  • 00:42:18
    narrative
  • 00:42:50
    [Laughter]
  • 00:43:50
    do you think the the modernist suppose
  • 00:43:52
    that's a homogeneous group fit into that
  • 00:43:54
    so Puritan idea or is that
  • 00:44:59
    [Music]
  • 00:45:23
    I think is mentioned earlier about
  • 00:46:40
    gothic being able to be adapted and
  • 00:46:42
    added to more easily because of the Nets
  • 00:46:44
    constructed and not having the same
  • 00:46:46
    tools symmetrical constraints that
  • 00:46:47
    classicism has and I think is I mean you
  • 00:46:50
    can see this in the examples looking at
  • 00:46:52
    luncheons his houses the other day when
  • 00:46:53
    he's no it's not Gothic Revival but
  • 00:46:55
    adding on to something that's four
  • 00:46:57
    hundred years older and you can barely
  • 00:46:59
    tell the difference because it's
  • 00:47:00
    continuing a same sorta lhasa fee and
  • 00:47:02
    let you say it doesn't fit that
  • 00:47:04
    symmetrical ideal so I think in terms of
  • 00:47:09
    the again trying to link this back to
  • 00:47:11
    the sort of theoretical side of it you
  • 00:47:12
    think there's a strong political element
  • 00:47:14
    in the advocating of certain style
  • 00:47:18
    styles or ways of building over others
  • 00:47:20
    others of political groups that match
  • 00:47:23
    quite closely with architectural groups
  • 00:47:26
    effectively
  • 00:49:33
    yeah struck me how little conversation
  • 00:49:37
    there is both in opposing education and
  • 00:49:40
    in especially in practice about why you
  • 00:49:42
    built something a particular way about
  • 00:49:44
    like about the theory effectively but
  • 00:49:47
    saying why are we doing this this way
  • 00:49:49
    why are we doing that that way not just
  • 00:49:51
    oh let's do this this way and end of
  • 00:49:53
    conversation
  • 00:50:55
    [Music]
  • 00:52:33
    you have a person language on your
  • 00:52:36
    reading list
  • 00:54:06
    yeah well I was flicking through my copy
  • 00:54:09
    of it again the other day and realizing
  • 00:54:11
    how useful it could have been had I
  • 00:54:12
    actually paid more attention to it at
  • 00:54:14
    the time yeah yeah it's true yeah no I
  • 00:54:36
    agree with you about the state of theory
  • 00:54:38
    in in architectural education no it
  • 00:54:40
    wasn't until after certainly after
  • 00:54:42
    undergraduate and well into sort of post
  • 00:54:45
    graduate that I actually got properly
  • 00:54:47
    into theory and start to think really
  • 00:54:49
    about why it is that we're building the
  • 00:54:50
    things that we're building but again
  • 00:54:54
    going back to the contemporary state of
  • 00:54:55
    affairs for a second if we've been
  • 00:54:58
    through obviously in the eight seventies
  • 00:55:00
    and eighties the post modernist reaction
  • 00:55:02
    to modernism and then it's F things are
  • 00:55:07
    sort of reverted and then just sort
  • 00:55:08
    Rundle along since then and now there's
  • 00:55:12
    this new conversation with the
  • 00:55:14
    government's new building beautiful
  • 00:55:15
    Commission and appointing Sir Roger
  • 00:55:17
    Scruton and to lead a commission what
  • 00:55:21
    are your thoughts on how that might play
  • 00:55:24
    out and how how the architectural
  • 00:55:26
    profession can react to it or engage
  • 00:55:29
    with it or what what direction should
  • 00:55:32
    the conversation be going in in terms of
  • 00:55:34
    how architectural theory and practice
  • 00:55:36
    developed from here
  • 00:56:37
    do you think there's an inn there's a
  • 00:56:39
    social sensitivity because of what
  • 00:56:41
    happened in the 80s with Prince Charles
  • 00:56:42
    and all that kind of thing there's
  • 00:56:43
    there's almost the profession got burned
  • 00:56:46
    recently and it doesn't want to get
  • 00:56:48
    burned again maybe
  • 00:58:25
    yeah
  • 01:00:33
    yeah I mean it's interesting you see I
  • 01:00:35
    think you're right that always be people
  • 01:00:37
    who enjoy just annoying let you say the
  • 01:00:40
    Puritans or the critics and you see the
  • 01:00:42
    house for Essex and child Holland the
  • 01:00:44
    Grace and Perea strikes me as a
  • 01:00:46
    prominent recent example of that of
  • 01:00:48
    going so completely the opposite way and
  • 01:00:51
    so outrageous just for the sake of it
  • 01:00:54
    effectively
  • 01:03:40
    yeah with that perhaps a difference
  • 01:03:44
    between so early modernism and late late
  • 01:03:46
    modernism overlook of contemporary
  • 01:03:47
    modernism in the context is now becoming
  • 01:03:50
    more important that people are making
  • 01:03:51
    reference even if they're perpetuating
  • 01:03:53
    the same yeah
  • 01:05:50
    yeah we mentioned that in your book
  • 01:05:53
    don't you mean you talk about the sort
  • 01:05:54
    of how most things that get built our
  • 01:05:57
    pretty average or not very good yeah
  • 01:06:00
    which is which would make sense less you
  • 01:06:02
    assume a normal distribution of
  • 01:06:04
    architectural ability say then most
  • 01:06:06
    things are going to be average but how
  • 01:06:09
    do we so the the what's relevant to most
  • 01:06:12
    people is that's or bulk of average
  • 01:06:15
    design like and yes you're right you and
  • 01:06:17
    I and the architect profession sees a
  • 01:06:19
    lot of media coverage of all the high
  • 01:06:21
    profile buildings they're really good
  • 01:06:22
    top quality ones but how do we bring up
  • 01:06:25
    the general level of quality of
  • 01:06:27
    everything else of all the ones that are
  • 01:06:28
    less good or average how does that
  • 01:06:32
    develop
  • 01:11:21
    [Music]
  • 01:11:23
    if you should you say the atoms have
  • 01:11:27
    been suggested that non architects might
  • 01:11:29
    understand architect's idea is better if
  • 01:11:31
    they heard the story behind them and
  • 01:11:33
    understood the kind of world the
  • 01:11:34
    designers were trying to create in
  • 01:11:36
    literary terms rather than through an
  • 01:11:38
    exhibition of drawings and sophisticated
  • 01:11:40
    animations
  • 01:11:51
    well do you think technology has a role
  • 01:11:53
    plan that with the rise of VR and 3d and
  • 01:11:56
    that kind of thing mm-hmm but do we need
  • 01:12:00
    to do we need to sort of give people out
  • 01:12:02
    more access to that kind of thing
  • 01:13:50
    yeah well it's interesting that there
  • 01:13:53
    you focus on that particularly British
  • 01:13:55
    idea of an idea of conservation and of
  • 01:13:58
    architectural history and one of the
  • 01:14:00
    things that the Housing Minister said
  • 01:14:02
    recently that struck me as interesting
  • 01:14:03
    was he wants to wants architects to
  • 01:14:05
    create the conservation areas of the
  • 01:14:07
    future and I sort of think well can you
  • 01:14:10
    think of any developments that might
  • 01:14:12
    meet that like say our catering came in
  • 01:14:15
    or something will that in 100 years time
  • 01:14:16
    will there be someone scanning that and
  • 01:14:19
    putting a two-star listing on it or
  • 01:14:21
    anything like that and what is it that
  • 01:14:22
    will make a conservation area of the
  • 01:14:24
    future
  • 01:17:43
    yeah I think that's an interesting point
  • 01:17:46
    and I mean I should think about the same
  • 01:17:48
    thing with the old Behrman library and
  • 01:17:51
    that they have that perhaps the more
  • 01:17:54
    outrageous the building is the more
  • 01:17:56
    people know about it and the more
  • 01:17:58
    conversation there is but then you get
  • 01:17:59
    this little polarization between people
  • 01:18:01
    who really love it despite how it looks
  • 01:18:03
    or maybe they particularly like the way
  • 01:18:05
    that it does look and then everyone else
  • 01:18:07
    who really hates it but still likes it
  • 01:18:09
    as a community asset
  • 01:18:19
    I think that's I mean we're talking now
  • 01:18:51
    about the again the more prominent
  • 01:18:53
    landmark kind of buildings but on a more
  • 01:18:55
    sort of local level like I think what
  • 01:18:58
    the Housing Minister means is sort of
  • 01:18:59
    the the conservation areas of nice
  • 01:19:02
    villages and or like nice Georgian town
  • 01:19:05
    scapes or something like the Kensington
  • 01:19:07
    or Chelsea or Cotswolds Village or
  • 01:19:09
    somewhere that people has think has a
  • 01:19:11
    general architectural value that is
  • 01:19:13
    worth preserving I'm retaining the
  • 01:19:16
    quality or and how do you get that on a
  • 01:19:18
    on a more urban level you know and the
  • 01:19:21
    whole way rather than as an individual
  • 01:19:22
    building that maybe it does have a look
  • 01:19:24
    into that
  • 01:20:42
    yeah I think hang on to again one of
  • 01:20:46
    your quotes about leading into style
  • 01:20:48
    again you talk you say whole divisions
  • 01:20:52
    of architectural style have never been
  • 01:20:54
    through a process of intelligent
  • 01:20:55
    criticism or debate the awkward high
  • 01:20:57
    Victorian provincial classical and the
  • 01:20:59
    cheap mid twentieth century almost Judah
  • 01:21:01
    are firmly in that category it is not
  • 01:21:04
    surprising therefore that the results
  • 01:21:05
    are not very good indeed the buildings
  • 01:21:07
    are clumsy incompetent and competently
  • 01:21:09
    derivative and badly judged and do you
  • 01:21:11
    think in terms of again that's what the
  • 01:21:14
    need for a theoretical or critical
  • 01:21:16
    debate about architecture is that true
  • 01:21:19
    of current architecture that because
  • 01:21:21
    we're not maybe not having that
  • 01:21:22
    conversation
  • 01:21:23
    [Music]
  • 01:23:22
    the thing that appeals does appeal to
  • 01:23:24
    the British some sense of history or
  • 01:23:26
    almost an idealizing of the medieval and
  • 01:23:28
    this kind of thing yeah
  • 01:25:20
    well it's it's sort of the especially
  • 01:25:23
    the contemporary iterations the closest
  • 01:25:25
    thing I can really think up to a pattern
  • 01:25:26
    book in the old sense of where you have
  • 01:25:28
    a set layout or a set set of details and
  • 01:25:31
    kind of things and any any vaguely
  • 01:25:33
    competent contractor I couldn't put it
  • 01:25:34
    together exactly yeah
  • 01:27:32
    yeah that's incredible don't let them
  • 01:27:50
    hear you say that yeah but how do we
  • 01:28:10
    translate or first of all should we
  • 01:28:12
    translate that kind of that sense of the
  • 01:28:15
    not sense of the bucolic but a more of a
  • 01:28:19
    connection to the land if you want to
  • 01:28:20
    put it simply how can you or should you
  • 01:28:23
    translate in that into a more urban
  • 01:28:25
    context in mass housing schemes these
  • 01:28:27
    days and and where's the value that it
  • 01:28:30
    can be complete it can be extracted and
  • 01:28:32
    put into contemporary housing schemes
  • 01:28:35
    and where should we sort of move on from
  • 01:28:37
    that
  • 01:29:41
    yeah well I think yeah that's true I
  • 01:29:59
    think there's perhaps an idea that
  • 01:30:01
    certainly in this in the new commission
  • 01:30:04
    that the government's launched that if
  • 01:30:05
    you make people really like the
  • 01:30:07
    buildings that are proposed that they
  • 01:30:09
    are beautiful then they'll be sort of
  • 01:30:13
    magically gets sale free planning and
  • 01:30:16
    then the suddenly will be able to throw
  • 01:30:17
    three hundred thousand but maybe that's
  • 01:30:18
    a fact but I'm struggling to see how
  • 01:30:21
    much that has a factor in how much it is
  • 01:30:23
    just a very minor part of the equation
  • 01:31:09
    yeah well it's one of the points that
  • 01:31:13
    Paul Finch made at one of the events the
  • 01:31:15
    other day about this was that the
  • 01:31:17
    collapse in local authority building has
  • 01:31:20
    been the from his point of view was the
  • 01:31:22
    predominant factor and the collapse of
  • 01:31:24
    house building generally and and that
  • 01:31:27
    sort of got me thinking what's the
  • 01:31:29
    appropriate role of the state either at
  • 01:31:32
    a national level or at a local authority
  • 01:31:33
    level in terms of what gets built and
  • 01:31:35
    what it looks like
  • 01:33:03
    well it's it's if yeah I find it strange
  • 01:33:08
    that it sort of in any other market say
  • 01:33:10
    you you have high quality products and
  • 01:33:12
    low quality products and people choose
  • 01:33:14
    them based on their preferences and on
  • 01:33:15
    the quality and that just doesn't seem
  • 01:33:17
    to exist in housing that there's no
  • 01:33:18
    there's no premium for a high quality
  • 01:33:21
    house it's like it's all entirely based
  • 01:33:23
    on location in size and demand
  • 01:33:25
    effectively and there's none there for
  • 01:33:28
    you
  • 01:35:03
    [Music]
  • 01:35:19
    yeah I think the the the idea the the
  • 01:35:24
    design build contracts for example and
  • 01:35:27
    the need for value engineering is
  • 01:35:29
    degrading the quality of architecture I
  • 01:35:30
    think there's general agreement on that
  • 01:35:32
    and why if I can take it sort of back
  • 01:35:34
    100 200 years why when you had
  • 01:35:38
    entrepreneurs building large Victorian
  • 01:35:41
    or Georgian estates out in the across
  • 01:35:43
    the fields of expanding London what was
  • 01:35:46
    it that made them make the buildings the
  • 01:35:48
    level of quality they are and not even
  • 01:35:50
    cheaper and
  • 01:37:57
    well I think that there's this I suspect
  • 01:38:00
    general agreement that the building
  • 01:38:02
    regulations are overall a good thing and
  • 01:38:04
    maybe there are this sort of a maximum
  • 01:38:07
    set of some maximum limit of complexity
  • 01:38:09
    that maybe you need to settle them for
  • 01:38:10
    practical reasons but I'm some more
  • 01:38:12
    interested in what level should there be
  • 01:38:14
    a design check or design quality
  • 01:38:17
    standard set should that be within the
  • 01:38:19
    building regulations or should it be a
  • 01:38:21
    planning level done by local authorities
  • 01:38:24
    or dictated by local authorities or
  • 01:38:25
    should it be advised to local
  • 01:38:28
    authorities by said local design boards
  • 01:38:30
    at what point and to what degree should
  • 01:38:33
    the the state of a local authority have
  • 01:38:35
    an input into what is designed what it
  • 01:38:38
    looks like what it's sort of style it is
  • 01:38:40
    what what the design quality is judged
  • 01:38:43
    against
  • 01:40:02
    yeah it is it possible to put a
  • 01:40:35
    sufficient degree of design good design
  • 01:40:39
    guidelines into sort of almost
  • 01:40:41
    regulations or to light a level for
  • 01:40:44
    design design guides like the London
  • 01:40:46
    design guides that bureaucrats or local
  • 01:40:49
    authorities can understand and implement
  • 01:40:51
    rather than having
  • 01:41:27
    but what do you think do you think the
  • 01:41:30
    sort of the the legislative or
  • 01:41:32
    regulatory level is the appropriate
  • 01:41:34
    level for that to happen though because
  • 01:41:35
    obviously my instinctive reaction to a
  • 01:41:38
    document or a set of sort of bureaucrats
  • 01:41:41
    saying you have to design us this way is
  • 01:41:43
    who are you to tell me how I have to
  • 01:41:44
    design things yeah but so should it
  • 01:41:48
    happen
  • 01:42:39
    well they will is yeah well is there is
  • 01:42:45
    it the answer therefore perhaps more
  • 01:42:47
    within architectural education itself
  • 01:42:49
    that if you should have changed the
  • 01:42:51
    philosophy of architectural education to
  • 01:42:53
    make to make architects not want to go
  • 01:42:56
    out and be the big egotistical person
  • 01:42:58
    putting a concrete block in the middle
  • 01:43:00
    of nowhere that that's actually a more
  • 01:43:02
    and a more sustainable I guess way of of
  • 01:43:07
    changing the problem of fixing the
  • 01:43:09
    problem
  • 01:44:41
    [Music]
  • 01:44:52
    where's the horror come from why is
  • 01:44:54
    there such a revulsion even the mention
  • 01:44:56
    of possibility that you might learn
  • 01:44:58
    something from history
  • 01:46:08
    was that maybe where the answer lies in
  • 01:46:11
    making the RBA guidelines so I'm curious
  • 01:46:17
    about this about the general the general
  • 01:46:19
    skepticism that people will have towards
  • 01:46:22
    the RBA it's look
  • 01:46:43
    yeah I've been struck as well like
  • 01:46:46
    reading some of the slightly older older
  • 01:46:48
    books on theory doing part three I've
  • 01:46:52
    been struck by the the lack of clock of
  • 01:46:54
    works as in almost any existence at all
  • 01:46:57
    anymore in any projects maybe on the
  • 01:46:59
    largest ones but well that's because
  • 01:47:41
    it's a program about stories isn't it's
  • 01:47:43
    about people it's designed for the
  • 01:47:45
    viewer who's dreaming about building
  • 01:47:47
    their own house and stuff okay
  • 01:47:59
    ya know well the other thing that struck
  • 01:48:05
    me about Grand Designs is that it's it's
  • 01:48:07
    the primary gateway by which most people
  • 01:48:10
    in the country engage with architecture
  • 01:48:12
    probably because it's what channel 4 is
  • 01:48:14
    most popular I think most popular
  • 01:48:16
    program what certainly one of its most
  • 01:48:17
    popular programs and therefore what it
  • 01:48:19
    the way that it's presented affects the
  • 01:48:22
    way people perceive architecture and
  • 01:48:23
    there's almost this first of all this
  • 01:48:25
    binary set of all architecture is for
  • 01:48:28
    rich people building houses in the
  • 01:48:29
    countryside and having a child while
  • 01:48:31
    doing it and going over budget and
  • 01:48:32
    coming through in the end
  • 01:48:34
    yeah but it's very an obviously plays
  • 01:48:37
    into the story in that sense but it's
  • 01:48:39
    very there's no real criticism about the
  • 01:48:43
    actual architecture itself like I was
  • 01:48:44
    thinking I was I was missing I mean I I
  • 01:49:12
    think about programs like by Jonathan
  • 01:49:13
    Meade's for example and that kind of
  • 01:49:15
    level of deep criticism of architecture
  • 01:49:18
    is it is very rare but I think even the
  • 01:49:20
    fact that that existed at the time was
  • 01:49:22
    something and now nothing like that
  • 01:49:24
    exists really
  • 01:49:43
    [Music]
  • 01:50:06
    yeah well that's probably true that it
  • 01:50:09
    isn't interesting or important to the
  • 01:50:10
    kinds of people who want to watch the
  • 01:50:12
    kind of program that Grand Designs is
  • 01:50:13
    but then but then I remember the culture
  • 01:50:16
    show and BBC two used to do segments
  • 01:50:18
    about architecture like about particular
  • 01:50:21
    buildings or again but Brea has that has
  • 01:50:53
    to has there ever been a proper public
  • 01:50:54
    conversation about architecture that
  • 01:50:56
    wasn't was this was it a prominent yeah
  • 01:51:02
    but I wonder when the Gothic Revival was
  • 01:51:05
    starting up was there a prominent public
  • 01:51:07
    conversation about about it and about it
  • 01:51:10
    going on
  • 01:51:55
    now yeah I keep an eye on the spectator
  • 01:51:58
    list because you're like music and
  • 01:51:59
    cinema on what's gonna take an
  • 01:52:00
    architecture is never there anymore
  • 01:52:02
    instance doesn't exist but why is that
  • 01:52:20
    wise why's it become like that what's
  • 01:52:23
    what happened yeah well it seems strange
  • 01:52:42
    to me because architecture is the one
  • 01:52:44
    art if you want to call it that then you
  • 01:52:46
    can't avoid no one can avoid it at all
  • 01:52:48
    like you can't choose you can choose to
  • 01:52:50
    go and see a film you can choose to go
  • 01:52:51
    see a play you can't choose to not see a
  • 01:52:53
    building when you're walking past it so
  • 01:52:55
    it's I mean mayor's to do the timing or
  • 01:52:58
    the nature of it or the fact that it's
  • 01:52:59
    difficult to define but it's does seem
  • 01:53:02
    very strange to me that there isn't that
  • 01:53:03
    conversation
  • 01:53:12
    mmm
  • 01:53:13
    boxers need to be noisier generally in
  • 01:53:16
    public perhaps yes right
  • 01:53:22
    well what cool is a day in that case
  • 01:53:24
    thank you very much Jen for joining us
  • 01:53:25
    and this conversation will continue I'm
  • 01:53:28
    sure thank you
  • 01:53:41
    you
Tags
  • architecture
  • Gothic Revival
  • Neo-Gothic
  • modernism
  • philosophy
  • politics
  • architect education
  • form follows function
  • design quality
  • architect role